I chose between these two in 2023. Turned out to be an easy choice due to Honda dealers being corrupt. I bought an 08 Si new and thought I'd like to get a new gen as a commuter. Dealers wanted non refundable deposits before test drive, and then expected to sell with a markup. VW experience was worlds better and I've been happy with my GLI.
This is exactly something the reviewers never can compare, although both have similar experiences. But if Honda don't want to sell, at least they are upfront with it.
Miss the old days, bought my 2020 Si, all I had to do was call the dealer and said I was serious about buying. We agreed on the price and they held the car for me until I could come up. No drama.
Dealerships vary widely. Don't particularly like my local Honda dealership, so in 2022 I drove to the Honda dealership in Galveston Tx and had the best experience ever - with no MSRP markup nor any "required" dealership add-ons. But I agree that dealerships can be a big turn-off. I wish the manufacturers had more say in how the dealerships had to behave.
We bought a GTI after Honda dealership did not let us test drive and had a 7k markup. What a joke. The VW experience was much better and we even negotiated the price. The GTI is perfect for us so far. We also tested Mazda 3 Turbo and it was very nice, felt much nicer inside than the Si.
Local Honda dealers are still charging markup for a new Si. Honda is their own worst enemy with the Type-R and Si. Asked about the Type R just because, $15k over sticker still. So many other options available when you're talking $60k+ dollars.
And that’s why you see them still available on the market. The ones listed at $4K or $5K are gone within hours 😂 But if you’re ever bored on the toilet, shoot a message with a low lowball offer to make em mad 🤣
Factory tires are part of the package. I mind when reviewers swap tires like its nothing, but I wouldn't mind it nearly as much if they mentioned the cost. Especially if part of the advice is "swap the tires as soon as you buy it"
What's not being said: The bean-counter engineering running rampant throughout the automotive industry has basically ruined the party for ALL of these cars.
@@dantesinfernopurgatory7826 Honda particularly tho. The Type-R is also pretty pricy for a fwd car, it's just lucky the track performance and resale value is enough to justify it.
@@dantesinfernopurgatory7826correct. It's ruining it for all cars. The rampant use of haptics and screens... It's a race to the bottom and people are eating it up...sad.
Because I don’t want a huge triangle on the side of the car that is going to and already does now look absolutely ridiculous. Remodel the exterior of the Elantra and then we will talk.
@@krane15 These are commuter cars where most of the time there'd be 1 or 2 people at most in the car at the same time. Yes, Prius will get dinged for being smaller, but these are priced similarly and gets the same MPG. IMO that'd be a great comparison test.
$32k Civic SI is a joke. Way too much money for essentially a Civic with a LSD. That’s before having to deal with Honda stealerships that think they have gold
@@DragonKnightX12lol you are regurgitating Mazda marketing language. No. We had a Mazda6, and our Accord was more compliant and had less body roll, more predictable steering. 1.5T and the CVT was a bummer tho
Sad that both these cars recently lost their manuals on lower trims. Friend bought one of the last 2024 base 1.5t manual Jettas new. She LOVES that car, and for $1k under sticker it’s way good value.
The civic SI was great when they were $25k, truth is they are just slow for over $30k. They are a lot better with a tune but not everyone wants to mess with a gray area as far as warranty.
The Civic is a lot better to drive than comparables though. Clutch, steering, shifter are all super easy to use and the LSD feels great and puts the (small) power down. I went with a WRX instead, it is a lot less refined but the +75hp and AWD makes up for it.
I wanted a Si but the dealers made me absolutely hate the Honda Motor company because of how they made it seem sooooo exclusive with their upcharge and not even entertaining my interest without a non refundable deposit and a couple months wait. Absolutely horrendous. Ended up with a WRX
Great technical details. I wish Honda kept the 2.4 NA & put it in the SI. Very different from the type-R, different fans, no worry of cross pollination for the marketers & accountants! Amazing Jack stayed awake for the whole show. I know Jack uses 400 hp or less engine sounds as ASMR sleep aid.
The Si suffers from two glaring issues that aren’t mentioned in this video: the 1.5t reliability, and the dealerships If it were 10 years ago, the Honda might actually have been worth the markup much more reliable they were back then, especially compared to VW. Nowadays, that’s not so much the case. That 1.5 T has to be one of the worst engines they’ve ever made.
@@bryanauyeung9416 I understand the mechanical distinctions. My argument is that the Si is not a compelling offering among its competition and is not even the most compelling Civic option
200 from 1.5 isnt even crazy nowadays. My fiesta st mk8 also has a 1.5 3 cylinder with 200 hp. 100.000km and not a single thing wrong with it. To be fair it is a lighter car, so its probably not as often on full boost.
Thanks, for the review and comparison. Over 30 years ago I owned both a SI and GLI. Mine were a 90 Civic SI 3-door, and an 86 VW GLI. Both were great fun to drive and manuals. The Jetta was a great and fun young family car and boxy and held kids and lots of stuff. My wife was doing children's book fairs and it held tons of boxes of books. It's only drawback was it wasn't the most reliable car, but was easy to fix. The Civic SI was a great little car and fun to drive and got great gas mileage and simple. It even had manual non powered steering but came with a power moonroof. Love the hatchback and used the little package self as a field desk for work as a landscape designer. Love hatchbacks/3-5 doors and to this day prefer them over sedans. I kept the Civic SI for 10 years ant this day it's still my favorite of the cars I've owned. Thanks, again for your great channel.
The elephant in the room here is reliability and maintenance costs. I bought a brand new 2021 GTI and in the 3 years that I owned it I had a bad airbag module, cracked sunroof surround, a mysterious clunk from the front suspension, Infotainment that would randomly lose GPS signal, low coolant lights when the coolant was full... And ALL of these VW 2.0L turbos have coolant leak issues (to the point that there's class action lawsuits about it). My brand new car smelled like coolant after every drive. The dealer replaced the water pump under warranty but it still smelled after every drive. They eventually gave up and said that smelling like coolant was normal and refused to try to fix it. We also had a 2019 Golf wagon with a similar list of problems including the infamous unfixable sunroof leaks. Everyone told me VWs were unreliable but I said "Ahh, how bad could a brand new car be!" Well... It took me owning two of them to find out. Never again!
