Another thing about Anakin redemption is you have to remember that Vader was Anakin's punishment and prison for the time Vader was in control, Anakin didn't live a high life after his terrible actions, he suffered and lost all he wanted.
Yes, and I also think that Vader/Anakin knew that Palpatine's force lightning would damage his suit, leading to his death, but he didn't care as long as he could save Luke.
The mofo was smothered in fire and spent the next few decades in a prosthetic hell. Nothing encapsulates this more perfectly than James Luceno's Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader novel, set immediately after Revenge of the Sith, and part of the Clone Wars Multimedia Project that is far superior to what Dave Filoni did over on TCW.
That’s what count not every multimedia project can be 100% good but atleast let the majority be good. Disneys canon is 90% bad and that’s why I ignore it now
We need a new narrative to counter "the EU was 90% trash" talking points TCW and Disney fanboys love to shove down our throats. "The good outweighed the bad." THAT should be the new narrative.
Also, you already have feedback on what works and what doesn’t. What fans like and dislike. There’s literally marketing data for their target demographic right freaking there
@@aidanmay1148 Lucasfilm doesn't give a shit about the fans. Having access to Disney's vast banks means they're never hard up for cash, so it's less about doing what WE want and more about doing what THEY want, and what they are less financially invested in, so much as egotistically invested in.
Whoa. That's actually a pretty cool take, lol. I always imagined the Clone Wars to be similar to what Thor thought of them before the PT came out and changed it, and in my headcanon the clones were evil and the Jedi fought them. In that scenario, an evil clone of Kenobi becoming the Emperor would be plausible, and would make for a pretty dope plot!
You know what? In 1977 there was tons of material suggesting the possibility that OB1 was an actual clone thus underlying the references made in his conversation with Luke about the Clone Wars! Not surprised by what you stated here thinking he was an Emperor clone! Cool stuff dude!
As a kid when Old Ben Kenobi mentioned that he fought in the "Clone Wars", I imagined like these pale beings that all looked the same and had bald heads.
I adore Star Wars EU, it is the true canon to me, but even I will admit there are some stories that don’t fit or just don’t interest me, and that’s okay because the majority of the EU stories are great. Disneys canon hardly interests me anymore and I just keep finding more EU stories to satisfy me.
Yeah, I'm with you. And as for the really weak stories of the EU, I just simply drop them from my headcanon or look over them (I'm looking at you, Crystal Star).
I think Most main EU Stories fit and LucasArts Made them fit ,they retconned some Things to make some inconsistencies Work best Showcased in the Clone wars Multimedia Project in my opinion where Star wars was the Most consistent until filoni got the free license to Bulldozer over IT without Care which enrages me because TCW Lore breaking could be easily retconned to fit Like instead of making Ahsoka anakins padawan ,make her Plot koons padawan and have them Team Up AS a padawan duo
@@laisphinto6372 I have no idea why we didn't just follow Plo Koon and Ashoka during the Clone Wars, since Anakin & Obi Wan have already been covered in the superior 2003-2005 Microseries.
I like the bantam era of the EU. Everything was fun, silly, and adventurous. They really captured the feel and wonder of the OT. After the arrival of the prequels everything in the EU went dark, nihilistic, and cynical. Thats when the EU as a whole lost me.
The EU has problems, but Heir To The Empire, Darth Bane, Republic Commando Books, Shatterpoint, Kotor, Force Unleashed, The Jedi Knight Series, Mara Jade, etc. It's all great and them and the movies are my Star Wars. 👍 P.S. Speaking of hand-to-hand combat there is one in the EU that force-wielders train in: Teras Kasi.
I dont Take the "EU Bad, Disney good" crowd serious after they Made so much fun about DARK Empire and then proceed to defend rise of skywalker Like their Life depends on it. Seriously you cannot Shit Talk DARK empire and then praise rise of skywalker which IS literally Just a shittier Version of DARK empire, DARK empire at least Had the excuse of Not having the Prequels Made yet and at least attempted to explain how the hell palpatine survived
@@laisphinto6372except it was explained how Palpatine came back in Rise of Skywalker. It was pretty obvious. Did you really need a line from a character saying exactly how it happened. Show not tell after all. But way I see it both Rise and Dark Empire sucked because both made Vader's redemption and sacrifice pointless.
@@saberiandream316 Good thing there’s the old EU and the new canon. Two separate universes, also in the end it’s up to what the fan who’s enjoying a pieces of Star Wars content says. If he/she likes something then it’s apart of the story, if they don’t like a part of the universe they can always ignore it. The Expanded Universe is so vast and filled with so many types of stories there’s something there for everyone.
The way I see it, the force is quite literally a force of nature... Like gravity, it follows a specific set of rules and never strays from those rules, despite not being sentient.
I always see the force as having many aspects and a consciousness, which is what the Jedi refer to as the will of the force Trying to be in balance with the force Where the Sith see the force as something to bend to their own devices and assert their own will on to it. I always find it fascinating though when we see other force users in the galaxy outside of the Jedi and Sith and their relationship abilities and traditions around the force.
Thor, hey (didn’t want you to think I was asking a question lol) I’d love to see more Thunderous Rambles. I always find myself wishing your regular lightning response videos would go on longer than they do so by all means, make these suckers an hour long if you want.
The weird thing is in today's standard... Vader would never be allowed to escape his past and be punished for it harshly and for all eternity, perhaps deservedly so, even if they claim Vader was redeemed in not just Luke's eyes, but The Force itself given Vader dies and Anakin becomes a Force Ghost.
People seem to conflate redemption (admitting you're wrong and changing your ways) with atonement (returning to the community). Mind you, this is not new. I'm pretty sure Bastila Shan is basically coerced to the Dark Side and doesn't do anything particularly edgy so her redemption would be easier to sell. IIRC Lucas had to explain that Vader does indeed get redeemed to Kershner when RotJ was being made.
Fun fact we wasn’t suppose to see Vader force ghost at the end. In the shooting script it was just Kenobi and Yoda. Vader dying in Luke arms was suppose to be the last time we see him. It was Howard Kazanjian idea to have his force ghost at the end and Lucas liked it. Kazanjian later regretted that decision because he believe it gave the villain too much of a happy ending.
Well... Vader and Anakin were exactly "the same"... Yes, same biological body, but 2 absolutely different, even opposite, personalities... Both were always there, but once he turned Vader took over and kept Anakin hidden and controlled, let's say... So, yeah, the fact that Vader came out was Anakin's fault, but at the end he came back and defeated Vader. At least that's how I interpret it...
Even back then if the story had been written so Vader survived, he would have been treated as a war criminal by the rest of the galaxy. As far as the Force goes, I think that saying Vader was redeemed in its eyes is basically saying that the Force is sentient and has thought processes at least somewhat similar to our own. For my part, I think of it more as a force of nature.
Love these discussions. All my friends have given up on Star Wars so your channel (mostly your channel), Star Wars Theory and Star Wars Explained is where I go to talk Star Wars with fans. Keep the Fandom alive Thor! It's greatly appreciated
That’s tough because for myself the best part of SW was the video games the Old republic which is the whole Kotor series Jedi vs Sith the all out war plus when had the Mandalorians try to conquer the Republic which to be honest probably even George Lucas himself couldn’t have came up with that idea.
Doesn't exist anymore thanks to Lucasfilm, but it won't stop them stripping the Old Republic down and rewriting it for mass consumption to ignorant normies.
Lot of nice SWEU/Legends questions. But there is one thing I need to clarify, and that is the "Sith immortality". Because that's the thing, the "immortality through dark side of the Force" is not a reward. It is a curse, like so many things that Dark Side provides. Aside from maybe the Sith Emperor/Vitiate/Valkorion, none of the supposedly immortal Sith actually achieved immortality, not in the real sense, and for most of them the price for prolonging their life was rather extreme, plunging them further and further into the behavior that ultimately doomed them. They spent so much time to maintain their fake immortality that it became their only driving force, which usually led to their own downfall and permanent death. That is if they were lucky, because sometimes their soul was either enslaved and used to fuel another's power, or it was doomed to a cursed existence of a sith spectre. And unlike the Jedi who became Force Ghosts and kept their consciousness after death, the Sith who attained this cursed existence were usually bound to a place, an ever-hungry disembodied echo, a spiritual parasite whose only chance would be to possess another living being, which was rarely successful. As for Vitiate, his attempt at immortality seemed close, expanding his power vastly and making him something curiously close to what Abeloth was, but it also wasn't permanent and final, and there could be a debate how much did it all irrepairably change his personality. Vitiate had to switch bodies constantly and also he wanted and needed MORE (a tall feat when his first attempt consumed every living thing on a planet in order to give him "just" two thousand years of life, while at the same time giving his opponents a motive so strong that it brought Jedi and Sith together mid-war), and a lot of TOR MMO stories revolve around stopping him permanently, which you eventually do. In fact, Palpatine's combination of essence transfer and cloning would have been probably the most practical forms of immortality, necessitating relatively few resources for what seemed to be decades-worth of extended life without being so obnoxiously destructive and opponent-generating, but there was of course a catch. It also needed to be maintained and as with all previous attempts the process left him vulnerable, and as with any dark side user, his actions led to his downfall.
What is the Sith's version of "Hell" called in Legends? I forgot what it was now, I remember watching a YT video on it though, it was quite insightful.
Exactly, any form of Sith immortality is usually pretty crappy and very vain. Arguably the most successful immortal would be Marka Ragnos ,-- but his immortality sucked balls because he's a ghost bound to one place. The concept of Sith ghosts has never contradicted the original idea behind why Jedi get it and the Sith don't -- since the Sith versions of it are usually pretty horrible fates. Adjunta Pall, the literal founder of the Sith, is another example. In KOTOR 2 he's literally a suffering ghost bound to his tomb.
I reread it again recently too. It's not good but it's not that bad either, personally I think Children of the Jedi is a worse EU book, just by a little bit, which I just finished rereading and started on Dark Fleet Crisis trilogy. The Bantam era is a bit of wild ride, there's some amazing books like the Thrawn trilogy and the X-Wing series and then there's so not very good books like Crystal Star, Children of the Jedi, Darksaber & New Rebellion.
Hey Thor, I really like this style! Hope we can get more like it. My question is, do you think Baylan is right? He seems to want to destroy the force, “break the cycle” of balance and unbalance. Anakin implies in TROS that he did bring balance, but at best, that only lasted for 30 years, if not less. If balance is always temporary, is destroying the force the only way to permanently stop unbalance?
