"Not All Men"
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- In which I have a little man to man talk with the "good guys"... because I can be pretty certain I'm talking mostly to men on this channel.
I guess I should link to the White Sea Studios video:
• This is disturbing...
Also, one of the guys I clipped in this video has taken down his review and posted an apology in its place, and I feel kind of bad now for picking on him...
• Video
Several people have mentioned this Benn Jordan video, which I hadn't seen before. It's very good, and very relevant:
• Why Aren't There More ...
FYI: I'm leaving most comments up, regardless of whether I agree with them, but if you're just trolling you'll get the boot. My channel, my rules.
If you like this type of content and you want to see it more often, consider signing up for Channel Membership: / @danworrall
Video edited with VEGAS Pro 17:
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Listen, I am in tears as I hear your words. Thank you so much for speaking up on this issue. As a female music producer and working on the music industry since I was 15, I have been through it all. I am enountered by obstacles of sexism all the time. I am almost always asumed that I don't know technical facts, for instance, and the men in the group will over explain thing to me without knowing me. The main thing that keeps me going is my love for music, and that if I don't do it, I will feel like I wasted my life not doing what I love. So I keep on doing it regardless of the result.
Hello!!1 of 1000 >_
I'm not saying this is always the case; it's not, but many people in your situation misinterpret the approach of "assuming" things.
You can't assume shit about someone you don't know. I work with a lot of people who are A-tier and they don't know shit about anything technical. What I say to them is the exact same content as how I speak to anyone I meet; including female producers. I might use a softer tone around females because I'm more comfortable with doing that around them and I've had this be an issue in the past... Until they actually get to know me, know i'm non-binary and have a masters in gender studies.
In some cases (i mean you're one of 1000 afterall, right?) people might just be nice.
As a man being in a few different higher level interests and spending a lot of time around older men in engineering and aerospace, they do exactly the same thing to me. My dad does the same thing to me, he explains the same thing over and over again.
Your "examples" are not sexism, it's just men, and no it's not a problem.
@@JZStudiosonline When she said who was doing these things to her, she said 'men'. When you explained who did these things to you, you said 'older men', including your dad. There's a difference in your statements.
@@Catophlix "One of these things is a potato. The other is a potato."
Was watching your fabfilter tutorials and headed over to your channel. At first I was scared seeing a video saying not all men not really knowing what would be said but am happy I did end up clicking on it. As a female audio engineer running the oldest recording studio in SF, this subject has unfortunately has become an unavoidable topic. Really appreciate you speaking on this and hope more do so we can just make cool music and all chill.
@@tophan5146 Do you run out of gas in your vehicle a lot? You pretty much don't. But it is something you must always anticipate and prevent.
Except imagine always having to anticipate it and not being able to know when it's going to happen or being actually able to do anything about it, and then if you're extra lucky you get blamed for it on top of it. It doesn't actually have to be an everyday occurrence to just want to sod right off and not deal with it. Verbal forms of harassment are common enough, and it's obviously a shared mindset, just lack of respect for people. Inappropriate touch and more severe forms are rarer, but they do happen to pretty much all of us.
@@tophan5146 At this point you're excusing and defending abuse. Do you actually find this position defensible? Then you're the problem. You're "yes all men".
And "deal with it". How much do you have to "deal" with. Do people try to sneakily hug you or stroke your bits? Do we just "it's normal, deal with it". Or hey, what if they force themselves on you do you just "eh, it happens, deal with it". There is usually remarkably little recourse, and yes, it sometimes also happens to men, and then men have as little recourse as women or less, and that is terrible just the same. Just because abuse isn't narrowly limited to women doesn't make it better!
And as to verbal abuse, do you have to deal with people doubting your craft just because you're a man? "this guy sure fucked his way through the knitting competition".
Abuse doesn't make creative endeavours and technical endeavours better. It just makes people miserable, and maintains positions of a handful influential hacks and bullies.
@@tophan5146 Every part of this argument is pathetic.
1. "stand up for yourself":
a. when women do, they are often pushed out of social/professional networks, shamed, etc. Women are *often* put into the position of "if I stand up for myself and speak out against this man who's been harassing me, and people side with the man (as they so often do) I may be jeopardizing my career" Just look, for example, at the victims of Harvey Weinstein. The reason people like him get away with harassing and assaulting as many women as they do is because women don't want to kiss their dreams of a Hollywood career goodbye.
If you want to make "just stand up for yourself" a more useful piece of advice, just do what Dan says in this video: As a man, make it perfectly clear that you don't tolerate harassment and that if a woman stands up for herself, you're going to stick up for her, make sure her side of the story is heard and given credibility, and not tolerate retaliation. Do something with your inherent unearned social privilege rather than putting the burden on the victim.
b. There have been *several* cases of women getting raped and/or murdered simply for saying "no" to a guy who asked them out. This is easier said than done.
2. "HR already heavily siding with women nowadays"
a. At least in the context of the music industry, a lot of interactions don't involve companies with HR departments, they involve individuals in small companies or freelancers. So this point is largely moot.
b. I'm not sure where you get this idea, but you or *someone* made it up. HR tends to protect the person with more power or who is higher in the company hierarchy, which tends to be the man in workplace disputes. There are countless examples of HR routinely ignoring or inadequately addressing womens' complaints.
3. "Effectively you communicate you can’t stand up for yourself and need other men to protect you as if you’re a powerless princess."
See 1.a.
4. "If you don’t like people doubting your craft then just focus on proving them wrong with being the best performer you can be"
So we're just going to ignore the fact that if you take a man and a woman and put them both at mixing consoles, the man will be taken more seriously as a professional before either of them touches a fader? They shouldn't have to prove wrong the preconceived notions of bigots before they can get on with their work. Telling people to just ignore harassment and bias from the majority population is a convenient way to, again, put the burden on individual victims instead of on the majority culture.
5. Don't get me fucking started on "diversity quotas"
Thank you, Dan. There's one housewife / obsesesive amateur experimental musician who's just a little less nervous about talking to people about music. Hope my subscription knocks you into that rare "0.2%" club.
Up to 1.4% female now, with your help. We're making progress!
u still do music?
@@RedButtonTV1 lol
@@KattKirsch ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
I've only just recently discovered your channel, and I have to admit that my heart stopped when I saw the title of the video.
All I can say is thank you for speaking up. As a female producer/recording/mixing engineer, so much of this shit is like a daily occurrence. We get told that we just need to grow a thick skin in order to be in the music industry, and so the ones of us who survive do end up doing just that, but it really shouldn't be that way. I'm a mod of one of the largest mixing and mastering groups on Facebook (of which I see you are a member!), and it feels almost daily that my gender comes up, and suddenly the advice that was given previously, and was accepted as sound, is being pulled apart, dissected, and dismissed, while a man offering the exact same advice, usually posting after me, is praised and thanked for his contribution.
Watching the other mods there get nothing but respect, while I get dismissed is endlessly frustrating, yet I was made a mod for the same reasons that they were - because my level of knowledge and experience was decent, and I was giving good advice. Not saying I'm an expert or anything, just that, most of the time, I know what I'm talking about. Having my own advice explained back to me gets endlessly tiresome, and I've booted a significant number of people from the group who became abusive when I pointed it out.
This doesn't even go into the IRL stuff, and is purely within that group - it only gets worse from there.
Grow a thicker skin to survive as a woman? No. Change the industry so that women just coming into it don't have to experience the same bullshit that we did.
Anyway, that turned into more of a rant than I'd intended. Thank you
Whenever Sylvia Massey is asked about this, she says she never experienced this supposed sexist nightmare of oppression and degradation that apparently is keeping women from becoming Grammy winning multimillionaire producers and engineers.
I'm from that 0.1% and I greatly appreciate you addressing this issue! Thanks, man!
What do you think why other women do not visit this place?
@@JM_2019 Pardon my question, but I'm not sure what tone you're using. 😅 Are you expecting a real answer or is this a cynical comment? I don't mean to be rude it just doesn't come through text for me
@@dasytaylorPlease forgive me not being a native english speaker and probably also having a different cultural background. Just trying to understand the issue why women would not visit this place although they want when there is no restricted access.
@@JM_2019 I'm glad then!!
I think it's a complex thing. I don't want to repeat what's said in the video, so I'll just add a few things.
In my experience women are usually taken less seriously when they're doing anything tech-y, not just music tech, whereas guys are more or less "expected" to be comfortable around computers. They influence each others' interests, and men simply invest more time into playing around with softwares, and develop and incorporate it into their hobbies and work because it's "normal" for them.
