I wanna play an oath of the watchers paladin and a horizon Walker ranger that are basically the Men in Black, protecting our realm of external invaders.
A positive aspect of the 20th level feature is that fiends are extremely overrepresented among high CR monsters, so I suspect the ability would be more useful at that level than at lower ones in most campaigns.
I don't mind these subclasses that shine in specific campaigns because they have a great setup for connecting their mechanics to the narrative and setting. I think 5e has enough subclasses that it can afford to have ones that don't work well in every game.
A cleric cantrip is tempting in the sense that Paladins don’t have a lot of ranged options. Toll the dead, using your Charisma, might be good. Not sure it’s better +1 to AC though.
I was thinking guidance and toll for that very reason. Will i use it all the time? Naw. Will i be happy when i need it? Sure, as i find thrown weapons all but useless.
i'd argue carrying thrown javelins (if you're strength based) or a boy (if you're dex-based) is probably a better option. Most of the paladin stuff is designed to work in melee anyway
@@smile-tl9in range on javs is pretty painful though, and just isn't as sexy. Bows don't mesh well with shields. Certainly, toll the dead is no good if you don't prioritize cha, but if you do, it's a decent choice for a sword and board. I agree that paly's excel at melee; is why i'm fond of shoring up that ranged weakness. Besides, between that AND guidance, it just feels right.
The problem with Thrown Weapons is that RAW it doesn’t work with Extra Attack most of the time since you only get one free object interaction. You’d basically have to start with a javelin already in hand to actually attack twice with it. Plus prioritizing charisma development is not a bad call if the party doesn’t hurt for DPR, given that Aura of Protection and spellcasting are some of Paladin’s strongest features. A serviceable ranged option is also nice if your party has multiple control casters dropping AOEs like Web and what not.
You misread Rebuke. Its if you or your allies succeed a mental save. Combined with your bonus to saves and channel divinity it'll come up a bit more often.
I think the Vigilant rebuke feature may be a bit more effective than talked about in the video. It’s trigger is a creatures mental save success that occurs within 30 feet of you. There are quite a few creature abilities that force saves in a radius that have friendly fire, so there’s a decent chance someone will pass a save. It’s also potentially reinforced by your aura of devotion which boosts saving throws. It may also be worth noting that though the success trigger is within 30 feet of you, there are no limits on hurting the creature that caused the save. No distance or sight required. Can punish scrying which is cool.
I completely understand the "circumstantial" arguments in this video, but in my experience with T3-T4 AL play, most of the enemies you're fighting are fiends/devils/celestials/aberrations/undead and a Watchers paladin will rarely find their abilities wasted. If they can't find a reason to use their circumstantial spells, they can feel freer to smite with that slot while keeping on their toes for counterspells. The initiative bonus aura is very interesting, and being tied to pb makes paladin 7 multiclasses very interesting besides Ancients. And imho their capstone in particular is bonkers as a mass banish/dispel evil and good + truesight in one on a bonus action without burning a single smite slot
@@Warchoon Yeah, you can still smite them - which, be honest, that's what you're doing with any Paladin. I'd also rather have Advantage on WIS/INT/CHA against the Lich than many (maybe any) of the other Oath's level 3 features.
OK, just so you know Chris, your insights on Tasha are very helpful for someone who purchased the book but don't have time to read it in details like you do. So thank you.
If the 20th level ability doesn’t come up, then your DM is probably an a**hole xD. If I was a DM for this subclass I’d LOVE to build a campaign around extraplanar invasions, or at least a good chunk of it is
Honestly, a Ghostbuster akin game with all these extraplanar threats and a party made up of a Horizonwalker Ranger, Oath of the Watcher Paladin and so on would be really interesting
I would love to see more Paladin videos from you! You rate them pretty high, so I'd love to see some guides and maybe get an idea how you think the different oats compare to each other, the way you did for Clerics and Wizards.
Great video as always. It's kinda funny that you included artwork of Bloodborne and the Tower Knight from Demon's Souls, but not the Abyss Watchers from Dark Souls 3. They are the first thing I thought of when I started reading this subclass.
As someone who never played any "Souls" game but plays a lot of Total War Warhammer and Vermintide, I immediately thought of the Empire's Witch Hunters when I read the subclass.
one advantage of see invisibility vs blind fighting is that while blind fighting negates disavantage in attacks against unseen targets within 10ft of you it doesn't provide you line of sight on the target, so the target can still hide and run away if the battle gets tough.
A couple of things about Vigilant Rebuke. 1) It makes the being who forced the save to take the force damage, not the one who succeeded. This combined with the Paladin's Aura of Protection and their Channel Divinity Watchers Will is very powerful. 2) If one of your allies succeeds on the save against the being/enemy who forced the saving throw, that being/enemy will automatically take damage, no saves required. Now granted this does use your reaction to which a Watchers Paladin will eventually get Counterspell and maybe other feats like Sentinel which also uses your reaction, but it's still a viable option in my opinion. Overall this was a well made video and I do agree with what you bring up in it. There's a reason as to why the Paladin is my favorite class in all of D&D. There's quite a bit given to each Paladin subclass to make them all feel unique in comparison to each other and this one is no exception, though it is a bit more circumstantial.
Paladins being able to get back a spell slot a few times a day is a huge boon. Even Oaths with good Channel Divinities will eventually run into a situation where an extra spell would make a difference when their Divinity wouldn’t.
@@jinxtheunluckypony And eventually we’ll just end up with optimal party comps consisting of a bunch of casters and a single paladin... oh wait I guess we were already there 😭
Looking forward to seeing you take a look at Rogues next time. Soulknife is one of my favorite new things in Tasha's, probably second to Swarmkeeper, and I'd like to see some good analysis on it.
