I mean unless im very much mistaken, hailee steinfeld isn’t a “celebrity voice actress” - she’s a voice actress who BECAME celebrity, as a result of how good she is at her job. You know what I mean? Like if they hired The Rock to voice Miles’ dad, I’d consider THAT a celebrity voice actor
@@ishathakorStarred in True Grit, Pitch Perfect 2, and Transformers: Bumblebee, among others, and AppleTV's Dickinson as the titular poet, among others.
She isn't a celebrity voice actors. She is a voice actress that happen to be famous for live action first and she isn't the only one like Ashley Johnson.
Hailee Steinfeld is defintely a talented individual. i do prefer her voice acting over her acting roles like Kate Bishop in hawkeye but I sense that may be just those properties didn't use her well. she really does well showing emotion in her voice and she is a good example that normal actors can be good voice actors if they just put in the work.
haven't watched hawkeye but tbh i don't think that's her fault i think she's a good actor who just got a bad script with hawkeye. like the few clips i have watched i don't think anyone could have saved
Hailee Steinfeld has a Kick-Ass resume. Being in Two Marvel Franchises, playing an LOL Fighter, a Classic Western character, hanging out with an Autobot, becoming a writer in the 19th century, and sang in an Acapella group.
In her Arcane interview they asked her if shes every imagined herself playing a video game character and she responded that no, but it's one the perks of her job, she gets to be in so many worlds and so much unpredictable things happens to her
Also they happen to be in a beautifully animated, boundary pushing 2.5D animation that comes out of nowhere and becomes a giant hit based on a preestablished super famous franchise.
@@loper42she was type cast for Hawkeye... Coming from Edge Of Seventeen and Pitch Perfect (comedy) + Bumblebee (Fantasy) made her a perfect actress for almost any female role in MCU,
Not only is this well written and explain, it's edited well and almost every shot is appropriate exactly for what is talked about even without stating it outright. And it's like that for 18 minutes? That's effort. That's strength of presence in this world.
for a video that makes the same points, the difference between mediocre and great is weeks worth of work if not more. And this video was great! As are most videos in this channel. There is very little reason to go this hard, but I love it!
If I had a nickel for every animated character voiced by Hailee Steinfeld who are among my favourite characters ever, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but its weird that it happened twice.
If I had a nickel for every animated character voiced by Hailee Steinfeld who was painted on a mural by the character’s friend, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice.
I really love how well written, flawed and tridimensional both these characters are. In a time where people eat up any "stoic badass" female archetype who has no real personality outside of being strong and having snark remarks, these two are so refreshing to see. They're allowed to be a lot of things at once, to be strong and vulnerable, to fuck up and do the right thing, to have layers and important relationships both in the romantic and platonic sense. They are what we should aim for when we talk about well written female characters.
Very few people genuinely "eats" that archetype. The problem is people tend to want to defend it from misogynists, and then those defenses get out of context, and become un-nuanced through the internet, and then that leads to statements such as this. People don't like it, but some of the reasons people don't like it, cause others to defend it with their life.
@@user-th1pv6ks5oI get defending them from misogynists. There's hardly any female character I don't enjoy, only if they're bigoted or completely devoid of any traits. But I do believe a lot of people DO accept the bare minimum or don't even see it as bare minimum. Some of my favorite characters of all time are poorly written female characters victims of the misogyny of their writers, I can admit that and still enjoy them while also projecting better things into their characterization. As you said, I think it's important to separate bigotry from constructive criticism. And sometimes as a way of defending a character from a misogynistic narrative people tend to not want to criticize them at all. So it's tricky like that when it comes to having nuance, I agree!
And male characters! I think part of the reason these female characters rock so hard is society is STILL struggling with letting male heroes show emotional vulnerability (protip: murderous rampage is not a healthy expression of grief -- looking at you, John Wick).
@@sydney2396 To be fair... *_They killed his dog._* A puppy, no less. And that was only in the first movie. The next few movies are just other folks trying to pull him back into that dark world, when he just wants a quiet life with his dog. He was perfectly fine chilling with his dog, taking his car out for a drive, and by the end of John Wick he was prepared to go back to that quiet life. But some dingus just had to ruin it.
@@user-th1pv6ks5oit's kinda the weird situation where the character is too flawed and you want to actually say something, but Mr. Skinhead next to you is shouting out slurs at the same character, for all the wrong reasons lol. Because they're more vocal about their hate, it's easier to single them out as the basis for all hate that character is getting. And those who tend to defend the character are the ones who are....like a normie; in the sense that they can't do critical thinking. It's like with Castlevania's Annette. Like I don't really like her, or how they messed up her personality for 75% of her runtime by making her a brat....but I literally can't give an explanation without the fans who "eat her up" lumping me with thr vocal racists all hating on her just because of th3 raceswap. It's a lose-lose situation. We even see it with actual creators lumping any and all criticisms to their characters as "you are all racist/incels" example, Seth Rogan saying that, when he called out how unlikeable the main character was in that godawful Christmas cartoon series he made.
Hailee Steinfeld is the gold standard for who screen/stage actors should look to when faced with a voiceover role. She just makes voice acting seem so natural and effortless. I hope that more animated movies take this into account rather than having big names to pull in audiences! All actors can lend their voices in animated movies, but voice acting certainly seems to require a wholly different approach.
I just rewatched it two weeks ago, it's too good. I can definitely say that after the 50ish time watching I'm starting to get numb to the ending. 😅 All jokes aside can't wait for season 2.
hailee steinfeld is one of my favourite celebrity voice actors - she's very well cast in both cases and i love how her softer voice offsets the tougher appearance of the characters she plays. i think that's exactly what she brings to these roles, adding to that careful balance both vi and gwen have between masculinity and feminity, strength and tenderness, through how her voice contrasts their outward presentation.
I'm currently writing a story about two brothers based on my relationship with my sister. After seeing this video, I realize I'm writing them so similar to this archetype you're explaining. (which is why I love arcane and spiderverse SO much). This was so helpful, thank you!!
oho? Best wishes on that. There are many great examples of beautiful writing and beautiful characters it's a nice age to be alive in terms of that. What would the name of your book be if you don't mind sharing? l would love to look forward to it
Is slightly unrelated but thought you'd enjoy it because it's one of those little details that help a lot in building the characters but observe how spider-gwen uses her webs against her father. It's constantly keeping him away, restraining, limiting but then when they have their heartfelt confession she finally brings them together with it
@@schnee1Schnee taking notes faster than Andrew Garfield’s Gwen getting her neck snapped. We still have no solid idea that Hailee’s Gwen is safe from this fate💀
Impeccable intro! Both Gwen & Vi are two of my favorite recent animated characters so just really glad for a video on them both. It is absolutely amazing that they're both voiced by Hailee Steinfeld tho.
No side shave, yet the character we deserve... The character that made Hailee Steinfeld. Book smart and articulate yet highly naïve. Tough and courageous yet headstrong and reckless. Stoic at times yet emotionally expressive and vulnerable at other times. Lost her father yet gained a protector in Rooster Cogburn. Ladies and gentlemen... MATTIE ROSS FROM TRUE GRIT! In all seriousness, many of the admirable traits and character arcs of Gwen and Vi were found in Hailee's fateful silver screen debut (and written in the source material from the 1968 novel). Without Mattie, there would be no onscreen appearance of Spider-Gwen nor Vi...
schnee: Should I do another Spider-Verse video or one for Arcane also schnee: Both. Both is good Thank you for your videos, schnee. I love your analysis into character arcs and development; to me character arcs make or break a story and your videos do a great job on what works and the moving pieces that make them tick. I have a lot to learn to being a writer. thank you for another lesson, sensei.
I'm so glad that this character type is emerging in the modern day. One of the problems with writing female characters is that history is dominated by only male characters, and writing is based on past writing. So authors and creatives have a vast swath of male archetypes to play off of and remix, but they really only have like three character types for female characters eg the madonna whore dichotomy. It's been a rough start for the past 20 years, (lots of female characters who are just gender swapped men, lots of seductresses 'but they're empowered because they can control men for power,' lots of 'and she's our token girl character who'll act as the heart of the group,' lots of girlbosses), but I feel like we're finally reaching a point where we're actually making something new that'll inspire new writers to write/remix girl characters!
I relate to these girls so much because... I am these girls. Maybe not in the sibling dynamic, but in the emotional struggle for self worth and failing and picking myself up when the world knocks me down. And hardest of all, for picking myself up even when I knock myself down.
