Tuned out of the series after Civ 5, but isn't the whole point of the civilisation leader that it's someone who, you know, LED the civilisation? Very weird choice
I’m not? If anything I’m being understanding of where people are coming from. I said “limited narrow view” not “narrow minded” referring to the labeling of things ( in this case what constitutes being woke). That’s because there’s a lot of subjectivity that comes into play when labeling these things. Especially when subjects like beauty, identity and historical relevance are involved. The point was we’re all inherently subjective by our nature so don’t be so quick to call something woke lest you carelessly invalidate your own stance.
@ShuUA-cam Semantics. "Limited narrow view" or "narrow minded", you're just saying those people are stupid for seeing "woke" where there isn't, thus invalidating their opinions. Personally I'm using the term to quickly describe anything that's anti white, and in this case, I think most people do too. And yes, slowly replacing white people in their own culture is anti white. No one is doing the same to any other culture anywhere on the globe.
I think the big difference is that, without Benjamin Franklin, France's involvement in the Revolutionary war would not have been as it was in the end. He is also a founding father. Which Harriet Tubman is not. Me looking in as a European with no dog in the fight, I would have definitely expected Benjamin to be a playable leader at some point. But Harriet Tubman leaves my head scratching. Especially since there are better examples of political leaders they could have gone for (like Martin Luther King) if they wanted to go down thst route. Picking her over Martin Luther King does leage my head scratching. But that is just my opinion as a European looking in.
There are other options in terms of American leaders for sure, and MLK may be the better choice for a Civil Rights leader. But Harriet Tubman isn't a nobody. Even if they did gravitate towards her because of her being a woman, she's still a great person in American History. Also, it's cool to see an underground/spy type coming from America. Either way, I feel like the outrage is over the top. At the very most, it's just kind of, like you said, a head-scratcher but not really a big deal.
In the middle of a culture war, such as the one America is now experiencing, there is only celebration and outrage. We Germans know this better than anyone I am afraid to say. Whether this is a diversity pick or not matter little in my opinion as long as the game is good. We will see when the game releases in February.
@@Jannfndnanakid Yeah, the issue is the US is so full of legendary leaders, like our executives have decided the fate of the entire world and built the greatest empire the world has ever known, where is Eisenhower, JFK, FDR and so on, people who commanded the United States? I have no beef with Tubman, but of the options she's pretty low on the list, she may be great but the list is huge and some of the people on this list have done things that changed history so severely that they will be talked about for a thousand years.
Civ prefers older people rather than more recent people as leaders, with a few notable exceptions like gandhi being grandfathered in. Also, ibn battuta was never a leader either and much more obscure in the west than harriet tubman. Face it, you're all just mad she's a black woman
People acting like Joan Of Arc and Gandhi whove been in Civ for a long time were leaders of nations. I would actually argue Harriet Tubman is a similar influence on America as Joan Of Arc was on France
@Sakattack2023 it's obviously not the same exact situation, but Harriet Tubman did lead a lot of people to freedom from slavery. That's what we call leading people. She also is the first woman to lead a US military operation which was during the Civil War at the raid of Combahee Ferry which freed 700 people. I'd say she did a lot. I say they are similar because they both are women figures who have this badass reputation fighting against an oppressor which inspired those around them. Neither were head of state, but rather were fighters in their own way, who would become feminist icons in their own right.
@@theamaeve8175 Joan of Arc lead an army of over 8,000 men, broke a siege that eventually lead to the king of France returning to his throne and the English being expelled from her country, but she was captured, tried for heresy and burned alive at the stake at the age of ***19*** she did all of this before she was even 20. She became a canonized saint for a reason, I don't want to make tubman out as a nobody but, I think level of effect on their cause were drastically different Also not sure if Joan of Arc is a great icon of feminism, she her self said if god had not chosen her she would have not strayed from the path of a faithful catholic woman. "I would rather die than do something which I know to be a sin, or to be against God's will." pretty sure she was just a Zealot who happened to be a natural at the whole war thing.
@@deepbludreams she's a feminist icon because she refused to dress as a woman and stood up for her own freedom to move about the world in the way she desired. Being Christian does is not mutually exclusive with being an early icon of feminism. (Besides, literally everyone was religious back then) You should read up a bit more on feminism, and actually queer movements, who both look favorably on Joan Of Arc. Harriet Tubman was born into slavery and escaped then went back and helped more people escape poverty, then on a national level, she was a key force behind pressuring Lincoln to free the slaves and went back with the US military to run operations to free more. If being canonized as a saint was still like, a big deal, Harriet Tubman would likely qualify but America is secular and Catholicism is just kinda around in the country and not a key force to it. She's absolutely an iconic and key figure in US history and you're intentionally diminishing what she's done because ??
