tja und heute? Wo ist Schlesien geblieben? Meine Großeltern haben bis heute keine müde Mark entschädigung gesehen! Haus weg, Grundstück weg, alles weg! Danke Konrad!
Stimmt nicht wirklich. Flüchtlinge wurden in der BRD über das Lastenausgleichgesetz von 1952 entschädigt und sogar ehemalige DDR Bürger bekamen nach der Wiedervereinigung ein paar tausend D-Mark.
Übrigens wurden auch Polen aus Ostpolen vertrieben wie meine Großmutter und haben auch keine Entschädigung erhalten, obwohl sie den Krieg im Gegensatz zu den Deutschen nicht angefangen hatten.
Fake-News! 1. "Ostpolen" ist ein polnisch-nationalistischer Propagandabegriff der suggerieren soll es handle sich um ein regulären Teil Polens (das ist er aber nicht) 2. Im Gebiet bildeten Polen eine winzige Minderheit. Nur um Lemberg und Wilna existierten lokale Mehrheiten, die überwältigende Fläche wurde von Weißrussen und Ukrainer bewohnt 3. daher wurde das Gebiet auch 1918 von den Alliierten eher zu den den Nachbarländern gehörend angesehen (Curzon-Linie) 4. das Gebiet wurde erst 1921 durch einen Eroberungskrieg gegen die Ukraine, Litauen und Sowjetrussland Teil Polens (und war es somit nur für 18 Jahre) 5. Polen unterdrückte und diskriminierte alle Nicht-Polen in diesem Gebiet und versuchte durch Zwangspolonisierung und Ansiedlungsmaßnahmen die ansässige Bevölkerung einzuschränken. 6. Die Hitler-Stalin-Linie von 1939 entspricht der Curzon-Linie von 1918 und der heutigen Ostgrenze Polens. 7. Polen wollte schon vor dem Krieg im Westen (genau wie im Osten) Land aus Größenwahn erobern und nahm dabei keine Rücksicht auf die Bevölkerung. Man wollte am liebsten selbst Dresden und Berlin annektieren völlig unabhängig von irgendeinem Krieg. 8. Die ansässigen Polen im Gebiet durften optieren ... Heißt die sich als Polen identifizierenden Bewohner konnte selber entscheiden ob sie Sowjetbürger werden wollen oder nach Westen ausreisen möchten (deshalb gibt es heute immer noch polnische Minderheiten in diesen Gebiet). Sie dürften zudem ihr Hab und Gut mitnehmen und wurde für den Verlust von substanzielle minderwertigeren osteuropäischen Immobilien mit hochwertigeren mitteleuropäischen Immobilien entschädigt. Also mal besser keine Äpfel mit Birnen vergleichen...
❤️🇩🇪🇦🇹🇨🇭❤️ die schweiz gehörte auch zum Heiligen Römischen Reich Deutscher Nation, -etwa 1640. Wir sind merheitlich auch Deutsche haben es nur vergessen. Aber sprache kultur, ethnie zeigen es bis heute.
Warum soll das besser sein, als wenn es mehrere deutsche Staaten gibt? Wo liegt der Vorteil? Fehlentwicklungen sind so endgültig, umfassend und werden nicht durch alternative Modelle und Konkurrenz korrigiert... Mglw. war sogar die Wiedervereinigung keine gute Idee... ;-)
Oh, how civilized Polish imperialists are. Silesia remains German to the soul. Despite all Polish-Soviet-Czech lies and historical denial of the anti-German genocide of 1945-1949!
Im Wilnagebiet mag das gestimmt haben. Trotzdem wurden die polnischen Bürger Wilnas friedlich ausgesiedelt. Mit Hab und Besitz ab in reichlich versorgte und ausgestatte deutsche Bauernhöfe und Stadtvillen in Breslau, Glatz, Kanth, Landsberg. Das ist keine Vertreibung, sondern erzwungene Auswanderung. Zwei unterschiedliche Sachen!
Yes, Silesia´s duchies were under Polish royal auspices for about 300 years. And for 800 years under German Empires (HRR) or successive German states. And for 1000 yrs from 400 BC until 600 AD under Germanic tribes of Silingii and Lugii.
Genau. Die Provinz Posen und z.B. Kreis Bomst, Bomst, Meseritz usw. waren Städte die sogar 1910 eine 48 % große Minderheit polnischer Einwohner (nur die Katholiken polnischer Sprache) hatten. Dazu noch einige eingedeutschte protestantische Polen. Großpolen hieß dieze Provinz Polen-Litauens nicht umsonst. Aber Glatz, Kolberg, Allenstein, Danzig und Breslau und Landsberg an der Warthe, waren (und bleiben ihrer Seele nach) Deutsche Städte wie Lemberg polnisch und jiddisch ist ihrer Seele nach!
In eastern and northern Upper Silesia, the trade with the Kingdom of Poland, increased Polonization of mostly German regions (Kluczbork, Kreuzburg) and ethnic German farmers between 1450-1600 AD. Reformation and Counterreformation speeded up that process. Of course always a Polish speaking part of Upper Silesian population had existed. Lusatians are not Polish, nor Czech.
@histotuber Many Polish Silesians (like my aunt) moved to Western Germany during the Cold War, not because they considered themselves German but because Poland was occupied by the Soviets.
The ethnogenesis of the West Slavic tribes is very complex. Most West Slavs had a Germanic substrate (very clear in Kashubians and Lusatians), and in 990 AD, the Slavicization of the Germanic Silingii remnant settlements in Nimptsch (Niemcza), Silesia, near the Zobten ("Slezka") had been completed. This was an organic process. Compare to Polonization of Józef Beck ancestors in early 19th century Congress Poland!
@IustitiaPax That is a claim long ago dropped even by German historians. What you refer to, is that the German emperor put his crown on Bolesław's head, after a large impressive feast , while visiting him in 1000. That action had many interpretations: German chronologists either condemned that action or declared it was a sign of sovereignty over Poland. Some Polish claimed Bolesław was appointed the next emperor. But mist likely it was accepting the Polish king as an equal souvereign.
ganz ganau... es geht um Menschenrechte. Nicht dass sich die Geschichte umkehren und der Verlust wiedergutmachen lässt, aber die Erinnerung daran und auch die Auseinandersetzung der Slawen mit ihren Verbrechen gegen die Deutschen und nicht ausschliesslich anders herum währe mal ein netter Anfang.
For a while, Polish dukes (dukes!) had the same status in interpretation like the Bohemian Kings. Inside the Holy Roman Empire. Of course German nationalism or Slavic nationalism did not exist back then. Even Welschtirol or Trentino considered themselves "Roman-German", while speaking Italian dialect with some German words.
You mean that 1.2 million Polish citizens died or disappeared (to England and USA), that 2.5 million ethnic Germans in Silesia, Wielkopolska, Danzig, East Prussia were murdered, and that 1.5 million Polish-born Jews emigrated? The six million statistics is not even repeated by the IPN in Poland anymore. So please revise your beliefs. Facts and statistics speak harsh words. Emigration did too. Emigration is not Nazi death victim!
@IustitiaPax Yes he didn't want a war with England, he irrationally believed that this other Germanic people will join Germany in the conquest of the world. However he new of the public defence pact between Poland, France and Britain, so he must have known that war will or at least can occur with the tow latter states, if he attacked Poland. In any case the illegal attack on Poland - without a declaration of war - was an act of war that Hitler commanded. So he WANTED a war.
