I feel that mana cheating can only be fine on those big champions that basically say "if you level me win the game". Aurelian Sol is a perfect example in my opinion. He makes big cards from a limited pool FREE! But, at that stage in the game it's not broken and there is still a chance to play against it.
The best "win the game" card to me is level 3 azir. There isn't even a discount, his deck is just so obscenely high value its an unstoppable force by nature.
@@justascarecrow6988 nab is cool and all but when they play that card it wont have the same effect since it wont draw from the emperors deck for more value. 3 mana 5/4 fearsome? cool. i have two more.
@@onlinepanic2036 Ascended's call, the 10 mana spell that summons Nasus and Renekton at max level (AND rallies) is always on the bottom of the Emperor's Deck, so if your opponent nabs it its quite likely you lose the game, (at least that's what I would assume).
@@kayaek2558 emporors deck has 2 rallies. ascendeds call, and the landmark. and they really dont need rallies to win. most games where azir levels up xerath is carpet bombing people and sandstorms are wiping value off the board left and right.
I hope you guys enjoyed the video! I strongly disliked the Seraphine archetype but I really didn't want this video to sound negative, but more of a "hey this is what happened during this meta and here's what we had to deal with". This is a celebration of Runeterra and the passionate community we have. Speaking of the awesome community, here are some of the cameos, people that helped me with the script, or generally people that inspired me with their insight: TheLegendXVII: www.youtube.com/@TheLegendXXVII AlanzqTFT: www.twitch.tv/alanzqtft MajinBae: www.youtube.com/@MajiinBae PuffballPanda: www.youtube.com/@PuffballPanda Yangzera: twitter.com/Yangzera LadyPickl: twitter.com/LadyPickl Drisoth: twitter.com/Drisoth Footballhead: twitter.com/Football_Head2 YelloMagi THIS DOESN'T MEAN THEY AGREE WITH ME AND THE VIDEO, I JUST LOVE THEIR CONTENT AND WANTED TO INCLUDE THEM
@@Cheasle2 People had several reasons to hate her and most of them are justified. The one i like the most is that Riot keeps nerfing Sona and could easily used Seraphine's kit do be Sona's rework making it easier to balance.
@@euqinemor Seraphine is very far from being a problematic champ compared to other recent ones when it comes to this anyway. Also while they are quite similar, Sona is more of an Enchanter, Seraphine is more of a control mage. The issue of Sona not receiving buffs is more noticed because they look similar, but go check how many 6300 shards champs are costantly picked vs older ones. Some stood the test of time (Yi for example), but how often do you see Soraka? Garen? Ashe as an actual ADC? They aren't necessarly bad, just like Sona, but their pick rates are tanked by having similar but superior choices. I really like Soraka modern kit, but I still play Nami over her because... Why wouldn't I? Nami is strong no matter what. Soraka heals way too little compared to the average DPS these days
As a League player I think its kinda funny how I thought that this was about the League Seraphine incident when she was released. Another thing that is funny is Ezreal constantly coming back into meta because of random cards, just like how he comes into meta in LoL randomly whenever new items are introduced.
Honestly I think bar, songspinner and old ionian telsones were more degenerate than Seraphine, but yes, she is problematic. Spell champion for spell region is like putting a rabbit into australia - complete disaster. Also it's quite fun that after the nerf she became even more degenerate with Bandlephine and Seryzephine decks.
@@deshelo4343 it would be a dead card than. Imagine spending 10 mana for 3 not-so-good spells? Moreover, there were always have been spell champs in spell regions as it should be - Ezreal, Karma, Lee Sin?
@@sailorjojo7771 I don't really think spell champs being part of spell regions are the big problem. The problem is the randomness of those *new* 2 cost spells. Ok, maybe slow spell AND set their costs to 1 is a bit overkill, but the fact that they are almost totally random freaks me out, you just can't play around them (specially if you don't have the mana to do so). Besides, 2 cost spells are usually pretty decent and versatile, unlike higher cost spells which are usually good in a very specific context. In the end, you chose to play around the randomness, and therefore you must accept the risks.
@@sailorjojo7771 Yeah, I've said it wrong. I mean, Karma as double cast champion is fine because she is basically a 10 mana champion and she's from Ionia, where are no spells worth being doubled. Like, you'll get even more protection, but it won't help you to actually win the game, so you'll have to pair her with something good. Seraphine on the other hand is in the region, which benefits highly from spells (2 mana fast decimate), so she with ezreal can choose any secondary region, that's why ezrephine-noxus was so cringe.
Seraphine and her support cards should at least be region locked so there rng isn't complete bs. Also seraphine should be a 1/2 since she can lvl in deck, cause as of now she's too hard to remove for a cheap unit that can come down and allow you to vomit out vaule.
Seraphine, Fanclub President and Songspinner, and maybe some others (essentially the piltover music package), should reveal the cards they create or draw. It would be pretty favourful for the "music cards" to show off to the opponent their creations. Back Alley bar should have "new and not reduced cards cost 1 less". That way you can have fun with the "new card" archetype, but can't stack discounts with viktor, drum solo, fanclub, etc. I really think discounts + random cards is the problem. If you want to nerf discounts, fine, but I believe that in order to not postpone the problem for a new card to break the game, just freaking reveal the created cards. That solves the "impossible to play around" problem for good, even if new cards are introduced to the pool, or that stack discounts.
