5 Naval Own Goals - Stop Helping! You're only making it worse!
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- Опубліковано 1 чер 2024
- Today we look at 5 times a captain or admiral really should've jsut stayed at home, as voted on by the fine folks over on Patreon!
00:00:00 - Intro
00:00:34 - Why this list?
00:01:30 - Mary Rose
00:09:01 - French naval assitance for the American War of Independence
00:16:16 - Dardenelles Expedition... 1807 Edition
00:32:50 - MV Spreevald
00:37:29 - Mogami gets a Pentakill!
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
Merry Christmas!
EDIT: Oops t's a Q&A thread, er, Merry Christmas?
Historically the British Pacific Fleet didn't arrive until late 1944 after the major fleet battles had already taken place. If the BPF has arrived early enough to be able to partake in the liberation of the Philippines, how do you think it would have been deployed/ utilised in the allied naval formations for the Leyte gulf campaign?
I know some ships had dogs or cats as mascots but what are some more unusual ships mascots like I've heard mention of a British submarine that had a reindeer aboard?
If the High Seas Fleet would have mutinied en route to internment at Scapa Flow and went instead to Den Helder, would the Dutch be able to keep 175K tons per Washington Treaty? What warships would you modernize for the NEI fleet and why?
Merry Christmas Drachinifel, i'm not sure if you've covered this topic in a drydock episode, but what about pre-dreadnoughts that already had design elements that could have been groundbreaking towards the dreadnought, although the final step was essentially missing? I'm asking about the SMS Wörth, which had three twin turrets capable of firing on both sides. However, the different calibre lengths of the middle turret and the presence of larger than 6-inch medium artillery make it impossible to qualify the ship as a dreadnought. Have you already had an episode on such 'you were so close, but unfortunately, the shot missed' designs? If so, please tell me where I can find it; otherwise, it might be an interesting topic for a future episode. Best regards.
Considering Mogami had hit Imperial Japanese ARMY transports. Does it really count as friendly fire?
A fair question. The IJN might have actually considered that a valid target.
Asking the real questions!
"Captain, those ships have the rising sun ensign!"
_"Oh shit cease fire, I said c-"_
"Wait sir on closer inspection the sun in the flags are centered"
_"Ah well then. You may continue to fire at will"_
Probably got a commendation to be honest, knowing the state of affairs between Imperial Japanese services at the time 😂
Excellent point.
So glad you included Mogami on this list. It’s one of the greatest own goals in naval history. So great in fact that every time I play the Mogami in World of Warships I make it a point to torpedo at least one of my teammates. I’m all for historical accuracy in gaming.
*lol*
I bet your teammates always make sure you DON'T play the Mogami.
What a dedication to authentic reenactment!
Pink ships in WoW playerlist are beautiful 💘
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IJA: "Hey! You torpedoed five of our own ships!"
IJN: "Wonderfull! Now we know those torpedoes damaged the enemy!"
If they were punished for it by the higher ups in the IJN, it wouldn't be for shooting IJA vessels, it would be for doing it accidentally rather than intentionally, and for getting caught.
Better yet: "Wonderful! Now we know for sure our torpedoes WORK!"
"That one time the IJA got sunk by friendly fire from the IJN" Was though, though?
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The IJA & IJN regarded each other as enemies and far more dangerous than the infantile Americans. Cooperation with each other took a backseat to backstabbing. Admiral Yamamoto was in constant danger of being assassinated by the Japanese Army and had to hide out somewhere safe--the war zones in the Pacific.
Mogami:
Fires at USS Houston.
Misses
Sinks IJA transports
IJN: "task successfully failed.
"Task successfully failed." (Beat. Crickets chirp, a tumbleweed rolls by. Some passing crows call us idiots.) "... wut."
We all know the real enemy of any Navy, is the Army.
Mogami did hit Houston plenty of times with her guns, though.
“Houston, we have a problem, Mogami has just launched torpedoes. Ummm, cancel that. The Japanese Army Transports have a problem.”
oooooooooooo
The Japanese navy wrecked its own fleet while blaming phantom Dutch torpedo boats. It seems by sinking the Kamchatka, the IJN inherited its curse.
Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
The captain of the Mogami should have had a medal sent to its captain from the US Navy.
Arashi (or whatever destroyer that was chasing Nautilus at Midway) should’ve received the Presidential Unit Citation.
@@ph89787 And one to the US submarine that lured it.
@@fearthehoneybadger Nautilus did get the Presidential Unit Citation.
@@ph89787There’s actually some question about whether or not that actually was the Arashi. Some historians have pointed out that Arashi was the flagship of the escorting destroyer division, and it would have been strange for her to go after Nautilus instead of sending one of her charges to do it
@@sirboomsalot4902 that’s what the brackets are for.
I would count the mk14 torpedo as an 'own goal' considering how little threat it posed to the Japanese, and how much threat it posed to the US navy subs carrying it.
At this point mk14 is just beating a dead horse because mk14 has a full documentary in and a dozen reference in this channel
It got fixed later and its early failures lulled the IJN in a false sense of security.It was a very dire scandal,but a complete own goal it wasn't.
@@naamadossantossilva4736 The most decorated submarine in the US Navy was destroyed when its own mk14s turned around on her. They deserve to be ridiculed till the sea dries.
I'll watch the torpedo documentary, and maybe it has this? The total losses to the U.S. military from torpedo malfeasance? Those losses are enormous, because the total has to count the subsequent damage done by each of the IJN ships and aircraft that kept going, thanks to the faulty torpedos. Isn't that more than the total losses in some of the incidents that Drach selects for this video? Or other U.S.losses from mistakes, like the Taffy task force being by itself, or the early battles of Savo Island. Those mistakes were in the heat of battle, the fog of war, which can't be said of the officials who sent sailors and airmen out with those faulty torpedos, lying that all was well.