I think a lot of it really comes down to the "my friends are doing it" or "this person who I admire is doing it" idea. Women don't see the same positive and inspiring example as men do, and when they try tapping into territories that's outside of "what's expected", they're met with uncomfortable situations. So they just... avoid it in general, to avoid casual sexism or worse thrown at them.
Additionally, you have the UA-cam algorhythm, which I'm no expert on, but in my experience it can push you into a bubble of content and not let you explore much on the platform unless you're specifically looking for a certain content. Like I did here. UA-cam knows your gender and will incorporate that into your recommendations. Which is funny, because this kind of content's supposed to have nothing to do with gender, yet our culture influences our interests, and the algorhytm reinforces it.
(An interesting question one could ask themselves is "how many male vs female youtubers am I following or watching their content of?" The male friends I asked barely consume content from female youtubers at all, and my female friends said it's about 50-50 for them, which I found very interesting.)
@@dasytaylor It is because men are generally more interested in things and women are more generally interested in people. That's just basic psychology. Now you can guess ehy certain areas are crowded with men, and other areas and niches are packed with women.
When your channel gender stats came up I laughed so hard. Like properly laughed out loud sat here alone in my studio. I knew it was coming too, but it still just creased me up.
I know you see that ratio as sign of as inherent sexism in this industry but I'm honestly not convinced on that (assuming we're talking about the western world where I assume the majority of your channel views come from). Sexism absolutely exists in this industry, but I'm not convinced that sexism is the reason your channel only has 13 women watching it...
I work with loads of amazing talented female songwriters, artists, vocal arrangers and session singers. Of the maybe 50 professional music producers I know, only one of them is female (she's an absolute beast, amazing producer). You could argue that this in itself is proof of inherent sexism, but here's the thing - all of those female songwriters, arrangers and singers have macbooks with logic installed, they're in the industry already and they have every opportunity to get a 'track' placed if they want to give it a go, they know loads of producers who'd be happy to help them get started, but the 'nerdy' side of engineering and production - the fiddly repetitive minute detail stuff - just does not interest them. Not because they're not smart enough, or they won't get it, but because *it just doesn't interest them* .
In my experience they are overwhelmingly far more interested in the other areas I've mentioned - connecting with people through a lyric or a melody or their voice, rather than checking the phase on forty stereo pairs and making sure you didn't miss an edit or a bus routing. That's a conscious choice, and I think that's OK. In fact you could argue that to not recognise that it *is* a conscious choice could almost be construed as patronising. There's a reason you don't see many girls in the warhammer shop, or at MTG conventions, and I genuinely don't believe sexism is that reason. There is a proper meta analysis of many studies that shows that *generally speaking* men are more interested in *things* and women are more interested in *people* . This statement rings true to my real life experience, and it also rings true when you look at job distributions between genders in countries where opportunities between the sexes are considered the most equalised, like Sweden.
I'm not saying any of this to push some kind of sinister meninist agenda, or to say that sexism doesn't exist in this industry, it does. I say this mainly because I don't think you should feel bad about that gender ratio stats, and I think your statement about half the population being forcefully 'excluded' from music tech was a bit hyperbolic. These types of in depth audio production videos are pretty niche and nerdy already, and yours are the MOST niche and nerdy (which is why we love you). The nicher and nerdier your videos are on almost *any* subject, the harder your gender ratio will skew male.
Of coures, the sexual harassment stats are horrible, and that absolutely IS an issue in this industry, but I've heard as many creepy stories about (or sometimes from) young lads in boy bands as I have about young girls, so I'd say framing that as an issue of sexism rather than an issue of just nasty predatory execs preying on young people could be missing the point. Either way it's an issue that needs addressing, that's for sure. I think this industry has get a hollywood/weinstein esque era of uncovering horrible truths yet to come, and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.
As a side note - I think the real sexism around our job culture is that we've somehow decided that those jobs that are primarily people based and therefore largely attract women - carers, nurses (and many other healthcare fields that are dominated by women), support workers - are paid SO poorly in most cases. These people should be valued much more highly.
Oh, and I agree on the plug-in. It's juvenile and embarrassing.
good and sensible post
@@roadtonever Sorry, I don't understand. Do you think I'm feigning concern and jumping to conclusions, or Dan?
@@roadtonever Oh ok. I disagree. I don't think he's clout chasing or virtue signaling. I actually think it's lazy and cynical to assume a sinister subtext hidden in someone else's statements when you have no way of knowing what they were truly thinking at the time. People seem to do this constantly now and it's one of the biggest issues with modern social media discourse in my opinion.
I just think the plug-in (and the juvenile gleeful response to it) pissed him off a bit, and he went on a bit of a rant expressing his views on sexism in the industry, which I actually agreed with for the most part.
I just thought some of this views were slightly hyperbolic and there were important aspects of the issue he hadn't considered, and I wanted to point that out.
Hmmm. Have to agree with you on some parts and disagree on some.
The parts I agreed on were that most females tend to be interested in other less technical areas of music production lime vocal production for eg., and that sexism is not the main cause that they make up very less of the community.
However I completely disagree with your opinion of the Nani plugin.
To me the plugin is beautiful, and provides good sounds as well.
[I'm not sexist or an incel; I just don't get how a simple erotic plugin designed to be used by bedroom producers in the privacy of their own rooms harms how women view the producer community and before anyone says something like "what if the genders were reversed" so what? I'm still buying the damn plugin; makes no difference if an oddly proportionate giant schlong just popped out to indicate the amount of bit crushing i'm doing on the track. I'm still buying that shit. It's entertaining.].
Oh and I'm sure someone like Sydsnap (just google her YT channel) would be very proud of it. :D
While I agree wholeheartedly with your general message here about not tolerating sexism, in any form, the assumption that sexism is what leads to the extreme gender imbalance in your view count is just silly. Taking myself as an example, I am a true hobbyist when it comes to audio production. I watch these videoes out of curiosity and for tinkering in my home studio. I read on some forums, but I rarely interact. I have no exposure to the "audio industry" and any discrimination within it. And yes, I am male. I'm pretty sure a significant number of views would fall into this category. I don't see any reason why sexism would drive away women from coming from the same approach.
There are several areas of interest which attracts an uneven gender balance. Explaining this by a fundamential underlying sexism is just out of touch with reality in my view.
I would be interested in seeing the numbers from say 20 years ago, vs today. Edgelord culture has really shat on women.
Exactly
"Well, I'm not blaming you. But I am talking to you"
This is brilliant, thank you!
In the post production industry there are many female sound editors, sound designers, dialogue editors and re-recording mixers. And a damn fine thing that is. Mixed environments have always fared better in my experience than single-gender environments. By that I am referring to mostly male teams. And I welcome that change, that normalization away from pure boy clubs. It prevents a lot of inappropriate things from happening. The jokes, the lurid looks/stares and the shitty attitudes. The earlier us boys learn to be classy, the better.
Even a lot of production sound mixers these days are women. It's good to see. Although the film industry can be an absolute nightmare in other ways for both men and women.
One question is, who is actually doing the harassing? I'd be curious to hear the thoughts of a woman who's experienced it and what sort of men were engaging in it. E.g. was it a coworker, a boss, an acquaintance, a friend, etc. All are capable of it in the broader context, but I'm just wondering what the dynamic tends to be.
Also, a link to that study would be appreciated. Even in STEM, papers are frequently falsified for the sake of funding/expediency, so it becomes very difficult to take anything at face value. That's not to say it's wrong, but that I don't know if it's right. Complicated meta issue.
Another assumption you've made is that more harassment = more driving out of the industry. While it's certainly plausible, and I'm sure it happens, it's a leap to assume it's the single most causative factor, or even a significant one. After all, would you give up on your dreams just because some scuzzball was pursuing a similar goal, or directly harassing you? We'd have to be talking about a pretty consistent amount of harassment for that to be the case imo (i.e. so much harassment from multiple sources that the career seems pointless), which while again is possible, seems less likely.
Aside: I don't have numbers, but as a fan of video game music, I can't help but notice the number of successful female composers hailing from Japan. E.g. Jun Chikuma, Manami Matsumae, Yoko Shimomura, composers of Bomberman, Megaman, and Street Fighter/Kingdom Hearts respectively. There really are a lot compared to the US - I have to wonder what cultural differences allowed for that to happen.
I agree with you
1. "who is actually doing the harassing?" Don't know, but the more important question is who is contributing to the culture where harassment is this common. And that's a personal question for all of us in the industry.