@@ArtGuyCharlie my build outputted good single target dps while being the skill monkey of the group. Ran a fighter 2, soul knife 3, gloomstalker 5 (only gloomstalker 3 was needed. Put in 2 more levels for extra attack. You could delay build completion and go fighter 5, soul knife 3 and gloomstalker 3).
I think you're reading Vigilant Rebuke wrong. It deals damage to the creature that *forced* the save, not the creature that *made* the save, so this is only useful when you're up against enemies who are forcing the *party* to make saves round after round, which isn't very common. As a whole, I very much agree with your assessment, and I also think this is a good way to take the Paladin. Paladins didn't need crazy buffs, they didn't need some significantly power crept subclasses to keep up with the more powerful classes, and they didn't get any. They got something unique, but circumstantial.
Another possible use of the capstone is if your party is stuck on another plane. All you have to do is punch your teammates, let them willingly fail the save, and they return to the material plane.
I LOVE the Oath of the Watchers paladin, but then, as a DM I also love the concept of extraplanar invasions ... or at least extraplanar incursions. And I love that the subclass abilities are as effective against Puck or Oberon as against Jubilex or a Balor. That said, I admit that I have a personal bias; because *I* love hellspawn and *Things Man Was Not Meant to Know* doesn't mean every DM will. I also understand that the 20th-level capstone for the Oath of the Watchers is circumstantial, but ... since I've been playing (since 1980, so 40 years now), I have not ONCE gotten a character above 14th level. Also, since it is now POSSIBLE to multiclass paladins (n00bs: see any edition from 1st through 3.x), I tend to do so. A LOT. This may be just me, but I love combining paladin with Hexblade or Celestial warlock, or with just about any kind of sorcerer. So the capstone ability is a non-issue for me, though I ALSO understand that, again, this is a personal consideration. But really, a 20th-level capstone should have minimal effect on a subclass review, since most campaigns last only to level 11-13. ;)
See invisibility allows you too see the invisible creature, but it doesn’t negate the invisible condition so they still get all the benefits of the spell and you just wasted a second level spell slot.
WRT the 15th-level Rebuke - a niche case, perhaps, but if an enemy forces multiple members of your party to make a mental save, and some fail but at least one succeeds, this gives you a chance to potentially break their concentration _really_ early. ... Assuming you didn't just Counterspell it to begin with.
I feel like it fits a wide variety of settings, Orders, or whatnot. I just don't like the mechanics. Any situation in which I'd consider playing this, I'd probably just go with Devotion.
That 7th level aura is reeeally sick though, but only if you’re in an optimized party with competent and efficient players. If your party fucks around and wastes turns, then it’s pretty much pointless.
It's not "too". From fairies to friends, those all are very common creature types for a lot of campaings. There can be some encounters where some features are less useful, but overall you need a very specific campaign for Watchers Paladin to *not* be useful.
I''m fine with slightly circumstantial classes, especially with the Paladin base class being so strong. If you want a demon hunter theme this thing delivers.
I think this would be a good option in any campaign if only that 20th level ability provided any bonus at all to every combat. Advantage on mental stat saves would be enough, even though it won't help every combat, it's going to help in a lot. Even without that though, it's a cool option and I would happily play it. Counterspell alone is pretty damn amazing.
This brings up something I think is extremely important . . . players and game masters are supposed to cooperate to tell a story together. If a player is investing twenty levels into a class designed to fight various sorts of outsiders that should be something the GM is aware of and that fits into the world being crafted and the story being told. Circumstantial powers shouldn't be such a big deal because when the player got the OK to play this class the GM also should have been saying "I'll give you circumstances where this is useful, perhaps even essential". I know somebody is going to scream "But players should have complete control over their character!" or "But game masters should have complete control over the setting/story!" but both of those take away from the game. If what the players want to DO doesn't fit with the opportunities the GM wants to give them at best somebody isn't having as much fun as they'd like, and at worst it ruins the experience for more than one person. Working together is essential. A really good circumstantial ability is just "really good" if you are in the right campaign. :)
Players: Oh so you are a Paladin! you must be a good guy then! Oath of the Watchers Paladin when they hear a village has been corrupted by extra-planetary forces: "When we hunt, we kill! No one is safe! Nothing is sacred! We are The Watchers! We are the last line of defense! We will burn our own to hold the red line, it is the last line to ever hold!"
I will say concerning their 15th lvl ability, that this may work nice to at least slightly punish a creature for using their legendary reactions to auto save on spells. This has come up for me as earliest as 11th lvl play as a spellcaster, and the creatures could just nullify my save or suck spells w/ no negative repercussions. At least w/ this ability, they could get punished a little and not get away scott free. In my case the monster had 3 auto save reactions so the paladin could do an extra 21 damage to him minimum at least. Again, not the greatest 15th lvl ability, but w/ legendary reactions coming up a lot at higher lvls, will be in play a bit.
Question: does the blind fighting allow you to avert your gaze and don't suffer disadvantage if the creature you are attacking is within those 10ft of you?
Not sure what you mean by this question. If you already have disadvantage from, say, being restrained and you're trying to fight something within 10ft, then trying to look away and use blind fighting isn't going to negate that disadvantage. You need a source of advantage in order to cancel out a source of disadvantage, like being unseen yourself. However, it does eliminate the disadvantage you would normally get from being unable to see the attacker.
@@muhammadmousa4192 that was exactly what I intended, thanks. I was asking because I didn't consider this particular aspect of being able to see creatures you wouldn't normally see. (I'm playing a paladin with this fighting style...and... man it will be cool!)
So oath of watchers are basically 40k Grey Knights for d&d. Just like the chapter in question, I feel that this is an extremely niche subclass. In an out of the abyss or descent into avernus campaign it would be ridiculous but I couldn't see it being as viable as the other paladin classes in a regular campaign.