Lucas said that Vader wasn’t redeemed. There is no redemption for what he did. Rather he found peace. As I understand or remember of his reasoning; Family meant more to him than anything. Yet in the past, he failed them and now was chained to the Darkside, from which he believed that he could not escape. Luke up and deciding to turn himself in, believing that there was still good in him and then sacrificing himself to Palpatine, prompted Anakin to brake his chains and cast off his master and save his son. And the irony there was that all of those years that he had longed to overthrow Palpatine for power as he believe that it was his destiny to rule the galaxy. And now he’s done that, but not for power, yet he is happy because he was finally able to save his family when they needed them the most. And with that found a moment of inner peace, possibly for one of the first times in his life, and yet he had but a few moments left to live.
Hey Thor! Loved this thunderous ramble! Ramble on you ramblin' gamblin' man! But anyways, do you think there is a possibility that being a force ghost is actually more of a curse than a gift? Or somehow both? As if they have more work to do and/or have to right some kind of wrong. Ghosts in ''real'' life stay behind because of unfinished business. I mean think about who became force ghosts. Qui-Gon: The man who found Anakin and insisted on him being trained. Obi-Wan: the man who failed Anakin, neglected his emotions, trained him as any Jedi as if following some recipe and didn't adapt to his individual needs and characteristics. Yoda: The man who led the Jedi order into the palm of the Sith. Anakin: Mass murderer. Helped the Sith take over the galaxy for almost 25 years. I am NOT saying the top 3 are evil or that everything is their fault, but BECAUSE they are so good and compassionate, they would probably feel guilty about playing a part in the Sith taking over (including Anakin at the end of RoTJ) regardless of it actually being their fault or not. Is the force punishing them? Or are they voluntarily punishing themselves due to their massive guilt? Could the guilt be what makes them ghosts and persist their selfs after death? Perhaps part of force-ghost training is confessing your sins to yourself and manifest a strong sense of guilt. This is probably not the case, but how would you feel about it if Disney went this direction with the force ghosts?
10:33 another problem, in movies most of Jedi powers aren't looking so spectacular and effective as superpowers from modern superhero media. Sometimes (especially in ep2), usage of, for example, force telekinesis is so slow, that it just looks silly.
Yeah people need to remember when Dark Empire was written we didn't really know a lot of the rules about the force and the prophecy and all of that they way we did after the prequels came out. We didn't even really know much about Palpatine.
I thought this was a great video. You certainly didn’t ramble too much. You spoke honestly and off the cuff about a variety of topics. I’d certainly be open to more of these. Thanks so much! Hope you enjoy The Acolyte.
Hey Thor, more videos like that, please 😊 My question: Do you think Vader was a good Sith? Especially in the Rebels and Bad Batch we see Palpatine looking for knowledge and pushing the boundaries of the Dark Side. To me Vader was more of a hateful servant. Except some comic books or games, we don't really see him developing the dark side on his own or trying to overthrow Sidious. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me Vader is not that much of a great Sith faithful to the Dark Side. He's rather a slave to Palpatine. Appreciate your take on that
Hey Thor, I have a question about the zombie imperial troopers and the Geonosians? (I hope I spelled it correctly) and why Hive mind and reanimating the dead through means apart from the force hasn’t been as explored through other avenues? I will be honest during that episode of the clone wars like Obi wan I was curious about how the process works and if other species exist as Hive minds or necromancers through means other than the force. I know the night sisters exist but they did it through ‘magic’. Thank you for producing your content the effort you put into it is always apparent. I hope that you continue to find joy in happiness in life and in star wars. PS more than happy to clarify if there is anything confusing about my question. If there’s another video discussing this I’ll eventually find it during my binges of your channel.
I still can't get over jjabrams writing the force awakens in six weeks & that it was accepted by disney ... the star wars golden goose throat was slit right there...such a shame.
They decided to not use Michael's script that is true. Kasdan and Abrams wrote it from scratch, JJ using A New Hope as the baseline, it is almost a remake of the 1977 film it copies so many beats. They said Arndt couldn't crack the script. His problem was Luke and Rey being in the picture together and her coming off as a guest star or sidekick when Disney wanted her as the main character. JJ's solution was to make Luke a worthless Maguffin and put him on an island. I can't believe Kennedy accepted that as a way to honor Lucas characters. There is also the idea and I don't know if it is true, Harrison only agreed to do it if they killed Han. As early as 2012 Kathy Kennedy intended for the OT heroes as nothing more than throwaway cameos, but somehow it was miscommunicated to Mark Hamill he would get top billing, run of the trilogy and a major role.
@@matthewgaudet4064 , honestly it would have been better had they just been used as cameos (they could have been the wise old people that the new characters turn to for advice). At least then the characters would have not been ruined.
I really enjoy the "Thunderous Ramble." I treated it like a podcast episode and listened while I did yard work. Even longer ones would be great. Great stuff! 🙏
I agree largely with the commenter at 9:16 regarding power creep in Star Wars; while I do think that Rey had some Mary Sue-esque qualities, one of the most obnoxious parts of the sequels for me personally was the way the force was used as both spectacle and plot convenience, and generally expanded arbitrarily in it's capacity and abilities on the whims of people who I think, to put this as politely as possible, have a rather superficial imagination. This isn't to entirely dismiss the value of superheroes as a genre or as compelling characters, but inevitably superhero franchises are almost always concered entirely with what the superheroes and supervillians are doing, creating a realm of demigods with only limited or very contrived influence from the world of 'mortals'. In contrast, Star Wars has Jedi as components of a vast ecosystem of characters, cultures, and factions which may at any point have equal importance or impact to the Jedi or Sith as individuals or groups, and though nobody would deny that force users of various sorts have extraordinary abilities, the most significant of which are probably their limited recognition and enhanced reflexes or ability to sense emotions of people or human environments, rather than their telekinesis, they are not so extraordinary as to preclude others from equalling or even surpassing them in combat, wisdom, etc. Certainly I think a fully trained Mandalorian or Echani warrior, a Teras Kasi practioner, a particularly wily and skilled bounty hunter, and plenty of others can take on a Jedi or otheflr force user and have a generally equal chance of winning or losing. That force abilities don't create an entirely new class of beings beyond the rest of the galaxy's ability to equal is part of what makes Star Wars so interesting and grounded. Dedicated training in the force brings great power and ability, but so does great dedication to technological innovation (which is about as strong a theme of the human experience as any) or to martial ability. The uniqueness of the Jedi does not diminish the uniqueness or significance of other people or groups in the Star Wars galaxy in the way that the power of a pantheon of superheroes might diminish the the importance or impact of, say, a cop or a soldier in those narratives, though it’s worth noting that those stories aren't l built to do that and aren't obligated to try, it's just a different thing. Star Wars as per Lucas was always a story of all sorts of people living, fighting, and dying on the same battlefields, whether soldier, diplomat, smuggler, spy, Jedi, or otherwise, and power creep to the point of turning Jedi and force users into superheroes, into demigods, undermines this crucial element of story and world building.
Wow didn't expect to see my question being answered on here! But glad you did, I do like these type of videos you should do more cause it's pretty interesting seeing you answer them unfiltered.
Hey Thor, I was recently thinking of The Duel of Fates and what would have happened if, let's say, Obi-Wan died, and Qui-Gon lived. What do you think would have happened at the end of Ep 2 in this case? More specifically what would Qui-Gon think of the war? Would he have left the order? I'd imagine seeing the Jedi become soldiers for the Republic would have been the last straw for him. He would have probably taken Anakin with him too right? And do you think any Jedi at all left the order for this reason? I think it would be very interesting to explore this moral dilemma for the Jedi.
Hey Thor. I was just curious on what is the ETA regarding your sequel trilogy rewrite project. I really liked the opening crawl you posted as well as all the concept art your team created, but all that content was four years ago. I am just wondering if you still plan to release the project, or at least share what had been made of it if it was abandoned. All the ideas were really interesting, and I'd hate for them to be forgotten.
Star Wars was adventures of Luke, Han and Leia to me when I was younger, then when prequels came out they were adventures of Luke's and Leia's mom and dad, and also Obi-Wan. Later I found books and games that were continuing their story, while also introducing and focusing on new characters like Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade and so on. There was also Old Republic that had nothing to do with Luke, Han and Leia but it was great on it's own too and I was happy to read stuff from that era too. Then came Disney and... I don't care no more. I just hunt down EU stuff I'm missing in my collection.
I enjoyed your discussion of the EU I am a fan and loved all the books even if they were not quite coherent in their time lines. I hope you do more of these videos I really enjoyed it.
@@saberiandream316 , yeah they even worked some of the Marvel and even Russ Manning that really weren't a part of 90s Eu back into canon, I'm not sure if they did with Splinter of the Mind's eye. Filoni abandoned the old canon right from season 1 of Clone Wars. He always says George told me it isn't canon ignore it. It is a reason I prefer the Micro series from Genndy.
Hey Thor, I've been wondering about droid sentience lately and why Star Wars rarely takes it seriously. I even think that people applauding clone sentience and individuality is a bit of a double standard when those same people dismiss droids as merely extensions of their creators. Even though Rex famously denies this, the fact is that clones are programmed to obey orders without question and are manufactured. Most clones only have limited independent thinking and a clone being able to live outside a military is incredibly rare. The only reason they develop individuality is because of experience. But the funny thing is, droids develop individuality for the same reason. The only difference is that droids regularly have their memories wiped specifically to prevent them from developing individuality and potentially rebelling. There's a moment in Heir to the Empire where Luke is asked why he has never wiped C-3PO's memories in all the years he's known him, and Luke reveals that he's uncomfortable with the idea of stripping his friend of individuality. And I don't know if you have played KOTOR 2 yet, but there's a mission where HK-47 argues with HK-50, who dismisses him as obsolete. But HK-47 argues that he is superior because he has developed individuality and has given himself a higher purpose and meaning because he has never had his mind wiped. These examples show that droid sentience should not be played for laughs so much in the franchise. In fact, I think the galaxy is overdue for a galaxy-wide droid revolution just to show people that sentient droids deserve equal treatment. This is actually addressed in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Measure of a Man" where Lt. Data's rights are debated because he's an android and I wish Star Wars had something similar. What do you think?
I wouldn’t mind making the old EU (Legends) an alternate timeline in a greater multiverse. Just release new content under the legends banner. Hell, I’d love to make a Legends story about people trying to invade the “Prime” (Disney) timeline, by effectively creating an interdimensional battering ram to break into the “world between worlds;” regardless of the negative impact that would create for the greater multiverse.
As long as there's very little crossover between the universes. Multiverse is like time travel or mind control. It MUST be handled with care or you're going to get dumber and dumber stories. I personally just want the EU timeline to keep expanding, I don't want it polluted by Disney's timeline.
@@saberiandream316 It would acknowledge the multiverse. If I made it, it would involve a surviving remnant of zealots from the Rakatan Infinite Empire being the main villains, with their force-based technology being able to create this type of portal to brute force their way into another timeline.
