I talk about tropes that I like to use, or more specifically, how I like to use them. Videos that I reference: Bored Now...: • Bored Now... Sequels: • Sequels
I immensely enjoy in Morrowind how they approached idea of player being a reincarnation of hero, who came to save everybody. Game doesn't actually have any definitive proof of that, half of story is you basically fabricating circumstances to fit into prophecy and what's most fun is nobody around actually cares. They have tough lives to live and don't have time for "heroes", and player often plays a role of sucker they found to unload their dirty work to, rather than hero returned to save the day.
@@mementomori771 I think that's just out of convenience to get advantage of you for personal needs. Final vibe check is when before final fight Dagoth Ur, despite coming in your dreams, asks you - hey fella, how do you think, are you really Nerevar reborn? And you can answer "Dunno, man" or "I'm just me" if you want. Azura pointed her finger at you and called you Nerevarine, but to achieve her goals through you. Tribunal is no different.
@blacxthornE Thanks the Michael Kirkbride, its a shame he left shortly after Morrowind shipped would have been interesting to see what became of Bethesda if he stayed.
It's also fascinating when the subversion of a trope becomes the new trope. The example of this i love is evil Superman stories were rampant for a few years and it became stale fast with the exception of Homelander.
I mean Invincible handled it pretty well too. Like Tim said, as long as the game/movie/show is doing something original and interesting, who cares if it's a trope or not.
I really like the idea of a final boss who reloads your last save every time you beat them making the solution where you have to beat them without dying and no saves.
@@kotzpenner Look into Shadow Gambit: The Cursed Crew. It's a real-time tactics game (think Commandos), where the save-reload system is an in-universe thing; the whole game is about the occult and magic powers, and the save-load mechanic is introduced on the first level via dialogue and usage of said mechanic. I won't spoil it, but later in the game there are some neat usages of it.
I hope I am not the only one who is absolutely baffled at the fact that Tim Cain - one of the top dogs of the game dev God echelon - is actually telling us about ideas he has not gotten to use, and offering them to us to potentially make ourselves. It is almost embarrassing how fortunate we are as a generation.
11:26 My experience during the Dark Brotherhood questline in Oblivion after I clearly discovered who the traitor was, and yet the game didn't allow me to actually follow up on that at all.
I know you'll probably never read this, but I work with a gal who used to be a secretary for Interplay. She told me some interesting stories about her time there; she described you as a "drinking colleague." Lisa's a character. But she compared me positively to you, which I'll take as a complement.
i enjoyed the subversion of the recruitable party member stereotypical tropes in Pillars of Eternity, a priest who absolutely hates his god, a paladin who is a political diplomat instead of holy warrior, it worked as the subversions were really fleshed out.
I adore her, really feels like a friend. One of those instances were I would wholeheartedly do everything I can for an NPC, just to make my animated friend happy.
I 100% understand why different audience members would've liked Parvati, but at least for me, one thing that prevented her characterization from "clicking" with me was that we never seemed to get any explanation about *why* she's so constantly saccharine and bouncy. We know why Max is such a grumpy hardass, and we know why Nyoka is such a violent drunk, so why shouldn't we get to know why Parvati is such a saccharine frolicker?
The ring quest in Arcanum sits deep in my memory. All of the quests turning things upside down over and over kept me wanting more from the world. I think it's what gave it its staying power, and why there are people basically performing unholy rites to keep the game going on newer machines. You've said you hate sequels, but I selfishly wish another Arcanum could be developed. Your talks about it, and your showing of the recomp for Win10/11 was really special. Thanks for the vid, as always!
That part about "You're not special" made me think of Fallout 2, where you're literally refered to as The Chosen One in your home village. BUT! If you play the mods where some cut-content get restored, you find out that you're not the only "Chosen One". The former Chosen One is still around and he's pissed off at you for taking his spotlight. 😄
A game that really blew my mind with its setting and story, and had some interesting innovative mechanics, but still used Tim's favorite combo of named character with amnesia, is Disco Elysium. They really did a lot of things right. On another note, it'd be really interesting to imagine a game like Dwarf Fortress, with agent based simulation, other simulated systems, and procedural generation, but which allows "injecting" stories/plots/adventures. Every time one plays through the adventure, things could play out wildly differently, depending on the chaotic nature of such a game. And one could let the simulation run for some time after one has finished the adventure, and let the game generate the epilogue, and thus something similar to ending slides. I wonder what Tim would think about working on such a game?
Love to build such characters. When I realised that in Morrowind I could be a heavy armour wearing wizard with a big bonk stick I was over the moon. For 2003 it felt quite special.
The real-time stealth-strategy game Shadow Gambit: The Cursed Crew has save/load being an actual in-world mechanic involving time manipulation. (Spoiler) Later on, your team encounters an adversary who also has this power. You cannot kill her, because she just reloads a saved game. You can instead only work against her in ways that she doesn't perceive as being threatening enough to reload.
Wow I love that fantasy world idea you came up with. The idea of the princesses being the bad guys and you helping dragons and stuff sounds like such a good twist on the genre. My favorite part by far is the idea of the wizards who were abused and that's why they hide away. I love playing wizards and magic users in games, in D&D I almost always play some kind of wizard or sorcerer, and it makes complete sense that if you're born with these incredible magical abilities then people would abuse that. I think of spells like plant growth in 5th edition and how it's a 3rd level spell that, in 8 hours, will DOUBLE the amount of harvestable crops in a half mile radius for a whole year! Like if you were a druid capable of casting that spell, surely farmers and lords would hunt you down so they can turn you into their slave and make you double their harvest. Even more mundane magics are incredible compared to what normal people can do so it only makes sense that people born with that natural talent would be a tool for the rich and powerful.
Someday soon there will exist a game which explores the 4th wall trope wherein a character is aware that their experiences are fiction, except this one would be more than a mere construct of the narrative.