Ich zitiere dabei gerne einen britischen Gesandten beim Versaillervertrag der meinte: Wenn man hört was die Polen alles für sich beanspruchen müsste "all between the north POLe and south POLe belong to POLand." :D
1. Yes, not all "Fremdarbeiter" were forced into service. Some volunteered. However the majority was forced to work for the Germans, sometimes even caught in "street battues" and simply deported. Being forced to work and at the same time deprived, starving , often killed haphazardly and even more often working themselves to death (about 12.000 died building the V2-rocket alone!), they were slaves de facto. The other entities you mention are military units and states, not Fremdarbeiter.
Wird dies nicht "Kedzierzyn" mit Häkchen am "e" (kann ich nicht schreiben!) geschrieben? Auf Deutsch heißt dies entweder Heydebreck (ab den späten 30er Jahren) oder (zuvor) auch Kandrzin. Cosel - der Oderhafen, nahe des Klodnitzkanals?
@IustitiaPax Now that is a very interesting claim, especially since I only know it so far from the Nazis. However, I never excluded the possibility, that despite the gigantic pullback of the Germanic peoples to the west, mirrored by the massive move of Slavic peoples in the same direction, there were still relevantly large Germanic populations in the now Slavic areas. However, I never saw any data on that, not to say any proof. Do you have any source on your claims? I'd really like to know it!
@IustitiaPax Yes, that's pretty much the timeline. However Silesia became a part of the HRE due to having been conquered by the Czech king! The Czech kings at that time were officially subjects of the HRE Emperor, however the power of the German rulers was already pretty weak. As a result the factual power over Silesia was exercised by the Czech kings, while the German "royal auspices" were merely de iure. As well: Who lived in Silesia BEFORE 400 BC? All of us Indo-Europeans are immigrants.
@Jerry1SKI The "Podolskie´s" and "Klose´s": Because of the need of workers thousands of Germans in the Oppeln area were not expelled 1945 and de facto hold hostage with forbidden mothertoung by the polish Those Germans in Silesia were first allowed very late to go Germany like your examples did. But because of the strong suppression of any German (Polonization) they were not that able of speaking German like there ancestors does. Posen was mainly Polish, not absolute (possibly 75%).
Das gibts nicht... hier gilt das Recht des Stärkeren. Denn welcher Zeitpunkt für die "Unantastbarkeit" gewählt wird ist willkürlich und kann je nach vorteilhaft oder unvorteilhaft sein. Der jetzige Zeitpunkt ist genau so "fair" wie es einer von 1914 oder von 900 wäre...
1. Lebensraum does not imply "ethnic cleansing". Catharine the Great of Russia created "Lebensraum" for German mennonites and others on Volga. 2. Hitler wanted German-speaking colonies in Eastern Europe, like Volga Germans. Not "extermination" and other Soviet post-war propaganda lies. 3. Hitler wanted no war in 1938. That is why Emil Hácha was allowed to rule CSR, but Józef Tiso and Slovak parliamentarians chose independence of Slovak State in 1939.
Utter Harshness means nothing but consequent military reaction. This has nothing to do with shooting civilians on roads etc. This may have happened, but happened in Holland in May 1940 too. And Allied, Polish-Western, Soviet air planes also shot German civilians in 1939, 1940-1945. I know this from those who were wounded as 5 year olds playing in Bavaria in April 1945 (refugee child from Allenstein/Olsztyn). Germans upheld mostly Geneva Conventions and war law of The Hague.
The Holy Roman Empire of the German nation was the sovereign of the Polish dukes in a backward conglomerate of "Polish" and other West-Slavic tribes. Who named Boleslaw duke or confirmed him as duke in 1000 AD? Who founded Gniezno diocese? First bishops were all Germans. Of course Poland had the highest degree of independence.
I would not trust him too far: He was no Hermann and though he reigned for more than a decade over Germany he failed to crush the foreign occupation forces in a second Battle of the Teutoburg Forest; and he showed very little interest or deeds to restore Germany as an independent great power; while the general German lack of action is somewhat strange:
2. After WW1 the remaining Slavic population in Silesia predominantly spoke Polish. How do explain that? This part of Silesia has never belonged to the Polish state again after it got incorporated into the Czech Kingdom in 1348 and all immigration was German. So how come those Slavic remains (the majority in Silesia spoke German by that time) spoke Polish and not Czech? Because Silesia was Polish around 1000 AD, when the Czech and Polish languages diversified!
@Jerry1SKI You made a mistake at your thought cause you dont know about the geographical extend and ethnic distribution of Silesia before 1945. Lower and Middle Silesia are 100% German like Brandenburg or Saxonia. Only in Uppersilesia we have the "Silesians" and a mixture of German (urban) and Polish (rural).
Fremdarbeiter were not slaves. And Croats, kingdom of Bulgaria, Slovak Republic, Ukrainian SS, Belarussian Rada and Belarussian Waffen-SS, ROA of Vlassov, Slovenian Domobranci, Serbian State Corps, Russian Free Corps, were they not Slavs and military allies? Germanic and Roman peoples were used as forced labourers too. My grandfather hid in a farm to evade Arbeitseinsatz from 1943-45.
Na klar und wir könnten alle Freunde sein. Aber wir sind Menschen... und daher können wir uns genauso wenig eine Frau teilen wie ein Stück Land. Das ist doch alles realitätsfremd und utopisch... und was soll in diesem Zusammenhang überhaupt "Recht" sein und von was soll es sich ableiten?
@IustitiaPax Give me at least one credible source for that claim! All the areas you name were deep within the area settled by Slavs at that time. The Goths have moved out from where Gothiscandza is thought to have been (btw. it is the name of a area, not a city and is only possibly the source of "Gdańsk") centuries earlier and and have already reached Spain and Italy by 936! As well all the other Germanic tribes (Vandals, Burgundians) were long gone. Check any history book on the Barb. Inv.
@IustitiaPax I never heard that term, however I was also astounded to see how strong Polonization has been at different times. Only recently I learned, that Poland absorbed a pretty large Italian (sic!) immigration in the time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. As well I read already several articles in Polish newspapers about many famous Poles and their often non-Polish heritage. I could prolong your list by Chopin's father etc. I use those examples as a remedy to Polish nationalism.
Well you are wrong by doing that. It is not a "remedy", because our nation was built from many. We are the Rzeczpospolita and we are Lithuanians, Tatars, Greater Poles, Mazovians and Cracovians, Vislans and Polans! That is our nation, that is our nationalism.
@IustitiaPax At the early Piast times, Polish rulers were either kings or dukes, that only depended on how strong Poland was and how weak the German empire. So far, thatźs partially true. However Poland has never been a fiefdom of the Empire and no Piast king was imposed by the German Emperor. Only tribute was paid. The claim Poland was non sovereign is not kept up even by German historians any more. Either you read outdated books or some extreme right wing propaganda if you still claim so.
V2 rocket was built by Concentration Camp prisoners, not by drafted forced labourers from Poland, you silly. Distinguish between prisoners and labourers. We had razzias in Holland too.
Yes, I know better. The Poles who remained as "Ukrainians", "Lithuanians", "Belarussians" in Soviet SSRs, were never killed. Poles in Siberia were not all killed, but mostly. And Volksliste ethnic German Poles, who were killed in 1945-46 by UB and others, were not Polish victims of Nazis, but ethnic German victims.
You know Walddeutsche? In Pleß also Polonization happened. Most ardent Polish nationalists are all Polonized Germans. From Korfanty until Józef Beck or Wladyslaw Anders (Baltic German father). In Kluczbork (Kreuzburg) many family names indicate Polonization. Scholtyssek has Schulte (German) and Slavic character. Near Katscher, and south of Ratibor and Bauerwitz, the Silesian population was Moravian (Czech).