Thoughts on allowing paladin to take two weapon fighting? I'm thinking dual welder and extra sites for a nova build. Probably not optimized but thematically awesome
Its because most nova builds are 2-handed or archery. In eother case i wouldnt. Lots of good paladin stuff are bonus actions: smite spells, vow of enmity, etc. the best bet really is to go PAM if you want bonus action atk smites or action surge+dread ambusher (gloomstalker) for 1st round nova or double smites with eldritch smite (hexblade). Or if you want to go single strike setups, the grave domain+booming blade paladin can churn out great one-shots.
I’d allow it. Dual wielding is one of the weakest fighting styles so allowing a Paladin to gain access isn’t game breaking. While yes, some spells and channel divinities may take up your bonus action if your sole focus is just going ham with divine smites dual wielding is great. And although this comes up late, improved divine smite also really helps with your damage output and it combines well with the bonus action attack. Your probably gonna wanna take the dual wielder feat depending on your weapon of choice.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but would the "Loyalty" tenet of the oath prevent you from being in the same party as a fiend pact warlock? It says you can't accept gifts or favors from fiends and specifically those who "truck" with them(which I looked up and means to be involved with). So does this mean that the whenever the warlock tried to offer a gift or do some sort of favor for the paladin(which has a very wide definition of what counts) that the paladin would be bound by their oath to refuse or break their oath?
Don't diss channel divinity for Oath of Ancients. I sent a nasty demon running once as a turn one action. The poor spider demon only got to bite the Yuan-Ti pureblood in the party before it had to run. The DM seemed a little miffed.
Hey Chris, Are you going to be returning to the cleric subclasses to finish out the cleric builds similar to your wizard builds for each subclass? I'm a big fan of the build guides
I wasn't planning on it - Cleric is a lot less versatile than wizard so I don't know that I could come up with a significantly different yet still effective build for each domain.
Let's be honest, if you're going watcher then you've spoken to your dm who's said "dw you'll have a chance to use your features at least some of the time, u aint saying when or how" and you're choosing it thematically anyway.
Hmmm, Chris maybe I missed something but I thought that Blessed Warrior was really good over any other fighting style? Really surprise me your evaluation about it being so low. I mean, you get two cantrips, that is great. Paladins don't have any good ranged option, so sacred flame and toll the dead are really nice additions, and you can eve chose one cantrip jus for flavor or something used outside of combat like guidance. The other fighting styles make you a bit little better in something you already do or are quite situational while blessed warrior make you capable of things useful all the time that you otherwise can't or isn't really suited to do.
Personally imo, i'd rate it lower because you should be picking stuff that accentuate the paladin"s strengths and function in the party instead of shoring up weaknesses. Thats what your party members are for. I"d only take something that shores up a weakness if it didnt come with an opportunity cost to take an ability that would make me.better at what i do. Duelling, gwf, etc are opportunity costs for blessed warrior.
@@TheRobversion1 Thanks for the insight, it's a really good point to be consider. Thinking about it, I would still prefer Blessed warrior because to me the advantage you get for those options that focus on your strength are really small (the +2 at low level are interesting but soon become a minor thing, and gwf is just meh), while the advantage the Blessed warrior gives to your choice (be it ranged cantrip atks or something like guidance) is really big compared to what you have until that point. It gives you so much versatility (you can even chage the cantrips) at such small cost, it's basically half a feat (magic initiate). Will be my go to when a play a paladin, but I understand why ppl would prefer a straight buff like the others options.
@@FlautistaGhost yeah i understand. I was just speaking from an optimization standpoint. Those extra points to dmg add up and make a difference as to whether you're dealing with a dead enemy or not (especially if your paladin is attacking multiple times a round). i also personally like superior fighting technique in my builds to add in control elements and not just dmg. As for ranged options for the paladin, i've never wanted for one as i"ve said either the party handles it or i simply use jump+thrown weapons (flying) and the paladin comes with find steed anyway for land based distance. Plus way i see it, i'd just be using that cantrip on the opening round before i can close distance (find steed) or bring the enemy down (thrown weapon + trip attack for flying). Now if the reason to take blessed warrior was you wanted to add some cantrips for utility such as the mentioned guidance then thats a valid reason, though in that case, i'd probably just take it early then swap it for another fighting style once i can get magic initiate cleric (and pick up a 1st level spell while i'm at it).
Is there a paladin that is EVEN better at killing undead? That's the only non-humanoid creature type I would expect to be fighting at all levels of play. The watcher has one of the most annoying oaths, as many of the summoning spells conjure the things you hate, and then you have to get into an argument with the wizard or warlock afterwards. Even a tiefling that knows their parent could get shade or worse thrown at them from a Watcher paladin. Looking forward to your discussion of the Soulknife.
Due to the strength of the baseline Paladin, I don't think it's possible to have a weak Paladin. That said, I think this is among the lower oaths. In fact, I think I'd mostly forget that I had a subclass at all. Yeah, the improved Turn is nice. Meh. The paladin spell list is good enough that adding more is meh. Boosting the initiative of tanks is meh, and having the squishies clustered around the Paladin is a big no. It's not that any of these are bad. But the opportunity costs mean that pretty much any other oath would give you more.
Giving the whole party +prof to initiative is meh? I would call it the strongest aura any paladin has access to. Initiative is usually the single most important roll in combats, in a game where typical encounters only last 3-4 rounds.
@@ChristnThms But the paladin is also giving you all +4 to every save. Seems like the scenario you're describing would be pretty uncommon. Plus, if you beat the thing with your initiative (which you probably will) then you don't have to stay clustered during the fight.