Totally agree with the main point. Having a deck with this much RNG and mana cheating be competitively viable is no bueno. For exactly the reason you pointed out via Rubin Zoo's tweet. It removes skill based gameplay and replaces it with: praydge they don't have some bullchip. This is the kind of deck that belongs at like a 30-40% winrate. It can still be allowed to do bonkers things, just not with consistency to make it viable in competitive play.
I actually like the idea of Seraphine, I hate how it is achieved : Mana reduction to spam spells with an Ezreal abusing it. I think if bar and Ezreal would be removed she would be an ok champ
Before seraphine got added to the game there weren't any problematic bar decks and ezreal wasn't really meta. Seraphine and her support cards are what's enabling those 2.
@@dankmemes8254 Ok, I'm talking about now. There wasn't an OP deck using ezreal at the time of her release, last time was kennen but that was a while ago.
@@travisprescott9708 while that is indeed true, the fact that Ezreal has consistently been a problem champ and attempts to break every new spell-based champion with the same boring combo has ruined what little goodwill he has by not being primary issue. IMO, him rotating is potentially one of the best ways to open up game design in the future…
I got into runeterra right during Searaphines release and there was nothing worse than dying from 15+ HP because of ezreal and burst spells. Super frustrating
I think the best way to manage this kind of archetype….well, not to have it in the first place. but since that’s never happening, make it so that every manifested card is revealed to your opponent. This will not only ease the burden of tracking information, but provide meaningful counter play windows. It will also make a lot of the more powerful cards (atrocity, vengeance, deny, stuff like that) a lot less valuable, as you would have clear notice of its existence.
I think the worst part was indeed mana reduction, most of the times mana discounts would be a late game very specific poll kind of thing, like Aurelion Sol on Celestials, or Nautilus on Monsters.
YES! YES! THIS VIDEO IS PERFECTION! Mana cheating is one of the most annoying things you can have in a card game. As a player of magic the gathering i can say that when a card has zero cost or you can play another card for free it is a broken card. If your oponnent is out of mana, HE SHOULDN´T BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING!
Well edited, well researched, and well narrated. This video had me both nodding in agreement and laughing at the dumb jokes. Super entertaining to watch, and good on you for crediting the cameos. Looking forward to more of these types of videos from you !
i vehemently hate seraphine due to the numerous controversies she stirred up with her launch in league, so frankly i'm not okay with her existence anywhere, everything you mentioned in this video was just more fuel for the fire
Ya, I stopped playing when Seraphine came out, started playing again when she got nerfed. Been playing since beta and that was single-handedly the worst experience for me.
I remember lor in 2020 being a completely different game. The limited card pool actually made it possible to play around SI removing your key cards, because you knew they had 3 copies of *kill one thing* and 3 copies of *kill all things* at most. Nowadays there are so many options of doing one thing, it feels almost pointless to play around your opponent doing a certain thing. Ionia encorporates this pretty hard with 3 seperate deny effects, but even the Tellstone set allows for so mch overload of specific mechanics, it feels uncontrollable in a way.
I feel this especially in SI/Freljord decks. They can run nothing but Kill Things Somehow and a bit of ramp/heal, then instantly win the game by dropping some high mana card. I get punished for going wide and going tall and have a very limited timeframe to win.
@@CalpolMeister just that Riot is too much of a coward to actually rotate a meaningful share of the cardpool sadly. Rotating 3 out of like 60 champions doesn't solve anything even of 2 of these champions are from problematic broken archetypes (TF and Irelia). The game needs a real rotation and it needs it badly
@@tobias97erdt its a problem of critical mass. When theres too many cards that do one thing, the deck that wants to do that thing becomes too consistant. Thats one of the issues with red gwen, theres no real bad draws in that deck
Imagine a card that increases the mana cost of all cards on the stack by 1 fizzle cards that don't have enough mana. Ez when leveled makes all burst spells fast speed to force interaction. While I'd like to say rotation will solve this I would like the eternal to have solutions implemented.
Quality content as always very good video Snnuy !! creators like you are what still making me sticking around even when the meta is ridiculous sometimes.
I remember when back alley bar was announced and sunny gave it a 1/10 rating. and then it turn out to be an 11/10 card what an insane meta we had honestly.
Meanwhile Hearthstone players watching their opponent spend 3 mana to play 28 cards that clear their board, draw half of the deck, summon huge minions with stealth and deal 15 damage to their face: "Yeah, those Runeterra problems are huge"
In the bandle expansions i used to play a catastrophe heimerdinger deck and i spent months refining and retooling it to the maximum possible efficiency, where the cards generated would be generally useful and ensuring i could keep copies of particularly important cards in order to play a consistent deck, and while i dont usually look up winrates, im pretty certain i had around 60% while climbing platinum, that deck was one of my most beloved, because it was always a close match, won by knowing how to play around the enemy and then finshing it all off with the big cat, that all ended the day sera came out, the deck i had spent months crafting was rendered obsolete and worthless and the archetype i loved, (playing around weak cards and using generation to play around my oponent) had been rendered into a braindead 3 card combo. I have not played a single game with a seraphine deck, because any version just makes me feel awful while playing it, why should i be playing runeterra when the play pattern is basically solitaire.
Seraphine+Ezreal was so close to modern yugioh, it scared me so death... At some point you just play 15 cards at burst, and end turn if your opp isn't already dead.