There ought to be a remembrence marker to the U.S. losses from negligence [that was repeated, pointed out, and made clear by the commanders whose men (and women, if they were bombed at a base) were dying] placed in a hallway or on the grounds of the Pentagon, to acknowledge some accountability. Perhaps also as deterence, if, with some institutional courage, names might be included of those responsible. Or, at the least recognize the names of those who finally showed some courage to fix it, which would at least be admitting that it needed fixing, and also while recognizing the bravery of those who died going forth for their country.
@@supremecaffeine2633 By "they," I presume that you are talking about the US navy ordnance department that designed the torpedoes and gave them an equally defective detonator invented by an officer in the ordnance department itself, and then refused to test the damned things and claiming that any and all misfires and and nonexploding hits were due to malpractise by poorly trained crews.
Actually the torpedo itself wasn't a failure. This was proven when a group of torpedo sailors resolved to tinker with them to try to make them work when they couldn't get replacements, and by adjusting a few parts and replace the detonators with older ones they found, achieved some extremely good test firings.
So, it was all on the ordnance department that refused to admit to being less than perfect in it's handling of new torpedoes and detonators. And if I remember what I have been taught correctly (not sure about it), things got underway and the faults were corrected when Halsey and the pacific commander of submarines blew a fuse in anger and threatened al kinds of things towards both the ordnance department itself and even the combined chief's of staff in the navy.
Five torpedos hit out of six fired is a..pretty impressive score for sure.
All on different ships, no less.
I-19 also scored hits with 5 of 6 torpedoes in a spread, getting three hits on USS Wasp, and one each on USS North Carolina and O'Brien, with the Wasp and O'Brien later sinking.
@@torgothegrey3567 Thats only three different targets hit as opposed to Mogami's five though.
Especially as they were not even aiming at them!
@@praevasc4299 Or _were_ they? These were HITS on multiple targets. You don't hit something by mistake and jettison them. Calculated firing solutions on moving targets had been given to the torpedo steering control.
My pick would be the 1942 Naval Battle of Guadalcanal where the USS San Francisco joined the IJN in a game of who can put the most shells in the USS Atlanta.
Don't forget the 8" hits on the San Francisco (hello Portland). Come to San Francisco with a tape measure and you can still find them at Lands End.
Mass confusion at night was a recurring theme of that whole campaign--e.g., the Battle of Cape Esperance the previous month, with Admiral Goto convinced his ships were being fired at by other Japanese ships, while Admiral Scott was equally convinced that his ships were firing at other American ships, and nobody really had a solid idea of what the hell was going on before it was all over except possibly the crew of USS _Duncan,_ who managed to get shot up by both sides for their trouble.
how about the wonderful picket ship work done at the battle of savo island?
@@davidlewis5312 Ouch!
On one hand, I think the Great Russian Binocular-hurling Expedition should be on this list. On the other hand, that whole thing was so bad it was more like somehow scoring a dozen own goals in a game of tennis.
It has already been WELL covered by Drach already in several videos, both the entire expedition and its most infamous torpedo boat spotter.
I can see why he didn't do a "in fifth place, the Kamchatka...in fourth place, the Kamchatka...in third place, just for a change, we have the Kamchatka..." thing. However, if they had actually managed to antagonize the British into open conflict, it might have made this list at least once regardless of the other videos on it.
Probabl6 deserved honorable mention, at least...
@@alexanderflack566 pissing off the stronger but uninvolved ally of whom they're fighting seems to be a Russian trait.
Are we talking about Rozhestvensky's fleet, the one that struggled halfway round the world, almost getting into a fight with the British Navy, only to get shot to pieces by Togo's fleet at Tsushima? The Fleet That Had To Die?
Royal Navy: do not overload a warship, got it.
Swedish Navy: Vad? Vi kan inte höra dig här Vasa. (What? We can’t hear you here at the Vasa)
You're missing a preposition before "Vasa", it should be "Vad? Vi kan inte höra er [to make it plural] här på Vasa"
”Vasa” du?
To be fair, the Vasa wasn't overloaded, just built way too tall and narrow.
@@KromaatikseJep, one could argue that there should have been much heavier ballast.
Vasa would have been a formidable opponent with her original one deck and the 24-pounders on it.
Ironically, though, if they'd managed to convince Gustavus Adolphus to drop his insistence on a second gun deck, she'd have probably had a distinguished career, been retired and broken up, and we'd hardly know about her.
@ 9:01 I had an acquaintance from a off road motoring group ( we were in the US of A) in the mid 2000's who was from England, and I had the occasion to ask him what he thought of our 4th of July holiday, to which, he replied "It's just another day when the French betrayed us"
I was reminded of the execution of Admiral John Byng, which is perhaps not meeting the definition of an 'own goal' but resulted in the famous Voltaire quote "pour encourager les autres".
I loled when I read this. The accuracy is spot on (from a particularly British pov).
“Disguised yourself as the enemy so efficiently your own U-boat torpedoed you” is the most German Navy thing I’ve ever heard.
Mogami also contributed to the sinking of her sister ship, Mikuma, during the Battle of Midway. She collided with Mikuma, while trying to avoid an American submarine. The damage slowed the pair of cruisers, and American dive bombers finished the Mikuma, as well as heavily damaging Mogami.
She also got bullied by Enterprise twice. Once at Midway when some of her Dauntlesses attacked her along with sinking Mikuma. 2 and a half years later at Leyte Gulf, Mogami was part of the Southern Force when Helldivers from Enterprise and Franklin attacked them. Along with Fuso and Yamashiro.
That one was pretty much Mikuma's fault for turning the wrong way.
