Fantastic! This is the thought process I had years ago, well before computer cobtrol. Mostly timing, cam selection, and gear ratio considerations. Thank you VERY much for takjng the time to produce this jewel. --Fink
Good stuff! I'm a DIY street tuner myself (Ford Spanish Oaks ECU using VCT....09 Ford Mustang GT w\ 4.6L V8) & I'm not on your level but I looked at this concept by simply using a gasoline constant total burn time rate in crank degrees of 40* max (I understand that this isn't the best.....but if you don't have access to a dyno, then you gotta do what you can do to keep from just throwing a lot of mud against a wall to then try to see what sticks..........) against the actual calc'd piston position in bore from TDC according to rotational crank degrees that matches up w\ the fuel burn time in crank degrees w\ an optimal target of 10* ATDC for max cyl pressure generation & I deemed from all this that any spark timing in excess of 20* BTDC (calc'd piston position at same CA is .140" from TDC putting calc'd piston position at 10* ATDC at .03" from TDC across 30* CA of fuel burn time......used Wallace Racing's Piston Position Calculator) is potentially creating what I believed was excess parasitic pumping loss so I stopped advancing any spark timing in BKT\MBTspark timing maps after 22* BTDC & started advancing etarding engine cam IVC timing thru VCT mapping as needed to adjust the dynamic compression side instead to increase\decrease the actual total safe cyl pressure as needed.......as long as I didn't negatively disturb the airflow thru the cam's IVO-EVC overlap triangle timing around best TQ @ 17*-20* VCT cam retard timing (I use DESC 2 Emissions & Volumetric Efficiency software to run VE calcs off datalog data to make sure that I don't mess it up)........after setting A\F to proper ratio in OL PE fuel map & monitoring the knock sensors for knock. So far, from all my datalog data gathering after each reflash & test (I'm using HPTuners as well), this crude scheme is producing some pretty good HP\TQ results (I use the HP equation in line w\ the ECU's EBKTQ calc......the HPTuner HP\Dyno math graph in VCM Scanner..........again, gotta use what you got at your disposal) down in Mexico while at the same time is also producing some stellar emissions results across the board (I monitor the Cat CE Ratio results thru the ECU's IM Readiness Mode 6 Self Check reports using Forscan over time running MagnaFlow #5461336 CARB-cert TWC cats.........most think this is measuring the cat's efficiency alone but IMHO in reality it is actually measuring the engine's operating efficiency thru a set of EPA certified legal cats as the only gasses a cat can process are what is sent into them thru the engine's exhaust post combustion.......the more efficient the engine is at burning the A/F it ingests, the LESS HC, CO & NOx the cats have to process\break up thus the engine in turn is producing\extracting more HP & TQ from the A/F it has burned thus the cat's operational CE Ratio numerical result is lower until the max total produced exhaust poundage referenced by VE% starts driving the CE ratio upwards from sheer exhaust volume starting to overwhelm the cats ability--or capacity--to handle it........avg current Cat CE Ratio is running around .050, max achievable CE Ratio efficiency is .000 along w\ max threshold for emissions passage is .660 running a set of FRPP Hot Rod cams w\ Kooks 1 5/8" LTH's @ 93% VE using all MY period correct emissions settings in tune calibration thus no tuning "tricks" being applied\used). This also gives me tactical feedback on how well (or not) I'm tuning........ I especially LOVED your gasoline burn rate spreadsheet...........that really opened my eyes & helped verify that I was actually going in the right direction........even if my method(s) are ham fisted & very crude!
@@SilverSurfer77 Yes I intend to do that...........if I can find a shop that will rent out dyno time so I can do the tuning myself.........this is practically non-existent in my neck of the woods thus why I'm doing this w\ my crude methods......... I know that the ECU OS calc's TQ based off airmass using the MBT spark advance\spark advance correction tables which isn't the same as dyno calc TQ using the weighted roller w\ eddy brake setting a resistance factor then measuring the load against a strain gauge from the angular velocity of the roller created by the engine TQ in a 1-to-1 trans gear ratio in steady state to then calc HP (follows James Watt's original TQ equation to then calc HP). So I also use DynoSim 6 software (simulates an engine dyno) to back check the modeling to flesh all this out as best I can do to try to check off all the boxes I can w\o being on a chassis dyno.