That last idea is pretty cool, about the player being a villain trying to atone. Most games start with you having good relations with the good guys, but some let you build up reputation with the bad guys. I'm imagining a game where you were a bad guy, and left for some reason (maybe you did something so heinous you had to flea persecution, or you went to prison) but now you're back. You have rep with the evil factions, but almost none with the good factions. It would be so easy for you to fall back in with the "wrong crowd" and get the bad ending here, but it's actually a HUGE STRUGGLE to turn your life around and get the good ending for the game. That would be a cool use of faction systems.
Thank you for the video! I'll often interact with a piece of media and I swear it's just going through the motions, ticking off each box on a checklist, instead of trying to use these tools to say something sincere or meaningful to the people making it. Even when works like that try to subvert a trope, it feels like they're subverting it just to have that subversion, instead of subverting it for any meaningful reason.
I get your idea of subverting tropes, I've seen multiple games do that with mixed results. But I love your final statement about being unique to yourself.
I love the quick blurb on sequels. Knowing when a story is over is so important. Stranger Things went on too long, same with Fast and the Furious or Planet of the Apes. There are tons of examples in video games too where sequels have no heart and don't add anything new.
Dammit. I bought Arcanum but haven't started playing yet. Really wanted to hear this vid, though. Anyway, keep em coming. I don't make games but I find the insights so damn interesting :D
Morrowind did an ez but pretty cool inversion of ur "boss can save the game".... The main city is named after him ,his palace is obvious, itsa bitch to get into, and he is strong AF but if you get there before the storyline wants you there, he doesnt want 2 fight u cause he knows u can load and save
I think the most important thing about subverting tropes is that the scene has to work without the subverted trope. Essentially you’re telling a two narratives, one of which is destined to be subverted and thus fizzle out.
Regarding the 'is subverting a trope a trope onto itself', I like to see it the TV Tropes way: a trope is a tool, and nothing more. So subversion is one of the many things you can use the trope, just like playing it straight.
Also I loved the Caladon quest that parodied LotR. The way the Caladon official whines about having to trudge through a dungeon etc. that was the most memorable trope subversion in Arcanum.
Given the discussion of people moving past previous ill choices, I think people might like the old Witcher short story "A Grain of Truth". It's the Witcher universe's take on the Grimm's telling of The Beauty and the Beast, including the Grimm's telling of how the central curse came to be.
I think when you talk about characters mocking the player for ineffective choices in combat, or for not seeing a bad guy twist coming, that it's more characterizing the threat than the game itself trying to invoke shame in the player. I think this is also good writing in certain games, since a lot of the more memorable villains in games (in my opinion) are the ones that ride the high of their pride and arrogance all the way up until you get the satisfaction of taking them down a peg or three at the end. That could just be my taste, though. I've always been a sucker for villains who are a little more on the Skeletor side, the kind that would relish in it and rub it in if they successfully pulled a fast one on you. I think video games are in a unique position compared to other mediums that they can use the personality of the villain to motivate the player to push forward to the end of the game. It's not like a movie where you want to see a villain fall because of what they did to characters you care about; to an extent, the villain has said and done things to you personally, and I think that adds a neat layer to that. You aren't just waiting to see if the heroes are successful, since in most cases, the catharsis of taking down the baddie is reserved for the player themselves. (Not in every case, of course, but the majority.)
Funny thing is, the first time I tried Arcanum I stopped when the 'You're the chosen one!' conversation happened because I took it entirely at face value. Admittedly, I had it all wrong and when I came back to the game I had a great time with it. I had just seen the same types of stories so many times that when I got the story hook from that NPC at the blimp crash, I just assumed that's exactly what would happen and noped out.
Very good video! People love acting like "trope" is a dirty word, or that you can't use tropes in your writing when they should be treating the word "trope" like the word "noun". It's just a way of defining a pattern, it doesn't mean you're a bad or unoriginal writer. You could say that The Return of the King and Macbeth both use "ironic prophecy" as a trope, but that doesn't mean Tolkien or Shakespeare were unoriginal or copying something else. Hell, most of Tolkien's names for dwarves and wizards are right out of the Poetic Eddas, but that doesn't mean he's a bad writer! He was paying homage to something he was passionate about. Point is, if you spend all your time working yourself into a fit over "I can't use tropes!" you're just going to get a headache, when you should be spending that energy to create and then refine, refine, refine!
The bit about the end reminds me of what Parthurnaax said in Skyrim “Is it better to be born good or overcome your evil nature through mediation” or something to that effect I never believed in god but my family is catholic a few generations back and I tend to agree that forgiveness sometimes doesn’t cut it, you gotta do something good to make up for the damage you’ve done, especially if the person you’re making amends for is still effected by it Some people like Bill Cosby or Alec Baldwin tho, they can go directly to the trash can, no further analysis needed
Totally agree. Particularly it's really exhausted the "mind control" trope, one of your companions turn against you and has to be brought back. Like they did in the first Avengers Movie.
I really like when the devs do something AND think about the player's reaction to that something and do another thing for the player's followup actions.
Trope subversion is precisely why the first Witcher book is so fun. More than once, a stage is seemingly purposely set where you think you know what is going to happen, but then things take a sudden turn. The fantasy trope you expected is instead lampooned. Some say Sapkowski then fell into these tropes after the first book, however. That appears to be largely true, unfortunately.
Hey Tim! been a fan of the channel and some of the games you and your former associates have worked on for awhile and I’ve got a question that might make for a good video topic. How exactly do you tackle systems design in your games as someone that’s served the roles of being a programmer, game designer, writer and a consultant over the years? do you look to outside sources or your own past work for inspiration?
The setting and story often suggest the system mechanics to use. If not, I have idea books filled with system mechanics ideas. I’ve never been at a loss for new mechanics.
Hi Tim, a few videos ago you talked about multi-user-dungeons and the emerging player psychology types ( killers, explorers, socialicers, achievers). It would be very interesting to hear you talk about these in the context of singleplayer rpgs, where there is no in-game socializing, but perhaps there is some online. Or in very linear games with one level following another level in a preset order, does this still fulfill an explorers "desires", does seeing the next level count as exploring it on a first playthrough.
The game could use an auto save upon entering the boss area and the boss has code that states if the save is loaded by the boss (I imagine the conputer would just bring up the load menu and select the save instantly) then run unique dialog telling you that's what he did. Then after this unique dialog it overwrites that same auto save with another tag to change the dialog each time it detects the number of times the save was overwritten.
