Lord of the Flies: Crash Course Literature 305
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
- This week, John is talking about one of his least favorite novels, The Lord of the Flies by William Golding. Lord of the Flies is a novel of ideas, and John doesn't agree with the central idea of the novel, which diminished his enjoyment of the book. The central idea of the book is that everyone has evil in their hearts. Which we don't necessarily agree with. That said, it's a good read, and worth reading.
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Can we put 20 british 7-8 year old school kids on a tropical island and just settle this argument? I can kick in $20.
spacecadet28 the time the novel was set played a key role in the boys behaviour. They were brought up in a society full of war and violence
if they're a bunch of posho boarding school kids like in the book it'd probably be kinder because it would save them from the the routine noncing that goes on in those places
they would die soon before getting "evil"
oof ill kick in $200
6-12
William Golding gave an interview where he cited two main reasons for not including women in this book. He said that he was more acquainted with the behavior of little boys, since he himself had only a brother. Additionally, he claimed that he did not want sexual activity, an innate component of savagery, to be included in this book because it would complicate the dynamics of the island.
Why couldn't women be included without sexual activity? And sexual activity is not limited to interactions between men and women. Besides, these are children we are talking about. Sexual activity is an excuse.
Red Potter it makes sense to not include girls imo
Your right, they already were murdering pigs in a cult like manner and trying to kill other little boys.
I completely agree with his decision - it would have distracted from the main focus of the book in a massive way if gender relationships were in there. The topic of sexual attraction and boy-girl differences (in physical, mental and social development) would have to be dealt with, and it'd suddenly become a book about sexes, not about society and the individual. That said, I would still love to see a version of the story with a mixed boy and girl group. :) It would be longer, and boy is this a bad time for it because people would attack it for how it portrays genders regardless of how it does it (and boy would they hate it today if it tried to be faithful to reality, and even more so if by some impossible chance it was faithful to the time period), but it would add a lot of interesting stuff to see.
Red Potter how realistic would that be? Someone would get raped and even if it were consensual they were underaged.
My wife is a teacher of first and second graders and she claims that she can't leave the room for three minutes because the children would literaly kill eachother.
Not because they are evil or bad, just because they are careless.
Manuel Arellano that’s hilarious
I think I've figured out why this analysis doesn't hold up for me - but at the same time, I've realized why the book doesn't hold up for John, either. In focusing too much on the Beast/Lord/Pig Head Kebab and its almost comically grotesque rendition of The Evil(tm) that lurks in the heart of Man, he sees Golding as trying to portray a 'true image' of human darkness, which is obviously wretched in every perceivable way. But the subtle genius of the book for me is how it shows the real evil as plain, basic, and even boring: contrary to what John says here, Piggy is so obsessed with rational purity, he denies taking part in the murder of Simon, denies it is a murder at all, and blames the victim for his own death, all in the same scene. And the allusions to wartime strategy seen in the hypocritical adoption of face/body paint - an act of savagery when done by the Other, but purely pragmatic when used for one's own (ie. the Allied Forces') agenda. The Beast is a bogeyman, not the actual symbolic representation of human evil. It's the "Other", a desperate construction which we project all manner of evil qualities upon, yet fail to recognize in ourselves, because it's just so mundane when we do it.
How can you talk about this book in the context of WWII without discussing the various other lessons that have emerged from that same war? The Nuremberg defense. Arendt's concept of the Banality of Evil. The Stanford Prison Experiment. The Milgram Experiment. Holocaust denial. One of the most lasting cultural legacies of the Holocaust/WWII in general is the way in which it fundamentally and irreparably dented the concept of default human goodness, by demonstrating how unsettlingly EASY it is to commit evil, once the context around it has been normalized. The ending of this video seemed shockingly tone deaf: "but the war did end". Dude, seriously, c'mon. It didn't end by everyone coming to their senses, announcing a ceasefire based on mutual trust, and drafting out peace treaties based on the highest ethical standards at the time. It ended as it began: by normalized force. THAT is the point of Lord of the Flies - evil doesn't look like the Beast. It looks like normal life - until it a stranger comes by and asks you why you thought it was a good idea to set your own island on fire, or drop an atom bomb on a city, and then it doesn't. If you wanna get Freudian about it, the moment your superego starts vindicating the worst parts of your id, there's no stopping the ego from rationalizing some terrible, terrible things.