2. "it becomes very difficult to take anything at face value" Handy! I'm also going to use this line to dismiss anything that challenges my world view. 👌
3. "After all, would you give up on your dreams just because some scuzzball was pursuing a similar goal, or directly harassing you?" This is such a misrepresentation of the problem that I'm not even sure you understand what sexism is.
Hi from the 0.1%, it’s really nice to see people starting to push back against this toxic culture
I've tried to get my 16-year old daughter to try out mixing in my studio, but she doesn't seem interested. And that's even though she does have some interest in playing music (electric bass).
I don't know why, but throughout my music life, I've only ever run into 1 female audio engineer. She mastered one of my albums.
This is in Sweden. We are known for being the most "equal" society on Earth. It genuinely seems to be less interest for audio engineering amongst women, simply, because I see no reason to think anyone is holding women back from this. No bullying, no threats. Maybe at the top level of the industry, I can't say, but it doesn't explain why there are almost no female "hobbyist" audio engineers, as far as I can tell. It's not that there are a bunch of females who start out and then get scared out of the industry, it genuinely seems that there are barely any women who even start out at all.
I simply do not accept your premise, here.
@@karlosmartos4646 check the pinned comment, and tell me she doesn't matter..?
That women in general are less interested is maybe true. But that doesn't make any of this less important.
The women who are interested should be treated as equals. That's the point. Wether its one woman or 10 or a million. They need to be treated with respect and don't deserve to be put down and have their chances squashed.
And also: Allowing the few women who are there to show their talent to the world without impairment will in turn motivate more women to be interested too. That in itself will make interest grow.
At the moment it's just very much known as a boys club. Which historically, has never been favorable to women.
So whatever the situation. It's just a net positive for everyone involved to treat everyone with respect and not underestimate their potential based on gender.
Give that interest time to grow. Be part of the cultural change that gives that interest a chance to exist. And if it's not your daughter, maybe it's some other girl in her school who will reap the benefits later.
I do not see why you'd choose to focus on that one small point instead of seeing the importance of the message as a whole.
Studies show that more egalitarian societies have BIGGER gender differences in occupation which is counter-intuitive to the idea that gender differences is a sign of sexism HOWEVER I think Dan is still right
the point isn't that a non-50/50 split is evidence of sexism, the point is that even if a fair society produces a 99.9 male/0.1 female audio engineering demographic, its incredibly easy for men to "effectively" gatekeep the audio engineering spaces and make things toxic
let's say 99% of male audio engineers are not sexist, 1% of male audio engineers is still 10 times more than the existing number of female audio engineers
yes I technically pulled the "how many female engineers would exist in a completely fair society" statistic out of nowhere, but I'm fairly certain that number would change significantly with the existing sexism removed
even if removing sexism completely "only" changed the demographic from 0.1% female to 5% female, that's still a 50 times increase
Having been in the industry for over 20 years, I’ve absolutely seen women being excluded by gatekeepers, belittled, second guessed, harassed, demeaned, and abused, and it has to stop.
Yeah and a simple plugin (which was made for bedroom producers to fiddle around in their own privacy) signifies and amplifies that a lot.
Hmmmmm..........
Ive been in it since 84...This has been common for both XX and XY in my experience; unfortunately music seems to attract big egos because music is a balm for the broken hearted; both creators and listeners...and the old saying: 'Hurt people, hurt people' stands true.
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHA
well what have you been doing about it the last 20 years?
@@i-never-look-at-replies-lol Being the change! (but not by my intellect; higher power required :-) It is no longer true as it balances both ways now...but a look at many of music websites right now...shows a good and valued balance so someone has been at work hehe
Sylvia Massy. (Chilli peppers, Incubus, Johnny Cash etc) is serious inspiration.
Nobody should be automatically judged as a sexist fool any more than a woman should be judged as a sexual object. Our lesson from both these guys is to address immature and toxic behaviour whenever we see it. Also, to maintain focus on the real reasons we are here. "Love is music forever"
Also:
Delia Derbyshire, Laurie Anderson, Suzanne Cianni, Kelli Hand, Wendy Carlos, Kate Bush....hell, Mariah Carey and many more belong in the club of those females who write, program and/or self-produce their OWN music.
It's not just nut-sacks out there, and we can be a lot more positive about this.
Yeah just ban all porn. That'll solve all sexism.
@@shaft9000 trans rights btw 👀
@@nebroskitheraut6705 Then how would we contain the high libido nature of men without it resulting in a massive increase in rape and sexual abuse crime? Banning things usually don't solve the problem.
2:00 how is there a statistic of unreported cases when it says they are unreported?
Your political opinions are not controversial at all, at least not within mainstream culture in todays western democracies. But blaming a non-equal distribution between men and women in different fields solely on men (as if they would prevent women from entering), is quite stupid. In the end men and women are different.
Assuming that women are not interested in becoming sound engineers just because of a """"""" toxic """""""" environment or a silly obscure plugin is just laughable ! a lot of women become actresses or models in an environment a million times more toxic , women are also far more represented when it comes to musicians or singers ( in an era where a hit song can be called WAP ) , is it supposed to be something specific to the sound engineers " community " ? . So not only " not all men " but also F ... the virtue signallers , the puritans and the gaslighters ! your f in channel might not be appealing to women for a lot of different reasons that aren't related to the alleged toxicity of an imaginary majority ...
People like you existing in spaces like this made me feel less welcome in the industry. I stay because I don’t need you but you’re a thorn in the ass.
@@Jasperi what space ? Most of those jobs are done by one person alone in a studio these days ! Why would you need me ? Nothing i can do can stop you from doing anything you want ! There are no job interviews and no private clubs of any kind and very few irl interactions .... if you think that a few morons complaining about a plugin nobody uses are helping your carreer then good for you and btw aren t you happy to represent the 0.1 % of women watching this channel ? Don't you think that these channels about gears and plugins should be more diverse to include marginalized voices such as women , lgbtq peoole , pocs ....?from what i have noticed most of them share the same gender , skin color ..... I think that they are the only ones occupying a small space and they are perpetuating a blatant lack of diversity ,maybe their 99.9% audience are just at their image 😆 . So instead of virtue signalling they should actively help to increase diversity by just stepping down and leave more room for those who will be more inclusive to a diverse audience .
I don't see expressions of sexuality as a negative. Drawing, consuming and enjoying sexy art is not an act of sexual violence. In the form of a plugin, well sexiness in art is just an aesthetic, like horror, cute, retro, sleek, all just different aesthetics. Comparing a plugin that has a UI that embraces a sexy aesthetic to acts of sexual violence is quite a stretch.
i don't want hentai in my music software. i'll consider anime girls, but not full blown hentai... just give me plugins with a good design and great UX.
Sylvia Massey being the boldest audio engineer out there should be an obvious wakeup call. Yes, there are differences in interests between genders, that transcends cultural influence, but the differences seen in audio engineering are way too skewed to fall within the natural interests thing.
I hope we can start dismantling the problem and shutting it down. Everyone has known about this gender disparity forever.
Her story with Prince is also a great example of why women are cautious about getting into the studio world.
Exactly! I might add to it that Sylvia Massey didn't make it because of the circumstances in the audio world, but despite them. Uncounted women interested in engineering have been repelled and lost due to sexism and toxic male behaviour! Let's change this!
What happened with her & Prince? Susan Rogers still sings Princes praises. No?
@@barneymiller5488 The TL;DR is basically he made her mix a song just so he could fuck a girl to the song in the control room. I first saw this on the now renamed Gear Space QA she did, and also in her interview with Redbull Music Academy.
@Soldagg the idea isn't to enforce a 50/50 ratio. The idea is to remove the direct resistance that keeps women from sticking to their interests. The women who want to work in the field shouldn't have to quit because they are met with toxicity and resistance.
Thank you! I have two young daughters and while encouraging their interest in music every chance I get, I worry about where it could lead them. It's wonderful to know that industry pros are standing up against crap like this.
But if they ignore you and decide to become audio engineers, you're happy for them to get demeaned and sexually abused?
@@DanWorrall Haha yes, because that's automatically given. Stop making up things.
@@osnad I don't understand how a father could not be outraged at the mere possibility.
@@DanWorrall Because when we've reached that point, I hope that I've done a good enough job as a father, so that she can stand up for herself, wherever life takes her.
Holy shit. Seriously? Just throw her to the wolves? Wow.
Dan, I absolutely love your videos, but I have to disagree with this video.