@@andrewgardiner1077 I don't want them to change the EU's timeline. That's what Filoni has done, and that's what Disney is doing with the EU they cherry-pick.
Hey Thor: in Episode 3 Palpatine says “once more the Sith will rule the Galaxy”, and George Lucas has said that the Sith did rule the Galaxy a long time ago, but this is never really shown or mentioned (to my knowledge) in any of the Lucasfilm or Disney expanded materials. How do you feel about this? Do you think this idea could be explored further or did everyone just forget that he said that? Love your videos, thank you.
for me, with the balance of good and evil, I think it's a little silly cuz evil in itself is not a thing. Evil is the absence of, or corruption of good. evil needs good to exist, but good does not need evil to exist, good is natural. True balance would be the harmony between happiness and suffering and letting both coexist where they're needed.
I HATE the "Skywalker saga" handle. KK came up with that handle to try and paint episode 7 - 9 as being a part of the story that ENDED in Return of the Jedi.
I DESPISE the normie idea that you can just take an idea from the EU, plop it into the Disney-canon timeline, completely overhaul the context to conform to Disney Star Wars and what they've already established, and that's "bringing back the EU." No it isn't. Look at Thrawn. Thrawn isn't even the same character anymore because they changed his story. He's not "back" at all, he's just a Chiss sharing the same name in an alternate universe. Unfortunately, those normies outnumber us twenty-to-one and they're the only fans Lucasfilm wants as customers, not the most loyal EU fans. It is a damn tragedy, but that's Disney Star Wars for ya.
I despise Disney Thrawn with every fiber of my being. I hope Mara stays in the EU and never gets adapted because she won't be Luke's wife, I have seen fans want her to be an inquisitor in the Disney timeline.
19:40 This attitude is what has always infuriated me. Everyone sees things differently I understand that, how I ALWAYS saw this though was that I believe it was Crucial, for Disney to actually Honor the Skywalker Saga, by telling George's Treatments, faithful to his very ideas, adapted on the big screen properly! And then it would be done. Some may have hated it (because ofcourse you can never please everyone) but I strongly believe MOST us Fans would have simply loved whatever George's treatment ideas were (midiclorians and all). And by that point it would have all truly worked out really well for Disney. They would have been majority praised and respected by most the Fandom, for doing right by Lucas, telling his story to it's completeness. And THEN, we could have ALL MOVED ON FROM THE SKYWALKERS era and Lineage. Because by that point all the Fans would have been eager to explore whole new ideas, eras and stories in the Galaxy Far, Far Away. But Disney were very ignorant and just spiteful the way they went about this. And now they've only ended up dividing and alienating most of us fans. I'm one of the fans out there that has just become so apathetic, I know even care about moving on from the Skywalker Saga into whole new stories, because I simply have no faith whatsoever that Disney will do things right. They ust can't help but keep banging on everyday about being "Diverse" and "Representative of EVERYONE", every single frickin day, with every new show; and i'm like - look, IF you just actually stop focusing on that and just try to tell a awesome, original story. IF it's really Good and Fans love it, then most EVERYONE will be into it. Younger fans are going to love "new stories" no matter what they are because subconsciously to them, just the very fact it's *New* will feel representative to them, it being made in the now, in their time. Disney and Kennedy's Lucasfilm of today seem to see EVERYTHING that is "Old starwars" as being like "representative" of THE PATRIARCHY. And this is soo delusional. Tell me i'm wrong on this though. Why do you think Kennedy completely dissmissed the EU in it's entirety?
Disney would never have dropped the connection to the Skywalker Saga because they need the memberberries to bring people into seats... after the prequels, Star Wars was not in a good place in the overall mainstream, so they had to rely on nostalgia and pulling the OT actors for cameos and THEN also tell their version of Star Wars
Yep. Love this more unscripted video. Feels more like we’re chatting I liked your view on Vader’s redemption It’s not that one act absolves all his evil, rather he connects to another human again
So then, Thor, do you believe that Luke's character progression in the EU makes logical sense for him? I believe it does, but I have the benefit of having read the EU, whereas others may not or have their own opinions on it. As an aside but still related note, but when I see Luke called a Marty Stu in order to defend Rey, I usuaIly see them use the EU as proof because he is so powerful in it. Though I think the thing people forget or don't realize is that having lots of power doesn't mean you are automatically a Mary Sue/Marty Stu. What makes a character one is that they not only are written with no character flaws, but also are universally loved even by the bad guys without a rhyme or reason, know things they shouldn't that derail the plot and also actively go and dismantle immersion by all these things I think people quantify it only to having lots of powers because they don't typically look beyond a surface level. In TFA, I'd argue that Rey is competently written in terms of flaws and inexperience and the story does have some justification for her beating Kylo Ren. She even has one of the most realistic reaction after seeing that Force vision. Namely "That shit was scary and I'm getting the fuck out of here". But then TLJ throws all that out and tries it's best to make sure Rey is right even when she's doing stupid things, making choices that go against the character previously established, like her understandable fear of the Force. All interesting things about her were stripped away and all she got out of it was a better hairdo and outfit that she immediately discards in the next film. I think it's hard to be able to make a strong argument when one doesn't have full context or understanding about these things.
I disagree about Rey being “competently written”, but you are correct about Luke. Literature Devil has several well-made long-form videos defining the traits and indicators of a Mary Sue. One of the best is a direct comparison of Luke and Rey: ua-cam.com/video/JN8Qm5o0oSY/v-deo.htmlsi=0DlSG4pXH7CIaaEw
Rey is ultimately a microcosm of the main problem with the Sequels: a lack of vision. Rey was clearly being pulled in multiple directions. Either one could work if developed properly, but they can’t be done simultaneously. Rey being able to pull powers out of her ass in TFA with no training could work if it was revealed she was special and had her memories wiped, so her powers are actually taken from her subconscious. Rey being a nobody who has to prove herself a hero rather than relying on her parents in TLJ can also work, but that means she has to grow and overcome hardships to gain her power. By doing one in TFA and the other in TLJ, it turned her into a Mary Sue who’s powerful for no reason. It’s why ultimately the TLJ should receive most of the blame for derailing the trilogy. It doesn’t matter whether you think the direction TLJ took was better or not, TFA came out first and committed to one direction, so the sequel should develop that rather than veering off.
How many people keep asking for Luke's academy? Why do they want that when every student we see is going to die or join Kylo Ren? Whereas in the EU, we literally have several stories with Luke's academy, and it doesn't end in fire and failure.
the E.U had some weird. outright HORRIFYING stories. and some bad ones. but it was still a great story. Disney has mostly shit. some decent with a slight sprinkling of good
Hey Thor, For all the flaws prequels had, I've always had a somewhat affinity for Ben/Kylo. I know most mock him for his impulsivity being akin to an angsty teenager, when even adults actually roadrage or enable conflicts for less. Another point for trashing the character is '' he turned to the Dark Side because he has daddy and mommy issues - Boo-boo " Which to me is actually pretty serious. Sure it's not like he lost his mother to the Tusken or went through war yaddy yaddy yadda but parenting really has issues, especially nowadays where the kernel of family is very much in peril. Hell Anakin's fall can in no small part be attributed to lack of father figure. As a guy who struggles with temper, I feel how ridiculous losing your mind can be, but it's a real issue that runs deep and is absolutely debilitating as well as hard to fight.
Hey Thor, I mean no offence to you - I love your videos and I appreciate having found a UA-camr that shows the "Grey Jedi" for what they are - but I need to correct you on something. I noticed that someone asked how Anakin became a Force Ghost and you gave the "Return Of The Jedi: From A Certain Point Of View" response. I'd like to point out though, that that book is WRONG. George Lucas himself answered how Anakin became a Force Ghost in The Clone Wars Season 3's Mortis Trilogy - a story arc that was also supposed to reinforce what the Prequels had established about "Balance in the Force" being Light Side dominance. In the arc, Son takes Anakin to the Well of the Dark Side where he shows Anakin visions of his future and tempts him with the Dark Side - a test that isn't so different from what Yoda later goes through on Dagobah, Wellspring of Life, and Moraband, or what Luke goes through on Dagobah, or what Rey goes through on Arch-To. And while Anakin fails his test, joins Son, and falls to the Dark Side, we already know from all the way back in The Empire Strikes Back that you don't have to pass the test at the time of your training. On another note, I mentioned that this arc was supposed to show the folly of trying to balance light and dark. Well, Father tries to balance the two and control destiny only to have everything fall apart around him as the Dak Side consumes his world. In the end, Father sees his errors, but it's too late.
Hey Thor, I was wondering why members of the separatists didn't speak out against the atrocities committed by Dooku and Grevious. I mean in the clone wars show, not all separatists members were as cruel as Nute Gunray and its hard to believe they were completely oblivious to the planets that were attacked non provoked by the separatists like Ryloth being a prime example.
I like to kind of meld EU and cannon in my head. For example I love the CW tv show but also love the republic commando novels so I have this sort of melded head cannon especially concerning order 66
I really like thinking that the organic chips aren’t the only reason the clones turned but was also partially the original reason - that being they were bred for obedience and basically had that mentality drilled into them from the beginning. Adds more depth to the characters and ultimately their choices in my mind
1:35 I got to say, i love reading "X-Wing Solo Command" but it's sequel "The Courtship of Princess Leia" is just horible. Zsinj deserved a better ending; preferably in battle.
Since I did not begin reading the EU until I was an adult (and thus understood it was not George Lucas writing the stories) I always viewed the EU as non-canon (this was before Disney made it officially not canon). Thus, any story I did not like in the EU, I could just ignore (and instead enjoy the stories I did like). It is harder today because Disney claims everything is canon so you are forced to accept bad stories as part of the overall story (and while there was bad EU content, the Disney era has produced a higher percentage of bad content)
I like Dark Empire. I don't think Palpatine's return undermines the Chosen One prophecy at all. If anything, I feel the Chosen One prophecy bloats Anakin's role in the overall narrative into a level of importance he never should have had. The story worked a lot better when he was a random but strong Jedi who turned to the dark side, not a messianic figure that the Jedi put all their hope in. And shit, Dark Empire ENHANCES the prequels as well as the original trilogy. I'll tell you how. For one thing, it is consistent to the prequels that the Sith would try and cheat the natural process of death, as it was depicted in Revenge of the Sith, and essence transfer is a well-established Sith technique in the EU. As to how this ties into the OT? From a purely normie perspective, Palpatine is risking his very LIFE on turning Luke to the dark side, it makes no sense why he'd want Luke to strike him down. For a master strategist like Palpatine, merely _trusting_ that Vader would come to his aid doesn't fly, and it betrays a level of trust that the Sith aren't known for with their disciples. But when you realize that Palpatine has clone bodies waiting in the wings, suddenly it all clicks. Palpatine would have let Luke destroy that body, come back, and then swooped in to claim him from Darth Vader. He wasn't risking his life in a foolish gamble, he had covered all his bases. The hate against Dark Empire is extremely overblown. I'm not a George Lucas purist. I think the Chosen One prophecy is unnecessary. Star Wars thrived at its best outside his direct control.
i think my favourite parts of the eu are the x-wing books, i jedi, karen traviss' republic commando novels + mando lore.....and the og tales of the jedi
Luke showed his father *mercy* from *sympathy* and Vader accepted that mercy. From there, Vader demonstrated true love (selfless action on the behalf of others) even if only for his flesh and blood. The two made peace from there. Is that *redemption?* Who decides what constitutes redemption? Cosmically speaking: he did become a Force Ghost, but that may only indicate a changing of mind for sure.