It seems like the key of using and subverting tropes is intentionality - being conscious of what media you're taking inspiration from and how you can differentiate from it. In the modern world there are tropes related to everything, the key is to consider what that trope implies for your world. Dont subvert tropes just because it feels cool, subvert a trope to tell a story in a new way, and use tropes to implicitly communicate information to players. The weird "using trope=bad writing" idea usually feels kind of immature to me.
"Isn't the subversion of tropes also in itself a trope?" Well some argue that every story ever told in the history of mankind is really just a re-telling of the Epic of Gilgamesh with some minor tweaks to the story. So I guess we can't ever be completely original. 😄 Imo, tropes are fine. It's how you use them that makes the difference.
The only caveat with subverting tropes is if you play them 100% straight initially, players might still find it dull and leave before your big reveal. I experience this all the time in media, especially regarding character motivations, and it’s frustrating. If a character’s actions make no sense until an hour later, then I’m going to think your story sucks for an entire hour, and probably quit by then. In the case of nonsensical character behavior, you can fix it by simply having the story acknowledge it. E.g. “Gee, Bill sure is acting weird today!” But in the case of subverting a trope, I’m not sure how you would foreshadow that without spoiling it altogether.
Hi Tim. In the fallout livestream you did with Leonard at Obsidian you talked about another Fallout entry that you had thought of and written down in your notes. Could you talk about that? Maybe some of the designs you had thought of or the basics of the story? Thanks In advance.
Disco Elysium expemplifies this video's message. Say something new about something old, and let the player do the same. It's... one of the most impactful pieces of art I've experienced in my lifetime, and it didn't seem to try. And no, I'm not a shill, just a fan with a recommendation and people on Tim's channel seem like my kind of gamers.
I've noticed that tropes that were once being subverted now have the subversions being the norm. E.G. a couple of decades ago rescuing the dragon from the evil princess would have been a cool subversion. Nowadays, I feel I am more likely to see that version of the story than the old damsel in distress version. Evil Superman, or a Superman like character doing evil acts believing it was for the greater good was the rare subversion, now that is the norm. Majorly flawed heroes were rarer, now they are commonplace. Etc.
I hope one day you'll mention Kingdom Come Deliverance (maybe you already have, I just haven't seen the video). The creators were big into historical accuracy and "realism" (but not at the cost of fun, as you like to point out yourself). They mostly subvert character tropes in that game by making the characters act like actual human beings and not being defined by a first (or even second) impression. For example, you meet an arrogant, lazy, young noble lord (about your age) who will see you training and challenge you to "compare skills" while calling you names. Classic setup for a rival, but without spoiling much, it might end up differently between you in the end. Since I talk about that game, a related question - have you thought about doing a historical RPG? What period/event would you like to portray if you'd have to make one?
Hey Tim. I would love your take on healing, both as function/mechanic and lore wise. Its always going to be some sort of suspension of disbelief, but it can be more or less abstract. One can also view it as a luck running out meter, or some games punish you with debuffs if you are hurt.
If you HP is supposed to represent your luck running out that makes it harder to explain HP items and abilities. Unless you want health pickups to be four leaf clovers and horseshoes I guess.
@@thebolas000 is it better to be able to get run through with a sword, but since you still have 4 out of 81 hp you are still fully functional in every aspect?
@@Hjorth87 Depends on the game. I prefer consequences from HP loss, even if it's just a visual change like being covered in blood. I'd be more taken out of the game if I picked up a health item and it filled my luckometer. If you go with luck as HP I think healing your luck needs to make sense.
There are MANY RECENT games and movies that portray characters doing something criminal or impulsive who then seek atonement and feel guilty, and they are forgiven (I was watching Fear The Walking Dead). The cancel thing is not simple at all and, no, people do not always react the same way. It varies a lot, case per case. I remember a famous French singer I liked a lot, who became shunned after killing his wife during a violent argument. I still like his art and songs, but is he sort of cancelled even to me: yes, but it is a case by case, related to circumstances. The trope is how cancel culture is portrayed in social media, by conservatives who want to freely express their discriminatory policies.
Can we make the topic of 'subverting tropes' a trope on this channel? 🤣 Seriously though, being unique instead of 'playing it safe' is super important for innovating and expanding the game industry IMO. Also, the idea of having the villain be able to save game is awesome.
Totally agree with you about "reveals" that come out of no where and don't feel earned. That's not a subversion at all. There have to be some breadcrumbs, some seeds of doubt, some red herrings! Leave me guessing 'til the very end! If you successfully subverted my expectations after all that, kudos to you. If you pull it out of left field... how is that entertaining?
13:11. You’re not a villain per se, but Disco Elysium can be played to the beats of this sort of narrative (player character knowing they did wrong and attempting through the players actions going on a journey to be a better person to at least some degree).
Hey Tim, I want to make a game down the line, and I’m thinking of using a set, pre-existing character, name and everything, for an rpg. Is it possible to make a good rpg that uses a character that’s already made, if you still have the character start at base skills?
Hey Tim! Interested do you play your own games or have completed them after shipping them? It’s always interesting hearing if devs have actually played their own games, especially if they’re considered masterpieces.
Not to be overly critical, but repeated subversion sounds like the exact problem The Outer Worlds had. You try to care about any part of the story, and the story goes "haha, you were an idiot for caring about this!". Subversion of expectations is an extremely dangerous tool, because expectations build the excitement and attachment.
12:15 This happens in Wrath of the Righteous, one person is obviously doing bad things but you can't do anything about it short of walking into the obvious trap they set to murder/capture them. Not to be confused with the other person doing obviously bad things that you can call out XD
The part about unsuccessful subversions make me think of Spec Ops: The Line. The game devs wanted to give the player this subversive message about video game violence and questioning your morality as a player for continually shooting people in the game. Which would've been fine in itself if you want to raise those questions, if it wasn't for the fact that the game is a very railroaded experience where the player has little agency over the violence in it. It's literally kill or be killed, and kill or you can't progress in the game. Even in it's most "shocking" moment where the protagonists mortar a bunch of civilians with white phosphorous, you never actually get a choice NOT to do it. It's like the game devs message was "you shouldn't play our game, because that makes you a horrible person" (but we happily take the money you paid for the game and don't want you to return it and ask for a refund of course 😁) The game itself was fine, but this not so subtle messaging made me a bit angry with the developers truth be told.