As a competitive player, I agree with what you said. Seraphine almost made me quit the game. When you play against her or other powerful rng cards (peak, timelines), it feels like you decisions over the game just don't matter anymore, what matters is how good your opponent can roll.
the worst metas in runeterra imo were -azirelia -kaisa post launch -seraphine post launch people argue that vayne post launch and Aatrox rn are also bad metas but they have nothing on how cheated we felt from these 3 combos. Aatrox respects your mana and gives you time to react, that is something i cannot say for the others, especially seraphine and kaisa, that would essencially burst fuck you. Finally they took some good hits, it is still frustrating when they get lucky but at least we have more counterplay now.
Extremely well articulated retrospective, and turned around at the best time given rotations are on the horizon - useful for players and devs alike, great video
I think this mentality from the devs of making something that might be really fun to play but is always frustrating to play against started back in rising tides with the nab mechanic. Although it hasn't really been meta relevant, I've never played against a nab deck and thought "that was a fun game". In my opinion, losing to your own win condition (that has been discounted by merchant) is a worse feeling than getting blown out by reggie.
Went from a huge advocate of the game in 2020 to completely dropping it early 2022. No specific event led me to give it up, but just a culmination of far too many randomly generated cards (including cards that are randomly chosen from a select pool, like Celestials etc) and resource overabundance. Not interested in playing a card game where everyone is so full of gas all the time. I need attrition. Great video summing up the history of RNG in this game. Glad I got out before Serapine :)
This video hits the nail on the head. This deck made me stop playing and while aatrox/vayne might have been stronger, I could at least know what to play around. Power level was never the problem, frustrating play pattern is.
4:24 from the card in Legends of Runeterra I see her kit needs to be reworked into a new one thats more aggressive based, making her similar to Sona but different. Like for cc she has to dash into enemies to incentives her allies to follow up or she heals allies more depending on how much damage she dealt to enemies.(Supportive Battlemage fits this idea.)
Love these types of videos. This gives me a better understanding why Seraphine was problematic gameplay wise. But it still feels that Ezreal is the bigger problem though.
I think the only problem with RNG is the mana discount. It doesn't matter if you get bad luck with draw or card generation if it's free and you can just try it again. You shouldn't be able to play 20 cards on one turn in a game with max 13 mana.
I think the mana discount to 0 + endless card draw mechanic due to doubling your card effects is what is most frustrating. Partly because suddenly opponent goes from 3 cards in hand to 9 cards in hand spending 2 mana. But also because it takes MINUTES for your opponent to do so. They keep manifesting and predicting and you get to sit there pass turn in between because you can only play 1-3 cards that turn. Even when they're absolutely 100% winning, they still take a minute for every decision and you get to play 5 secs per minute. Another nice way to nerf Seraphine would be to put a cap on duplicated spells each turn: "the first 3 spells you play that cost 2 or less mana each turn is duplicated". I'm happy with the bar nerf, it was long overdue. Perhaps adding a minimum of 1 mana would be a great way to balance, but then it has to be done on all cost reducing effects. Overall, I think seraphine and bar are in an acceptable state now. Ezreal should deal 1 dmg for any spell, he already needs to target opponents to lvl up, those spells shouldn't also deal more dmg. I think making ezreal effect burst speed is the most backward thing Riot ever did. It's a hearthstone card in Runeterra. I wish Ezreal would rely more on his nexus strike, make his lvl 2 mystic shot cost 0 mana for example to compensate for his face dmg nerf.
Same. The only reason i'm not angry about it, is because i am now having a good time playing marvel snap. So it kinda happened at the same time so it feels like more of an organic break
My favourite LoR moments are the ones where I felt like playing chess against the enemy, planing my moves, anticipating and reacting to enemy's moves while the match slowly build up to that critical moment when it all come downs to that one round to determine the winner. Too bad I think only the early patches gave me that thrill, or maybe just the novelty wears off Idk.
I might be totally wrong here but I honestly think that all card generation should be from a limited pool. Either a specific pool like Invoke or from your regions.
I agree except for the part about having faith in the devs. They've made it a little less competitively viable, but it's still just as frustrating to play against. So the game is technically better for pros but almost nothing has changed for the plebs that do most of the playing.
I don't want to be sound selfish and self-centered, but I noticed that when a champion that I hate in league is added in runeterra, it olso creates the most busted and toxic metas. Ex: I hate irelia, azir/irelia meta, always thought Kai'Sa was an horrible addition to the void (one of my favorite regions), the Kai'Sa compo meta, and now Seraphine who was universally hated from day 0, together with her package, got us the rng meta. Sorry that I sound self-centered, I just couldn't ignore the cruel irony.
i had an idea for ezreal to make his lv less toxic "when you target only one enemy target or Nexus cast a (slow skill) mistyc shot targeting the same target, if there is no target damage the enemy nexus instead" it makes the busrt damage imposible cause the skill enters the spell stack, but also makes the 2 damage happens BEFORE the targeting effect so you need to think of how to use it, and it doesn't go for the nexus first but instead try to clean you out. gives him sinergy with jhin and/or annie, and makes his level up condition consistant with his level uo form
yeah... i was 1 match from masters, when I lost to a 4 hp viktor/sera player who cycled through like 15 cards until he found the overwhelm aphelios weapon for viktor
This is an issue many games have. People enjoy the shenanigans from RNG and mana-cheat cards. So they print more! And people love those too. So they print even more! Rinse and repeat until eventually the pile hits critical mass and becomes a major issue.
The number one reason I quit LoR. I got tired of seeing thesamw Seraphine decks over and over. At least in the broken decks from the past, you can predict what your opponent can have in their hand and plan for their counters. Against Seraphine decks, you have no idea what card fanclub president just created.
