I appreciate all of the comments on this one! I tried to respond to a lot of them. Based on the comments, I’d like to clarify a bit. Just because I don’t like what the JS ecosystem is turning into, frontend developers still deserve the same respect as backend. There’s some serious depth to it that takes good developers to navigate through. We are all software engineers at the end of the day, even the Rust/furry developers.
Literally, a few times the client asked me to do something in React and I managed to convince them to allow me to do it in HTML, CSS and very little JS (or TS). Not to mention the number of times WP would be sufficient for the smaller clients needs.
The backend is the kitchen: no matter how nice the restaurant looks, people come for the food. Welcome to the kitchen, Don. It's a LOT more exciting back here 🔥🔥🔥
I am not sure anybody would enjoy the web if browsers or apps just rendered JSON output. Kitchen and a pretty restaurant are both equally important, sorry.
@@adrian110288 This is isn't high school theater where everyone's contribution is equally important. In programming and the food industry, there is no business without the back of house. A taco truck doesn't need to be pretty if it serves the best tacos. Amazon was a bare-bones website well past the $100 million mark.
@@baxterdevin A taco truck still needs to have some presentation and not look like some rundown truck in order do get good business. And just because Amazons site isn’t pretty, it’s been HIGHLY measured for sales, conversions, etc which is a really important piece of front end. I may be frustrated with the JavaScript ecosystem but I’ve definitely seen front end developers turn a company around that was sinking. The backend is useless without the front end and the front end is useless without the backend in web development.
This is why our team switched to HTMX. We left all the unnecessary complexity behind and never looked back. We're 10x more productive, and our codebase is clean and maintainable. The key word here is maintainable. The code won't break next Tuesday when a new version of React is released.
I think HTMX is a great option for personal projects, but I'm worried that it'll never adopt marketability, given that it's so light and not really built to scale well as the frontend grows. HTMX definitely needs more proof that it can handle scalability without thanks getting too difficult to maintain. Maybe consider writing a detailed blog post about how your team has made it work.
@@DonTheDeveloper : Initially, we had the same scaling concerns, but after prototyping a few features, we realized that the HTMX codebase contained 60% to 70% fewer lines of code compared to React. With this finding, we set out to develop an MVP and were pleasantly surprised by how quickly we could deliver features. Additionally, our team suffers from a high turnover rate, as we work with a constantly changing workforce-50% of the team is new every 6 months due to the nature of the Consulting company we’re working with. HTMX made it easier for new team members to pick up the project. With React, we always faced challenges in delivering because it took so much effort to train new team members. With HTMX, it only took one week of training, and everyone started delivering. As for scaling in terms of the codebase, we were pleasantly surprised by how clean the code is and how easy it was to take an interface from the UX team, add HTMX attributes to it, and have it working within hours, versus coding everything from scratch as React components. In terms of scaling productivity, new recruits were delivering features within one week, compared to two months of training with React. There's also a general sense of happiness among the team from working with HTMX. Previously, with React, some team members dreaded working with it because of the large codebase in a single file. We’re talking about thousands of lines of JSX code in a single file (This is what you get from having 2 months of training). With HTMX, most of the code is just HTML, which most people can read-even if they are not developers. It's an internal financial system for a very large telecom company in the U.S. It has dynamic interactions, drag-and-drop functionality, and live notifications, just like React. I hope features like HTMX are eventually added to standard HTML, as it would make life much easier.
@@DonTheDeveloper I’m finding the opposite to be true .. which is counter intuitive The first building blocks in doing a large scale app in htmx were tedious.. and evolving a system of UI components using backend code only. But as the scope grows, it gets easier and easier to add features using mostly declarative structs in the backend, and reusable backend “components” to drive them. Because there is simply no need for the backend to ever have to convert native data structs to and from JSON, it scales effortlessly. What starts to emerge as the app grows is a simple library (of backend code) that abstracts away all the fiddly complexity Just choose a good backend stack though. You could in theory do this in node .. but it’s going to hurt. Go would be good choice. Even straight C would do a good job of it.
As a developer, I've been experimenting with programs, and I found myself enjoying working with the backend. Don't get me wrong, I like working on the frontend, but the feeling that I get when handling data is fulfuilling.There's something to connecting a database to the frontend that is pretty damn awesome! Cool video, Don. I'm excited for your next endeavor with the backend.
Thanks Rene! You should definitely keep exploring that. The software engineering world is such a wide field. There's so many paths to choose and I love that about our field.
I totally relate with your signs for needing a change. I went through the same thing in my previous career. Definitely lean into what makes you happy, challenges you, provides a sense of growth and makes you feel fulfilled. All the best with your pursuit into backend development. I have two questions: 1. What would be your ideal backend role? 2. Does content creation still offer great financial support while pursuing backend development?
Thanks! It was awesome to see you follow through with that. I know it was a long journey. But yeah, I guess that is essentially what I'm going through now as well. 1. Still exploring that a bit. 2. Great? No. Can I make it work with a lot of hours? Probably.
as a developer who got reeled into the influencer stack I am surely realizing there are many gaps and holes in my knowledge that I never got or was made aware of. it got me to a good point where i could build stuff, but when complexity starts being added, all my skills break down. going back to the backend for a while can be good to build that foundation to tackle the frontend again thats my plan
I'm feeling the same, the frontend world looks to be always starting up things from scratch, the knowledge its almost not reusable with all this complex shit
Hey Don, great video!. It's really interesting to hear your points of view about all this. A few months ago I left frontend although I really love it but I found that I enjoy even more the backend side, maybe I'm wrong here but I realized with the time that simplicity is one of those things that I try to search and apply in every aspect of the software development and even though frontend frameworks bring new ideas of how to resolve complex problems, most of the time it's not necessary to use them and it provokes over-engineering. Instead in backend side, I found more frequently with a standardize and simple way of doing things and even with the tools/frameworks/libraries, etc. This doesn't mean that frontend is easer, both sides are difficult in their way but I guess that is where you feel more comfortable at the end. Wish you all the best!
I was a huge react fanboy and worked as a react dev. Then I tried Angular and, after I really learned how to use it properly, realised Angular is the GOAT. After Angular going back to React projects seemed more painful.
@@DonTheDeveloper Can you elaborate on this a bit? I'm a new grad thinking about investing time in building projects with Go but I'm also worried that it's still a bit niche and I'm thinking learning Java Spring would make me more marketable. At the same time I want to do what I find fun and interesting and Go seems more fun but I'm conflicted. I'm also super interested in distributed systems. Do I take the safer Java route or follow the excitement?
If you're looking to get hired in backend fast then focus on Node, Java or C#. I started in them and now work primarily with Go... It's an absolute beast ✨
Man! So happy your video appeared, I have been relearning to build MPAs again. So sick of Front End and SPAs, the million or so npm packages and so on. Even with Next.js, as fantastic as I think it is, is insulting when it now mimics what the back end has done since the beginning. I also hated being surrounded and assigned junior devs to constantly correct their work (to save the company money). Subscribed.
@@-Engineering01- You can chose to if you want . I work full stack and can chose either to make static websites with normal controllers and template engines(thyme-leaf in java) or make REST API's using @RestController's and then use React with Vite for the frontend or what ever I like.
I really like this video. I've heard you mention before that you're trying to go for a more unfiltered, raw style (i.e. uncut, unscripted) and I think it fits this subject particularly well (watching you step through the process of this decision).
Respect for being able realistically assess your skills and retain the desire to improve. I'm kind of in the same place (mid level backend, hard worker, not bad, not great). I just can't seem to summon up the energy/interest/desire to grind and improve myself with the same intensity that brought me to this point. And I did the one thing I never wanted to do: I let myself slide into a place where I'm great at extending/maintaining someone else's platform, but have difficulties on my own projects (there's a graveyard of half finished projects behind me). I don't think it's just strictly a age or burnout thing. I think after working hard to climb the ladder in tech, I lift up my head and I'm realizing that web dev might not be for me. Like, it was my way in the door, but I just don't think it's what I want to be doing for the next 20 years. I've been studying game design, as I think that's were I see myself long term, but it's kind of scary since a pivot like that might mean a step back career-wise (new languages, tools and 0 experience in that segment of the industry). But even if I get to a point of backend web dev as 9-5 and indie game dev on the side I think I'll be a lot happier. Anyway, good luck. One thing I like about backend is the feeling of satisfaction when you can design and build a system that ingest, processes and exposes data elegantly for other services/component/people to use. It's like uncovering a new area on a game map and building the first new outpost. I think you'll like it.