Completely off topic, but I wrote about you and your video analysis for my college essay over a year ago. They have a roughly 50% acceptance rate. Fast forward to now, I attend that university. Thank you for the time and effort you put into your videos. It is an entertainment and delight like no other. I like to tell people this channel got me accepted. Can’t wait for the next one.
00:00 🕰️ The video discusses the appeal and structure of a specific character archetype played by Hailee Steinfeld. 00:44 🏋️♀️ The character archetype is a strong, athletic female lead with a distinctive appearance, such as a pink side shave, who excels in combat and urban traversal. 01:28 🗡️ These characters often have a special bond with a younger character, acting as a protector and mentor figure. 01:57 👨👧 The archetype features tough yet emotionally vulnerable characters, comfortable with subtle gestures of affection. 02:24 💪 The character's strength, both physical and emotional, plays a crucial role in their development and overcoming challenges. 03:34 🎭 The character embodies a balance of feminine and masculine traits, protecting others while also needing protection. 04:15 🌟 The initial trajectory of the character, as seen through the eyes of a younger character, is subverted, leading to deeper character exploration. 06:09 🔄 The character's initial understanding of success and growth is challenged, leading to a more complex and meaningful journey. 07:32 🔄 The character's development involves confronting emotional challenges and embracing their true identity, not just physical strength. 08:55 👥 The character's strength is deeply connected to their relationships, emphasizing the importance of interpersonal connections in their story. 11:01 🎭 The character oscillates between projecting confidence and revealing vulnerability, creating a multi-dimensional portrayal. 12:25 🔗 The character's strength creates both triumphs and challenges, demonstrating that it's a double-edged sword. 13:07 🔄 The character's strength is driven by their goal of protecting loved ones, highlighting their dedication to relationships. 14:32 🔄 Avoid common pitfalls by giving your female character flaws, making them fail, and showcasing their emotional depth without fragility. 15:56 👥 Establish the character's strength as an integral part of their identity, reflected in their actions, relationships, and personal goals. 17:05 👥 Connect the character's strength to their relationships, ensuring that it serves a meaningful purpose in their journey.
The oddly specific parallels that matched nearly beat for beat was just perfect. The way he presented it made me feel that there were some larger underlying ideas that made these characters so similar but not identical at the same time, and it was what kept me engaged with what on paper should be a very specific and niche video.
It bugs me that nobody complains when James Bond or any of countless other male characters is written with a flat character arc and no weaknesses, only when female characters are written that way. This walls off a vast segment of the story space where we drop a badass into a situation and let them work and makes it male character only. And what boggles my mind is everyone just goes along with it. But anyway thanks for this analysis. It actually helps with a story I'm working on. Awesome!
James Bond has been portrayed by many actors with many directors and writers over the years with inconsistent quality control. The Daniel Craig movies do portray a much more layered character with strengths, weaknesses, struggles, vulnerabilities, etc.
@@ribcagesteak look up "flat charachter arc." It's a longstanding way of writing a character. How does John Wick meaningfully change over the course of a film? Indiana Jones? Most characters portrayed by Arnie, Clint Eastwood, etc. It's ubiquitous. But it's only allowed for male characters.
@@j.f.fisher5318 Who says it is only allowed for male characters? There are tons of film critics who discuss these things. There is a reason why dramatic movies generally get more Oscar buzz/awards than action movies. Majority of critically aclaimed performances and awards go to dialog heavy performances with deep character development regardless of male or female. Critics for decades have favored dramatic performances over action heroes. Also, compare Clint Eastwood's performances in more drama heavy movies like Unforgiven or Gran Torino vs more action focused and less dramatic spaghetti westerns. There are clear and intentional differences in the writing and development of the characters. Also Arnie's performance in Terminator 2 and character arc is quite dynamic and underrated in this respect. Not a flat character arc at all.
@@ribcagesteak Don't pretend to be naive. There's too many videos to count attacking any movie with a female lead written that way. But nobody complains about movies with male characters written that way - and they shouldn't. John Wick for example is a great movie. He doesn't need to discover some philosophical whatever about being a complete person and it wouldn't make the movie better if he did. But at the same time complaining when female characters are written that way is bullshit.
@@j.f.fisher5318 Who's the one being naive? I don't put much stock in random internet opinions and bad takes. I only value the opinions of those who study film seriously (either as a hobby or professional). There is no "rule" amongst serious cinemaphiles that allow for "bad" male characters and are biased against the same traits found in female characters. Sure, if you consume the opinions of random internet trolls you will find an abundance of bad takes. I don't take those seriously. If you can point to an abundance of credible critics (hobbiest or professional, those with proven knowledge of film making and not some random youtuber pretending to be a critic) that place b movie level male action stars on the same performance level as The Godfather, than I'm all ears. That simply is not a consensus among those serious about film. Casual fans, maybe.
watching this honestly made me realize how much inspiration i got from these characters, i knew it was definitely similar before but i think these characters had a bigger impact on me than i thought they did
12:20 I actually never caught this point, but it makes so much sense now that you pointed it out! I think it’s because I play League of Legends, so when Powder used the hextech bomb and it slew her friends and alienated Vi, it wasn’t an “I never saw this coming” moment but a “so this is the catalyst”. The most surprising part for me was the first three episodes because I was already familiar with Jinx thanks to LoL, and Powder came as a huge shock.
"Protective and Strong in a wrong way" is a very nice way to put it. If we are to expand a bit further and consider more mature characters like Maiev in Warcraft or Lae'zel in Baldur's Gate 3, we improve the blueprint a little. We can define these characters as fiercely protective not only to their close ones, but to the broader things like their people at large, their leaders, their cause, or even antagonizing a certain other character and making them the end goal (which also works with more evil aligned characters like Sylvanas and Minthara), with a bonus in form of existential crisis after said character is defeated. There is enough variety in setting up such character, but I see that most of them develop that 'false strength' as a reaction to a severe trauma that sometimes occurs even before the story starts. Either that, or a harsh, spartan upbringing, or even both! Then we see that false strength lead them to even bigger failures before they restart and probably right the wrongs by breaking the chains / uprising against the false cause / coming at peace with their antagonistic urges and therefore regaining a respected position in their society / developing great relationships with their allies. Long story short, go play some videogames, there's plenty of good stuff to analyze too! Now I'm thinking about similar arcs with more feminine and less side cut girlboss characters, like Jaina or Shadowheart, which also creates pretty interesting food for thought about mistakes of the past, agency and powerlesness. Oh, and voice actresses like Debi Mae West and Devora Wilde are absolutely killing it for their characters and certainly deserve more love and attention as well!
Schnee, it never occurred to me how similar Vi and Gwen’s stories are, despite watching arcane earlier this year. Also, it is funny how a significant part of the video is just (rightfully) praising Hailie Steinfeld, she does a great job as both Gwen and Vi.
I've been saying I love Vi and Gwen for the same reasons literally since I first found out Hailee voiced Vi but holy shit I never realized they were *that* alike Also schnee if you're seeing this I love your video essays so much and this one is no exception. Keep up the great work!
A part of me wants schnee to make a video analyzing the importance of animating Imagine Dragons into Arcane just to see what he can deduce from it. But in all seriousness, your videos and analyses have helped RESHAPE what I write to where whenever I'm in a rut, I just re-listen one of your essays. Thank you, man. You’re the professor I never knew I needed. Take care.
I think what's really interesting is how both of these properties pull this "character you thought had their life figured out actually doesn't" trick for *so many characters* - on the spiderverse side there's gwen and aaron and peter and kind of hobie and miguel. for arcane they do this with vi and vander and heimerdinger and kind of silco. it's a writing trope that can get a lot of mileage
Haha, this was great! I love how Hailee plays both of these characters and I love them both. You did a great job of breaking down those 4 tips and exploring how Vi/Gwen avoids the pitfalls of so many female characters
These girls were also, in a way, the “first born” of their families in their world. They used to be the little sibling but had to step up with the strengths they had and learn more on their own. Or if they were lucky, have a mentor to give direction. (But then the mentor tragically leaves them too. Leaving them almost right back where they started, alone. 😭 and they have to find some other way forward.)
really makes you think that 2 of the best written female characters ever in animation are voiced by the same person and have tons and TONS of similarities really makes ya think....
i am so excited for the next season of arcane about 50% excited for the new plot, and the other 50% for a new wave of schnee arcane analysis videos :D seriously, i learn so much about story telling from your videos (and not just the arcane ones) and also, you talk with so much passion about all these details i would've never figured out myself... it's amazing good work
i love the idea of making a character's strength their flaw. i never thought about it like that but its very useful advice. also a big part of why these characters (and all the other good ones) work is that they arent afraid to be women. they dont try to make femininity a bad thing they just dont define them by a steriotype. they are more "masculine" in a lot of ways but not for the sake of saying hey look girls can do it too. they do have that natural feminine side they're just not as traditionally womanly as a lot of other characters. they feel like what real tomboys are like when you know them irl. they feel like REAL HUMAN PEOPLE
(sorry for my bad english) please do an analysis on simon pretikov, this is the character with the deepest development story in Cartoon and the most tragic history, specially now with the fionna and cake series you can see how much this character is important for the all plot and history in adventure time. his my favorite character right now when i noticed how much he sacrifice and suffer for the people he loved, is almost how all the years of making these series of adventure time was just for you cry seeing what simon represent and do in the series
This is another example of how female characters can be different from male characters. Gwen & Vi have both been parentified, made to grow up fast. They've had to step into adult roles, the superhero, the co-parent. They're confident, and have greater talents that are seen as skill by those around them. The reason they seem adult is they've had to craft that image. It's not entirely their fault (it's not their fault) that the adults around them didn't question it, and didn't or couldn't make sure they had real childhoods. So they're unprepared when they're forced to realize they are not adults. They need to know people won't leave them if they're vulnerable and soft, that their tenderness won't require them to give up the strength they've been forced to forge out of their trauma.