I always said when I used to play champions like Ezreal or Fiora will be either always a problem or to useless to be played properly Ezreal is in what his 5th or 6th nerf and still always find a way to apear (atleast when I used to play) 1 or 2 times for year in a toxic meta. And in the other hand you have champions like fiora that need to be useless because if she is in the meta and winning usually means something its wrong
I started playing lore at launch because "it's not an rng game". Now I just don’t want to waste time on it and continue to wait until the developers wake up and remember about the aspects that were laid by the foundation of the game.
I like mana discounts for things but I feel that it should be something you need to work for, like with that targon unit. Mana cheat lets you pull off some very fun combos that do wacky stuff but if its too easy it becomes busted
I was ok during the bandle city meta. The RNG was not that awful. I mean it was strong but generating a 2 mana spell with conchologist you still need to pay the 2 mana for an effect worth 2 mana. I just surrend everytime I was against Seraphine because it was impossible to try to find what they have. I'm glad that they nerf bar keep alley bar.
back then the deck was so easy to play for everyone, nowadays I feel you really need to be good at decision-making for having the best win rate with seraphine, and yeah is so frustrating if you have the exodia combo in hand. but today is harder to get.
i read the other day that the human mind can handle about six to seven potential outcomes in considering strategy, after which it starts to get bored and give up. sera decks quickly get past that which ironically makes the game just let me do my powerful thing and ignore you, not bc it's impossible to interact, but bc it's way too complex
I stopped playing Runeterra because of the Seraphine meta, straight afther the Kai'Sa meta. RNG isn't so much the issue standalone, it was the fact that you cannot safely predict what the opponent might or might not have, because they could still play random cards from all over the game, empty their hand, for 0 mana... I wanna suggest a good solution. Make certain discounts (0 mana cards are fine as long as the yare balanced being around 0 mana) only grant up to a maxiumum of 1 mana, maining if you draw a 2 cost card with Drum solo's flow, it would go down to 1 mana instead of 0. Why i suggest this? Im taking a example from another card game i fell in love with lately, Marvel SNAP. Whilst it is controversial because it completly reïnvents the card battler genre (Or how TF you wanna call it) But has some verry carefull and well tought out mechanics. Almost all discounts (Except for a single location that is not deck-dependant, so that is just pure RNg if you will see it or not) have a MAXIUM of reducing cards to 1 cost, meaning you cannot physically cheat out cards for free if you maindeck said cost reductions. BTW Snnuy, we should talk about marvel SNAP sometimes, i think i have quite a bit of ideas that are great examples of doing cards right AND wrong. Take this saying i have "he whom doesn't learn from their mistakes, doesn't progress. He whom learns from their mistakes, progresses. But he whom, lerns from his mistakes, but also others mistakes, evolves."
I feel that mana cheating can only be fine on those big champions that basically say "if you level me win the game". Aurelian Sol is a perfect example in my opinion. He makes big cards from a limited pool FREE! But, at that stage in the game it's not broken and there is still a chance to play against it.
The best "win the game" card to me is level 3 azir. There isn't even a discount, his deck is just so obscenely high value its an unstoppable force by nature.
@@onlinepanic2036 Unless you are fighting a nab deck.
@@justascarecrow6988 nab is cool and all but when they play that card it wont have the same effect since it wont draw from the emperors deck for more value.
3 mana 5/4 fearsome? cool. i have two more.
@@onlinepanic2036 Ascended's call, the 10 mana spell that summons Nasus and Renekton at max level (AND rallies) is always on the bottom of the Emperor's Deck, so if your opponent nabs it its quite likely you lose the game, (at least that's what I would assume).
@@kayaek2558 emporors deck has 2 rallies. ascendeds call, and the landmark. and they really dont need rallies to win. most games where azir levels up xerath is carpet bombing people and sandstorms are wiping value off the board left and right.
I hope you guys enjoyed the video! I strongly disliked the Seraphine archetype but I really didn't want this video to sound negative, but more of a "hey this is what happened during this meta and here's what we had to deal with".
This is a celebration of Runeterra and the passionate community we have.
Speaking of the awesome community, here are some of the cameos, people that helped me with the script, or generally people that inspired me with their insight:
TheLegendXVII: www.youtube.com/@TheLegendXXVII
AlanzqTFT: www.twitch.tv/alanzqtft
MajinBae: www.youtube.com/@MajiinBae
PuffballPanda: www.youtube.com/@PuffballPanda
Yangzera: twitter.com/Yangzera
LadyPickl: twitter.com/LadyPickl
Drisoth: twitter.com/Drisoth
Footballhead: twitter.com/Football_Head2
YelloMagi
THIS DOESN'T MEAN THEY AGREE WITH ME AND THE VIDEO, I JUST LOVE THEIR CONTENT AND WANTED TO INCLUDE THEM
Amazing video!! very well edited and i didn't feel the pass of time until i finished it! 👏👏👏
Lady pickle best streamer. not even inclucing her twitch smh
we need more undertale music in your videos !!!
RELEASE YOUR MARIO KART VIDEOS!!!!
she should be good with decks like avatar of the tide or some control like that, not some bullsh't 20 to 0 magic
Snuuy: "Seraphine-"
Chat: AAAAAAAAAA
Kai'sa: levels
Chat: STAH GARDIAN HYA
Hillarious how Seraphine almost ruined one game and came to another just to do the same
At least she didn't ruin WR.
EXACTLY
Seraphine didn't ruin league at all, people just like to hate on her.