@@muhammadmousa4192 If your DM lets you get away with that, then you're playing on easymode. Cluster up, get AoEd. Just like the players would do to the monsters. How powerful would it feel if your Wizard and Bard both failed their WIS save against a Hypnotic Pattern? I mean, I wouldn't bother fireballing. That's only a half step up from easymode. Seriously, if your DM doesn't have the enemies use tactics against you, then you can do anything and still win. It's a gimme. If you cluster up, you deserve to eat an AoE. You're asking for it. In fact, fuck the cluster idea. If there is ever a situation where an obvious heavy tank and obvious caster are next to each other, AoE. The caster is the real target, and if you can clip the wings on the tank at the same time, bonus. The whole point of a front row - back row set up is that your front row pushes in and forces a reaction. This splits the enemies between reacting/defending and being concerned with your back row. This ONLY works if they have to choose. If they can hit you all at once, you've done their work for them. Congratulations. Now, I'd agree that at 18 it becomes a big deal. Not only is the area massive at that point, but the bonus is bigger too. But how many games actually play at that level? Right. So, in reality, the Initiative boost is for the Paladin and maybe one other PC, and they're probably both tanks. Certainly, this is good. But not nearly as good as giving the casters a boost to initiative.
@@sharkforce8147 if you think the odds are in your favor... go ahead. Obviously, if there's no risk, then any gain is essentially free. I mean, if I could get my wizard to consistently go first by standing next to the Paladin, that would be great. It's the risk that makes it less beneficial. So, if you don't think there's any risk...
I don't find the subclass abilities to be as limiting as it appears. aberration, celestial, elemental, fey, or fiend - these are the things you are worried about causing TPKs. "oh no, I'm not as powerful against beasts and undead", you're still a paladin. Smite them.
Respectfully I disagree with your assessment of the level 15 ability. 2d8+charisma for no resource than a reaction which might not get used otherwise isn't bad. It might break concentration and it lessens the sting of an enemy succeeding a save. Also, it does more damage than a martial character would, in general, outside their turn. Admittedly, last I checked and itz been awhile, most of the things in the monster manual don't have great mental saves.
@@samueldrunkard6129 Why would it be infinite damage? Even if you assume a feedback loop, if you (as the WB target) are dealt 10 damage, it’s resisted to 5 dmg, then you (as the WB caster) take 5 dmg but resists it (as the WB target) to 2 dmg, then take 2 dmg but resists it to 1 dmg. 5+2+1=8 total damage, and voila you’ve prevented 2 damage and kept your +1 AC and +1 save. Obviously there’s also an issue if you’re concentrating and making a bunch of concentration saves, but WB would reduce most damage into DC10 saves, which after Paladin 6 you can get into auto-save territory.
Commenting to support the channel, but in general: A paladin without a subclass would already be a B+ or A tier class. Any improvements on that chassis is just whipped cream.
Agree. I have a lvl 16 SC Conquest Paladin in AL and even when the entire mod is against frightened immune creatures, he still cleans house. The paladin chassis is really solid even without class features
Not really part of the video, but Spirit shroud is also pretty good on a Warlock especially on a hexblade, due to its Scaling and their unique spell preogression. And I feel that Harness divine Power is excellent on Paladins, due to their limited spell levels.
@@M0ebius Yeah, for a classic EB-Lock it it quite the setup, but I'm looking forward to take it on my GWM-Hexblade, who smacks you about all nice and personal like in melee range.
@@TainakaRicchan maximize the output by adding fighter 2 action surge and gloomstalker 3 dread ambusher for more attacks on the 1st round. At level 10 (5 hex, 2 fighter, 3 stalker), you can churn out 6 attacks on round 1. Boss and possibly a couple of minions will be dead. Throw in an eldritch smite for good measure.
This sublcass reminds me of the watchers of the wall in game of thrones. Overall though a meh subclass. Not bad but not as awesome as vengeance or conquest either. Imo theres nothing to build around in the watchers paladin. It feels like the champion fighter. The initiative bonus is the only standout ability.
I wanna play an oath of the watchers paladin and a horizon Walker ranger that are basically the Men in Black, protecting our realm of external invaders.
A positive aspect of the 20th level feature is that fiends are extremely overrepresented among high CR monsters, so I suspect the ability would be more useful at that level than at lower ones in most campaigns.
I don't mind these subclasses that shine in specific campaigns because they have a great setup for connecting their mechanics to the narrative and setting. I think 5e has enough subclasses that it can afford to have ones that don't work well in every game.
A cleric cantrip is tempting in the sense that Paladins don’t have a lot of ranged options. Toll the dead, using your Charisma, might be good. Not sure it’s better +1 to AC though.
I could see value in that, especially if said paladin isn’t Hexblade-dipped but choose to bump charisma first over strength or weapon feats.
I was thinking guidance and toll for that very reason. Will i use it all the time? Naw. Will i be happy when i need it? Sure, as i find thrown weapons all but useless.
i'd argue carrying thrown javelins (if you're strength based) or a boy (if you're dex-based) is probably a better option. Most of the paladin stuff is designed to work in melee anyway
@@smile-tl9in range on javs is pretty painful though, and just isn't as sexy. Bows don't mesh well with shields. Certainly, toll the dead is no good if you don't prioritize cha, but if you do, it's a decent choice for a sword and board. I agree that paly's excel at melee; is why i'm fond of shoring up that ranged weakness. Besides, between that AND guidance, it just feels right.
The problem with Thrown Weapons is that RAW it doesn’t work with Extra Attack most of the time since you only get one free object interaction. You’d basically have to start with a javelin already in hand to actually attack twice with it.
Plus prioritizing charisma development is not a bad call if the party doesn’t hurt for DPR, given that Aura of Protection and spellcasting are some of Paladin’s strongest features. A serviceable ranged option is also nice if your party has multiple control casters dropping AOEs like Web and what not.