My wife has had two Audis with the 2.0T engine. Despite driving like a grandma and having all the maintenance done at the local Audi dealer ahead of schedule, BOTH had fairly catastrophic engine failure at about 80k miles. I have always liked VW and Audis, but won’t buy one again. I have owned six Mazdas and have never had a mechanical failure on any of them. Sadly, my Mazda3 hatchback recently lost an argument with a deer. From an outright speed perspective (and the rear suspension for that matter) a non-turbo Mazda3 manual wouldn’t really compete with these two cars, but as a very nice daily driver with hatchback capability it is a very pleasant place to spend time.
Fears over reliability put all VWs on the 'do not buy' list for my wife. This was after a friend ordered and bought a new Eos years ago, which was awful. I know they aren't all like that, and I've considered buying a GTI a couple times, but in the end I respect my wife and her wishes, even if it means never owning a GTI or GLI.
To be honest guys, coming from a Hyundai Kona N, I wanted a slightly less manic sedan - Enter the Elantra N Line. Other than having no limited slip, it’s sporty, fast, and returns almost 40mpg regularly on the highway. For me an easy winner over the civic si.
Do I spy (9:27) a ride height sensor on the driver's side? If so, does that mean VW's kept the AFS headlights despite the move from projector housings to reflectors?
3 години тому+2
agree I would get the VW Jetta GLI with the manual..
“I wish the Elantra N’s looked better.” THANK YOU for saying that. I thought I was the only one that didn’t want a giant triangle on the side of the car. Looks ridiculous.
I love your content and the chemistry between you two. Feels genuine. I also appreciate you taking the time to review cars on the less expensive side of the spectrum. Super entertaining to me. Happy Holidays! Your channel brightens my spirit throughout the year.
I wish the reviewers would focus a bit more on braking performance. Always some comment(s) about acceleration performance and then just ‘the brakes are average’ or ‘the brakes are great!’.
I've got 24k miles in my '23 Si, really happy to see this comparison video. I'm considering getting the updated Si when my warranty expires... seems likely that this will be my last new non-electric / non-hybrid car. Hoping that the manu's come up with a good successor.
@@KhanJoltrane A few reasons. Firstly, I hit a deer at about 10k and I'd rather have original body panels for a long-termer. Second, I don't expect the manual to be offered for much longer, and I want to get the latest model I can before it's discontinued. And thirdly, they did make a few refinements in the refresh that it would be nice to have.
Of course not. They're a lot more complex, and with each new innovation and accessories, you will increase the odd that something will fail. Judge relative reliability.
Wait. Mark said the cabin noise in the GLi is non existent and "destroys" the Civic noisy cabin, and then...Jack praises the superior noise suppression characteristics of the civic....WTF? Do you guys talk at all?
I love the Honda, but I couldn’t justify spending $31k on a Honda Civic before TTL, and potentially having to deal with a markup. Sure, I’ll acknowledge it as a great daily, but compared to the last Gen? I’m not understanding the price hike when the car started out less than $24k and had the features of an Integra A-Spec.
Most cars have gotten significantly more expensive the last several years, and the Civic is no exception. I would say look at the features and sticker prices of the non-hybrid Civics, and you'll see the Si is about halfway between the Sport and Sport Touring or Touring, and is also priced about halfway between them, too. But the Si is a better "driver's car" than any other Civic too (barring the Type R), and I think that's part of what you're paying for. Yes, I'm kind of biased because I bought one this past fall, but it is a genuinely fun and usable daily driver. I had a new Civic Sport Touring Hatchback before this, and by comparison the Si feels special. I've put 8,000 miles on mine already and I love it.
The reason I love you guys is that you are by far the most comprehensive car reviewers on UA-cam AND I still get to hear about Marks season ending hog-cranking injuries.
I enjoyed my 21 GLI manual. I live in your area and let’s be honest, you shoot on some of the very best roads we have around here, which is not saying much. What you need is power for the drag race down Randall or to pass 3 cars on 47. Unlike my CT4Vbw, I could just satifyingly beat the crap out of the GLI w/o being a felon. You can also work on your skills more in the GLI as it takes a lot of effort to get off corners quick and smoothly. The Caddy really doesn’t need me, it is amazing by itself. I might go back to a GLI and then get a C6z or C7 Z51 to go with it. Or an IS500/Miata combo. Merry Christmas Gents!
Please note I own a 25 Civic SI so this may be (or simply is) biased ... I've driven the GLI multiple times and think the SI is significantly better than the GLI here's why ... the GLI to me doesn't have the edgy feel of the SI ... the shifter is rubbery at best ... what kind of seats are those in the GLI??? where did they come from? a Passat? ... the price ... the depreciation ... and yes the GLI is faster but does anybody really care that it's a few tenths quicker to 60mph ... I know I don't .. but if you think spending thousand$ more to be a little quicker is ok then knock-yourself-out and go for it (not me though) ... Does 'SI' mean Sport Integrated? or does it simply[sic] mean 'SImple' ... which the Civic SI is? a simple throwback car from the 70s/80s ... few doodads few gizmos and thankfully no massaging seats ... a driver's car ... what's that well-worn expression ... it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow ... I've heard journalists complain that the SI looks like a Civic ... well duh! ... and that's the beauty of it ... remember the 'sleeper' muscle cars of the 60's ... a cheap sedan in which they stuffed a HEMI into ... I applaud Honda for removing all that silly-ass cladding from this generation of the SI ... how's that Steely Dan song 'HEY NINETEEN' go again ... Great Job as usual! ,,, Keith Algonquin IL
The Integra A spec can be purchased for $35K out the door as dealer volume inventory is greater than Civic Si in Honda dealerships. The A Spec is identical to SI in powertrain and driving experience, but interior and tech is better. The final consideration is durability of Honda/Acura is superior to any Volkswagen. The market sales tells you CIvic SI/A spec beats the GLI.
I ordered a 6 speed Integra when they announced them. Besides the dealer adding a mandatory 3.5K markup after promising me they wouldn't, I really couldn't understand why a Civic Hatchback has a rear wiper and the Integra does not. Also - no Homelink? I test drove the Integra and the GLI. I ended up buying neither. I liked the GLI better - but was afraid of how it would hold up over my expected 6+ years of ownership. Then they came out with the Integra Type S - and took away my other favorite option - the sunroof without adding either of the other 2.
