So many brilliant points brought up, shame Jamflex couldn't care less if their games garners new players little on keeping them, honestly. I am quite the meta slave so I've had the wiki open since my first steps off tutorial island, but to expect every player to do this is just absurd to say the least.
this game needs a system where it tells u what next ability should be used during pvm.. a nice visual of rotations.. then its up to the player to execute them. have the option to turn off or on for those who complain
I don't necessarily hate the idea of important abilities having tutorials. For instance, unlocking Greater Fury should bring up a little tooltip that says what abilities are really good to use after fury (really hard hitting abilities like overpower or most special attacks). That way a newer player can build a better understanding of how rotations work. The same thing should happen with greater barge. A tooltip that says something like, "hey, this ability is really good at the beginning of boss fights. Also, it is really good if the boss forces you to stop hitting it."
Regarding the skilltips / trees - isn't this exactly why the wiki is there and linked ingame? To prevent all this having to be built and maintained ingame? I don't think it would add much benefit and adding tips / milestones of what is the most effective or best moneymaking will make much more content actually dead and prevents players from trying stuff out.
I honestly believe that most people don't even know the wiki button is there lol, but I would be happy to be proven wrong on that account. Personally, I think having something that just says "hey, this has good xp rates" on something like menaphos fishing could go a long way to steer people away from fun killers. Personally, anything with really slow xp rates is going to make newer players not want to play the game since they'll just feel like "if this is how it is at level 40, I refuse to get 99"
@@raphtheboygenius Fair enough, perhaps my opinion on this isn't the best to take into account as I've not played a new account in years. However if they add certain things like this it would make sense to me that it's part of a skill rework, and making sure other content (e.g. fish or spots you can catch) has either another purpose (achievements or something like menaphos things) or is removed in some cases. Fully agree that some stuff is just fillers and if people know there is no reason to do them then no one will.
Question for you: I saw in a comment on reddit that necromancy was a huge negative on this game and caused a lot of veteran players to quit. What are your thoughts on this?
I know I'm not Raph but I found this idea that it ruined the game so silly. Necro made pvm more accessible to lower tiered players. I think people consider it OP because it works so well with revo. You can still put out significantly more damage with the other styles (ESPECIALLY ranged lol). Some players in the community are just whiny gatekeepers tbh
@@spartax8986 The consensus of r/runescape is that necro ruined the game because it made pvm too easy, ie all the other styles were buffed to balance the game out
@@batozorange Personally all if the other skills are better for it in that splashing ults is a thing if the past. Maybe it did ruin the game for them but I just don't feel like that's actually the case. Maybe I haven't done enough pvm lol
My personal take is this: Necromancy didn't ruin the game for the simple reason that you don't have to use it for anything (except osseous). The more complicated answer is that Necromancy did make the other styles look bad, but this is largely because Necromancy works and the other styles don't. Prior to the combat rebalancing, the other combat styles were needlessly cumbersome and made it incredibly difficult for regular players to understand how they can approach it. Even today, melee has way too many abilities that all kind of do the same thing, so it can be really hard to build out rotations and understand how to maximize your dps. Necromancy does not place that burden on the player. Every ability for Necromancy has a purpose and when you don't care what ability comes next, you press the basic attack button. This works. It is simple and effective. Now, if you are a group pvmer and groups were necromancy only, I will agree that it can be frustrating if you don't like the combat flow of necro but no one will group with you if you don't use necro. However, if you are playing solo, I don't understand how the meta effects you. Meta only matters if you are interacting with people who care about the meta. If you are sitting in a dark room by yourself killing Solak, I don't understand why you have to use Necro. You can't simultaneously complain that Necro is too easy and that the other styles don't do any damage. In my opinion, that is an admission of guilt: if you are complaining that the other styles don't do any damage, you are admitting that you like how powerful necromancy is, but you don't like that other players get access to that power. I don't even necessarily think gatekeeping is a bad thing (i.e. you probably need to be at least pretty good at the game to do 2000% Enrage Zamorak. If literally anyone can do it with no skill or practice, then what's the point), but the way people are super down on Necromancy (which, again, you don't have to use if you don't want to), just doesn't make any sense. Even if you hate the game flow of Necro, it made all of the other styles better as a consequence so, in my opinion, the game is better in every way as a consequence of Necromancy.