But at the same time, I can understand why this book flops for some people. It's very hit-or-miss, IMO. You have to be pre-sold on the premise that evil is easy, and easy to escalate - once you do, all the rich subtleties fall into place. If you don't, the allegory seems like kitschy hyperbole. But to that I say: the Nuremberg defense, the Stanford Prison trials and the Milgram experiment all seem kitchy and hyperbolic in concept, too. And yet they bore some genuine, awful fruit.
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The problem with LoTF is that all the psychological factors you list are show to only apply in the context of violence -> i.e. that violence can beget more violence and encourage others to violence but the reverse is not true - Ralph and Piggy's pleas/arguments do not make those "just following orders" question their orders nor can they rally any kind of counter movement to Jack's gang.
I much prefer the "3%"'s version.
Isolation and a food shortage lead to a rich entitled boy forming a gang which terrorize and steal the food from all the other kids. But as soon as the other kids realize what is going on some of them band together and build a defenses to prevent the gang from stealing their food.
Eventually it all ends when a kid who has escaped the isolation & has been watching it all go down from safety returns and rallies the terrorized kids into fighting back who then in a fit of mob justice murder the bullies.
Thats pretty deep
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This is really great analysis!
"A man's true nature is revealed when he knows he will never be caught"
This is it. I think too much is being made here about absolutes, but I never interpreted it that way - only that it's possible, and likely, for us to degenerate into savagery when there are no consequences and when we lack maturity and behave as children. That this descent happens "too quickly" is not a very valid criticism. It's 12 chapters, how long do you want Golding to take to make his point? I think Greene maybe knows too much about Golding's history and reads too much into it? Going in without that information, the novel worked for me.
I think that Golding's message was pretty spot on with the theme. One of John's criticisms with this book is that Golding contradicts himself with the theme that all humans are inherently evil because of Ralph and Piggy. That they do not take part of the violent acts. But they do take part in the violence when they kill Simon. Ralph and Piggy have evil within them just like the rest of the boys but are better at fighting off their evil tendencies then Jack and the others. But ultimately cave in to their evil desires when they kill Simon.
I'd say that wasn't them caving into desires but rather mob rule and fear of being cast out and potentially murdered... still doesn't really make them not evil though.
Piggy was worse than evil. He was useless.
yeah but what about Simon? He doesn't seem to have an innate evil like Golding says
He was the literary Christ figure.
Yeah, that makes sense. When they killed Simon, it was to make a point that they are fighting the evil within, but they did fail to possible fear and the natural wickedness. They were later aware of their actions and what they've become instead of Jack and his tribe, who only figured that out in the end.
Everyone does have evil inside them. Even Ralph was slowly turning savage represented by the growth of his hair shielding his sight and he was slowly forgetting reasons to be saved. They just descend into savagery at slower rates
Yeah and dont forget than even him and Piggy participated in Simon's murder
Absolutely correct, same as the other commenter said too. Ralph was attempting to cling on to civility, and thus is a symbol of it. Piggy is not supposed to be one of the boys, really, he is just a symbol for logic and rationality. All the criticisms in this video are shallow and reek of an attempt to dumb down literature through political correctness. John green is the last person who should do literature reviews, considering the intellectual depth of his book.
Simon was innocent
Thank you! Finally someone said the words that were trying to leave my mouth.
@Curtis Molina I believe Simon was more of a reprsentation of spirituality, when he realizes that the "Monster" wasn't some tangible entity like the other boys believed it was but rather something that was inside of all of them, he embraced the evil within and was balanced as a result and rushed to tell the others that the "monster" was not some physical entity, but sadly for Simon, his words fell on deaf ears and the first thing that dies when civilization is gone is spirituality, he too was gone at the hands of those who were blind to the true evil. So ultimately, Simon wasn't untouched by evil but rather he came to understand that evil exist but you cannot run from it, only embrace it and keep it in check, running from it only causes it to grow larger and more imposing until it takes over your mind, body and soul.
My English teacher also mentioned how the 4 main characters (Ralph, Jack, Piggy, and Simon) represent different ways of governing and making decisions. Ralph governs through common sense, Jack rules with emotion, Piggy uses intellect, and Simon uses morality or spirituality. I always found that to be the most interesting part of the novel, because people always focus on how power is distributed or enforced in governments, but just as important is how the conclusions are reached.
I've found that optimists tend to hate Lord of the Flies, and cynics tend to like it.
+Martin Vargic Shouldn't it be the other way around?