Yeah this is just brand bias/loyalty nonsense. The civic SI has a weak power train. Both the clutch and engine cannot take more than 270 whp. It comes very very close to being maxed out from factory, and an engine with that little overhead is bound to have issues being pushed. Not to mention it's had regular engine issues like oil dilution. The ea888 in the gli is capable of huge power. Stock internals can take well over 500 whp. Maybe the tech and electronics will hold up better, but I'd be willing to bet that the engine and drive train will hold up better on the gli.
If I were to buy something else the Civic SI would be right up there for me. The fun to drive thing is more important that the additional power, and the manual puts it over the top for me.
I'm a big VW fan. The GLI is really refined with a nice quiet interior and better ride quality over the Civic. I'm glad to see they are still making the GTI and GLI in manual. For anyone driving in the mountains it's going to have to be the GLI.
I did when I purchased my ‘25. Went to the dealership a couple days after the ‘25 was announced, asked if they do markups/adjustments/packages and if they will be getting one in. They said they had one on order and would sell at msrp if I put down a deposit to hold it under my name. Pretty easy
Lots of laughs in both cars... They must be pretty good. Of note, a quick tune will get the GLI to ~300hp and still pass smog. Either way, fabulous presentation. thank you for this. Well Done.
I still have the 2013 Si I bought new, as a daily, and it’s been the best overall car I've had. I like the looks of the new one much better. The glaring issue is the 1.5l pisswheel motor they’re putting in it. I will never buy one of these... this thing should share the same 2.0 turbo that’s in the Accord. My 2013 gets to 60 in 6.1, and, even with over 200k miles, it still gets close to that. That’s almost A SECOND quicker than this new one, and it was $10k less, new. Honda is sticking it to their loyal customer base by hobbling the Si in order to keep it from creeping past the CTR with a couple mods, and that’s the unacceptable fact. My new daily will likely be a lightly used Accord 2.0t, with a manual. My summer car is a '24 Supra 3.0 manual, so i have no use for a CTR, plus my daily will beaten by the winters in NNY. If the Accord didn't offer a manual option, I'd be looking for a low mileage 2016 Si, since that was the last year with the 2.4l. I love the Honda manual. This car is a shame... sooo close, yet so far from what it should be.
Had a GLI that's a couple gens older for about a decade now... been a great car. Really feels like European luxury for less. Yeah you're giving up a few things relative to those cars, but not much. great value. Mine's been reliable too which I wasn't expecting given what everyone says about German vehicles. Regular maintenance does wonders.
I almost feel like the Acura Integra would’ve been the better comparison to the GLI for this test. I was cross shopping a Civic Si and Mk8 GTI when I found a lightly used manual Integra for less than a new Si. It was a no brainer for me, and I’ve really enjoyed the car so far.
Agree with Jack on the Civic Hybrid. I had the chance to buy a 2024 Civic SI but instead chose the Integra. GLI would of been interesting to consider but I wanted longevity. The hybrid wasn't out yet.
I wanted a Civic SI, but ended up buying an Integra A-Spec Tech MT as the SI was marked up to $40k USD everywhere. Are reviewers blind to the markup???? For $4k LESS, I got adaptive dampers, power pleather seats w/memory, HUD, better sound system, AND a hatchback like the SI SHOULD have. I do wish the engine had more power, but love it regardless.
I can’t believe how many people are saying there were mark ups on Civic Si. I’d go Civic Si… I always have liked the GLI but you can tell now VW isn’t paying attention to it as much as they used to. It’s still a sharp car. However if I really had to pick I’d probably go with the Integra and get the manual in the A-Spec trim.
Ever since I put Bridgestone Potenza's on my Civic Si and GLI's, I have been dominating my local street shutdowns. Discount Tire has asked me to hide the label on my tires because they keep selling out and can't keep up with demand.
I have a 24 Si with a few mods, what a car! 18x9.5 wheels with Conti ECS 02s, tune, intake, downpipe, exhaust. Fabulous!!! Wheels pulled 56 lbs out of the car and another 10 or so out of the exhaust put the car into the 2,800 lb range with 240whp. Combine that with a fabulous chassis and up to 40mpg, a long with awesome resell value. Big win.
The Honda 1.5 turbo was built with economy in mind (low friction components, low compression piston rings, etc). The 2.0 Turbo engines from Honda, VW, Hyundai are built specifically with performance in mind.
I have a 23 si and my wife has a 22 gli. Canadian models. Her gli is nice for ling drives. The si while not as powerful is much more fun on twist roads. The gli's tires are a crime against the whole genre it feels like a minivan in the corners.
GLIs fatal flaws are the clutch when tuned if you get a manual, and timing chain tensioners can stretch at higher mileage if you don’t change the oil early. That can blow up the motor. Also the water pumps can fail. The Si 1.5 has similar issues but also have oil dilution issues that can blow up the motor, clutches go out if you tune it. Both are turbo motors, both will have have carbon issues. They’ll be about the same.
There is no way in hell you can get those engines past an EPA regulation in 2024. Not only are they poor on fuel economy, they also put out a lot of particles. Amazing engines performance wise, but not environmentally friendly.
Can you guys please do a longer term review of the face lifted EN? Just to see how the car performs in snow and daily duty? The facelifted EN in particular has significantly greater range of shock adjustment, and can go much softer in it's soft suspension. With adaptive suspension and different drive modes, how much are you really losing in terms of daily driver ability with the EN over these two? They have slightly nicer touch points, while the EN has nicer seats, steering wheel, tech, infotainment, and legroom. In terms of performance they get blown away. I'm sure they would be more comfortable too Imo cars like the gli and si are out of place. I'd rather have a real entry level luxury boat (used 330i/340i) and all the comforts that come with it, or a more hardcore driver's car. But that's also because i can only own one car. Paying $35k usd for a new "sport injected" car didn't seem appealing to me
Never understood how Honda couldn’t justify putting a detuned CTR engine with like 240 HP/ 260 tq, and even the option for a 10 speed that shifts quickly or a DCT, would’ve been the perfect balance and raise the price by 5k more people would be much happier
A $600 off the shelf software tune for the GLI gets you to 315hp/315tq. And I'm sure a bunch of people will whine "but it can't put the power down wahhhhh" - but you're not buying this car to drag race. The huge low torque you get with that will make it an absolute blast in normal driving. The little 2/3 throttle stabs you make in traffic around town, roll-on merging and passing, all that will be incredible and traction won't be an issue. Bummer about the audio. My '19 Alltrack SEL with the "Fender" labeled Panasonic sound system sounds fantastic. All that being said, I see zero reason to buy either of these over a GTI, unless you just insist on a sedan.