You misread Rebuke. Its if you or your allies succeed a mental save. Combined with your bonus to saves and channel divinity it'll come up a bit more often.
Doesn’t have to be an ally. Enemies that don’t care about friendly fire with their features or spells can activate it too.
I love this subclass because the Initiative bonus really helps your casters.
I think the Vigilant rebuke feature may be a bit more effective than talked about in the video.
It’s trigger is a creatures mental save success that occurs within 30 feet of you. There are quite a few creature abilities that force saves in a radius that have friendly fire, so there’s a decent chance someone will pass a save. It’s also potentially reinforced by your aura of devotion which boosts saving throws.
It may also be worth noting that though the success trigger is within 30 feet of you, there are no limits on hurting the creature that caused the save. No distance or sight required. Can punish scrying which is cool.
I completely understand the "circumstantial" arguments in this video, but in my experience with T3-T4 AL play, most of the enemies you're fighting are fiends/devils/celestials/aberrations/undead and a Watchers paladin will rarely find their abilities wasted. If they can't find a reason to use their circumstantial spells, they can feel freer to smite with that slot while keeping on their toes for counterspells. The initiative bonus aura is very interesting, and being tied to pb makes paladin 7 multiclasses very interesting besides Ancients. And imho their capstone in particular is bonkers as a mass banish/dispel evil and good + truesight in one on a bonus action without burning a single smite slot
Undead are not covered by this subclass. If you're in undead-heavy campaign, you'd be better off with a different subclass.
@@Warchoon when in doubt, there's always Smite.
@@Warchoon Yeah, you can still smite them - which, be honest, that's what you're doing with any Paladin. I'd also rather have Advantage on WIS/INT/CHA against the Lich than many (maybe any) of the other Oath's level 3 features.
Moonbeam, for a paladin, has another HUGE factor: you can find out shapeshifters.
Something a warden would surely like to be able to do.
Haha. Dragon age.
I dunno if frying someone for d10s of damage is a good way of detecting a shapeshifting lol.
@@arsarma1808 It is when you are fighting it.
My Strahd party ran into a pack of werewolves recently.
between a Druid with moonbeam and a Telekinetic Bard they did not have a lot of fun.
OK, just so you know Chris, your insights on Tasha are very helpful for someone who purchased the book but don't have time to read it in details like you do. So thank you.
imagine playing this class during a descent into avernus campaign
If the 20th level ability doesn’t come up, then your DM is probably an a**hole xD. If I was a DM for this subclass I’d LOVE to build a campaign around extraplanar invasions, or at least a good chunk of it is
Honestly, a Ghostbuster akin game with all these extraplanar threats and a party made up of a Horizonwalker Ranger, Oath of the Watcher Paladin and so on would be really interesting
I would love to see more Paladin videos from you! You rate them pretty high, so I'd love to see some guides and maybe get an idea how you think the different oats compare to each other, the way you did for Clerics and Wizards.
Great video as always. It's kinda funny that you included artwork of Bloodborne and the Tower Knight from Demon's Souls, but not the Abyss Watchers from Dark Souls 3. They are the first thing I thought of when I started reading this subclass.
As someone who never played any "Souls" game but plays a lot of Total War Warhammer and Vermintide, I immediately thought of the Empire's Witch Hunters when I read the subclass.
Great review as always
one advantage of see invisibility vs blind fighting is that while blind fighting negates disavantage in attacks against unseen targets within 10ft of you it doesn't provide you line of sight on the target, so the target can still hide and run away if the battle gets tough.
A couple of things about Vigilant Rebuke. 1) It makes the being who forced the save to take the force damage, not the one who succeeded. This combined with the Paladin's Aura of Protection and their Channel Divinity Watchers Will is very powerful. 2) If one of your allies succeeds on the save against the being/enemy who forced the saving throw, that being/enemy will automatically take damage, no saves required. Now granted this does use your reaction to which a Watchers Paladin will eventually get Counterspell and maybe other feats like Sentinel which also uses your reaction, but it's still a viable option in my opinion.
Overall this was a well made video and I do agree with what you bring up in it. There's a reason as to why the Paladin is my favorite class in all of D&D. There's quite a bit given to each Paladin subclass to make them all feel unique in comparison to each other and this one is no exception, though it is a bit more circumstantial.
Paladins being able to get back a spell slot a few times a day is a huge boon. Even Oaths with good Channel Divinities will eventually run into a situation where an extra spell would make a difference when their Divinity wouldn’t.
The rich gets richer I guess.
@@M0ebius That’s how capitalism works
@@jinxtheunluckypony And eventually we’ll just end up with optimal party comps consisting of a bunch of casters and a single paladin... oh wait I guess we were already there 😭
@@M0ebius You just described our current party and the one before it.
Looking forward to seeing you take a look at Rogues next time. Soulknife is one of my favorite new things in Tasha's, probably second to Swarmkeeper, and I'd like to see some good analysis on it.
Soul knifes makes for excellent throwing builds. Ran one in a short campaign recently.
@@TheRobversion1 That's what I was thinking, good to hear a little confirmation.
@@ArtGuyCharlie my build outputted good single target dps while being the skill monkey of the group. Ran a fighter 2, soul knife 3, gloomstalker 5 (only gloomstalker 3 was needed. Put in 2 more levels for extra attack. You could delay build completion and go fighter 5, soul knife 3 and gloomstalker 3).
I think you're reading Vigilant Rebuke wrong. It deals damage to the creature that *forced* the save, not the creature that *made* the save, so this is only useful when you're up against enemies who are forcing the *party* to make saves round after round, which isn't very common.
As a whole, I very much agree with your assessment, and I also think this is a good way to take the Paladin. Paladins didn't need crazy buffs, they didn't need some significantly power crept subclasses to keep up with the more powerful classes, and they didn't get any. They got something unique, but circumstantial.