Let me first say that sexism and discrimination in the industry are disgusting and should be discouraged and looked down upon as much as possible! If any of those statistics are true, than that is disgusting and should be addressed! I also agree that it's important to have good woman role models to encourage women into this field. I encourage and support all women with an interest in music tech with merit to succeed in this field.
However, your video has quite a few leaps of logic. Just because you have 99% views from men does not automatically mean sexism. This is essentially "The God (Sexism) of the Gaps" fallacy, where disparities between men and women are automatically assumed to be due to sexism. There could be any number of explanations. As others have pointed out with the preference of things vs. people studies that apply across cultures and even species. This does not mean sexism can't contribute, but it's silly to chalk it all up to sexism.
This is anecdotal, but I have not seen any women being dissuaded from entering the music tech field. On the contrary, I see a lot of encouragement for women to enter, which I think is great! I'm not going to say this doesn't happen, but I have seen little evidence to support the claim. However, I have seen some harassment in this field. I really do not believe this problem is a cultural thing but an individual problem with creeps being within this industry (as they are in every industry). These people should be completely condemned, as Jeremy Soule was. The difference is that I think the problem is individuals, not the overarching culture.
I also don't understand how the culture of music tech would be dissuading women from entering. The culture of Hollywood is monumentally worse than that of music tech, but Hollywood has an enormous amount of women. Sexism seems too simple a lens!
Also, I fail to see how one fringe plugin with hentai on it is contributing to this culture of harassment etc. Small developers can develop whatever they want. This is what artistic expression is. I agree that this expression has no place on a professional plugin like FF or Izotope, but I just do not agree with suppressing or demonizing the artistic expression of these small developers. If a woman wanted to create a plugin with objectified cartoon men, I don't think many of us would have a problem with this. However, it should be said that it would be completely unprofessional and maybe even harassment to use that plugin in a professional studio, in either scenario. But if people want to use this plugin and make jokes about it on their own private channels, what's the problem? I think complaining about 1 fringe plugin belittles actual victims of harassment which should be addressed! Where's the evidence that artists drawing hentai for a piece of software contributes to the assault of women? Not to mention, there are many women that like hentai and there's even a large amount of hentai / NSFW artists that are women!
I appreciate your video and point of view, but I just think it's a bit shortsighted.
But dont you think that everyone can make these assumptions and view the video for its actual purpose instead of just looking for any way out of feeling attacked?
Also its not a god of the gaps argument, and he wasnt actually saying that his statistics are sexist, rather that he has the audience that should be adressed.
I'm sorry to say this but I think you need to stop thinking of yourself as being clever enough to bring counterpoints, and more as just as clever as the rest of the audience meaning you can parse the video for its actual intent. Yes we all know, but we can focus on the actual points, not distract by strawmanning, logical extremes, motte and bailey arguments or whatever I used to think was a good modus operandi when encountering shit like this.
@@thaDjMauz "But dont you think that everyone can make these assumptions and view the video for its actual purpose instead of just looking for any way out of feeling attacked? "
What do you mean by this? And I don’t feel attacked, I just respectfully disagree with Dan’s assessment for the reasons I laid out.
"Also its not a god of the gaps argument, and he wasnt actually saying that his statistics are sexist, rather that he has the audience that should be adressed."
He literally is saying that this statistic is due to sexism…“Are men 1000 times more interested in music tech, or is there a toxic culture of sexism that tells women they won’t be taken seriously…” He then lists a bunch of “proof” for this discrepancy. The stats he presents gives no proof of a bad culture, but may be chalked up to toxic individuals (if they are in fact accurate, to my knowledge they didn't provide their methods for their dataset so it's not exactly scientific). Then he posts a fringe joke plugin as “proof”. By and large, this culture does not support sexual harassment, these are individuals that should be called out. Also, making sexual jokes on your private channel is not harassment. If you are offended by this, just avoid that channel. Individuals can do whatever they want on their personal channels. The problem is when this leaks into professional settings.
"Yes we all know, but we can focus on the actual points, not distract by strawmanning, logical extremes, motte and bailey arguments or whatever I used to think was a good modus operandi when encountering shit like this."
You have given absolutely no proof of me strawmanning or motte and baileying his points. I feel that I had addressed all of his points directly. Just because we disagree does not mean that I am challenging his opinions in bad faith. I think open dialogue and disagreement are essential in finding truth. I respect Dan Worall and his opinions, I just disagree.
In fact I hate having only guys as co workers. What a stupid, boring and egocentric thing
Thank you so much for this, Dan. It's time we did something about this. Men need to encourage our culture and our behaviour, and treat women (and any other person) with RESPECT. Cheers, mate!
Just last week I sent an email to an address I found online for you - turns out it wasn't the first time the OTHER sound engineer Dan Worrall has had to reply to your fan mail! I replied "oh god I'll have to resort to a UA-cam comment", knowing there was little to no chance of me actually writing one. I didn't really think about it properly until just now after watching this, but I can see that my hesitance stems from my personal experiences and observations of the type of behaviour you mention, the things women experience online so often. The sad thing is I really wanted to communicate the degree of gratitude I felt for your channel, yet the idea of commenting?! Absolutely not. Which speaks volumes about the toxic climate and the subtle ways it discourages even positive interactions.
But after watching this, I told myself to get over it so I could say a big thank you. I've encountered this issue firsthand for years in my work in the music industry. I wish more people would address it with the same straightforwardness and candour that you have. So, thank you! Not just for this, but especially for the tutorials that initially prompted my email to you :-)
There's another Dan Worrall audio engineer?? My sincere apologies to him.
Little extreme Dan, I really cant see any one 'denying' women a chance to make music and get signed. You could argue its a massive advantage in this political climate.
You mean, we might stop being arseholes to women *for no reason*?
@@DanWorrall Sure, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said...
@@aaronevens4857 Do you really think that this video is a “little extreme”? Genuinely?
So is it safe to say that I am basically the only trans non-binary xenogender subscriber on this channel? Identity shouldn't matter when it comes to music production, just skill (which I am trying to gain more of) and attitude.
This is a real issue and should be taken seriously. The misogyny isn't doing anyone any favours, and has to stop.
But the NANI plug-in also isn't part of the problem. Context matters. It could certainly be used in situations that would make people very uncomfortable, but it's just a funny (or un-funny) plug-in by itself. Depends on the setting and what kind of humour you have.
Sylvia Massy did a video with a band of both men and women where she explains the "Dick Mic technique", and talks about drummers' genitalia. And everyone has a good time, since they're on the same page. But in a different scenario it could lead to sexual harassment charges.
Some people have a hard time knowing when something is appropriate, and creeps will still be creeps - with or without this plug-in
You have said some things that should be controversial. It is highly unlikely that 50% of the population is being dissuaded from being in the music industry solely due to sexism. Women are men are different, and statistically they enjoy different things. This statement *should* be uncontroversial. It's been proven again and again in life choices they make, even in the most egalitarian countries in the world (See "Patriarchy Paradox"). Women, generally, gravitate to people while men, generally, gravitate to things.
Another thing that should be controversial is your invocation of the "gap of the isms" argument. "Men are the overwhelming majority of my subscribers, therefore sexism". Let's try that with incarceration: 94% of people incarcerated are men. Is it sexism? 75% of NBA players are black. Is it racism? We shouldn't infer an "ism" without evidence.
Next, the Musician's Union survey doesn't make any explicit mention of *women* enduring the harassment, and the survey isn't available to study the methodology. How do they define "sexual harassment"? Is it saying "Wow, you're pretty" or telling a sexual joke? Or is it grabbing an ass or being lecherous? These are important distinctions. These interest groups are motivated to arrive at provocative numbers (Mary P. Koss' famous survey on college sexual assault should be read by everybody concerned), just as sexual harassers have a vested interest in burying the issue. As a man, I have experienced plenty of what would be called "sexual harassment" by women. Given the right survey, I would've been a victim many times over. Did I ever feel victimized? No, not really. That's why knowing the methodology is important.
I have no doubt that, like construction, engineering, coding, plumbing, etc. that being a woman makes entry more challenging. Men have a way of communicating that is often different. We "bust balls". Men often joust and mock each other. It's a continuation of play fighting from when we're kids. It's important for a lot of us and keeps our claws sharp. Women interact differently. This should be uncontroversial. All you need to do is be around men and women to see that communication styles are different. We should understand that we have different communication styles and be more understanding of each other. But yes, there *is* sexism: for women in fields like music engineering and men in fields like childcare.