So I fully agree the Skill tabs needs to be expanded more because its very generic and just shows just level requirements to get to certain point. This was definitely something that was very iconic in the past that you had to explore all around RuneScape to figure out how to get certain things before everyone started using third party website guides to become more efficient. Now I have a few major flaws with this idea. The first is that Jagex should never show what's optimum because that will change as new content gets dropped making certain other content not as efficient over time. It happens all the time and its just not worth it. For example you mention Menaphos fishing is super efficient well its still inefficient compared to Dungeoneering Fishing but because its such a pain to train utilizing such an intense method most people ignore it and never gets recommended. You can't just recommend the craziest grinds just because its efficient since a lot of people don't play efficiently. The reason why I say this is because Jagex posted on one of their socials that the average stats of an Active RS3 player is average of level 60s for all skills. The other flaw is it shouldn't show what's the most profitable either since that means Jagex will have to constantly update everything to show what's the best money maker and that's not including all the boost mechanics that help for skilling like the Portable/Cape/Location and other stuff effects that drastically affect the prices if you have certain things unlocked or not. However I think there's a few ways to massively improve the interface. First is we need a search feature just like the settings to find items like you mentioned. This would enable people to find things much quicker no matter what the item is. Second, I was initially thinking we give a lot more product/item information upon hovering over the icon of whatever is unlocked which I still think they should if they have Development time but one of the best solutions I've seen is what OSRS does. They have a right click option that lets you open the OSRS wiki link to said item when you go to that level interface. If we had that, that would be massive because you don't even need to keep a Wiki Tab open and search stuff. You would just go to search feature, find the item and right click to open the website link.
So I mostly agree with you here, I feel hesitate about saying hey, this is optimal, but it would be nice if there was a tagline next to something like fly-fishing that said "good xp rates" and something next to urns that said "good money maker." It doesn't have to say that a certain thing is best in slot or that it's super profitable, just that it's something to look out for.
@@raphtheboygenius Maybe a happy median would be something where they show the input cost and output cost. That way when things change, they wouldn't need to constantly update stuff since the numbers are configured from the standard GE price. I think if they for example made urns have a buyable shop it'd ruin the whole profit margin for it so i think the input/output would be better long term.
I think for something like urns that makes sense. Maybe each urn has a cost basis of 2 soft clay and whatever the run is, and it shows how much they sell for on the GE.
@@raphtheboygenius Ya its not overly complicated where a new player doesn't get overwhelmed by information but enough to make them think, oh this is a good money maker without telling them clearly it is. I think it'll be great for a lot of different items to show the margins like that since some of the demand is insane so people merch stuff all the time with this info.
I'm actually putting out a video on monday that'll talk about what's been up with me and why I haven't been uploading. The TL:dr is that I haven't been wanting to play runescape + mental health has been really bad lately. Sanctum of rebirth is super exciting though, so should be regular content around that.
I completely agree that RS3 needs a clearer way of telling players a better way of progressing. However, i believe that this whole discussion shows a symptom that is dead content. There is a lot of useless content that shouldn't be dead, they are dead because of bad designing. I believe that even some relevant content are bad, like clue scrolls. Clue scroll hunting is boring. Players do it for the dyes, not because it's fun, and when there is an update it is some kind of step skipping. Again, bad designing! Why don't they make fun content instead of making boring stuff shorter?!? I believe that that's the deal about the EXP ratings being stupidly fast. All new and good content are for the endgame, instead of remaking a skill, they make you get to the content faster. Which means, instead of creating a good trip, they make a good destination with a lame path. I don't think that Jagex have bad designers, i just believe that any new content, good or bad, will have to fit in with a lot of dead content, or will have to come after it, and i don't know what is worse. I personally wouldn't mind having some nice content being unlocked at level 40, i don't feel like people need to struggle with the boredom of walking in the valley of dead content or AFK skilling to get to a high level, like i did, in order to reach the good stuff. I think could be something like BGH, that could be unlocked at a low level, that gets better EXP rates with the respective skill level, it would be something fun to do, accessible, scalable, and relevant.