@@dalelockett2619 Yeah I have the same problem here. Shops don't want to rent out dyno time and they are only interesting in you paying them to tune the car on the dyno. I had one shop tell me since they didn't do the build they don't even want my business. I suppose that is a symptom of having too many customers (good for them I guess). Anywhoo I am about ready to buy a tandem axle trailer, flip it upside down, and use that the basis for a home made dyno.
@@SilverSurfer77 I'd like to have a copy of your Fuel Burn spreadsheet for my own personal use.............how do I go about getting it, if it is available? Let me know...........
Its always surprising to me that the channels with the most quality information dont seem to get as many views as... we'll just say less informative channels. I operate an engine dyno 5 days a week, and more often than not am running with cylinder pressure transducers and combustion analysis hardware and high speed data acquisition. It's nice to see people promote proper ignition timing... its a pretty rare thing unfortunately. Smooth ignition tables are important, and there are a variety of reasons each cell in a timing table isnt just parked at MBT. VE tables on the other hand... so many people think they need to be these big, arcing, smooth, pretty graphs. Thats generally not how air flows through an engine. Intake runner length, IAT, atmospheric conditions... many things influence airflow. It is not perfectly smooth. Even fuel rail dynamics can affect VE tables. And these things are also found by running with things such as a laminar flow element to measure actual airflow. In my opinion, a perfectly smooth VE table is not a realistic representation of airflow. But thats not what most youtube tuners would have you believe. Being lucky enough (or unlucky if it doesnt interest a person) to calibrate engines with measured air flow, measured fuel flow, measured cylinder pressure, on an eddy current dyno, and the ability to run at any point for hours on end, makes calibrating an engine almost elementary. This has brought to light two things for me though... There are a whole lot of people out there, good intentions or not, spreading a whole lot of misinformation about how engines work. And secondly, "tuning" an engine with nothing but a laptop making pulls in a car and looking at spark plugs feels totally blind lol. But, you do what you can with the information at hand. Thanks for the great videos, its nice to see someone presenting good information! Also, I think a PV diagram would have been an excellent accompaniment to your explaining of cylinder pressure vs exhaust valve opening.
Thank you for the kind words and support! Sounds like you have an awesome job, i am totally jealous! I think you should make a video, I would love to hear the tales from the dyno cell! Any chance you can elaborate on the comment you made, " there are a variety of reasons each cell in a timing table isnt just parked at MBT"? Also, important question, are you seeing 12-15º ATDC peak cylinder pressure to make best torque with you modern transducers?
@@SilverSurfer77 So a few reasons timing might not be set at MBT in every cell in the table would be knock margin, smoothing or blending for drivability purposes, and the effect timing has on NOX emissions. Now of course all of this varies greatly depending on application. An oem manufacturer is going to have a significantly different objective when creating a calibration for a mass produced engine with a warranty that has to be emissions compliant, than say an enthusiast working with one engine. And of course the differences between a daily driver versus a weekend cruiser versus a race car all drive different needs. And ultimately, there is no absolute way things have to be done. A lot of it is personal preference at the end of the day to be honest, from an enthusiast standpoint. 12-15° ATDC is pretty accurate for MBT. However, much more emphasis is placed on what crank degree a percentage of mass fraction burned is occurring at. 50% MFB is one of the most common metrics, but many look at what crank angle 10% 50% and 90% MFB occurs at as well. Something many people dont realize when they pull a ton of timing all the time for traction control, launch control, or just plain old power reduction, is that their EGT's go through the roof and the exhaust valves are hating life! I'd maybe consider making a video, but honestly it would be so generic I dont know that it would be worth it. Unfortunately, due to confidentiality for work, I wouldnt be able to delve in to much of anything specific.
@@ericmiller4285 great info! Thank you for replying. I am curious if you are able to share the name of the company you work for? if not, that is OK, I don't want you to get in trouble! I have subscribed to you just in case one day you do decide to make a video!
Great job, Many of the factory timing tables are very choppy because there are so many modifier tables like Cam Position spark, egr spark, humidity spark, IAT spark, ECT spark, Tip in spark, PE spark, etc that will ultimately arrive at the best number to meet emission standards first and foremost then performance and fuel economy.