Lastly, I think it was offside to go in on those guys and call them "wankers" for liking a gimmicky and rude plug-in. You're a titan in this industry, and you've used your weight to humiliate some young men. If that's what you mean by "calling men out", I am not for it. It shows a shallow knowledge of human nature. That doesn't change minds; it instills fear and shame in people who would probably look up to you as a god if you gave them some fatherly advice.
I don't excuse true sexism or harassment. They are anathema to a healthy society. But I think a more calculated and gentle advising would've served this cause better.
Well... The first guy literally said he was going to jack off while producing! The second deserves to be called a weaker just for the sunglasses ;) And the last guy; well seems I did actually change his mind (and in truth, I do feel a bit sorry for him now).
@@DanWorrall not to belabour the point as you're a busy man, and I don't want to wear out your patience. But a young man who claims (not once, but twice) that that was "the biggest mistake" of his life has had his opinion changed, maybe not his mind. If you're a consequentialist, maybe that's good enough for you. But I think you'd achieve so much by taking kids like that under your wing.
Cheers
Yeah, that's good enough for me. If it becomes socially unacceptable to be a sexist arsehole, that's a win.
Thanks for this. I'm really encouraged by the comments, too. Men need to stand up to other men when we see this crap, it's the only way it's going to change. Just not being a terrible person is not enough.
yeah, as a trans woman trying to get into the industry, I couldn't agree more, shits crazy
Wasn’t expecting this in my notification box but I’m glad to see it. Keep being awesome Dan
Not what I came here to watch but glad I did. The line “I’m not blaming you, but I am talking to you” was golden.
Just before I nitpick I'd like to say I love this vid and hope to see more from other creators. It's really important that as many people in certain field as possible, especially those with influence, speak out against systemic prejudice, the only real way to deal with such large scale issues is to collectively shift everyone's mindset and to be more vigilant. I'd like to touch on the plugin though, specificaly the fact that the focus seems to be on its explicit nature rather than the vile context of it. I do appreciate the disclaimer by Dan about not bashing pornography, but I also think the point about VST plugins being no place for NSFW art only makes sense in a professional setting. I'm sure that pretty much everyone's main issue is the non-consentual nature of the animation, probably also the shit art to be honest but that's subjective I guess. But I'm sure most progressive minded people wouldn't have an issue with a more tasteful, less neckbeard-y nude plugin existing. Not saying they would buy and use it, especially in a professional setting, but the massive indie crowd using these tools definitely justifies some more artsy UI here and there and it's definitely not unethical for it to simply be lewd.
Again, just a nitpick from an aspiring SW and NSFW artist, I'm not claiming there was malice intended or anything, just hoping the whole discussion was a bit more mindful of that aspect. This just happens very often with pornographic/suggestive content, where it's thrown out like a trash bag encapsulating the actual problematic elements of certain media, when it's really not. It's sort of like dragging the entire genre of Punk through the mud because Nazi Punk is a thing, it's pretty frustrating and actually damaging to sex workers, see onlyfans silently narrowing its guidelines and banning NSFW creators for example, all in order to avoid controversy and the burden of hosting porn. I say lets iron out the kinks (pun may be intended) instead of drawing lines in the sand about what sort of application can ever be X-rated or not. Keep up the good work!
Brilliant video. Hope it stirs things up a bit cause it sometimes feels we are evolving backwards in more than one aspect when watching the news or simply looking around. A lot of supressed aggression out there
tl;dr : Cool stuff, I agree, so does my daughter, she plays bass (so far. she's only 13, it took me into my 30's to decide that I suck at all instruments)
You have always had my respect, but now you really have it. My daughter is just starting to get interested in all the instruments lying around the house, and she was particularly drawn to my old jazz bass (maybe cuz it comes with the loudest amp? who knows lol) and she probably spends half the night jamming on my MPC.
Except I'm not the biological father, and her umm absentee dad had caught wind of this, and found enough time to call this direction for the first time in like 3 years and left a threatening messages on my girlfriends (his x-wife) phone saying that he'd be damned if his girl is playing a boys instruments. I hadn't the slightest idea that bass guitars where .. girls? boys? does a boy want his instrument to be the opposite sex if he's hetero-normative? so he can like pretend to ... ? I dont understand the anthropomorphism of instruments I guess.
I wanted so bad to just send him some Talking Heads or maybe remind him of one of the like 10 badass bands Paz Lenchantin played bass in. He'd probably have a meltdown if he found out A Perfect Circle's bassist is a girl though, and I dont wanna be held responsible for someones mental deterioration.
There's another youtuber named Ben Jordan I think? who did a dive into this particular subject not too long ago, but I didn't particularly agree with his methodology or his conclusion, he sort of dismissed the notion that a patriarchal society like ours would lead to implicit and explicit biases in the music industry, and thought it had to do with homogeneity.. which .. is a stretch from my perspective.
I am rambling now as its what I am best at I suppose... and I apologize but I have to say, its always a relief to be reminded that humanity and its institutions need not be cruel. As Pete Seeger sang "Which side are you on?" (a song written by a woman funnily enough!) and I choose the side that's nice to everyone(well except fascists and bigots but you get my drift) because its a completely self evident thing to me.
I will say this as a closing paragraph to my meandering bullshittery here, at least for my area, we have a very high number of unabashedly bad ass women artists in the younger generations, which is important. I just think back to my cousin deciding to become a dr. because of the women role models she saw in star trek growin up in the 90's and I realize representation shapes us and our worldview when we are young and ever impressionable. and if these young women are a sign of things to come, I am given a sliver of hope for the future.
Your daughter sounds cool af. You may not be her biological dad, but sounds like you're her real dad nonetheless.
I was just reading through the VST3 SDK license agreement (for other reasons) when I noticed that in § 3 e) it says the following: "The Licensee warrants that it will not use Steinberg’s VST trademarks, “VST”, VST Plug-In or VST 3 Plug-In Technology on or in connection with products obscene, pornographic, excessively violent or otherwise in poor taste". I wonder if this plug-in could be breaching that license agreement? If so, I guess it could force them to change that despicable GUI, or otherwise remove the product in whole.
Okay, we might be in for some fun. Any legal experts here know if the plugin presented here is eligible for removal based on that particular part of the licence?
@@paisleepunk It definitely is. It's up to Yamaha/Steinberg to do something about it though. If they consider it obscene/in poor taste they don't need any reason other than their own opinion. They control the license and can do pretty much whatever they want with it. This is the reason so many devs who don't agree with Yamaha/Steinberg have simply decided to quit. This is a quote from Fabien of Tokyo Dawn Labs about the utter pointlessness of forcing devs to change from VST2.4 to VST3: "It still is obsolete from a technical point of view (VST3). But it is purely political business, with Steinberg slowly raising fences between VST2 and VST3, with some hosts even only supporting VST3.
There's more than that: Catalina notarization, AAX "certification", are all violent political moves costing us money for nothing (or worse, having to explain and excuse this irrational world to our end users).
Reality is, our own, very human customers start to struggle under these politics. The best we can do in this situation is to help them.
But don't get me wrong. This stuff is mostly useless and a major PITA for us. Steinberg, Apple, Protools, they are all shady wannabe dictators using whatever is in their power to rule the little world of audio. In doubt, simply don't mess with them and go Cockos Reaper! Problem solved. But we can't let our customers hang in the wind."
Wow. This is just outstanding. I haven’t even watched the White Sea Studios yet, but I’m going to now. Again, I’m very impressed. Thanks for sharing; gonna do so on a FB producer page I moderate.
@@swires1 Excuse me?
@@swires1 That's blatantly false from what I can tell
@@swires1 Come on, at least put some more effort into it. If you want your trolling to be effective, you should at least set up a profile picture. Makes you seem more like a real person.
Thank you, Dan. The fact that this video got already 60 thumbs down says we have a long long way to go.
Thing is, dislikes and enraged comments help to boost the video. Those muppets don't even understand how UA-cam works...
@@DanWorrall Yep
Some people are born to "thumbs down" by default, no matter what you throw at them...
That's right. Raging misogyny is the only explanation for why someone might down-thumb this video.
@@roadtonever True. I could imagine some people not wanting this type of content but the tutorials and comparisons Dan does. It's alright to dislike a video, but it's not alright to put a "sexist" stamp on them. That's pretty much the same thing this video is against.
I am perfectly fine with my unfair advantage.
Thank you so much for tackling this issue. It's something we need to be acutely aware of as men in a male-dominated industry.