So, I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I'm not sure that I'm comfortable labeling something like mackerel "bad design." For instance, it is entirely possible that fishing mackerel or anchovies are decently competitive with crayfish, but the levels go by so fast that actually moving to the new spot defeats the purpose of any xp gains you would be getting (i.e. since you're supposed to cook all of your early fish, maybe mackerel or anchovies aren't near any trees while crayfish are right next to them). In this case, it's actually totally fine that crayfish are the ideal training method since if you don't care about cooking xp, then moving to anchovies when you unlock them is worth it. With that being said, the skilling system for Runescape *should* have linear scaling so that nothing you're doing should feel way worse than the alternatives, so I do agree that even if fly-fishing is a little better than lobsters, fishing lobsters should never feel bad, and the issue is that it does feel bad. Similarly, you could say the same thing you said about clues but for bossing. There are plenty of people that hate Rasial, but it's the best gp for effort put in, so they do it anyway. Some people find joy in optimizing clues and getting a ton of them done per hour. I would argue that these people are enjoying themselves more than people who are grinding hundreds of hours of Rasial so they can say that they bought a partyhat. Generally, the game really starts once you're in the midgame, so I don't necessarily mind Jagex pushing players into the midgame. However, if that's something they want to do, then they really need to streamline and modernize the early game so that players can enjoy the game for what it is. If people want to look at the menus, the menus should give them useful information. The slayer menu tells you basically nothing. It tells you a name and a slayer level requirement. This needs to be better.
@@raphtheboygenius I agree with the first and third paragraph. But i think that there is actually a problem with the player mindset about the game. Players often sound kinda addicted to the game, maybe that is because of jagex business model... idk. There are videos about how to create a plan to progress your account in order to avoid burnout. It is a game, it is supposed to be fun, if you are not having fun, stop playing. I believe that optimizing is kind of a necessity in a game as time consuming as runescape, but doing a content that you don't like because it's the optimal is at least weird to me. Like, you could reach a goal on 10h of fun content or 6h doing optimal content, one option is 10h of fun, the other 6h of job. Furthermore, i believe that content creators tend to perpetuate this mindset. That is why people think they should have all BIS gear and perks to do PVM. I think you do a great job on showing people that they don't need all that gear or spend that much time to do good PVM (as example your videos about killing Nex or Zuk) Spending hours and hours killing a boss that you don't like because it is more gp/h sounds just like i said before... I'm not saying that people should quit the game or anything, just that it's better for them to have fun doing something that they think it's fun rather than doing the optimal because it is optimal. If people like to minmax gameplay, be my guest, but i think those people are more like the exception than the rule.
So many brilliant points brought up, shame Jamflex couldn't care less if their games garners new players little on keeping them, honestly.
I am quite the meta slave so I've had the wiki open since my first steps off tutorial island, but to expect every player to do this is just absurd to say the least.
this game needs a system where it tells u what next ability should be used during pvm.. a nice visual of rotations.. then its up to the player to execute them. have the option to turn off or on for those who complain
I don't necessarily hate the idea of important abilities having tutorials. For instance, unlocking Greater Fury should bring up a little tooltip that says what abilities are really good to use after fury (really hard hitting abilities like overpower or most special attacks). That way a newer player can build a better understanding of how rotations work. The same thing should happen with greater barge. A tooltip that says something like, "hey, this ability is really good at the beginning of boss fights. Also, it is really good if the boss forces you to stop hitting it."
Regarding the skilltips / trees - isn't this exactly why the wiki is there and linked ingame? To prevent all this having to be built and maintained ingame? I don't think it would add much benefit and adding tips / milestones of what is the most effective or best moneymaking will make much more content actually dead and prevents players from trying stuff out.
I honestly believe that most people don't even know the wiki button is there lol, but I would be happy to be proven wrong on that account. Personally, I think having something that just says "hey, this has good xp rates" on something like menaphos fishing could go a long way to steer people away from fun killers. Personally, anything with really slow xp rates is going to make newer players not want to play the game since they'll just feel like "if this is how it is at level 40, I refuse to get 99"
@@raphtheboygenius Fair enough, perhaps my opinion on this isn't the best to take into account as I've not played a new account in years. However if they add certain things like this it would make sense to me that it's part of a skill rework, and making sure other content (e.g. fish or spots you can catch) has either another purpose (achievements or something like menaphos things) or is removed in some cases. Fully agree that some stuff is just fillers and if people know there is no reason to do them then no one will.
"Quality of Life" update , thats what i've been expressing the whole time. Yow Jagex you need to watch this video.
Question for you: I saw in a comment on reddit that necromancy was a huge negative on this game and caused a lot of veteran players to quit. What are your thoughts on this?