@Tholomaios Otto Breitenbach: Das Land Lebus unter den Piasten. Fürstenwalde/Spree 1890. In 1050, when e.g. Lebus was under Polish Boleslaw Chobry control, it had already German population due to the Diocese of Lebus and German settlement programmes. Slavic is NOT equivalent to "Polish". Polish royal control is not Slavic. Kiev was never ethnic Polish either.
Forced labour and insufficient food that killed you are a crime in any case - it doesn't matter what status those affected had. And if you would know about the labourers that build the V2-facilities, you would know many of them WERE from Poland. But that's not even the point: people forced by the Germans into slave work died and that's a crime. And: I'm ain't talking about razzias, I talk about blocking each side of the street and pressing everyone caught in it into slave work. You had that?
@IustitiaPax You refer to the period of the so called feudal fragmentization. However you got the year number completely wrong... and as a result also the general interpretation. The fragmentization started in 1138 and lasted long, however ended already in 1320 with the coronation of Władysław I the Elbow-high. As well it was getting worse slowly and therefore not that bad from the beginning. More importantly Poland was unified all the time BEFORE 1138 from its foundation in 966!
Das ist richtig. Trotzdem ergab die Abstimmung ob diese Slawen zu Polen gehören wollen negativ aus wie auch in den Abstimmungsgebieten Marienwerder und Allenstein. Es währe Intressant und sicher auch kriegsverhindernd gewesen in allen Kreisen West-Preussens und Posens eine Abstimmung durchzuführen.
Poland never existed before 1386 as a unified kingdom. Czech lands were Slavic too, but never truly Polish, but under Polish rule temporarily. Many West Slavic tribes like the Obodrites spoke a West Slavic language, but had Germanic assimilated substrates in their peoples. Like Belarussians have Polish substrates often. Poland today is a national republic.
@Tholomaios The Land of Lebus and its Bishopric were under influence of Polish dukes. Why were Polish dukes, dukes and not kings? Because Otto III in 1000 established Boleslaw as duke of Poland under suzerainty of the Holy Roman Empire. Poland had many German bishops. Pomerania was never Polish, but Slavic, and under Polish rule temporarily 1083-1128, then under Holy Roman German Empire.
Bedenke: Nicht mal die Weimarer Republik hatte so viele Gliedstaaten! Nur 17, nachdem Waldeck mit Preußen vereint war! Wohin willst Du den "aufrollen" - auch bis zum Ural wie der Überalterte?! In meinen Augen müsste Joseph Wirth der beste aller Kanzler gewesen sein, vom Alter bei Amtsantritt her gesehen!
Nonsense. In 936 AD many German villages and boroughs existed east of the Elbe. And in Pomerania, Rügen, Kolberg, maybe even Gothiscandza (Gdansk) and Nimptsch (NIemcza)/Silesia had Danish and Silingii settlements of Germanic tribes. It was an empty area of rural West Slavic fishermen and primitive farmers after the 7th century.
Ach Gott, so schnell keine Argumente mehr? Was soll's, dieses ganze rückwärtsgewandte "Wir wollen unseren Kaiser Willhelm wider haben" kann sowieso kein heutiger Europäer ernst nehmen.
@SilesiaWarrior Also ich war letztens in Wrocław und die Stadt ist wunderschön renoviert. Auch die Deutschen die da mit waren, waren begeistert. Einer der dort mal gewohnt hat, war enttäuscht darüber, dass auf seinem Bauernhof das alte Eisentor, so wie es der russische Panzer überfahren hat immer noch auf dem Boden liegt. In sofern verstehe ich Dich.
Das ist inherent ein Irrtum weil hier Endonym und Exonym eine politische Bedeutung beigemessen wird... Die Stadt heißt auf deutsch natürlich Breslau. Genau wie Warschau auf deutsch nicht Warzawa und Mailand nicht Milano heißt... Das impliziert perse nichts... Weder erhebt ein Italiener der München Monaco nennt darauf Anspruch noch ein Pole der Leipzig Lipsk nennt....
@@Map2Brain Guter Punkt! Da habe ich auch schon drüber nachgedacht. Ja, Städtenamen als Lehnwörter sind meistens abgewandelt, schlicht weil dies besser zur Aussprache und Orthographie der annehmenden Sprache passt. In anderen Fällen hat sich der Name schlicht über die Jahrhunderte verändert, ist aber in Fremdsprachen in der alten Form geblieben (z.B. ist "Braunschweig" auf polnisch immer noch "Brunszwik", also eine leichte Abwandlung des niederdeutschen "Brunswiek". Daher hast Du grundsätzlich recht, dass die sprachabhängigen Namensvarianten in der Regel nichts mit Territorialansprüchen zu tun haben... Aber leider ist es mit den Namen von Orten die vor den 2. Weltkrieg (oder noch früher: ein Freund nannte Poznań/Posen eine "urdeutsche Stadt" ;-D) zu Deutschland gehört haben anders - frag mal Kai-Jan Kutscher oben, ob er trotz seines Kommentars "Die Stadt heißt Breslau!" sagen die Unverletzlichkeit der deutsch-polnischen Grenze entlang der Oder-Neiße-Linie bejahen würde.
@@Tholomaios woher willst du wissen was Kutscher damit zum Ausdruck bringen wollte? Du interpretierst da eine politische Agenda rein, die man umgekehrt in das Beharren auf polnische Schreibweisen und in automatische Unterstellung einer politischen Intention, genauso hinein interpretieren könnte... Bspw. hat die DDR auf kleinmaßstäbigen Karten bei denen nur 4 Städtenamen in Polen Platz finden geschrieben: Wroclaw, Warschau, Gdansk, Krakau... Ich gehe davon aus, dass das Springen zwischen Exonym und Endonym offensichtlich ist und die Auswahl welche Orte wie geschrieben werden die politische Agenda klar genug offenbart. Letzten Endes lässt sich nur an dieser ungleich Nutzung eine klare Agenda erkennen... An der reinen Nutzung des Endonym oder Exonym lässt sich im speziellen Fall der Ostgebiete noch nicht zwingend ein Hintergedanken ablesen... Nur das Eskalieren darüber deutet an, dass Demjenigen um mehr geht als nur die grundsätzliche Nutzung von Endonym und Exonym... Oder wer bspw. Mailand sagt aber auf Poznan besteht muss sich fragen lassen woher die Indifferenz stammt...
@IustitiaPax Polonization due to trade? Never heard of that, but maybe you are right. However I really wonder how that should have worked. Trade brings only news, wealth and technology but only settlement changes the ethnic composition. But gladly we agree now, that Silesias Slavic population was initially Polish, from the moment Czech and Polish diversified. Btw. I know Lusitians are a people of their own.
Silesia remains German. And this speech by the Federal Chancellor Adenauer illustrates the rightful aspirations of the survivors of the criminal anti-German genocide and expulsion from 1945-1950. Just because Germans lost the war and just because the SS was German, does not justify crimes against humanity, German Silesian were humans. Please uphold the memory of German Silesia. Maybe once the reconciliation will come and Poland will recognize the former crimes!
´Anti-Slavism´ was the applied policy towards Poles and lateron Russians and other Slavs in the SU from the very beginning. Already the war itself was rasistic. Unlike the German armies behavior in the west, here in the east the army has been ordered to be brutal ("äußerste Härte") and to disregard any legal standards. German fighter pilots were shooting parachuting Polish collegues and shot into cicilians fleeing on roads, to name two examples. Russians received an even worse treatment.