That one was on Mikuma.
Thats what they want you to believe:D@@bkjeong4302
The Mogami's torpedo officer realized it was a bad idea to have tons of explosives and pure oxygen on deck and jettisoned them over the side. The ̶M̶o̶g̶a̶m̶i̶ ̶ Mikuma chose not to do so with obvious results.
Japanese Imperial Army Transport Ships: "You missed and hit friendlies!"
Japanese Navy Ship Mogami: "...Did we though? Really?"
The Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron's voyage to the Pacific scored own goal, several dozen fouls and injuries, hit several members of the audience, and scored a touchdown in an American Football game somehow. Thanks for the video.
And that was just Kamchatka....
It should be a Safety in American Football, getting tackled in your own end zone and giving your opponent 2 points. (Yes I know there's other ways to give up a safety.)
@@Thirdbase9is it a safety if you get tackled in your own endzone by your own player? because i think thats what actually happened there lol
@@GearGuardianGaming yes, and that has happened.
@@Thirdbase9 Sorry, I'm not too familiar with American "football," but is it a safety (or should it be) if you tackle a _spectator_ in your own end zone (or anywhere else, for that matter)?
Drach publishes so much content, I can barely keep up! And to think the total time spent working on them is probably 10x greater than the content's run-time ....its amazing he has the time! He is a machine.
Drachinifel once said that he works more now than when he was an engineer. But guess what, he likes it more 😉😂. But we will never praised the work of Drachinifel and the patience of Mrs Drachinifel!
Bless him. 😎
He's like a supercomputer with this naval stuff. Tons and tons of knowledge, as wide as it is deep!
OK sorry I wanted to type we will never praise enough.. It seems everyone got it but (very bad student in English course and a too small bloody smartphone 😅)
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Ah, my favorite ship of the ABDA Command that fought the IJN: The Heavy Cruiser Mogami
Strictly speaking, it fought the IJA.
I am Dutch so it pains me to say this but.
She was more effective then the entire surface fleet of the ABDA-Command combined.
Only Ship-a-day Helfrich saves it from being "the most effective vessal of the entire ABDA-Command"
it was certainly the most successful ship in the ABDA at fighting the japanese
I would have awnsered that pompous letter with a clarification-requesting letter reading:
"WAT?"
U wot mate?
Eh?
It certainly did reveal the English character, one more disposed to bluff than action and generally happy with deceit.
Other ships lead from the front. The Mary Rose led from the bottom.
I'd nominate the Kriegsmarine's obsession of transmitting so many radio messages during the battle of the Atlantic. In case of the u-boats it meant that the British consistently knew where the enemy was and rerouted their convois to avoid them and in case of the Bismarck it told them exactly where the battleship they were looking for was, which allowed them to find and subsequently sink it.
I don't think it was entirely obvious at the time (early in the war) exactly how good British HF/DF was or was not, and it was certainly less obvious how successful the folks at Bletchley were (or even that they existed at all).
Der Rudeltaktik aka Wolfpacks depended to lots of radio messages, although the Germans did indulge i a terrible amount of radio chatter (skippers wishing each of happy birthday, tc)
honestly the navy was better than other services at handling their encryptions, if it hadn't been for the weird one size fits all use of Enigma in every service it might not have mattered.
My grandfather was a fisherman in WWII. He had his trawler pulled up on a Cornish beach, for maintenance. But a torpedo came out of the water, ran up the beach and blew it up! After the war a BRITISH sub mariner approached him in a bar and offered his apologies for the negligent discharge from his sub. No official acknowledgement, apology or compensation was ever made.
That was a different time then. Even though the sub Captain fessed up to the cock up, the guy who lost the boat probably figured that many young men had lost their lives instead of a simple boat. Water under the bridge. He may have even had a laugh!?
@@CharlesYuditskyMaybe he got insurance payout for "war damage"?
@@gregorywright4918 Possibly.
@@gregorywright4918 No you do not get compensation for enemy action in wartime (insurance companies would go bust if they didn't have claims excluding that). And as the Navy/British Government covered up the accident it never got classed as anything else.
That first picture of the Mary Rose. They had guns pointing at the crow's nest. I sincerely believe they had a sleeping on duty problem.
And they certainly knew how to take care of it.
The painting with guns pointing inside is an artistic license thing.
@@gokbay3057they did have guns that covered their own decks. They were for repelling boarders after they got onboard
@@danhammond8406 Yes, but those were smaller anti-personelle guns, not the larger ones comparable to those on the broadside as the painting depicts.
Honestly, the fact that the Mary Rose sank like that turned out to be extraordinarily helpful for understanding the English longbow. Before that, estimates of draw length and draw weight were basically guesses, and very inaccurate ones at that.
"Is our look out awake?"
"Well, he's a bit all over the place..."
31:50 When you were describing the shot, I was thinking "Holy Cow, what are they using? The Dardanelles gun?". After you confirmed it I followed up with "How the hell do you aim it? These are siege guns." The only answer I could come up with is that you aim it at fix spot and wait for the enemy to sail through your aim point. Totally useless in most naval combat, but in a constrained channel with plenty of warning - Blammo!
Duckworth's adventure in the Dardanelles is kinda wild. Having a ship more or less spontaneously combust is not exactly a good start to any mission. But my 21st century brain doesn't get the idea of sending warships all the way to the enemy capital, past some of the most defensible waters in the world, in order to wave fists in the general direction of the Ottomans in person rather than by post rather than, y'know, use all those big guns to force compliance as per Commodore Parry in Japan....but I guess that's just how things were done back then....
One was a demonstration.
One was a blatant act of war.
Bit of a difference.