Great information. I'm working on doing my build...'19 GMC 2500HD, with the L96. Them square port heads don't do a thing for torque, but I believe they can be improved. I've been watching you, and 2 other tuners, learning as much as I can. This information can also back up to proper cam selection. Along with you BOIT/EOIT info. Now to just make an educated guess, and see what happens.
Been reading lots and lots on the HP tuners forum and your thread(s) on tuning maf and vve simultaneously have been very interesting reads. I bought my Eforce-cam-e85 C6 "built" by a well regarded shop in the chicago area and the more I learn, the more appalled I am at what passes as a "good" tuning shop. I'd be more than happy to donate a tune to your research along with the driving impressions I have of it if you want!
Well look at it this way. Most people go to the grocery story and are happy to buy over the counter tomatoes, they may be cheap ones, or expensive organic tomatoes. But then there are fanatics who think over the counter tomatoes are terrible and have to grow their own in their own garden. Both groups of people are happy with the result. One group gets cheap tomatoes right now, and they think the home growers are crazy due to all the time, labor, and expense of growing tomatoes. The home growers have a different set of goals. It is the same thing with tunes IMHO. How picky are you, and are you willing to do the work and learning and trial and error to make it perfect? Shops and professional tuners just do not have that kind of time. Most tuning sessions of 2-4 hours are really only long enough to cover the basics. But I agree with you, there are a lot of sloppy professional tunes out there. I wonder how many "big time famous shops" out there are really just a guy on Facebook saying "I can help, check your DM" LOL
@@SilverSurfer77 Spot on analogy and I agree about the time constraint limiting how thorough they can be. If I was the professional I would find it difficult to offer both a quick/lazy tune and a "perfect" tune for different prices.
Oooooo can’t wait to hold you accountable when my engine goes boom booms I never watch the first minute or so, so any disclaimers are now null and void. So when will my new crate hellcat motor show up? Lmao thanks for the video man
@@SilverSurfer77 good shit man! lol I want to get into tuning really bad but A I don’t have the device and 2nd I’m to scurd so yeah I still like learning about it tho
@CamelGarage even bull riders are scared of getting on a raging bull. They have respect for the beast. If they don't... then something is wrong with them! Anyway, you should approach this with a heavy dose of respect. There are plenty of easy things to mess around with while learning and there are tons of tuning schools and courses to purchase (well worth it). And finally the HPTuners forum is a great place to ask questions and learn from the real pros! Good luck on your quest!
20:17 I've often thought that Real Time Tuning was the way to go since you could see the MBT torque on a dyno and adjust on the fly instead of having to do a pull then flash. Especially with the E67's rich after flash issues taking so long to base out. I've been shot down a couple times on the HPT forum for asking about RTT and was told it didn't matter and nobody uses it. What do you think?
Oh absolutely! I know RTT was a thing on the Gen3 stuff, I am not sure if it is technically possible on the Gne4 or not. But I would LOVE to have RTT capabilities! The possibilities of doing this for EOIT testing and spark timing would be an absolute game changer!
Yes you are absolutely correct. Starting the combustion process later (retarding the ignition) causes fuel to continue burning as the exhaust valve opens. The exposure to open flame transfers heat to the exhaust valve and exhaust headers much better than hot gasses created in the cylinder during a 'normal' combustion process. Heat is energy and the goal of the heat engine is to harness that heat as kinetic energy. Advancing timing to the correct spot will do this. Retarding ignition causes that heat to get absorbed elsewhere.
@rickriede2166 at 8:33 I'm taking about excess heat/pressure in the cylinder causing knock/detonation. The only option is to back off timing. There is an acceptable range of timing that's not going to really increase EGT.