The truth is almost no one cares about semantics or how you do it. Most of the time is enough to show something working on the screen , so that the client is satisfied. That´s the business and how the cash flows. If you constantly try to be the best problem solver and constantly try to use all of the best practices you are going to get nuts. Perfectionism is a good thing, but as long as you get paid and do your job that´s most important.
I went to the fullstack route. And backend have so much depth to it. Especially when you go into microservices, caching, oauth2, data bases, queue. There's so much to learn and im kind of negleting the frontend side and inclining into the backend. I want to build something with golang too.
Do it! It is great to be excited to create. Personally I am perhaps a bit weird in that I went straight into full stack at the beginning (and still do it now after nearly 6 years). What I enjoyed was seeing data sent from a backend and seeing it manifest in the frontend... To me, how it did that was like some sort of crazy clever magic! I have always stuck with fuill stack because I like working with the whole flow. Both frontend or backend can be very complex depending on the project... though personally I have found that backend can get broader and deeper technically speaking, often requiring some stronger programming fundamentals and stronger knowledge around systems design, event driven systems, performance tuning, databases, and often includes a requirement of some devops and operating systems related knowledge.
The most important thing on the frontend is the UI/UX, so whatever tool is the quickest and easiest way to accomplish that becomes the most popular and "best" way to do it
I’m in the process of trying to transition to backend from frontend. I’m even willing to take a pay cut and lower level position if necessary. I’m really enjoying getting back into the backend as I prepare for interviews 😊
Hey Don, it will be interesting to follow your journey from front to backend, wish you all the best. I recently landed a position as a fullstack dev at a big solid company and my experience has been that the barrier to entry is much higher than the actual expectations for a junior dev (I'm a junior). Best regards mobak
Nah, junior reqs have just risen, as they continue to do so over the years. You have more people trying to get in, companies have more to select from. Congrats though!
React is fine, just learn more stuff, more tools for the tool box, and then just follow your heart. I'm an R3F MERN & Blender 3D dev who's going into C++ and GO to explore deeper programming concepts like developing authoritative servers and custom renderers .
I know it's not the norm, but there are "niche" areas that thrive on SPA's. I build interactive 3D environments, and the state of those environments is handled pretty well by React. I absolutely love TypeScript/JavaScript on the server because I love TypeScript. It's not the best choice, but when I need to pivot to another server language, I do. I think that's key as a fullstack dev is know when to just use a different language than the one you fanboi over. I use Docker compose/Docker swarm to build backend services on any serverside language with Astro/React front-ends (my preference) and I'm very happy with that.
@@DonTheDeveloper After you've been in web dev long enough, you'll start to have a nose for what is a fad. If you started frontend in the last 5 years, it's been a very rough 5 years. Explore other ways of doing frontend. Build apps on PHP, Python, Go, Ruby, etc. and all have frontend utilities to assist with fullstack development. You will be much, much happier in that realm. Once you're there, deploy on docker compose or Docker Swarm and don't use serverless anything.
I think both has their pros and cons. I don't find most of what Don issues to be a problem for the fronten. I honestly think that what he called bad, I would called good lol. I feel that I'd ignored the backend a little too much and this had limited the amount of things I can program. I love with the frontend that you can start a project fast and be done with it in a week
one thing about backend I appreciate since i switched over from frontend is clean code. what i mean by that is, backend (at least java shops) tend to follow design patterns like factory, adapter, decorator, etc. From my experience, frontend tend to be more loose. And when you interview for general software engineering, full stack or backend, these object oriented design patterns do get asked by popular companies like Amazon, Robinhood, etc. I've noticed early startups tend to avoid asking leetcode and more object oriented design questions now too. Overall, I feel like I'm writing much cleaner code when I started working in backend. It could be because these design patterns are not as applicable to frontend. Especially with a library like React.
I think it's true, JS is overly complicated, especially when it comes to react. If you enjoy design, then FE is a worthwhile pursuit. What we get lost in and enjoy deep diving on topics, then its a good hint you might want to go further. Good luck. I enjoy the FE and reducing complexity.
Programming is fun when you are solving real and interesting problems. With most frontend work you are not doing anything special or solving new problems "refresh this thing on click", "pull this from the database", "call out to this other service", etc. It's all stuff that's been done before a million times, most of the work is just piecing together these frameworks and conventions that have been decided and designed by someone else. To me it's just as uninteresting as the modern tendency of treating every application as if it was a google mega-cluster, so you have to have all these APIs and microservices and all these moving parts running in docker containers on some VMs talking over a network. I mean for many products and scalability you do often need that these days, but conceptually it's just a worse version of a simple function call in a monolithic application, so it's all simple concepts and all that complexity and things breaking all the time is not intrinsic it's just incidental and due to the fact all this software has to live on the cloud and servers have to talk to each other. For those that found that incidental complexity interesting, great! But that's not the be all and end all of software. My suggestion is to think about what kind of problems you find interesting and you want to solve with software. Also think about what kind of programming languages you like: low-level, high-level, procedural, OOP, functional, compiled, interpreted, etc. There are many different fields and applications depending on what you like: embedded systems, game dev, web dev, data science, AI, machine learning, dev ops, blockchain, desktop apps, mobile apps, networking stuff, devops, automation/scripting, scientific computing, robotics, NLP, fintech, UI/UX, etc. Many of these fields require you to solve new and interesting problems where you are not just wiring libraries together, but where you have to gather domain-specific knowledge, research algorithms and come up with novel solutions or variations of existing solutions.
I'll continue building Twitch Sprout with JavaScript on the backend for a while. I've been having a great time with NestJS. Not sure if I'll switch it down the road. I haven't used Go yet, but it is part of boot.dev's curriculum. So I'll have some more opinions about it once I finally dive into it.
@@DonTheDeveloper Brother switch, it's not too late and if you're going to be a small team and want to have other components of the Twitchsprout business, you will wish you had switched
I feel you on this, I am still a junior engineer but I have always gravitated toward back-end & logical-style development. I am currently in a front-end role and feel so eager to learn more about server-side.
It’s fine. All these languages and technologies are just tools. Use the right tool for the job. Java is kind of the main tool for backend across most orgs. At least from my experience I’ve seen Ruby and node used here and there but overall it’s been mostly Java. Esp in larger enterprise orgs. It’s the OG, love Java 😂🤘🏼
Such good insight, I really appreciate and respect it. Which language do you see yourself possibly using for your back end work coming up? Thanks again for the video, Don.
At my job I've been assigned to a project which has an overengineered React frontend. I have to create 7 different files whenever I want to add a new backend call. Also when something (anything) breaks, the site just redirects to an oops page, and debugging is a pain because it's all so scattered about, little pieces of code and type definitions across several files for anything that the frontend does. This project made me hate JS and particularly React, now I don't want to be a fullstack engineer anymore, I'll just deal with the backend, thanks. Though I have to say, these kind of React projects are making JQuery look better and better every day
I think the way I feel about JS is partly due to the community. Its very confusing when you have multiple ppl trying to help you but each giving a different answer, and none really explaining the Why of their solution. Even in really positive communities there seems to be this shadow. Each person fights for their solution to be learned by a new person, They want to be Right... I think it makes everyone a little unhappy. My experience of backend communities is more diverse. Lots of ppl all doing very different things using different languages. But when they argue, there are moments of conceding or agreeing to disagree, that defuses the tension. Its encouraging :D
I feel this. A long time ago, a boss of mine gave me a heads up that the frontend arguments tend to be more plentiful and less constructive then the backend ones. I'm not sure why that is, but after all of these years I do think he was right.
Most interesting is, it’s not hard to become good at JavaScript, some devs just don’t do it, and some want to become good devs, but they learn new frameworks instead, being misled
Lol its good to hear someone say it. Personally, i never fell for it because i got lucky i knew some real devs😂 can i quote you sometime in the future? Im trying to get into this too. Subscribed!!!
Feeling the same Bro, thus I've spent last few weeks for converting my mindset into HTMX (which allows You to achieve all the SPA/JS modern apps level tbh).
SPA's, React and the observer pattern (implemented via something like legend state) are really good choices when you are building very complicated, highly interactive, highly interconnected enterprise apps. But for your average website with a CMS its deffo not the best choice, and I tend to go back to something more server oriented. All these frameworks & languages are just tools, a means to an end, the trick is knowing when and when not to use them, which takes time to learn and its constantly evolving. Just as another aside, at least in the start-up world which i live in, developers often get judged (usually by non-technical people that control the money) on how quickly they can get an app working not on how deeply they understand everything. The metric of what defines a good frontend developer depends upon the demands of the environment and ultimately what the business considers valuable. And I say that for better and for worse as there a lot of negative consequences that follow from this.
i always found it to be very annoying that once you pick a front end library or framework you are now forced to only use ui libraries that are adapter to that or make your own wrappers to be able to use them that's sooo annoying going back to vanilla js and batteries included mvc like laravel has been a breath of fresh air... especially for me who likes being full stack
I came from writing vanilla javascript projects and when I tried to do web development no company would hire me because I haven't done any commercial projects in React or Vue.