Another possible use of the capstone is if your party is stuck on another plane. All you have to do is punch your teammates, let them willingly fail the save, and they return to the material plane.
I love the flavor of Watchers oath but it seemed so... lackluster to me mechanically. Thanks as always for your insights!
Agreed 100%. Love that theme. Kinda let down mechanically...
I LOVE the Oath of the Watchers paladin, but then, as a DM I also love the concept of extraplanar invasions ... or at least extraplanar incursions. And I love that the subclass abilities are as effective against Puck or Oberon as against Jubilex or a Balor.
That said, I admit that I have a personal bias; because *I* love hellspawn and *Things Man Was Not Meant to Know* doesn't mean every DM will. I also understand that the 20th-level capstone for the Oath of the Watchers is circumstantial, but ... since I've been playing (since 1980, so 40 years now), I have not ONCE gotten a character above 14th level. Also, since it is now POSSIBLE to multiclass paladins (n00bs: see any edition from 1st through 3.x), I tend to do so. A LOT. This may be just me, but I love combining paladin with Hexblade or Celestial warlock, or with just about any kind of sorcerer. So the capstone ability is a non-issue for me, though I ALSO understand that, again, this is a personal consideration.
But really, a 20th-level capstone should have minimal effect on a subclass review, since most campaigns last only to level 11-13. ;)
See invisibility allows you too see the invisible creature, but it doesn’t negate the invisible condition so they still get all the benefits of the spell and you just wasted a second level spell slot.
Imagine a Watcher paladin fighting against Celestials.
Because of Tasha's, I built a Drow Paladin of Conquest with Blind Fighting for an upcoming game.
WRT the 15th-level Rebuke - a niche case, perhaps, but if an enemy forces multiple members of your party to make a mental save, and some fail but at least one succeeds, this gives you a chance to potentially break their concentration _really_ early.
... Assuming you didn't just Counterspell it to begin with.
Watchers just feels too campaign specific for me.
I feel like it fits a wide variety of settings, Orders, or whatnot. I just don't like the mechanics. Any situation in which I'd consider playing this, I'd probably just go with Devotion.
That 7th level aura is reeeally sick though, but only if you’re in an optimized party with competent and efficient players. If your party fucks around and wastes turns, then it’s pretty much pointless.
It's not "too". From fairies to friends, those all are very common creature types for a lot of campaings. There can be some encounters where some features are less useful, but overall you need a very specific campaign for Watchers Paladin to *not* be useful.
I''m fine with slightly circumstantial classes, especially with the Paladin base class being so strong. If you want a demon hunter theme this thing delivers.
@@M0ebius you can tryhard with it though, try to buff the initiative for yourself even more?
Thanks for the break down and I love it but I can’t lie I want to see what you think about the Soul Knife.
Soul knife is a great chassis for an optimized throwing build + skill monkey.
Warding bond requires a pair of rings that you and your target must wear. I'm not sure how I would put it on my horse. On the ear maybe?
Nose, ear, legs, teeth, tail, neck, cock(if your into that)
@@zhangbill1194 😆
@@zhangbill1194Steed: 75gp
Platinum ring: 100gp
Trying to convince my dm of that final choice: priceless.
I think this would be a good option in any campaign if only that 20th level ability provided any bonus at all to every combat. Advantage on mental stat saves would be enough, even though it won't help every combat, it's going to help in a lot. Even without that though, it's a cool option and I would happily play it. Counterspell alone is pretty damn amazing.
Toss a coin to your watcher 🎶
Oh valley of plenty 🎶
This brings up something I think is extremely important . . . players and game masters are supposed to cooperate to tell a story together. If a player is investing twenty levels into a class designed to fight various sorts of outsiders that should be something the GM is aware of and that fits into the world being crafted and the story being told. Circumstantial powers shouldn't be such a big deal because when the player got the OK to play this class the GM also should have been saying "I'll give you circumstances where this is useful, perhaps even essential".
I know somebody is going to scream "But players should have complete control over their character!" or "But game masters should have complete control over the setting/story!" but both of those take away from the game. If what the players want to DO doesn't fit with the opportunities the GM wants to give them at best somebody isn't having as much fun as they'd like, and at worst it ruins the experience for more than one person.
Working together is essential. A really good circumstantial ability is just "really good" if you are in the right campaign. :)
Players: Oh so you are a Paladin! you must be a good guy then!
Oath of the Watchers Paladin when they hear a village has been corrupted by extra-planetary forces: "When we hunt, we kill! No one is safe! Nothing is sacred! We are The Watchers! We are the last line of defense! We will burn our own to hold the red line, it is the last line to ever hold!"
I will say concerning their 15th lvl ability, that this may work nice to at least slightly punish a creature for using their legendary reactions to auto save on spells.
This has come up for me as earliest as 11th lvl play as a spellcaster, and the creatures could just nullify my save or suck spells w/ no negative repercussions.
At least w/ this ability, they could get punished a little and not get away scott free.
In my case the monster had 3 auto save reactions so the paladin could do an extra 21 damage to him minimum at least.
Again, not the greatest 15th lvl ability, but w/ legendary reactions coming up a lot at higher lvls, will be in play a bit.
Question: does the blind fighting allow you to avert your gaze and don't suffer disadvantage if the creature you are attacking is within those 10ft of you?
Yes
Not sure what you mean by this question. If you already have disadvantage from, say, being restrained and you're trying to fight something within 10ft, then trying to look away and use blind fighting isn't going to negate that disadvantage. You need a source of advantage in order to cancel out a source of disadvantage, like being unseen yourself.
However, it does eliminate the disadvantage you would normally get from being unable to see the attacker.
@@muhammadmousa4192 that was exactly what I intended, thanks.
