I think the problem with a lot of heroes that "can't be nerfed" isn't that their kits are inherently broken, it's that they are the only characters in the game that do their job. Lucio used to fit into this category. People complained endlessly about how prevalent Lucio was in the game, how he was so broken because of his pick rate. As soon as he wasn't the only character with a speed boost his playtime dropped and he was no longer 'perma meta'. If they release another character that can bodyguard as well as Brig, her playtime will plummet. The only character It think this doesn't apply to is Sojourn but that's less to do with her being the only character to do one job and more to do with her being able to do literally everything a dps needs to do.
it always baffles me how blizzard adds some of the worst game design concepts in the support role. it started with mercy and moira and it's still happening today
@@its_lucky2526 You're welcome to elaborate. "...Blizzard adds some of the worst game design concepts in the support role... it's still happening today." Go. All you. I'm listening. What recently added support hero(es) were being referred to?
Pretty sure the ONE time in the game's history where Tracer was bad, borderline unplayable, was release Brig. That shield + m1 + flail combo from hell straight up deleted her from the game without fail EVERY time.
Tracer is the staple of balance and endless skill ceiling. Top players use her because they can utilize her kit. Put a tracer in a gold players hands, they will throw.
@@garji2477 That's skill floor not skill ceiling. Floor is the level at which you must play to provide value and not be a throw. Ceiling is the maximum possible value you can get out of the character. Silvers and golds are going to be much closer to the floor typically. Most of her value is in timing and position due to her high mobility. Two things that low level players tend to lack.
Slightly wrong about Brig for OW2, when she first released people thought she was actually balanced/slightly below average because her stun was removed completely and her ult was worse (in most situations) than it is now with the stun and she wasn't really played that much. Of course, Blizzard being the idiots that they are, kept buffing her ult, which of course has a stun.
it will always boggle my mind how devs design hero's who's requirement to be played is don't be dog shit and then balance those same hero's around dog shit players, just plain stupid.
I dont agree with Soj being in this vid, she only recently became meta again and was really bad for a good number of seasons after they took away the 1 shot
one hero they can’t nerf is actually orisa SINCE AFTER WE ALL REJOICE WHEN SHE GOT GUTTED(absolutely deserved bdw she deserves to die YOU SHOULD NOT MAKE HERE IDENTITY I DONT DIE) SHE RANDOMLY GETS GIGABUFED OVER THE COURSE OF 3 PATCHES blizzard tell me why do you keep buffing orisa,mauga and widow instead of reworking frustrating aspects like widow’s one shot could be deleted and here headshots now revel enemies through walls(bad idea but you get the point) to fix problematic aspects PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP GIGA BUFFING BAPTISE HE IS ALREADY BROKEN BEYOND REPAIR PLEASE STOP
hey Kajor, any thoughts on why all of Overwatch's most prolific heroes (on ladder) have always been brawl type heroes, and the actual FPS heroes have had some of the lowest winrates historically? it's weird right, when you consider that like 80% of the game is played at that poke/FPS range and the heroes that excel in that situation are the most hated, and yet some of the worst performing? would you agree that suggests Overwatch is fundamentally imbalanced at the level of it's game mode design? with the activity during the 'brawl phase' (fighting on/for the objective) being disproportionately more meaningful/impactful? which creates a bias towards heroes with high sustain and consistency, such as Brig?
brig isnt played in brawl though. Brig is a poke character put along side the broken ass supports like ana. I'm not really sure who juno is played with, i didnt really play the game around the juno brig meta. but regardless brawl supports like lucio and moira do not need brig, so theres not much point playing her into brawl. Shes meant to play alongside poke to protect the other healer from dive (which counters poke) Without being nearly as knowledge as Kajor, if what you are saying is even true its probably because the poke characters are boring as hell. Personally, I want to play overwatch, not valorant. Although characters like sojourn, who as talked about is broken, is an fps character you clearly desire. Idk, maybe her statistics are low but that means nothing. People find winston meta fun and the most balance, its kind of the default state overwatch resides to when the game is most balanced. Bear in mind that winston is dive, not brawl though. Also youre forgetting all archetypes have some kind of advantage to payload/point. You say oh brawl is best because they fight on point. Well, what about the defending team? If the entire team is playing brawl and youre just sat on payload, the defending team has free reign. Brawl will struggle to contest space on maps with lots of high ground if some of the team can't get up easily, while an archetype like poke will destroy them from the high ground. Theres no reason why a poke team couldn't just kill the other team and take point once theyre all dead. Same with dive. Everybody has to take space away from payload. Brawl can have an advantage, say a character like rein who can just swing on the payload can be very oppressive on overtime when you are forced to play into his range. But like, this is mostly an advantage of rein and as i said the other archetypes can play payload/point differently.