I love Vi because she has all the confidence and swagger that I WANT, and all the emotional connections and pain that I FEEL. There's something external and something internal, a want and how I relate. (She's also hot, I can't pretend that doesn't play a part in why I love her).
I literally always thought they were so similar, even outside of Hailee. I was thinking of talking about it, but I was too lazy to do an essay about it. Glad someone did it for me.
It is AMAZING how you're able to analyze the elements of a story in such great depth. I would love to know how you go about doing so, in what specific way you look at a story to get such a good hold of it and its characters.
like the other reply said, he already made like a 2-hour long video about how he goes over stuff, how/where he learned to, and more. Its a really good vid
Me and my bro LOVED ARCANE AND SPIDER VERSE. We just finished binging the ARCANE series yesterday. AND IT HIT THE SPOT!!my bro LOVEs Gwen Stacy and she was his fave in spider verse movies. And in ARCANE Vi was also his fave character. Also did I forget to mention that me as a girl had a HUGE crush on both these character??!!!
After watching this, my brain can't help but think that the Gwen/Vi and Jinx/Miles dynamic works is because the dynamic is an encapsulation of "the five(six) man band" into two characters.
the amounts of parallels you rattle off is crazy i just started laughing at some point, and picking out every scene from both films, yeah these characters ARE exactly the same huh
Just realized I can apply this to a couple characters I’m writing that have a kind of Eda/Luz dynamic, but I didn’t want the mentor character to be as much of a caricature as Eda could sometimes be (since The Owl House was a comedy kids show among other things). Making the mentor character more like these Hailee Steinfeld characters can add some much needed weight to the mentor’s narrative, and I had a tragic twist in mind for the apprentice character which works well with all the stuff you comment on about Miles and Powder.
Both are some of my all time favorite characters!!! I love the parallel scenes in the beginning- I didn't realize how similar/shot for shot their arcs/personalities were I'm actually going crazy
Hilariously accurate title 😂 thank you for the hard work and insightful character breakdowns! This video helped give me some direction for my own flat feeling goal-less characters. Loved how a well written character type can help you learn about character writing in general!
I remember reading Ender's Game as a kid, and just being gobsmacked by how awesome Petra Arkanian was Then as an adult, decades later, I watched and was pleasantly surprised by the film Thing is They cast Hailee as Petra, and she should've absolutely stolen the show. But they did, like, nothing with her A solid 4/5 that had no right not to be a 12/5
I have seen both of these stories and man, I didn't know that Hailee's character played the exact same role. I was blown away only a few minutes into this video. The writers did an incredible job at writing these characters and Hailee made sure they sound as badass as they can get. I hope directors don't overuse this character in the future
Gender roles shouldn't be a rigid box. People should explore the parts of who they are no matter if they are "traditionally feminine" or "traditionally masculine". This works in real life and it works when you have a well-written character in fiction.
God, someone finally gets it. THIS is the anatomy of a compelling character. Just make them multi-dimensional. Give them stakes, make them flawed, put them through the grinder, have a foil, and let them learn and work through their mistakes.
This video helped me realize how much i relate to both Gwen and Vi. I'm a transfem older sister so most of my life I've spent being a stoic protector but in the last couple of years I learned that that supressing emotion is not strength. My character development is all about abandoning the masculine "strength" that I thought I had but never helped me and replacing it with a more emotional, feminine vulnerability that is supported by my relationships (younger sister and friends). These two characters are probably my favorite of all time and the reason, more than I realized before, is because they exemplify all the traits that I aspire for while struggling with very similar problems as I do. I find myself wishing I could be them because I relate to them so much while aspiring to be more like them. Thanks for this amazing video! Your character videos are always top notch and learning more about the characters I love helps me to understand more about myself.
Also my dad is a role model to me but I also have a lot of disagreements with him, very similarly to both characters. Although my mom is still around, I don't have a good relationship with her and she mostly opposes my development as a person so only having a dad you look up to is still something I relate to these characters
Your obsession with both Spider-Verse and Arcane is honestly a mood. I'm convinced that whoever made Across the Spider-Verse definitely took some inspiration from Arcane. It's not a bad thing, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case.
your video essays are actually one my favourite things ever like my jaw droppeddd during the breakdown of their character arcs, great analysis as always
Very interesting video! I quite liked that you generalised your advice a little bit more towards the end for other kinds of stories, since it would be a bit weird to focus entirely on writing a specific character archetype :P To play devil's advocate a bit, while I can certainly see the many parallels you've brought up between Vi and Gwen, it's also worth pointing out that while they fall into fairly similar character archetypes, they're actually fairly different characters with different personalities and different character arcs. Which isn't a bad thing, it shows that this character archetype has quite a bit of variety to it and that there's many interesting ways to do a take on it! For instance, I definitely think a lot of what you said about overprotectiveness and looking up applies more so for Vi's arc than for Gwen's arc, since the parallels of a younger character are significantly stronger for someone who's literally a younger sibling than a same-age character from another dimension. Vi is significantly more protective and laser-focused on keeping her younger sister safe, even to the point of not fully understanding her transformation into Jinx (as we see in ep. 9). While Gwen does have a similar level of focus towards Miles, it's less of a protective angle and more of a desire for companionship (and attraction), and while the protective angle comes up a bit in the first movie, it features significantly less in the second movie, since she sees Miles as more of a peer even in the first movie, and even more so in the second movie where Miles has caught up in proficiency as a spider-person. This also comes from the differences between their respective character arcs and motivations. Vi's main character arc throughout the first season is mainly focused on the desire to protect her sister and reconnect with the people she cares about most, and this overprotectiveness of her sister and the short-range love she has for those immediately around her means she's quite flexible when it comes to ideology, since the only thing she really cares about is the people she cares about most, even to the point where she works with Jayce from the Piltover Council (something younger Vi thought she would never do!). Finding and saving her sister is pretty much the only thing that remains constant in Vi's mind from episodes 4-9. In contrast, Gwen's arc focuses a lot more on her loneliness and fear from losing her best friend early in life, and her inability to truly connect to anyone, which isn't helped by her father hunting down her superpowered alter ego. Unlike Vi, who doesn't really face loneliness and connection issues (she's often the first person to break the ice amongst initially skittish people like Jinx and Ekko!), Gwen definitely faces issues with connecting with people, but her pent-up strong desire to find friendship anyway is what drives her arc and relationship with Miles. These different arcs and personalities also lead to them pursuing relatively different actions. Vi remains laser-focused on the small-scale and personal goal of finding and saving her sister from ep 4-9, which contrasts neatly with Caitlyn's more broad perspective of wanting to solve the Piltover-Zaun problem, and this leads to her seeming to flip sides or ideologies quicker than expected, especially when it seemed like she was so resolute and idealistic in her younger years. In contrast, Gwen externalises her issues by focusing mainly on "saving everyone else", since she's more in control when she's swinging around as spider-woman than in her daily life as regular Gwen due to her issues of connecting with others. It's only when she meets Miles that she starts narrowing her focus back on individual interpersonal relationships, and it takes the entire second movie for her to resolve her indecision and conflict between her role in the spider society and her relationship with Miles and decide to fully commit to saving her relationship with Miles, when she finally realises she can't do both the spider society and her relationship with Miles and she realises she cares more about Miles than anyone else in the multiverse. This is in quite stark contrast with Vi, who starts S1 being overprotective of Powder and ends S1 being somewhat overprotective of Jinx (or the Powder she misses), with the only thing changing in between being what she's doing to meet that goal. There's also differences in how they tackle problems. Vi tends to pick the first, simplest and most direct solution to a problem, which usually involves hitting the problem really hard. She also tends to pick it without much hesitation. See: Her desire to revolt against Piltover in ep. 1 and 2, her first reencounter with Sevika in ep. 5, her suggestion of beating Silco