@@haha-eg8fj i'm fullstack 19.5% of websites don't use any js library or framework, 75.3% use jquery 18.9% use bootstrap (i'm referring to the js library for bootstrap here ...) 4.7% only use react 0.9% only use vue + going from vanilla js to react or vue isn't that hard to do react just handles dom updating for you rather than you doing it manually... it's just a preference sometimes react introduces way too much overhead wich causes the time to get to market to increase a lot unnecessarily depends where and what you are looking for but let me tell you the "no body wants to hire me because i don't use react" is a false statement especially if you go full stack there is a lot of jobs in vanilla js jquery and php or java/c# if you go corporate ... jquery and php pay the bills for a lot of people even today w3techs.com/technologies/overview/javascript_library w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language
@@haha-eg8fj i'm fullstack 19.5% of websites don't use any js library or framework, 75.3% use jquery 18.9% use bootstrap (i'm referring to the js library for bootstrap here ...) 4.7% only use react 0.9% only use vue + going from vanilla js to react or vue isn't that hard to do react just handles dom updating for you rather than you doing it manually... it's just a preference sometimes react introduces way too much overhead wich causes the time to get to market to increase a lot unnecessarily depends where and what you are looking for but let me tell you the "no body wants to hire me because i don't use react" is a false statement especially if you go full stack there is a lot of jobs in vanilla js jquery and php or java/c# if you go corporate ... jquery and php pay the bills for a lot of people even today w3techs.com/technologies/overview/javascript_library w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language
8 years of frontend focused full stack experience working with React, Angular and little bit of nodejs. i am sick of JS now. Thinking to switch to more of product or solution architect role where i am not deeply involved with writing code particularly JS.
What if you switched to a coding position that didn't use JS - would you stick with software engineering? If the problem is just JS, why not explore that?
@@DonTheDeveloper yeah. i just dont want to be code monkey anymore. The problem with most coding jobs whether FE or BE is working hours. Secondly when we specialize in one stack it is not very easy to transition. Also JS space is way too much saturated, i know most people say it dont matter if you are technically good, but honestly it does (consider 500 applications for one job)
Nice! I started with code ninja's beginner series, then have been switching between documentation and ChatGPT. I don't think the documentation is anywhere complete, and AI has been able to fill a lot of holes in not only understanding how it works, but supplementing with much greater detail what isn't in the documentation.
It depends on the system and what it's for I suppose. I'm a fan of actually separating the backend to run on it's own. I think obfuscating the separation between backend and frontend, like NextJS does, does more harm than good with the growth of majority of developers.
Well kinda. You should in theory develop a backend system so any client can interact with it. However some apps can be built without needing an api and instead just serve html pages with all the content needed
Just curious how come in coding there is always a feeling that you need to constantly level up and a career where you need to be the best. I mean it not like your trying to get into the nba i think alot of roles the devs are not great but doing it for the money. In IT Support basically you don't have to be constantly pushing yourself and still get 100k in nyc. If you can make 100k in IT support but in dev you can make 200k but you will have to study outside of work and be stressed trying to solve complex problems. Is it even worth it if you can complement that income with a business in free time.
I think software engineering tends to attract ambitious people. For me, I've always had a drive to constantly grow. I respect others that do as well and honestly just vibe with them. Nothing is more uninspiring than surrounding myself with people who want to put the least amount of effort in. Stress = growth. Comfort = decay.
@@DonTheDeveloper wouldn't the most ambitious thing to do with software engineering skills to start a business get the most leverage for your skills and slave away at a job. like have a job and build a side saas business
@@bobdaniels3692 No, ambition can lead you down many paths. You have to find the right path for you, but no matter what you choose - don't be lazy with it. If you choose to split your time, put in your full effort towards both, given your limited time. And if you find yourself not enjoying pursuing the challenges at work and constantly growing, maybe consider a new line of work.
I might be off-track but my impression is that your lack of satisfaction in Frontend dev is because you have been abstracted by a framework that gets more opinionated and sterile at every new iteration in exchange of productivity, speed and standardization. It separated you from the enjoyment and excitement of crafting solutions. Considering to switch to backend is momentarily putting you in front of a white canvas and that potential is seductive since you experienced the taste of being an artisan vs an assembly line worker. Nevertheless you mentioned Nestjs, another framework that might eventually bring you back to the same unsatisfactory position you now have reached doing frameworks driven Frontend. Instead of choosing a framework why not keeping experimenting with Node as you are doing and stick with the basic provided libraries reducing the abstractions as long as the learning process gives you pleasure and satisfaction. No need for Express or Nestjs. You might be slower and need to go through several iterations before achieving your project objectives but I think you will enjoy every steps. (And you could apply the same principle to Frontend as well)
Why not stick with Node? There's just no drawback of opening my mind to other ecosystems and ways of doing things. You can only grow from exploring other programming languages that have their own cultures and conventions.
Glad to hear it. It did the same for me as well. I have been thinking about this transition for a while, but there is something inspiring about what Lane is trying to do for the software engineering community. Primeagen is another one for me. Nothing is more inspiring than people who want to be really good at what they do and encourage others to do the same.
I am junior level 1-2 years of commercial experience frontend developer. I kinda wish I spent more time to learn backend, but I don't have the CV and I'm locked in currently in the frontend path. In the whole year of looking for a job I got basically 1-2 opportunities* for backend, while having 2 per month alone for frontend. As much as I agree backend has brighter future, there is no niche where people hire below 1 year of experience and I cannot afford to go to square one, especially that I actively work part time in a startup as frontend dev. *by opportunities I mean getting to the phase of interviews and tasks
Companies 100% do hire below 1 year of PROFESSIONAL experience for both backend and frontend positions BUT yes experience at least building personal projects is going to be required. If you're not willing to dedicate the time outside of work to learn and transition, then yeah you obviously won't achieve anything different. If nothing changes, nothing changes.
@DonTheDeveloper Well we only have one life and 24 hours in a day. I feel Im very close, I've been told a few times that I was like top 10 from 300 applicants. I want to find a developer job first, and then I will worry about the future of my niche. Thanks for replying
Yea frontend stack sucks now days. Tons of framework for the same output. Some day my boss asked me why did I kept rewriting the UI for the same output just to keep up with new framework , new techic new this and that, which is looks the same in front of end user. From that day I wrote my own framework from micro framework and more towards vanilla js. I've be more productive and happy with that without felt daunting with new framework every week.
I did worse, i chose backend then switched to frontend and then realised my mistake... 7 years later... problem is my company tells me if i wanna be a backend now i need to quit and reapply... and i'm not ready to give up my tenure so i'm stuck temporarily.. i've also been warned the wage would be considerably lower since i'm quitting Senior Frontend and would be reapplying as Junior Backend
I agree, it seems as technology evolves it's supposed to make things easier - whereas with react it seems they're making things harder for whatever reason. Although one point you made about how frontend is like 'the wild west' - surely this is a good thing? Because as A.I progresses and gets better this will make people in jobs using opinionated libraries / frameworks more useless as opposed to unopinionated as it's basically solved.
There are so much more backend jobs than front end. The ratio of backend to front end devs are like 10:1 at my company. And we have like 2000 software engineers.
Lots of value in a person who invested a lot on one side to hop to the other as much as that person being even more expert in it. Passion trumps some level of expertise because otherwise you'll get burnt out.
Yeah, the JavaScript ecosystem is the wild west. There is no standards or idiomatic way of solving large web application problems like there as for back-end SOAs. I mean, there is so many different ways to build a web application, so many design considerations, so much underlining technology and infrastructure that is open-ended in its use. Functional vs OOP trends and philosophies mixed in with the constraints of the browser ecosystem. However, I must say, when you turn off the noise from the tech-influencer sphere on front-end, you have to just ask yourself the question: "what am I trying to build". A LOT of the times, you WANT React, that's why it's so popular. It let's you define reusable front-end components with state and side-effects. If you didn't use a library, you would end up reaching or building something similar. I love front-end because I get to build amazing applications in JavaScript, the fact that we can have this application deployed in the browser is fascinating to me. Maybe you just aren't working on complex applications?
Complexity came with my previous 3 dev positions, all of which I was using React. Complexity did not bring anymore enjoyment to my work. You say that a lot of times that I WANT React. That just isn't true. I don't think a problem is using a frontend framework, I think it's the obsession to use a hammer (React) to solve almost every single problem on the frontend that's broken. I'm so tired of this cult.