I know I'm not Raph but I found this idea that it ruined the game so silly. Necro made pvm more accessible to lower tiered players. I think people consider it OP because it works so well with revo. You can still put out significantly more damage with the other styles (ESPECIALLY ranged lol). Some players in the community are just whiny gatekeepers tbh
@@spartax8986 The consensus of r/runescape is that necro ruined the game because it made pvm too easy, ie all the other styles were buffed to balance the game out
@@batozorange Personally all if the other skills are better for it in that splashing ults is a thing if the past. Maybe it did ruin the game for them but I just don't feel like that's actually the case. Maybe I haven't done enough pvm lol
@@spartax8986 From the way they speak you'd think every single veteran player agrees with them
My personal take is this: Necromancy didn't ruin the game for the simple reason that you don't have to use it for anything (except osseous). The more complicated answer is that Necromancy did make the other styles look bad, but this is largely because Necromancy works and the other styles don't. Prior to the combat rebalancing, the other combat styles were needlessly cumbersome and made it incredibly difficult for regular players to understand how they can approach it. Even today, melee has way too many abilities that all kind of do the same thing, so it can be really hard to build out rotations and understand how to maximize your dps.
Necromancy does not place that burden on the player. Every ability for Necromancy has a purpose and when you don't care what ability comes next, you press the basic attack button. This works. It is simple and effective. Now, if you are a group pvmer and groups were necromancy only, I will agree that it can be frustrating if you don't like the combat flow of necro but no one will group with you if you don't use necro. However, if you are playing solo, I don't understand how the meta effects you. Meta only matters if you are interacting with people who care about the meta. If you are sitting in a dark room by yourself killing Solak, I don't understand why you have to use Necro. You can't simultaneously complain that Necro is too easy and that the other styles don't do any damage. In my opinion, that is an admission of guilt: if you are complaining that the other styles don't do any damage, you are admitting that you like how powerful necromancy is, but you don't like that other players get access to that power. I don't even necessarily think gatekeeping is a bad thing (i.e. you probably need to be at least pretty good at the game to do 2000% Enrage Zamorak. If literally anyone can do it with no skill or practice, then what's the point), but the way people are super down on Necromancy (which, again, you don't have to use if you don't want to), just doesn't make any sense. Even if you hate the game flow of Necro, it made all of the other styles better as a consequence so, in my opinion, the game is better in every way as a consequence of Necromancy.
So I fully agree the Skill tabs needs to be expanded more because its very generic and just shows just level requirements to get to certain point. This was definitely something that was very iconic in the past that you had to explore all around RuneScape to figure out how to get certain things before everyone started using third party website guides to become more efficient.
Now I have a few major flaws with this idea. The first is that Jagex should never show what's optimum because that will change as new content gets dropped making certain other content not as efficient over time. It happens all the time and its just not worth it. For example you mention Menaphos fishing is super efficient well its still inefficient compared to Dungeoneering Fishing but because its such a pain to train utilizing such an intense method most people ignore it and never gets recommended. You can't just recommend the craziest grinds just because its efficient since a lot of people don't play efficiently. The reason why I say this is because Jagex posted on one of their socials that the average stats of an Active RS3 player is average of level 60s for all skills.
The other flaw is it shouldn't show what's the most profitable either since that means Jagex will have to constantly update everything to show what's the best money maker and that's not including all the boost mechanics that help for skilling like the Portable/Cape/Location and other stuff effects that drastically affect the prices if you have certain things unlocked or not.
However I think there's a few ways to massively improve the interface. First is we need a search feature just like the settings to find items like you mentioned. This would enable people to find things much quicker no matter what the item is.
Second, I was initially thinking we give a lot more product/item information upon hovering over the icon of whatever is unlocked which I still think they should if they have Development time but one of the best solutions I've seen is what OSRS does. They have a right click option that lets you open the OSRS wiki link to said item when you go to that level interface. If we had that, that would be massive because you don't even need to keep a Wiki Tab open and search stuff. You would just go to search feature, find the item and right click to open the website link.
So I mostly agree with you here, I feel hesitate about saying hey, this is optimal, but it would be nice if there was a tagline next to something like fly-fishing that said "good xp rates" and something next to urns that said "good money maker." It doesn't have to say that a certain thing is best in slot or that it's super profitable, just that it's something to look out for.
@@raphtheboygenius Maybe a happy median would be something where they show the input cost and output cost. That way when things change, they wouldn't need to constantly update stuff since the numbers are configured from the standard GE price. I think if they for example made urns have a buyable shop it'd ruin the whole profit margin for it so i think the input/output would be better long term.
I think for something like urns that makes sense. Maybe each urn has a cost basis of 2 soft clay and whatever the run is, and it shows how much they sell for on the GE.
