Originally this section was part of an industrial railway to Herttoniemi harbour, and later up to 00's it served as the connection from metro depot to mainline railway at Oulunkylä.
It is interesting to compare with my native Petersburg (Pietari in Finnish, if I am not mistaken). In Petersburg, trams are mostly humiliated by cars. There are no priorities on the road, the rolling stock is old (only in the north of the city), traffic lights work against trams (at Proletarskaya, due to the peculiarities of the intersection, a tram can stand for up to 5 minutes). The only sections of trams that work normally are the concession trams "Chizhik"
Ha. You can see the weird sideways wiggling movement of the tram when it runs at max speed. Possibly having two bogies in at least one section would prevent it. It feels so weird inside. But presumably not many passengers pay attention and notice.
It's known as hunting oscillation and results from lowered stability due to the tram's conical wheel profiles. You need to have conical profiles on fixed axle wheelsets in order to not derail in curves. If you can build your tracks with shallower curves, you don't need as steeply angled profiles and can drive faster without hunting, but that's not usually possible when you want to fit the tracks along pre-existing streets. You can also drive slower to reduce the hunting, but that's counterproductive to moving people around the city. Of course, getting trams with differential wheelsets would work as well. You'd just need to pay way more.
This is one of the reasons for "tram-trains". Sure you can reach top speeds on normal light rail vehicles, but comfort inside on long stretched of top speed of 70 km/h is not always guaranteed. Tram-trains use different suspension allowing them to go higher speeds (up to 120km/h) more comfortably.
@Nelchihaak This tram type has five sections. The four outer ones have one bogie each. The middle one has no bogie. Even if the bogies would not hunt at all, the sections carried by each bogie are free to swivel a bit around the vertical axis. Surely that also has some effect? If at least one section would have two bogies (as in the older Artics, and the Tampere ones), that section would be ”locked” relative to its bogies which would improve the stability of the other sections, too. At least that is my guess…
Is 70kph really fast for new stock on new tracks? The Riverside line in Boston opened in 1959. I recall seeing speeds 90-100kph on a few sections back in the 1980's, although the average was about 85. On a separate note, it'd be interesting to see how these trams handle snow. I know there're separate plow trams, but are plows ever put onto regular trams? Thank you.
It's a tramway next to a bicycle and pedestrian highway. The tramway itself is similar to Boston's Mattapan High Speed Line, the Newark Subway in NJ, and Philadelphia's Norristown Line except the light rail vehicles aren't modern day trams.
I stand corrected. The highest speed I could find was 78kph on that long coastal line in Belgium. I found references to a few systems that had a few sections that allowed up to 90_ but could not find names to correspond so that means they don't count.
T2 and T3 have a different type of tram with fixed bogies on modules 1,3,5 (or 1.3.5, 7 on T3). These are prone to yawing. This Helsinki tram has swivelling bogies on bogies 1,2,4,5, which would make them more prone to yawing, but not as bad as a fixed bogie tram with suspended sections. I think the Škoda tram for Bratislava (and the new tram for Prague) with swivelling bogies on the ends and fixed bogies on modules 2 and 4 would not have a yaw issue. The new Citadis for Paris T1 has a similar arrangement, but on different modules. It would be interesting to hear how that rides.
there is no english counterpart for "pikaraitiovaunu" so naturally it will be translated to the closest word in english. these words really don't matter that much 😑
Looks like a rail-line between Stogi-Pasanil and Stogi-Plaża in Gdańsk on line nr. 9 36:20 untill the end on the video below vvv ua-cam.com/video/TC3BqH-iCg4/v-deo.html
Nothing compared to Bratislava. Bratislava has 50 (100 if merged together) meters long vehicles and the maximum speed is 90km/h. Edit: there also aren't road crossing but underpasses and safety doors also it will be driverless
I'm sorry, but calling the line 15 "high speed" is really a stretch. On many sections the traffic on the road next to the line 15 moves faster than the tram. It is extremely frustrating to sit in the line 15 and seeing that I would have been faster in a car. If you want people to use transit, it has to at least be faster than cars. Also the 15 is slower than the line 550 bus it replaces. Does that make any sense?
for rail transport be faster than car (in rural, so 90-100 kmh) requires full scale line control, not only line of sight driving. Signals, automatic speed control, blocking, emergency braking and many many other things, allowing speed at least 120kmh on railways. Huge money, available only for full scale trains with 1000 paxes each, every 2 min next train. Other way it will be massacre.
@@AntonFetzer because they VERY want to do this. Ahhhhh our new tram! Fast! Convenient! And bike path! Ahhhhh! Not as these naaaaaaaasty ICE buses and Hellish Cars! Usual greenish nonsense.