Not entirely related, but I grew up with a friend who insisted on being called Fat Dan. What a guy. Anyway, regarding the 12:00 point of making the player feel stupid, the most egregious offender, for me, is Disco Elysium. You can nearly solve the murder at the beginning of the game - figure out that the victim was shot, from what angle, and even find the stockpile of rifles used for it. Does the game account for this? No, not at all. You still accuse people of hanging the victim, despite knowing they were shot to death - you can mention that he was shot, but they'll just go "wuh!?", and then the conversation resumes as if you hadn't. Then, in the final 30 minutes of the game, no matter what, you'll end up meeting the murderer with said rifle. I'd already solved it at the start, why is the game trying to pretend that I needed 20+ more hours to figure out where the murderer was?
That game's more about the journey. It's a game where you can have conversations with your tie. The murder is less important in the end than trying to come to terms with your own past. In the end you learn that in many ways your character is in many ways an idiot and a complete failure as a person.
i love the idea of the villain having save games! we have only recently (relatively speaking) started seeing games being that meta. and still don't think anyone has used this idea. Parvati is such a sweetheart, she's one of my favorite characters in all gaming precisely because she's that nice and it's so unusual, especially in settings like that. she's precious. also shoutout to xena the warrior princess who paved the way for all those amish princesses. i really like the idea of adventuring princesses, because that also informs queens in the setting. you might meet a queen and maybe she just seems like someone who passively occupies a throne but she may very well turn out to be a legendary fighter because of her experience from her youth. or maybe a queen might seem naive when she's actually quite cunning. this kind of thing rewards players who expect it because they've been paying attention and thinking about consequences of what they've seen, but also surprise players who haven't thought about it in a good way because it makes sense rather than coming out of nowhere. "of course! she was once a princess on a quest too... that's so cool!"
I liked the way Disco Elysium begins with you as a character who suffers from amnesia after a drug and alcohol binge. Along the way you learn that you were a horrible person, and you can continue being that jerk or you can try to redeem yourself, but either way the game doesn't allow you to escape the emotional damage caused by the person you were in the past.
On the wizards in towers idea, Final Fantasy XVI had a similar idea where magic users were a slave class instead of being treated as normal or wise wizards and such
the final fantasy series has explored that idea multiple times. spellcasters being weaponized for war and gathering the elemental crystals that play some role in most of the games
What are some of your favorite personal elements you have put in your games. I heard the Fallout recipes in the manual were yours and that the Fallout 3 Mirelurk recipe is a nod to yours.
I know braid supposedly makes you the villain in reverse when you complete it, but they dont exactly spell out whats really happening. But I plan to make a game where you arent a hero youre a survivor and depending on how you interpret the ending maybe you are a villain.
Tropes aside, there are things missing in gaming. Dungeon siege. First one. You can have 8 characters. Make them all summoners. Make them all summon animals/creatures. Watch the chaos on screen :) Overlord or something similar. Goofy evil, basically.
"You wanna make an amnesia game? Knock yourself out!" - I see what you did there Mr Cain. Very clever 😂
amneeeeeesiaaaaa
I don't remember this part of the video
@@heavenheathern at 0:55
@@heavenheathernGuess you followed the advice
ahaha
I immensely enjoy in Morrowind how they approached idea of player being a reincarnation of hero, who came to save everybody.
Game doesn't actually have any definitive proof of that, half of story is you basically fabricating circumstances to fit into prophecy and what's most fun is nobody around actually cares. They have tough lives to live and don't have time for "heroes", and player often plays a role of sucker they found to unload their dirty work to, rather than hero returned to save the day.
When you get addressed as Neravar by a demi god i think that put it out of doubt
@@mementomori771 I think that's just out of convenience to get advantage of you for personal needs.
Final vibe check is when before final fight Dagoth Ur, despite coming in your dreams, asks you - hey fella, how do you think, are you really Nerevar reborn?
And you can answer "Dunno, man" or "I'm just me" if you want.
Azura pointed her finger at you and called you Nerevarine, but to achieve her goals through you. Tribunal is no different.
I remember the last time Bethesda had good writing
@blacxthornE Thanks the Michael Kirkbride, its a shame he left shortly after Morrowind shipped would have been interesting to see what became of Bethesda if he stayed.
@@mementomori771 what if that demi god is lying? She sees you proving yourself to a lot of people so she says "ok, I'm gonna use this guy"
It's also fascinating when the subversion of a trope becomes the new trope. The example of this i love is evil Superman stories were rampant for a few years and it became stale fast with the exception of Homelander.
I mean Invincible handled it pretty well too. Like Tim said, as long as the game/movie/show is doing something original and interesting, who cares if it's a trope or not.
I really like the idea of a final boss who reloads your last save every time you beat them making the solution where you have to beat them without dying and no saves.
Maybe as a secret boss or in a game where save and reload are part of the gameplay.
reminds me of the last boss in Undertale, flowey.
Maybe you need to edit the save file to best then
@@kotzpenner Look into Shadow Gambit: The Cursed Crew. It's a real-time tactics game (think Commandos), where the save-reload system is an in-universe thing; the whole game is about the occult and magic powers, and the save-load mechanic is introduced on the first level via dialogue and usage of said mechanic.
I won't spoil it, but later in the game there are some neat usages of it.
@@DS-rd8ud pretty cool
I hope I am not the only one who is absolutely baffled at the fact that Tim Cain - one of the top dogs of the game dev God echelon - is actually telling us about ideas he has not gotten to use, and offering them to us to potentially make ourselves. It is almost embarrassing how fortunate we are as a generation.
Because he knows that ideas are cheap, it's implementation that matters. I imagine he has a video on this exact subject.
