When I hear someone say 'this is the best I've ever seen' the first thing that comes to mind is 'you haven't seen much then'... There is no 'the best' in something as relative as fashion. There's too many different things around. I agree with you!
Having been in the London/Paris fashion industry, both in Design & Buying (one of the stores he mentioned), I can 100% attest to the part about buyers and avant garde designers. Avant garde houses WILL FAIL no matter how creative and loved by the press they are, if they can’t produce anything “commercial”. At the end of the day, majority of consumers buy because they want to wear these pieces, and 90-95% of the population are v “normal” in the way they dress. It doesn’t always have to be “boring”, but these realistic pieces don’t normally look like graduate collections. There is a whole lot of editing that is usually done.
100%, since working in the industry I’ve come to see first hand how there is a huge disconnect between what’s actually selling VS what the press like or what is being talked about the most on social media. Sometimes it overlaps but not as often as people might think. There are so many brands that are critically acclaimed but are struggling financially, some of which had to just close down completely. (Peter Do, Craig Green, Raf Simons etc)
@@FashionRoadmanYES!!! Another example would be a Thomas Tait - LVMH Prize winner with so much press and industry support in 2015, also a fave of late Louise Wilson (accdg to a designer I know who was in the same cohort in csm), and yet nothing much has happened to his label. It has been said many, many times, Fashion is a business.
Hello mister Rod I'm an african american and i'm thirty nine I started reading vouge when I was about twelve, When I was reading this and when I was into fashion No one was into this, especially not any black kids. So to see you doing this channel it is It is absolutely amazing very proud of you and you are very intelligent don't stop
Thanks so much I really appreciate it! ❤️ To be honest, I can see you mean. The area I grew up in London (Lewisham), people legit used to make fun of me because I was into fashion (not to the level of bullying but close) but now the same people have a deeper interest in it and I have conversations with them about it all the time (Not to go too deep but I think part of it is because black men in society are seen as having to live up to this hyper masculine standard and anything that slightly shifts from that wasn’t accepted back then. I remember back then, people could not wrap their heads around the fact that I was attracted to women, but at the same time had a lot of gay friends in fashion who I used to hang around with all the time. Luckily, a lot of these boxes have been broken with time). Maybe it’s just the timing of more people being into fashion and I know there were definitely black people that were super into fashion around the same time but maybe they felt they couldn’t be too open about it out of fear of facing abuse for it. I’m sure the rich black kids in the more affluent parts of London didn’t have to contend with the same mental gymnastics and I can imagine the dynamic was probably the same in the US because there tends to be a lot of similarities culturally.
im younger and black and i appreciate tfrm soooo much. it feels like sm of the more "avant garde" space isnt for us and that were designed to stay in a more streetwear esc space
I'm female and in my mid 60s and have seen a lot of fashion come and go and have worn a lot of fashion, both regular fashion and avant garde fashion. But, I'm a chameleon when it comes to fashion and wear a wide range of styles. Plus, I live where there's a wide variety of fashion to choose from. It's true that it comes down to being able to create a product that the masses will buy. And I agree that it's true about shareholders wanting to see sales and growth and especially long-time growth. Plus, these days money is a lot tighter than it was in some other decades and investors are not automatically dishing out a lot of money. There are and have been avant garde designers out there who make and have made styles that are really timeless and also of high quailty. I have worn Issey Miyake Collection since the early 80s and still have my collection of way back when Issey was still designing. And there were other Japanese designers that I wore starting back in the early 80s and still have timeless pieces by them. But, times change and fashion changes as to what people buy and wear. I grew up back when people really dressed up for different events and occasions and were very creative with their styling and not as cookie cutter as it seems these days. I think people are focusing more on putting money into accessories (bags, jewelry, watches, footwear, etc) these days than into avant garde clothing pieces. Greetings from Los Angeles