There are legally defined limits for what "utter harshness" is allowed in war. We call that laws of war, e.g. Genevian Convention. The principle is, that armies should fight armies and not harm civilians as far as possible. Shooting fleeing civilians on roads with no military anywhere near is not allowed and therefore a crime. Your attempt to justify that is pervert! As well you seem to go completely mad: No "Soviet air planes [...] shot German civilians in 1939"! They were allies until 1941!
so are you german or polish??because in another movie you said you are polish:P and we dont call silesians germans.But anyway i know that wermacht use silesians as soldiers but it wasnt their fault.people shoud live in peace i dont care whats your nationality until you act against country.Peace
Wie konnte er das den Schlesiern nur versprechen, bei der Politik, die er vorangetrieben hat. Aber Hauptsache, die Menschen bleiben ruhig und lassen sich einlullen. Das war damals nicht anders als heute.
@IustitiaPax Otton III didn't have choice to consider Bolesław Chrobry as a king it was his duty as Cezar of Holy Roman Empire. Mieszko (duke) baptised him self and Poland in 966 marrying czech princes. So Poland was chrystianized by czechs to be independent from Germans, first Polish Bischop was czech. Each ruler of christian country in Europe at this time was consider as a king. Meybe some bishops were Germans thats ok we were tolerant.
Ohne vorgelagerter oder zeitgleiche Wiedervereinigung war das territorial unmöglich, bzw. Polen hätte die 10 Millionen Deutschen wieder zurück kommen lassen können... aber die hätten dann 20% der Bevölkerung ausgemacht. Quasi unbegrenzte Massenremigration von potenziell feindseligen Personen hätte Polen niemals zugelassen. Und die Deutschen im Westen zu denen Adenauer sprach? Wären die freiwillig in das arme kommunistische Polen gegangen? Die Bewegung war ja genau umgekehrt. Die verbliebenen und/oder noch als Geiseln gehaltenen Deutschen sind sobald es ging in den Westen ausgewandert und haben ihre Heimat hinter sich gelassen...
3 роки тому+1
@@Map2Brain Machte ja auch Sinn bei der Stimmung. Statt Versöhnung spielt man die Armen gegeneinander aus.
You are not a true Silesian anymore than Jozéf Beck was a German (he had a German name though, like Vacláv Klaus, proving the German heritage of culture of the West Slavic areas). There is more in Silesia than mostly Polish Katowice. 95 % of Silesia was German-speaking. The innocent eastern Germans were forcefully expelled and deported, and hundreds of thousands murdered by the "great" Polish and Soviet (Russian) "liberators".
@IustitiaPax 1. Since you yourself mentioned the Polish dukes, you know that there indeed was a unified kingdom before, actually far before 1386. You know what? I have a German history book from 1942 (!) and even there "Mieszkos Reich" and later on Poland is shown on the maps. Mieszko's state was baptised already in 966 and it existed already earlier. Already in 966 it comprised Silesia as well a Pomerania.
Das ist ein Satz ohne jede Substanz. Und das kannst Du auch selbst überprüfen: Tausche in dem Satz polnisch, sowjetisch und alliiert mit deutsch und er wird genau den gleichen Erkenntniswert besitzen: keinen. Es sind leer Behauptungen und Unterstellungen.
@IustitiaPax Now that's a great reference I can check! I could give "Many publications by scientists" as a reference for EVERYTHING I say. If you have a source you got that from, name it!
@IustitiaPax I'm not blemeing Nazi only but fact is U killed more people than Soviets. Hitler Plan was to exterminate moste of Poles leave some to work for Germany as slaves, Stalin plan was to killed those only who will be a problem , those who could unite Poles in freedom fight against soviets. Prof Norman Davies in his books sayes 2WW was a first conflict were civilians suffered the most. If Nazis would not lounch exterminations machins on east, now those killed list would be shorter.
Stutthof camp? This was a labour camp, nothing more. It has a special place in Polish Communist and now national-chauvinist propaganda, but was nothing special. In Potulice 1946 until 1947 more ethnic Germans were killed or died due to untreated typhus than in six years in KZ Stutthof near Danzig.
@IustitiaPax In 1939 Poland got two choices too fight with Germans against russians and after being expelled or fight against Geramans offcourse ally with Soviets was imposilble.
Based on self-determination of peoples, expulsion and genocide of 1945-1949 were crimes and Silesia etc. should be subjected to a referendum with old inhabitants.
@mehdan2 What a stupid demand... As well I could say: "Return Frankfurt, the Lebussian Area and Lusatia to Poland" The borders are just as they are now. Germany's eastern border was at the Elbe river, when it was founded in 936 AD. All territories east of that were only conquered later on.
@vacatbel Bullshit, my friend :D our argumantation style is very well ;) 1. Austria don´t suppres Minorities that much like Pols or Hungarians did. The Royalparliament had Members from all Nations of Austria. 2. max. 20 Million. if you believe there is a collective guild for the germans there is a collective guild for all... also for the Poles... what they did to the germans, jews or after 1945 to the ukrainians... your logic is the logic of fools... like nazis.
The war was not racist. Stop telling lies. Slovakians, Croats, Bulgarians, Ukrainians were all allies of the German Empire in WW2 and well-respected. Racial theories were just that, theories. You believe lies. The reason for harsh war, were NKVD stay behind, Soviet partisans, Armia Krajowa 400,000 fighters in underground, reprisals for resistance. Protektorat e.g. had all Czech culture groups etc. and Ukrainian schools were opened in Sanok by Germans.
@SuperPoliboy Also als angeblicher ehemaliger Richter der 63 Jahre alt sein soll, ist erstens dein Nick etwas ...zu jugendlich, zweitens deine Auffassung von Recht und Geschichte extrem fragwürdig. Was immer deine Anekdote mit der Garage sagen sollte...
tja und heute? Wo ist Schlesien geblieben? Meine Großeltern haben bis heute keine müde Mark entschädigung gesehen! Haus weg, Grundstück weg, alles weg! Danke Konrad!
Wer soll denn Entschädigung zahlen? Man musste sich den Kriegssieger beugen.
Stimmt nicht wirklich. Flüchtlinge wurden in der BRD über das Lastenausgleichgesetz von 1952 entschädigt und sogar ehemalige DDR Bürger bekamen nach der Wiedervereinigung ein paar tausend D-Mark.
Jaaaaa ist aber natürlich lächerlich... ein paar hundert Mark für Immobilien, Land und Heimat...
Übrigens wurden auch Polen aus Ostpolen vertrieben wie meine Großmutter und haben auch keine Entschädigung erhalten, obwohl sie den Krieg im Gegensatz zu den Deutschen nicht angefangen hatten.
Fake-News!
1. "Ostpolen" ist ein polnisch-nationalistischer Propagandabegriff der suggerieren soll es handle sich um ein regulären Teil Polens (das ist er aber nicht)
2. Im Gebiet bildeten Polen eine winzige Minderheit. Nur um Lemberg und Wilna existierten lokale Mehrheiten, die überwältigende Fläche wurde von Weißrussen und Ukrainer bewohnt
3. daher wurde das Gebiet auch 1918 von den Alliierten eher zu den den Nachbarländern gehörend angesehen (Curzon-Linie)
4. das Gebiet wurde erst 1921 durch einen Eroberungskrieg gegen die Ukraine, Litauen und Sowjetrussland Teil Polens (und war es somit nur für 18 Jahre)
5. Polen unterdrückte und diskriminierte alle Nicht-Polen in diesem Gebiet und versuchte durch Zwangspolonisierung und Ansiedlungsmaßnahmen die ansässige Bevölkerung einzuschränken.
6. Die Hitler-Stalin-Linie von 1939 entspricht der Curzon-Linie von 1918 und der heutigen Ostgrenze Polens.
7. Polen wollte schon vor dem Krieg im Westen (genau wie im Osten) Land aus Größenwahn erobern und nahm dabei keine Rücksicht auf die Bevölkerung. Man wollte am liebsten selbst Dresden und Berlin annektieren völlig unabhängig von irgendeinem Krieg.