in ep. 8, and her subsequent rampage in ep. 9. This even extends towards relationships, where she's often quire direct towards people! That makes sense, considering that's what she's good at and her relatively direct character, but this direct approach often causes her problems in a world where the situation is often nuanced and the solution is often not violence. In contrast, Gwen is almost on the other side of the spectrum - Her entire arc in the second movie is her remaining indecisive on how to deal with her complex situation regarding her father, her place in the spider society, her relationship with Miles and the knowledge she holds about canon events and Miles being an anomaly, and only figuring it all out when it seems like it's too late. She's significantly less direct than Vi in first confronting a problem (see how she avoids the issue with her secret identity with her father until it's almost too late, or avoids the entire conundrum with the spider society and Miles until it's almost too late), and being direct and punching things isn't really her first approach towards a problem. If anything, both characters could learn something from each other on tackling problems! Vi might benefit from a broader perspective and a bit more thinking time when dealing with the complex problems in the Arcane world, and being direct and realising what she cares about most might have saved Gwen quite a bit of suffering in ATSV. Miles and Powder / Jinx also play fairly different roles in Gwen / Vi's respective arcs, despite their similarities as the "younger character looking up to the older character". Powder / Jinx initially acts as the younger, less experienced sister that Vi feels genuine overprotectiveness towards, and the main conflict and arc later in the season is the disconnect between Vi's image of Powder in her mind and the different person Jinx has grown into. Even by the end of the season, it seems like Vi still hasn't fully internalised what's happened to Jinx. In contrast, Gwen has a pretty accurate read on Miles from the start, since she got to see Miles even before he got bitten by the spider (this is in contrast to Miles, who only got to see the cool, spider-woman side of Gwen in the first movie and only got a glimpse of her torrential inner world and daily life in the second movie). There isn't really the same level of disconnect between Gwen's imagined version of Miles and the actual Miles, besides mentally updating that Miles is significantly more capable 1 year and 4 months later. In contrast, the main role Miles plays in Gwen's arc is initially as a peer and companion that Gwen strives to have, and later as an inspirational figure when he takes a direct, confrontational approach against the spider society in contrast to Gwen's indecision. Thus, Miles and Gwen end up swapping positions from ITSV to ATSV, with Miles initially looking up to Gwen as inspiration for being a really cool and capable spider-person when he was just bitten in ITSV, and Gwen looking up to Miles for being so direct in fighting for what he cares for above all else and challenging the status quo by the end of ATSV. The themes of the arcs are fairly different as a result, since the disparity in the character view is absent from the spiderverse and the role-swapping plays less of a role in Arcane. As such, these two plot structures end up differing a fair bit, despite their somewhat general similarity of a younger character initially looking up to an older character, then the older character failing and having to learn something from the younger character. I do think both characters are really interesting, different yet fairly similar takes of this character archetype though! I like that Vi is the more direct interpretation of the "strong female character", with her being direct and often using her strength as a first resort to solving problems, and yet having interesting emotional depth that's complemented by her interactions with the characters around her. In contrast, I also like the slightly different take for Gwen's character, that being someone who's extremely capable in her powerful alter ego, but whose strength does not help her in dealing with what she cares about most and her most pertinent, complex inner struggles, leading to rich, internal conflict that spills over to external conflict with others and even the alter ego life as a result. I think the many parallels and lessons you've drawn from these slightly different interpretations of similar character archetypes is really interesting and useful for writing interesting and compelling "strong female characters" better! I also agree with you on the "no way my 2 pieces of favourite media in the past 5 years had the same character archetype played by the same voice actor", I was initially surprised by how much depth Gwen's arc had in ATSV and I was wondering why nearly every other "strong female character" I could think of didn't have nearly as interesting or compelling an arc as Gwen, and subsequently watching Arcane was a breath of fresh air with all the characters having so much depth and being so well written!
"if i had a nickle for everytime hailee steinfield played a 0:03 - 1:59, i would have two nickles, which isnt a lot, but it is weird that it happned twice"
Your skill at both analysis and presentation is truly enviable. The way you approach complex, nuanced topics seems to draw out all the threads that swirl around in my head in an abstract soup -- but then you weave them into an ordered tapestry that anyone could appreciate. It's the difference between being simply *perceptive* and being *scientific*.
HOLY FUCK i feel SO seen by these female leads. There is some much representation for females who are VERY feminine or VERY masculine but this this is the first time i've resonated with the female leads. Slow romance life, intense principles, hardcore abt what they believe in fighting for what they think is right, vulnerable with their loved ones (sometimes), protect (i am a big sister and absolute treasure mah lil bro)
Only the first minute, I already have to write this comment: I really enjoy how you put side by side, all the shots with similar angle, shot size, or vibe, it really gives me goosebumps
Dude, you're doing more for me than any psychologist has been able to do in a decade Just a random thought, Introspection is a curse, perspective is a gift, one earned through patience, retrospection is the blessing that balances it all out.
I'm usually not the biggest fan of celebrity voice actors but goddamn every penny was worth it when hiring Hailee for these roles.
Capitalize "penny," and you could say that's a reference because Kaley Cuoco's killing it as Harley Quinn.
I mean unless im very much mistaken, hailee steinfeld isn’t a “celebrity voice actress” - she’s a voice actress who BECAME celebrity, as a result of how good she is at her job. You know what I mean?
Like if they hired The Rock to voice Miles’ dad, I’d consider THAT a celebrity voice actor
@@latbil hailee steinfeld was a screen actor before she was a voice actor i believe
@@ishathakorStarred in True Grit, Pitch Perfect 2, and Transformers: Bumblebee, among others, and AppleTV's Dickinson as the titular poet, among others.
She isn't a celebrity voice actors.
She is a voice actress that happen to be famous for live action first and she isn't the only one like Ashley Johnson.
Hailee Steinfeld is defintely a talented individual. i do prefer her voice acting over her acting roles like Kate Bishop in hawkeye but I sense that may be just those properties didn't use her well. she really does well showing emotion in her voice and she is a good example that normal actors can be good voice actors if they just put in the work.
Hailee was the best part of Hawkeye, so, yeah, I'm guessing she could do a lot better in live action than we saw in that.
@@NOWABOmusicI mean look at bumblebee she was awesome in that
i feel like Steinfeld and Renner low-key saved Hawkeye in my mind. (and florence pugh of course)
haven't watched hawkeye but tbh i don't think that's her fault i think she's a good actor who just got a bad script with hawkeye. like the few clips i have watched i don't think anyone could have saved
Even in Hawkeye, she was the best part of it
Hailee Steinfeld has a Kick-Ass resume. Being in Two Marvel Franchises, playing an LOL Fighter, a Classic Western character, hanging out with an Autobot, becoming a writer in the 19th century, and sang in an Acapella group.
Don't forget the asthmatic child who hangs around with the ghost of her grandma
Fr. Girliepop can do it all and we'll never get bored!
@@cherrycola542 Care to tell me more about that?
In her Arcane interview they asked her if shes every imagined herself playing a video game character and she responded that no, but it's one the perks of her job, she gets to be in so many worlds and so much unpredictable things happens to her
schnee explains why everybody should simp for Heilee Steinfeld for 19 minutes straight
Arise my simp brothers and sisters
Haiz bros! We keep winning!
and i agree with everything he says
@@madeofcastiron so do I. Btw, any chance Heilee has onlyfans?...
Wake up it's simping hour
dude a spiderverse video and an arcane combo?? hell yes
Peak video.
HELLLL YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSAAAAAS
Also they happen to be in a beautifully animated, boundary pushing 2.5D animation that comes out of nowhere and becomes a giant hit based on a preestablished super famous franchise.
Both of which also feature incredible soundtracks of original pop and hip hop music, each of which spawned massive radio hits along the way.
@@peteryang5056 oh and they've both ended on insane cliffhangers
this whole comment thread is proving why spiderverse and arcane are masterpieces
Just when I i thought this parallel iceburg couldn't go any deeper 😂
@@loco_logic oh and both characters have high-tech gadgets on their hands and wear hoodies as part of their getup
this just made me realise how similar vi and gwen are. hailee really kills it in both roles
If these were her only roles, you'd have to be worried about her only being typecast.