Fantastic! This is the thought process I had years ago, well before computer cobtrol. Mostly timing, cam selection, and gear ratio considerations. Thank you VERY much for takjng the time to produce this jewel. --Fink
Good stuff! I'm a DIY street tuner myself (Ford Spanish Oaks ECU using VCT....09 Ford Mustang GT w\ 4.6L V8) & I'm not on your level but I looked at this concept by simply using a gasoline constant total burn time rate in crank degrees of 40* max (I understand that this isn't the best.....but if you don't have access to a dyno, then you gotta do what you can do to keep from just throwing a lot of mud against a wall to then try to see what sticks..........) against the actual calc'd piston position in bore from TDC according to rotational crank degrees that matches up w\ the fuel burn time in crank degrees w\ an optimal target of 10* ATDC for max cyl pressure generation & I deemed from all this that any spark timing in excess of 20* BTDC (calc'd piston position at same CA is .140" from TDC putting calc'd piston position at 10* ATDC at .03" from TDC across 30* CA of fuel burn time......used Wallace Racing's Piston Position Calculator) is potentially creating what I believed was excess parasitic pumping loss so I stopped advancing any spark timing in BKT\MBTspark timing maps after 22* BTDC & started advancing
etarding engine cam IVC timing thru VCT mapping as needed to adjust the dynamic compression side instead to increase\decrease the actual total safe cyl pressure as needed.......as long as I didn't negatively disturb the airflow thru the cam's IVO-EVC overlap triangle timing around best TQ @ 17*-20* VCT cam retard timing (I use DESC 2 Emissions & Volumetric Efficiency software to run VE calcs off datalog data to make sure that I don't mess it up)........after setting A\F to proper ratio in OL PE fuel map & monitoring the knock sensors for knock.
So far, from all my datalog data gathering after each reflash & test (I'm using HPTuners as well), this crude scheme is producing some pretty good HP\TQ results (I use the HP equation in line w\ the ECU's EBKTQ calc......the HPTuner HP\Dyno math graph in VCM Scanner..........again, gotta use what you got at your disposal) down in Mexico while at the same time is also producing some stellar emissions results across the board (I monitor the Cat CE Ratio results thru the ECU's IM Readiness Mode 6 Self Check reports using Forscan over time running MagnaFlow #5461336 CARB-cert TWC cats.........most think this is measuring the cat's efficiency alone but IMHO in reality it is actually measuring the engine's operating efficiency thru a set of EPA certified legal cats as the only gasses a cat can process are what is sent into them thru the engine's exhaust post combustion.......the more efficient the engine is at burning the A/F it ingests, the LESS HC, CO & NOx the cats have to process\break up thus the engine in turn is producing\extracting more HP & TQ from the A/F it has burned thus the cat's operational CE Ratio numerical result is lower until the max total produced exhaust poundage referenced by VE% starts driving the CE ratio upwards from sheer exhaust volume starting to overwhelm the cats ability--or capacity--to handle it........avg current Cat CE Ratio is running around .050, max achievable CE Ratio efficiency is .000 along w\ max threshold for emissions passage is .660 running a set of FRPP Hot Rod cams w\ Kooks 1 5/8" LTH's @ 93% VE using all MY period correct emissions settings in tune calibration thus no tuning "tricks" being applied\used).
This also gives me tactical feedback on how well (or not) I'm tuning........
I especially LOVED your gasoline burn rate spreadsheet...........that really opened my eyes & helped verify that I was actually going in the right direction........even if my method(s) are ham fisted & very crude!
Dang man that sounds like quite a process you have! Might be worth it at some point to rent some dyno time and verify and fine tune it.
@@SilverSurfer77 Yes I intend to do that...........if I can find a shop that will rent out dyno time so I can do the tuning myself.........this is practically non-existent in my neck of the woods thus why I'm doing this w\ my crude methods......... I know that the ECU OS calc's TQ based off airmass using the MBT spark advance\spark advance correction tables which isn't the same as dyno calc TQ using the weighted roller w\ eddy brake setting a resistance factor then measuring the load against a strain gauge from the angular velocity of the roller created by the engine TQ in a 1-to-1 trans gear ratio in steady state to then calc HP (follows James Watt's original TQ equation to then calc HP). So I also use DynoSim 6 software (simulates an engine dyno) to back check the modeling to flesh all this out as best I can do to try to check off all the boxes I can w\o being on a chassis dyno.
@@dalelockett2619 Yeah I have the same problem here. Shops don't want to rent out dyno time and they are only interesting in you paying them to tune the car on the dyno. I had one shop tell me since they didn't do the build they don't even want my business. I suppose that is a symptom of having too many customers (good for them I guess). Anywhoo I am about ready to buy a tandem axle trailer, flip it upside down, and use that the basis for a home made dyno.