8. Die ansässigen Polen im Gebiet durften optieren ... Heißt die sich als Polen identifizierenden Bewohner konnte selber entscheiden ob sie Sowjetbürger werden wollen oder nach Westen ausreisen möchten (deshalb gibt es heute immer noch polnische Minderheiten in diesen Gebiet). Sie dürften zudem ihr Hab und Gut mitnehmen und wurde für den Verlust von substanzielle minderwertigeren osteuropäischen Immobilien mit hochwertigeren mitteleuropäischen Immobilien entschädigt.
Also mal besser keine Äpfel mit Birnen vergleichen...
Ich bin in schlesien geboren und ich vermisse mein heimatland. opa sagte imer das DEUTSCHLAND dein faterland ist und so bleibt
DANZIG , KÖNIGSBERG , STETTIN , sind deutsche Städte so wie WIEN 🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🇦🇹🎗🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪🇩🇪
nie ośmieszaj się
Genauso, soll es sein.
❤️🇩🇪🇦🇹🇨🇭❤️ die schweiz gehörte auch zum Heiligen Römischen Reich Deutscher Nation, -etwa 1640. Wir sind merheitlich auch Deutsche haben es nur vergessen. Aber sprache kultur, ethnie zeigen es bis heute.
@@eli8029 Und es wäre sehr schön,wenn alle Deutschen in einem Staat als Landsleute zusammen wohnen könnten.
Warum soll das besser sein, als wenn es mehrere deutsche Staaten gibt? Wo liegt der Vorteil? Fehlentwicklungen sind so endgültig, umfassend und werden nicht durch alternative Modelle und Konkurrenz korrigiert... Mglw. war sogar die Wiedervereinigung keine gute Idee... ;-)
Oh, how civilized Polish imperialists are.
Silesia remains German to the soul. Despite all Polish-Soviet-Czech lies and historical denial of the anti-German genocide of 1945-1949!
Hier bin ich, ein chilenischer Nachkomme einer schlesischen Familie Rother.
Der Tag wird kommen, wenn alle uns nach Hause zurückkehren!!!
Herr Rother. schreiben Sie uns doch an und berichten doch von Ihrer Familiengeschichte.
kulturreferent@oberschlesien.de
Der Zug ist schon längst abgefahren...
Im Wilnagebiet mag das gestimmt haben. Trotzdem wurden die polnischen Bürger Wilnas friedlich ausgesiedelt. Mit Hab und Besitz ab in reichlich versorgte und ausgestatte deutsche Bauernhöfe und Stadtvillen in Breslau, Glatz, Kanth, Landsberg. Das ist keine Vertreibung, sondern erzwungene Auswanderung. Zwei unterschiedliche Sachen!
Yes, Silesia´s duchies were under Polish royal auspices for about 300 years. And for 800 years under German Empires (HRR) or successive German states. And for 1000 yrs from 400 BC until 600 AD under Germanic tribes of Silingii and Lugii.
Man hat das schöne Schlesien verraten und in Stich gelassen.❗🤔 😵 😢
Genau. Die Provinz Posen und z.B. Kreis Bomst, Bomst, Meseritz usw. waren Städte die sogar 1910 eine 48 % große Minderheit polnischer Einwohner (nur die Katholiken polnischer Sprache) hatten. Dazu noch einige eingedeutschte protestantische Polen. Großpolen hieß dieze Provinz Polen-Litauens nicht umsonst. Aber Glatz, Kolberg, Allenstein, Danzig und Breslau und Landsberg an der Warthe, waren (und bleiben ihrer Seele nach) Deutsche Städte wie Lemberg polnisch und jiddisch ist ihrer Seele nach!
Konrad Adenauer stand wenigstens noch zu den Vertriebenen und unterstützt nicht (wie Westerwelle) nicht deren Geschichte zu Vergessen
In eastern and northern Upper Silesia, the trade with the Kingdom of Poland, increased Polonization of mostly German regions (Kluczbork, Kreuzburg) and ethnic German farmers between 1450-1600 AD. Reformation and Counterreformation speeded up that process. Of course always a Polish speaking part of Upper Silesian population had existed. Lusatians are not Polish, nor Czech.
My family has its origin in the area of Keuzburg!
@histotuber Many Polish Silesians (like my aunt) moved to Western Germany during the Cold War, not because they considered themselves German but because Poland was occupied by the Soviets.
The ethnogenesis of the West Slavic tribes is very complex. Most West Slavs had a Germanic substrate (very clear in Kashubians and Lusatians), and in 990 AD, the Slavicization of the Germanic Silingii remnant settlements in Nimptsch (Niemcza), Silesia, near the Zobten ("Slezka") had been completed. This was an organic process. Compare to Polonization of Józef Beck ancestors in early 19th century Congress Poland!
@IustitiaPax
That is a claim long ago dropped even by German historians. What you refer to, is that the German emperor put his crown on Bolesław's head, after a large impressive feast , while visiting him in 1000. That action had many interpretations: German chronologists either condemned that action or declared it was a sign of sovereignty over Poland. Some Polish claimed Bolesław was appointed the next emperor. But mist likely it was accepting the Polish king as an equal souvereign.
Gruß aus Rossenberg Oben Schlesien .
ganz ganau... es geht um Menschenrechte. Nicht dass sich die Geschichte umkehren und der Verlust wiedergutmachen lässt, aber die Erinnerung daran und auch die Auseinandersetzung der Slawen mit ihren Verbrechen gegen die Deutschen und nicht ausschliesslich anders herum währe mal ein netter Anfang.
For a while, Polish dukes (dukes!) had the same status in interpretation like the Bohemian Kings. Inside the Holy Roman Empire. Of course German nationalism or Slavic nationalism did not exist back then. Even Welschtirol or Trentino considered themselves "Roman-German", while speaking Italian dialect with some German words.
@receipt22 gefällt mir sehr gut - auch Sudetenland bleibt in der Erinnerung deutsch !!!!
Ok - Danke für Deine Antwort !!
Nicht aufgeben.
You mean that 1.2 million Polish citizens died or disappeared (to England and USA), that 2.5 million ethnic Germans in Silesia, Wielkopolska, Danzig, East Prussia were murdered, and that 1.5 million Polish-born Jews emigrated? The six million statistics is not even repeated by the IPN in Poland anymore. So please revise your beliefs. Facts and statistics speak harsh words. Emigration did too. Emigration is not Nazi death victim!
sagte der Spinner im Kommentar zu einem Video, dass in der Vergangenheit spielt und sich auf die Vergangenheit bezieht.
Mein Schleierland mein Heimatland
@IustitiaPax
Yes he didn't want a war with England, he irrationally believed that this other Germanic people will join Germany in the conquest of the world.
However he new of the public defence pact between Poland, France and Britain, so he must have known that war will or at least can occur with the tow latter states, if he attacked Poland. In any case the illegal attack on Poland - without a declaration of war - was an act of war that Hitler commanded. So he WANTED a war.
Ich zitiere dabei gerne einen britischen Gesandten beim Versaillervertrag der meinte: Wenn man hört was die Polen alles für sich beanspruchen müsste "all between the north POLe and south POLe belong to POLand." :D
Oh dear...What times they were!...
1. Yes, not all "Fremdarbeiter" were forced into service. Some volunteered.
However the majority was forced to work for the Germans, sometimes even caught in "street battues" and simply deported. Being forced to work and at the same time deprived, starving , often killed haphazardly and even more often working themselves to death (about 12.000 died building the V2-rocket alone!), they were slaves de facto.
The other entities you mention are military units and states, not Fremdarbeiter.