@@LinkEX Luckily she does humor super well in Hawkeye. More of a I don't know what I'm doing sarcastic character, but also super likable.
@@loper42she was type cast for Hawkeye... Coming from Edge Of Seventeen and Pitch Perfect (comedy) + Bumblebee (Fantasy) made her a perfect actress for almost any female role in MCU,
Not only is this well written and explain, it's edited well and almost every shot is appropriate exactly for what is talked about even without stating it outright. And it's like that for 18 minutes? That's effort. That's strength of presence in this world.
for a video that makes the same points, the difference between mediocre and great is weeks worth of work if not more. And this video was great! As are most videos in this channel. There is very little reason to go this hard, but I love it!
dont forget a lil funny
im your 666th like
@@zeroniTDX Oh sh!t. Didn't know this got traction.
If I had a nickel for every animated character voiced by Hailee Steinfeld who are among my favourite characters ever, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot, but its weird that it happened twice.
PERRY THE PLATYPUS?!
If I had a nickel for every animated character voiced by Hailee Steinfeld who was painted on a mural by the character’s friend, I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice.
@@Greenyoshi72 THIS IS TRUE OHMYGOD
In a beautifully animated story that ended on a cliffhanger
It's a 100% success rate no?
Thank you for dedicating this video to our queen
so real
OMG it's you
I wish from the bottom of my heart she could see this
I really love how well written, flawed and tridimensional both these characters are. In a time where people eat up any "stoic badass" female archetype who has no real personality outside of being strong and having snark remarks, these two are so refreshing to see. They're allowed to be a lot of things at once, to be strong and vulnerable, to fuck up and do the right thing, to have layers and important relationships both in the romantic and platonic sense. They are what we should aim for when we talk about well written female characters.
Very few people genuinely "eats" that archetype.
The problem is people tend to want to defend it from misogynists, and then those defenses get out of context, and become un-nuanced through the internet, and then that leads to statements such as this.
People don't like it, but some of the reasons people don't like it, cause others to defend it with their life.
@@user-th1pv6ks5oI get defending them from misogynists. There's hardly any female character I don't enjoy, only if they're bigoted or completely devoid of any traits. But I do believe a lot of people DO accept the bare minimum or don't even see it as bare minimum. Some of my favorite characters of all time are poorly written female characters victims of the misogyny of their writers, I can admit that and still enjoy them while also projecting better things into their characterization.
As you said, I think it's important to separate bigotry from constructive criticism. And sometimes as a way of defending a character from a misogynistic narrative people tend to not want to criticize them at all. So it's tricky like that when it comes to having nuance, I agree!
And male characters! I think part of the reason these female characters rock so hard is society is STILL struggling with letting male heroes show emotional vulnerability (protip: murderous rampage is not a healthy expression of grief -- looking at you, John Wick).
@@sydney2396
To be fair... *_They killed his dog._*
A puppy, no less.
And that was only in the first movie. The next few movies are just other folks trying to pull him back into that dark world, when he just wants a quiet life with his dog. He was perfectly fine chilling with his dog, taking his car out for a drive, and by the end of John Wick he was prepared to go back to that quiet life. But some dingus just had to ruin it.
@@user-th1pv6ks5oit's kinda the weird situation where the character is too flawed and you want to actually say something, but Mr. Skinhead next to you is shouting out slurs at the same character, for all the wrong reasons lol. Because they're more vocal about their hate, it's easier to single them out as the basis for all hate that character is getting. And those who tend to defend the character are the ones who are....like a normie; in the sense that they can't do critical thinking.
It's like with Castlevania's Annette. Like I don't really like her, or how they messed up her personality for 75% of her runtime by making her a brat....but I literally can't give an explanation without the fans who "eat her up" lumping me with thr vocal racists all hating on her just because of th3 raceswap. It's a lose-lose situation. We even see it with actual creators lumping any and all criticisms to their characters as "you are all racist/incels" example, Seth Rogan saying that, when he called out how unlikeable the main character was in that godawful Christmas cartoon series he made.
Hailee Steinfeld is the gold standard for who screen/stage actors should look to when faced with a voiceover role. She just makes voice acting seem so natural and effortless. I hope that more animated movies take this into account rather than having big names to pull in audiences! All actors can lend their voices in animated movies, but voice acting certainly seems to require a wholly different approach.
okay, fine, i’ll go rewatch arcane for the 40th time 😔
I just rewatched it two weeks ago, it's too good. I can definitely say that after the 50ish time watching I'm starting to get numb to the ending. 😅
All jokes aside can't wait for season 2.
@@dzibanart8521 it doesn’t matter how many times i rewatch it i’m still gonna cry at the ending 😭
Rewatching now that the season two trailer is out :))
hailee steinfeld is one of my favourite celebrity voice actors - she's very well cast in both cases and i love how her softer voice offsets the tougher appearance of the characters she plays. i think that's exactly what she brings to these roles, adding to that careful balance both vi and gwen have between masculinity and feminity, strength and tenderness, through how her voice contrasts their outward presentation.
That intro is amazing! What a resume indeed! Somebody, please send it to Ms. Hailee because we do indeed appreciate her!
I'm currently writing a story about two brothers based on my relationship with my sister. After seeing this video, I realize I'm writing them so similar to this archetype you're explaining. (which is why I love arcane and spiderverse SO much). This was so helpful, thank you!!
oho? Best wishes on that. There are many great examples of beautiful writing and beautiful characters it's a nice age to be alive in terms of that. What would the name of your book be if you don't mind sharing? l would love to look forward to it
@@returntosoilgumiho i havent figured out a name yet. And it'll likely be a movie
this structure really can work on every age diffrence siblings, expect for twins, and im a twin, so im telling from experience
play Life is Strange 2!! super helpful for exploring brotherhood, and siblinghood in general
Is slightly unrelated but thought you'd enjoy it because it's one of those little details that help a lot in building the characters but observe how spider-gwen uses her webs against her father. It's constantly keeping him away, restraining, limiting but then when they have their heartfelt confession she finally brings them together with it
nice catch, love it!
@@schnee1Schnee taking notes faster than Andrew Garfield’s Gwen getting her neck snapped. We still have no solid idea that Hailee’s Gwen is safe from this fate💀
Impeccable intro! Both Gwen & Vi are two of my favorite recent animated characters so just really glad for a video on them both. It is absolutely amazing that they're both voiced by Hailee Steinfeld tho.
same! vi and gwen are my favorite animated characters bc they're written so well and also I can relate to them so much
No side shave, yet the character we deserve... The character that made Hailee Steinfeld. Book smart and articulate yet highly naïve. Tough and courageous yet headstrong and reckless. Stoic at times yet emotionally expressive and vulnerable at other times. Lost her father yet gained a protector in Rooster Cogburn. Ladies and gentlemen... MATTIE ROSS FROM TRUE GRIT! In all seriousness, many of the admirable traits and character arcs of Gwen and Vi were found in Hailee's fateful silver screen debut (and written in the source material from the 1968 novel). Without Mattie, there would be no onscreen appearance of Spider-Gwen nor Vi...
Huh.. Hailee Steinfeld has found her voice acting genre. Nice
The first 3 minutes is freaking hilarious
schnee: Should I do another Spider-Verse video or one for Arcane
also schnee: Both. Both is good
Thank you for your videos, schnee. I love your analysis into character arcs and development; to me character arcs make or break a story and your videos do a great job on what works and the moving pieces that make them tick. I have a lot to learn to being a writer. thank you for another lesson, sensei.
I'm so glad that this character type is emerging in the modern day. One of the problems with writing female characters is that history is dominated by only male characters, and writing is based on past writing. So authors and creatives have a vast swath of male archetypes to play off of and remix, but they really only have like three character types for female characters eg the madonna whore dichotomy.
It's been a rough start for the past 20 years, (lots of female characters who are just gender swapped men, lots of seductresses 'but they're empowered because they can control men for power,' lots of 'and she's our token girl character who'll act as the heart of the group,' lots of girlbosses), but I feel like we're finally reaching a point where we're actually making something new that'll inspire new writers to write/remix girl characters!
Hailee Steinfeld is just peak. I hope she does get to play another Oscar worthy role again.