Russian Second Pacific Squadron. Apparently it never gets old to sail through waters filled with “friends” (ships who will be fired upon and spark an international incident) to try to fight an enemy with a poorly sharpened knife when the opponent has a mini gun…. Oh, and Kamchatka. Just cause lol
"Gentlemen, for this operation we have a fleet of ten ships..."
[Boom]
"Nine, nine ships."
All the ships on the Dardanelle strait attack were old ships and scrapped within a year.
@@Trebor74 Honestly that makes it even less understandable. "Let's do a show of force by sending 10 *boom* 9 of our Navy's oldest ships that are on the verge of retirement"
If you're trying to be threatening, you don't send the dregs of your fleet and have them not actually engage any targets. If you're trying to be diplomatic, you don't sail a flotilla of warships into the other side's capital city harbour without permission.
The only thing that makes sense to me about this is someone wanted a big threatening show of force, and someone in the chain of command between them and Duckworth decided this would definitely start a war if they weren't extremely careful, and thus passed on the orders with so many caveats as to what the flotilla could do that we get a literal fulfillment of the order to make a show of force, while giving strict orders to not show any force and thus not start a war. Which I can see happening back in those days when communication tech was basically messages on ships, horses, or birds and thus rather dramatically slower than I'm used to.
This is going to be controversial, but the IJN attack on Pearl Harbor. They proved the effectiveness of carrier aircraft and proceeded to leave the only striking power of the Pacific Fleet as . . . it's aircraft carriers, eliminating any chance for the decisive battle between battlelines to occur in the immediate future, and having the knock on affect of sinking all those battleships in one of the few places within thousands of miles where they would be salvageable.
So: 1) you thoroughly piss off your enemy
2) You prove the only weapon they have left is in fact decisive
3) You sink their battleline where they can be repaired/salvaged.
4) You invalidate the very strategy you've been working towards for twenty years, by making it impossible for the enemy do play their part. Yet you cannot break out of that mindset yourself.
The Japanese WANTED to sink the American carriers at PH: they only didn’t because said carriers were literally not there.
PH did invalidate the IJN’s own strategy, but not because it made the Americans rely on their carriers (for one, the Kantai Kessen doctrine called for the Japanese to sink all American carriers ahead of the planned surface action anyways rather than seeing them as a nonissue; for another, the USN was still wrongly assuming battleship line engagements were important in fleet actions as late as 1944 according to doctrinal manuals, so in reality BOTH the IJN and the USN failed to realize battleship era was over until it was too late). The real issue was that the Kantai Kessen doctrine was a DEFENSIVE strategic doctrine that relied on the USN coming to attack Japan only to be defeated, but PH and the “strike south” strategy was the exact opposite of this, further causing the USN to fight defensively for the time being (when Japan needed the USN to go on the offensive) and forcing the IJN to take the fight to the enemy.
@@bkjeong4302 If that's so, it's a matter of the written doctrine not catching up to actual doctrine; the _Montanas_ were cancelled in mid 1943 while carriers were built for the rest of the war. Point is, those books, official as they may have been, didn't reflect where the USN was actually putting its resources, and green paper trumps black and white when it comes to what organizations think are important.
@@boobah5643
And the IJN suspended battleship construction following Force Z and cancelled it entirely following Midway, so by that logic the IJN realized the battleship era was over in time to stop wasting resources-which they obviously didn’t.
Even the Montanas being cancelled had more to do with the US not being able to expand the Panama Canal due to the war than with them realizing battleships were obsolete; if they had, they’d have cancelled the Iowas (given that they weren’t that far along construction by the time of PH) and probably the last two SoDaks as well.
It should also be noted both the IJN and the USN were already planning to significantly expand their carrier forces over a year before PH (the IJN with the Unryus and the USN with the Essexes), yet both still continued to waste resources on battleships at the same time.
you said it for me lol
@@boobah5643
Duckworth writing his ultimatum: 🔥🔥🔥✍️🔥🔥🔥
The pacific theatre of World War II was a three-way conflict between the Allied Powers, the Imperial Japanese Army, and the Imperial Japanese Navy.
And we really didn't defeat the IJA, did we?
Duckworth appeared to have been channelling some abstruse variant of Charlotte Bronte.
Mogami's captain (referencing the World of Warships game) - "Kraken unleashed!"
Mogami's XO: "Dude, those were ours!"
Mogami's captain: "They're Army transports."
Mogami's XO: "Kraken unleashed!"
Kraken Unleashed AND Fox in the Henhouse!
@@mitchm4992 While technically teamkilling! 🤪
Love the new intro but the old one will always be the GOAT
Well if you want own goals the Halsey's constant need to find storms with his face which did more damage to the US Navy then the Japanese in the same time has to be up there
I admit if I were Mogami, I would be proud of that pentakill since getting one in a video game in real life is more difficult than it sounds. And Mogami did it like it was nothing
I expected the epic journey of the second Pacific fleet, but I guess that one is too obvious haha
He _did_ say there was no attempt at ranking, just five stories he wanted to share. And he's shared the Voyage of the Damned. At length.
The second pacific fleet has already had a pair of videos and while not particularly effective, I think they don't qualify for this video as they neither sank each other nor set off a war with Britain.
@@tz8785 That's right. They almost did, but even failed in this task ...
Won Gyun should definitely be in a sequel. He managed to completely sabotage his own navy not once but twice: first in response to Japan's initial invasion force landing near Busan at the start of the Imjin War, and again by taking the obvious bait, hook, line, and sinker at the Battle of Chilcheollyang at the start of the subsequent Chongyu War. His ultimate doom both times was decision paralysis at the worst moments.
Was he the guy that screwed over Admiral Yi?
@@silentdrew7636 Basically, yes.
He was in the Naval Darwin Award video
Won Gyun was EVEN WORSE than you think.