One thing to point out, though, is that I'm pretty sure the UA-cam gender stats are also skewed. Google is making a guess as to the gender of people based on their interests, as all these algorithms do, and of course those algorithms are biased such that they will assume someone interested in technology is male. So you end up with a feedback loop, where the few women interested in these fields get mis-categorized as men in the stats, and disappear. My own channel says 100% male, but I know some of my regulars are women. I am quite certain that more than 0.1% of the recent viewing time for my channel was by women based on that alone, so having it literally show as 100% men doesn't make much sense.
Nope, Google knows exactly who you are, what you do and even what you say 24/7 every single day of your life!
@@kurglekreutzer6344 Except your actual age, fairly often (at least on this account)
I think the first thing you said is true, males ARE 1000x more interested in plugins because males are much more likely to be sound engineers and buy mixing plugins, lol. Is that so shocking? However, when it comes to *actual music sales* (albums, CDs, vinyl, streaming revenue) women are making 75% of those purchases. So if the music industry is so sexist, it's strange that women support it WAY MORE than men.
...also, you could just NOT BUY the plugin. Money talks, and the plugin manufacturers are trying to appeal to their core demographic just like Beyonce appeals to young women with her music. Plus there's TONS of female sound engineers, you could have mentioned them by name in this video to help them attract more clients. The only one "excluding" women from this profession is *you* - literally, in this video! You did a great job trying to make your point, and I absoutely *love* to see musicians & engineers getting "political" and discussing important societal issues.
If you think this is bad, Dan, wait until you notice the lack of oversampling.
Big ups for talking about this. I know a lot of woman within this industry that I know would truly appreciate hearing this, they are just as nerdy as us guys when it comes to music production, sound engineering etc. Massive respect to you Dan!
I am a father to a little girl and I very much hope that my love of music and production rubs off on her. But I also worry that the culture will not change soon enough and that it will discourage her from pursuing something she may otherwise really enjoy and excel at.
This is excellent! I really hope this subject gets more focus in the future
Physics is also nearly all male but I can assure you women are not treated badly, they've decided they don't like it. That could be in some way a societal problem. In that sense I agree with you Dan, we should encourage our society to be a place anyone can succeed and are not persuaded they can't do something for a false reason. However I don't think men and women are exactly the same and I don't think we should assume a 50-50 split in every field. I know you didn't say that, but it's the thing that lurks around the corner.
Thank you so much Dan, so straightforward. It’s true, once the culture changes the people will naturally follow. As someone on a music & tech degree, I am one of 3 women in a class of 30. I can’t help but think that those stats you showed contribute to this fact. I hope in a few years this will be the case. I’m determined to stick to it, just have to be weary of accepting opportunities or sniffing out ulterior motives. And of course being swamped by a sea of blokes explaining things to me every time I want to learn something on youtube. I do have some female production heroines and Im so thankful for them and their determination. Thank you for opening the conversation at the cost of your own channel.
My lecturer also often stumbles on his words saying ‘back in the day it’d be some man splicing tape’ or ‘when he’s at the desk’ and it’s not his fault. Of course his brain defaults to that because it’s proven in statistics and my own experience.
This video appears to have gained me more subscriptions than its lost, so no sign of any harm to the channel so far :)
@@DanWorrall Fab! I'm one of them :)
Welcome!
Well said, fully support. From my work experience many men are unaware of their advantage and have little empathy for what women experience. As a man who was supportive until I had an aha moment it was only then I started to realise what challenges face women in a male dominated culture.
"Are men one thousand times more interested in music technology than women, or is there a toxic culture of sexism that tells women that won't be taken seriously..."
The answer is yes. 2 things can be true at the same time.
Let's get rid of the sexist rape culture then, because that's morally indefensible. If it then turns out that men actually are 1000 times more into music tech, so be it.
@@DanWorrall since you live in Britain you must know who actually is poisoned by rape culture and they are very under-represented in the music industry
I personally enjoyed the release of that plugin because i see it as a satirical attempt to highlight the scam practices that slipped into the audio industry the last years with products being less and less about technology and workflow while being more and more about just trying to mindlessly reinforce some images. the developers do so by actually going too far with it, going into a territory of absolute absurdity, that has not been reached before and that alone already makes it a way better plugin than the ones it makes fun of, like that drip plugin and stuff. yes, it would be cool if there were no sexist plugins out there, but the fact that we allowed scammers to be successful in the vst development industry unfortunately made it possible that such a joke can be made at all. if there were no "drip" plugins and stuff like that, no one would have bothered to make a "joke" like that. notice that i'm not even talking about women or feminism here btw. it's because i think you're right with the problems in the audio industry that you pointed out in your video. but i simultanously think that this plugin is just about something different.
The plugin is just a meme and it's working
@@ayeapprove yes. but it's a tricky one indeed. i mean on the one hand i can totally understand that we shouldn't just accept stuff like that while women are harassed in this industry so much. but on the other hand this is like the only plugin that ever made a serious attempt at offending vst scammers and i think that's rad. i'm not sure what i should think about it now. it seems like it would be wrong to provide a definite answer.
The message I get is that plugins are released with the external appearance of something it isn't, just to get heads turning. Look at those glowing pictures of valves, sounds great! I like airwindows plugins so can't be fooled that way.
Oh wow. I didn't realise this was a thing until I saw Thoma's apology. I'm so happy to see that there are guys like you and White Sea that can recognise and have empathy eventhough it doesn't effect you. You are so appreciated 💜
Also subbed 💜
Well said Dan, 100% with you on everything you said.
I actually went ahead and bought this. It's a pretty killer distortion plugin (I just wish it were multiband). A lot of kids were using it for EDM but I had some excellent results with using it on snare and room mics for metal mixes. It's like a more dynamic version of Soundtoy's Decapitator. I'm impressed, especially given the goofiness of the GUI.
I also think people are taking the interface a bit too seriously though. Hentai's not really a derogatory thing. It's more kitsch-y than mean-spirited. My fiancé actually thought it was pretty hysterical, but she's a big anime nerd.
As part of that 0.1%, I appreciate you saying this Dan. Your tutorials are some of the best around and I've been watching and learning from them for years. Thank you :)
Well you decided to respond to her benign statement of thanks and support with your negativity so look in the mirror douchenozzle.
This is a great video! Thank you for speaking up on this topic. I'm female-presenting and definitely get a bit intimidated by the large majority of men in music production spaces, and I'm afraid that people will categorize me as less deserving or capable just cuz of that. Misogyny is insidious and deeply ingrained into our culture, and I believe it's both men and women's responsibility to recognize it and combat it when we can.
Watch Benn Jordan's video on this topic next. It shocked me and made me aware. I never noticed the type of comments under a video by a female producer/content creator, but it's disgusting and change is needed.
Like Dan said, this behaviour needs to be called out and not standardized. Yes, even those little 'fun' jokes.
Thanks for this comment. I went and looked at Jordan’s video and sat through all 37 minutes of it. I thought it was really good.
I've seen that too, a lot of Ableton's instructional tips and tricks videos hosted by female producers have really negative comment sections.
Thank you for making this video. I've seen how much more men than women are in the mixing world and videos like this take us a step closer to gender equality in this industry. If my sister or my daughters (if i ever have) are interested in mixing (or anything really) i'd be super happy to see how there's equality.
Dan, I love your videos. I don't understand or should I say am dismayed you have fallen for this line of thinking when you are clearly so good at critical thinking. You literally showed two channel stats, two technical and detailed channels (important later), which show men overwhelming more interested in what they say and show than women. UA-cam does not prevent women watching any video they like. So the answer should be self evident. If you need the explanation, men and women on average are the same, where they differ is at the extremes.
To watch one of your videos or white sea's, you have to be extremely interested in how THINGS work, which study after study shows is a bias of males, whereas how PEOPLE work is a bias of females. I can explain this further but it should be enough. You can even give baby chimps a fire truck and a dolly, you wont be surprised which sex picks up which toy to play with. There should be no surprise at the exteme end of a subject, if it is technical, you will find mostly men there just as if it is about people, you'll find mostly women.
Trying to explain this fact of nature with sexually aggressive men preventing women from even being interested is absurd and bonkers political. To bring this full circle to what started it. If this Nani plugin wants to have breasts on it, let them. Make it over 18 if you want. Women don't have to buy it, look at it or use it. Don't tell the men it's obviously targeted at they should have it taken away or be called disgusting. Even worse equated to sexual predators if they like it. Are we to pretend men don't look at or like breasts? Are they allowed to do this in private? etc. I don't see anyone telling women
If you really wanted to even things out for this plugin, they could simply add another skin for women and make even more money but it should be up to them. No not of man with his bits out, it would be of a man in a sharp suit in front of his super yacht. If you understand why this analgous, you understand why men and women have these biases in the first place.