I knew they were similar but didn’t realise there were THIS many parallels even Powder and Miles is spot on
I relate to these girls so much because... I am these girls. Maybe not in the sibling dynamic, but in the emotional struggle for self worth and failing and picking myself up when the world knocks me down. And hardest of all, for picking myself up even when I knock myself down.
it's really funny to me to refer to "either Gwen or Vi" as just "Heilee Steinfeld" :D Fun video
Completely off topic, but I wrote about you and your video analysis for my college essay over a year ago. They have a roughly 50% acceptance rate. Fast forward to now, I attend that university. Thank you for the time and effort you put into your videos. It is an entertainment and delight like no other. I like to tell people this channel got me accepted. Can’t wait for the next one.
whoa thats so awesome! id love to read the essay if you'd be comfortable emailing it to me schnee.business@gmail.com
00:00 🕰️ The video discusses the appeal and structure of a specific character archetype played by Hailee Steinfeld.
00:44 🏋️♀️ The character archetype is a strong, athletic female lead with a distinctive appearance, such as a pink side shave, who excels in combat and urban traversal.
01:28 🗡️ These characters often have a special bond with a younger character, acting as a protector and mentor figure.
01:57 👨👧 The archetype features tough yet emotionally vulnerable characters, comfortable with subtle gestures of affection.
02:24 💪 The character's strength, both physical and emotional, plays a crucial role in their development and overcoming challenges.
03:34 🎭 The character embodies a balance of feminine and masculine traits, protecting others while also needing protection.
04:15 🌟 The initial trajectory of the character, as seen through the eyes of a younger character, is subverted, leading to deeper character exploration.
06:09 🔄 The character's initial understanding of success and growth is challenged, leading to a more complex and meaningful journey.
07:32 🔄 The character's development involves confronting emotional challenges and embracing their true identity, not just physical strength.
08:55 👥 The character's strength is deeply connected to their relationships, emphasizing the importance of interpersonal connections in their story.
11:01 🎭 The character oscillates between projecting confidence and revealing vulnerability, creating a multi-dimensional portrayal.
12:25 🔗 The character's strength creates both triumphs and challenges, demonstrating that it's a double-edged sword.
13:07 🔄 The character's strength is driven by their goal of protecting loved ones, highlighting their dedication to relationships.
14:32 🔄 Avoid common pitfalls by giving your female character flaws, making them fail, and showcasing their emotional depth without fragility.
15:56 👥 Establish the character's strength as an integral part of their identity, reflected in their actions, relationships, and personal goals.
17:05 👥 Connect the character's strength to their relationships, ensuring that it serves a meaningful purpose in their journey.
What a strong intro!!! First 2min of the vid got me so hyped. Well done
The oddly specific parallels that matched nearly beat for beat was just perfect. The way he presented it made me feel that there were some larger underlying ideas that made these characters so similar but not identical at the same time, and it was what kept me engaged with what on paper should be a very specific and niche video.
It bugs me that nobody complains when James Bond or any of countless other male characters is written with a flat character arc and no weaknesses, only when female characters are written that way. This walls off a vast segment of the story space where we drop a badass into a situation and let them work and makes it male character only. And what boggles my mind is everyone just goes along with it.
But anyway thanks for this analysis. It actually helps with a story I'm working on. Awesome!
James Bond has been portrayed by many actors with many directors and writers over the years with inconsistent quality control. The Daniel Craig movies do portray a much more layered character with strengths, weaknesses, struggles, vulnerabilities, etc.
@@ribcagesteak look up "flat charachter arc." It's a longstanding way of writing a character. How does John Wick meaningfully change over the course of a film? Indiana Jones? Most characters portrayed by Arnie, Clint Eastwood, etc. It's ubiquitous. But it's only allowed for male characters.
@@j.f.fisher5318 Who says it is only allowed for male characters? There are tons of film critics who discuss these things. There is a reason why dramatic movies generally get more Oscar buzz/awards than action movies. Majority of critically aclaimed performances and awards go to dialog heavy performances with deep character development regardless of male or female. Critics for decades have favored dramatic performances over action heroes. Also, compare Clint Eastwood's performances in more drama heavy movies like Unforgiven or Gran Torino vs more action focused and less dramatic spaghetti westerns. There are clear and intentional differences in the writing and development of the characters. Also Arnie's performance in Terminator 2 and character arc is quite dynamic and underrated in this respect. Not a flat character arc at all.
@@ribcagesteak Don't pretend to be naive. There's too many videos to count attacking any movie with a female lead written that way. But nobody complains about movies with male characters written that way - and they shouldn't. John Wick for example is a great movie. He doesn't need to discover some philosophical whatever about being a complete person and it wouldn't make the movie better if he did. But at the same time complaining when female characters are written that way is bullshit.
@@j.f.fisher5318 Who's the one being naive? I don't put much stock in random internet opinions and bad takes. I only value the opinions of those who study film seriously (either as a hobby or professional). There is no "rule" amongst serious cinemaphiles that allow for "bad" male characters and are biased against the same traits found in female characters. Sure, if you consume the opinions of random internet trolls you will find an abundance of bad takes. I don't take those seriously. If you can point to an abundance of credible critics (hobbiest or professional, those with proven knowledge of film making and not some random youtuber pretending to be a critic) that place b movie level male action stars on the same performance level as The Godfather, than I'm all ears. That simply is not a consensus among those serious about film. Casual fans, maybe.
watching this honestly made me realize how much inspiration i got from these characters, i knew it was definitely similar before but i think these characters had a bigger impact on me than i thought they did
12:20 I actually never caught this point, but it makes so much sense now that you pointed it out! I think it’s because I play League of Legends, so when Powder used the hextech bomb and it slew her friends and alienated Vi, it wasn’t an “I never saw this coming” moment but a “so this is the catalyst”. The most surprising part for me was the first three episodes because I was already familiar with Jinx thanks to LoL, and Powder came as a huge shock.
"Protective and Strong in a wrong way" is a very nice way to put it.
If we are to expand a bit further and consider more mature characters like Maiev in Warcraft or Lae'zel in Baldur's Gate 3, we improve the blueprint a little. We can define these characters as fiercely protective not only to their close ones, but to the broader things like their people at large, their leaders, their cause, or even antagonizing a certain other character and making them the end goal (which also works with more evil aligned characters like Sylvanas and Minthara), with a bonus in form of existential crisis after said character is defeated.
There is enough variety in setting up such character, but I see that most of them develop that 'false strength' as a reaction to a severe trauma that sometimes occurs even before the story starts. Either that, or a harsh, spartan upbringing, or even both! Then we see that false strength lead them to even bigger failures before they restart and probably right the wrongs by breaking the chains / uprising against the false cause / coming at peace with their antagonistic urges and therefore regaining a respected position in their society / developing great relationships with their allies.
Long story short, go play some videogames, there's plenty of good stuff to analyze too! Now I'm thinking about similar arcs with more feminine and less side cut girlboss characters, like Jaina or Shadowheart, which also creates pretty interesting food for thought about mistakes of the past, agency and powerlesness.
Oh, and voice actresses like Debi Mae West and Devora Wilde are absolutely killing it for their characters and certainly deserve more love and attention as well!
Schnee should make some videos about characters and stories from VideoGames!
Schnee, it never occurred to me how similar Vi and Gwen’s stories are, despite watching arcane earlier this year.
Also, it is funny how a significant part of the video is just (rightfully) praising Hailie Steinfeld, she does a great job as both Gwen and Vi.
I've been saying I love Vi and Gwen for the same reasons literally since I first found out Hailee voiced Vi but holy shit I never realized they were *that* alike
Also schnee if you're seeing this I love your video essays so much and this one is no exception. Keep up the great work!
A part of me wants schnee to make a video analyzing the importance of animating Imagine Dragons into Arcane just to see what he can deduce from it.
But in all seriousness, your videos and analyses have helped RESHAPE what I write to where whenever I'm in a rut, I just re-listen one of your essays. Thank you, man. You’re the professor I never knew I needed. Take care.
I think what's really interesting is how both of these properties pull this "character you thought had their life figured out actually doesn't" trick for *so many characters* - on the spiderverse side there's gwen and aaron and peter and kind of hobie and miguel. for arcane they do this with vi and vander and heimerdinger and kind of silco. it's a writing trope that can get a lot of mileage
It’s a great day when schnee uploads
Haha, this was great! I love how Hailee plays both of these characters and I love them both. You did a great job of breaking down those 4 tips and exploring how Vi/Gwen avoids the pitfalls of so many female characters
If you want a good protector character, read the stormlight archive by Brandon Sanderson. Absolutely incredible stuff
These girls were also, in a way, the “first born” of their families in their world. They used to be the little sibling but had to step up with the strengths they had and learn more on their own. Or if they were lucky, have a mentor to give direction. (But then the mentor tragically leaves them too. Leaving them almost right back where they started, alone. 😭 and they have to find some other way forward.)