11:26 My experience during the Dark Brotherhood questline in Oblivion after I clearly discovered who the traitor was, and yet the game didn't allow me to actually follow up on that at all.
Bethesda disappoints me endlessly.
I know you'll probably never read this, but I work with a gal who used to be a secretary for Interplay. She told me some interesting stories about her time there; she described you as a "drinking colleague." Lisa's a character. But she compared me positively to you, which I'll take as a complement.
I remember Lisa. Say hi to her from me!
i enjoyed the subversion of the recruitable party member stereotypical tropes in Pillars of Eternity, a priest who absolutely hates his god, a paladin who is a political diplomat instead of holy warrior, it worked as the subversions were really fleshed out.
Parvati is a good example of a character completely subverting my expectations and making me thankful for the subversion.
ironically, I didn't find her that interesting to be around, she just felt like a friend to lean on every now & then.
I adore her, really feels like a friend. One of those instances were I would wholeheartedly do everything I can for an NPC, just to make my animated friend happy.
I 100% understand why different audience members would've liked Parvati, but at least for me, one thing that prevented her characterization from "clicking" with me was that we never seemed to get any explanation about *why* she's so constantly saccharine and bouncy. We know why Max is such a grumpy hardass, and we know why Nyoka is such a violent drunk, so why shouldn't we get to know why Parvati is such a saccharine frolicker?
@@aNerdNamedJames I thought it was a defense mechanism, she's not really happy but she has a great attitude.
@@DanielFerreira-ez8qd Were there any specific dialogue lines or barks that particularly pointed you towards thinking that?
One of these days Tim should say something like "Hello, everybody. It is I, Timothy" just to subvert our expectations. 😂
Save games are the whole plot device in Undertale, actually you have to tire sans out before you can defeat him.
The ring quest in Arcanum sits deep in my memory. All of the quests turning things upside down over and over kept me wanting more from the world. I think it's what gave it its staying power, and why there are people basically performing unholy rites to keep the game going on newer machines.
You've said you hate sequels, but I selfishly wish another Arcanum could be developed. Your talks about it, and your showing of the recomp for Win10/11 was really special.
Thanks for the vid, as always!
You’ll like my Arcanum development timeline, coming May 30. It’s over 30 minutes long.
I thought Parvati was a wink at Firefly and the also very friendly mechanic character Kaylee.
9:45 that thing about the villian being able to Save the game just blew up my mind
I tried to sudvert tropes once, but then I took a knee to my arrow.
I'll bet you didn't see the nuclear winter coming!
That part about "You're not special" made me think of Fallout 2, where you're literally refered to as The Chosen One in your home village.
BUT! If you play the mods where some cut-content get restored, you find out that you're not the only "Chosen One". The former Chosen One is still around and he's pissed off at you for taking his spotlight. 😄
Really placed emphasis on "it's me, Tim" today. Hmmm, we'll need to monitor the situation.
Definitely a Timpostor
A game that really blew my mind with its setting and story, and had some interesting innovative mechanics, but still used Tim's favorite combo of named character with amnesia, is Disco Elysium. They really did a lot of things right.
On another note, it'd be really interesting to imagine a game like Dwarf Fortress, with agent based simulation, other simulated systems, and procedural generation, but which allows "injecting" stories/plots/adventures. Every time one plays through the adventure, things could play out wildly differently, depending on the chaotic nature of such a game. And one could let the simulation run for some time after one has finished the adventure, and let the game generate the epilogue, and thus something similar to ending slides. I wonder what Tim would think about working on such a game?
Damn you could have done the twist undertale did like 20 years ahead of time.
My favorite fantasy RPG trope that always try to subvert as a player is to play as a frontline wizard.
Love to build such characters. When I realised that in Morrowind I could be a heavy armour wearing wizard with a big bonk stick I was over the moon. For 2003 it felt quite special.
@almastidyatlov9641 I loved that in Oblivion as well. Also, Pillars Of Eternity 2 had cool synergies with mage for melee.
The real-time stealth-strategy game Shadow Gambit: The Cursed Crew has save/load being an actual in-world mechanic involving time manipulation.
(Spoiler) Later on, your team encounters an adversary who also has this power. You cannot kill her, because she just reloads a saved game. You can instead only work against her in ways that she doesn't perceive as being threatening enough to reload.
Another example, which is... very famous.., would be Undertale.
A shame the game is tainted with SBI.
@@pelicano1987State Bank of India?
Wow I love that fantasy world idea you came up with. The idea of the princesses being the bad guys and you helping dragons and stuff sounds like such a good twist on the genre. My favorite part by far is the idea of the wizards who were abused and that's why they hide away. I love playing wizards and magic users in games, in D&D I almost always play some kind of wizard or sorcerer, and it makes complete sense that if you're born with these incredible magical abilities then people would abuse that. I think of spells like plant growth in 5th edition and how it's a 3rd level spell that, in 8 hours, will DOUBLE the amount of harvestable crops in a half mile radius for a whole year! Like if you were a druid capable of casting that spell, surely farmers and lords would hunt you down so they can turn you into their slave and make you double their harvest. Even more mundane magics are incredible compared to what normal people can do so it only makes sense that people born with that natural talent would be a tool for the rich and powerful.
Well, you subverted the trope of the expectation of subverting "It's me, Tim" in a video titled like this.
Thanks Tim watched hundreds of your videos but I always learn or get another perspective every time. Thank you.
Someday soon there will exist a game which explores the 4th wall trope wherein a character is aware that their experiences are fiction, except this one would be more than a mere construct of the narrative.
Hi Tim, it's me, Nick. I just wanted to say that i look forward to your video's everyday, thank you for being here!
That last idea is pretty cool, about the player being a villain trying to atone. Most games start with you having good relations with the good guys, but some let you build up reputation with the bad guys. I'm imagining a game where you were a bad guy, and left for some reason (maybe you did something so heinous you had to flea persecution, or you went to prison) but now you're back. You have rep with the evil factions, but almost none with the good factions. It would be so easy for you to fall back in with the "wrong crowd" and get the bad ending here, but it's actually a HUGE STRUGGLE to turn your life around and get the good ending for the game. That would be a cool use of faction systems.