@@SecureBirch410 I think you misunderstood me. I'm talking about historical winrate trends and how they show 'brawl' type heroes with sustain and consistent damage damage in their kits have always had higher winrates than their more offensively built counterparts and how that implies a bias in the core design of the game. given that like 80% of Overwatch plays like an FPS and the 'brawl' for/around the objective is a fraction of match time, you would expect the opposite to be true. but clearly the 'FPS/poke/neutral' phase of the game that offensive heroes dominate is massively out of whack in regards to it's impact on the game. it's worth very little. we play and appreciate this game as an FPS, that's why Widowmaker, Hog, Cass are some of the most popular and frustrating heroes to play against... and yet they've always been some of the worst performing heroes in the game. shouldn't that change? if the 'phase' of the game they excelled in actually mattered more, they would win more and we could nerf them and bring them into line. the game itself is misaligned.
@kennethnoisewater4423 can you give examples of heroes that you mean? I mean you talk about sustain, but hog is the sustain tank isn't he? Maybe I misunderstand what is meant by sustain. But hog is bad because he's unhealthy for the game. If hog is good, the only way to counter him is ana and it's not fair. Not fair on the tank who doesn't have it in their control to choose their supports, and not fair for supports to be forced to play that dumb character. Cas... I thought cas is good? His main problem is his stun though. That's why he is unfun when he's meta. They can't balance it without removing it entirely. And widowmaker - 1 shots have no place in this game.
@ yeah Cass is a good FPS hero, the point I'm making is that the game doesn't favour the FPS oriented heroes. and that means Widow (for example) is potentially overtuned. she's obviously really good in those 'fps' scenarios that make up most of a match, but also one of the historically worst performing heroes in the game. that means there's less room to nerf or truly balance her, because the game itself is imbalanced and biased against her design. you see what I'm saying?
@ I mean ashe, sojourn, sigma, bap these characters are perfectly fine. Ana is busted as hell. These characters are poke. Poke is fine... It just so happens you picked a few of those characters that are annoying. Poke wouldnt be an archetype if it didnt have a place in the game. its just that these characters tend to have high damage/cc that is annoying, they usually have these to help them deal with dive. I think youre making up this idea that theyre bad. Widowmaker may never be balanced but its not like cassidy can't be balanced. Its just that his cc will never not be annoying.
I'm starting to think that OW has never been good. It was new, appealing characters and visuals, but there was never any balance.If you think about some ridiculous things it had throughout the years, it all connects. Buff hitscan fall off you mongrels
the reason u cant nerf widow is shown very well by marvel rivals widow without a 1 shot she is BY FAR the worst character in the game u either dont nerf her or remove her from the game no inbetween
Tracer is in the worst state she's been in OW2 thanks to direct nerfs to her dmg, spread, falloff and buffs to other heroes. How do you keep underplaying this? Just because people with thousands of hours on her play her at the highest levels, doesn't mean much for the rest of us. Do you sincerely think the game should be squarely balanced around professional play? Or champion ranks?
I agree but the point is that tracer is almost never bad, yes very bad for tracer standards at the moment but still playable and good in the right hands and situations. I dont even think she should be buffed, season 9 changes should just be reverted lol
Her general win rate even on lower ranks is still above average tho. If the developers decide to buff her, alot of heroes should be buffed also, and that doesnt work because all you are doing then is just raising the general power level. I do agree with you that this guy only talks about how balanced heroes are based on extreme high levels and pro play. It is pretty annoying and for 99% of the people its completely irrelevant.
I think the problem with a lot of heroes that "can't be nerfed" isn't that their kits are inherently broken, it's that they are the only characters in the game that do their job. Lucio used to fit into this category. People complained endlessly about how prevalent Lucio was in the game, how he was so broken because of his pick rate. As soon as he wasn't the only character with a speed boost his playtime dropped and he was no longer 'perma meta'. If they release another character that can bodyguard as well as Brig, her playtime will plummet.
The only character It think this doesn't apply to is Sojourn but that's less to do with her being the only character to do one job and more to do with her being able to do literally everything a dps needs to do.
it always baffles me how blizzard adds some of the worst game design concepts in the support role. it started with mercy and moira and it's still happening today
Juno isn't designed badly. Quite the opposite. She's just a little overtuned.