@@Cheasle2 People had several reasons to hate her and most of them are justified. The one i like the most is that Riot keeps nerfing Sona and could easily used Seraphine's kit do be Sona's rework making it easier to balance.
@@euqinemor Seraphine is very far from being a problematic champ compared to other recent ones when it comes to this anyway.
Also while they are quite similar, Sona is more of an Enchanter, Seraphine is more of a control mage.
The issue of Sona not receiving buffs is more noticed because they look similar, but go check how many 6300 shards champs are costantly picked vs older ones.
Some stood the test of time (Yi for example), but how often do you see Soraka? Garen? Ashe as an actual ADC? They aren't necessarly bad, just like Sona, but their pick rates are tanked by having similar but superior choices.
I really like Soraka modern kit, but I still play Nami over her because... Why wouldn't I? Nami is strong no matter what. Soraka heals way too little compared to the average DPS these days
As a League player I think its kinda funny how I thought that this was about the League Seraphine incident when she was released. Another thing that is funny is Ezreal constantly coming back into meta because of random cards, just like how he comes into meta in LoL randomly whenever new items are introduced.
Seraphine was my breaking point. I went from being a sweaty masters player to uninstalling the game and haven't played since.
Honestly I think bar, songspinner and old ionian telsones were more degenerate than Seraphine, but yes, she is problematic. Spell champion for spell region is like putting a rabbit into australia - complete disaster. Also it's quite fun that after the nerf she became even more degenerate with Bandlephine and Seryzephine decks.
Songspinner should be a slow spell and generated spells should cost at the very least 1 mana. I think those changes would be interesting.
@@deshelo4343 it would be a dead card than. Imagine spending 10 mana for 3 not-so-good spells? Moreover, there were always have been spell champs in spell regions as it should be - Ezreal, Karma, Lee Sin?
@@sailorjojo7771 I don't really think spell champs being part of spell regions are the big problem. The problem is the randomness of those *new* 2 cost spells. Ok, maybe slow spell AND set their costs to 1 is a bit overkill, but the fact that they are almost totally random freaks me out, you just can't play around them (specially if you don't have the mana to do so). Besides, 2 cost spells are usually pretty decent and versatile, unlike higher cost spells which are usually good in a very specific context.
In the end, you chose to play around the randomness, and therefore you must accept the risks.
@@sailorjojo7771 Yeah, I've said it wrong. I mean, Karma as double cast champion is fine because she is basically a 10 mana champion and she's from Ionia, where are no spells worth being doubled. Like, you'll get even more protection, but it won't help you to actually win the game, so you'll have to pair her with something good. Seraphine on the other hand is in the region, which benefits highly from spells (2 mana fast decimate), so she with ezreal can choose any secondary region, that's why ezrephine-noxus was so cringe.
Seraphine and her support cards should at least be region locked so there rng isn't complete bs. Also seraphine should be a 1/2 since she can lvl in deck, cause as of now she's too hard to remove for a cheap unit that can come down and allow you to vomit out vaule.
You are getting better and better at making these!
Proud of you
Seraphine, Fanclub President and Songspinner, and maybe some others (essentially the piltover music package), should reveal the cards they create or draw. It would be pretty favourful for the "music cards" to show off to the opponent their creations.
Back Alley bar should have "new and not reduced cards cost 1 less". That way you can have fun with the "new card" archetype, but can't stack discounts with viktor, drum solo, fanclub, etc.
I really think discounts + random cards is the problem. If you want to nerf discounts, fine, but I believe that in order to not postpone the problem for a new card to break the game, just freaking reveal the created cards. That solves the "impossible to play around" problem for good, even if new cards are introduced to the pool, or that stack discounts.
Put a Countdown on BAB so it dissipates, or disolve after playing X cards. Cant discoubt the whole store right?
@@pedropimenta896 Bar costs 7 mana now, it's too expensive for a countdown.
I think they could make bar like Sera from Marvel Snap and make it so That it cant discount card to 0 cost
That note on the right alone is such a fantastic design, goddamn. Fantastic art
0:38 dude the timing of that soundeffect in combination with your face just going into disappointment mode. I can’t stop laughing at it😂
Seracringe....
This is a very good video! So much fun to watch.
Seeing the Puffball Panda and MajiinBae in here was so cool and very funny.
Totally agree with the main point. Having a deck with this much RNG and mana cheating be competitively viable is no bueno. For exactly the reason you pointed out via Rubin Zoo's tweet. It removes skill based gameplay and replaces it with: praydge they don't have some bullchip. This is the kind of deck that belongs at like a 30-40% winrate. It can still be allowed to do bonkers things, just not with consistency to make it viable in competitive play.
Snnuy was my wonderful discovery of 2022
Every video I watch of him is so enjoyable to me, I watch at least one of his videos daily
8:25 glad to see a content creator calling out this stupid change. My respect for you has grown, Snnuy.
I actually like the idea of Seraphine, I hate how it is achieved : Mana reduction to spam spells with an Ezreal abusing it.
I think if bar and Ezreal would be removed she would be an ok champ
Before seraphine got added to the game there weren't any problematic bar decks and ezreal wasn't really meta. Seraphine and her support cards are what's enabling those 2.
@@travisprescott9708 "ezreal wasn't meta" literally the very first ever meta in closed beta was elnuks ezreal
@@dankmemes8254 Ok, I'm talking about now. There wasn't an OP deck using ezreal at the time of her release, last time was kennen but that was a while ago.
@@travisprescott9708 mid take. If you look at the history, ezreal has a HISTORY of enabling toxic decks. Can't argue with bar tho fuck bar.