You brought up some really good points thay I left out in my video: I did mention brands not being able to take the same risks as before because they are working with more money and the pressure of shareholders but you mentioned a point about money being tighter now which is so true. Since I’ve been born and I’m literally only 25 years old, this is the 2nd recession I’ve experienced. In general, business is done in a more risk adverse way across the board, the banks are stricter with loans etc so brands just can’t afford to do things that they once could because it could financially decimate a brand if they get it wrong (Gucci might enter this territory if they’re not careful - it’s a brand that’s so big and has so many employees that a major decrease in revenue could be catastrophic considering the 100s of millions of overheads, shipping, bills, wages etc on the brands books)
As for what I've seen and experienced over many decades as a fashion consumer, these days a lot of brands are skating on very thin ice. But, as far as I'm concerned, they've dug their own hole as they continue to throw out ridiculous prices and price increases and many times twice a year. And most of the time, quality and price aren't in sync with each other as far as I'm concerned. Just give me well-designed, avant garde or not, high quality products. Then, I'm a happy camper. I miss the quality of yesteryears. Greetings from Los Angeles@@FashionRoadman
@@d.y.e3803 As the son of a father who used to be a fashion snob in the 80s and 90s I've been really lucky because I've been able to inherit a lot of beautiful garments and compare them directly to what is currently offered by luxury fashion brands. You bring up a good point that they ask ridiculous prices for garments that should last a lifetime when in reality they don't, so I agree with you that they've dug their own graves. Personally I think one equivalent to yesteryear's luxury garments are Japanese brands such as Orslow, Buzz Ricksons and Warehouse which really care about craftmanship, the drawback with many of these brands however is that they tend to care more about craftmanship and workwear rather than elegance. So what about us who wants both quality and elegance? Personally I really enjoy mfpen, Barena Venezia, current Stone Island (they have started to drift away from slim fits which is good imo) and also agnès b. is still super consistent with their forever line that after all these years offer the same garments still made in France. Sorry if my english is a bit messy, it is not my native language.
I think for a Avant guard designers to make it. They have to have something wearable to back it up and sale! Like Alexander mcqueen who had avant guard shows And some pieces but in back of it He had wonderful tailoring skills from the row, Beautiful jackets and beautiful dress making skills to actually sell.
The bubble will eventually burst as in numerous other fields. The question is if humanity can change their directive away from infinite growth to other goals… unlikely to happen but I believe (ironically) infinite opportunitys would arise.
great video 👌. Regardless of what people say, humans want to fit in for the most part. That probably isn’t true of the audience for a video like this, or at least the rules around that will be different. it does mean there’s a pull toward the normal/boring for buyers. and if you are making clothes; people will see your clothes. Rick Owens is a great example. many of his simpler items have hints of the wilder clothes within them. boring, doesn’t have to be boring
100% agree and that’s why I said it’s easier said than done. Even what is considered “commercial” for designers like Rick Owens, Yohji Yamamoto, Margiela etc has a very distinctive character about it that still sets it apart. It’s so difficult to be able to maintain that design language across all types of products a brand makes especially the more commercial offerings like accessories, t-shirts etc
@@FashionRoadman a difficult task, impressive if a designer is able to dial up and down to make a business viable. is there any other industry that requires this?!
Very true, but Bernard stuck with it until it started selling like hot cakes. There’s an amazing part of the “Kingdom of Dreams” series that illustrates how John Galliano started to win over Bernard Arnualt’s favour
I always come here for a daily dose of sensible. I have a lot of questions about what is going on with Fashion in this modern age. A lot of them get answered here.
Same here! I think it’s just complete and utter greed, a lot of these brands have watered down every last about their identity in the pursuit of profit.
So I’m in marketing and I always advise my clients to stay away from words like ‘best’ ‘better’ etc. As these are indeed empty - somewhat childish - terms when it comes to provability (is that a word? 😊) or just being flat out subjective. And to stay on point; metrics are key in the end. If you can’t measure. You can’t improve.
You mention tailoring, beside sportswear, as often overlocked aspects of fashion. Would love to see a video where you share you journalistic thoughts on popular British menswear brands like Drake’s or Anglo-Italian. Cheers
i would love nothing more than to see this side of fashion youtube focus more on things like activewear and tailoring even from the lens of avant garde.