To start off with: remember that time when Admiral Yi got fired and almost executed on false charges for not taking a Japanese bait (though it’s debatable if that wasn’t actually a case of the Japanese backstabbing each other)? That was Won Gyun’s doing; he deliberately sent a false report to the government to get rid of Yi for his own career advancement, and the king (who was paranoid for no good reason and just caused himself and his country an incredible amount of trouble as a result) used that as an excuse to get rid of an officer who he wrongly saw as a political threat (Yi didn’t care at all about politics-his entire adult career was spent in the military, first as a cavalry officer and then at sea).
Even before then, the moron rarely actually fought even in engagements where he was supposed to be under Yi’s command and instead wasted time fishing out dying and dead Japanese sailors and beheading them so he could lie to the government that he and not Yi was the one actually winning battles (because East Asia policy at the time was that enemy casualties were determined by counting heads, which ignores that Yi was so effective in part because he independently created a battleline doctrine that resulted in the enemy being blown up or drowning rather that cut down in boarding actions). He also killed Korean civilians and pretended they were Japanese dead, routinely got drunk on duty (especially after he took over Yi’s job as Supreme Admiral of the Three Provinces, upon which he decided to not bother running the entire Korean navy), and even brought a prostitute into his ship’s cabin (!) and into a combat deployment under Yi (!!) at one point.
The mentioning of Mogami's penta-kill in any kind of video will never not make me laugh.
Mogami also scored another own goal when she rammed the Mikuma at Midway, resulting in the damaged Mikuma being caught and sunk by US carrier planes, but that was not her fault. Mikuma made the turn wrong and went across the path of Mogami, which had executed the turn correctly.
Genuinely surprised Typhoon Cobra didn't at least rate an honourable mention.
It rated a whole video shaming Halsey.
"I know this book. Your conclusions are all wrong, Ryan. Halsey acted stupidly."
@@rackstraw I always thought Capt. Ramius was referring to that time Halsey swallowed the bait at Leyte Gulf hook, line and sinker.
@@seanbigay1042 It was...but Halsey's subsequent actions following the Battle of Cape Engano (taking the Fleet into two typhoons) were questionable at best.
@@seanbigay1042it could be both.
No mention of San Francisco sinking Atlanta? That has to be in the top five IMO.
Also, if we’re talking about self-sabotage there’s Arashi at Midway, Aoba at Cape Esperance, Nagato (and both Yamatos, but Nagato actually ended up killing her own side’s aircraft and pilots whereas the Yamatos didn’t) firing at Japanese aircraft during Philippine Sea, Kamchatka and the Second Pacific Squadron in general, Kongo at Samar (did almost none of the damage she supposedly did to Taffy 3 and helped sink Chokai), and (I still stand by this) Iowa and New Jersey getting involved during Operation Hailstone at the expense of their own side’s carriers.
Edit: Add Won Gyun in general to this, in fact he might be the worst case in history of an admiral screwing over his own navy for no good reason.
Atlanta: SAN FRANCISCO!!!!! YOU && MORON!!!!
San Francisco: I didn't know you were there.
Atlanta: SAN FRANCISCO!!! WHAT THE &^ ARE YOU DOING?!?!?
San Francisco: I got lost. I didn't know you were ahead of me.
Atlanta: USE YOUR RADAR!!!!!!!!
@@ph89787
The sad thing is, San Francisco actually got decorated for that fiasco (even if she partly made up for it by mission-killing Hiei later in the battle). Just one example of why naval decorations and honours have little to do with a ship’s actual achievements.
Rewinding the clock a bit. Hornet’s flight to nowhere at Midway.
The real question is: did that cost the US part of its colonies and result in the toppling of a centuries-old system of government?
The Russian *3rd* Pacific Squadron, more colloquially known as the “Sink by Itself” fleet, comes to mind.
I would ask why Kamchatka isn't on this list, but you already did a rather in-depth set of videos on why that ship would belong here.
And the Kamchatka is also operating on a completely different level ... that is legendary-status neither the Mogami nor the other examples could reach.
Seeing a Swedish flag on your starting model, I was rather expecting the WASA. Being a Dane of course I lament not having that wonderful story told again. And again. And again.
Seriously, I think the only torpedo attack in history that went worse might have been HMS Trinidad's.
While defending an Arctic convoy (the aptly-numbered PQ-13) from German surface attack, she totally annihilated one Narvik-class destroyer with her guns, but also decided to launch torpedoes at it.
Of the three torpedoes in the mount, all were fired - two froze solid in their tubes and the third got away, ran a perfect semi-circle (after the gyro froze) and struck the Trinidad's side abreast the bridge and TT bank (which fell off the ship from the damage). The transmitting station deep in the hull was flooded with fuel oil and everyone in there perished.
Although she made it to Murmansk and was patched up, on her return journey, Trinidad's scab was blown in by a near-miss from a Ju-88's bombs, resulting in yet more flooding from her own self-inflicted torpedo wound, and her subsequent abandonment and loss.
Way to use torpedoes.
I can't hear about the USS Houston without thinking of William Holden's character, Commander Shears, of the USS Houston.
Whoa, you blew my mind with the idea that the Migami hit the transports on purpose. Surely it was unintended as she was firing at the Houston. However, once the damage was done, one wonders if the IJN didn't quietly hand out some medals to the men who had struck such a major blow against the true enemy, the IJA.
On the geography of Constantiniye(İstanbul today); Kadıköy is not an island, it is the main settlement on the Asian side of the city. Could be concidered a summer dwelling for the time. Not an island.
The reports of the time state Duckworth asked for a meeting on an island and the Ottomans replied they would meet "at Kadikioi, on the Asiatic side", so I assumed it would be an island. Happy to be corrected :)
@@Drachinifel Kadıköy might be better known to you by it's Ancient name as Chalcedon.