@@travisprescott9708 while that is indeed true, the fact that Ezreal has consistently been a problem champ and attempts to break every new spell-based champion with the same boring combo has ruined what little goodwill he has by not being primary issue. IMO, him rotating is potentially one of the best ways to open up game design in the future…
I got into runeterra right during Searaphines release and there was nothing worse than dying from 15+ HP because of ezreal and burst spells. Super frustrating
As someone who has played card games for over a decade it'll always surprise me how often we get 1 deck formats
I think the best way to manage this kind of archetype….well, not to have it in the first place. but since that’s never happening, make it so that every manifested card is revealed to your opponent. This will not only ease the burden of tracking information, but provide meaningful counter play windows. It will also make a lot of the more powerful cards (atrocity, vengeance, deny, stuff like that) a lot less valuable, as you would have clear notice of its existence.
I think the worst part was indeed mana reduction, most of the times mana discounts would be a late game very specific poll kind of thing, like Aurelion Sol on Celestials, or Nautilus on Monsters.
when i called doom when they revealed seraphine and her support cards (especially the support cards), no one wanted to believe lol
YES! YES! THIS VIDEO IS PERFECTION! Mana cheating is one of the most annoying things you can have in a card game. As a player of magic the gathering i can say that when a card has zero cost or you can play another card for free it is a broken card. If your oponnent is out of mana, HE SHOULDN´T BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING!
Well edited, well researched, and well narrated. This video had me both nodding in agreement and laughing at the dumb jokes. Super entertaining to watch, and good on you for crediting the cameos. Looking forward to more of these types of videos from you !
Snnuy you're so on point in this video about the mana cheating issue currently happening in the game
This man could make documentaries no joke
Love the parks and rec reference snnuy 8:42
i vehemently hate seraphine due to the numerous controversies she stirred up with her launch in league, so frankly i'm not okay with her existence anywhere, everything you mentioned in this video was just more fuel for the fire
Ya, I stopped playing when Seraphine came out, started playing again when she got nerfed. Been playing since beta and that was single-handedly the worst experience for me.
Every time that classic Sunny Cyber’s World remix outro comes on you know I’m jamming out to it. What an absolute banger
Thank you for this vid! This is actually my favorite format on your channel, perfect mix of comedy and analytics
"Almost" is a mild word honestly.
Great video as always!
This was such a good video ! Very informative, and its easy to see you have put a lot of effort into it. I loved the part with LeBlanc's theme !!
I remember lor in 2020 being a completely different game. The limited card pool actually made it possible to play around SI removing your key cards, because you knew they had 3 copies of *kill one thing* and 3 copies of *kill all things* at most.
Nowadays there are so many options of doing one thing, it feels almost pointless to play around your opponent doing a certain thing.
Ionia encorporates this pretty hard with 3 seperate deny effects, but even the Tellstone set allows for so mch overload of specific mechanics, it feels uncontrollable in a way.
I feel this especially in SI/Freljord decks. They can run nothing but Kill Things Somehow and a bit of ramp/heal, then instantly win the game by dropping some high mana card. I get punished for going wide and going tall and have a very limited timeframe to win.
Thats why Rotation is on the way BAYBEE
@@CalpolMeister just that Riot is too much of a coward to actually rotate a meaningful share of the cardpool sadly.
Rotating 3 out of like 60 champions doesn't solve anything even of 2 of these champions are from problematic broken archetypes (TF and Irelia).
The game needs a real rotation and it needs it badly
@@tobias97erdt its a problem of critical mass. When theres too many cards that do one thing, the deck that wants to do that thing becomes too consistant. Thats one of the issues with red gwen, theres no real bad draws in that deck
Imagine a card that increases the mana cost of all cards on the stack by 1 fizzle cards that don't have enough mana.
Ez when leveled makes all burst spells fast speed to force interaction.
While I'd like to say rotation will solve this I would like the eternal to have solutions implemented.
I'm not really in LoR anymore but OMG those videos are always so good!!! Thanks for sharing dude
Only Snnuy could go from competitive Mario Kart to a card game (would love to see those mario kart videos btw)
I knew everything you were gonna say but still was eager to see the video. I love this breakdowns of the game, ty.
Quality content as always very good video Snnuy !! creators like you are what still making me sticking around even when the meta is ridiculous sometimes.
Wow, I absolutely adore this editing style. Really really well done video!!
I remember when back alley bar was announced and sunny gave it a 1/10 rating. and then it turn out to be an 11/10 card what an insane meta we had honestly.
Sera is what made it insane, before her it was a decent card but not as meta warping.
Meanwhile Hearthstone players watching their opponent spend 3 mana to play 28 cards that clear their board, draw half of the deck, summon huge minions with stealth and deal 15 damage to their face: "Yeah, those Runeterra problems are huge"
In the bandle expansions i used to play a catastrophe heimerdinger deck and i spent months refining and retooling it to the maximum possible efficiency, where the cards generated would be generally useful and ensuring i could keep copies of particularly important cards in order to play a consistent deck, and while i dont usually look up winrates, im pretty certain i had around 60% while climbing platinum, that deck was one of my most beloved, because it was always a close match, won by knowing how to play around the enemy and then finshing it all off with the big cat, that all ended the day sera came out, the deck i had spent months crafting was rendered obsolete and worthless and the archetype i loved, (playing around weak cards and using generation to play around my oponent) had been rendered into a braindead 3 card combo. I have not played a single game with a seraphine deck, because any version just makes me feel awful while playing it, why should i be playing runeterra when the play pattern is basically solitaire.