@@antontsau line 550 was overcrowded and got stuck in traffic. You would often see multiple 550 busses bunched up in a line because traffic is inconsistent. the point of the "lightrail" was to have higher capacity and at least mostly avoid going on the same roads as cars. i'll admit the high speed part was probably mostly marketing tho. stop this bullshit about "greenish nonsense"
@kos-mos98 so instead of improve bus service they spent huge money for rails and trams with cries "trams do not stuck in traffic!" - oh yes, as they got dedicated path. Awesome. Greenish nonsense as usual.
while not the same as high speed rail and usually not as fast as a metro, some trams systems can be quite high speed in certain sections depending on the train technology used. tram trains, like those often used in German stadtbahns or some North American light rail can go at pretty good speeds for being a tram vehicle. "High speed tram" is probably referring to it being high speed relative to an ordinary tram, as this line is an orbital light rail which runs through helsinkis putter suburbs, connecting outer suburbs and multiple transit lines, hence being higher speed than a prototypical urban tram.
This isn't "high speed" at all and it shows the drawbacks of LRT as so called rapid transit. The Artics have a top speed of 80km so why on earth isn't it deployed on this mostly segregated line? Give a bus the same advantages and it would be give a much faster journey time. I can't quite grasp why LRT vehicles are given such a low top speed. This drawback is clearly illustrated with scores of Utube videos with trams on long segregated track alongside urban roads, being overtaken at almost twice their speed by buses and motor traffic. To take an example of the refurbished and so called modernised Blackpool Tramway, with its own mostly right of way, now much lauded as a shing example of up to date LRT, it beggars belief that the journey time for the 11 mile route is a pathetic 70/75 minutes. It would be quicker on a bicycle! Trams need to speed up to compete in this day and age. Gil
Trams don't need to be sped up, they just need to be used for what they're designed for: denser urban environments. For longer stretches between stops, use the good old suburban busses and trains. In my city, the trams go through the center faster than cars or busses, because they have a separate right of way with priority on intersections. Beyond the city limits, where top speeds aren't limited to 50 km/h, the busses go significantly faster, and suburban trains reach 120 km/h. I suppose the reason why low-floor trams aren't that fast is limited by some technical aspect or another, and can't just magically be fixed.
@@Scandinavian92 It's slower than the car traffic next to it on several sections. Feels absolutely frustrating to watch the overtaking cars when sitting in the line 15
@@AntonFetzer "It's slower than the car traffic next to it on several sections" Yes, it seems to be a light rail/tram line. Why do you expect a tram to go faster than cars? The only thing that is faster than a car, is a train.
so - whopping 70kmh on the best part of the route, exclusively occupied land for one tram in 15 min (or more?), no chance of expansion, divertion and anything else as this is rail... guys, did you ever hear words "bus", "car" and so on? Only "bike"? Especially in winter condition? Awesome.
From the data that I found, they have been increasing the frequency over time. From the initial headways of 12 minutes in 2023, to 8 min now, and apparently 6 min during peak hours. To provide the same capacity with busses, you would need frequencies of 4-3 min, which considering the labour costs in Finland would be rather expensive, and there would obviously be 2x the vehicles to store and maintain. So using trams seems pretty justified to me. Don't know why they use the 70 km/h as a marketing point, when regular busses can go at such speeds as well, but that's a question for the marketing department, not the planners.
@Ruzzky_Bly4t buses can be articulated with 200 pax capacity, especially if they made like trams, with most capacity standing not seating. These buses can run twice faster (not only max speed which is 1.5 = 100kmh, but all loading, congestion on interchanges and so on) so require the same number of vehicles. And, of course, they are much more convenient as bus can drive on majority of local roads after it leaves dedicated trunk path.
@kos-mos98 nope. We have tram here, pet project of Sydney major. It permanently destroyed one of main roads ANZAC pde as now it has only 2 lanes, it goes - on dedicated path! - slower than buses and it costed $3B. As bonus they regularly crash to cars, including fire truck righ in the middle of city, you can find clip here on yt. All this of course does not hurt anybody.
Beautifully filmed
The bikes, the trams, the scenery, I love it all
Emerald City.
Originally this section was part of an industrial railway to Herttoniemi harbour, and later up to 00's it served as the connection from metro depot to mainline railway at Oulunkylä.
It is interesting to compare with my native Petersburg (Pietari in Finnish, if I am not mistaken). In Petersburg, trams are mostly humiliated by cars. There are no priorities on the road, the rolling stock is old (only in the north of the city), traffic lights work against trams (at Proletarskaya, due to the peculiarities of the intersection, a tram can stand for up to 5 minutes). The only sections of trams that work normally are the concession trams "Chizhik"
Great video!