This conversation makes me think of Zac Posen's House of Z. He made well-constructed beautiful gowns. I wonder if his business suffered because he didn't branch out enough in cosmetics.
Your comments are slightly misleading -- Comme des Garcons made money almost right from the get-go, and Rick Owens was selling those motor-cycle jackets like hotcakes in the late 90s and early 00s --that's what put them on the map in the first place. You're suggesting that a brand can put on shows with avant-garde designs while simultaneously look for that one commercial product that they can sell, and this almost never works, because they will run out of money soon enough. Instead, these brands almost always have that one hit product, and then they build their looks around that.
The point made in the video was that every brand needs commercial products that help keep the brands afloat and help them maintain artistic integrity - using ramones, CDG play etc are examples to illustrate said point and I was specifically talking about what makes them money now - that is not refuting similar items that have helped them achieve the same goals in the past so of course your point is 100% valid but it didn’t necessarily address specifically what I said. I agree with you that these brands almost always have that hit product, I just gave examples of what those current hit products are for these brands. My wider point was basically to illustrate that you have to think commercially as a designer, there tends to be this mentality with some people that brands like CDG or Rick Owens aren’t commercial but they are, otherwise they still wouldn’t be here - you just have to do it in a smart way Also, In the early years CDG was definitely critically acclaimed and while things were selling, because of the big overheads it was a struggle at the start, then she became really successful and had franchises all over the place. However, the clothing sales did start to decline and that’s when her and Adrian Joffe started planning ways to diversify the brands income so they aren’t solely reliant on the brand’s clothing sales (this happens to a lot of brands where as they grow, their employees grow and they expand but then one bad season could legit decimate large businesses because the growth of the business has created huge overheads based on an assumed level of annual revenue) - Hence, her and Adrian Joffe started the fragrance line, eventually opened the first Dover street market etc. I actually only know this info because I’ve spoken to / interviewed Adrian Joffe as well as many people who have worked under the CDG umbrella like Fumito Ganryu. Sometimes it looks like a brand is financially healthy because they are selling a lot but a lot of the structures of these brands mean that they are still in financial difficulties. Just look at brands like Peter Do & Craig Green, I see so many people wearing these brands in london, they have loads of stockists worldwide and are still in financial difficulty. You need that one item that bolsters you into the mainstream and generates enough revenue for you to be able to invest in other parts of the business that ensure long term growth which is now the point that brands like Rick Owens & CDG are at.
You’re not fully getting it business wise, yes they got popular and recognized in their (relatively) early days while they were still a small brand but to maintain a large business like theirs today, those mainstream products are absolutely necessary. Also, using CDG and RO as examples it’s not that realistic because they’re some of the few exceptions of avant garde brands having a financial success but there are definitely way more brands that didn’t survived all of these financial struggles no matter how good and loved they were.
Its funny you mention it actually, my first video on that channel is dropping next week. Just needed to settle properly after finishing my degree before I got started with that channel
Tbh the articles did say “parted ways.” I find it hard to believe the brand would sack him when they didn’t have any metric as to whether the collection actually did well or not.
When I hear someone say 'this is the best I've ever seen' the first thing that comes to mind is 'you haven't seen much then'... There is no 'the best' in something as relative as fashion. There's too many different things around. I agree with you!
Having been in the London/Paris fashion industry, both in Design & Buying (one of the stores he mentioned), I can 100% attest to the part about buyers and avant garde designers. Avant garde houses WILL FAIL no matter how creative and loved by the press they are, if they can’t produce anything “commercial”. At the end of the day, majority of consumers buy because they want to wear these pieces, and 90-95% of the population are v “normal” in the way they dress. It doesn’t always have to be “boring”, but these realistic pieces don’t normally look like graduate collections. There is a whole lot of editing that is usually done.