I was asking because I didn't consider this particular aspect of being able to see creatures you wouldn't normally see. (I'm playing a paladin with this fighting style...and... man it will be cool!)
So oath of watchers are basically 40k Grey Knights for d&d.
Just like the chapter in question, I feel that this is an extremely niche subclass. In an out of the abyss or descent into avernus campaign it would be ridiculous but I couldn't see it being as viable as the other paladin classes in a regular campaign.
Thoughts on allowing paladin to take two weapon fighting? I'm thinking dual welder and extra sites for a nova build. Probably not optimized but thematically awesome
Its because most nova builds are 2-handed or archery. In eother case i wouldnt. Lots of good paladin stuff are bonus actions: smite spells, vow of enmity, etc.
the best bet really is to go PAM if you want bonus action atk smites or action surge+dread ambusher (gloomstalker) for 1st round nova or double smites with eldritch smite (hexblade). Or if you want to go single strike setups, the grave domain+booming blade paladin can churn out great one-shots.
I’d allow it. Dual wielding is one of the weakest fighting styles so allowing a Paladin to gain access isn’t game breaking. While yes, some spells and channel divinities may take up your bonus action if your sole focus is just going ham with divine smites dual wielding is great. And although this comes up late, improved divine smite also really helps with your damage output and it combines well with the bonus action attack. Your probably gonna wanna take the dual wielder feat depending on your weapon of choice.
You are probably better off with Polearm Master to get a bonus action attack.
Polearm Master with staff/spear + shield + Dueling FS strictly dominates TWF.
Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but would the "Loyalty" tenet of the oath prevent you from being in the same party as a fiend pact warlock? It says you can't accept gifts or favors from fiends and specifically those who "truck" with them(which I looked up and means to be involved with). So does this mean that the whenever the warlock tried to offer a gift or do some sort of favor for the paladin(which has a very wide definition of what counts) that the paladin would be bound by their oath to refuse or break their oath?
A mean referee could extend that to tieflings, as their ancestors trucked with fiends. XD
I think it'd be fun to play a Tiefling Genie Warlock, and tempt the Watcher Pally with various 'wishes'.
Don't diss channel divinity for Oath of Ancients. I sent a nasty demon running once as a turn one action. The poor spider demon only got to bite the Yuan-Ti pureblood in the party before it had to run. The DM seemed a little miffed.
Hey Chris,
Are you going to be returning to the cleric subclasses to finish out the cleric builds similar to your wizard builds for each subclass? I'm a big fan of the build guides
I wasn't planning on it - Cleric is a lot less versatile than wizard so I don't know that I could come up with a significantly different yet still effective build for each domain.
Let's be honest, if you're going watcher then you've spoken to your dm who's said "dw you'll have a chance to use your features at least some of the time, u aint saying when or how" and you're choosing it thematically anyway.
138 - 0
Thanks for the video!
yo what do i have to do to play with you? step by step
Between this oath and redemption, which oath that gets counterspell would you say is stronger?
this though redemption gets wall of force (very late though).
This one.
Hmmm, Chris maybe I missed something but I thought that Blessed Warrior was really good over any other fighting style? Really surprise me your evaluation about it being so low. I mean, you get two cantrips, that is great. Paladins don't have any good ranged option, so sacred flame and toll the dead are really nice additions, and you can eve chose one cantrip jus for flavor or something used outside of combat like guidance. The other fighting styles make you a bit little better in something you already do or are quite situational while blessed warrior make you capable of things useful all the time that you otherwise can't or isn't really suited to do.
Personally imo, i'd rate it lower because you should be picking stuff that accentuate the paladin"s strengths and function in the party instead of shoring up weaknesses. Thats what your party members are for. I"d only take something that shores up a weakness if it didnt come with an opportunity cost to take an ability that would make me.better at what i do. Duelling, gwf, etc are opportunity costs for blessed warrior.
@@TheRobversion1 Thanks for the insight, it's a really good point to be consider. Thinking about it, I would still prefer Blessed warrior because to me the advantage you get for those options that focus on your strength are really small (the +2 at low level are interesting but soon become a minor thing, and gwf is just meh), while the advantage the Blessed warrior gives to your choice (be it ranged cantrip atks or something like guidance) is really big compared to what you have until that point. It gives you so much versatility (you can even chage the cantrips) at such small cost, it's basically half a feat (magic initiate). Will be my go to when a play a paladin, but I understand why ppl would prefer a straight buff like the others options.
@@FlautistaGhost yeah i understand. I was just speaking from an optimization standpoint. Those extra points to dmg add up and make a difference as to whether you're dealing with a dead enemy or not (especially if your paladin is attacking multiple times a round). i also personally like superior fighting technique in my builds to add in control elements and not just dmg. As for ranged options for the paladin, i've never wanted for one as i"ve said either the party handles it or i simply use jump+thrown weapons (flying) and the paladin comes with find steed anyway for land based distance. Plus way i see it, i'd just be using that cantrip on the opening round before i can close distance (find steed) or bring the enemy down (thrown weapon + trip attack for flying). Now if the reason to take blessed warrior was you wanted to add some cantrips for utility such as the mentioned guidance then thats a valid reason, though in that case, i'd probably just take it early then swap it for another fighting style once i can get magic initiate cleric (and pick up a 1st level spell while i'm at it).
Is there a paladin that is EVEN better at killing undead? That's the only non-humanoid creature type I would expect to be fighting at all levels of play. The watcher has one of the most annoying oaths, as many of the summoning spells conjure the things you hate, and then you have to get into an argument with the wizard or warlock afterwards. Even a tiefling that knows their parent could get shade or worse thrown at them from a Watcher paladin.
Looking forward to your discussion of the Soulknife.