Nur gelaber aber die Vertriebenen waren früher Eine wichtige Wahlergruppe
Wird dies nicht "Kedzierzyn" mit Häkchen am "e" (kann ich nicht schreiben!) geschrieben? Auf Deutsch heißt dies entweder Heydebreck (ab den späten 30er Jahren) oder (zuvor) auch Kandrzin. Cosel - der Oderhafen, nahe des Klodnitzkanals?
Ab 1200 nCh siedeln die Deutschen dort, nennen es Pommern und Dantzik. 1947 nCh die Polen, Pomorze, Gdansk.
@IustitiaPax
Now that is a very interesting claim, especially since I only know it so far from the Nazis. However, I never excluded the possibility, that despite the gigantic pullback of the Germanic peoples to the west, mirrored by the massive move of Slavic peoples in the same direction, there were still relevantly large Germanic populations in the now Slavic areas. However, I never saw any data on that, not to say any proof.
Do you have any source on your claims? I'd really like to know it!
@IustitiaPax
Yes, that's pretty much the timeline. However Silesia became a part of the HRE due to having been conquered by the Czech king! The Czech kings at that time were officially subjects of the HRE Emperor, however the power of the German rulers was already pretty weak. As a result the factual power over Silesia was exercised by the Czech kings, while the German "royal auspices" were merely de iure.
As well: Who lived in Silesia BEFORE 400 BC? All of us Indo-Europeans are immigrants.
@Jerry1SKI
The "Podolskie´s" and "Klose´s": Because of the need of workers thousands of Germans in the Oppeln area were not expelled 1945 and de facto hold hostage with forbidden mothertoung by the polish Those Germans in Silesia were first allowed very late to go Germany like your examples did. But because of the strong suppression of any German (Polonization) they were not that able of speaking German like there ancestors does. Posen was mainly Polish, not absolute (possibly 75%).
Das gibts nicht... hier gilt das Recht des Stärkeren. Denn welcher Zeitpunkt für die "Unantastbarkeit" gewählt wird ist willkürlich und kann je nach vorteilhaft oder unvorteilhaft sein. Der jetzige Zeitpunkt ist genau so "fair" wie es einer von 1914 oder von 900 wäre...
1. Lebensraum does not imply "ethnic cleansing". Catharine the Great of Russia created "Lebensraum" for German mennonites and others on Volga.
2. Hitler wanted German-speaking colonies in Eastern Europe, like Volga Germans. Not "extermination" and other Soviet post-war propaganda lies.
3. Hitler wanted no war in 1938. That is why Emil Hácha was allowed to rule CSR, but Józef Tiso and Slovak parliamentarians chose independence of Slovak State in 1939.
@vyyn gefällt mir sehr gut - kann ich nur zustimmen
Utter Harshness means nothing but consequent military reaction. This has nothing to do with shooting civilians on roads etc. This may have happened, but happened in Holland in May 1940 too. And Allied, Polish-Western, Soviet air planes also shot German civilians in 1939, 1940-1945. I know this from those who were wounded as 5 year olds playing in Bavaria in April 1945 (refugee child from Allenstein/Olsztyn). Germans upheld mostly Geneva Conventions and war law of The Hague.
The Holy Roman Empire of the German nation was the sovereign of the Polish dukes in a backward conglomerate of "Polish" and other West-Slavic tribes. Who named Boleslaw duke or confirmed him as duke in 1000 AD? Who founded Gniezno diocese? First bishops were all Germans. Of course Poland had the highest degree of independence.
I would not trust him too far: He was no Hermann and though he reigned for more than a decade over Germany he failed to crush the foreign occupation forces in a second Battle of the Teutoburg Forest; and he showed very little interest or deeds to restore Germany as an independent great power; while the general German lack of action is somewhat strange:
2. After WW1 the remaining Slavic population in Silesia predominantly spoke Polish.
How do explain that?
This part of Silesia has never belonged to the Polish state again after it got incorporated into the Czech Kingdom in 1348 and all immigration was German. So how come those Slavic remains (the majority in Silesia spoke German by that time) spoke Polish and not Czech?
Because Silesia was Polish around 1000 AD, when the Czech and Polish languages diversified!
@Jerry1SKI
You made a mistake at your thought cause you dont know about the geographical extend and ethnic distribution of Silesia before 1945. Lower and Middle Silesia are 100% German like Brandenburg or Saxonia. Only in Uppersilesia we have the "Silesians" and a mixture of German (urban) and Polish (rural).
Fremdarbeiter were not slaves. And Croats, kingdom of Bulgaria, Slovak Republic, Ukrainian SS, Belarussian Rada and Belarussian Waffen-SS, ROA of Vlassov, Slovenian Domobranci, Serbian State Corps, Russian Free Corps, were they not Slavs and military allies? Germanic and Roman peoples were used as forced labourers too. My grandfather hid in a farm to evade Arbeitseinsatz from 1943-45.
Na klar und wir könnten alle Freunde sein. Aber wir sind Menschen... und daher können wir uns genauso wenig eine Frau teilen wie ein Stück Land. Das ist doch alles realitätsfremd und utopisch... und was soll in diesem Zusammenhang überhaupt "Recht" sein und von was soll es sich ableiten?
@IustitiaPax
Give me at least one credible source for that claim!
All the areas you name were deep within the area settled by Slavs at that time. The Goths have moved out from where Gothiscandza is thought to have been (btw. it is the name of a area, not a city and is only possibly the source of "Gdańsk") centuries earlier and and have already reached Spain and Italy by 936! As well all the other Germanic tribes (Vandals, Burgundians) were long gone. Check any history book on the Barb. Inv.
@IustitiaPax
I never heard that term, however I was also astounded to see how strong Polonization has been at different times. Only recently I learned, that Poland absorbed a pretty large Italian (sic!) immigration in the time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. As well I read already several articles in Polish newspapers about many famous Poles and their often non-Polish heritage. I could prolong your list by Chopin's father etc.
I use those examples as a remedy to Polish nationalism.
Well you are wrong by doing that.
It is not a "remedy", because our nation was built from many. We are the Rzeczpospolita and we are Lithuanians, Tatars, Greater Poles, Mazovians and Cracovians, Vislans and Polans!
That is our nation, that is our nationalism.
@IustitiaPax
At the early Piast times, Polish rulers were either kings or dukes, that only depended on how strong Poland was and how weak the German empire. So far, thatźs partially true. However Poland has never been a fiefdom of the Empire and no Piast king was imposed by the German Emperor. Only tribute was paid.
The claim Poland was non sovereign is not kept up even by German historians any more. Either you read outdated books or some extreme right wing propaganda if you still claim so.
leider ist das Commentlimit exited... schreib mir noch nachrichten um weiter zu diskutieren. ich finde es sehr spannend.
Man sah damals schon, was Adenauer vorhatte. Und das war nichts Gutes.
V2 rocket was built by Concentration Camp prisoners, not by drafted forced labourers from Poland, you silly. Distinguish between prisoners and labourers. We had razzias in Holland too.
Deportationen von 1939 nach Kasachstan waren politisch. Es wurden keine Millionen Polen ausgesiedelt wie 1945-46 in der UdSSR.
Yes, I know better. The Poles who remained as "Ukrainians", "Lithuanians", "Belarussians" in Soviet SSRs, were never killed. Poles in Siberia were not all killed, but mostly. And Volksliste ethnic German Poles, who were killed in 1945-46 by UB and others, were not Polish victims of Nazis, but ethnic German victims.