Well I am also a Honda Civic Si 10th Gen owner. I also have to say this. I don't want to be a blunder with bad news, but Honda/Acura have several recalls on several models. Although, VW is unreliable. Keep all th😊at in mind.
Civic SI looks better this gen. If you can afford a GTI that has the EA888 Gen 4 motor that has a turbo with a lot more potential than the EA888 Gen 3 variant is in this GLI
Good noise insulation goes a LONG way in making a car a good cruiser. My Elantra N has a stiff ride but not a big issue, and not much worse that the ride of our Acura. What's worse is the noise, and its something you can literally do nothing about it. The best way to fix this is to just add some sound deadening in the body panels and wheel wells especially.
People aren't really cross-shopping the Civic Si and the hybrid right? Everyone is so focused on 0-60 times, which have no bearing on real world drivability. Those are 2 completely different cars that *should be* for different audiences. As far as Si vs GLI, it comes down to personal preference. A GLI with a DSG will be compelling to some but the Si driving experience with the manual is hard to beat at this price point (especially with strong resale value). Yeah, these cars should be cheaper - so should everything else in the world.
Quite frankly, if I were in the market for either of these cars, I wouldn’t buy any of them. I would save up the extra money and go Civic Type R or Golf R. For the record I own a 2024 Acura Integra Type S.
It's not that it can't do 6/700. It can't even do 300 lmao. Literally no point in going stuffed or big turbo on that platform. It can't take much more than the limits of its tiny stock turbo. The ea888 is capable of big power. Almost all the enthusiast cars at this price point can make big power on stock internals quite easily, besides the 86 and si.
Reviewers: "The Civic Si drives and feels like a much more expensive car"
Dealerships: "I can fix that"
Dick Brooks Honda in Greer, South Carolina is not doing markups. Thought I’d drop their name for being on the few not doing that nonsense.
LMFAOO real
In my area, pretty much all Si's are slapped with a $5000 market adjustment, making them more expensive than an Elantra N. So disappointing to see.
This was the exact reason why I ended up getting the 2024 Integra A-Spec 6MT. Ended up getting it at a discount, too.
Agree. More limited supply for SI so dealer markup is the norm.
I chose between these two in 2023. Turned out to be an easy choice due to Honda dealers being corrupt. I bought an 08 Si new and thought I'd like to get a new gen as a commuter. Dealers wanted non refundable deposits before test drive, and then expected to sell with a markup. VW experience was worlds better and I've been happy with my GLI.
I test drove a GLI - and I liked it. I was hesitant to buy it though. Is it holding up nicely?
In Alberta, all deposits on new vehicles are fully refundable by law.
This is exactly something the reviewers never can compare, although both have similar experiences. But if Honda don't want to sell, at least they are upfront with it.
Miss the old days, bought my 2020 Si, all I had to do was call the dealer and said I was serious about buying. We agreed on the price and they held the car for me until I could come up. No drama.
Dealerships vary widely. Don't particularly like my local Honda dealership, so in 2022 I drove to the Honda dealership in Galveston Tx and had the best experience ever - with no MSRP markup nor any "required" dealership add-ons.
But I agree that dealerships can be a big turn-off. I wish the manufacturers had more say in how the dealerships had to behave.
We bought a GTI after Honda dealership did not let us test drive and had a 7k markup. What a joke. The VW experience was much better and we even negotiated the price. The GTI is perfect for us so far. We also tested Mazda 3 Turbo and it was very nice, felt much nicer inside than the Si.
The Mazda is lightyears beyond in terms of refinement for sure.
Never pay over MSRP for any car. If you do, you're a sucker.
@@thescavwithnothingtolose1224in what aspect? Vw has been doing budget luxury for decades. lightyears ahead is exaggerated imo
Local Honda dealers are still charging markup for a new Si. Honda is their own worst enemy with the Type-R and Si. Asked about the Type R just because, $15k over sticker still. So many other options available when you're talking $60k+ dollars.
Dealers can "charge" anything they want for a car. It's the consumer that has to be smart enough not to pay it. Never pay over MSRP for any car.
Just imagine paying $60k (plus taxes, fees, etc.) for a civic!!
How dumb are you going to feel…
"strong residual values" is an understatement, where I'm located, 8th and 9th gen civic si's with 200k miles are still going for 8k......
Lol they smokin crack
Very true, VW very different story
And that’s why you see them still available on the market. The ones listed at $4K or $5K are gone within hours 😂 But if you’re ever bored on the toilet, shoot a message with a low lowball offer to make em mad 🤣
Overpriced plastic
Only 8k? Not the bay area lmao
Thank you for putting them on the same tires. The factory tires on the GLI are miserably bad, and really hold it back.
Factory tires are part of the package. I mind when reviewers swap tires like its nothing, but I wouldn't mind it nearly as much if they mentioned the cost. Especially if part of the advice is "swap the tires as soon as you buy it"
@@Mealsandwheelsagreed. Factors into total cost of ownership too
Nothing more exciting than a Civic in primer paint and black hole wheels.
I agree. I think the Elantra N has basically ruined the party for both these cars.
What's not being said: The bean-counter engineering running rampant throughout the automotive industry has basically ruined the party for ALL of these cars.
@@dantesinfernopurgatory7826 Honda particularly tho. The Type-R is also pretty pricy for a fwd car, it's just lucky the track performance and resale value is enough to justify it.
Its just so fugly. I couldn't look at it daily...
@@dantesinfernopurgatory7826correct. It's ruining it for all cars. The rampant use of haptics and screens... It's a race to the bottom and people are eating it up...sad.
@@smokesgtp Bean-counter engineering in a nutshell: Cost-cutting sold for a king's ransom.
Best car review channel on UA-cam
by FAR
they've been that way for years now
But we want Turbowski back
Hands down!
Don't know why you'd ever get an Si when the Elantra N exists.
diff price
Dealership experience alone is thrilling, like a murder mystery novel.
Interior, reliability, residuals, practicality, fuel economy; doesn’t look like an alien
Because I don’t want a huge triangle on the side of the car that is going to and already does now look absolutely ridiculous. Remodel the exterior of the Elantra and then we will talk.
“Understeer me off this road” 😂
Roots. Good stuff guys. Thank you as always.
Civic hybrid vs Prius would be a good video
Compact vs sub compact? No.