It's like he's trying to call out Tyranny without actually saying Tyranny. That game doesn't get enough credit for making villain the main choice.
Thank you for the video! I'll often interact with a piece of media and I swear it's just going through the motions, ticking off each box on a checklist, instead of trying to use these tools to say something sincere or meaningful to the people making it. Even when works like that try to subvert a trope, it feels like they're subverting it just to have that subversion, instead of subverting it for any meaningful reason.
im so glad i've found this channel, as a programming student this is really stimulating and makes me want to get into game development even more
I get your idea of subverting tropes, I've seen multiple games do that with mixed results. But I love your final statement about being unique to yourself.
I love the quick blurb on sequels. Knowing when a story is over is so important. Stranger Things went on too long, same with Fast and the Furious or Planet of the Apes. There are tons of examples in video games too where sequels have no heart and don't add anything new.
Parvati is such a wholesome character. I love her. Her personal questline just had me smiling all the way through.
Dammit. I bought Arcanum but haven't started playing yet. Really wanted to hear this vid, though.
Anyway, keep em coming. I don't make games but I find the insights so damn interesting :D
@@lrinfi nah, managed to press pause in time
coming up with video game ideas is so fun. i love to think of ways to surprise people with my thoughts.
Morrowind did an ez but pretty cool inversion of ur "boss can save the game".... The main city is named after him ,his palace is obvious, itsa bitch to get into, and he is strong AF but if you get there before the storyline wants you there, he doesnt want 2 fight u cause he knows u can load and save
Great ideas all of them.
Loving listening while at my 9-5 wishing I was home programming in unreal or something. Also loved the podcast over at play watch listen
I think the most important thing about subverting tropes is that the scene has to work without the subverted trope. Essentially you’re telling a two narratives, one of which is destined to be subverted and thus fizzle out.
Parvati was absolutely my favourite character from outer worlds such a great character
Regarding the 'is subverting a trope a trope onto itself', I like to see it the TV Tropes way: a trope is a tool, and nothing more. So subversion is one of the many things you can use the trope, just like playing it straight.
I reall want to play that original fallout game with the fantasy twist!! Thank you for the great video and have a great day 😊
"a GNOME?! What manner of tomfoolery is this?!"
I have a brain cell whose job it is to permanently record and remind me of that line.
Also I loved the Caladon quest that parodied LotR. The way the Caladon official whines about having to trudge through a dungeon etc. that was the most memorable trope subversion in Arcanum.
OMG a villain, or ANY NPC that has savegame powers is the most brilliant idea for something in a game I've ever heard
Given the discussion of people moving past previous ill choices, I think people might like the old Witcher short story "A Grain of Truth". It's the Witcher universe's take on the Grimm's telling of The Beauty and the Beast, including the Grimm's telling of how the central curse came to be.
I think when you talk about characters mocking the player for ineffective choices in combat, or for not seeing a bad guy twist coming, that it's more characterizing the threat than the game itself trying to invoke shame in the player.
I think this is also good writing in certain games, since a lot of the more memorable villains in games (in my opinion) are the ones that ride the high of their pride and arrogance all the way up until you get the satisfaction of taking them down a peg or three at the end.
That could just be my taste, though. I've always been a sucker for villains who are a little more on the Skeletor side, the kind that would relish in it and rub it in if they successfully pulled a fast one on you.
I think video games are in a unique position compared to other mediums that they can use the personality of the villain to motivate the player to push forward to the end of the game. It's not like a movie where you want to see a villain fall because of what they did to characters you care about; to an extent, the villain has said and done things to you personally, and I think that adds a neat layer to that. You aren't just waiting to see if the heroes are successful, since in most cases, the catharsis of taking down the baddie is reserved for the player themselves. (Not in every case, of course, but the majority.)
Funny thing is, the first time I tried Arcanum I stopped when the 'You're the chosen one!' conversation happened because I took it entirely at face value. Admittedly, I had it all wrong and when I came back to the game I had a great time with it. I had just seen the same types of stories so many times that when I got the story hook from that NPC at the blimp crash, I just assumed that's exactly what would happen and noped out.
Very good video! People love acting like "trope" is a dirty word, or that you can't use tropes in your writing when they should be treating the word "trope" like the word "noun". It's just a way of defining a pattern, it doesn't mean you're a bad or unoriginal writer. You could say that The Return of the King and Macbeth both use "ironic prophecy" as a trope, but that doesn't mean Tolkien or Shakespeare were unoriginal or copying something else. Hell, most of Tolkien's names for dwarves and wizards are right out of the Poetic Eddas, but that doesn't mean he's a bad writer! He was paying homage to something he was passionate about.
Point is, if you spend all your time working yourself into a fit over "I can't use tropes!" you're just going to get a headache, when you should be spending that energy to create and then refine, refine, refine!
The bit about the end reminds me of what Parthurnaax said in Skyrim
“Is it better to be born good or overcome your evil nature through mediation” or something to that effect
I never believed in god but my family is catholic a few generations back and I tend to agree that forgiveness sometimes doesn’t cut it, you gotta do something good to make up for the damage you’ve done, especially if the person you’re making amends for is still effected by it
Some people like Bill Cosby or Alec Baldwin tho, they can go directly to the trash can, no further analysis needed
Totally agree. Particularly it's really exhausted the "mind control" trope, one of your companions turn against you and has to be brought back. Like they did in the first Avengers Movie.
I really like when the devs do something AND think about the player's reaction to that something and do another thing for the player's followup actions.
A villain trying to atone.... Is it too late for someone to make an epic Xena game?
Trope subversion is precisely why the first Witcher book is so fun. More than once, a stage is seemingly purposely set where you think you know what is going to happen, but then things take a sudden turn. The fantasy trope you expected is instead lampooned. Some say Sapkowski then fell into these tropes after the first book, however. That appears to be largely true, unfortunately.