You know Walddeutsche? In Pleß also Polonization happened. Most ardent Polish nationalists are all Polonized Germans. From Korfanty until Józef Beck or Wladyslaw Anders (Baltic German father). In Kluczbork (Kreuzburg) many family names indicate Polonization. Scholtyssek has Schulte (German) and Slavic character. Near Katscher, and south of Ratibor and Bauerwitz, the Silesian population was Moravian (Czech).
@Tholomaios Otto Breitenbach: Das Land Lebus unter den Piasten. Fürstenwalde/Spree 1890. In 1050, when e.g. Lebus was under Polish Boleslaw Chobry control, it had already German population due to the Diocese of Lebus and German settlement programmes. Slavic is NOT equivalent to "Polish". Polish royal control is not Slavic. Kiev was never ethnic Polish either.
Forced labour and insufficient food that killed you are a crime in any case - it doesn't matter what status those affected had. And if you would know about the labourers that build the V2-facilities, you would know many of them WERE from Poland. But that's not even the point: people forced by the Germans into slave work died and that's a crime.
And: I'm ain't talking about razzias, I talk about blocking each side of the street and pressing everyone caught in it into slave work. You had that?
@IustitiaPax
You refer to the period of the so called feudal fragmentization. However you got the year number completely wrong... and as a result also the general interpretation.
The fragmentization started in 1138 and lasted long, however ended already in 1320 with the coronation of Władysław I the Elbow-high. As well it was getting worse slowly and therefore not that bad from the beginning.
More importantly Poland was unified all the time BEFORE 1138 from its foundation in 966!
Das ist richtig. Trotzdem ergab die Abstimmung ob diese Slawen zu Polen gehören wollen negativ aus wie auch in den Abstimmungsgebieten Marienwerder und Allenstein. Es währe Intressant und sicher auch kriegsverhindernd gewesen in allen Kreisen West-Preussens und Posens eine Abstimmung durchzuführen.
Poland never existed before 1386 as a unified kingdom. Czech lands were Slavic too, but never truly Polish, but under Polish rule temporarily. Many West Slavic tribes like the Obodrites spoke a West Slavic language, but had Germanic assimilated substrates in their peoples. Like Belarussians have Polish substrates often. Poland today is a national republic.
@Tholomaios The Land of Lebus and its Bishopric were under influence of Polish dukes. Why were Polish dukes, dukes and not kings? Because Otto III in 1000 established Boleslaw as duke of Poland under suzerainty of the Holy Roman Empire. Poland had many German bishops. Pomerania was never Polish, but Slavic, and under Polish rule temporarily 1083-1128, then under Holy Roman German Empire.
Bedenke: Nicht mal die Weimarer Republik hatte so viele Gliedstaaten! Nur 17, nachdem Waldeck mit Preußen vereint war! Wohin willst Du den "aufrollen" - auch bis zum Ural wie der Überalterte?!
In meinen Augen müsste Joseph Wirth der beste aller Kanzler gewesen sein, vom Alter bei Amtsantritt her gesehen!
Nonsense. In 936 AD many German villages and boroughs existed east of the Elbe. And in Pomerania, Rügen, Kolberg, maybe even Gothiscandza (Gdansk) and Nimptsch (NIemcza)/Silesia had Danish and Silingii settlements of Germanic tribes. It was an empty area of rural West Slavic fishermen and primitive farmers after the 7th century.
Ach Gott, so schnell keine Argumente mehr? Was soll's, dieses ganze rückwärtsgewandte "Wir wollen unseren Kaiser Willhelm wider haben" kann sowieso kein heutiger Europäer ernst nehmen.
Tja, leider nie passiert... und jetzt ist es zu spät
@SilesiaWarrior
Also ich war letztens in Wrocław und die Stadt ist wunderschön renoviert. Auch die Deutschen die da mit waren, waren begeistert.
Einer der dort mal gewohnt hat, war enttäuscht darüber, dass auf seinem Bauernhof das alte Eisentor, so wie es der russische Panzer überfahren hat immer noch auf dem Boden liegt. In sofern verstehe ich Dich.
Die Stadt heißt Breslau!
@@kai-jankutscher716 Nein, sie heißt "Wrocław" und das schon seit 1945 - höchste Zeit, dass Du Deine Karte aktualisierst. ;-D
Das ist inherent ein Irrtum weil hier Endonym und Exonym eine politische Bedeutung beigemessen wird... Die Stadt heißt auf deutsch natürlich Breslau. Genau wie Warschau auf deutsch nicht Warzawa und Mailand nicht Milano heißt... Das impliziert perse nichts... Weder erhebt ein Italiener der München Monaco nennt darauf Anspruch noch ein Pole der Leipzig Lipsk nennt....
@@Map2Brain Guter Punkt! Da habe ich auch schon drüber nachgedacht. Ja, Städtenamen als Lehnwörter sind meistens abgewandelt, schlicht weil dies besser zur Aussprache und Orthographie der annehmenden Sprache passt. In anderen Fällen hat sich der Name schlicht über die Jahrhunderte verändert, ist aber in Fremdsprachen in der alten Form geblieben (z.B. ist "Braunschweig" auf polnisch immer noch "Brunszwik", also eine leichte Abwandlung des niederdeutschen "Brunswiek". Daher hast Du grundsätzlich recht, dass die sprachabhängigen Namensvarianten in der Regel nichts mit Territorialansprüchen zu tun haben...
Aber leider ist es mit den Namen von Orten die vor den 2. Weltkrieg (oder noch früher: ein Freund nannte Poznań/Posen eine "urdeutsche Stadt" ;-D) zu Deutschland gehört haben anders - frag mal Kai-Jan Kutscher oben, ob er trotz seines Kommentars "Die Stadt heißt Breslau!" sagen die Unverletzlichkeit der deutsch-polnischen Grenze entlang der Oder-Neiße-Linie bejahen würde.
@@Tholomaios woher willst du wissen was Kutscher damit zum Ausdruck bringen wollte? Du interpretierst da eine politische Agenda rein, die man umgekehrt in das Beharren auf polnische Schreibweisen und in automatische Unterstellung einer politischen Intention, genauso hinein interpretieren könnte... Bspw. hat die DDR auf kleinmaßstäbigen Karten bei denen nur 4 Städtenamen in Polen Platz finden geschrieben: Wroclaw, Warschau, Gdansk, Krakau... Ich gehe davon aus, dass das Springen zwischen Exonym und Endonym offensichtlich ist und die Auswahl welche Orte wie geschrieben werden die politische Agenda klar genug offenbart.
Letzten Endes lässt sich nur an dieser ungleich Nutzung eine klare Agenda erkennen... An der reinen Nutzung des Endonym oder Exonym lässt sich im speziellen Fall der Ostgebiete noch nicht zwingend ein Hintergedanken ablesen... Nur das Eskalieren darüber deutet an, dass Demjenigen um mehr geht als nur die grundsätzliche Nutzung von Endonym und Exonym... Oder wer bspw. Mailand sagt aber auf Poznan besteht muss sich fragen lassen woher die Indifferenz stammt...
Lügner !
@IustitiaPax
Polonization due to trade? Never heard of that, but maybe you are right. However I really wonder how that should have worked. Trade brings only news, wealth and technology but only settlement changes the ethnic composition.
But gladly we agree now, that Silesias Slavic population was initially Polish, from the moment Czech and Polish diversified.
Btw. I know Lusitians are a people of their own.
Many publications about Zobtenberg in Nimptsch (Niemcza) by scientists.
Silesia remains German. And this speech by the Federal Chancellor Adenauer illustrates the rightful aspirations of the survivors of the criminal anti-German genocide and expulsion from 1945-1950. Just because Germans lost the war and just because the SS was German, does not justify crimes against humanity, German Silesian were humans. Please uphold the memory of German Silesia. Maybe once the reconciliation will come and Poland will recognize the former crimes!