@@krane15 These are commuter cars where most of the time there'd be 1 or 2 people at most in the car at the same time. Yes, Prius will get dinged for being smaller, but these are priced similarly and gets the same MPG. IMO that'd be a great comparison test.
@@krane15the Prius is not a sub-compact ☠️☠️☠️
I realize this channel has a Honda Bias, but the GLI and GTI are very underrated cars in the USA. Sad Truth.
Please go buy a GLI or GTI, folks. Help us save these wonderful cars.
$32k Civic SI is a joke. Way too much money for essentially a Civic with a LSD. That’s before having to deal with Honda stealerships that think they have gold
That's Mazda3 Turbo hatch money
@@singular9 But the 3 turbo doesn't have a manual and has a torsion beam rear suspension.
@@Love2Cruise Yea but you have a torquey turbo engine with AWD and far nicer interior. And Mazda makes everything they make fun to drive.
@@DragonKnightX12 the civic will be better driving in pretty much every way.
@@DragonKnightX12lol you are regurgitating Mazda marketing language. No. We had a Mazda6, and our Accord was more compliant and had less body roll, more predictable steering. 1.5T and the CVT was a bummer tho
Sad that both these cars recently lost their manuals on lower trims. Friend bought one of the last 2024 base 1.5t manual Jettas new. She LOVES that car, and for $1k under sticker it’s way good value.
It's because no one is buying the manual in the base version, even the Civic Sport Hatchback lost its manual option this year.
The civic SI was great when they were $25k, truth is they are just slow for over $30k. They are a lot better with a tune but not everyone wants to mess with a gray area as far as warranty.
My AWD hatch Mazda3 Turbo cost me 30k otd. It smokes the GTI let alone gli and si
And it has as many features as a Lexus.
@@singular9 Torsion beam rear... not even once.
@@singular9 The back of the m3 hatch is seriously ugly. Looks like a squished van from the 00s and doesn't match how good the front looks.
The Civic is a lot better to drive than comparables though. Clutch, steering, shifter are all super easy to use and the LSD feels great and puts the (small) power down. I went with a WRX instead, it is a lot less refined but the +75hp and AWD makes up for it.
@@squidikkathat back, particularly with the performance spoiler is perfection
Laughing my ass off you guys are the best always appreciate your content
I wanted a Si but the dealers made me absolutely hate the Honda Motor company because of how they made it seem sooooo exclusive with their upcharge and not even entertaining my interest without a non refundable deposit and a couple months wait. Absolutely horrendous. Ended up with a WRX
Great technical details.
I wish Honda kept the 2.4 NA & put it in the SI. Very different from the type-R, different fans, no worry of cross pollination for the marketers & accountants!
Amazing Jack stayed awake for the whole show. I know Jack uses 400 hp or less engine sounds as ASMR sleep aid.
The Si suffers from two glaring issues that aren’t mentioned in this video: the 1.5t reliability, and the dealerships
If it were 10 years ago, the Honda might actually have been worth the markup much more reliable they were back then, especially compared to VW. Nowadays, that’s not so much the case. That 1.5 T has to be one of the worst engines they’ve ever made.
The Civic Si hasn't been compelling since they put their 1.5t that is already tuned to 11. The Civic hybrid is a far more appealing offering.
Its actually not tuned to 11, it just has a shitty intercooler.
the LSD, manual trans, sport seats and handling is what defines the Si. Yes the hybrid makes more power but it’s not as fun to drive
@@bryanauyeung9416 I understand the mechanical distinctions. My argument is that the Si is not a compelling offering among its competition and is not even the most compelling Civic option
200 from 1.5 isnt even crazy nowadays. My fiesta st mk8 also has a 1.5 3 cylinder with 200 hp. 100.000km and not a single thing wrong with it.
To be fair it is a lighter car, so its probably not as often on full boost.
No way I'm going to sleep behind the wheel of a CVT hybrid power train if I'm in the market for a dynamic compact with a manual.
Thanks, for the review and comparison.
Over 30 years ago I owned both a SI and GLI. Mine were a 90 Civic SI 3-door, and an 86 VW GLI. Both were great fun to drive and manuals.
The Jetta was a great and fun young family car and boxy and held kids and lots of stuff. My wife was doing children's book fairs and it held tons of boxes of books. It's only drawback was it wasn't the most reliable car, but was easy to fix.
The Civic SI was a great little car and fun to drive and got great gas mileage and simple. It even had manual non powered steering but came with a power moonroof. Love the hatchback and used the little package self as a field desk for work as a landscape designer. Love hatchbacks/3-5 doors and to this day prefer them over sedans. I kept the Civic SI for 10 years ant this day it's still my favorite of the cars I've owned.
Thanks, again for your great channel.
The elephant in the room here is reliability and maintenance costs. I bought a brand new 2021 GTI and in the 3 years that I owned it I had a bad airbag module, cracked sunroof surround, a mysterious clunk from the front suspension, Infotainment that would randomly lose GPS signal, low coolant lights when the coolant was full... And ALL of these VW 2.0L turbos have coolant leak issues (to the point that there's class action lawsuits about it). My brand new car smelled like coolant after every drive. The dealer replaced the water pump under warranty but it still smelled after every drive. They eventually gave up and said that smelling like coolant was normal and refused to try to fix it. We also had a 2019 Golf wagon with a similar list of problems including the infamous unfixable sunroof leaks. Everyone told me VWs were unreliable but I said "Ahh, how bad could a brand new car be!" Well... It took me owning two of them to find out. Never again!
I had a 2019 35th Anniversary Edition GLI. It was flawless for the 4 years I had it.
My wife has had two Audis with the 2.0T engine. Despite driving like a grandma and having all the maintenance done at the local Audi dealer ahead of schedule, BOTH had fairly catastrophic engine failure at about 80k miles. I have always liked VW and Audis, but won’t buy one again. I have owned six Mazdas and have never had a mechanical failure on any of them. Sadly, my Mazda3 hatchback recently lost an argument with a deer.
From an outright speed perspective (and the rear suspension for that matter) a non-turbo Mazda3 manual wouldn’t really compete with these two cars, but as a very nice daily driver with hatchback capability it is a very pleasant place to spend time.
Fears over reliability put all VWs on the 'do not buy' list for my wife. This was after a friend ordered and bought a new Eos years ago, which was awful. I know they aren't all like that, and I've considered buying a GTI a couple times, but in the end I respect my wife and her wishes, even if it means never owning a GTI or GLI.