And with that understanding, get over why aren't women more interested and just let who is interested be interested. Which is the true equality and it's already here. Looking forward to more of your fantastic work Dan. P.S. that 0.1% might be my neice ;)
you sound like a misogynist.
i don't think that's a stretch.
Nani Plugin, THE COOLEST PLUGIN EVER MADE!! Even to have a fun and crazy live performances with synced yo beat animations!
I don't mind you talking about controversial stuff instead of audio, this is really cool, and highly important and needed. Thanks for speaking up mate.
Woman in the music industry is eighteen times as qualified and twenty times as underpaid. Literally have had men erase my name and put theirs in its place, and have had my bosses discipline me for being "dramatic". That is why many of us conceal identity or go as "ghostwriters." Racism combined with sexism is considerably prolific leaving the most talented and hard working people, black women specifically, in a neverending wheel of injustice.
eighteen times qualified??????
twenty times underpaid?????
Just curious how one could measure qualifications and come up with a number?
Let's encourage men to speak out too. For example, it's unfair that Brendan Frasier was blacklisted for a while for calling out a popular woman in Hollywood for being very sexually inappropriate in her conduct towards him.
Thanks, kudos and hats off for this. A key sentence: "None of this should be in least bit controversial." And no, that's shutting up so called "controversial thinking". It is common sense, respect and decency all males naturally expect to get as a birth right.
Right on! Though they are rare, I really enjoy working with women in sound. Let's encourage more inclusion, less bs.
I enjoy your content but a stat "that's bothered you ever since you first noticed it" and "how should I interpret it?" are examples of a Mind Projection Fallacy. You're assuming that this analytic holds some deeper meaning, when in fact it's an analytic that implies facts about your audience. Yes it IS true that men are more interested in the engineering aspect of music - this however, doesn't imply that women are not interested in it. Rather you're ascribing analytics and statistics with an interpretation that's unwarranted. The "good guys" as you put it, already know that this type of attitude is not acceptable. I just think this type of content is rather unnecessary; like you said, just suck it up. Don't take this criticism too harshly, I'm a fan of your content. Keep up the good work.
The fact that Dan's audience is 1000x more male than female is strong enough of a data point that surely it warrants interpretations like this video. I don't understand what you mean by saying that you can't draw deeper meaning from analytics. Drawing conclusions from numerical data is kinda at the heart of the empirical method, no? No one is claiming that women aren't interested in music tech - in fact, this video is kinda arguing the opposite, so again I don't get your point.
@@granite_planet I didn't state that you "can't" draw meaning from analytics, I'm implying that this content assumes that these numbers indicate something that's irrelevant. And by the way, you don't draw conclusions from data, you look to see if it supports your original hypothesis. Since these analytics are just raw data with no question posed, it's misguided to assume anything about it, bordering on virtue signaling. I appreciate the effort you took in responding to me, but since I don't like this particular content I chose to comment and voice my views and opinion. In case you don't "get" my point about this comment, let me state it clearly; this type of content is rather unnecessary.
I'm commenting so the algorithm will suggest this to more people. Fight culture with counter-culture.
Thanks for talking about this!
The fact that statements like 'don't rape people' and 'sexism is neither funny not acceptible in any form' are consdiered political stances when talking about a workplace dissapoints me beyond words and says more than enough about how fundamentally broken studio culture is. This video is the kind of blunt and uncomfortable conversations that the whole industry needs to be having and it's at nice to see that happening here, even if on a small scale.
You've got a good community over here. Mostly appreciation and gratitude for your video. Of course of few critics (constructive and non-constructive), disbelievers, trolls. But overall, great consensus on the issues, and that's important right now. Thank You.
Very well said! Thank you, Dan!
Massive respect, thank you for this.
This is quite a heavy topic that needs to be talked about.
Personally, when it comes to "male" and "female" as societal labels, I often dislike having to declare one for myself publicly due to all the social expectations that come with them. However, I do find myself guilty of not straying too far from the roles determined by the body I was biologically given at birth, due to fear of losing the priveleges that come with them.
Update: came out as trans since leaving this comment. You can count me as part of that 0.1% of your viewership.
Thank you Dan. Just wanted to say that really - this message needs to be spread far and wide in our industry
Right here with you you, Dan. Standard you walk past is the standard you accept, so let's none of us walk past it anymore.
This video is embarrassing. Does it make you feel morally superior for calling out those truly innocent jokes made by the other youtubers, are you trying to make them apologize? Do you think sexism is the only reason fewer women seek into the technical filed of music production? One of the largest differences between the sexes are the difference in interests in 'people' vs 'things', where men are more drawn to things, and women to people, and this shows most clearly in countries where men are the most free to chose, without social pressure, in what area to work. I would believe that women many times, and rightfully so, have it EASIER to get into those fields because it is nice to have some women around, most can agree.
Yawn
@@DanWorrall I do no endorse pornographic imagery nor am I a fan of bad jokes, and I really don't want it to look like I don't care about safety or comfort of women in work situations or otherwise. I am married and care deeply about the women in my life, but I honestly feel this video was poorly thought through, and need to be honest about that rather than join the choir of "bravo, brave, applause". UA-cam is male dominated in general, and an audio-technical channel is bound to have mostly male viewers no matter what. Otherwise we would have to conclude that it is the systematic sexism in your own content that scares the women away, and no one would argue that. If your cannel was about singing techniques or such topics the stats would be different. I do enjoy your content and i don't want to come across as nasty in any way, but these topics are rarely approached in an intelligent manner, and calling out these few youtubers I felt was the wrong was, and the wrong place.
You're just scared at the prospect of losing your male privilage. I guess you wouldn't be able to compete without it? Yes I do feel morally superior to you.
@@DanWorrall Dan, stop. Stop wheeling out the same old tired leftists clichés.
Given that "right wing" is just a mealy mouthed euphemism for evil, I'm not going to be offended to be called "leftist".
You just earned a subscription. I will not tolerate sexism in any form and I promise I will discuss about how to stop it and how I and others should intervene when it happens. This is an important topic to all of us, not just to females and minorities but for us men as well. Sexual harassment can't be stopped by the ones who are the victims, it's a group effort and currently it's us cis males who need to take action. The topic has been brought up by the victims, now it's our turn to help make a change.
Nobody stops women to watch anything on UA-cam
But men do discourage women in a variety of ways from joining the audio industry. Happens on the recently renamed Gearspace (formerly Gearslutz), it happens from numerous engineers in the field, and it happens from the casual to completely over-the-top sexism and harassment that so many male artists put women through.
your scope on this video is too narrow. Dan is only talking about his viewer stats as a reflection of a deeper, broader problem with how women get treated and put down from within the audio comunity. He's not saying "sexism is causing women to stop watching my videos", he's saying "here's yet another example about how women are disencouraged from engaging into certain things because of how they're usually treated in a sexist society"
Who is stopping you from drag queening?
Dan Worrall
3 weeks ago
I don't care how tiny a minority female audio engineers are, or the reasons for the disparity
Thank you Dan for saying all this out loud (even as you said this is basic stuff and shouldn't be considered controversial)
Thank you for doing this
I'm a 27 year old male producer working in both the EDM and HipHop scene. I have been harassed at work from promoters as well as fans. I can only imagine how bad some women have it when just trying to make art. Thank you for using your platform to speak on this. The record label and managment/agrncy I signed with all push forward thinking boundaries and progressive thoughts with inclusion and protection for everyone. we love to strive for a safe environment for everyone. I really respect you for this video!
It's only harassment when you start calling it such.
That plug-in has not to do with sexism, it depends on how you see it, ive seen many females enjoy "hentai", which is exactly whats displayed on the plug-in's interface.
edit : i like your content, new sub
Idk why they're taking it so seriously. Like they've never seen a page of erotica in their lives. It's a plugin meant for bedroom producers; get over it :P
Its proper f**ked up. As a proud musician father of a musician daughter its shit like this that boils my piss. Nice one Dan.
There's an argument to be made here that the demographics of your viewers actually suggests that there isn't as much of a glass ceiling as you claim to exist: I can't imagine a safer way for a woman to indulge her interest in audio than by watching UA-cam videos on the subject. It would seem to me that if there was this huge group of women who were interested in audio but were being denied opportunities to actually work in the field, the viewer demographics of content creators such as yourself would reflect that, even when the demographic composition of those who actually work in the industry doesn't, since simply watching a video doesn't require the acceptance of any supposed "old boys club", and is completely anonymous, thus avoiding any potential ridicule for being interested in "man's work". Is it possible that there just isn't very much genuine interest in audio among women?