@@Drachinifel We may count Kadıköy (Kadikoi or Khalkedon) as a sort of island relative to Konstantiniye since the only possible means of transportation to and from is by boat. Happy to be of assistance.
16:15 One would think the Americans appreciate French support during the Revolutionary War. But the appreciation was only quasi.
We (USA) would not be here without the French but, for Americans, business is business. In our own way we were true to Lafayette.
That comment is definitely… modish
@@robertmatch6550 we were as true to Lafayette as the French people would be in the end.
We appreciate what was done for us and have returned the favor on several occasions.
We may not always agree, but the bond will always be there.
As for the American Revolution, my US History teacher was a British expat - when we got up to July 4th, 1776, her exact words, spoken both with a smile and the rising voice of feigned anger, were...
"And then you colonialists had the temerity to rebel against the KING!!!"
That was in the '77-'78 school year. Damn, I miss that woman's humor and point of view!
So, when the enemy isn't quite cutting the mustard. a bright spark calls out "hold my grog" then proceeds and attempt to do in their own ship.
Admiral Halsey sailing into TWO typhoons, the sinking of HMS Victoria after a badly executed turn, and the Battle of May Island are in my top 5 fails list.
One cant imagine the size of those shots flying through the air, truely terrifying!
It's pretty impressive they didn't just go through the hulls, probably they had enough mass the vessels were just moved out of the way.
How big is an 800-pound stone shot anyway? (Caliber-wise, I mean.)
@@seanbigay1042 give or take,
2500 kilograms per cubic meter (kg/m³).
So more than a fifth but less than a quarter.
@@jeebuskThat works out to ~42.3 cm, or a bit out 16.5 inches.
@@jamesharding3459 i remember watching documentaries about the siege(s) of Constantinople, the technology essentially defeated the walls that stood for hundreds of years.
Probably there was plenty of ammunition left over, it's interesting to think the weapons would still be around hundreds of years later tho.
Hiting a moving target seems like that would be more difficult, I definitely have more questions than answers here 😅
I accidentally repllcated Mogami once or twice in WoWs back in the old days. The rearwards firing arc can make your brain shut off.
does the battle of the red cliff during three kingdom era ancient china count?
going by memory alone, some general(cao cao's side) had the bright idea of chaining their ships together to (iirc) shelter from heavy wind, despite being told about being sitting ducks if the decision goes through, only to have the opposing side(liu bei + sun quan alliance) exploit the mistake and send fire ships drifting along the wind, right into the fleet, torching the lot of them, ultimately costing them the battle.
iirc this is also the battle where kong ming tricked boat loads of ready made arrows from cao cao's forces by sailing hay laden boats near cao cao's fleet, taunting them to rain arrows on it
Before your inciteful (sic) report, I hadn't realized that Britain had won the war of American independence. Thanks for enlightening me!
Thanks for the upload Drach. A good rum ration is exactly what I needed to wash down the aftertaste of Christmas with the families.
The last one is not an own goal. It was just not the enemy they were aiming at, but their mortal enemy.
Spreewald (engl. Spree Forest) is an interesting and unique ecosystem in East Germany. Holiday recommendation for people who like woodlands and casual (slow) kayaking.
I also heard the Australians call the American Revolution as "The War of the Insurrection"
We're just jealous that there's was successful.
@MyPancakeMan you guys didn't even try
@@wierdalien1 I think they did, the Eureka Rebellion. It wasn't nearly as successful or wide-scale as ours, but they had a go at it.
Well not everyone can convince the French to do all their fighting for them. @@wierdalien1
@@DavisJ-ln6fw fair
Did not know “where’s Henry” was a picture finding game back in the day . Take that “where’s Waldo” the Renaissance artists had that on lock down back in the 1500’s-1600’s .
The 1st Dardenelle Expidition sounded way to familiar (The ottoman forts were in a run-down condition). That's sounds awfully familiar......
I was recently watching a documentary on the Napoleonic wars and they began talking of this incident. My first reaction was did I click on a WW1 documentary lol
Who ever said, "history never repeats itself?"
@@danasmith3288 People who don't study history?
We should be OK around here, then! :)
oooooo
@@danasmith3288 It does repeat itself, first as tragedy then as farce - Some guy named Mark
Duckworth's letter to the Sultan; Sir Humphrey Appleby approves😂
Must've happened to some other fellow at least: The section, or fragment actually, in which Admiral Duckworth's letter was read and your subsequent comment, made laugh out loud, to the point where I had to use the captions to learn about what you were saying immediatly afterwards. Oh Lord, what a way to learn and laugh so much at the same time, thank you Drach, thank you dearly, and given it's 31st already, may you have a Happy New Year!
In the words of an italian naval historian, Professor Alberto Santoni, Admiral Angelo Jachino was not used to show any proclivity in criticizing too bitterly other italian admirals: however, his reconstruction of the Battle of Lissa in his book "La campagna navale di Lissa, 1866", shows quite a number of reasons about why that battle might be considered an own goal.
I have nothing of historical value or relevant knowledge to add but I do however really want to say thanks to Drachinifel for making his videos and also to just say how much I enjoy them,, they're blumin great if you ask me 😊
Talking of own goals, I believe the Gauntlet of Viborg in 1790 (or more specifically the exploits of the Swedish ensign Sandel and his fireship, Postiljonen) are worth mentioning.
Briefly, both the Swedish sailing fleet and the rowing fleet had got themselves pent up in the innermost corner of the gulf of Finland. The Russian navy was blockading the exits from Viborg bay and the combined Swedish fleets had to break out by running the gauntlet straight through the russian line of battle.