As someone who love the big cat before the sera incident, i feel you
Seraphine+Ezreal was so close to modern yugioh, it scared me so death... At some point you just play 15 cards at burst, and end turn if your opp isn't already dead.
As a competitive player, I agree with what you said. Seraphine almost made me quit the game. When you play against her or other powerful rng cards (peak, timelines), it feels like you decisions over the game just don't matter anymore, what matters is how good your opponent can roll.
I want seraphine decks to be actually unplayable.
the worst metas in runeterra imo were
-azirelia
-kaisa post launch
-seraphine post launch
people argue that vayne post launch and Aatrox rn are also bad metas but they have nothing on how cheated we felt from these 3 combos. Aatrox respects your mana and gives you time to react, that is something i cannot say for the others, especially seraphine and kaisa, that would essencially burst fuck you. Finally they took some good hits, it is still frustrating when they get lucky but at least we have more counterplay now.
Extremely well articulated retrospective, and turned around at the best time given rotations are on the horizon - useful for players and devs alike, great video
Man the quality of this video is crisp keep up with the good work👍
Thank you so much for saying what needed to be said! Totally agree, and you are spot on with this assessment. Keep up the great videos man.
I think this mentality from the devs of making something that might be really fun to play but is always frustrating to play against started back in rising tides with the nab mechanic. Although it hasn't really been meta relevant, I've never played against a nab deck and thought "that was a fun game". In my opinion, losing to your own win condition (that has been discounted by merchant) is a worse feeling than getting blown out by reggie.
this video is amazing, your editing skills keep getting better and better!
Top tier editing, keep it up!
Great work sun
I hope your channel with growing and also your content :)
I love you
There are many languages out there and Snnuy decided to speak in facts.
Went from a huge advocate of the game in 2020 to completely dropping it early 2022. No specific event led me to give it up, but just a culmination of far too many randomly generated cards (including cards that are randomly chosen from a select pool, like Celestials etc) and resource overabundance. Not interested in playing a card game where everyone is so full of gas all the time. I need attrition. Great video summing up the history of RNG in this game. Glad I got out before Serapine :)
These videos has insane quality well done
This video hits the nail on the head. This deck made me stop playing and while aatrox/vayne might have been stronger, I could at least know what to play around. Power level was never the problem, frustrating play pattern is.
4:24 from the card in Legends of Runeterra I see her kit needs to be reworked into a new one thats more aggressive based, making her similar to Sona but different.
Like for cc she has to dash into enemies to incentives her allies to follow up or she heals allies more depending on how much damage she dealt to enemies.(Supportive Battlemage fits this idea.)
Love these types of videos. This gives me a better understanding why Seraphine was problematic gameplay wise. But it still feels that Ezreal is the bigger problem though.
I love all your videos almost as much as i love recalling and denying.
No seriously good video. :)
I think the only problem with RNG is the mana discount. It doesn't matter if you get bad luck with draw or card generation if it's free and you can just try it again.
You shouldn't be able to play 20 cards on one turn in a game with max 13 mana.
I think the mana discount to 0 + endless card draw mechanic due to doubling your card effects is what is most frustrating. Partly because suddenly opponent goes from 3 cards in hand to 9 cards in hand spending 2 mana. But also because it takes MINUTES for your opponent to do so. They keep manifesting and predicting and you get to sit there pass turn in between because you can only play 1-3 cards that turn. Even when they're absolutely 100% winning, they still take a minute for every decision and you get to play 5 secs per minute. Another nice way to nerf Seraphine would be to put a cap on duplicated spells each turn: "the first 3 spells you play that cost 2 or less mana each turn is duplicated".
I'm happy with the bar nerf, it was long overdue. Perhaps adding a minimum of 1 mana would be a great way to balance, but then it has to be done on all cost reducing effects.
Overall, I think seraphine and bar are in an acceptable state now.
Ezreal should deal 1 dmg for any spell, he already needs to target opponents to lvl up, those spells shouldn't also deal more dmg. I think making ezreal effect burst speed is the most backward thing Riot ever did. It's a hearthstone card in Runeterra. I wish Ezreal would rely more on his nexus strike, make his lvl 2 mystic shot cost 0 mana for example to compensate for his face dmg nerf.
I can never forget loping telecscope "VA" it still haunts me till this day.
I like that in both games that Seraphine was in, no matter what she was a problem one way or another
Wanna see what Sunny has to say, Sera actually made me stop playing the game for good
Same. The only reason i'm not angry about it, is because i am now having a good time playing marvel snap. So it kinda happened at the same time so it feels like more of an organic break
My favourite LoR moments are the ones where I felt like playing chess against the enemy, planing my moves, anticipating and reacting to enemy's moves while the match slowly build up to that critical moment when it all come downs to that one round to determine the winner. Too bad I think only the early patches gave me that thrill, or maybe just the novelty wears off Idk.
Okay I'm 2 minutes into this and I'm already absolutely loving this. Great job, really :)
Cringe Seraphine: Why does everyone hate me? You are supposed to like me!
Chad Aatrox: "Come. Let me earn their hatred. Again. And forever."
YES, at least aatrox is chad when he kills you
@@arjunbaweja7755 I just want Aatrox to get his happy ending… 😢
reddit is down the hall to the left
@@EmmyOnUA-camrope chair and soap are waiting you at home
I am still in the PoC cave until Sera completely gutted
The thumbnail is sick
I might be totally wrong here but I honestly think that all card generation should be from a limited pool. Either a specific pool like Invoke or from your regions.