Due to the strength of the baseline Paladin, I don't think it's possible to have a weak Paladin. That said, I think this is among the lower oaths. In fact, I think I'd mostly forget that I had a subclass at all.
Yeah, the improved Turn is nice. Meh.
The paladin spell list is good enough that adding more is meh.
Boosting the initiative of tanks is meh, and having the squishies clustered around the Paladin is a big no.
It's not that any of these are bad. But the opportunity costs mean that pretty much any other oath would give you more.
Giving the whole party +prof to initiative is meh? I would call it the strongest aura any paladin has access to. Initiative is usually the single most important roll in combats, in a game where typical encounters only last 3-4 rounds.
@@muhammadmousa4192 10ft radius. 1 AoE disables everyone. Good tactic.
@@ChristnThms But the paladin is also giving you all +4 to every save. Seems like the scenario you're describing would be pretty uncommon. Plus, if you beat the thing with your initiative (which you probably will) then you don't have to stay clustered during the fight.
@@muhammadmousa4192 If your DM lets you get away with that, then you're playing on easymode. Cluster up, get AoEd. Just like the players would do to the monsters. How powerful would it feel if your Wizard and Bard both failed their WIS save against a Hypnotic Pattern? I mean, I wouldn't bother fireballing. That's only a half step up from easymode.
Seriously, if your DM doesn't have the enemies use tactics against you, then you can do anything and still win. It's a gimme. If you cluster up, you deserve to eat an AoE. You're asking for it. In fact, fuck the cluster idea. If there is ever a situation where an obvious heavy tank and obvious caster are next to each other, AoE. The caster is the real target, and if you can clip the wings on the tank at the same time, bonus.
The whole point of a front row - back row set up is that your front row pushes in and forces a reaction. This splits the enemies between reacting/defending and being concerned with your back row. This ONLY works if they have to choose. If they can hit you all at once, you've done their work for them. Congratulations.
Now, I'd agree that at 18 it becomes a big deal. Not only is the area massive at that point, but the bonus is bigger too. But how many games actually play at that level? Right. So, in reality, the Initiative boost is for the Paladin and maybe one other PC, and they're probably both tanks. Certainly, this is good. But not nearly as good as giving the casters a boost to initiative.
@@sharkforce8147 if you think the odds are in your favor... go ahead. Obviously, if there's no risk, then any gain is essentially free.
I mean, if I could get my wizard to consistently go first by standing next to the Paladin, that would be great. It's the risk that makes it less beneficial. So, if you don't think there's any risk...
What a powercreep. This channel divinity versus Arcane Domain Cleric CD...
To be fair, that channel divinity is absolutely terrible.
Good luck for warlock who try to flirt with the watchers
I don't find the subclass abilities to be as limiting as it appears. aberration, celestial, elemental, fey, or fiend - these are the things you are worried about causing TPKs. "oh no, I'm not as powerful against beasts and undead", you're still a paladin. Smite them.
Respectfully I disagree with your assessment of the level 15 ability. 2d8+charisma for no resource than a reaction which might not get used otherwise isn't bad. It might break concentration and it lessens the sting of an enemy succeeding a save. Also, it does more damage than a martial character would, in general, outside their turn. Admittedly, last I checked and itz been awhile, most of the things in the monster manual don't have great mental saves.
Cast Warding Bond targetting yourself - probably not RAI but is it RAW?
yes. you would gain +1 ac and if you ever get hit you'll die from infinite damage. just use shield of faith instead.
@@samueldrunkard6129 Why would it be infinite damage? Even if you assume a feedback loop, if you (as the WB target) are dealt 10 damage, it’s resisted to 5 dmg, then you (as the WB caster) take 5 dmg but resists it (as the WB target) to 2 dmg, then take 2 dmg but resists it to 1 dmg. 5+2+1=8 total damage, and voila you’ve prevented 2 damage and kept your +1 AC and +1 save.
Obviously there’s also an issue if you’re concentrating and making a bunch of concentration saves, but WB would reduce most damage into DC10 saves, which after Paladin 6 you can get into auto-save territory.
Commenting to support the channel, but in general: A paladin without a subclass would already be a B+ or A tier class. Any improvements on that chassis is just whipped cream.
Agree. I have a lvl 16 SC Conquest Paladin in AL and even when the entire mod is against frightened immune creatures, he still cleans house. The paladin chassis is really solid even without class features
@@Sigourney-Cleaver Those higher level AL modules do not mess around either!
Having Aribeth at 6:05 got me triggered
why?
@@inMYtimeOFneed92 She fell, after all the effort I put to save neverwinter she chose to fall...
Not really part of the video, but Spirit shroud is also pretty good on a Warlock especially on a hexblade, due to its Scaling and their unique spell preogression.
And I feel that Harness divine Power is excellent on Paladins, due to their limited spell levels.
Yeah it’s pretty good with EB, but practically speaking you kinda have to take Crossbow Expert or Gunner to mitigate against the 10ft range.
@@M0ebius Yeah, for a classic EB-Lock it it quite the setup, but I'm looking forward to take it on my GWM-Hexblade, who smacks you about all nice and personal like in melee range.
@@TainakaRicchan maximize the output by adding fighter 2 action surge and gloomstalker 3 dread ambusher for more attacks on the 1st round. At level 10 (5 hex, 2 fighter, 3 stalker), you can churn out 6 attacks on round 1. Boss and possibly a couple of minions will be dead. Throw in an eldritch smite for good measure.
This sublcass reminds me of the watchers of the wall in game of thrones.
Overall though a meh subclass. Not bad but not as awesome as vengeance or conquest either.
Imo theres nothing to build around in the watchers paladin. It feels like the champion fighter. The initiative bonus is the only standout ability.
Really boring subclass. Don't see why it would get picked over the others, either.