Ill answer that second question for you Thor, Theres a reason that Vaders funeral pyre was held out in the wilderness and almost in secret. He is redeemed in his actions, he is redeemed to himself and those thay deeply understand the force. But not in the eyes of the galaxies citizenry.
As far as the Sith being immortal, if you pay attention, there is always a downside like decaying flesh or something like that. The jedi, on the other hand don't have to deal with that.
Stover's novelisation of Revenge Of The Sith is superior to the movie imo. Heck, I'd say even a game like KOTOR 2 and the fascinating way it explored its themes and the force is superior to many if not all the movies and shows we've gotten.
I like the idea of Anakin not literally being "the chosen one." He was just a kid who happened to be strong in the force, and inadvertently BECAME the chosen one when Qui Gon decided to take him to become a Jedi. I like to think that anyone who was strong in the force like Anakin could have potentially become the chosen one if the circumstances were different, rather than Anakin _specifically_ being destined to become the chosen one (what I mean is, for all we know there could have been many other kids out their with a midichlorian count similar to Anakin, but the Jedi just never happened to stumble upon them, if that makes any sense). I'm sure many will disagree with me though, because how dare I suggest Anakin wouldn't be destined to become the chosen one. 😅
Hey Thor, I get that there are people who don't like midichlorions, saying they apparently break the universe and ruin the force. Some prefer the idea that anyone can be a force user if you believe in it enough. I've been thinking on that for a while and personally, my feelings on it are the same feelings you have about Grey Jedi. It's an idea I can't stand and I'd even go as far as to say I hate it and that is for a number of reasons. The first is my biggest issue with this idea and that is the massive plot hole this could cause, arguably one bigger than the holdo manuver. If everyone has the potential to use the force, then why don't we see more Force users than just the jedi and sith? Why don't we see bounty hunters use it, or why don't vader or the emperor train their military to use the force? Instead of manufacturing a clone army, why didn't the jedi train regular people to use the force against battle droids? I'd argue that would give them pretty good odds. Also, instead of thousands of jedi, why aren't there millions? Another reason is that I feel this undermines the importance of the jedi. I know you don't want jedi to become superheroes, and believe me, I don't either, but one attribute they have that can apply to the jedi is that the reason they stand up to great evils or a major threat is because no one else can. If everyone has the capability of becoming a Force user, why do they even need the jedi? Why even protect a galaxy when it can protect itself. It also makes the jedi seem selfish for not sharing this power with other people so they won't need them anymore. It could've been done a thousand generations ago and it probably would have prevented conflicts or prepare people for them. The last reason is that I find it less spiritually meaningful. Imagine the honor and privilege of being gifted a power most people don't have. By making it accessible to everyone you essentially water it down and it becomes less special. It's what syndrome said in the incredibles, "If everyone's super, no one will be." Overall, I find "you don't choose the force, the force chooses you" more meaningful than "you get the force, you get the force, and you get the force." Plus, with this I think you can make a pretty interesting dynamic between the jedi and sith. The jedi believe that because the force chose them, that gives them a sense of responsibility to protect the galaxy and safeguard the peace(which would be the Force's intention), whereas the sith have a sense of entitlement, seeing themselves above others and that because the force chose them, that makes them the rightful rullers of the galaxy. It plays perfectly into the theme of selfless vs selfish. I also want to say that by having force users be a minority in a galaxy of trillions, it better explains why han didn't believe in the force. Before he became a sith, Darth Bane believed that tales of the jedi were greatly exaggerated and were the stuff of legend, which is pretty easy to assume if most people can't use the force. Before I end this comment, I want to say yes, I am aware of the 'karate' quote that George Lucas said in 1983. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think he has said anything else to support this idea since. I think it's more likely that he may have changed his mind overtime, because the prequels seem to contradict this idea. Where I stand is, if it was said a long time before the rest of the story was finished and it didn't make it into the final product as a whole, then it can be disregarded. Overall, thoughts?
Hey Thor, do you think The Clone Wars is an overrated show? The main purpose is to show Anakin's fall to the dark side, but really, I think only the crisis on Naboo arc actually does that well. Otherwise, all it does is occasionally show Anakin get angry, which we've already seen before and doesn't develop his character or the fall to the dark side any further. As well, some arcs such as the Vanished, the Martez Sisters, the Droids, and most episodes of season 1 are just bad. There is certainly stuff in The Clone Wars that I love. The Takeover of Mandalore, Umbara, and Clone Conspiracy arcs are all top tier Star Wars in my opinion, and Maul, Ahsoka, and Rex are great characters (in this show at least), but it fails to provide a lot of meaningful character development to Anakin, which was what it was made for. Despite this, it's still praised as one of the best pieces of Star Wars content. Some even consider it the best. I'd appreciate your opinion on this. Thanks. Also, I would like to see these longer lightning response videos (thunderous ramble, if you will) in the future.
Hey Thor, how would you think Star Wars would be different if a classic author like C.S. Lewis or J.R.R. Tolkien or a great modern author like J.K. Rowling wrote it? In particular, how would the themes be different? For C.S. Lewis the villains would probably be humorless rather than having a sick sense of humor, while the theme of selfless vs. selfish would be replaced by a theme about doing harm because you truly believe it to be righteous being especially dangerous.
It’s difficult to say how it would be different because the authors’s backgrounds and influences would be different. For example, Lewis and Tolkien would approach the story from a traditional Christian and Western view, and even between them there would be massive differences. Suffice it to say, it would be nothing like what we have now.
For the giants and sandbox topic, you can stand with them but not be on their level. Like Stan Lee made Spider-Man, but can you really say Sam Raimi is on the same level in regards to Spider-Man or the superhero genre
Compared to the dismal Fan Fiction state "Disney Starwars" is in now, I can actually appreciate ALL of the EU, even the stories that may seem abit weird, I just really appreciate how *Creative* those old authors were AND there's no kind of woke messaging in the EU stories. I'm currently collecting the OLD EU books, NOT the "Legends" label ones. I'm buying all the battered, worn o.g. EU books off Ebay, every month. I've currently spent a good £200 buying up loads of Volumes of books and comics. I'm gonna get a big Bookcase with the blue strobe lighting to put them all in. It's gonna be my shrine to REAL *Star Wars* when it was great.
If it’s something you dislike you’re discussing you could call it a “Thor Thpot” (ok now I’m actually gonna watch the video and maybe make a legitimate suggestion lol)
I never had a problem with the Emperor returning in Dark Empire. But then again, Anakin (Darth Vader) was not a "chosen one" back then. Anakin was just a strong, zealous guy who decided to be evil.
@@Drums_of_Liberation Not really. He saved his son. That was the main reason why he gave his life. It wasn't to fulfill a prophecy or to save the galaxy or to redeem himself.
Yes, the Skywalkers is where everything began but star wars is way bigger than that now but it's seems to never move on, I just want to jump 5000 years in the future start anew
Even if it did jump forward that far the Skywalker line would still rule everything. Best way to keep Skywalkers out is to make the Old Republic Era the focus
@@Drums_of_Liberation I would prefer if they did something 100% original for the Disney canon Old Republic timeline. But Disney Star Wars is too creatively bankrupt to try that.
3:15 And was just badly written. The Clone Wars show was utter trash and spit on all the work previous creators did for that time period of Star Wars. 😑
He's completely overrated. There are better EU writers. And unfortunately, Zahn sold out to Disney, and he's helping make the Disney-canon books profitable. I would prefer if he didn't do that. I WANT the Disney books to fail. Maybe then we can have new EU as Legends instead of Disney's narrow "do it this way and no other" approach.
Another thing about Anakin redemption is you have to remember that Vader was Anakin's punishment and prison for the time Vader was in control, Anakin didn't live a high life after his terrible actions, he suffered and lost all he wanted.
Yes, and I also think that Vader/Anakin knew that Palpatine's force lightning would damage his suit, leading to his death, but he didn't care as long as he could save Luke.
The mofo was smothered in fire and spent the next few decades in a prosthetic hell. Nothing encapsulates this more perfectly than James Luceno's Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader novel, set immediately after Revenge of the Sith, and part of the Clone Wars Multimedia Project that is far superior to what Dave Filoni did over on TCW.
Thor's Thunderstorm is a perfect name for these rapid response videos.
EU did had some problems, but it still had alot of good Star Wars stories.
That’s what count not every multimedia project can be 100% good but atleast let the majority be good. Disneys canon is 90% bad and that’s why I ignore it now
There were some problems because new movies and shows changed things, but there was a lot more heart and soul. Plus, the characters were respected.
We need a new narrative to counter "the EU was 90% trash" talking points TCW and Disney fanboys love to shove down our throats. "The good outweighed the bad." THAT should be the new narrative.
Also, you already have feedback on what works and what doesn’t. What fans like and dislike. There’s literally marketing data for their target demographic right freaking there
@@aidanmay1148 Lucasfilm doesn't give a shit about the fans. Having access to Disney's vast banks means they're never hard up for cash, so it's less about doing what WE want and more about doing what THEY want, and what they are less financially invested in, so much as egotistically invested in.
I remember when I first saw Empire Strikes Back I thought Alec Guinness in makeup was playing the emperor so I thought he was a clone of Obi Wan lol
Whoa. That's actually a pretty cool take, lol. I always imagined the Clone Wars to be similar to what Thor thought of them before the PT came out and changed it, and in my headcanon the clones were evil and the Jedi fought them. In that scenario, an evil clone of Kenobi becoming the Emperor would be plausible, and would make for a pretty dope plot!
You know what? In 1977 there was tons of material suggesting the possibility that OB1 was an actual clone thus underlying the references made in his conversation with Luke about the Clone Wars! Not surprised by what you stated here thinking he was an Emperor clone! Cool stuff dude!