Would you be open to share your trajectory on how you ended up working as a buyer? I've been interested in exploring this aspect of fashion further
100%, since working in the industry I’ve come to see first hand how there is a huge disconnect between what’s actually selling VS what the press like or what is being talked about the most on social media. Sometimes it overlaps but not as often as people might think. There are so many brands that are critically acclaimed but are struggling financially, some of which had to just close down completely. (Peter Do, Craig Green, Raf Simons etc)
Whither Viktor y Wolf? For example
@@FashionRoadman Viktor and Wolf?
@@FashionRoadmanYES!!! Another example would be a Thomas Tait - LVMH Prize winner with so much press and industry support in 2015, also a fave of late Louise Wilson (accdg to a designer I know who was in the same cohort in csm), and yet nothing much has happened to his label. It has been said many, many times, Fashion is a business.
Hello mister Rod I'm an african american and i'm thirty nine I started reading vouge when I was about twelve, When I was reading this and when I was into fashion No one was into this, especially not any black kids. So to see you doing this channel it is It is absolutely amazing very proud of you and you are very intelligent don't stop
He is!! We need more of us❤👌🏾
I’m African American as well, older than 39, and when I was younger there were many Blk folks I knew into Fashion.
Thanks so much I really appreciate it! ❤️
To be honest, I can see you mean. The area I grew up in London (Lewisham), people legit used to make fun of me because I was into fashion (not to the level of bullying but close) but now the same people have a deeper interest in it and I have conversations with them about it all the time (Not to go too deep but I think part of it is because black men in society are seen as having to live up to this hyper masculine standard and anything that slightly shifts from that wasn’t accepted back then. I remember back then, people could not wrap their heads around the fact that I was attracted to women, but at the same time had a lot of gay friends in fashion who I used to hang around with all the time. Luckily, a lot of these boxes have been broken with time).
Maybe it’s just the timing of more people being into fashion and I know there were definitely black people that were super into fashion around the same time but maybe they felt they couldn’t be too open about it out of fear of facing abuse for it. I’m sure the rich black kids in the more affluent parts of London didn’t have to contend with the same mental gymnastics and I can imagine the dynamic was probably the same in the US because there tends to be a lot of similarities culturally.
im younger and black and i appreciate tfrm soooo much. it feels like sm of the more "avant garde" space isnt for us and that were designed to stay in a more streetwear esc space
I'm female and in my mid 60s and have seen a lot of fashion come and go and have worn a lot of fashion, both regular fashion and avant garde fashion. But, I'm a chameleon when it comes to fashion and wear a wide range of styles. Plus, I live where there's a wide variety of fashion to choose from.
It's true that it comes down to being able to create a product that the masses will buy. And I agree that it's true about shareholders wanting to see sales and growth and especially long-time growth. Plus, these days money is a lot tighter than it was in some other decades and investors are not automatically dishing out a lot of money.
There are and have been avant garde designers out there who make and have made styles that are really timeless and also of high quailty. I have worn Issey Miyake Collection since the early 80s and still have my collection of way back when Issey was still designing. And there were other Japanese designers that I wore starting back in the early 80s and still have timeless pieces by them. But, times change and fashion changes as to what people buy and wear. I grew up back when people really dressed up for different events and occasions and were very creative with their styling and not as cookie cutter as it seems these days. I think people are focusing more on putting money into accessories (bags, jewelry, watches, footwear, etc) these days than into avant garde clothing pieces.
Greetings from Los Angeles
You brought up some really good points thay I left out in my video:
I did mention brands not being able to take the same risks as before because they are working with more money and the pressure of shareholders but you mentioned a point about money being tighter now which is so true. Since I’ve been born and I’m literally only 25 years old, this is the 2nd recession I’ve experienced. In general, business is done in a more risk adverse way across the board, the banks are stricter with loans etc so brands just can’t afford to do things that they once could because it could financially decimate a brand if they get it wrong (Gucci might enter this territory if they’re not careful - it’s a brand that’s so big and has so many employees that a major decrease in revenue could be catastrophic considering the 100s of millions of overheads, shipping, bills, wages etc on the brands books)
As for what I've seen and experienced over many decades as a fashion consumer, these days a lot of brands are skating on very thin ice. But, as far as I'm concerned, they've dug their own hole as they continue to throw out ridiculous prices and price increases and many times twice a year. And most of the time, quality and price aren't in sync with each other as far as I'm concerned. Just give me well-designed, avant garde or not, high quality products. Then, I'm a happy camper. I miss the quality of yesteryears.