After waiting a few days for an easterly wind, the Swedish battlefleet started its attempt to break out. The operation went well and the ships of the van and center were able to pass through the russian line pretty much unmolested.
Enter ensign Sandel, who was dead drunk and in command of the fireship Postiljonen. The fireship was being towed by the ship of the line Enigheten. As the story goes, Sandel called out to the captain of Enigheten: "Should I set fire to my ship?", and received the reply "Do not set fire to your ship!". Unfortunately, Sandel did not catch the first few words of the reply - and promptly set Postiljonen alight.
The fire quickly spread to Enigheten, and from Enigheten to the nearby frigate Zemire. Both ships burnt violently until they blew up with the loss of all hands.
That was only the beginning of the disaster, however. The smoke from the burning ships spread across the bay and reduced visibilty to almost nothing. This was not a problem for the russians, who had anchored their ships across the mouth of the bay. The swedes fared much worse. Three (or four, depending on source) ships of the line and two frigates ran aground and were lost. A further two ships of the line were captured in the pursuit after the breakout.
All in all a third of the Swedish sailing fleet had been lost.
(Fortunately, the rowing or "army" fleet had used another exit from the bay and came out of the battle without taking excessive losses - a week later it inflicted a decisive defeat on its Russian counterpart at the second battle of Svensksund.)
13:00 - That sure is a beautiful, surreal painting!
Wonderful exposition of the way a simple war can turn out to have horrendous ongoing consequences.
38:12 Ah that's okay. Kortenaer is written in an older archaic form of Dutch writing from the 17th century. Whenever there's an AE, it's basically AA.
Also coincidentally, the guy the ship is named after was a lieutenant-admiral who celebrated his release from captivity in a pub in such a way that he ended up being arrested despite his station.
....So basically Kortenaer should've been granted honourary British citizenship. 😉
Kamchatka: "it's my time to shine!!"
"Imperial France" refers to the empire of Napoléon Bonaparte (and sometimes Napoleon III).
The Kingdom you refer to (Bourbon Monarchy) is known as part of the "ancient régime" and is never called "Empire" by serious historians nor the french themselves.
So as a British man he chose correctly then? (I kid)
It was still an empire, but I understand why there would be a need to differentiate it from the large European empire of Napoleon. That said, “ancient regime” would seem more apt to describe the monarchy itself, not the territorial holdings of pre-revolutionary France. Perhaps something like “Royal French Empire” would be more appropriate. I had considered the term “Bourbon Empire,” but that could easily be mistaken for a reality TV show about distilleries in Kentucky.
Kind of semantic but I get it. Kind of like asking about the first winners of the tour de France.
It was the 7th panzer division by the way
One can still speak about the first french colonial empire, that mostly ends with the 7 years war
Speaking as an American: yes, we appreciate it still today (though that may be because I am a Virginian, and the Battle of the Chesapeake is our second-most-remembered naval battle after Hampton Roads). We even have a road, etc. named after Rochambeau. That said, we also consider that we DID finally repay the French for their assistance in the 1770s, specifically in 1917-1918 and in 1944-45. (Though that didn't really do anything to help their navy in either case, though... )
The DD USS Comte de Grasse existed (there was also a USS Winston Churchill)
I wonder if the Kamchatka will make an appearance?
You have to be accepted by your country to make a own goal. The camchatca is an rejected outcast following the Russian squadron
Causing your admiral to run out of binoculars is at most worth a dishonorable mention.
It is hiding from the Japanese torpedo boats. They're everywhere.
dO yOu SeE tOrPeDo BoAts!?
My engineer friend calls what happened to Mary Rose "another catastrophic improvement."
My father and 4 of his brothers were in 'exempt' trades at the start of WW2. Nonetheless all volunteered, as 'HOs', 'Hostilities Only'. One uncle survived at least 2 grim arctic convoy trips to Murmansk, in RN destroyers. My dad was trained in gunnery, and served in 5 or 6 'armed trawlers', including a spell in Alexandria, where he said he was extremely seasick inspecting the harbour defences at night, in a rowing boat armed with a small torch, looking for frogmen's bubbles.
All 5 brothers survived the war, but my Dad's ship/boat/trawler, was sunk, near Lundy, by a 'friendly' torpedo. No casualties!
I forget which ships(HMS Duncan?)/ admirals were involved, but how about the RN mediteranean fleet (in Victorian times) When steaming in two columns turned into each other resulting in a collision which sank the flagship? This was imortalised in "Kind hearts and coronets" staring Alec Guiness.
Maybe Glorious cramming the flight deck and not using its own aircaft to scout ahead for battleships might qualify?
That’s HMS Victoria, the only perpendicular wreck in the world
@@gbcb8853 the Russian monitor Rusalka rests in the same orientation
@@adam_mawz_maas thanks. Perhaps Drach could tell their stories too
@@gbcb8853just add "battleship" after perpendicular and your statement holds true.
@@gbcb8853 Thanks.
I would put the Mark 6 detonator on this list.
Thank you for these tales of the "tragically amusing". Imbibed with some stir coffee in Winter depths of cold and darkness!
Surely the American Penobscot expedition of 1779 against the British . The biggest USN defeat in their history , greater then Pearl in ships lost. Is a story the world should hear.
The only issue being that a lot of those ships were not much larger, if any, then WW2 era landing craft. In this regard, the invasion of Saipan was also greater in ships lost total then Pearl was. That said, losing 44 ships in one go was a pretty bad run for the Americans.
@@josepetersen7112 The size of the vessels are not as important as the outcome. It would be stupid to compere the Greek and Persian fleets in the battle Salamis to American Pacific vessels. With the British and Greeks it was decisive victories , that's all that counts.
Great job again Drach. Happy holidays mate.