As a kid when Old Ben Kenobi mentioned that he fought in the "Clone Wars", I imagined like these pale beings that all looked the same and had bald heads.
I adore Star Wars EU, it is the true canon to me, but even I will admit there are some stories that don’t fit or just don’t interest me, and that’s okay because the majority of the EU stories are great. Disneys canon hardly interests me anymore and I just keep finding more EU stories to satisfy me.
Same. 👍
Yeah, I'm with you. And as for the really weak stories of the EU, I just simply drop them from my headcanon or look over them (I'm looking at you, Crystal Star).
I think Most main EU Stories fit and LucasArts Made them fit ,they retconned some Things to make some inconsistencies Work best Showcased in the Clone wars Multimedia Project in my opinion where Star wars was the Most consistent until filoni got the free license to Bulldozer over IT without Care which enrages me because TCW Lore breaking could be easily retconned to fit Like instead of making Ahsoka anakins padawan ,make her Plot koons padawan and have them Team Up AS a padawan duo
@@laisphinto6372 I have no idea why we didn't just follow Plo Koon and Ashoka during the Clone Wars, since Anakin & Obi Wan have already been covered in the superior 2003-2005 Microseries.
I like the bantam era of the EU. Everything was fun, silly, and adventurous. They really captured the feel and wonder of the OT. After the arrival of the prequels everything in the EU went dark, nihilistic, and cynical. Thats when the EU as a whole lost me.
The EU has problems, but Heir To The Empire, Darth Bane, Republic Commando Books, Shatterpoint, Kotor, Force Unleashed, The Jedi Knight Series, Mara Jade, etc. It's all great and them and the movies are my Star Wars. 👍
P.S. Speaking of hand-to-hand combat there is one in the EU that force-wielders train in: Teras Kasi.
I dont Take the "EU Bad, Disney good" crowd serious after they Made so much fun about DARK Empire and then proceed to defend rise of skywalker Like their Life depends on it. Seriously you cannot Shit Talk DARK empire and then praise rise of skywalker which IS literally Just a shittier Version of DARK empire, DARK empire at least Had the excuse of Not having the Prequels Made yet and at least attempted to explain how the hell palpatine survived
@@laisphinto6372 I'm currently reading some EU books starting with the Clone Wars Era and hopefully I'll get to Dark Empire eventually.
@@laisphinto6372except it was explained how Palpatine came back in Rise of Skywalker. It was pretty obvious. Did you really need a line from a character saying exactly how it happened. Show not tell after all. But way I see it both Rise and Dark Empire sucked because both made Vader's redemption and sacrifice pointless.
The Darth Bane books can't exist thanks to Filoni and TCW.
@@saberiandream316 Good thing there’s the old EU and the new canon. Two separate universes, also in the end it’s up to what the fan who’s enjoying a pieces of Star Wars content says. If he/she likes something then it’s apart of the story, if they don’t like a part of the universe they can always ignore it. The Expanded Universe is so vast and filled with so many types of stories there’s something there for everyone.
The way I see it, the force is quite literally a force of nature... Like gravity, it follows a specific set of rules and never strays from those rules, despite not being sentient.
I always see the force as having many aspects and a consciousness, which is what the Jedi refer to as the will of the force
Trying to be in balance with the force
Where the Sith see the force as something to bend to their own devices and assert their own will on to it.
I always find it fascinating though when we see other force users in the galaxy outside of the Jedi and Sith and their relationship abilities and traditions around the force.
Thor, hey (didn’t want you to think I was asking a question lol) I’d love to see more Thunderous Rambles. I always find myself wishing your regular lightning response videos would go on longer than they do so by all means, make these suckers an hour long if you want.
The weird thing is in today's standard... Vader would never be allowed to escape his past and be punished for it harshly and for all eternity, perhaps deservedly so, even if they claim Vader was redeemed in not just Luke's eyes, but The Force itself given Vader dies and Anakin becomes a Force Ghost.
People seem to conflate redemption (admitting you're wrong and changing your ways) with atonement (returning to the community).
Mind you, this is not new. I'm pretty sure Bastila Shan is basically coerced to the Dark Side and doesn't do anything particularly edgy so her redemption would be easier to sell. IIRC Lucas had to explain that Vader does indeed get redeemed to Kershner when RotJ was being made.
@@mpnuorva Good distinction
Fun fact we wasn’t suppose to see Vader force ghost at the end. In the shooting script it was just Kenobi and Yoda. Vader dying in Luke arms was suppose to be the last time we see him. It was Howard Kazanjian idea to have his force ghost at the end and Lucas liked it. Kazanjian later regretted that decision because he believe it gave the villain too much of a happy ending.
Well... Vader and Anakin were exactly "the same"... Yes, same biological body, but 2 absolutely different, even opposite, personalities... Both were always there, but once he turned Vader took over and kept Anakin hidden and controlled, let's say...
So, yeah, the fact that Vader came out was Anakin's fault, but at the end he came back and defeated Vader.
At least that's how I interpret it...
Even back then if the story had been written so Vader survived, he would have been treated as a war criminal by the rest of the galaxy. As far as the Force goes, I think that saying Vader was redeemed in its eyes is basically saying that the Force is sentient and has thought processes at least somewhat similar to our own. For my part, I think of it more as a force of nature.
Love these discussions. All my friends have given up on Star Wars so your channel (mostly your channel), Star Wars Theory and Star Wars Explained is where I go to talk Star Wars with fans. Keep the Fandom alive Thor! It's greatly appreciated
That’s tough because for myself the best part of SW was the video games the Old republic which is the whole Kotor series Jedi vs Sith the all out war plus when had the Mandalorians try to conquer the Republic which to be honest probably even George Lucas himself couldn’t have came up with that idea.
Doesn't exist anymore thanks to Lucasfilm, but it won't stop them stripping the Old Republic down and rewriting it for mass consumption to ignorant normies.
Lot of nice SWEU/Legends questions.
But there is one thing I need to clarify, and that is the "Sith immortality". Because that's the thing, the "immortality through dark side of the Force" is not a reward. It is a curse, like so many things that Dark Side provides.
Aside from maybe the Sith Emperor/Vitiate/Valkorion, none of the supposedly immortal Sith actually achieved immortality, not in the real sense, and for most of them the price for prolonging their life was rather extreme, plunging them further and further into the behavior that ultimately doomed them. They spent so much time to maintain their fake immortality that it became their only driving force, which usually led to their own downfall and permanent death. That is if they were lucky, because sometimes their soul was either enslaved and used to fuel another's power, or it was doomed to a cursed existence of a sith spectre. And unlike the Jedi who became Force Ghosts and kept their consciousness after death, the Sith who attained this cursed existence were usually bound to a place, an ever-hungry disembodied echo, a spiritual parasite whose only chance would be to possess another living being, which was rarely successful.
As for Vitiate, his attempt at immortality seemed close, expanding his power vastly and making him something curiously close to what Abeloth was, but it also wasn't permanent and final, and there could be a debate how much did it all irrepairably change his personality. Vitiate had to switch bodies constantly and also he wanted and needed MORE (a tall feat when his first attempt consumed every living thing on a planet in order to give him "just" two thousand years of life, while at the same time giving his opponents a motive so strong that it brought Jedi and Sith together mid-war), and a lot of TOR MMO stories revolve around stopping him permanently, which you eventually do.
In fact, Palpatine's combination of essence transfer and cloning would have been probably the most practical forms of immortality, necessitating relatively few resources for what seemed to be decades-worth of extended life without being so obnoxiously destructive and opponent-generating, but there was of course a catch. It also needed to be maintained and as with all previous attempts the process left him vulnerable, and as with any dark side user, his actions led to his downfall.
What is the Sith's version of "Hell" called in Legends? I forgot what it was now, I remember watching a YT video on it though, it was quite insightful.
Exactly, any form of Sith immortality is usually pretty crappy and very vain.
Arguably the most successful immortal would be Marka Ragnos ,-- but his immortality sucked balls because he's a ghost bound to one place.
The concept of Sith ghosts has never contradicted the original idea behind why Jedi get it and the Sith don't -- since the Sith versions of it are usually pretty horrible fates.
Adjunta Pall, the literal founder of the Sith, is another example. In KOTOR 2 he's literally a suffering ghost bound to his tomb.
Ha! I'm actually reading the Crystal Star again now. And it's not as bad as I remembered, because now.... I've seen "The Last Jedi" 😂
I reread it again recently too. It's not good but it's not that bad either, personally I think Children of the Jedi is a worse EU book, just by a little bit, which I just finished rereading and started on Dark Fleet Crisis trilogy. The Bantam era is a bit of wild ride, there's some amazing books like the Thrawn trilogy and the X-Wing series and then there's so not very good books like Crystal Star, Children of the Jedi, Darksaber & New Rebellion.
Listening to thor talk is great! Longer videos for sure!
Hey Thor, I really like this style! Hope we can get more like it.
My question is, do you think Baylan is right? He seems to want to destroy the force, “break the cycle” of balance and unbalance. Anakin implies in TROS that he did bring balance, but at best, that only lasted for 30 years, if not less. If balance is always temporary, is destroying the force the only way to permanently stop unbalance?
Darth Traya certainly thought so
Would love to see more like this Thor!
Lucas said that Vader wasn’t redeemed. There is no redemption for what he did. Rather he found peace.
As I understand or remember of his reasoning;
Family meant more to him than anything. Yet in the past, he failed them and now was chained to the Darkside, from which he believed that he could not escape. Luke up and deciding to turn himself in, believing that there was still good in him and then sacrificing himself to Palpatine, prompted Anakin to brake his chains and cast off his master and save his son. And the irony there was that all of those years that he had longed to overthrow Palpatine for power as he believe that it was his destiny to rule the galaxy. And now he’s done that, but not for power, yet he is happy because he was finally able to save his family when they needed them the most. And with that found a moment of inner peace, possibly for one of the first times in his life, and yet he had but a few moments left to live.
Hey Thor!
Loved this thunderous ramble! Ramble on you ramblin' gamblin' man!
But anyways, do you think there is a possibility that being a force ghost is actually more of a curse than a gift? Or somehow both? As if they have more work to do and/or have to right some kind of wrong. Ghosts in ''real'' life stay behind because of unfinished business. I mean think about who became force ghosts.
Qui-Gon: The man who found Anakin and insisted on him being trained.
Obi-Wan: the man who failed Anakin, neglected his emotions, trained him as any Jedi as if following some recipe and didn't adapt to his individual needs and characteristics.
Yoda: The man who led the Jedi order into the palm of the Sith.
Anakin: Mass murderer. Helped the Sith take over the galaxy for almost 25 years.