Lovley little film 😎
was in Helsinki last year, very enjoyed !😃
❤👍
Ha. You can see the weird sideways wiggling movement of the tram when it runs at max speed. Possibly having two bogies in at least one section would prevent it. It feels so weird inside. But presumably not many passengers pay attention and notice.
you can feel it but its not too bad
It's known as hunting oscillation and results from lowered stability due to the tram's conical wheel profiles. You need to have conical profiles on fixed axle wheelsets in order to not derail in curves. If you can build your tracks with shallower curves, you don't need as steeply angled profiles and can drive faster without hunting, but that's not usually possible when you want to fit the tracks along pre-existing streets. You can also drive slower to reduce the hunting, but that's counterproductive to moving people around the city. Of course, getting trams with differential wheelsets would work as well. You'd just need to pay way more.
This is one of the reasons for "tram-trains". Sure you can reach top speeds on normal light rail vehicles, but comfort inside on long stretched of top speed of 70 km/h is not always guaranteed. Tram-trains use different suspension allowing them to go higher speeds (up to 120km/h) more comfortably.
@Nelchihaak This tram type has five sections. The four outer ones have one bogie each. The middle one has no bogie. Even if the bogies would not hunt at all, the sections carried by each bogie are free to swivel a bit around the vertical axis. Surely that also has some effect? If at least one section would have two bogies (as in the older Artics, and the Tampere ones), that section would be ”locked” relative to its bogies which would improve the stability of the other sections, too. At least that is my guess…
My girlfriend says she feels nauseous in the line 15 because of this wobbling. It's definitely affecting passengers.
In 1910, before WWI , the Interurban electric
Train did 60 mph ,97kph, between Galveston, TX USA and Houston , Texas.
It was a one car unit .
Is 70kph really fast for new stock on new tracks? The Riverside line in Boston opened in 1959. I recall seeing speeds 90-100kph on a few sections back in the 1980's, although the average was about 85.
On a separate note, it'd be interesting to see how these trams handle snow. I know there're separate plow trams, but are plows ever put onto regular trams?
Thank you.
It's a tramway next to a bicycle and pedestrian highway. The tramway itself is similar to Boston's Mattapan High Speed Line, the Newark Subway in NJ, and Philadelphia's Norristown Line except the light rail vehicles aren't modern day trams.
And?
@@mikaveekoo And what?
@@EdwardM-t8p
Americasplaining.
Newest tram line in Warsaw is going to run that fast as well.
Berharap bisa ke sana
I stand corrected. The highest speed I could find was 78kph on that long coastal line in Belgium. I found references to a few systems that had a few sections that allowed up to 90_ but could not find names to correspond so that means they don't count.
What is the track gauge?
Same for the tram train in Paris for tram 11,12,13
T2 and T3 have a different type of tram with fixed bogies on modules 1,3,5 (or 1.3.5, 7 on T3). These are prone to yawing. This Helsinki tram has swivelling bogies on bogies 1,2,4,5, which would make them more prone to yawing, but not as bad as a fixed bogie tram with suspended sections. I think the Škoda tram for Bratislava (and the new tram for Prague) with swivelling bogies on the ends and fixed bogies on modules 2 and 4 would not have a yaw issue. The new Citadis for Paris T1 has a similar arrangement, but on different modules. It would be interesting to hear how that rides.
I would prefer name "Fast Tram line".
Not catchy enough, even if it's more straightforward
there is no english counterpart for "pikaraitiovaunu" so naturally it will be translated to the closest word in english. these words really don't matter that much 😑
Yes. A way for a High-Speed train is other than this.
спасибо
Looks like a rail-line between Stogi-Pasanil and Stogi-Plaża in Gdańsk on line nr. 9
36:20 untill the end on the video below vvv
ua-cam.com/video/TC3BqH-iCg4/v-deo.html
Suomi
Nothing compared to Bratislava. Bratislava has 50 (100 if merged together) meters long vehicles and the maximum speed is 90km/h. Edit: there also aren't road crossing but underpasses and safety doors also it will be driverless
I'm sorry, but calling the line 15 "high speed" is really a stretch. On many sections the traffic on the road next to the line 15 moves faster than the tram.
It is extremely frustrating to sit in the line 15 and seeing that I would have been faster in a car.
If you want people to use transit, it has to at least be faster than cars.
Also the 15 is slower than the line 550 bus it replaces. Does that make any sense?
for rail transport be faster than car (in rural, so 90-100 kmh) requires full scale line control, not only line of sight driving. Signals, automatic speed control, blocking, emergency braking and many many other things, allowing speed at least 120kmh on railways. Huge money, available only for full scale trains with 1000 paxes each, every 2 min next train. Other way it will be massacre.
@antontsau Maybe, but then why do they call it "high speed"?
Also what's the point then if it is slower than the bus it was supposed to replace?
@@AntonFetzer because they VERY want to do this. Ahhhhh our new tram! Fast! Convenient! And bike path! Ahhhhh! Not as these naaaaaaaasty ICE buses and Hellish Cars! Usual greenish nonsense.