@@DonTheDeveloper I'd argue nothing is broken on the front-end, it is working perfectly as intended right now for what it's designed to solve. The fact it's trying to do thing's it's not designed to solve is where people run into issues, but even then, the browser/Javascript ecosystem does a PRETTY damn good job at giving you the tools to accomplish those tasks too. I don't understand the frustration with React, React is an amazing tool even for light weight applications.
Idk your background but have you tried other stuff in the frontend other than React? I definitely agree that JS ecosystem is pretty awful, but I think React is the main culprit of it. I personally think Angular and Vue is much better. On the backend, idk how much experience you have there but trying to create something with vanilla express is pretty similar to React. Completely barebones, have to do a lot of stuff from scratch, bring in a lot of 3rd party packages, no set standards, every express codebase looking different from each other, etc. When I first started in backend, I used express and I hated it. It wasn't until I used Nest that I actually enjoyed backend. And ofc, I checked out other languages on the backend and yea, it's so much better imo. So, yea, JS ecosystem is not the best but React is just bad. That's my take :) Oh, also...have you done any native mobile development? I'm just curious because I'm thinking the same thing as you, I'm pretty tired of the js ecosystem but I love frontend (parts of it anyways) so maybe IOS could be a path for me
A lot of this rings true for me as well. I do think React, specifically, has killed my enjoyment for frontend. I love HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Similar to you, I also found that I really enjoy backend when I finally replaced express with Nest. I haven't done anything with mobile development, but you should definitely explore it. It can't hurt, and who knows - you might enjoy that a whole lot more. Try it out.
Is there any chance you could upgrade your webcam? The video quality is quite blurry, and it’s a bit hard to watch. I really love your content, but I often just listen to it because the blur strains my eyes. I don’t mean to offend. It’s just a friendly suggestion you might consider
I have 11 yoe. 10 as front end and 1 as backend. I work in a full stack team. The pure backend teams struggle and write the worst Frontend code that you’ll find. Same for us frontend guys moving to the backend. My conclusion is that each area benefits from having dedicated professionals. And that fullstack is a mistake if you want top quality code and velocity for big projects.
I guess you aren't really full stack, guys... My experience is that fullstack teams are the most efficient. No more Frontend/Backend fencing or lack of UI dev capacity, introducing artificial delays.
It's the same drama for backend too, dude. Why so many languages in the backend? They all can get the job done and are all very similar nowadays. Yet, we keep getting new languages to divide the BE job market even further.
I think once you start to become more Sr, you'll realize there isn't much of a distinction between these things. You'll be solving problems at a much higher level. All these things like React and such will become minor details of the implementation.
This is true to an extent, but in the React world (React and Nextjs) I feel like I'm trying to solve a framework problem way too much, and not a business problem. React is the only area of the tech stack where I feel this way
I don't think it has anything to do with seniority. The problems you solve are different in different areas of the stack. When you have to work directly in a shitty ecosystem that uses a hammer (React) to fix every problem, and you're industry isn't that open to other tools if you want to remain marketable, that's a problem. I've found backend culture to be focused much more on using the right tool for the job than the frontend, and that's part of what I'm seeking out as well.
I prefer both back end and front end but I can't stand React, et. al. But, when I was laid off last for the life of me I couldn't find a job because I didn't know React or Angular. I could go in and teach the React devs at my last job how to do JS/TS but I always thought React was unnecessarily complex so I didn't really go in and get a deep understanding of it. So, I found a job and I'm doing Nodejs/React (before I did C#). I don't really like this stack. But it pays the bills and gets me my next job. At my last job I mostly did C# and helped people if they had any JS questions. On the side I develop offline first applicaitons (SPAs) using service workers to send HTML to the browser from my service worker. I use a JS library I created to make it a SPA similar to HTMX but simpler so it is easier to use. So, in other words. I know my stuff but if you don't know React, etc then you might find it to be very difficult to find a job.
You might have struggled, but a lot of good backend devs haven't. They got really good at backend, and weren't pursuing fullstack / frontend positions. If you're actually pursuing backend positions and you make yourself competitive, React doesn't even come into the equation. There's always a lot to unpack in individual situations, but I can promise you that React is not a requirement for aspiring backend devs.
@@DonTheDeveloper I must be looking in all the wrong places then. Because I didn't find many back end only C# dev jobs when I was looking for work a year ago. I actually like working with JS and some front end. It gives variety to work. I just prefer simplicity rather than the modern day complexity.
There are also many bad software developers working backends. Its just that they are not visible to anyone because the only people that get frustrated by them are other backend developers.
I believe that the abstraction Hell we have entered is due to the elephant in the room: Tons of new developers don't like "coding" in HTML or CSS. There, I said it! New developers are overwhelmingly pushed towards front-end. But they quietly discover that in the trinity of HTML/CSS/JS, they only like JS. And they like the "real coding" of JS, rather than language itself. Here comes the React library and Node framework to save them! They will then spend more and more time making distance between themselves and raw HTML & CSS & JS. To give you an analogy: Imagine accountants that use calculators because they don't know multiplication, rather than using calculators in order to be more efficient with a concept that they already know! You wouldn't want any financial reports or tax returns from an accountant that doesn't know multiplication. So why do many front-end developers believe that an employer would want a dev that doesn't actually understand the tool that they are using? They will just make bug-prone half-solutions.
In this market, you have to go where the opportunities are, whether it is frontend, backend, or testing. Go where you can start earning a buck, at least in the beginning.
There are opportunities in all 3 (for new developers). If you don't pursue what you really enjoy, you're most likely going to give up before you you even break into the industry. The industry doesn't care to hire low-interest, surface level knowledge developers anymore. That time has passed.
I appreciate all of the comments on this one! I tried to respond to a lot of them. Based on the comments, I’d like to clarify a bit. Just because I don’t like what the JS ecosystem is turning into, frontend developers still deserve the same respect as backend. There’s some serious depth to it that takes good developers to navigate through. We are all software engineers at the end of the day, even the Rust/furry developers.
Front-end has been over-engineered to the tits.
i like how you put it
Reject the darkness, embrace the light of the LAMP.
Lots of ADHD in the space :)
The good part is the experimentation and innovation. Good to observe, not so good if you depend on it.
Literally, a few times the client asked me to do something in React and I managed to convince them to allow me to do it in HTML, CSS and very little JS (or TS). Not to mention the number of times WP would be sufficient for the smaller clients needs.
@@scosminv care to explain?
The backend is the kitchen: no matter how nice the restaurant looks, people come for the food. Welcome to the kitchen, Don. It's a LOT more exciting back here
🔥🔥🔥
Thank you. It's time to cook.
I am not sure anybody would enjoy the web if browsers or apps just rendered JSON output. Kitchen and a pretty restaurant are both equally important, sorry.
@@adrian110288 This is isn't high school theater where everyone's contribution is equally important. In programming and the food industry, there is no business without the back of house. A taco truck doesn't need to be pretty if it serves the best tacos. Amazon was a bare-bones website well past the $100 million mark.
@@adrian110288 A junior take. If your FE breaks it's an inconvenience, if your BE breaks it's a full on fire alarm and a potential lawsuit
@@baxterdevin A taco truck still needs to have some presentation and not look like some rundown truck in order do get good business. And just because Amazons site isn’t pretty, it’s been HIGHLY measured for sales, conversions, etc which is a really important piece of front end. I may be frustrated with the JavaScript ecosystem but I’ve definitely seen front end developers turn a company around that was sinking. The backend is useless without the front end and the front end is useless without the backend in web development.
This is why our team switched to HTMX. We left all the unnecessary complexity behind and never looked back. We're 10x more productive, and our codebase is clean and maintainable. The key word here is maintainable. The code won't break next Tuesday when a new version of React is released.
HTMX FTW
I think HTMX is a great option for personal projects, but I'm worried that it'll never adopt marketability, given that it's so light and not really built to scale well as the frontend grows. HTMX definitely needs more proof that it can handle scalability without thanks getting too difficult to maintain. Maybe consider writing a detailed blog post about how your team has made it work.
@@DonTheDeveloper :
Initially, we had the same scaling concerns, but after prototyping a few features, we realized that the HTMX codebase contained 60% to 70% fewer lines of code compared to React. With this finding, we set out to develop an MVP and were pleasantly surprised by how quickly we could deliver features. Additionally, our team suffers from a high turnover rate, as we work with a constantly changing workforce-50% of the team is new every 6 months due to the nature of the Consulting company we’re working with. HTMX made it easier for new team members to pick up the project. With React, we always faced challenges in delivering because it took so much effort to train new team members. With HTMX, it only took one week of training, and everyone started delivering.