I am NOT saying the top 3 are evil or that everything is their fault, but BECAUSE they are so good and compassionate, they would probably feel guilty about playing a part in the Sith taking over (including Anakin at the end of RoTJ) regardless of it actually being their fault or not. Is the force punishing them? Or are they voluntarily punishing themselves due to their massive guilt? Could the guilt be what makes them ghosts and persist their selfs after death? Perhaps part of force-ghost training is confessing your sins to yourself and manifest a strong sense of guilt. This is probably not the case, but how would you feel about it if Disney went this direction with the force ghosts?
10:33 another problem, in movies most of Jedi powers aren't looking so spectacular and effective as superpowers from modern superhero media. Sometimes (especially in ep2), usage of, for example, force telekinesis is so slow, that it just looks silly.
Yeah people need to remember when Dark Empire was written we didn't really know a lot of the rules about the force and the prophecy and all of that they way we did after the prequels came out. We didn't even really know much about Palpatine.
I thought this was a great video. You certainly didn’t ramble too much. You spoke honestly and off the cuff about a variety of topics. I’d certainly be open to more of these. Thanks so much! Hope you enjoy The Acolyte.
Hey Thor, more videos like that, please 😊 My question: Do you think Vader was a good Sith? Especially in the Rebels and Bad Batch we see Palpatine looking for knowledge and pushing the boundaries of the Dark Side. To me Vader was more of a hateful servant. Except some comic books or games, we don't really see him developing the dark side on his own or trying to overthrow Sidious. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me Vader is not that much of a great Sith faithful to the Dark Side. He's rather a slave to Palpatine. Appreciate your take on that
Hey Thor, I have a question about the zombie imperial troopers and the Geonosians? (I hope I spelled it correctly) and why Hive mind and reanimating the dead through means apart from the force hasn’t been as explored through other avenues? I will be honest during that episode of the clone wars like Obi wan I was curious about how the process works and if other species exist as Hive minds or necromancers through means other than the force. I know the night sisters exist but they did it through ‘magic’.
Thank you for producing your content the effort you put into it is always apparent. I hope that you continue to find joy in happiness in life and in star wars.
PS more than happy to clarify if there is anything confusing about my question. If there’s another video discussing this I’ll eventually find it during my binges of your channel.
I still can't get over jjabrams writing the force awakens in six weeks & that it was accepted by disney ... the star wars golden goose throat was slit right there...such a shame.
It's Disney Star Wars, where disappointment and frustration is the only way.
They decided to not use Michael's script that is true. Kasdan and Abrams wrote it from scratch, JJ using A New Hope as the baseline, it is almost a remake of the 1977 film it copies so many beats. They said Arndt couldn't crack the script. His problem was Luke and Rey being in the picture together and her coming off as a guest star or sidekick when Disney wanted her as the main character. JJ's solution was to make Luke a worthless Maguffin and put him on an island. I can't believe Kennedy accepted that as a way to honor Lucas characters. There is also the idea and I don't know if it is true, Harrison only agreed to do it if they killed Han. As early as 2012 Kathy Kennedy intended for the OT heroes as nothing more than throwaway cameos, but somehow it was miscommunicated to Mark Hamill he would get top billing, run of the trilogy and a major role.
@@matthewgaudet4064 , honestly it would have been better had they just been used as cameos (they could have been the wise old people that the new characters turn to for advice). At least then the characters would have not been ruined.
I really enjoy the "Thunderous Ramble."
I treated it like a podcast episode and listened while I did yard work. Even longer ones would be great.
Great stuff! 🙏
I agree largely with the commenter at 9:16 regarding power creep in Star Wars; while I do think that Rey had some Mary Sue-esque qualities, one of the most obnoxious parts of the sequels for me personally was the way the force was used as both spectacle and plot convenience, and generally expanded arbitrarily in it's capacity and abilities on the whims of people who I think, to put this as politely as possible, have a rather superficial imagination.
This isn't to entirely dismiss the value of superheroes as a genre or as compelling characters, but inevitably superhero franchises are almost always concered entirely with what the superheroes and supervillians are doing, creating a realm of demigods with only limited or very contrived influence from the world of 'mortals'.
In contrast, Star Wars has Jedi as components of a vast ecosystem of characters, cultures, and factions which may at any point have equal importance or impact to the Jedi or Sith as individuals or groups, and though nobody would deny that force users of various sorts have extraordinary abilities, the most significant of which are probably their limited recognition and enhanced reflexes or ability to sense emotions of people or human environments, rather than their telekinesis, they are not so extraordinary as to preclude others from equalling or even surpassing them in combat, wisdom, etc. Certainly I think a fully trained Mandalorian or Echani warrior, a Teras Kasi practioner, a particularly wily and skilled bounty hunter, and plenty of others can take on a Jedi or otheflr force user and have a generally equal chance of winning or losing.
That force abilities don't create an entirely new class of beings beyond the rest of the galaxy's ability to equal is part of what makes Star Wars so interesting and grounded. Dedicated training in the force brings great power and ability, but so does great dedication to technological innovation (which is about as strong a theme of the human experience as any) or to martial ability. The uniqueness of the Jedi does not diminish the uniqueness or significance of other people or groups in the Star Wars galaxy in the way that the power of a pantheon of superheroes might diminish the the importance or impact of, say, a cop or a soldier in those narratives, though it’s worth noting that those stories aren't l built to do that and aren't obligated to try, it's just a different thing.
Star Wars as per Lucas was always a story of all sorts of people living, fighting, and dying on the same battlefields, whether soldier, diplomat, smuggler, spy, Jedi, or otherwise, and power creep to the point of turning Jedi and force users into superheroes, into demigods, undermines this crucial element of story and world building.
Wow didn't expect to see my question being answered on here! But glad you did, I do like these type of videos you should do more cause it's pretty interesting seeing you answer them unfiltered.
Hey Thor, I was recently thinking of The Duel of Fates and what would have happened if, let's say, Obi-Wan died, and Qui-Gon lived.
What do you think would have happened at the end of Ep 2 in this case? More specifically what would Qui-Gon think of the war? Would he have left the order? I'd imagine seeing the Jedi become soldiers for the Republic would have been the last straw for him. He would have probably taken Anakin with him too right? And do you think any Jedi at all left the order for this reason?
I think it would be very interesting to explore this moral dilemma for the Jedi.
This style is great. At this point I enjoy discussing Star Wars more than watching new Star Wars
Seriously
Hey Thor. I was just curious on what is the ETA regarding your sequel trilogy rewrite project. I really liked the opening crawl you posted as well as all the concept art your team created, but all that content was four years ago. I am just wondering if you still plan to release the project, or at least share what had been made of it if it was abandoned. All the ideas were really interesting, and I'd hate for them to be forgotten.
Star Wars was adventures of Luke, Han and Leia to me when I was younger, then when prequels came out they were adventures of Luke's and Leia's mom and dad, and also Obi-Wan. Later I found books and games that were continuing their story, while also introducing and focusing on new characters like Corran Horn, Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade and so on. There was also Old Republic that had nothing to do with Luke, Han and Leia but it was great on it's own too and I was happy to read stuff from that era too. Then came Disney and... I don't care no more. I just hunt down EU stuff I'm missing in my collection.
Appreciating this meaty video
I love this format Thor! Great stuff.
I enjoyed your discussion of the EU I am a fan and loved all the books even if they were not quite coherent in their time lines. I hope you do more of these videos I really enjoyed it.
The EU had continuity until 2008.
@@saberiandream316 , yeah they even worked some of the Marvel and even Russ Manning that really weren't a part of 90s Eu back into canon, I'm not sure if they did with Splinter of the Mind's eye. Filoni abandoned the old canon right from season 1 of Clone Wars. He always says George told me it isn't canon ignore it. It is a reason I prefer the Micro series from Genndy.
Hey Thor, I've been wondering about droid sentience lately and why Star Wars rarely takes it seriously. I even think that people applauding clone sentience and individuality is a bit of a double standard when those same people dismiss droids as merely extensions of their creators. Even though Rex famously denies this, the fact is that clones are programmed to obey orders without question and are manufactured. Most clones only have limited independent thinking and a clone being able to live outside a military is incredibly rare. The only reason they develop individuality is because of experience. But the funny thing is, droids develop individuality for the same reason. The only difference is that droids regularly have their memories wiped specifically to prevent them from developing individuality and potentially rebelling. There's a moment in Heir to the Empire where Luke is asked why he has never wiped C-3PO's memories in all the years he's known him, and Luke reveals that he's uncomfortable with the idea of stripping his friend of individuality. And I don't know if you have played KOTOR 2 yet, but there's a mission where HK-47 argues with HK-50, who dismisses him as obsolete. But HK-47 argues that he is superior because he has developed individuality and has given himself a higher purpose and meaning because he has never had his mind wiped. These examples show that droid sentience should not be played for laughs so much in the franchise. In fact, I think the galaxy is overdue for a galaxy-wide droid revolution just to show people that sentient droids deserve equal treatment.
This is actually addressed in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Measure of a Man" where Lt. Data's rights are debated because he's an android and I wish Star Wars had something similar.
What do you think?
I wouldn’t mind making the old EU (Legends) an alternate timeline in a greater multiverse.
Just release new content under the legends banner.
Hell, I’d love to make a Legends story about people trying to invade the “Prime” (Disney) timeline, by effectively creating an interdimensional battering ram to break into the “world between worlds;” regardless of the negative impact that would create for the greater multiverse.
Legends Luke being horrified at see the ghost of Jake would be comedy gold😂
As long as there's very little crossover between the universes. Multiverse is like time travel or mind control. It MUST be handled with care or you're going to get dumber and dumber stories. I personally just want the EU timeline to keep expanding, I don't want it polluted by Disney's timeline.
@@saberiandream316
It would acknowledge the multiverse.
If I made it, it would involve a surviving remnant of zealots from the Rakatan Infinite Empire being the main villains, with their force-based technology being able to create this type of portal to brute force their way into another timeline.
@@andrewgardiner1077 I don't want them to change the EU's timeline. That's what Filoni has done, and that's what Disney is doing with the EU they cherry-pick.
Never liked time travel in Star Wars when it happened in the EU, Filoni's use of it was stupid Ahsoka should have stayed dead if Luke stays dead.
More thunderous rambles? That’s… why I’m here!
Love this video style.
I enjoyed this video quite a lot,you tackled a good range of queries ❤
Hey Thor: in Episode 3 Palpatine says “once more the Sith will rule the Galaxy”, and George Lucas has said that the Sith did rule the Galaxy a long time ago, but this is never really shown or mentioned (to my knowledge) in any of the Lucasfilm or Disney expanded materials. How do you feel about this? Do you think this idea could be explored further or did everyone just forget that he said that? Love your videos, thank you.
More thunderous rambles please!
Hey Thor, would love to know what your thoughts on flow-walking are. Do you like it or think it opens a Pandora's box.