´Anti-Slavism´ was the applied policy towards Poles and lateron Russians and other Slavs in the SU from the very beginning.
Already the war itself was rasistic. Unlike the German armies behavior in the west, here in the east the army has been ordered to be brutal ("äußerste Härte") and to disregard any legal standards. German fighter pilots were shooting parachuting Polish collegues and shot into cicilians fleeing on roads, to name two examples. Russians received an even worse treatment.
There are legally defined limits for what "utter harshness" is allowed in war. We call that laws of war, e.g. Genevian Convention. The principle is, that armies should fight armies and not harm civilians as far as possible. Shooting fleeing civilians on roads with no military anywhere near is not allowed and therefore a crime. Your attempt to justify that is pervert!
As well you seem to go completely mad: No "Soviet air planes [...] shot German civilians in 1939"! They were allies until 1941!
so are you german or polish??because in another movie you said you are polish:P and we dont call silesians germans.But anyway i know that wermacht use silesians as soldiers but it wasnt their fault.people shoud live in peace i dont care whats your nationality until you act against country.Peace
Wie konnte er das den Schlesiern nur versprechen, bei der Politik, die er vorangetrieben hat. Aber Hauptsache, die Menschen bleiben ruhig und lassen sich einlullen. Das war damals nicht anders als heute.
@Nibiru3600KN PS: Auch hier auf UA-cam gibt es interessante Videos zum Thema: "BRD - Eine große Lüge"
Wie kommst Du darauf, dass ich Amerikaner bin? Ich lebe nur in Amerika.
Welcome Home
@IustitiaPax Otton III didn't have choice to consider Bolesław Chrobry as a king it was his duty as Cezar of Holy Roman Empire. Mieszko (duke) baptised him self and Poland in 966 marrying czech princes. So Poland was chrystianized by czechs to be independent from Germans, first Polish Bischop was czech. Each ruler of christian country in Europe at this time was consider as a king. Meybe some bishops were Germans thats ok we were tolerant.
Leider nie passiert
Ohne vorgelagerter oder zeitgleiche Wiedervereinigung war das territorial unmöglich, bzw. Polen hätte die 10 Millionen Deutschen wieder zurück kommen lassen können... aber die hätten dann 20% der Bevölkerung ausgemacht. Quasi unbegrenzte Massenremigration von potenziell feindseligen Personen hätte Polen niemals zugelassen. Und die Deutschen im Westen zu denen Adenauer sprach? Wären die freiwillig in das arme kommunistische Polen gegangen?
Die Bewegung war ja genau umgekehrt. Die verbliebenen und/oder noch als Geiseln gehaltenen Deutschen sind sobald es ging in den Westen ausgewandert und haben ihre Heimat hinter sich gelassen...
@@Map2Brain Machte ja auch Sinn bei der Stimmung. Statt Versöhnung spielt man die Armen gegeneinander aus.
Beispiel, 100 vCh siedeln die germanischen Goten im Raum Danzig, Name der Stadt vermutlich Gothiscandza.
kann das sein das du völlig vom thema abweichst
You are not a true Silesian anymore than Jozéf Beck was a German (he had a German name though, like Vacláv Klaus, proving the German heritage of culture of the West Slavic areas). There is more in Silesia than mostly Polish Katowice. 95 % of Silesia was German-speaking. The innocent eastern Germans were forcefully expelled and deported, and hundreds of thousands murdered by the "great" Polish and Soviet (Russian) "liberators".
@lustitiaPax wusste ich gar nicht, wieder was gelernt :-) naja, ich war damals ja auch noch ein kleiner Knirps
@IustitiaPax
1. Since you yourself mentioned the Polish dukes, you know that there indeed was a unified kingdom before, actually far before 1386.
You know what? I have a German history book from 1942 (!) and even there "Mieszkos Reich" and later on Poland is shown on the maps. Mieszko's state was baptised already in 966 and it existed already earlier. Already in 966 it comprised Silesia as well a Pomerania.
Verraten und verkauft . Aber nicht vom guten Konrad .
Das ist ein Satz ohne jede Substanz. Und das kannst Du auch selbst überprüfen: Tausche in dem Satz polnisch, sowjetisch und alliiert mit deutsch und er wird genau den gleichen Erkenntniswert besitzen: keinen.
Es sind leer Behauptungen und Unterstellungen.
@adolchr Und wenn das nicht genug Argumente für "blühende Landschaften" sind, dann weisss ich auch nicht...
@IustitiaPax
Now that's a great reference I can check! I could give "Many publications by scientists" as a reference for EVERYTHING I say.
If you have a source you got that from, name it!
@IustitiaPax I'm not blemeing Nazi only but fact is U killed more people than Soviets. Hitler Plan was to exterminate moste of Poles leave some to work for Germany as slaves, Stalin plan was to killed those only who will be a problem , those who could unite Poles in freedom fight against soviets. Prof Norman Davies in his books sayes 2WW was a first conflict were civilians suffered the most. If Nazis would not lounch exterminations machins on east, now those killed list would be shorter.
Um 600 nCh kommen die slawischen Kaschuben und nennen das Gebiet Po-Morje, am Meer und die Stadt Gydanzik.
Stutthof camp? This was a labour camp, nothing more. It has a special place in Polish Communist and now national-chauvinist propaganda, but was nothing special. In Potulice 1946 until 1947 more ethnic Germans were killed or died due to untreated typhus than in six years in KZ Stutthof near Danzig.
nein wie unkompliziert und praktikabel für einzelne privatinvestoren :D
Nur meine Sprüche passen besser und sind vor allem richtig.
Berlin i Drezno to słowiańskie miasta i powinne wrócić do macierzy, do POLSKI!
@IustitiaPax In 1939 Poland got two choices too fight with Germans against russians and after being expelled or fight against Geramans offcourse ally with Soviets was imposilble.
dieser Tag MUST kommen!
Ja, ja, ja - jetzt mal Ruhe hier mit solchen Ordinärtheiten, gerade zu Karfreitag! Miss halt Deinen, wenn's Dir Spaß macht!
Based on self-determination of peoples, expulsion and genocide of 1945-1949 were crimes and Silesia etc. should be subjected to a referendum with old inhabitants.
@mehdan2
What a stupid demand...
As well I could say: "Return Frankfurt, the Lebussian Area and Lusatia to Poland"
The borders are just as they are now.
Germany's eastern border was at the Elbe river, when it was founded in 936 AD. All territories east of that were only conquered later on.
@vacatbel
Bullshit, my friend :D our argumantation style is very well ;)
1. Austria don´t suppres Minorities that much like Pols or Hungarians did. The Royalparliament had Members from all Nations of Austria.
2. max. 20 Million. if you believe there is a collective guild for the germans there is a collective guild for all... also for the Poles... what they did to the germans, jews or after 1945 to the ukrainians... your logic is the logic of fools... like nazis.
der kanzler der alliierten
The war was not racist. Stop telling lies. Slovakians, Croats, Bulgarians, Ukrainians were all allies of the German Empire in WW2 and well-respected. Racial theories were just that, theories. You believe lies. The reason for harsh war, were NKVD stay behind, Soviet partisans, Armia Krajowa 400,000 fighters in underground, reprisals for resistance. Protektorat e.g. had all Czech culture groups etc. and Ukrainian schools were opened in Sanok by Germans.
@SuperPoliboy
Also als angeblicher ehemaliger Richter der 63 Jahre alt sein soll, ist erstens dein Nick etwas ...zu jugendlich, zweitens deine Auffassung von Recht und Geschichte extrem fragwürdig.
Was immer deine Anekdote mit der Garage sagen sollte...