Greetings from Los Angeles@@FashionRoadman
@@d.y.e3803 As the son of a father who used to be a fashion snob in the 80s and 90s I've been really lucky because I've been able to inherit a lot of beautiful garments and compare them directly to what is currently offered by luxury fashion brands. You bring up a good point that they ask ridiculous prices for garments that should last a lifetime when in reality they don't, so I agree with you that they've dug their own graves.
Personally I think one equivalent to yesteryear's luxury garments are Japanese brands such as Orslow, Buzz Ricksons and Warehouse which really care about craftmanship, the drawback with many of these brands however is that they tend to care more about craftmanship and workwear rather than elegance.
So what about us who wants both quality and elegance? Personally I really enjoy mfpen, Barena Venezia, current Stone Island (they have started to drift away from slim fits which is good imo) and also agnès b. is still super consistent with their forever line that after all these years offer the same garments still made in France.
Sorry if my english is a bit messy, it is not my native language.
I think for a Avant guard designers to make it. They have to have something wearable to back it up and sale! Like Alexander mcqueen who had avant guard shows And some pieces but in back of it He had wonderful tailoring skills from the row, Beautiful jackets and beautiful dress making skills to actually sell.
The bubble will eventually burst as in numerous other fields. The question is if humanity can change their directive away from infinite growth to other goals… unlikely to happen but I believe (ironically) infinite opportunitys would arise.
great video 👌. Regardless of what people say, humans want to fit in for the most part. That probably isn’t true of the audience for a video like this, or at least the rules around that will be different. it does mean there’s a pull toward the normal/boring for buyers. and if you are making clothes; people will see your clothes. Rick Owens is a great example. many of his simpler items have hints of the wilder clothes within them. boring, doesn’t have to be boring
100% agree and that’s why I said it’s easier said than done. Even what is considered “commercial” for designers like Rick Owens, Yohji Yamamoto, Margiela etc has a very distinctive character about it that still sets it apart. It’s so difficult to be able to maintain that design language across all types of products a brand makes especially the more commercial offerings like accessories, t-shirts etc
@@FashionRoadman a difficult task, impressive if a designer is able to dial up and down to make a business viable. is there any other industry that requires this?!
Shareholder/Creator balance, thats what happened to Galliano early on, his designs were so outlandish that it was hard to find people to bankroll him.
Very true, but Bernard stuck with it until it started selling like hot cakes. There’s an amazing part of the “Kingdom of Dreams” series that illustrates how John Galliano started to win over Bernard Arnualt’s favour
@@FashionRoadman Ill check it out.
Great Video. It's not an easy task to find a way to make a commercial product that still aligns to a niche brand.
100%
Dang the Haven Court jacket 👁️
👀
I always come here for a daily dose of sensible. I have a lot of questions about what is going on with Fashion in this modern age. A lot of them get answered here.
Yeah, I don’t think I’ll ever understand why brands are not happy with sustaining healthy profits
Same here! I think it’s just complete and utter greed, a lot of these brands have watered down every last about their identity in the pursuit of profit.
And also the fact that the younger generation has lost their appetite with luxury.. even for gen z, they are now more open on buying good fakes
So I’m in marketing and I always advise my clients to stay away from words like ‘best’ ‘better’ etc. As these are indeed empty - somewhat childish - terms when it comes to provability (is that a word? 😊) or just being flat out subjective. And to stay on point; metrics are key in the end. If you can’t measure. You can’t improve.
You mention tailoring, beside sportswear, as often overlocked aspects of fashion.
Would love to see a video where you share you journalistic thoughts on popular British menswear brands like Drake’s or Anglo-Italian. Cheers
i would love nothing more than to see this side of fashion youtube focus more on things like activewear and tailoring even from the lens of avant garde.
thoughtful as ever, thanks!