Hey Tim! been a fan of the channel and some of the games you and your former associates have worked on for awhile and I’ve got a question that might make for a good video topic. How exactly do you tackle systems design in your games as someone that’s served the roles of being a programmer, game designer, writer and a consultant over the years? do you look to outside sources or your own past work for inspiration?
The setting and story often suggest the system mechanics to use. If not, I have idea books filled with system mechanics ideas. I’ve never been at a loss for new mechanics.
@@CainOnGames I appreciate the succinct response
Hi Tim,
a few videos ago you talked about multi-user-dungeons and the emerging player psychology types ( killers, explorers, socialicers, achievers).
It would be very interesting to hear you talk about these in the context of singleplayer rpgs, where there is no in-game socializing, but perhaps there is some online.
Or in very linear games with one level following another level in a preset order, does this still fulfill an explorers "desires", does seeing the next level count as exploring it on a first playthrough.
the idea of the antagonist being able to reload would be difficult to distinguish from a multi-phase bossfight
The game could use an auto save upon entering the boss area and the boss has code that states if the save is loaded by the boss (I imagine the conputer would just bring up the load menu and select the save instantly) then run unique dialog telling you that's what he did. Then after this unique dialog it overwrites that same auto save with another tag to change the dialog each time it detects the number of times the save was overwritten.
It seems like the key of using and subverting tropes is intentionality - being conscious of what media you're taking inspiration from and how you can differentiate from it. In the modern world there are tropes related to everything, the key is to consider what that trope implies for your world. Dont subvert tropes just because it feels cool, subvert a trope to tell a story in a new way, and use tropes to implicitly communicate information to players. The weird "using trope=bad writing" idea usually feels kind of immature to me.
Imagine the final boss rage quitting you
Subverting tropes (poorly) has become a trope.
"Isn't the subversion of tropes also in itself a trope?"
Well some argue that every story ever told in the history of mankind is really just a re-telling of the Epic of Gilgamesh with some minor tweaks to the story.
So I guess we can't ever be completely original. 😄
Imo, tropes are fine. It's how you use them that makes the difference.
That's the entirety of Fallout though, it's all tropes and references.
I was raised on Arcanum and it made a fan of conspiracy theories (not even talking about half-ogres, just the whole Panarii religion), thank you.
The only caveat with subverting tropes is if you play them 100% straight initially, players might still find it dull and leave before your big reveal.
I experience this all the time in media, especially regarding character motivations, and it’s frustrating. If a character’s actions make no sense until an hour later, then I’m going to think your story sucks for an entire hour, and probably quit by then.
In the case of nonsensical character behavior, you can fix it by simply having the story acknowledge it. E.g. “Gee, Bill sure is acting weird today!” But in the case of subverting a trope, I’m not sure how you would foreshadow that without spoiling it altogether.
Hi Tim. In the fallout livestream you did with Leonard at Obsidian you talked about another Fallout entry that you had thought of and written down in your notes. Could you talk about that? Maybe some of the designs you had thought of or the basics of the story? Thanks In advance.
Disco Elysium expemplifies this video's message. Say something new about something old, and let the player do the same. It's... one of the most impactful pieces of art I've experienced in my lifetime, and it didn't seem to try. And no, I'm not a shill, just a fan with a recommendation and people on Tim's channel seem like my kind of gamers.
The problem with subversions is that in the hands of a bad or a mediocre writer you can end up with a story or a character that makes no sense.
Amnesia, time travel or offscreen fake death and revival are like the plaster to hold a shaky story together. The fix-it toolbox.
I've noticed that tropes that were once being subverted now have the subversions being the norm. E.G. a couple of decades ago rescuing the dragon from the evil princess would have been a cool subversion. Nowadays, I feel I am more likely to see that version of the story than the old damsel in distress version. Evil Superman, or a Superman like character doing evil acts believing it was for the greater good was the rare subversion, now that is the norm. Majorly flawed heroes were rarer, now they are commonplace. Etc.
I hope one day you'll mention Kingdom Come Deliverance (maybe you already have, I just haven't seen the video). The creators were big into historical accuracy and "realism" (but not at the cost of fun, as you like to point out yourself). They mostly subvert character tropes in that game by making the characters act like actual human beings and not being defined by a first (or even second) impression. For example, you meet an arrogant, lazy, young noble lord (about your age) who will see you training and challenge you to "compare skills" while calling you names. Classic setup for a rival, but without spoiling much, it might end up differently between you in the end.
Since I talk about that game, a related question - have you thought about doing a historical RPG? What period/event would you like to portray if you'd have to make one?
Hey Tim.
I would love your take on healing, both as function/mechanic and lore wise.
Its always going to be some sort of suspension of disbelief, but it can be more or less abstract. One can also view it as a luck running out meter, or some games punish you with debuffs if you are hurt.
If you HP is supposed to represent your luck running out that makes it harder to explain HP items and abilities. Unless you want health pickups to be four leaf clovers and horseshoes I guess.
@@thebolas000 is it better to be able to get run through with a sword, but since you still have 4 out of 81 hp you are still fully functional in every aspect?
@@Hjorth87 Depends on the game. I prefer consequences from HP loss, even if it's just a visual change like being covered in blood. I'd be more taken out of the game if I picked up a health item and it filled my luckometer.
If you go with luck as HP I think healing your luck needs to make sense.
Bioshock Infinite had the player be the villain in a couple ways.
Surprised that Tim Cain came up with the premise of Redo of Healer.
There are MANY RECENT games and movies that portray characters doing something criminal or impulsive who then seek atonement and feel guilty, and they are forgiven (I was watching Fear The Walking Dead). The cancel thing is not simple at all and, no, people do not always react the same way. It varies a lot, case per case. I remember a famous French singer I liked a lot, who became shunned after killing his wife during a violent argument. I still like his art and songs, but is he sort of cancelled even to me: yes, but it is a case by case, related to circumstances. The trope is how cancel culture is portrayed in social media, by conservatives who want to freely express their discriminatory policies.
Can we make the topic of 'subverting tropes' a trope on this channel? 🤣 Seriously though, being unique instead of 'playing it safe' is super important for innovating and expanding the game industry IMO. Also, the idea of having the villain be able to save game is awesome.