Ugh this is my favorite video ever! Thanks for this!
really makes you think that 2 of the best written female characters ever in animation are voiced by the same person and have tons and TONS of similarities
really makes ya think....
i am so excited for the next season of arcane
about 50% excited for the new plot, and the other 50% for a new wave of schnee arcane analysis videos :D
seriously, i learn so much about story telling from your videos (and not just the arcane ones) and also, you talk with so much passion about all these details i would've never figured out myself... it's amazing
good work
This is so brilliant! Thank you for explaining all those connections in a way that totally makes sense. Again, undoubtedly a 10/10 video
Another phenomenal video essay, always super enlightening! Thank you!
i love the idea of making a character's strength their flaw. i never thought about it like that but its very useful advice.
also a big part of why these characters (and all the other good ones) work is that they arent afraid to be women. they dont try to make femininity a bad thing they just dont define them by a steriotype. they are more "masculine" in a lot of ways but not for the sake of saying hey look girls can do it too. they do have that natural feminine side they're just not as traditionally womanly as a lot of other characters. they feel like what real tomboys are like when you know them irl. they feel like REAL HUMAN PEOPLE
the paralleling of miles and jinx here too was really good. its so crazy because both of them are characters that i consider my kids😭
(sorry for my bad english) please do an analysis on simon pretikov, this is the character with the deepest development story in Cartoon and the most tragic history, specially now with the fionna and cake series you can see how much this character is important for the all plot and history in adventure time. his my favorite character right now when i noticed how much he sacrifice and suffer for the people he loved, is almost how all the years of making these series of adventure time was just for you cry seeing what simon represent and do in the series
you showed just one shot of sarah connor from terminator 2 but i think she's also an excellent example of this sort of character!!! love her
I’m convinced the ability to break down material like this is some sort of genius, so amazing, love your videos ♡
i love hailee steinfeld. all my homies love hailee steinfeld.
Still at the first part and I cannot believe that's an entire 2:36 minutes worth of similarities. Like bruhhh
the coolest part about both characters similarities is how different they actually are as people so wild
This is another example of how female characters can be different from male characters. Gwen & Vi have both been parentified, made to grow up fast. They've had to step into adult roles, the superhero, the co-parent. They're confident, and have greater talents that are seen as skill by those around them. The reason they seem adult is they've had to craft that image. It's not entirely their fault (it's not their fault) that the adults around them didn't question it, and didn't or couldn't make sure they had real childhoods. So they're unprepared when they're forced to realize they are not adults. They need to know people won't leave them if they're vulnerable and soft, that their tenderness won't require them to give up the strength they've been forced to forge out of their trauma.
I love Vi because she has all the confidence and swagger that I WANT, and all the emotional connections and pain that I FEEL. There's something external and something internal, a want and how I relate. (She's also hot, I can't pretend that doesn't play a part in why I love her).
'Hope I enjoyed the video'?? SIR if this video was a dish I'd finished it clean off the plate and then ate the plate.
You're the best
I literally always thought they were so similar, even outside of Hailee. I was thinking of talking about it, but I was too lazy to do an essay about it. Glad someone did it for me.
Schnee to Arcane "were done, when I say we're done"
It is AMAZING how you're able to analyze the elements of a story in such great depth. I would love to know how you go about doing so, in what specific way you look at a story to get such a good hold of it and its characters.
He already made that video: "My Methodology of Analysis (200k SUB SPECIAL!)"
like the other reply said, he already made like a 2-hour long video about how he goes over stuff, how/where he learned to, and more. Its a really good vid
7:15 i love the symbolism of "every step you take" as Amity is taking steps towards her own better life, well done analysis and great edits! :)
Hailee's the only person who can pull off the same character over and over again for differemt franchises
Literally just listened to your MIguel video for the third time - now I see you uploaded another video. Love your videos man!
Welcome to the Steinfam!! 😄
Me and my bro LOVED ARCANE AND SPIDER VERSE. We just finished binging the ARCANE series yesterday. AND IT HIT THE SPOT!!my bro LOVEs Gwen Stacy and she was his fave in spider verse movies. And in ARCANE Vi was also his fave character. Also did I forget to mention that me as a girl had a HUGE crush on both these character??!!!
Honey Come Quick Schnee Uploaded a New Video ❤
Not everybody can finish so fast like you arthur
another banger, keep up the great videos
After watching this, my brain can't help but think that the Gwen/Vi and Jinx/Miles dynamic works is because the dynamic is an encapsulation of "the five(six) man band" into two characters.
the amounts of parallels you rattle off is crazy i just started laughing at some point, and picking out every scene from both films, yeah these characters ARE exactly the same huh
Only a matter of time, for Hailee's characters to sing
Just realized I can apply this to a couple characters I’m writing that have a kind of Eda/Luz dynamic, but I didn’t want the mentor character to be as much of a caricature as Eda could sometimes be (since The Owl House was a comedy kids show among other things). Making the mentor character more like these Hailee Steinfeld characters can add some much needed weight to the mentor’s narrative, and I had a tragic twist in mind for the apprentice character which works well with all the stuff you comment on about Miles and Powder.
Both are some of my all time favorite characters!!! I love the parallel scenes in the beginning- I didn't realize how similar/shot for shot their arcs/personalities were I'm actually going crazy
Hilariously accurate title 😂 thank you for the hard work and insightful character breakdowns! This video helped give me some direction for my own flat feeling goal-less characters. Loved how a well written character type can help you learn about character writing in general!
I remember reading Ender's Game as a kid, and just being gobsmacked by how awesome Petra Arkanian was
Then as an adult, decades later, I watched and was pleasantly surprised by the film
Thing is
They cast Hailee as Petra, and she should've absolutely stolen the show. But they did, like, nothing with her
A solid 4/5 that had no right not to be a 12/5
I have seen both of these stories and man, I didn't know that Hailee's character played the exact same role. I was blown away only a few minutes into this video. The writers did an incredible job at writing these characters and Hailee made sure they sound as badass as they can get. I hope directors don't overuse this character in the future
I loved the intro, it was really funny. I like how you suggest casting Hailee Steinfeld in the eventual voice acting role for the story XD.
Gender roles shouldn't be a rigid box. People should explore the parts of who they are no matter if they are "traditionally feminine" or "traditionally masculine". This works in real life and it works when you have a well-written character in fiction.
Hailee understands what it means to come from pain but is still more relaxed in her facade to other peiple
“If you run from your emotions they’ll hit you like a brick wall. Chip away the wall before that fucker breaks your nose” my grandfather
Shnee, never stop. (Unless you want to?)
You gave me a passion for storytelling and analysing cinema. Thank you
Brilliant analysis
God, someone finally gets it. THIS is the anatomy of a compelling character. Just make them multi-dimensional. Give them stakes, make them flawed, put them through the grinder, have a foil, and let them learn and work through their mistakes.
This video helped me realize how much i relate to both Gwen and Vi. I'm a transfem older sister so most of my life I've spent being a stoic protector but in the last couple of years I learned that that supressing emotion is not strength. My character development is all about abandoning the masculine "strength" that I thought I had but never helped me and replacing it with a more emotional, feminine vulnerability that is supported by my relationships (younger sister and friends). These two characters are probably my favorite of all time and the reason, more than I realized before, is because they exemplify all the traits that I aspire for while struggling with very similar problems as I do. I find myself wishing I could be them because I relate to them so much while aspiring to be more like them.
Thanks for this amazing video! Your character videos are always top notch and learning more about the characters I love helps me to understand more about myself.
Also my dad is a role model to me but I also have a lot of disagreements with him, very similarly to both characters. Although my mom is still around, I don't have a good relationship with her and she mostly opposes my development as a person so only having a dad you look up to is still something I relate to these characters
If Hailee Steinfeld played Kamina, maybe he would have survived. T_T
@schnee You are good with the essays.
Hey!! havent even watched it yet cause this came out a minuter ago but i just know its going to be a good one
I love both of those characters 💕
Your obsession with both Spider-Verse and Arcane is honestly a mood. I'm convinced that whoever made Across the Spider-Verse definitely took some inspiration from Arcane. It's not a bad thing, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case.
your video essays are actually one my favourite things ever like my jaw droppeddd during the breakdown of their character arcs, great analysis as always
This is pretty much a perfect explanation on how to write a strong female character by using 2 perfect examples
Okay your intro comparing arcane and Spider-Verse was so good I watched it three times!