As for scaling in terms of the codebase, we were pleasantly surprised by how clean the code is and how easy it was to take an interface from the UX team, add HTMX attributes to it, and have it working within hours, versus coding everything from scratch as React components. In terms of scaling productivity, new recruits were delivering features within one week, compared to two months of training with React.
There's also a general sense of happiness among the team from working with HTMX. Previously, with React, some team members dreaded working with it because of the large codebase in a single file. We’re talking about thousands of lines of JSX code in a single file (This is what you get from having 2 months of training). With HTMX, most of the code is just HTML, which most people can read-even if they are not developers.
It's an internal financial system for a very large telecom company in the U.S. It has dynamic interactions, drag-and-drop functionality, and live notifications, just like React.
I hope features like HTMX are eventually added to standard HTML, as it would make life much easier.
@@DonTheDeveloper I’m finding the opposite to be true .. which is counter intuitive
The first building blocks in doing a large scale app in htmx were tedious.. and evolving a system of UI components using backend code only.
But as the scope grows, it gets easier and easier to add features using mostly declarative structs in the backend, and reusable backend “components” to drive them.
Because there is simply no need for the backend to ever have to convert native data structs to and from JSON, it scales effortlessly.
What starts to emerge as the app grows is a simple library (of backend code) that abstracts away all the fiddly complexity
Just choose a good backend stack though. You could in theory do this in node .. but it’s going to hurt.
Go would be good choice. Even straight C would do a good job of it.
What about solidjs? I know htmx but I have a Fullstack project on C# and wonder if using solidjs for a really big scalable project might be nice
"Stop chasing trends". You nailed it!!
Welcome to the dark side brother ❤
Haha thanks!
As a developer, I've been experimenting with programs, and I found myself enjoying working with the backend. Don't get me wrong, I like working on the frontend, but the feeling that I get when handling data is fulfuilling.There's something to connecting a database to the frontend that is pretty damn awesome! Cool video, Don. I'm excited for your next endeavor with the backend.
Thanks Rene! You should definitely keep exploring that. The software engineering world is such a wide field. There's so many paths to choose and I love that about our field.
I totally relate with your signs for needing a change. I went through the same thing in my previous career.
Definitely lean into what makes you happy, challenges you, provides a sense of growth and makes you feel fulfilled. All the best with your pursuit into backend development.
I have two questions:
1. What would be your ideal backend role?
2. Does content creation still offer great financial support while pursuing backend development?
Thanks! It was awesome to see you follow through with that. I know it was a long journey. But yeah, I guess that is essentially what I'm going through now as well.
1. Still exploring that a bit.
2. Great? No. Can I make it work with a lot of hours? Probably.
as a developer who got reeled into the influencer stack I am surely realizing there are many gaps and holes in my knowledge that I never got or was made aware of.
it got me to a good point where i could build stuff, but when complexity starts being added, all my skills break down.
going back to the backend for a while can be good to build that foundation to tackle the frontend again thats my plan
I'm feeling the same, the frontend world looks to be always starting up things from scratch, the knowledge its almost not reusable with all this complex shit
Making the Javascript ecosystem more complex to solve problems that it continues to introduce... Powerful!
Cool stuff, if I may suggest you look into languages like Java and C# instead of node.js
Hey Don, great video!. It's really interesting to hear your points of view about all this. A few months ago I left frontend although I really love it but I found that I enjoy even more the backend side, maybe I'm wrong here but I realized with the time that simplicity is one of those things that I try to search and apply in every aspect of the software development and even though frontend frameworks bring new ideas of how to resolve complex problems, most of the time it's not necessary to use them and it provokes over-engineering. Instead in backend side, I found more frequently with a standardize and simple way of doing things and even with the tools/frameworks/libraries, etc. This doesn't mean that frontend is easer, both sides are difficult in their way but I guess that is where you feel more comfortable at the end. Wish you all the best!
I was a huge react fanboy and worked as a react dev. Then I tried Angular and, after I really learned how to use it properly, realised Angular is the GOAT. After Angular going back to React projects seemed more painful.
I started having this feeling 4 months ago and decided to leave the Frontend / JS environment for Backend /Go.
Marketability isn't quite there with Go yet, but I am still interested in trying it out.
@@DonTheDeveloper Can you elaborate on this a bit? I'm a new grad thinking about investing time in building projects with Go but I'm also worried that it's still a bit niche and I'm thinking learning Java Spring would make me more marketable. At the same time I want to do what I find fun and interesting and Go seems more fun but I'm conflicted. I'm also super interested in distributed systems. Do I take the safer Java route or follow the excitement?
If you're looking to get hired in backend fast then focus on Node, Java or C#. I started in them and now work primarily with Go... It's an absolute beast ✨
@@jonblack7046 Is node actually used in industry? I thought it was more of a side project thing and has scalability issues
@@DonTheDeveloper Which language will you use?
Man! So happy your video appeared, I have been relearning to build MPAs again. So sick of Front End and SPAs, the million or so npm packages and so on. Even with Next.js, as fantastic as I think it is, is insulting when it now mimics what the back end has done since the beginning. I also hated being surrounded and assigned junior devs to constantly correct their work (to save the company money). Subscribed.
Frontend is the hell, some people think that frontend is easier than backend.
Its easy to get the basics maybe. But can scale like hell if u keep adding on top of the basics
spring & spring-boot is the way to go.
trust me using spring-boot is just so soothing and simple yet very powerful.
is there any front end involved over there ?
@@-Engineering01- You can chose to if you want .
I work full stack and can chose either to make static websites with normal controllers and template engines(thyme-leaf in java) or make REST API's using @RestController's and then use React with Vite for the frontend or what ever I like.
I really like this video. I've heard you mention before that you're trying to go for a more unfiltered, raw style (i.e. uncut, unscripted) and I think it fits this subject particularly well (watching you step through the process of this decision).
Thanks! I think anything planned past a few bullet points of an outline doesn't hit the same for my videos.
Respect for being able realistically assess your skills and retain the desire to improve.
I'm kind of in the same place (mid level backend, hard worker, not bad, not great). I just can't seem to summon up the energy/interest/desire to grind and improve myself with the same intensity that brought me to this point. And I did the one thing I never wanted to do: I let myself slide into a place where I'm great at extending/maintaining someone else's platform, but have difficulties on my own projects (there's a graveyard of half finished projects behind me).
I don't think it's just strictly a age or burnout thing. I think after working hard to climb the ladder in tech, I lift up my head and I'm realizing that web dev might not be for me. Like, it was my way in the door, but I just don't think it's what I want to be doing for the next 20 years.
I've been studying game design, as I think that's were I see myself long term, but it's kind of scary since a pivot like that might mean a step back career-wise (new languages, tools and 0 experience in that segment of the industry).
But even if I get to a point of backend web dev as 9-5 and indie game dev on the side I think I'll be a lot happier.
Anyway, good luck. One thing I like about backend is the feeling of satisfaction when you can design and build a system that ingest, processes and exposes data elegantly for other services/component/people to use. It's like uncovering a new area on a game map and building the first new outpost. I think you'll like it.
I appreciate that. And it certainly can't hurt for you to be curious about something else. Who knows where you'll end up.
How do you switch mid career? Everybody expects backend experience to let you work.
The truth is almost no one cares about semantics or how you do it. Most of the time is enough to show something working on the screen , so that the client is satisfied. That´s the business and how the cash flows. If you constantly try to be the best problem solver and constantly try to use all of the best practices you are going to get nuts. Perfectionism is a good thing, but as long as you get paid and do your job that´s most important.
I went to the fullstack route. And backend have so much depth to it. Especially when you go into microservices, caching, oauth2, data bases, queue. There's so much to learn and im kind of negleting the frontend side and inclining into the backend. I want to build something with golang too.
Do it! It is great to be excited to create. Personally I am perhaps a bit weird in that I went straight into full stack at the beginning (and still do it now after nearly 6 years). What I enjoyed was seeing data sent from a backend and seeing it manifest in the frontend... To me, how it did that was like some sort of crazy clever magic! I have always stuck with fuill stack because I like working with the whole flow. Both frontend or backend can be very complex depending on the project... though personally I have found that backend can get broader and deeper technically speaking, often requiring some stronger programming fundamentals and stronger knowledge around systems design, event driven systems, performance tuning, databases, and often includes a requirement of some devops and operating systems related knowledge.
The most important thing on the frontend is the UI/UX, so whatever tool is the quickest and easiest way to accomplish that becomes the most popular and "best" way to do it
Frontend: I've solved a problem that's already been solved, a different way. Worship me.