@@theamaeve8175 I think that sounds just like capturing a religious icon in a movement without understanding who she really was for the sake of trying to find figures for it, she was not really trying to stick up for women or whatever, nothing in our writing or understanding of her show any her being christen for the sake of it being the norm, she was DEEPLY, Zealously devoted to her god, like she was effectively a battle nun, like bro she believed in a prophecy of an armed virgin who would save france from the english (IE herself eventually), she had zero stake in trying to prove whatever establishment at the time was wrong about gender roles or whatever, she did not like invite women into her army or whatever. Her actions may have bent the gender norms at the time, but she personally had no concept of it somehow being an act of what we'd define as feminism, and she clearly had no intention of doing so, she had the direct ear of the king of france and said not a single word relating to gender roles in that era. Joan of Arc was quoted during her march to Chinon ""Fear not: what I do, I do by commandment. My brothers in Paradise tell me what I must do."" these don't exactly sound like the words of somebody who is trying to progress a woman's cause in any way shape or form. As for Queer movements? I have no dog in this fight, but If we are really going to pretend the most violent, warrior saint who ever lived who believed verbatim the word of god was the pages of the testaments would somehow not have raised a sword to prosecute a modern day queer person, I think we are just day dreaming at this point and projecting modern standards on a figure of antiquity, simply for putting a venerated saint on the "other team" to piss people off. If anything, her story is a one of classism, she started life as a simple peasant and choose to fight against adversity to free her nation and in her own words, serve the will of her god and seek paradise in finality that being an eventuality where she was tried by an inquisition who later condemned themselves for burning her at the stake.... She never considered her gender outside of the biblical sense to be of any relevance
Civ prefers older people rather than more recent people as leaders, with a few notable exceptions like gandhi being grandfathered in. Also, ibn battuta was never a leader either and much more obscure in the west than harriet tubman and n o one said shit. Face it, you're all just mad she's a black woman
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Tuned out of the series after Civ 5, but isn't the whole point of the civilisation leader that it's someone who, you know, LED the civilisation? Very weird choice
lol the games have always had historical figures be leaders regardless if they were actually leaders of those nations/states/kingdoms.
Why are you diminishing people's opinions on this, as "narrow minded"? What makes your view better than anyone else's?
I’m not? If anything I’m being understanding of where people are coming from. I said “limited narrow view” not “narrow minded” referring to the labeling of things ( in this case what constitutes being woke). That’s because there’s a lot of subjectivity that comes into play when labeling these things. Especially when subjects like beauty, identity and historical relevance are involved. The point was we’re all inherently subjective by our nature so don’t be so quick to call something woke lest you carelessly invalidate your own stance.
@ShuUA-cam Semantics. "Limited narrow view" or "narrow minded", you're just saying those people are stupid for seeing "woke" where there isn't, thus invalidating their opinions. Personally I'm using the term to quickly describe anything that's anti white, and in this case, I think most people do too.
And yes, slowly replacing white people in their own culture is anti white. No one is doing the same to any other culture anywhere on the globe.
I think the big difference is that, without Benjamin Franklin, France's involvement in the Revolutionary war would not have been as it was in the end. He is also a founding father. Which Harriet Tubman is not. Me looking in as a European with no dog in the fight, I would have definitely expected Benjamin to be a playable leader at some point. But Harriet Tubman leaves my head scratching. Especially since there are better examples of political leaders they could have gone for (like Martin Luther King) if they wanted to go down thst route. Picking her over Martin Luther King does leage my head scratching. But that is just my opinion as a European looking in.
There are other options in terms of American leaders for sure, and MLK may be the better choice for a Civil Rights leader. But Harriet Tubman isn't a nobody. Even if they did gravitate towards her because of her being a woman, she's still a great person in American History. Also, it's cool to see an underground/spy type coming from America. Either way, I feel like the outrage is over the top. At the very most, it's just kind of, like you said, a head-scratcher but not really a big deal.
In the middle of a culture war, such as the one America is now experiencing, there is only celebration and outrage. We Germans know this better than anyone I am afraid to say. Whether this is a diversity pick or not matter little in my opinion as long as the game is good. We will see when the game releases in February.
@@ShuUA-cam For the purpose of determining a "Leader" of a nation? Yeah, she might as well be a literal nobody.
@@Jannfndnanakid Yeah, the issue is the US is so full of legendary leaders, like our executives have decided the fate of the entire world and built the greatest empire the world has ever known, where is Eisenhower, JFK, FDR and so on, people who commanded the United States? I have no beef with Tubman, but of the options she's pretty low on the list, she may be great but the list is huge and some of the people on this list have done things that changed history so severely that they will be talked about for a thousand years.