Very interesting video! I quite liked that you generalised your advice a little bit more towards the end for other kinds of stories, since it would be a bit weird to focus entirely on writing a specific character archetype :P
To play devil's advocate a bit, while I can certainly see the many parallels you've brought up between Vi and Gwen, it's also worth pointing out that while they fall into fairly similar character archetypes, they're actually fairly different characters with different personalities and different character arcs. Which isn't a bad thing, it shows that this character archetype has quite a bit of variety to it and that there's many interesting ways to do a take on it!
For instance, I definitely think a lot of what you said about overprotectiveness and looking up applies more so for Vi's arc than for Gwen's arc, since the parallels of a younger character are significantly stronger for someone who's literally a younger sibling than a same-age character from another dimension. Vi is significantly more protective and laser-focused on keeping her younger sister safe, even to the point of not fully understanding her transformation into Jinx (as we see in ep. 9). While Gwen does have a similar level of focus towards Miles, it's less of a protective angle and more of a desire for companionship (and attraction), and while the protective angle comes up a bit in the first movie, it features significantly less in the second movie, since she sees Miles as more of a peer even in the first movie, and even more so in the second movie where Miles has caught up in proficiency as a spider-person.
This also comes from the differences between their respective character arcs and motivations. Vi's main character arc throughout the first season is mainly focused on the desire to protect her sister and reconnect with the people she cares about most, and this overprotectiveness of her sister and the short-range love she has for those immediately around her means she's quite flexible when it comes to ideology, since the only thing she really cares about is the people she cares about most, even to the point where she works with Jayce from the Piltover Council (something younger Vi thought she would never do!). Finding and saving her sister is pretty much the only thing that remains constant in Vi's mind from episodes 4-9. In contrast, Gwen's arc focuses a lot more on her loneliness and fear from losing her best friend early in life, and her inability to truly connect to anyone, which isn't helped by her father hunting down her superpowered alter ego. Unlike Vi, who doesn't really face loneliness and connection issues (she's often the first person to break the ice amongst initially skittish people like Jinx and Ekko!), Gwen definitely faces issues with connecting with people, but her pent-up strong desire to find friendship anyway is what drives her arc and relationship with Miles.
These different arcs and personalities also lead to them pursuing relatively different actions. Vi remains laser-focused on the small-scale and personal goal of finding and saving her sister from ep 4-9, which contrasts neatly with Caitlyn's more broad perspective of wanting to solve the Piltover-Zaun problem, and this leads to her seeming to flip sides or ideologies quicker than expected, especially when it seemed like she was so resolute and idealistic in her younger years. In contrast, Gwen externalises her issues by focusing mainly on "saving everyone else", since she's more in control when she's swinging around as spider-woman than in her daily life as regular Gwen due to her issues of connecting with others. It's only when she meets Miles that she starts narrowing her focus back on individual interpersonal relationships, and it takes the entire second movie for her to resolve her indecision and conflict between her role in the spider society and her relationship with Miles and decide to fully commit to saving her relationship with Miles, when she finally realises she can't do both the spider society and her relationship with Miles and she realises she cares more about Miles than anyone else in the multiverse. This is in quite stark contrast with Vi, who starts S1 being overprotective of Powder and ends S1 being somewhat overprotective of Jinx (or the Powder she misses), with the only thing changing in between being what she's doing to meet that goal.
There's also differences in how they tackle problems. Vi tends to pick the first, simplest and most direct solution to a problem, which usually involves hitting the problem really hard. She also tends to pick it without much hesitation. See: Her desire to revolt against Piltover in ep. 1 and 2, her first reencounter with Sevika in ep. 5, her suggestion of beating Silco in ep. 8, and her subsequent rampage in ep. 9. This even extends towards relationships, where she's often quire direct towards people! That makes sense, considering that's what she's good at and her relatively direct character, but this direct approach often causes her problems in a world where the situation is often nuanced and the solution is often not violence. In contrast, Gwen is almost on the other side of the spectrum - Her entire arc in the second movie is her remaining indecisive on how to deal with her complex situation regarding her father, her place in the spider society, her relationship with Miles and the knowledge she holds about canon events and Miles being an anomaly, and only figuring it all out when it seems like it's too late. She's significantly less direct than Vi in first confronting a problem (see how she avoids the issue with her secret identity with her father until it's almost too late, or avoids the entire conundrum with the spider society and Miles until it's almost too late), and being direct and punching things isn't really her first approach towards a problem. If anything, both characters could learn something from each other on tackling problems! Vi might benefit from a broader perspective and a bit more thinking time when dealing with the complex problems in the Arcane world, and being direct and realising what she cares about most might have saved Gwen quite a bit of suffering in ATSV.
Miles and Powder / Jinx also play fairly different roles in Gwen / Vi's respective arcs, despite their similarities as the "younger character looking up to the older character". Powder / Jinx initially acts as the younger, less experienced sister that Vi feels genuine overprotectiveness towards, and the main conflict and arc later in the season is the disconnect between Vi's image of Powder in her mind and the different person Jinx has grown into. Even by the end of the season, it seems like Vi still hasn't fully internalised what's happened to Jinx. In contrast, Gwen has a pretty accurate read on Miles from the start, since she got to see Miles even before he got bitten by the spider (this is in contrast to Miles, who only got to see the cool, spider-woman side of Gwen in the first movie and only got a glimpse of her torrential inner world and daily life in the second movie). There isn't really the same level of disconnect between Gwen's imagined version of Miles and the actual Miles, besides mentally updating that Miles is significantly more capable 1 year and 4 months later. In contrast, the main role Miles plays in Gwen's arc is initially as a peer and companion that Gwen strives to have, and later as an inspirational figure when he takes a direct, confrontational approach against the spider society in contrast to Gwen's indecision. Thus, Miles and Gwen end up swapping positions from ITSV to ATSV, with Miles initially looking up to Gwen as inspiration for being a really cool and capable spider-person when he was just bitten in ITSV, and Gwen looking up to Miles for being so direct in fighting for what he cares for above all else and challenging the status quo by the end of ATSV. The themes of the arcs are fairly different as a result, since the disparity in the character view is absent from the spiderverse and the role-swapping plays less of a role in Arcane. As such, these two plot structures end up differing a fair bit, despite their somewhat general similarity of a younger character initially looking up to an older character, then the older character failing and having to learn something from the younger character.
I do think both characters are really interesting, different yet fairly similar takes of this character archetype though! I like that Vi is the more direct interpretation of the "strong female character", with her being direct and often using her strength as a first resort to solving problems, and yet having interesting emotional depth that's complemented by her interactions with the characters around her. In contrast, I also like the slightly different take for Gwen's character, that being someone who's extremely capable in her powerful alter ego, but whose strength does not help her in dealing with what she cares about most and her most pertinent, complex inner struggles, leading to rich, internal conflict that spills over to external conflict with others and even the alter ego life as a result. I think the many parallels and lessons you've drawn from these slightly different interpretations of similar character archetypes is really interesting and useful for writing interesting and compelling "strong female characters" better!
I also agree with you on the "no way my 2 pieces of favourite media in the past 5 years had the same character archetype played by the same voice actor", I was initially surprised by how much depth Gwen's arc had in ATSV and I was wondering why nearly every other "strong female character" I could think of didn't have nearly as interesting or compelling an arc as Gwen, and subsequently watching Arcane was a breath of fresh air with all the characters having so much depth and being so well written!
"if i had a nickle for everytime hailee steinfield played a 0:03 - 1:59, i would have two nickles, which isnt a lot, but it is weird that it happned twice"
You mean heavenly grateful😊
3 nickles. Mattie Ross from True Grit.
Your skill at both analysis and presentation is truly enviable. The way you approach complex, nuanced topics seems to draw out all the threads that swirl around in my head in an abstract soup -- but then you weave them into an ordered tapestry that anyone could appreciate. It's the difference between being simply *perceptive* and being *scientific*.
HOLY FUCK i feel SO seen by these female leads. There is some much representation for females who are VERY feminine or VERY masculine but this this is the first time i've resonated with the female leads. Slow romance life, intense principles, hardcore abt what they believe in fighting for what they think is right, vulnerable with their loved ones (sometimes), protect (i am a big sister and absolute treasure mah lil bro)
You are brilliant, this analysis is so spot on that it's emotionally moving all on it's own. Thank you
Only the first minute, I already have to write this comment:
I really enjoy how you put side by side, all the shots with similar angle, shot size, or vibe, it really gives me goosebumps
Dude, you're doing more for me than any psychologist has been able to do in a decade
Just a random thought,
Introspection is a curse, perspective is a gift, one earned through patience, retrospection is the blessing that balances it all out.
Even though this one doesn't have a side shave her performance in Hawkeye was good aswell and another awesome Heroine