@@overratedfool6900thankfully, no one said she is
@@its_lucky2526 You're welcome to elaborate.
"...Blizzard adds some of the worst game design concepts in the support role... it's still happening today."
Go. All you. I'm listening. What recently added support hero(es) were being referred to?
I think it's just Mercy, Moira, and Kiri
Juno is fine yall just suck and can’t hit shots she’s so easy to punish
Pretty sure the ONE time in the game's history where Tracer was bad, borderline unplayable, was release Brig. That shield + m1 + flail combo from hell straight up deleted her from the game without fail EVERY time.
Tracer is the staple of balance and endless skill ceiling. Top players use her because they can utilize her kit. Put a tracer in a gold players hands, they will throw.
Nah Tracer is overstated in her skill ceiling. There are golds and even silvers who can play her effectively mechanically.
Biggest cap of the week @@garji2477
thats true of every hero. You can literally just play the same hero. people dont cry because someone is broken they're just bad.
@@garji2477 That's skill floor not skill ceiling. Floor is the level at which you must play to provide value and not be a throw. Ceiling is the maximum possible value you can get out of the character. Silvers and golds are going to be much closer to the floor typically. Most of her value is in timing and position due to her high mobility. Two things that low level players tend to lack.
can confirm am gold tracer and throwing
Slightly wrong about Brig for OW2, when she first released people thought she was actually balanced/slightly below average because her stun was removed completely and her ult was worse (in most situations) than it is now with the stun and she wasn't really played that much. Of course, Blizzard being the idiots that they are, kept buffing her ult, which of course has a stun.
The biggest change for tracer recently was the armor changes, you had to change playstyle a lot after that
it will always boggle my mind how devs design hero's who's requirement to be played is don't be dog shit and then balance those same hero's around dog shit players, just plain stupid.
I dont agree with Soj being in this vid, she only recently became meta again and was really bad for a good number of seasons after they took away the 1 shot
i think next hero should be kind of a male brig (meaning a melee healer), that should ease that "dive protector" burden on brig
Lucio already does that, just not as well as brig. He isn’t really melee, but boy is it had to hit shots consistently past like 5 meters on the guy
Anti dive supports aren't good for the game
2:57 A China Once Again pun would've been good there
one hero they can’t nerf is actually orisa SINCE AFTER WE ALL REJOICE WHEN SHE GOT GUTTED(absolutely deserved bdw she deserves to die YOU SHOULD NOT MAKE HERE IDENTITY I DONT DIE) SHE RANDOMLY GETS GIGABUFED OVER THE COURSE OF 3 PATCHES
blizzard tell me why do you keep buffing orisa,mauga and widow instead of reworking frustrating aspects
like widow’s one shot could be deleted and here headshots now revel enemies through walls(bad idea but you get the point) to fix problematic aspects PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
STOP GIGA BUFFING BAPTISE HE IS ALREADY BROKEN BEYOND REPAIR PLEASE STOP
hey Kajor, any thoughts on why all of Overwatch's most prolific heroes (on ladder) have always been brawl type heroes, and the actual FPS heroes have had some of the lowest winrates historically?
it's weird right, when you consider that like 80% of the game is played at that poke/FPS range and the heroes that excel in that situation are the most hated, and yet some of the worst performing?
would you agree that suggests Overwatch is fundamentally imbalanced at the level of it's game mode design? with the activity during the 'brawl phase' (fighting on/for the objective) being disproportionately more meaningful/impactful? which creates a bias towards heroes with high sustain and consistency, such as Brig?
brig isnt played in brawl though. Brig is a poke character put along side the broken ass supports like ana. I'm not really sure who juno is played with, i didnt really play the game around the juno brig meta. but regardless brawl supports like lucio and moira do not need brig, so theres not much point playing her into brawl. Shes meant to play alongside poke to protect the other healer from dive (which counters poke)
Without being nearly as knowledge as Kajor, if what you are saying is even true its probably because the poke characters are boring as hell. Personally, I want to play overwatch, not valorant. Although characters like sojourn, who as talked about is broken, is an fps character you clearly desire. Idk, maybe her statistics are low but that means nothing. People find winston meta fun and the most balance, its kind of the default state overwatch resides to when the game is most balanced. Bear in mind that winston is dive, not brawl though.