Backend: This problem has been solved.
I’m in the process of trying to transition to backend from frontend. I’m even willing to take a pay cut and lower level position if necessary. I’m really enjoying getting back into the backend as I prepare for interviews 😊
Hey Don, it will be interesting to follow your journey from front to backend, wish you all the best. I recently landed a position as a fullstack dev at a big solid company and my experience has been that the barrier to entry is much higher than the actual expectations for a junior dev (I'm a junior). Best regards mobak
Nah, junior reqs have just risen, as they continue to do so over the years. You have more people trying to get in, companies have more to select from. Congrats though!
React is fine, just learn more stuff, more tools for the tool box, and then just follow your heart. I'm an R3F MERN & Blender 3D dev who's going into C++ and GO to explore deeper programming concepts like developing authoritative servers and custom renderers .
I know it's not the norm, but there are "niche" areas that thrive on SPA's. I build interactive 3D environments, and the state of those environments is handled pretty well by React. I absolutely love TypeScript/JavaScript on the server because I love TypeScript. It's not the best choice, but when I need to pivot to another server language, I do. I think that's key as a fullstack dev is know when to just use a different language than the one you fanboi over. I use Docker compose/Docker swarm to build backend services on any serverside language with Astro/React front-ends (my preference) and I'm very happy with that.
SPAs do have their use-cases. They're just overused. That's the problem.
@@DonTheDeveloper After you've been in web dev long enough, you'll start to have a nose for what is a fad. If you started frontend in the last 5 years, it's been a very rough 5 years. Explore other ways of doing frontend. Build apps on PHP, Python, Go, Ruby, etc. and all have frontend utilities to assist with fullstack development. You will be much, much happier in that realm. Once you're there, deploy on docker compose or Docker Swarm and don't use serverless anything.
Good luck Don!
Thanks!
It happened to me too, i started refactory some old backend library in my current work and i started loving it more and more
I think both has their pros and cons. I don't find most of what Don issues to be a problem for the fronten. I honestly think that what he called bad, I would called good lol. I feel that I'd ignored the backend a little too much and this had limited the amount of things I can program. I love with the frontend that you can start a project fast and be done with it in a week
one thing about backend I appreciate since i switched over from frontend is clean code. what i mean by that is, backend (at least java shops) tend to follow design patterns like factory, adapter, decorator, etc. From my experience, frontend tend to be more loose. And when you interview for general software engineering, full stack or backend, these object oriented design patterns do get asked by popular companies like Amazon, Robinhood, etc. I've noticed early startups tend to avoid asking leetcode and more object oriented design questions now too. Overall, I feel like I'm writing much cleaner code when I started working in backend. It could be because these design patterns are not as applicable to frontend. Especially with a library like React.
I think it's true, JS is overly complicated, especially when it comes to react. If you enjoy design, then FE is a worthwhile pursuit.
What we get lost in and enjoy deep diving on topics, then its a good hint you might want to go further. Good luck. I enjoy the FE and reducing complexity.
Great shout man. Best of luck
I'm feeling like I'm in the same boat. Looking forward to see how it goes for you.
It started happening with me a little while back. I am kindof tired with solving frontend issues and current I am trying to transition to backend
welcome aboard! looking forward to hangout in the discord!
Programming is fun when you are solving real and interesting problems. With most frontend work you are not doing anything special or solving new problems "refresh this thing on click", "pull this from the database", "call out to this other service", etc. It's all stuff that's been done before a million times, most of the work is just piecing together these frameworks and conventions that have been decided and designed by someone else. To me it's just as uninteresting as the modern tendency of treating every application as if it was a google mega-cluster, so you have to have all these APIs and microservices and all these moving parts running in docker containers on some VMs talking over a network. I mean for many products and scalability you do often need that these days, but conceptually it's just a worse version of a simple function call in a monolithic application, so it's all simple concepts and all that complexity and things breaking all the time is not intrinsic it's just incidental and due to the fact all this software has to live on the cloud and servers have to talk to each other. For those that found that incidental complexity interesting, great! But that's not the be all and end all of software. My suggestion is to think about what kind of problems you find interesting and you want to solve with software. Also think about what kind of programming languages you like: low-level, high-level, procedural, OOP, functional, compiled, interpreted, etc. There are many different fields and applications depending on what you like: embedded systems, game dev, web dev, data science, AI, machine learning, dev ops, blockchain, desktop apps, mobile apps, networking stuff, devops, automation/scripting, scientific computing, robotics, NLP, fintech, UI/UX, etc. Many of these fields require you to solve new and interesting problems where you are not just wiring libraries together, but where you have to gather domain-specific knowledge, research algorithms and come up with novel solutions or variations of existing solutions.
You had me at "Programming is fun when you are solving real and interesting problems." The rest is just gravy.
Great comment.
Try using paragraphs next time.
@@dwight4k scriptio continua rules!
@@zwanzikahatzel9296 I wasn't aware this comment section was playing by those rules 😅
Switching to being a full time laravel developer has been a great decision
Laravel is absolutely amazing. Used to do frontend but with Laravel Blade or Livewire I just can't go back
do you write any front end ?
I watched this video and realized that I’ve had similar thoughts in my mind, but I never had the courage to admit them to myself 🙁
The same thing happens on the backend, it is just hidden since people dont make their backend program public
Are you going backend with javascript? any thougths to go with golang?
I'll continue building Twitch Sprout with JavaScript on the backend for a while. I've been having a great time with NestJS. Not sure if I'll switch it down the road. I haven't used Go yet, but it is part of boot.dev's curriculum. So I'll have some more opinions about it once I finally dive into it.
@@DonTheDeveloper Brother switch, it's not too late and if you're going to be a small team and want to have other components of the Twitchsprout business, you will wish you had switched
@@rmdashrfv those are incredible arguments for Nest, actually.
@@c1re-x9h My bad everyone, I thought it said NextJS not Nest! My mistake!
I feel you on this, I am still a junior engineer but I have always gravitated toward back-end & logical-style development. I am currently in a front-end role and feel so eager to learn more about server-side.
@@LifestyleWithNathan Front-end is also logical style development.
@ well yes, handling business logic on the front end. But primarily it is a creative focused role.
Do it! There's no harm in being curious.
Welcome to the BE Guild Don. Best wishes for you.
learn java. get good at design patterns and OOP (and some AOP) microservices, K8, etc
its alot but itll pay off in the long run
Java does not sound like a good time.
It’s fine. All these languages and technologies are just tools. Use the right tool for the job. Java is kind of the main tool for backend across most orgs. At least from my experience
I’ve seen Ruby and node used here and there but overall it’s been mostly Java. Esp in larger enterprise orgs.
It’s the OG, love Java 😂🤘🏼
Try Java 21 with Helidon 4 Nima, Helidon 4 SE or Helidon MP for backend.
Such good insight, I really appreciate and respect it. Which language do you see yourself possibly using for your back end work coming up? Thanks again for the video, Don.
For Twitch Sprout - JavaScript with Nest. Beyond that, we'll see!
Thanks for coming out as a brave backender. We are all proud of you.
At my job I've been assigned to a project which has an overengineered React frontend. I have to create 7 different files whenever I want to add a new backend call. Also when something (anything) breaks, the site just redirects to an oops page, and debugging is a pain because it's all so scattered about, little pieces of code and type definitions across several files for anything that the frontend does. This project made me hate JS and particularly React, now I don't want to be a fullstack engineer anymore, I'll just deal with the backend, thanks. Though I have to say, these kind of React projects are making JQuery look better and better every day
I think the way I feel about JS is partly due to the community. Its very confusing when you have multiple ppl trying to help you but each giving a different answer, and none really explaining the Why of their solution.
Even in really positive communities there seems to be this shadow. Each person fights for their solution to be learned by a new person, They want to be Right... I think it makes everyone a little unhappy.
My experience of backend communities is more diverse. Lots of ppl all doing very different things using different languages. But when they argue, there are moments of conceding or agreeing to disagree, that defuses the tension. Its encouraging :D
I feel this. A long time ago, a boss of mine gave me a heads up that the frontend arguments tend to be more plentiful and less constructive then the backend ones. I'm not sure why that is, but after all of these years I do think he was right.
Most interesting is, it’s not hard to become good at JavaScript, some devs just don’t do it, and some want to become good devs, but they learn new frameworks instead, being misled
Lol its good to hear someone say it. Personally, i never fell for it because i got lucky i knew some real devs😂 can i quote you sometime in the future? Im trying to get into this too.
Subscribed!!!