Sorry, I think this is just another case of trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Sexual harassment and assault in any workplace is a genuine issue that needs to be addressed by everybody, in every occupation, but I don't see any evidence of this being a particular issue in the audio world, beyond the existence of an "old boys club" that fiercely protects itself from ANYONE (regardless of sex, race, gender, orientation) trying to get a foot in the door of an industry that has very few opportunities. It's shitty but I don't think it's targeted at any particular demographic, and I fear that trying to shoehorn an artificial issue into a situation allows people to ignore whatever real issues do exist.
Sexims prevails throughout our societies, and all it's aspects. In that sense, why focus on audio engineering specifically? On the other hand, every context has its specific features that make it more or less amenable for sexism, and as there is still much to do be done, addressing issues wherever they occur, is necessary.
While I see your argument on the numbers, that's a superficial at-face-value interpretation, and failing to inspect where this difference comes about. Is this difference really because women are less interested, or because there is less exposure to women, there are the assumptions such technical things are not in women's interest, or that when a women starts, there's always this disbelief, lack of trust.
You describe so very well why sexism is still greatly misunderstood and normalized by those unaffected. And on top of that, even if your argument on natural interest would be true, it has no basis in explaining the sexualization of women, the rape threats, the denouncing of women. But why does that happen? Surely we can explain that it just happens everywhere. But that's not an explanation, is it? It does not explain the common threats against women. What could explain that? A fear of having more competition? A fear of having competition from the other gender? And if it were true, that women are just less interested, why would those men be threatened? They would just pose a small group, nothing a trained audio engineer should fear about.
I focused on audio engineering because that's my field, and if I have any influence, its with other audio engineers. And because the gender disparity in my industry seems to me too great to be explained by biological differences alone.
That said, I don't really care about the gender disparity. If we end the sexist rape culture, and the gender disparity remains, so be it. At least we've improved matters for the small minority of women that *do* want a career behind a console.
Marie - Sorry, I'm not trying to just shoo away the issues of harassment, abuse, and discrediting of women in the wider working world. I just think it's a discussion that's being had all over the world, all over the Internet, every minute of every hour of every day, and I have nothing remarkable to add to that discussion, and so I'm not going to waste my time trying to mansplain my own views on the wider issue to you or to anybody else.
However, the discussion that this video has inspired has to do with a very broad issue that supposedly exists in an EXTREMELY narrow segment of the working world, and while I would never try and make the argument that the audio world is somehow this island of equality in a sea of prejudice, Dan did suggest in the video that the gender disparity that exists in the audio world is the result of a PARTICULARLY toxic work environment, and I'm only suggesting that maybe there are other reasons, that maybe the reason women aren't interested in audio is because they're not interested in it. I work in construction - certainly not a paradise of equal opportunity and treatment either. Not for women, and not for people of color. But here in Toronto, a very diverse city, there are thousands of MEN of color working in the construction industry, but not a lot of women, regardless of background. And so, I'm not a sociologist, but it seems to me that if men of color are willing to deal with a toxic work environment to do that kind of work, and women aren't, then maybe it's just that women aren't really interested in doing that kind of work. So my suggestion is really that maybe the two situations can exist simultaneously in the audio world as well - maybe it's no less toxic towards women than any other occupation, and that certainly is a problem, but maybe that's actually not the reason why there aren't a lot of women in audio - maybe they just aren't interested in audio.
Dan - fair enough, but like I said in my original response, my fear is that we're ignoring the real barriers that keep the women who ARE interested in audio out of the industry - there just isn't a wealth of opportunities out there for ANYBODY, and the people who have found themselves in the good graces of those who dole out those opportunities are very protective about their position. And I don't know what the solution to that is, or even if there is a solution to that, I just know that the closed nature of the audio world keeps almost everybody out, and that any efforts to open things up a bit would provide more opportunities to female audio engineers than pretending that the world of audio is a "pirate ship" (my girlfriend is a touring musician who uses the term "pirate ship" to refer to male-only touring bands, in contrast to touring bands that have even a single female member - evidently the presence of a female band member results in better behavior towards female fans than the "pirate ships", which to me is further evidence that men in audio might actually behave better in the presence of female audio engineers, provided that a significant number of women actually want to work in audio).
@@TheZappazapper I guess the point is that the most likely hypothesis for the 1000:1 ratio is a culture that makes women uncomfortable, and not a genetic difference between genders in interest towards music tech. There's a lot of data supporting the former, and little supporting the latter theory. If you have evidence for your supposition - awesome! But until then I'll have to side with the prevailing view. Whataboutism about the closedness of professional music industry towards everybody doesn't really work as a counterargument to the point of this video either. There's a reason it's called the old _boys'_ club. And I find it weird that you take issue with Dan trying to spread the message among his own professional field. What would you have him do instead, the same video but with the added disclaimer "btw, elsewhere too"?
So what you're saying is, unless I can prove rape culture is to blame for the gender disparity, you'll carry on demeaning and sexually abusing women.
Thank you for speaking on this Dan.
stupidity.
come on. it's just a meme plugin...
lol. "it's just a meme" has been a very easy way to excuse a lot of poor behaviour on the internet over the years. not a good argument.
Great video Dan, thanks for having the courage to make it!
Well said!
Thank you for posting this
Thank you Dan. Well said.
I watch most of your videos and I value your knowledge, experience and abilities to explain all the music tech stuff but I have to say this is the most important video you've made. Thank you very much for this.
Dan check the exellent video ben jordan did about this topic.
Agree 100%. Thank you Dan.
Thank you, Dan.
Bravo. Didn't think I could have any more respect for your work, but here we are. Thanks for doing this.
You want to talk about 'unfair advantages', how about the litany of videos of young girls playing generic indie rock with a Squier Bullet and a copy of Garageband that get millions of hits?
That's a stupid thing to say, right? For the record, I do not actually believe that is an 'unfair advantage', just using it as an example for arguments sake. I can absolutely understand why people are drawn to that and yes, unfortunately it has a lot to do with the artist's gender. The girls doing it absolutely know that, and seem fine exploiting it and more the power to them. I'm not excusing the VST you talked about, or the attitudes some people have towards women in audio production but I think girls are much more inclined (and indeed advantaged) to follow, for example, the route of singer/songwriting within the world of audio than production, for many more reasons other than 'men are sexist'. Doesn't mean that isn't a factor, but audio production is an incredibly technical and vast thing to want to jump into and appeals to men much more for that reason. Not because 'girls are too stupid!' but because they're much less inclined to persue careers or hobbies doing technical things, that's why it's rare to see a female mechanic or female electrician. You might not like it, but you can cherry pick unfair advantages from both genders as well as factors like race in any number of fields. You can do the very same with unfair DISadvantages too. Yes it sucks and that VST and the people reviewing it are tastless trash and should be pointed out, but I very much feel that you feeling bad about having a 99.9% male audience is a you-problem and not nearly as reflective of sexism and bullying as you might think.
(Just figured I'd say off the cuff from my personal experience - the girls on my music performance and production course at college were given many times more support, attention and encouragement than the vast majority of guys were. I'm not mad about that, perhaps they very much deserved it...or maybe it was 'unfair' favouritism (or dare I say, sexism) on the part of the lecturers....just thought I'd put it out there)
Good to see you (and white sea for that matter) speaking up about this. Some might prefer to keep politics out of business. However, in my opinion, not speaking up when your peers need your help is an equally political action as speaking up itself.
Thank you Dan.
i'm rlly glad that u're addressing this, these r some major issues we have in western culture in general that most ppl fail to address
also, no your points are actually very important and not controversial in the slightest (or at least i *hope* they aren't)
@@tophan5146 i can only speak for western culture lol i don't rlly know if the same thing goes on in other cultures since i don't come from them
@@translila women have it infinitely better in 1st world western countries than literally anywhere else. The sexism they face is just the standard amount of assholes that unfortunately exist everywhere.
I noticed that too, in the US there are a dozen women mix engineers, a few even candidates for a grammy, we had that too in the piracy times from AM/FM radio's, all men and very few women. Nowadays it's the other way around. I like it, I had to train a few of them and it was always nice, no testosterone there. But if we look to the recording studio's here in Belgium, women are there for administration. No mix engineers. I would like to have a woman as assistant and to learn all my experiences to her. But I have no clue if there are, who want to do this. Maybe they are unsure, because of the technical aspect?