Also youre forgetting all archetypes have some kind of advantage to payload/point. You say oh brawl is best because they fight on point. Well, what about the defending team? If the entire team is playing brawl and youre just sat on payload, the defending team has free reign. Brawl will struggle to contest space on maps with lots of high ground if some of the team can't get up easily, while an archetype like poke will destroy them from the high ground. Theres no reason why a poke team couldn't just kill the other team and take point once theyre all dead. Same with dive. Everybody has to take space away from payload. Brawl can have an advantage, say a character like rein who can just swing on the payload can be very oppressive on overtime when you are forced to play into his range. But like, this is mostly an advantage of rein and as i said the other archetypes can play payload/point differently.
@@SecureBirch410
I think you misunderstood me. I'm talking about historical winrate trends and how they show 'brawl' type heroes with sustain and consistent damage damage in their kits have always had higher winrates than their more offensively built counterparts and how that implies a bias in the core design of the game. given that like 80% of Overwatch plays like an FPS and the 'brawl' for/around the objective is a fraction of match time, you would expect the opposite to be true.
but clearly the 'FPS/poke/neutral' phase of the game that offensive heroes dominate is massively out of whack in regards to it's impact on the game. it's worth very little.
we play and appreciate this game as an FPS, that's why Widowmaker, Hog, Cass are some of the most popular and frustrating heroes to play against... and yet they've always been some of the worst performing heroes in the game. shouldn't that change? if the 'phase' of the game they excelled in actually mattered more, they would win more and we could nerf them and bring them into line. the game itself is misaligned.
@kennethnoisewater4423 can you give examples of heroes that you mean? I mean you talk about sustain, but hog is the sustain tank isn't he? Maybe I misunderstand what is meant by sustain. But hog is bad because he's unhealthy for the game. If hog is good, the only way to counter him is ana and it's not fair. Not fair on the tank who doesn't have it in their control to choose their supports, and not fair for supports to be forced to play that dumb character.
Cas... I thought cas is good? His main problem is his stun though. That's why he is unfun when he's meta. They can't balance it without removing it entirely.
And widowmaker - 1 shots have no place in this game.
@ yeah Cass is a good FPS hero, the point I'm making is that the game doesn't favour the FPS oriented heroes. and that means Widow (for example) is potentially overtuned.
she's obviously really good in those 'fps' scenarios that make up most of a match, but also one of the historically worst performing heroes in the game.
that means there's less room to nerf or truly balance her, because the game itself is imbalanced and biased against her design. you see what I'm saying?
@ I mean ashe, sojourn, sigma, bap these characters are perfectly fine. Ana is busted as hell. These characters are poke. Poke is fine... It just so happens you picked a few of those characters that are annoying. Poke wouldnt be an archetype if it didnt have a place in the game. its just that these characters tend to have high damage/cc that is annoying, they usually have these to help them deal with dive. I think youre making up this idea that theyre bad. Widowmaker may never be balanced but its not like cassidy can't be balanced. Its just that his cc will never not be annoying.
I'm starting to think that OW has never been good. It was new, appealing characters and visuals, but there was never any balance.If you think about some ridiculous things it had throughout the years, it all connects.
Buff hitscan fall off you mongrels
Cough widowmaker cough
Somba rework guide⁉️
The fact brig has never been reworked, tells you everything.
She did though
the reason u cant nerf widow is shown very well by marvel rivals widow without a 1 shot she is BY FAR the worst character in the game u either dont nerf her or remove her from the game no inbetween
Tracer shouldve been projectile
W Peggy 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Yo make Winston vid
wont* nerf
Where is dva?
1 boost 1kill HAHA insane
Tracer is in the worst state she's been in OW2 thanks to direct nerfs to her dmg, spread, falloff and buffs to other heroes. How do you keep underplaying this? Just because people with thousands of hours on her play her at the highest levels, doesn't mean much for the rest of us. Do you sincerely think the game should be squarely balanced around professional play? Or champion ranks?
I agree but the point is that tracer is almost never bad, yes very bad for tracer standards at the moment but still playable and good in the right hands and situations. I dont even think she should be buffed, season 9 changes should just be reverted lol
Her general win rate even on lower ranks is still above average tho. If the developers decide to buff her, alot of heroes should be buffed also, and that doesnt work because all you are doing then is just raising the general power level. I do agree with you that this guy only talks about how balanced heroes are based on extreme high levels and pro play. It is pretty annoying and for 99% of the people its completely irrelevant.
dude i like overwatch but the playerbase is kinda pathetic. yall whine about everything
You are a bot.
@Ropewatch how'd you know?