I’m a full stack dev. Been on a backend project for a few months. It’s been nice not to work on our old react codebase.
Had to learn full stack. Currently experienced with NestJS at the moment.
Feeling the same Bro, thus I've spent last few weeks for converting my mindset into HTMX (which allows You to achieve all the SPA/JS modern apps level tbh).
I will most likely try HTMX at some point.
I used JS for 14 years. I was a happy frontender, until Vercel.
Honestly, yes. 100% this.
SPA's, React and the observer pattern (implemented via something like legend state) are really good choices when you are building very complicated, highly interactive, highly interconnected enterprise apps. But for your average website with a CMS its deffo not the best choice, and I tend to go back to something more server oriented. All these frameworks & languages are just tools, a means to an end, the trick is knowing when and when not to use them, which takes time to learn and its constantly evolving. Just as another aside, at least in the start-up world which i live in, developers often get judged (usually by non-technical people that control the money) on how quickly they can get an app working not on how deeply they understand everything. The metric of what defines a good frontend developer depends upon the demands of the environment and ultimately what the business considers valuable. And I say that for better and for worse as there a lot of negative consequences that follow from this.
Agreed. I think most developer prefer backend too. I am a front end and I love to work on the backend
Love to hear it 😈
i always found it to be very annoying that once you pick a front end library or framework you are now forced to only use ui libraries that are adapter to that or make your own wrappers to be able to use them that's sooo annoying
going back to vanilla js and batteries included mvc like laravel has been a breath of fresh air... especially for me who likes being full stack
I came from writing vanilla javascript projects and when I tried to do web development no company would hire me because I haven't done any commercial projects in React or Vue.
@@haha-eg8fj i'm fullstack
19.5% of websites don't use any js library or framework,
75.3% use jquery
18.9% use bootstrap (i'm referring to the js library for bootstrap here ...)
4.7% only use react
0.9% only use vue
+ going from vanilla js to react or vue isn't that hard to do react just handles dom updating for you rather than you doing it manually... it's just a preference sometimes react introduces way too much overhead wich causes the time to get to market to increase a lot unnecessarily
depends where and what you are looking for but let me tell you the "no body wants to hire me because i don't use react" is a false statement especially if you go full stack there is a lot of jobs in vanilla js jquery and php or java/c# if you go corporate ...
jquery and php pay the bills for a lot of people even today
w3techs.com/technologies/overview/javascript_library
w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language
@@haha-eg8fj i'm fullstack
19.5% of websites don't use any js library or framework,
75.3% use jquery
18.9% use bootstrap (i'm referring to the js library for bootstrap here ...)
4.7% only use react
0.9% only use vue
+ going from vanilla js to react or vue isn't that hard to do react just handles dom updating for you rather than you doing it manually... it's just a preference sometimes react introduces way too much overhead wich causes the time to get to market to increase a lot unnecessarily
depends where and what you are looking for but let me tell you the "no body wants to hire me because i don't use react" is a false statement especially if you go full stack there is a lot of jobs in vanilla js jquery and php or java/c# if you go corporate ...
jquery and php pay the bills for a lot of people even today
w3techs.com/technologies/overview/javascript_library
w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language
8 years of frontend focused full stack experience working with React, Angular and little bit of nodejs. i am sick of JS now. Thinking to switch to more of product or solution architect role where i am not deeply involved with writing code particularly JS.
What if you switched to a coding position that didn't use JS - would you stick with software engineering? If the problem is just JS, why not explore that?
@@DonTheDeveloper yeah. i just dont want to be code monkey anymore. The problem with most coding jobs whether FE or BE is working hours. Secondly when we specialize in one stack it is not very easy to transition. Also JS space is way too much saturated, i know most people say it dont matter if you are technically good, but honestly it does (consider 500 applications for one job)
Front end always changing so much too
Hey, I have also started learning nestjs for backend. Are you learning it from the documentation?
Nice! I started with code ninja's beginner series, then have been switching between documentation and ChatGPT. I don't think the documentation is anywhere complete, and AI has been able to fill a lot of holes in not only understanding how it works, but supplementing with much greater detail what isn't in the documentation.
Interesting.
Which language will you use for back-end development?
We'll see
Shouldn't a well-architected system be able to function without a front end?
It depends on the system and what it's for I suppose. I'm a fan of actually separating the backend to run on it's own. I think obfuscating the separation between backend and frontend, like NextJS does, does more harm than good with the growth of majority of developers.
Well kinda. You should in theory develop a backend system so any client can interact with it. However some apps can be built without needing an api and instead just serve html pages with all the content needed
@@DonTheDeveloper The good thing about NextJs is that it does not force you to write backend code with it, it only gives you that option
Just curious how come in coding there is always a feeling that you need to constantly level up and a career where you need to be the best. I mean it not like your trying to get into the nba i think alot of roles the devs are not great but doing it for the money. In IT Support basically you don't have to be constantly pushing yourself and still get 100k in nyc. If you can make 100k in IT support but in dev you can make 200k but you will have to study outside of work and be stressed trying to solve complex problems. Is it even worth it if you can complement that income with a business in free time.
I think software engineering tends to attract ambitious people. For me, I've always had a drive to constantly grow. I respect others that do as well and honestly just vibe with them. Nothing is more uninspiring than surrounding myself with people who want to put the least amount of effort in.
Stress = growth. Comfort = decay.
@@DonTheDeveloper and that's why I chose this career. Same thing every time pisses me off.. No boredom on this field.
@@DonTheDeveloper wouldn't the most ambitious thing to do with software engineering skills to start a business get the most leverage for your skills and slave away at a job. like have a job and build a side saas business
@@bobdaniels3692 No, ambition can lead you down many paths. You have to find the right path for you, but no matter what you choose - don't be lazy with it. If you choose to split your time, put in your full effort towards both, given your limited time. And if you find yourself not enjoying pursuing the challenges at work and constantly growing, maybe consider a new line of work.
I feel you, I've exploring languages like NestJS, golang and Java, it looks way more exciting and challenging
I've having so much fun with Nest!
I might be off-track but my impression is that your lack of satisfaction in Frontend dev is because you have been abstracted by a framework that gets more opinionated and sterile at every new iteration in exchange of productivity, speed and standardization. It separated you from the enjoyment and excitement of crafting solutions.
Considering to switch to backend is momentarily putting you in front of a white canvas and that potential is seductive since you experienced the taste of being an artisan vs an assembly line worker. Nevertheless you mentioned Nestjs, another framework that might eventually bring you back to the same unsatisfactory position you now have reached doing frameworks driven Frontend.
Instead of choosing a framework why not keeping experimenting with Node as you are doing and stick with the basic provided libraries reducing the abstractions as long as the learning process gives you pleasure and satisfaction. No need for Express or Nestjs.
You might be slower and need to go through several iterations before achieving your project objectives but I think you will enjoy every steps. (And you could apply the same principle to Frontend as well)
Why not stick with Node? There's just no drawback of opening my mind to other ecosystems and ways of doing things. You can only grow from exploring other programming languages that have their own cultures and conventions.
Your interview with Lane Wagner got me interested on the backend stuff
Glad to hear it. It did the same for me as well. I have been thinking about this transition for a while, but there is something inspiring about what Lane is trying to do for the software engineering community. Primeagen is another one for me. Nothing is more inspiring than people who want to be really good at what they do and encourage others to do the same.
I am junior level 1-2 years of commercial experience frontend developer. I kinda wish I spent more time to learn backend, but I don't have the CV and I'm locked in currently in the frontend path. In the whole year of looking for a job I got basically 1-2 opportunities* for backend, while having 2 per month alone for frontend. As much as I agree backend has brighter future, there is no niche where people hire below 1 year of experience and I cannot afford to go to square one, especially that I actively work part time in a startup as frontend dev.
*by opportunities I mean getting to the phase of interviews and tasks
Companies 100% do hire below 1 year of PROFESSIONAL experience for both backend and frontend positions BUT yes experience at least building personal projects is going to be required. If you're not willing to dedicate the time outside of work to learn and transition, then yeah you obviously won't achieve anything different.
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
@DonTheDeveloper Well we only have one life and 24 hours in a day. I feel Im very close, I've been told a few times that I was like top 10 from 300 applicants. I want to find a developer job first, and then I will worry about the future of my niche. Thanks for replying
From what I've seen, understand how to manipulate data. Front end is simply a way to display the customers/business data.
Yea frontend stack sucks now days. Tons of framework for the same output. Some day my boss asked me why did I kept rewriting the UI for the same output just to keep up with new framework , new techic new this and that, which is looks the same in front of end user. From that day I wrote my own framework from micro framework and more towards vanilla js. I've be more productive and happy with that without felt daunting with new framework every week.