The exterior of the current gen Civic has a very timeless look that will age extremely well. Very clear when you see it in person.
Absolutely! Just wish they were more affordable and that 1.5 liter four is stupid.
@@dcarts5616yeah… it should really be a detuned / smaller turbo K20.
I went with Mk8 GTI. Manual, more power and a hatch!!
GLI would get my vote. Been eyeing them for a couple years.
To be honest guys, coming from a Hyundai Kona N, I wanted a slightly less manic sedan - Enter the Elantra N Line. Other than having no limited slip, it’s sporty, fast, and returns almost 40mpg regularly on the highway. For me an easy winner over the civic si.
Do I spy (9:27) a ride height sensor on the driver's side? If so, does that mean VW's kept the AFS headlights despite the move from projector housings to reflectors?
agree I would get the VW Jetta GLI with the manual..
I still feel like a 3 or4 year old accord touring or sport with the 2.0 and low miles is a better value.
Good use of sponsor's tires. #Bridgestone
The Jetta's engine is in my Atlas. I'd definitely mod it to get the most out of it since it can handle it😂
An SI or Integra “GSR” with the 2.0T from the Accord is what the masses want, Honda.
Honda: We don't care
Always happy to see you love Cake, too 😊
“I wish the Elantra N’s looked better.” THANK YOU for saying that. I thought I was the only one that didn’t want a giant triangle on the side of the car. Looks ridiculous.
I love your content and the chemistry between you two. Feels genuine. I also appreciate you taking the time to review cars on the less expensive side of the spectrum. Super entertaining to me. Happy Holidays! Your channel brightens my spirit throughout the year.
Miss my VR6 GLI!!
hell yes
I owned one for 3 years, such a fun car
This, x100.
I wish the reviewers would focus a bit more on braking performance.
Always some comment(s) about acceleration performance and then just ‘the brakes are average’ or ‘the brakes are great!’.
I've got 24k miles in my '23 Si, really happy to see this comparison video. I'm considering getting the updated Si when my warranty expires... seems likely that this will be my last new non-electric / non-hybrid car. Hoping that the manu's come up with a good successor.
Once the si’s warranty is up is when it gets fun, you can get a good bit more power out of the 1.5 engines without much worry
Why would you get a reliable car just to get rid of it when the warranty is up? Repairs are cheaper than a car anyway
@@KhanJoltrane A few reasons. Firstly, I hit a deer at about 10k and I'd rather have original body panels for a long-termer. Second, I don't expect the manual to be offered for much longer, and I want to get the latest model I can before it's discontinued. And thirdly, they did make a few refinements in the refresh that it would be nice to have.
sadly Honda is not the reliable car company like they were in the past.
Pretty much goes for everyone
Of course not. They're a lot more complex, and with each new innovation and accessories, you will increase the odd that something will fail. Judge relative reliability.
Wait until they merge with Nissan 😅
I wish the Si had different interior options. The red is a bit much and comes across as pink in some lighting. Difficult to get past.
Not really. It’s pretty subtle overall
The Civic SI is still a hard sale considering the Elentra N (or even a used certified Stinger).
It's Elantra N vs Mazda3 Turbo for me. Way more premium and about the same price.
Agreed. Current gen Mazda3 is gorgeous imo. Plus awd option.
Except the Elantra N is hideous.
The stinger was such a gem
@@NomenClature-o8s Looks are subjective.
Wait. Mark said the cabin noise in the GLi is non existent and "destroys" the Civic noisy cabin, and then...Jack praises the superior noise suppression characteristics of the civic....WTF? Do you guys talk at all?
Yeah exactly. The VW has a significantly lower noise floor. It’s obvious when you drive them back to back
I’ve heard many reports of the civic being quite loud on the inside, especially the hatchback
Mark is right and Jack is glazing Honda
I suspect that’s Honda press material comparing the old civic to the new one not the GLI to the SI
@@aygwm And I believe the SI also doesn't have any sound deadening materials at all.
I love the Honda, but I couldn’t justify spending $31k on a Honda Civic before TTL, and potentially having to deal with a markup. Sure, I’ll acknowledge it as a great daily, but compared to the last Gen? I’m not understanding the price hike when the car started out less than $24k and had the features of an Integra A-Spec.
Most cars have gotten significantly more expensive the last several years, and the Civic is no exception. I would say look at the features and sticker prices of the non-hybrid Civics, and you'll see the Si is about halfway between the Sport and Sport Touring or Touring, and is also priced about halfway between them, too. But the Si is a better "driver's car" than any other Civic too (barring the Type R), and I think that's part of what you're paying for. Yes, I'm kind of biased because I bought one this past fall, but it is a genuinely fun and usable daily driver. I had a new Civic Sport Touring Hatchback before this, and by comparison the Si feels special. I've put 8,000 miles on mine already and I love it.
Those haptic feedback buttons on the GLI need to GO! Be gone! Away! Nowwwww!
The reason I love you guys is that you are by far the most comprehensive car reviewers on UA-cam AND I still get to hear about Marks season ending hog-cranking injuries.
I enjoyed my 21 GLI manual. I live in your area and let’s be honest, you shoot on some of the very best roads we have around here, which is not saying much. What you need is power for the drag race down Randall or to pass 3 cars on 47. Unlike my CT4Vbw, I could just satifyingly beat the crap out of the GLI w/o being a felon. You can also work on your skills more in the GLI as it takes a lot of effort to get off corners quick and smoothly. The Caddy really doesn’t need me, it is amazing by itself. I might go back to a GLI and then get a C6z or C7 Z51 to go with it. Or an IS500/Miata combo. Merry Christmas Gents!
Jack: The Civic Si gets a heated steering wheel in Canada, but not in the U.S.
DJT: Canada will be the 51st state!
Nothing funny about fascists joking about annexing their neighbours.
Please note I own a 25 Civic SI so this may be (or simply is) biased ... I've driven the GLI multiple times and think the SI is significantly better than the GLI here's why ... the GLI to me doesn't have the edgy feel of the SI ... the shifter is rubbery at best ... what kind of seats are those in the GLI??? where did they come from? a Passat? ... the price ... the depreciation ... and yes the GLI is faster but does anybody really care that it's a few tenths quicker to 60mph ... I know I don't .. but if you think spending thousand$ more to be a little quicker is ok then knock-yourself-out and go for it (not me though) ...