Waiting for the "Hi everyone, it is I... Tim"
Totally agree with you about "reveals" that come out of no where and don't feel earned. That's not a subversion at all. There have to be some breadcrumbs, some seeds of doubt, some red herrings! Leave me guessing 'til the very end! If you successfully subverted my expectations after all that, kudos to you. If you pull it out of left field... how is that entertaining?
13:11. You’re not a villain per se, but Disco Elysium can be played to the beats of this sort of narrative (player character knowing they did wrong and attempting through the players actions going on a journey to be a better person to at least some degree).
Hey Tim, I want to make a game down the line, and I’m thinking of using a set, pre-existing character, name and everything, for an rpg. Is it possible to make a good rpg that uses a character that’s already made, if you still have the character start at base skills?
Hey Tim! Interested do you play your own games or have completed them after shipping them? It’s always interesting hearing if devs have actually played their own games, especially if they’re considered masterpieces.
This. I am currently working on a game that has trope after trope and they are all getting turned on their head. I'm glad you think that works Tim.
Not to be overly critical, but repeated subversion sounds like the exact problem The Outer Worlds had. You try to care about any part of the story, and the story goes "haha, you were an idiot for caring about this!". Subversion of expectations is an extremely dangerous tool, because expectations build the excitement and attachment.
i enjoy being surprised more so than finding out what i expected to happen be reality.
10:14 This was already done (or its similar) in undertale, the boss fight is called sans and its from the evil run.
12:15 This happens in Wrath of the Righteous, one person is obviously doing bad things but you can't do anything about it short of walking into the obvious trap they set to murder/capture them.
Not to be confused with the other person doing obviously bad things that you can call out XD
The part about unsuccessful subversions make me think of Spec Ops: The Line.
The game devs wanted to give the player this subversive message about video game violence and questioning your morality as a player for continually shooting people in the game.
Which would've been fine in itself if you want to raise those questions, if it wasn't for the fact that the game is a very railroaded experience where the player has little agency over the violence in it. It's literally kill or be killed, and kill or you can't progress in the game.
Even in it's most "shocking" moment where the protagonists mortar a bunch of civilians with white phosphorous, you never actually get a choice NOT to do it.
It's like the game devs message was "you shouldn't play our game, because that makes you a horrible person" (but we happily take the money you paid for the game and don't want you to return it and ask for a refund of course 😁)
The game itself was fine, but this not so subtle messaging made me a bit angry with the developers truth be told.
If you don't interact with the game, the message wouldn't be delivered though. The subversion would be lost.
My favorite part of Ultima 6 was when you found out that you were the bad guy all along
The real villains were the friends you made along the way.
Not entirely related, but I grew up with a friend who insisted on being called Fat Dan. What a guy.
Anyway, regarding the 12:00 point of making the player feel stupid, the most egregious offender, for me, is Disco Elysium. You can nearly solve the murder at the beginning of the game - figure out that the victim was shot, from what angle, and even find the stockpile of rifles used for it. Does the game account for this? No, not at all.
You still accuse people of hanging the victim, despite knowing they were shot to death - you can mention that he was shot, but they'll just go "wuh!?", and then the conversation resumes as if you hadn't. Then, in the final 30 minutes of the game, no matter what, you'll end up meeting the murderer with said rifle.
I'd already solved it at the start, why is the game trying to pretend that I needed 20+ more hours to figure out where the murderer was?
That game's more about the journey. It's a game where you can have conversations with your tie. The murder is less important in the end than trying to come to terms with your own past. In the end you learn that in many ways your character is in many ways an idiot and a complete failure as a person.
My sister dated a guy nicknamed Chubs. He wanted to lose weight so he made sure people reminded him to keep at it.
It was Lord Baconator the entire time! *"It was ME, AUSTIN!".gif*
i love the idea of the villain having save games! we have only recently (relatively speaking) started seeing games being that meta. and still don't think anyone has used this idea.
Parvati is such a sweetheart, she's one of my favorite characters in all gaming precisely because she's that nice and it's so unusual, especially in settings like that. she's precious.
also shoutout to xena the warrior princess who paved the way for all those amish princesses.
i really like the idea of adventuring princesses, because that also informs queens in the setting. you might meet a queen and maybe she just seems like someone who passively occupies a throne but she may very well turn out to be a legendary fighter because of her experience from her youth. or maybe a queen might seem naive when she's actually quite cunning. this kind of thing rewards players who expect it because they've been paying attention and thinking about consequences of what they've seen, but also surprise players who haven't thought about it in a good way because it makes sense rather than coming out of nowhere. "of course! she was once a princess on a quest too... that's so cool!"
I liked the way Disco Elysium begins with you as a character who suffers from amnesia after a drug and alcohol binge. Along the way you learn that you were a horrible person, and you can continue being that jerk or you can try to redeem yourself, but either way the game doesn't allow you to escape the emotional damage caused by the person you were in the past.
On the wizards in towers idea, Final Fantasy XVI had a similar idea where magic users were a slave class instead of being treated as normal or wise wizards and such
the final fantasy series has explored that idea multiple times. spellcasters being weaponized for war and gathering the elemental crystals that play some role in most of the games
The way you said dope nasty 😂
There was a mod for Fallout 2 called Fallout 1.5 that used the amnesia trope very well.
i wish it could be fully finished someday
What are some of your favorite personal elements you have put in your games. I heard the Fallout recipes in the manual were yours and that the Fallout 3 Mirelurk recipe is a nod to yours.
Thanks guy!
No Cancelling. Only Caincelling.
It turns out that it's tropes all the way down.
Keep yappin unc. Cant stop watching ur vids
I know braid supposedly makes you the villain in reverse when you complete it, but they dont exactly spell out whats really happening.
But I plan to make a game where you arent a hero youre a survivor and depending on how you interpret the ending maybe you are a villain.
Tropes aside, there are things missing in gaming. Dungeon siege. First one. You can have 8 characters. Make them all summoners. Make them all summon animals/creatures. Watch the chaos on screen :)
Overlord or something similar. Goofy evil, basically.
Hey tim, will you be making a video on indie games?