@@antontsau line 550 was overcrowded and got stuck in traffic. You would often see multiple 550 busses bunched up in a line because traffic is inconsistent. the point of the "lightrail" was to have higher capacity and at least mostly avoid going on the same roads as cars. i'll admit the high speed part was probably mostly marketing tho. stop this bullshit about "greenish nonsense"
@kos-mos98 so instead of improve bus service they spent huge money for rails and trams with cries "trams do not stuck in traffic!" - oh yes, as they got dedicated path. Awesome. Greenish nonsense as usual.
Maybe high frequency tram line, rather than high-speed? A tram line by definition cannot be high-speed.
while not the same as high speed rail and usually not as fast as a metro, some trams systems can be quite high speed in certain sections depending on the train technology used. tram trains, like those often used in German stadtbahns or some North American light rail can go at pretty good speeds for being a tram vehicle. "High speed tram" is probably referring to it being high speed relative to an ordinary tram, as this line is an orbital light rail which runs through helsinkis putter suburbs, connecting outer suburbs and multiple transit lines, hence being higher speed than a prototypical urban tram.
highspeed with 70 km/h? I don't think so
Most trams in Helsinki average lower than 30km/h. This isn't that much faster though.. Maybe over 30km/h.
This isn't "high speed" at all and it shows the drawbacks of LRT as so called rapid transit. The Artics have a top speed of 80km so why on earth isn't it deployed on this mostly segregated line? Give a bus the same advantages and it would be give a much faster journey time. I can't quite grasp why LRT vehicles are given such a low top speed. This drawback is clearly illustrated with scores of Utube videos with trams on long segregated track alongside urban roads, being overtaken at almost twice their speed by buses and motor traffic. To take an example of the refurbished and so called modernised Blackpool Tramway, with its own mostly right of way, now much lauded as a shing example of up to date LRT, it beggars belief that the journey time for the 11 mile route is a pathetic 70/75 minutes. It would be quicker on a bicycle! Trams need to speed up to compete in this day and age.
Gil
Trams don't need to be sped up, they just need to be used for what they're designed for: denser urban environments. For longer stretches between stops, use the good old suburban busses and trains. In my city, the trams go through the center faster than cars or busses, because they have a separate right of way with priority on intersections. Beyond the city limits, where top speeds aren't limited to 50 km/h, the busses go significantly faster, and suburban trains reach 120 km/h. I suppose the reason why low-floor trams aren't that fast is limited by some technical aspect or another, and can't just magically be fixed.
it's absolutely and totally not high-speed. It's slow-speed.
It's totally as well as absolutely a high-speed tram dear Mr. expert.
@@Scandinavian92 it's very high-speed, indeed. In fact it is as high-speed as the 560 bus it replaced. Lightning fast.
@@Scandinavian92 It's slower than the car traffic next to it on several sections. Feels absolutely frustrating to watch the overtaking cars when sitting in the line 15
@@Scandinavian92 for tram only. Buses on dedicated road easy roll 90-100 kmh, if you so like public transport. Cars 130.
@@AntonFetzer "It's slower than the car traffic next to it on several sections" Yes, it seems to be a light rail/tram line. Why do you expect a tram to go faster than cars? The only thing that is faster than a car, is a train.
so - whopping 70kmh on the best part of the route, exclusively occupied land for one tram in 15 min (or more?), no chance of expansion, divertion and anything else as this is rail... guys, did you ever hear words "bus", "car" and so on? Only "bike"? Especially in winter condition? Awesome.
From the data that I found, they have been increasing the frequency over time. From the initial headways of 12 minutes in 2023, to 8 min now, and apparently 6 min during peak hours. To provide the same capacity with busses, you would need frequencies of 4-3 min, which considering the labour costs in Finland would be rather expensive, and there would obviously be 2x the vehicles to store and maintain. So using trams seems pretty justified to me. Don't know why they use the 70 km/h as a marketing point, when regular busses can go at such speeds as well, but that's a question for the marketing department, not the planners.
@Ruzzky_Bly4t buses can be articulated with 200 pax capacity, especially if they made like trams, with most capacity standing not seating. These buses can run twice faster (not only max speed which is 1.5 = 100kmh, but all loading, congestion on interchanges and so on) so require the same number of vehicles. And, of course, they are much more convenient as bus can drive on majority of local roads after it leaves dedicated trunk path.
you can continue driving bro, the tram won't hurt u bro :DDD
@kos-mos98 nope. We have tram here, pet project of Sydney major. It permanently destroyed one of main roads ANZAC pde as now it has only 2 lanes, it goes - on dedicated path! - slower than buses and it costed $3B. As bonus they regularly crash to cars, including fire truck righ in the middle of city, you can find clip here on yt. All this of course does not hurt anybody.
@@antontsau tldr?
S___U___P___E___R___B
Very nice Video! I like it!
Fantastic video!