@@SilverSurfer77 I'd like to have a copy of your Fuel Burn spreadsheet for my own personal use.............how do I go about getting it, if it is available? Let me know...........
Its always surprising to me that the channels with the most quality information dont seem to get as many views as... we'll just say less informative channels. I operate an engine dyno 5 days a week, and more often than not am running with cylinder pressure transducers and combustion analysis hardware and high speed data acquisition. It's nice to see people promote proper ignition timing... its a pretty rare thing unfortunately. Smooth ignition tables are important, and there are a variety of reasons each cell in a timing table isnt just parked at MBT.
VE tables on the other hand... so many people think they need to be these big, arcing, smooth, pretty graphs. Thats generally not how air flows through an engine. Intake runner length, IAT, atmospheric conditions... many things influence airflow. It is not perfectly smooth. Even fuel rail dynamics can affect VE tables. And these things are also found by running with things such as a laminar flow element to measure actual airflow. In my opinion, a perfectly smooth VE table is not a realistic representation of airflow. But thats not what most youtube tuners would have you believe.
Being lucky enough (or unlucky if it doesnt interest a person) to calibrate engines with measured air flow, measured fuel flow, measured cylinder pressure, on an eddy current dyno, and the ability to run at any point for hours on end, makes calibrating an engine almost elementary. This has brought to light two things for me though... There are a whole lot of people out there, good intentions or not, spreading a whole lot of misinformation about how engines work. And secondly, "tuning" an engine with nothing but a laptop making pulls in a car and looking at spark plugs feels totally blind lol. But, you do what you can with the information at hand.
Thanks for the great videos, its nice to see someone presenting good information! Also, I think a PV diagram would have been an excellent accompaniment to your explaining of cylinder pressure vs exhaust valve opening.
Thank you for the kind words and support! Sounds like you have an awesome job, i am totally jealous! I think you should make a video, I would love to hear the tales from the dyno cell! Any chance you can elaborate on the comment you made, " there are a variety of reasons each cell in a timing table isnt just parked at MBT"?
Also, important question, are you seeing 12-15º ATDC peak cylinder pressure to make best torque with you modern transducers?
@@SilverSurfer77 So a few reasons timing might not be set at MBT in every cell in the table would be knock margin, smoothing or blending for drivability purposes, and the effect timing has on NOX emissions. Now of course all of this varies greatly depending on application. An oem manufacturer is going to have a significantly different objective when creating a calibration for a mass produced engine with a warranty that has to be emissions compliant, than say an enthusiast working with one engine. And of course the differences between a daily driver versus a weekend cruiser versus a race car all drive different needs. And ultimately, there is no absolute way things have to be done. A lot of it is personal preference at the end of the day to be honest, from an enthusiast standpoint.
12-15° ATDC is pretty accurate for MBT. However, much more emphasis is placed on what crank degree a percentage of mass fraction burned is occurring at. 50% MFB is one of the most common metrics, but many look at what crank angle 10% 50% and 90% MFB occurs at as well. Something many people dont realize when they pull a ton of timing all the time for traction control, launch control, or just plain old power reduction, is that their EGT's go through the roof and the exhaust valves are hating life!
I'd maybe consider making a video, but honestly it would be so generic I dont know that it would be worth it. Unfortunately, due to confidentiality for work, I wouldnt be able to delve in to much of anything specific.
@@ericmiller4285 great info! Thank you for replying. I am curious if you are able to share the name of the company you work for? if not, that is OK, I don't want you to get in trouble! I have subscribed to you just in case one day you do decide to make a video!
Great job, Many of the factory timing tables are very choppy because there are so many modifier tables like Cam Position spark, egr spark, humidity spark, IAT spark, ECT spark, Tip in spark, PE spark, etc that will ultimately arrive at the best number to meet emission standards first and foremost then performance and fuel economy.
Great information. I'm working on doing my build...'19 GMC 2500HD, with the L96. Them square port heads don't do a thing for torque, but I believe they can be improved. I've been watching you, and 2 other tuners, learning as much as I can. This information can also back up to proper cam selection. Along with you BOIT/EOIT info. Now to just make an educated guess, and see what happens.