Also rotate Ezreal.
thumbnail looks sooo good
Content and opinions and facts aside, this video is incredible and you did a GREAT job on it. Solid work.
hope riot see this
that artstyle of the art from the thumbnail feels familiar but I just can't put my finger on it
I agree except for the part about having faith in the devs. They've made it a little less competitively viable, but it's still just as frustrating to play against. So the game is technically better for pros but almost nothing has changed for the plebs that do most of the playing.
Great video sunny!
It's why I love YGO, everyone starts with 10 mana; And bullshit just start flying from the get go.
9:10 I can't 😂😂😂😂
I don't want to be sound selfish and self-centered, but I noticed that when a champion that I hate in league is added in runeterra, it olso creates the most busted and toxic metas. Ex: I hate irelia, azir/irelia meta, always thought Kai'Sa was an horrible addition to the void (one of my favorite regions), the Kai'Sa compo meta, and now Seraphine who was universally hated from day 0, together with her package, got us the rng meta.
Sorry that I sound self-centered, I just couldn't ignore the cruel irony.
i had an idea for ezreal to make his lv less toxic
"when you target only one enemy target or Nexus cast a (slow skill) mistyc shot targeting the same target, if there is no target damage the enemy nexus instead"
it makes the busrt damage imposible cause the skill enters the spell stack, but also makes the 2 damage happens BEFORE the targeting effect so you need to think of how to use it, and it doesn't go for the nexus first but instead try to clean you out. gives him sinergy with jhin and/or annie, and makes his level up condition consistant with his level uo form
1:12 Correction: Barnes isn't an rng card because you usually only put 2-3 gaint minions in your deck along side it
yeah... i was 1 match from masters, when I lost to a 4 hp viktor/sera player who cycled through like 15 cards until he found the overwhelm aphelios weapon for viktor
This is an issue many games have. People enjoy the shenanigans from RNG and mana-cheat cards. So they print more! And people love those too. So they print even more! Rinse and repeat until eventually the pile hits critical mass and becomes a major issue.
The number one reason I quit LoR. I got tired of seeing thesamw Seraphine decks over and over. At least in the broken decks from the past, you can predict what your opponent can have in their hand and plan for their counters. Against Seraphine decks, you have no idea what card fanclub president just created.
I always said when I used to play champions like Ezreal or Fiora will be either always a problem or to useless to be played properly
Ezreal is in what his 5th or 6th nerf and still always find a way to apear (atleast when I used to play) 1 or 2 times for year in a toxic meta.
And in the other hand you have champions like fiora that need to be useless because if she is in the meta and winning usually means something its wrong
What if Back Alley Bar can only discount the cards created by Barkeep. What if Fanclub's effect only happens if player is in Flow.
Whats the song that starts at 12:12?
I started playing lore at launch because "it's not an rng game". Now I just don’t want to waste time on it and continue to wait until the developers wake up and remember about the aspects that were laid by the foundation of the game.
That's a great Thumb right there
I like mana discounts for things but I feel that it should be something you need to work for, like with that targon unit. Mana cheat lets you pull off some very fun combos that do wacky stuff but if its too easy it becomes busted
Galio dying to 0 mana ...
What has this game become ?
I was ok during the bandle city meta. The RNG was not that awful. I mean it was strong but generating a 2 mana spell with conchologist you still need to pay the 2 mana for an effect worth 2 mana. I just surrend everytime I was against Seraphine because it was impossible to try to find what they have. I'm glad that they nerf bar keep alley bar.
Thank you, for another amazing video
back then the deck was so easy to play for everyone, nowadays I feel you really need to be good at decision-making for having the best win rate with seraphine, and yeah is so frustrating if you have the exodia combo in hand. but today is harder to get.
i read the other day that the human mind can handle about six to seven potential outcomes in considering strategy, after which it starts to get bored and give up. sera decks quickly get past that which ironically makes the game just let me do my powerful thing and ignore you, not bc it's impossible to interact, but bc it's way too complex
I still feel the pain of the monster harpon nerf, its like my seju gp can't have they toys.
I stopped playing Runeterra because of the Seraphine meta, straight afther the Kai'Sa meta. RNG isn't so much the issue standalone, it was the fact that you cannot safely predict what the opponent might or might not have, because they could still play random cards from all over the game, empty their hand, for 0 mana...
I wanna suggest a good solution. Make certain discounts (0 mana cards are fine as long as the yare balanced being around 0 mana) only grant up to a maxiumum of 1 mana, maining if you draw a 2 cost card with Drum solo's flow, it would go down to 1 mana instead of 0.
Why i suggest this? Im taking a example from another card game i fell in love with lately, Marvel SNAP. Whilst it is controversial because it completly reïnvents the card battler genre (Or how TF you wanna call it) But has some verry carefull and well tought out mechanics. Almost all discounts (Except for a single location that is not deck-dependant, so that is just pure RNg if you will see it or not) have a MAXIUM of reducing cards to 1 cost, meaning you cannot physically cheat out cards for free if you maindeck said cost reductions.
BTW Snnuy, we should talk about marvel SNAP sometimes, i think i have quite a bit of ideas that are great examples of doing cards right AND wrong. Take this saying i have "he whom doesn't learn from their mistakes, doesn't progress. He whom learns from their mistakes, progresses. But he whom, lerns from his mistakes, but also others mistakes, evolves."