This is a great format, I dig it!
More thunderstorms please this was great
for me, with the balance of good and evil, I think it's a little silly cuz evil in itself is not a thing. Evil is the absence of, or corruption of good. evil needs good to exist, but good does not need evil to exist, good is natural. True balance would be the harmony between happiness and suffering and letting both coexist where they're needed.
I HATE the "Skywalker saga" handle. KK came up with that handle to try and paint episode 7 - 9 as being a part of the story that ENDED in Return of the Jedi.
22:30 I go with the original EpIII canon, Palpatine made him to take advantage of the Jedi's prophecy.
I DESPISE the normie idea that you can just take an idea from the EU, plop it into the Disney-canon timeline, completely overhaul the context to conform to Disney Star Wars and what they've already established, and that's "bringing back the EU." No it isn't. Look at Thrawn. Thrawn isn't even the same character anymore because they changed his story. He's not "back" at all, he's just a Chiss sharing the same name in an alternate universe. Unfortunately, those normies outnumber us twenty-to-one and they're the only fans Lucasfilm wants as customers, not the most loyal EU fans. It is a damn tragedy, but that's Disney Star Wars for ya.
I despise Disney Thrawn with every fiber of my being. I hope Mara stays in the EU and never gets adapted because she won't be Luke's wife, I have seen fans want her to be an inquisitor in the Disney timeline.
the long form ramble was fun, thanks thor
Thanks for the answer!
19:40 This attitude is what has always infuriated me. Everyone sees things differently I understand that, how I ALWAYS saw this though was that I believe it was Crucial, for Disney to actually Honor the Skywalker Saga, by telling George's Treatments, faithful to his very ideas, adapted on the big screen properly! And then it would be done.
Some may have hated it (because ofcourse you can never please everyone) but I strongly believe MOST us Fans would have simply loved whatever George's treatment ideas were (midiclorians and all). And by that point it would have all truly worked out really well for Disney. They would have been majority praised and respected by most the Fandom, for doing right by Lucas, telling his story to it's completeness. And THEN, we could have ALL MOVED ON FROM THE SKYWALKERS era and Lineage.
Because by that point all the Fans would have been eager to explore whole new ideas, eras and stories in the Galaxy Far, Far Away. But Disney were very ignorant and just spiteful the way they went about this. And now they've only ended up dividing and alienating most of us fans.
I'm one of the fans out there that has just become so apathetic, I know even care about moving on from the Skywalker Saga into whole new stories, because I simply have no faith whatsoever that Disney will do things right. They ust can't help but keep banging on everyday about being "Diverse" and "Representative of EVERYONE", every single frickin day, with every new show; and i'm like - look, IF you just actually stop focusing on that and just try to tell a awesome, original story. IF it's really Good and Fans love it, then most EVERYONE will be into it.
Younger fans are going to love "new stories" no matter what they are because subconsciously to them, just the very fact it's *New* will feel representative to them, it being made in the now, in their time. Disney and Kennedy's Lucasfilm of today seem to see EVERYTHING that is "Old starwars" as being like "representative" of THE PATRIARCHY. And this is soo delusional. Tell me i'm wrong on this though. Why do you think Kennedy completely dissmissed the EU in it's entirety?
Disney would never have dropped the connection to the Skywalker Saga because they need the memberberries to bring people into seats... after the prequels, Star Wars was not in a good place in the overall mainstream, so they had to rely on nostalgia and pulling the OT actors for cameos and THEN also tell their version of Star Wars
Yep. Love this more unscripted video. Feels more like we’re chatting
I liked your view on Vader’s redemption
It’s not that one act absolves all his evil, rather he connects to another human again
So then, Thor, do you believe that Luke's character progression in the EU makes logical sense for him? I believe it does, but I have the benefit of having read the EU, whereas others may not or have their own opinions on it.
As an aside but still related note, but when I see Luke called a Marty Stu in order to defend Rey, I usuaIly see them use the EU as proof because he is so powerful in it. Though I think the thing people forget or don't realize is that having lots of power doesn't mean you are automatically a Mary Sue/Marty Stu. What makes a character one is that they not only are written with no character flaws, but also are universally loved even by the bad guys without a rhyme or reason, know things they shouldn't that derail the plot and also actively go and dismantle immersion by all these things
I think people quantify it only to having lots of powers because they don't typically look beyond a surface level. In TFA, I'd argue that Rey is competently written in terms of flaws and inexperience and the story does have some justification for her beating Kylo Ren. She even has one of the most realistic reaction after seeing that Force vision. Namely "That shit was scary and I'm getting the fuck out of here". But then TLJ throws all that out and tries it's best to make sure Rey is right even when she's doing stupid things, making choices that go against the character previously established, like her understandable fear of the Force. All interesting things about her were stripped away and all she got out of it was a better hairdo and outfit that she immediately discards in the next film.
I think it's hard to be able to make a strong argument when one doesn't have full context or understanding about these things.
I disagree about Rey being “competently written”, but you are correct about Luke. Literature Devil has several well-made long-form videos defining the traits and indicators of a Mary Sue. One of the best is a direct comparison of Luke and Rey: ua-cam.com/video/JN8Qm5o0oSY/v-deo.htmlsi=0DlSG4pXH7CIaaEw
@JoRoq1 I only think she's competently written in one movie, but I still don't equate that with "good".
I'll check those videos out.
Rey is ultimately a microcosm of the main problem with the Sequels: a lack of vision. Rey was clearly being pulled in multiple directions. Either one could work if developed properly, but they can’t be done simultaneously. Rey being able to pull powers out of her ass in TFA with no training could work if it was revealed she was special and had her memories wiped, so her powers are actually taken from her subconscious. Rey being a nobody who has to prove herself a hero rather than relying on her parents in TLJ can also work, but that means she has to grow and overcome hardships to gain her power.
By doing one in TFA and the other in TLJ, it turned her into a Mary Sue who’s powerful for no reason. It’s why ultimately the TLJ should receive most of the blame for derailing the trilogy. It doesn’t matter whether you think the direction TLJ took was better or not, TFA came out first and committed to one direction, so the sequel should develop that rather than veering off.
@@gameragodzilla You hit the nail on the head.
How many people keep asking for Luke's academy? Why do they want that when every student we see is going to die or join Kylo Ren? Whereas in the EU, we literally have several stories with Luke's academy, and it doesn't end in fire and failure.
the E.U had some weird. outright HORRIFYING stories. and some bad ones. but it was still a great story. Disney has mostly shit. some decent with a slight sprinkling of good
Hey Thor,
For all the flaws prequels had, I've always had a somewhat affinity for Ben/Kylo.
I know most mock him for his impulsivity being akin to an angsty teenager, when even adults actually roadrage or enable conflicts for less.
Another point for trashing the character is '' he turned to the Dark Side because he has daddy and mommy issues - Boo-boo "
Which to me is actually pretty serious. Sure it's not like he lost his mother to the Tusken or went through war yaddy yaddy yadda but parenting really has issues, especially nowadays where the kernel of family is very much in peril.
Hell Anakin's fall can in no small part be attributed to lack of father figure.
As a guy who struggles with temper, I feel how ridiculous losing your mind can be, but it's a real issue that runs deep and is absolutely debilitating as well as hard to fight.
Hey Thor,
I mean no offence to you - I love your videos and I appreciate having found a UA-camr that shows the "Grey Jedi" for what they are - but I need to correct you on something.
I noticed that someone asked how Anakin became a Force Ghost and you gave the "Return Of The Jedi: From A Certain Point Of View" response. I'd like to point out though, that that book is WRONG.
George Lucas himself answered how Anakin became a Force Ghost in The Clone Wars Season 3's Mortis Trilogy - a story arc that was also supposed to reinforce what the Prequels had established about "Balance in the Force" being Light Side dominance.
In the arc, Son takes Anakin to the Well of the Dark Side where he shows Anakin visions of his future and tempts him with the Dark Side - a test that isn't so different from what Yoda later goes through on Dagobah, Wellspring of Life, and Moraband, or what Luke goes through on Dagobah, or what Rey goes through on Arch-To. And while Anakin fails his test, joins Son, and falls to the Dark Side, we already know from all the way back in The Empire Strikes Back that you don't have to pass the test at the time of your training.
On another note, I mentioned that this arc was supposed to show the folly of trying to balance light and dark. Well, Father tries to balance the two and control destiny only to have everything fall apart around him as the Dak Side consumes his world. In the end, Father sees his errors, but it's too late.
Hey Thor, I was wondering why members of the separatists didn't speak out against the atrocities committed by Dooku and Grevious. I mean in the clone wars show, not all separatists members were as cruel as Nute Gunray and its hard to believe they were completely oblivious to the planets that were attacked non provoked by the separatists like Ryloth being a prime example.
Hi ! Question: were can i ....ask you questions?
In the comments
Just start your comment with “Hey Thor”
Thanks!
nice video today👍👍
I like to kind of meld EU and cannon in my head. For example I love the CW tv show but also love the republic commando novels so I have this sort of melded head cannon especially concerning order 66
I really like thinking that the organic chips aren’t the only reason the clones turned but was also partially the original reason - that being they were bred for obedience and basically had that mentality drilled into them from the beginning. Adds more depth to the characters and ultimately their choices in my mind
1:35 I got to say, i love reading "X-Wing Solo Command" but it's sequel "The Courtship of Princess Leia" is just horible. Zsinj deserved a better ending; preferably in battle.
Since I did not begin reading the EU until I was an adult (and thus understood it was not George Lucas writing the stories) I always viewed the EU as non-canon (this was before Disney made it officially not canon). Thus, any story I did not like in the EU, I could just ignore (and instead enjoy the stories I did like). It is harder today because Disney claims everything is canon so you are forced to accept bad stories as part of the overall story (and while there was bad EU content, the Disney era has produced a higher percentage of bad content)
First Questioner calling out Dark Empire gave me a hell of a whiplash…
Still better than the sequel trilogy.
I like Dark Empire. I don't think Palpatine's return undermines the Chosen One prophecy at all. If anything, I feel the Chosen One prophecy bloats Anakin's role in the overall narrative into a level of importance he never should have had. The story worked a lot better when he was a random but strong Jedi who turned to the dark side, not a messianic figure that the Jedi put all their hope in. And shit, Dark Empire ENHANCES the prequels as well as the original trilogy. I'll tell you how.