Really enjoyed this holiday treat thanks Drach
dutch guy here, your pronunciation is quite good, if you want to perfect it, in Kortenaer, there is no J sound, "kortenahr" probably sounds more like the real thing. On Evertsen, the first E sounds more like A in "ABC", otherwise you were spot on!
Also, excellent video
EXCELLENT . . . thank you for the continued fine presentations
If you did another one of these videos I would absolutely watch it. You said there were plenty of naval own-goals and I'd absolutely love to hear more if you ever plan to do another video on these!
I was waiting for Drach to quote Sir George Carew, captain of the Mary Rose, when he yelled across to King Henry VIII: "I have the sort of knaves I cannot rule!" In other words, "My crew is a bunch of idiots!"
Henry VIII shouted back: "Nowest thee walkest in my Poulaines!", "Welcome to my life!"
Good content as always bro. Thank you.
Somewhat disagreed on the French participation on the American War of Independence. It is more of a strategic defeat, but it is not due to the French Navy as such, but mostly the decision to get involved in the first place AND both the war not going quite as well as they had hoped and the Americans turning to make nice with the Brits afterwards, too. The loss of the American Colonies did weaken the British Empire, it is just that the French got clobbered by their own Revolution.
Well, to sustain French troops etc in the US required the Navy, and most of the surrounding campaigns (taking Carribean colonies, trying to invade the UK, various fights in and around India) were either mainly or entirely naval campaigns. The cost of running the navy was a big chunk of those expenses and losses at the Saintes and various Ushants were some of the biggest ticket costs as well. Overall, the cost of the naval operations plus the navy not coming off too well from it set the fuse for the French Revolution, at least to my mind, but of course your mileage may very :)
@@Drachinifel I get your point, but I still think that the blunder is the decision to join the war in the first place, made at higher echelons of Ancien Regime, rather than anything that the French Navy did. :)
If I'd be looking for Naval Blunders in the AWI, I'd be more inclined to say letting Washington and his army escape Brooklyn or not breaking the blockade of Yorktown, which served to lose the AWI for the British.
Everyone forgets France immediately started making demands and planning to overthrow our government. The xyz affair ended any influence the Jefferson led francophiles had.
I would ask, what is the part of the RNs costs of operations of the Seven Years War in the British debt that led to the American insurrection? I believe there should have been, if not a straight parallel, at least a tentative comparison between the two sets of events.
Well done Drach, another fine year of content. 😄
Thank you, Drachinifel.
Excellent Presentation!
i always love these posts. keep them coming!!
Thanks again for an enlightening video.
wouldn't the AWI be the fourth english civil war?
or, like, the seventh?
there were a substantial number of english/english wars, i find it really hard to believe we were only on the second one in the 1770s
Going to say fourth since you've got the Interregnum (Stephen v Matilda), Wars of the Roses (Lancaster v Tudor) and The English Civil War (Charles v Parliament), which is the one most people count. This may be because the others were 'just' the nobility's powerplay getting a bit rougher than usual while the ECW was the start of the final break with absolute monarchy in England but it might just be because nobody could come up with a better name.
The two Jacobite uprisings would take the AWI to sixth but they're...I want to say too short to count but I just know someone's going to bring up the 38-minute Anglo-Zanzibar War. Perhaps 'not enough back and forth' since, iirc, both basically went 'Pretender raises army in Scotland, marches south, London finds out, Army marches north, blam, Pretender retires north at some speed and is not heard from again'. Similarly, Monmouth's Rebellion is too localised to count and the Glorious Revolution was a well-armed coup rather than a civil war since James II realised it was curtains and legged it before any serious fighting happened.
@@Yuzral all that and you didn't even count that the english civil war was actually three wars
i'd also throw in the barons' wars too, just to make things even more difficult
@@Yuzral You forgot the late medieval First Barons War, Second Barons War, plus the wonderfully named "The Anarchy".
He mentioned the Anarchy as the Interregnum, Stephen vs Matilda. Feel free to watch the Derek Jacobi "Cadfael" series of movies, since those are set during the Anarchy.
I know you covered the RCN already, but you could delve into the incidents in 1941 and 1942 that both required it to withdraw temporarily from the Battle of the Atlantic but caused it to gain its nickname the Royal Collision Navy.
The bonne hom richard's devastating salvo... against itself springs to mind.
Own goal was the Battle of Punta Gruesa. The Peruvians managed to lose their most powerful warship to shoaling while chasing a Chilean schooner.
Another own goal was the disasterous French attempted expedition against the Dutch Curacao.
Spanish armada disaster comes to mind and also the follow up equally disasterous English armada.
Also the Battle of Cartagena des Indies.
23:44 dude really sent a strongly worded letter and devoured a whole thesaurus while he was at it.
40:35 .... I believe the term is "circular firing squad" .. 😏
I stand by my assessment that the Mogami was just doing her best to COMPLETELY shut out the Allied force. Winner of the battle: IJN. Most Allied ships sunk: IJN Most Japanese ships sunk: IJN.
What happens when you target all the prizes, even if one of those prizes is supposed to be handed out to the ENEMY…
I'm not going to fault Mogami's crew. Their job was to sink ships, whether they sunk their own ships is beside the point in my view.
But the ships Mogami sank weren't their own (Imperial Japanese Navy) ships. They were Japanese Army ships!
Your account of the Mary Rose and how she sank is completely different to the yarn I was told as a boy in the cadets,where all the crew rushed to one side of the ship when leaving port to wave to their loved ones and onlookers,over-balancing,on her maiden voyage.
Royal Navy hubris or a bored sailor having a laugh at our expense, I imagine!
Either way,it seems like another good example of the oxymoron we wryly refer to as military intelligence.
the Treaty of Paris takes on a different perspective with your story of the American revolution......thx. 👍🇺🇲