Just found your channel and subscribed love the insight and vibes! keep up the good work!
Your editing skill on your videos are great
Thanks! I try, improving every video
Love the video thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This conversation makes me think of Zac Posen's House of Z. He made well-constructed beautiful gowns. I wonder if his business suffered because he didn't branch out enough in cosmetics.
This was really good
Thanks bro 🙏🏿
nice take and BONNE NUIT STUDIO cap
Merci!
one solution: we need more avant garde customers with money😂
Hahaha 😂
That’s the trouble! Nobody has any money at present! At least, that’s what I feel. (hello from Western Australia.) Sigh ….
@@mimmamarg5394 I feel ya! worst time to be an adult I’d say. 😭😭
Your comments are slightly misleading -- Comme des Garcons made money almost right from the get-go, and Rick Owens was selling those motor-cycle jackets like hotcakes in the late 90s and early 00s --that's what put them on the map in the first place. You're suggesting that a brand can put on shows with avant-garde designs while simultaneously look for that one commercial product that they can sell, and this almost never works, because they will run out of money soon enough. Instead, these brands almost always have that one hit product, and then they build their looks around that.
The point made in the video was that every brand needs commercial products that help keep the brands afloat and help them maintain artistic integrity - using ramones, CDG play etc are examples to illustrate said point and I was specifically talking about what makes them money now - that is not refuting similar items that have helped them achieve the same goals in the past so of course your point is 100% valid but it didn’t necessarily address specifically what I said. I agree with you that these brands almost always have that hit product, I just gave examples of what those current hit products are for these brands. My wider point was basically to illustrate that you have to think commercially as a designer, there tends to be this mentality with some people that brands like CDG or Rick Owens aren’t commercial but they are, otherwise they still wouldn’t be here - you just have to do it in a smart way
Also, In the early years CDG was definitely critically acclaimed and while things were selling, because of the big overheads it was a struggle at the start, then she became really successful and had franchises all over the place. However, the clothing sales did start to decline and that’s when her and Adrian Joffe started planning ways to diversify the brands income so they aren’t solely reliant on the brand’s clothing sales (this happens to a lot of brands where as they grow, their employees grow and they expand but then one bad season could legit decimate large businesses because the growth of the business has created huge overheads based on an assumed level of annual revenue) - Hence, her and Adrian Joffe started the fragrance line, eventually opened the first Dover street market etc.
I actually only know this info because I’ve spoken to / interviewed Adrian Joffe as well as many people who have worked under the CDG umbrella like Fumito Ganryu.
Sometimes it looks like a brand is financially healthy because they are selling a lot but a lot of the structures of these brands mean that they are still in financial difficulties. Just look at brands like Peter Do & Craig Green, I see so many people wearing these brands in london, they have loads of stockists worldwide and are still in financial difficulty. You need that one item that bolsters you into the mainstream and generates enough revenue for you to be able to invest in other parts of the business that ensure long term growth which is now the point that brands like Rick Owens & CDG are at.
You’re not fully getting it business wise, yes they got popular and recognized in their (relatively) early days while they were still a small brand but to maintain a large business like theirs today, those mainstream products are absolutely necessary. Also, using CDG and RO as examples it’s not that realistic because they’re some of the few exceptions of avant garde brands having a financial success but there are definitely way more brands that didn’t survived all of these financial struggles no matter how good and loved they were.
EXCUSE ME?!? Cant say one designer is the bets of all time? *err cough* Lindsay Lohan for Ungaro *cough*
😂😂😂😂
We need new buyers 😂
Looool 😂 but they can’t change what the customers want
13:18 i didn’t catch all the names can someone type them for me?
hey what happened to the fragrance channel 😭
Its funny you mention it actually, my first video on that channel is dropping next week. Just needed to settle properly after finishing my degree before I got started with that channel
Yo Phillipp Plein is the goat designer smh Ayo, I'm so disappointed
He was sacked bro, let's cut the BS
Tbh the articles did say “parted ways.” I find it hard to believe the brand would sack him when they didn’t have any metric as to whether the collection actually did well or not.