For one thing, it is consistent to the prequels that the Sith would try and cheat the natural process of death, as it was depicted in Revenge of the Sith, and essence transfer is a well-established Sith technique in the EU. As to how this ties into the OT? From a purely normie perspective, Palpatine is risking his very LIFE on turning Luke to the dark side, it makes no sense why he'd want Luke to strike him down. For a master strategist like Palpatine, merely _trusting_ that Vader would come to his aid doesn't fly, and it betrays a level of trust that the Sith aren't known for with their disciples. But when you realize that Palpatine has clone bodies waiting in the wings, suddenly it all clicks. Palpatine would have let Luke destroy that body, come back, and then swooped in to claim him from Darth Vader. He wasn't risking his life in a foolish gamble, he had covered all his bases.
The hate against Dark Empire is extremely overblown. I'm not a George Lucas purist. I think the Chosen One prophecy is unnecessary. Star Wars thrived at its best outside his direct control.
Hey Thor: What do you think about Jacen Solo fall to the dark side because of Lumiya's manipulations?🤔
I don't know if he's read that far. I'm still working my way through LOTF.
@@GAdmThrawn I still want to hear his thoughts)
Couch couch. I'm looking at you Callista Trilogy👀
i think my favourite parts of the eu are the x-wing books, i jedi, karen traviss' republic commando novels + mando lore.....and the og tales of the jedi
Luke showed his father *mercy* from *sympathy* and Vader accepted that mercy. From there, Vader demonstrated true love (selfless action on the behalf of others) even if only for his flesh and blood. The two made peace from there. Is that *redemption?* Who decides what constitutes redemption? Cosmically speaking: he did become a Force Ghost, but that may only indicate a changing of mind for sure.
Ill answer that second question for you Thor,
Theres a reason that Vaders funeral pyre was held out in the wilderness and almost in secret. He is redeemed in his actions, he is redeemed to himself and those thay deeply understand the force. But not in the eyes of the galaxies citizenry.
As far as the Sith being immortal, if you pay attention, there is always a downside like decaying flesh or something like that. The jedi, on the other hand don't have to deal with that.
I liked this video. Keep it up.
The eu was at least consistent unlike the sequels.
Stover's novelisation of Revenge Of The Sith is superior to the movie imo.
Heck, I'd say even a game like KOTOR 2 and the fascinating way it explored its themes and the force is superior to many if not all the movies and shows we've gotten.
Thor - aren't lightsabers *not* dangerous weapons in Disney star wars?
I call them tickle sticks!
I like the idea of Anakin not literally being "the chosen one." He was just a kid who happened to be strong in the force, and inadvertently BECAME the chosen one when Qui Gon decided to take him to become a Jedi. I like to think that anyone who was strong in the force like Anakin could have potentially become the chosen one if the circumstances were different, rather than Anakin _specifically_ being destined to become the chosen one (what I mean is, for all we know there could have been many other kids out their with a midichlorian count similar to Anakin, but the Jedi just never happened to stumble upon them, if that makes any sense).
I'm sure many will disagree with me though, because how dare I suggest Anakin wouldn't be destined to become the chosen one. 😅
But george lucas said anakin was the chosen one.
@@King-Hrolf Until he decided to say LEIA was the Chosen One, lol.
Hey Thor, I get that there are people who don't like midichlorions, saying they apparently break the universe and ruin the force. Some prefer the idea that anyone can be a force user if you believe in it enough. I've been thinking on that for a while and personally, my feelings on it are the same feelings you have about Grey Jedi. It's an idea I can't stand and I'd even go as far as to say I hate it and that is for a number of reasons. The first is my biggest issue with this idea and that is the massive plot hole this could cause, arguably one bigger than the holdo manuver. If everyone has the potential to use the force, then why don't we see more Force users than just the jedi and sith? Why don't we see bounty hunters use it, or why don't vader or the emperor train their military to use the force? Instead of manufacturing a clone army, why didn't the jedi train regular people to use the force against battle droids? I'd argue that would give them pretty good odds. Also, instead of thousands of jedi, why aren't there millions?
Another reason is that I feel this undermines the importance of the jedi. I know you don't want jedi to become superheroes, and believe me, I don't either, but one attribute they have that can apply to the jedi is that the reason they stand up to great evils or a major threat is because no one else can. If everyone has the capability of becoming a Force user, why do they even need the jedi? Why even protect a galaxy when it can protect itself. It also makes the jedi seem selfish for not sharing this power with other people so they won't need them anymore. It could've been done a thousand generations ago and it probably would have prevented conflicts or prepare people for them.
The last reason is that I find it less spiritually meaningful. Imagine the honor and privilege of being gifted a power most people don't have. By making it accessible to everyone you essentially water it down and it becomes less special. It's what syndrome said in the incredibles, "If everyone's super, no one will be." Overall, I find "you don't choose the force, the force chooses you" more meaningful than "you get the force, you get the force, and you get the force." Plus, with this I think you can make a pretty interesting dynamic between the jedi and sith. The jedi believe that because the force chose them, that gives them a sense of responsibility to protect the galaxy and safeguard the peace(which would be the Force's intention), whereas the sith have a sense of entitlement, seeing themselves above others and that because the force chose them, that makes them the rightful rullers of the galaxy. It plays perfectly into the theme of selfless vs selfish.
I also want to say that by having force users be a minority in a galaxy of trillions, it better explains why han didn't believe in the force. Before he became a sith, Darth Bane believed that tales of the jedi were greatly exaggerated and were the stuff of legend, which is pretty easy to assume if most people can't use the force.
Before I end this comment, I want to say yes, I am aware of the 'karate' quote that George Lucas said in 1983. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think he has said anything else to support this idea since. I think it's more likely that he may have changed his mind overtime, because the prequels seem to contradict this idea. Where I stand is, if it was said a long time before the rest of the story was finished and it didn't make it into the final product as a whole, then it can be disregarded. Overall, thoughts?
Thors Thunderball!
A thorerstorm.
@@Alpha_bit_co_isa_terror_org No, a Thunderball.
@@daviddyster4145 So lame. Thunder is a sound, nothing tangible from which to make a ball.
@@Alpha_bit_co_isa_terror_org I was referring to the James Bond movie Thunderball, from 1965.
Hey Thor, do you think The Clone Wars is an overrated show?
The main purpose is to show Anakin's fall to the dark side, but really, I think only the crisis on Naboo arc actually does that well. Otherwise, all it does is occasionally show Anakin get angry, which we've already seen before and doesn't develop his character or the fall to the dark side any further. As well, some arcs such as the Vanished, the Martez Sisters, the Droids, and most episodes of season 1 are just bad. There is certainly stuff in The Clone Wars that I love. The Takeover of Mandalore, Umbara, and Clone Conspiracy arcs are all top tier Star Wars in my opinion, and Maul, Ahsoka, and Rex are great characters (in this show at least), but it fails to provide a lot of meaningful character development to Anakin, which was what it was made for. Despite this, it's still praised as one of the best pieces of Star Wars content. Some even consider it the best.
I'd appreciate your opinion on this. Thanks.
Also, I would like to see these longer lightning response videos (thunderous ramble, if you will) in the future.
Hey Thor, how would you think Star Wars would be different if a classic author like C.S. Lewis or J.R.R. Tolkien or a great modern author like J.K. Rowling wrote it? In particular, how would the themes be different? For C.S. Lewis the villains would probably be humorless rather than having a sick sense of humor, while the theme of selfless vs. selfish would be replaced by a theme about doing harm because you truly believe it to be righteous being especially dangerous.
Since when is JK Rowling a great writer?
That is thought provoking
It’s difficult to say how it would be different because the authors’s backgrounds and influences would be different. For example, Lewis and Tolkien would approach the story from a traditional Christian and Western view, and even between them there would be massive differences.
Suffice it to say, it would be nothing like what we have now.
@@muchanadziko6378She's widely considered a great author, although I think she's overrated.
@@lukeskywalker81160 she’s wildly considered a person who invented a world and story that many people love
That’s not the same as being a great writer
For the giants and sandbox topic, you can stand with them but not be on their level. Like Stan Lee made Spider-Man, but can you really say Sam Raimi is on the same level in regards to Spider-Man or the superhero genre
Compared to the dismal Fan Fiction state "Disney Starwars" is in now, I can actually appreciate ALL of the EU, even the stories that may seem abit weird, I just really appreciate how *Creative* those old authors were AND there's no kind of woke messaging in the EU stories. I'm currently collecting the OLD EU books, NOT the "Legends" label ones. I'm buying all the battered, worn o.g. EU books off Ebay, every month. I've currently spent a good £200 buying up loads of Volumes of books and comics. I'm gonna get a big Bookcase with the blue strobe lighting to put them all in. It's gonna be my shrine to REAL *Star Wars* when it was great.
I initially read the title as talking about the European Union and was _very_ confused for a moment...
"Thor's rolling thunder"
If it’s something you dislike you’re discussing you could call it a “Thor Thpot” (ok now I’m actually gonna watch the video and maybe make a legitimate suggestion lol)
I never had a problem with the Emperor returning in Dark Empire. But then again, Anakin (Darth Vader) was not a "chosen one" back then. Anakin was just a strong, zealous guy who decided to be evil.
It was still stupid. Even without the Chosen One status Palpatine's return made Anakin's sacrifice and redemption pointless in the grand scheme
@@Drums_of_Liberation Not really. He saved his son. That was the main reason why he gave his life. It wasn't to fulfill a prophecy or to save the galaxy or to redeem himself.
To be fair, while I’m not a fan of legends, I know it’s miles better than the Sequels. I just love making Legends fans angry, lol.
What I see is the dumbest thing in Disney Star Wars is also the dumbest thing in Legends which is Palpatine coming back to life
Dark empire is bad ass storyline
Yes, the Skywalkers is where everything began but star wars is way bigger than that now but it's seems to never move on, I just want to jump 5000 years in the future start anew
Even if it did jump forward that far the Skywalker line would still rule everything. Best way to keep Skywalkers out is to make the Old Republic Era the focus
@@Drums_of_Liberation I would prefer if they did something 100% original for the Disney canon Old Republic timeline. But Disney Star Wars is too creatively bankrupt to try that.
3:15 And was just badly written.
The Clone Wars show was utter trash and spit on all the work previous creators did for that time period of Star Wars. 😑
The Force is basically Brahman.
Burton and Nolan are by no means bums
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: The Palpatine clone idea was always stupid. I don’t care where it comes from
not long enough
All eu is great
Nothing is perfect, but at least there were no political agendas in the eu.
Did you read the EU? Tenel Ka's training accident that costs her her arm could be seen as an allegory for gun control.
@@saberiandream316 🤣
Timothy Zahn couldn't write his name in the snow with his piss.
He's completely overrated. There are better EU writers. And unfortunately, Zahn sold out to Disney, and he's helping make the Disney-canon books profitable. I would prefer if he didn't do that. I WANT the Disney books to fail. Maybe then we can have new EU as Legends instead of Disney's narrow "do it this way and no other" approach.