@@raphtheboygenius Ya its not overly complicated where a new player doesn't get overwhelmed by information but enough to make them think, oh this is a good money maker without telling them clearly it is. I think it'll be great for a lot of different items to show the margins like that since some of the demand is insane so people merch stuff all the time with this info.
Where’d he go?
I'm actually putting out a video on monday that'll talk about what's been up with me and why I haven't been uploading. The TL:dr is that I haven't been wanting to play runescape + mental health has been really bad lately. Sanctum of rebirth is super exciting though, so should be regular content around that.
@@raphtheboygenius okay cool! Was just worried
I completely agree that RS3 needs a clearer way of telling players a better way of progressing. However, i believe that this whole discussion shows a symptom that is dead content. There is a lot of useless content that shouldn't be dead, they are dead because of bad designing.
I believe that even some relevant content are bad, like clue scrolls. Clue scroll hunting is boring. Players do it for the dyes, not because it's fun, and when there is an update it is some kind of step skipping. Again, bad designing! Why don't they make fun content instead of making boring stuff shorter?!?
I believe that that's the deal about the EXP ratings being stupidly fast. All new and good content are for the endgame, instead of remaking a skill, they make you get to the content faster. Which means, instead of creating a good trip, they make a good destination with a lame path.
I don't think that Jagex have bad designers, i just believe that any new content, good or bad, will have to fit in with a lot of dead content, or will have to come after it, and i don't know what is worse.
I personally wouldn't mind having some nice content being unlocked at level 40, i don't feel like people need to struggle with the boredom of walking in the valley of dead content or AFK skilling to get to a high level, like i did, in order to reach the good stuff.
I think could be something like BGH, that could be unlocked at a low level, that gets better EXP rates with the respective skill level, it would be something fun to do, accessible, scalable, and relevant.
So, I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I'm not sure that I'm comfortable labeling something like mackerel "bad design." For instance, it is entirely possible that fishing mackerel or anchovies are decently competitive with crayfish, but the levels go by so fast that actually moving to the new spot defeats the purpose of any xp gains you would be getting (i.e. since you're supposed to cook all of your early fish, maybe mackerel or anchovies aren't near any trees while crayfish are right next to them). In this case, it's actually totally fine that crayfish are the ideal training method since if you don't care about cooking xp, then moving to anchovies when you unlock them is worth it. With that being said, the skilling system for Runescape *should* have linear scaling so that nothing you're doing should feel way worse than the alternatives, so I do agree that even if fly-fishing is a little better than lobsters, fishing lobsters should never feel bad, and the issue is that it does feel bad.
Similarly, you could say the same thing you said about clues but for bossing. There are plenty of people that hate Rasial, but it's the best gp for effort put in, so they do it anyway. Some people find joy in optimizing clues and getting a ton of them done per hour. I would argue that these people are enjoying themselves more than people who are grinding hundreds of hours of Rasial so they can say that they bought a partyhat.
Generally, the game really starts once you're in the midgame, so I don't necessarily mind Jagex pushing players into the midgame. However, if that's something they want to do, then they really need to streamline and modernize the early game so that players can enjoy the game for what it is. If people want to look at the menus, the menus should give them useful information. The slayer menu tells you basically nothing. It tells you a name and a slayer level requirement. This needs to be better.
@@raphtheboygenius I agree with the first and third paragraph.
But i think that there is actually a problem with the player mindset about the game. Players often sound kinda addicted to the game, maybe that is because of jagex business model... idk.
There are videos about how to create a plan to progress your account in order to avoid burnout.
It is a game, it is supposed to be fun, if you are not having fun, stop playing.
I believe that optimizing is kind of a necessity in a game as time consuming as runescape, but doing a content that you don't like because it's the optimal is at least weird to me. Like, you could reach a goal on 10h of fun content or 6h doing optimal content, one option is 10h of fun, the other 6h of job.
Furthermore, i believe that content creators tend to perpetuate this mindset. That is why people think they should have all BIS gear and perks to do PVM. I think you do a great job on showing people that they don't need all that gear or spend that much time to do good PVM (as example your videos about killing Nex or Zuk)
Spending hours and hours killing a boss that you don't like because it is more gp/h sounds just like i said before... I'm not saying that people should quit the game or anything, just that it's better for them to have fun doing something that they think it's fun rather than doing the optimal because it is optimal.
If people like to minmax gameplay, be my guest, but i think those people are more like the exception than the rule.
I disagree with so much of this.