Does 'SI' mean Sport Integrated? or does it simply[sic] mean 'SImple' ... which the Civic SI is? a simple throwback car from the 70s/80s ... few doodads few gizmos and thankfully no massaging seats ... a driver's car ... what's that well-worn expression ... it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow ... I've heard journalists complain that the SI looks like a Civic ... well duh! ... and that's the beauty of it ... remember the 'sleeper' muscle cars of the 60's ... a cheap sedan in which they stuffed a HEMI into ... I applaud Honda for removing all that silly-ass cladding from this generation of the SI ... how's that Steely Dan song 'HEY NINETEEN' go again ... Great Job as usual! ,,, Keith Algonquin IL
The Integra A spec can be purchased for $35K out the door as dealer volume inventory is greater than Civic Si in Honda dealerships. The A Spec is identical to SI in powertrain and driving experience, but interior and tech is better. The final consideration is durability of Honda/Acura is superior to any Volkswagen. The market sales tells you CIvic SI/A spec beats the GLI.
I ordered a 6 speed Integra when they announced them. Besides the dealer adding a mandatory 3.5K markup after promising me they wouldn't, I really couldn't understand why a Civic Hatchback has a rear wiper and the Integra does not. Also - no Homelink? I test drove the Integra and the GLI. I ended up buying neither. I liked the GLI better - but was afraid of how it would hold up over my expected 6+ years of ownership. Then they came out with the Integra Type S - and took away my other favorite option - the sunroof without adding either of the other 2.
For a new one? I did find some used ones for under 30k.
Yeah this is just brand bias/loyalty nonsense. The civic SI has a weak power train. Both the clutch and engine cannot take more than 270 whp. It comes very very close to being maxed out from factory, and an engine with that little overhead is bound to have issues being pushed. Not to mention it's had regular engine issues like oil dilution.
The ea888 in the gli is capable of huge power. Stock internals can take well over 500 whp. Maybe the tech and electronics will hold up better, but I'd be willing to bet that the engine and drive train will hold up better on the gli.
If I were to buy something else the Civic SI would be right up there for me. The fun to drive thing is more important that the additional power, and the manual puts it over the top for me.
GLI has a PDK transmission option which is great compromise if you drive in traffic.
It's called DSG in this flavour. Wish I was in a tax bracket to say PDK
Also the gearing is much shorter than the manual GLI, and shifting is much faster than the rev-hanging manual.
I'm a big VW fan. The GLI is really refined with a nice quiet interior and better ride quality over the Civic. I'm glad to see they are still making the GTI and GLI in manual. For anyone driving in the mountains it's going to have to be the GLI.
No GTI manual anymore
Anyone find any dealership not charging mark up for an Si? Seems impossible.
I did when I purchased my ‘25. Went to the dealership a couple days after the ‘25 was announced, asked if they do markups/adjustments/packages and if they will be getting one in. They said they had one on order and would sell at msrp if I put down a deposit to hold it under my name. Pretty easy
Lots of laughs in both cars... They must be pretty good.
Of note, a quick tune will get the GLI to ~300hp and still pass smog.
Either way, fabulous presentation. thank you for this.
Well Done.
I still have the 2013 Si I bought new, as a daily, and it’s been the best overall car I've had. I like the looks of the new one much better. The glaring issue is the 1.5l pisswheel motor they’re putting in it. I will never buy one of these... this thing should share the same 2.0 turbo that’s in the Accord. My 2013 gets to 60 in 6.1, and, even with over 200k miles, it still gets close to that. That’s almost A SECOND quicker than this new one, and it was $10k less, new. Honda is sticking it to their loyal customer base by hobbling the Si in order to keep it from creeping past the CTR with a couple mods, and that’s the unacceptable fact. My new daily will likely be a lightly used Accord 2.0t, with a manual. My summer car is a '24 Supra 3.0 manual, so i have no use for a CTR, plus my daily will beaten by the winters in NNY. If the Accord didn't offer a manual option, I'd be looking for a low mileage 2016 Si, since that was the last year with the 2.4l. I love the Honda manual. This car is a shame... sooo close, yet so far from what it should be.
Had a GLI that's a couple gens older for about a decade now... been a great car. Really feels like European luxury for less. Yeah you're giving up a few things relative to those cars, but not much. great value. Mine's been reliable too which I wasn't expecting given what everyone says about German vehicles. Regular maintenance does wonders.
Both of these should be no more than 25k fully loaded out the door. What the heck is happening a freaking civic for 30k and a Jetta for 35k? Madness!
It's hard to find a used Si for that price.
Thanks you Mark and Jack. Grrat editing as always
Hondas once reliable cars have fallen below VW who would have thought...
According to what source? I know Honda's reliability has fallen off but I didn't think they were worse than VW.
@@rhythm_is_life Yea idk about that one according to consumer reports Honda is #4 while VW is #18.
You guys NEED to do a golf GTI review for me
I almost feel like the Acura Integra would’ve been the better comparison to the GLI for this test. I was cross shopping a Civic Si and Mk8 GTI when I found a lightly used manual Integra for less than a new Si. It was a no brainer for me, and I’ve really enjoyed the car so far.
Civic is the recall king and now part of nissan
I don't hear this being talked about enough. I was interested in the Civic hybrid until it got recalled twice within a month of its release.
@ all that pro honda youtubers are like paid advertisements
lol That crown belongs to Ford. And it's more the other way around, because it wasn't Honda that as about to go bankrupt.
Agree with Jack on the Civic Hybrid. I had the chance to buy a 2024 Civic SI but instead chose the Integra. GLI would of been interesting to consider but I wanted longevity. The hybrid wasn't out yet.
I wanted a Civic SI, but ended up buying an Integra A-Spec Tech MT as the SI was marked up to $40k USD everywhere. Are reviewers blind to the markup???? For $4k LESS, I got adaptive dampers, power pleather seats w/memory, HUD, better sound system, AND a hatchback like the SI SHOULD have. I do wish the engine had more power, but love it regardless.
I can’t believe how many people are saying there were mark ups on Civic Si. I’d go Civic Si… I always have liked the GLI but you can tell now VW isn’t paying attention to it as much as they used to. It’s still a sharp car. However if I really had to pick I’d probably go with the Integra and get the manual in the A-Spec trim.
Review the older vehicles ... Let's remember how fun cars used to be
Ever since I put Bridgestone Potenza's on my Civic Si and GLI's, I have been dominating my local street shutdowns. Discount Tire has asked me to hide the label on my tires because they keep selling out and can't keep up with demand.