Civ prefers older people rather than more recent people as leaders, with a few notable exceptions like gandhi being grandfathered in. Also, ibn battuta was never a leader either and much more obscure in the west than harriet tubman. Face it, you're all just mad she's a black woman
Equal time, I’m fine with Harriet Tubman if we can get Jefferson Davis or George Lincoln Rockwell.
Those two arent even close
@ Rockwell is a Yankee, Davis is a Dixie
Laughably unpopular take. It's a DEI Woke pick. There isn't any leader in any previous civ, remotely comparable.
People acting like Joan Of Arc and Gandhi whove been in Civ for a long time were leaders of nations.
I would actually argue Harriet Tubman is a similar influence on America as Joan Of Arc was on France
definitely not, she ran a smuggling operation and didn't make any speeches or lead anyone, except to the north.
@Sakattack2023 it's obviously not the same exact situation, but Harriet Tubman did lead a lot of people to freedom from slavery. That's what we call leading people. She also is the first woman to lead a US military operation which was during the Civil War at the raid of Combahee Ferry which freed 700 people. I'd say she did a lot.
I say they are similar because they both are women figures who have this badass reputation fighting against an oppressor which inspired those around them. Neither were head of state, but rather were fighters in their own way, who would become feminist icons in their own right.
@@theamaeve8175 Joan of Arc lead an army of over 8,000 men, broke a siege that eventually lead to the king of France returning to his throne and the English being expelled from her country, but she was captured, tried for heresy and burned alive at the stake at the age of ***19*** she did all of this before she was even 20.
She became a canonized saint for a reason, I don't want to make tubman out as a nobody but, I think level of effect on their cause were drastically different
Also not sure if Joan of Arc is a great icon of feminism, she her self said if god had not chosen her she would have not strayed from the path of a faithful catholic woman.
"I would rather die than do something which I know to be a sin, or to be against God's will." pretty sure she was just a Zealot who happened to be a natural at the whole war thing.
@@deepbludreams she's a feminist icon because she refused to dress as a woman and stood up for her own freedom to move about the world in the way she desired. Being Christian does is not mutually exclusive with being an early icon of feminism. (Besides, literally everyone was religious back then) You should read up a bit more on feminism, and actually queer movements, who both look favorably on Joan Of Arc.
Harriet Tubman was born into slavery and escaped then went back and helped more people escape poverty, then on a national level, she was a key force behind pressuring Lincoln to free the slaves and went back with the US military to run operations to free more. If being canonized as a saint was still like, a big deal, Harriet Tubman would likely qualify but America is secular and Catholicism is just kinda around in the country and not a key force to it. She's absolutely an iconic and key figure in US history and you're intentionally diminishing what she's done because ??
@@theamaeve8175 I think that sounds just like capturing a religious icon in a movement without understanding who she really was for the sake of trying to find figures for it, she was not really trying to stick up for women or whatever, nothing in our writing or understanding of her show any her being christen for the sake of it being the norm, she was DEEPLY, Zealously devoted to her god, like she was effectively a battle nun, like bro she believed in a prophecy of an armed virgin who would save france from the english (IE herself eventually), she had zero stake in trying to prove whatever establishment at the time was wrong about gender roles or whatever, she did not like invite women into her army or whatever.
Her actions may have bent the gender norms at the time, but she personally had no concept of it somehow being an act of what we'd define as feminism, and she clearly had no intention of doing so, she had the direct ear of the king of france and said not a single word relating to gender roles in that era.
Joan of Arc was quoted during her march to Chinon ""Fear not: what I do, I do by commandment. My brothers in Paradise tell me what I must do."" these don't exactly sound like the words of somebody who is trying to progress a woman's cause in any way shape or form.
As for Queer movements? I have no dog in this fight, but If we are really going to pretend the most violent, warrior saint who ever lived who believed verbatim the word of god was the pages of the testaments would somehow not have raised a sword to prosecute a modern day queer person, I think we are just day dreaming at this point and projecting modern standards on a figure of antiquity, simply for putting a venerated saint on the "other team" to piss people off.
If anything, her story is a one of classism, she started life as a simple peasant and choose to fight against adversity to free her nation and in her own words, serve the will of her god and seek paradise in finality that being an eventuality where she was tried by an inquisition who later condemned themselves for burning her at the stake.... She never considered her gender outside of the biblical sense to be of any relevance
Commenting with my feet, because my hands are busy applauding.
it definitely is a DEI thing. but these games are basically cod, so who cares.
Civ prefers older people rather than more recent people as leaders, with a few notable exceptions like gandhi being grandfathered in. Also, ibn battuta was never a leader either and much more obscure in the west than harriet tubman and n o one said shit. Face it, you're all just mad she's a black woman