Yaaaaasssssss! Welcome to the club
I did worse, i chose backend then switched to frontend and then realised my mistake... 7 years later... problem is my company tells me if i wanna be a backend now i need to quit and reapply... and i'm not ready to give up my tenure so i'm stuck temporarily.. i've also been warned the wage would be considerably lower since i'm quitting Senior Frontend and would be reapplying as Junior Backend
I get the wage difference, but quit and reapply? That's messed up.
don't quit.
That's a set up
I agree, it seems as technology evolves it's supposed to make things easier - whereas with react it seems they're making things harder for whatever reason.
Although one point you made about how frontend is like 'the wild west' - surely this is a good thing? Because as A.I progresses and gets better this will make people in jobs using opinionated libraries / frameworks more useless as opposed to unopinionated as it's basically solved.
There are so much more backend jobs than front end. The ratio of backend to front end devs are like 10:1 at my company. And we have like 2000 software engineers.
Lots of value in a person who invested a lot on one side to hop to the other as much as that person being even more expert in it.
Passion trumps some level of expertise because otherwise you'll get burnt out.
Yeah, the JavaScript ecosystem is the wild west. There is no standards or idiomatic way of solving large web application problems like there as for back-end SOAs. I mean, there is so many different ways to build a web application, so many design considerations, so much underlining technology and infrastructure that is open-ended in its use. Functional vs OOP trends and philosophies mixed in with the constraints of the browser ecosystem.
However, I must say, when you turn off the noise from the tech-influencer sphere on front-end, you have to just ask yourself the question: "what am I trying to build". A LOT of the times, you WANT React, that's why it's so popular. It let's you define reusable front-end components with state and side-effects. If you didn't use a library, you would end up reaching or building something similar. I love front-end because I get to build amazing applications in JavaScript, the fact that we can have this application deployed in the browser is fascinating to me. Maybe you just aren't working on complex applications?
Complexity came with my previous 3 dev positions, all of which I was using React. Complexity did not bring anymore enjoyment to my work. You say that a lot of times that I WANT React. That just isn't true. I don't think a problem is using a frontend framework, I think it's the obsession to use a hammer (React) to solve almost every single problem on the frontend that's broken. I'm so tired of this cult.
@@DonTheDeveloper I'd argue nothing is broken on the front-end, it is working perfectly as intended right now for what it's designed to solve. The fact it's trying to do thing's it's not designed to solve is where people run into issues, but even then, the browser/Javascript ecosystem does a PRETTY damn good job at giving you the tools to accomplish those tasks too. I don't understand the frustration with React, React is an amazing tool even for light weight applications.
Hell yeah brother
Idk your background but have you tried other stuff in the frontend other than React? I definitely agree that JS ecosystem is pretty awful, but I think React is the main culprit of it. I personally think Angular and Vue is much better. On the backend, idk how much experience you have there but trying to create something with vanilla express is pretty similar to React. Completely barebones, have to do a lot of stuff from scratch, bring in a lot of 3rd party packages, no set standards, every express codebase looking different from each other, etc. When I first started in backend, I used express and I hated it. It wasn't until I used Nest that I actually enjoyed backend. And ofc, I checked out other languages on the backend and yea, it's so much better imo.
So, yea, JS ecosystem is not the best but React is just bad. That's my take :)
Oh, also...have you done any native mobile development? I'm just curious because I'm thinking the same thing as you, I'm pretty tired of the js ecosystem but I love frontend (parts of it anyways) so maybe IOS could be a path for me
A lot of this rings true for me as well. I do think React, specifically, has killed my enjoyment for frontend. I love HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Similar to you, I also found that I really enjoy backend when I finally replaced express with Nest.
I haven't done anything with mobile development, but you should definitely explore it. It can't hurt, and who knows - you might enjoy that a whole lot more. Try it out.
Is there any chance you could upgrade your webcam? The video quality is quite blurry, and it’s a bit hard to watch. I really love your content, but I often just listen to it because the blur strains my eyes. I don’t mean to offend. It’s just a friendly suggestion you might consider
I won't be upgrading it anytime soon. Sometimes when I make it a little clearer, it glitches out slightly. I have to experiment with it a bit more.
I have 11 yoe. 10 as front end and 1 as backend. I work in a full stack team. The pure backend teams struggle and write the worst Frontend code that you’ll find. Same for us frontend guys moving to the backend.
My conclusion is that each area benefits from having dedicated professionals. And that fullstack is a mistake if you want top quality code and velocity for big projects.
Pure backend guys*
I guess you aren't really full stack, guys... My experience is that fullstack teams are the most efficient.
No more Frontend/Backend fencing or lack of UI dev capacity, introducing artificial delays.
100% this
It's the same drama for backend too, dude.
Why so many languages in the backend?
They all can get the job done and are all very similar nowadays.
Yet, we keep getting new languages to divide the BE job market even further.
I think once you start to become more Sr, you'll realize there isn't much of a distinction between these things. You'll be solving problems at a much higher level. All these things like React and such will become minor details of the implementation.
This is true to an extent, but in the React world (React and Nextjs) I feel like I'm trying to solve a framework problem way too much, and not a business problem. React is the only area of the tech stack where I feel this way
I don't think it has anything to do with seniority. The problems you solve are different in different areas of the stack. When you have to work directly in a shitty ecosystem that uses a hammer (React) to fix every problem, and you're industry isn't that open to other tools if you want to remain marketable, that's a problem. I've found backend culture to be focused much more on using the right tool for the job than the frontend, and that's part of what I'm seeking out as well.
I prefer both back end and front end but I can't stand React, et. al. But, when I was laid off last for the life of me I couldn't find a job because I didn't know React or Angular. I could go in and teach the React devs at my last job how to do JS/TS but I always thought React was unnecessarily complex so I didn't really go in and get a deep understanding of it. So, I found a job and I'm doing Nodejs/React (before I did C#). I don't really like this stack. But it pays the bills and gets me my next job.
At my last job I mostly did C# and helped people if they had any JS questions.
On the side I develop offline first applicaitons (SPAs) using service workers to send HTML to the browser from my service worker. I use a JS library I created to make it a SPA similar to HTMX but simpler so it is easier to use.
So, in other words. I know my stuff but if you don't know React, etc then you might find it to be very difficult to find a job.
You might have struggled, but a lot of good backend devs haven't. They got really good at backend, and weren't pursuing fullstack / frontend positions. If you're actually pursuing backend positions and you make yourself competitive, React doesn't even come into the equation.
There's always a lot to unpack in individual situations, but I can promise you that React is not a requirement for aspiring backend devs.
@@DonTheDeveloper I must be looking in all the wrong places then. Because I didn't find many back end only C# dev jobs when I was looking for work a year ago.
I actually like working with JS and some front end. It gives variety to work. I just prefer simplicity rather than the modern day complexity.
There are also many bad software developers working backends. Its just that they are not visible to anyone because the only people that get frustrated by them are other backend developers.
I believe that the abstraction Hell we have entered is due to the elephant in the room: Tons of new developers don't like "coding" in HTML or CSS.
There, I said it! New developers are overwhelmingly pushed towards front-end. But they quietly discover that in the trinity of HTML/CSS/JS, they only like JS. And they like the "real coding" of JS, rather than language itself. Here comes the React library and Node framework to save them!
They will then spend more and more time making distance between themselves and raw HTML & CSS & JS. To give you an analogy: Imagine accountants that use calculators because they don't know multiplication, rather than using calculators in order to be more efficient with a concept that they already know!
You wouldn't want any financial reports or tax returns from an accountant that doesn't know multiplication. So why do many front-end developers believe that an employer would want a dev that doesn't actually understand the tool that they are using? They will just make bug-prone half-solutions.
Brother prepare yourself, it's going to be a lot of "WTF?" "It works?!" "How?!"
the thinking of frontend developers only has a UI and no backend.
I have been hired as a full stack, I love it
In this market, you have to go where the opportunities are, whether it is frontend, backend, or testing. Go where you can start earning a buck, at least in the beginning.
There are opportunities in all 3 (for new developers). If you don't pursue what you really enjoy, you're most likely going to give up before you you even break into the industry. The industry doesn't care to hire low-interest, surface level knowledge developers anymore. That time has passed.
the javascript ecosystem is one of the worst feats of engineering we have and people still dare to defend it
meanwhile full stack web developders like me: *side eye puppet meme*
You had me in the first half with backend but you started talking about backend with js 😢
Would recommend to give Laravel a try.
Can you see blazor onse?
Backend is fun.
You forgot the right angle bracket in your thumbnail 😂