The "rectangle port heads kill power down low" myth has been debunked numerous times.
Thanks again!
You are welcome!
Very good Info. Thanks for sharing
Set my EOIT to 400 and 0s in the rpm table, made a big difference with my 230/242 cam. No raw fuel smell even at idle.
Been reading lots and lots on the HP tuners forum and your thread(s) on tuning maf and vve simultaneously have been very interesting reads. I bought my Eforce-cam-e85 C6 "built" by a well regarded shop in the chicago area and the more I learn, the more appalled I am at what passes as a "good" tuning shop. I'd be more than happy to donate a tune to your research along with the driving impressions I have of it if you want!
Well look at it this way. Most people go to the grocery story and are happy to buy over the counter tomatoes, they may be cheap ones, or expensive organic tomatoes. But then there are fanatics who think over the counter tomatoes are terrible and have to grow their own in their own garden. Both groups of people are happy with the result. One group gets cheap tomatoes right now, and they think the home growers are crazy due to all the time, labor, and expense of growing tomatoes. The home growers have a different set of goals.
It is the same thing with tunes IMHO. How picky are you, and are you willing to do the work and learning and trial and error to make it perfect? Shops and professional tuners just do not have that kind of time. Most tuning sessions of 2-4 hours are really only long enough to cover the basics. But I agree with you, there are a lot of sloppy professional tunes out there. I wonder how many "big time famous shops" out there are really just a guy on Facebook saying "I can help, check your DM" LOL
@@SilverSurfer77 Spot on analogy and I agree about the time constraint limiting how thorough they can be. If I was the professional I would find it difficult to offer both a quick/lazy tune and a "perfect" tune for different prices.
Lots of good information thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the Tech The Crazy Old Man In The Yucatan TCOMITY
You are welcome!
You are welcome!
Thanks for keeping the great work 👍
Oooooo can’t wait to hold you accountable when my engine goes boom booms I never watch the first minute or so, so any disclaimers are now null and void. So when will my new crate hellcat motor show up? Lmao thanks for the video man
LOL made my day!
@@SilverSurfer77 good shit man! lol I want to get into tuning really bad but A I don’t have the device and 2nd I’m to scurd so yeah I still like learning about it tho
@CamelGarage even bull riders are scared of getting on a raging bull. They have respect for the beast. If they don't... then something is wrong with them!
Anyway, you should approach this with a heavy dose of respect. There are plenty of easy things to mess around with while learning and there are tons of tuning schools and courses to purchase (well worth it). And finally the HPTuners forum is a great place to ask questions and learn from the real pros!
Good luck on your quest!
20:17 I've often thought that Real Time Tuning was the way to go since you could see the MBT torque on a dyno and adjust on the fly instead of having to do a pull then flash. Especially with the E67's rich after flash issues taking so long to base out. I've been shot down a couple times on the HPT forum for asking about RTT and was told it didn't matter and nobody uses it. What do you think?
Oh absolutely! I know RTT was a thing on the Gen3 stuff, I am not sure if it is technically possible on the Gne4 or not. But I would LOVE to have RTT capabilities! The possibilities of doing this for EOIT testing and spark timing would be an absolute game changer!
@@SilverSurfer77I ran it by the powers that he at HOT and they said absolutely not will they be doing a RTT for the gen 4. Sucks.
@@fasnuf that is too bad.
SilverSurfer77 @8;33. Please help me understand.I always thought the retarding timing would increase exhaust gas temperatures.What am I missing here?
Yes you are absolutely correct. Starting the combustion process later (retarding the ignition) causes fuel to continue burning as the exhaust valve opens. The exposure to open flame transfers heat to the exhaust valve and exhaust headers much better than hot gasses created in the cylinder during a 'normal' combustion process. Heat is energy and the goal of the heat engine is to harness that heat as kinetic energy. Advancing timing to the correct spot will do this. Retarding ignition causes that heat to get absorbed elsewhere.
@rickriede2166 at 8:33 I'm taking about excess heat/pressure in the cylinder causing knock/detonation. The only option is to back off timing. There is an acceptable range of timing that's not going to really increase EGT.