God bless.
I wanna see Savagegeese toss the Forte GT in the mix in these types of reviews so badly
Also wild that Honda copied the old Jetta with its styling and no one says it
10:35 Is that paint worn off the GLI already?
I have a 24 Si with a few mods, what a car!
18x9.5 wheels with Conti ECS 02s, tune, intake, downpipe, exhaust. Fabulous!!! Wheels pulled 56 lbs out of the car and another 10 or so out of the exhaust put the car into the 2,800 lb range with 240whp. Combine that with a fabulous chassis and up to 40mpg, a long with awesome resell value. Big win.
Between the GLI and the Mazda 3 turbo?
Civic si is 50 hp from greatness and that’s really it it does everything else well best shift box in the game up there with Porsche
I’m just happy to know I’m not the only one that scuffs my Pumas on the door when getting out of my car
The Honda 1.5 turbo was built with economy in mind (low friction components, low compression piston rings, etc). The 2.0 Turbo engines from Honda, VW, Hyundai are built specifically with performance in mind.
I have a 23 si and my wife has a 22 gli. Canadian models. Her gli is nice for ling drives. The si while not as powerful is much more fun on twist roads. The gli's tires are a crime against the whole genre it feels like a minivan in the corners.
I'm glad Mark is cranking his hog
What about reliability and long term ownership expenses of these two?
GLIs fatal flaws are the clutch when tuned if you get a manual, and timing chain tensioners can stretch at higher mileage if you don’t change the oil early. That can blow up the motor. Also the water pumps can fail. The Si 1.5 has similar issues but also have oil dilution issues that can blow up the motor, clutches go out if you tune it. Both are turbo motors, both will have have carbon issues. They’ll be about the same.
You didn't watch the video? Mark state that as the reason he chose the Civic.
Maybe the "dealership experience" will be what Nissan brings to the Honda-Nissan merger.... 🤔
You should also compare the automatic version of GLI against the Civic Hybrid since hybrid now makes comparable power figures
Honda is going to want a kidney for it
That 1.5 is a bullshit engine to put in a Civic SI... A K20/24 was such a better engine!
There is no way in hell you can get those engines past an EPA regulation in 2024. Not only are they poor on fuel economy, they also put out a lot of particles.
Amazing engines performance wise, but not environmentally friendly.
Can you guys please do a longer term review of the face lifted EN?
Just to see how the car performs in snow and daily duty? The facelifted EN in particular has significantly greater range of shock adjustment, and can go much softer in it's soft suspension.
With adaptive suspension and different drive modes, how much are you really losing in terms of daily driver ability with the EN over these two? They have slightly nicer touch points, while the EN has nicer seats, steering wheel, tech, infotainment, and legroom. In terms of performance they get blown away. I'm sure they would be more comfortable too
Imo cars like the gli and si are out of place. I'd rather have a real entry level luxury boat (used 330i/340i) and all the comforts that come with it, or a more hardcore driver's car. But that's also because i can only own one car. Paying $35k usd for a new "sport injected" car didn't seem appealing to me
Our pa chris just bought a 25
Honda quality cant ne beat, but a GLI blows the doors off a civic si 😂
Pretty sure summer tires are no longer an option on the Civic, like at all. But on that, did the updated tires limit the NVH on the Civic?
Never stop doing what y'all are doing, you guys are top notch
Never understood how Honda couldn’t justify putting a detuned CTR engine with like 240 HP/ 260 tq, and even the option for a 10 speed that shifts quickly or a DCT, would’ve been the perfect balance and raise the price by 5k more people would be much happier
@20:23 diddy say, can't stop won't stop???😂
A $600 off the shelf software tune for the GLI gets you to 315hp/315tq. And I'm sure a bunch of people will whine "but it can't put the power down wahhhhh" - but you're not buying this car to drag race. The huge low torque you get with that will make it an absolute blast in normal driving. The little 2/3 throttle stabs you make in traffic around town, roll-on merging and passing, all that will be incredible and traction won't be an issue. Bummer about the audio. My '19 Alltrack SEL with the "Fender" labeled Panasonic sound system sounds fantastic. All that being said, I see zero reason to buy either of these over a GTI, unless you just insist on a sedan.
The new 2025 GLI redesign has a significantly better exterior, but an inferior interior compared to prior gen
Well I am also a Honda Civic Si 10th Gen owner. I also have to say this. I don't want to be a blunder with bad news, but Honda/Acura have several recalls on several models. Although, VW is unreliable. Keep all th😊at in mind.
A manual transmission is only as fun as the engine it’s mated to.
A 1.5L turbo w/ a manual just sounds like an added penalty.
Civic SI looks better this gen. If you can afford a GTI that has the EA888 Gen 4 motor that has a turbo with a lot more potential than the EA888 Gen 3 variant is in this GLI
Having owned an Accord and civic recently I don’t understand how Honda can’t fix the road noise and punishing seats.
Good noise insulation goes a LONG way in making a car a good cruiser. My Elantra N has a stiff ride but not a big issue, and not much worse that the ride of our Acura. What's worse is the noise, and its something you can literally do nothing about it. The best way to fix this is to just add some sound deadening in the body panels and wheel wells especially.
People aren't really cross-shopping the Civic Si and the hybrid right? Everyone is so focused on 0-60 times, which have no bearing on real world drivability. Those are 2 completely different cars that *should be* for different audiences.
As far as Si vs GLI, it comes down to personal preference. A GLI with a DSG will be compelling to some but the Si driving experience with the manual is hard to beat at this price point (especially with strong resale value). Yeah, these cars should be cheaper - so should everything else in the world.
Quite frankly, if I were in the market for either of these cars, I wouldn’t buy any of them. I would save up the extra money and go Civic Type R or Golf R. For the record I own a 2024 Acura Integra Type S.
The K series platform really spoiled us in the honda community. The L15 isnt garbage just because it cant do 6/700 on a stock block.
It's not that it can't do 6/700. It can't even do 300 lmao.
Literally no point in going stuffed or big turbo on that platform. It can't take much more than the limits of its tiny stock turbo.
The ea888 is capable of big power. Almost all the enthusiast cars at this price point can make big power on stock internals quite easily, besides the 86 and si.
The Jetta is NOT quieter. You didn't include the driver screaming when they try to use the shi--y capacitance controls. Advantage Civic.
😂