Cynic and while not Marxist I do think the idea of trusting the free market to be about as smart as self immolation
So true haha. Where do realists fit in though? Guess they died along with Puggy
I'm relatively cynical, I dislike it. Then again, "relatively cynical" is a polite way of saying that my optimism and pessimism... "levels" are unpredictable.
The book is only pessimistic from the view of people who dislike it.
I consider myself an optimist for reading a book with a sad message and still liking it (and liking life) :P
The man at the end didn't just show up at random...all of the children were trying to kill Ralph so Ralph hid...once the children found him they set fire to a bushel Ralph was hiding in to smoke him out and in doing so set the whole island on fire which resulted in a huge smoke signal which drew the ship in to investigate. So in a weird way them being murderous savages is what got them saved.
An allusion to colonialism maybe? Because, the British, and other colonial powers, justified colonialism as a civilising mission, it is the 'native's' infantile 'savagery' that sent them there
"saved" aka getting plunged back into nuclear war that caused a bunch of kids to kill each other.
Pudding Pop But if you also think about it, if Jack and his crew didn’t leave to kill the pig, the first fire wouldn’t have gone out and they would have been rescued earlier.
Pudding Pop: you sound little as if it was ok to do bad things because you can never know if not maybe something good comes out of it.
I don't feel like Pudding Pop is justifying violence, just wants to clarify the ending for the people who thought that the rescue was deus ex machina
In my English class we listened to a tape of Golding and he is actually for the idea that women are even superior to men. In the specific interview we listened to he stated that he left girls out because they tend to mature quicker and the book was to be aimed at primal instinct that comes with immaturity. He thought girls in the novel would bring too much of a practical and just reason for things happening on the island.
Rena Jensen makes sense. Also why he made all the boys prepubescent
that's pretty sexist in itself. it denies women their full humanity, denigrates men, and perpetuates the myth that growing up is somehow drastically and unbridgeably different for boys and girls.
I guess it makes sense if that is what he thought. But using that reasoning, if girls mature faster, then it is just as easy to find our more primal sides when you age us down. Or he believed that the primal nature of girls and boys is fundamentally different? Or (most likely) using a bunch of even younger girls to show the base evilness of humanity with murder and "savagery" would not sell well. It's just a weird book in my opinion.
He could have made some of the littuns girls so that they would have been as mature as the biguns, (considering his way of thinking).
affirmative action is like getting mad at KFC for selling only chicken
If they are making a female version of lord of the flies does that mean piggy is now mrs.piggy?
Only if Piggy is married. Ms. Piggy is what I'm guessing you meant.
😂
Pigglety
Best reply in the entire comment section
They could do it as revamp for you know.... equality
am I like the only one who likes this book?
yeah
Brady otter nooo
Nope. I love it for some reason....
Brady otter nah fam, I liked it
No
John Green, you've given Simon no love!
Joshua Trott right?! Simon is such a great character. I actually really love this book because none of its characters are completely flat - they all have at least one redeeming quality to them, or have shown a capacity for respecting and doing good. Even Jack, jerk that he is, had a certain confidence and charisma, and he originally was on board with Ralph when it came to maintaining peace and order. Even Roger was able to suppress his sadistic tendencies for a while, instead of giving into them immediately. Piggy turned out to be an ultimately "good" character, but he also had his shortcomings - he could be whiny, nagging, and even a little cowardly.
Jesus jr
I would say that the characters in the book arent all meant to be individually human, but to collectively make up a human. They each represent a quality of humanity. For example, Samneric represent the weak but often innocent will of humans, and Roger is the part of humans that enjoy hurting others
"The theme of the book is that all humans are monsters without civilisation."
"Then why do Ralph and Piggy act good?"
Gee, maybe that isn't the theme then John.
oldtemberfury they act good but they still show violence, ralph even joined in on killing simon
They act good because they are symbols for civilization. They kill Piggy and hunt Ralph because they are rejecting civilization.
As someone else mentioned, they just descend into primitiveness slower
Lord of the flies is one of the best books I have read. Really enjoyed it
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This was the first book I really liked and it got me into reading
I made my first science video on my channel!
+ I am a nihilist & I love it too
honestly, usually I agree with John on most things, but I really feel like he is misinterpreting soooo much of this.
Explain...
agreed
because i don't feel like it was "savages bad/society good" or everyone is "inherently evil" and it's more like "people have the potential to do evil things, and that potential goes up depending on the environment they are in".
it's almost like someone saying "1984 is about the virtues of small government and traditional family values."
Reply
"I don't think its being sexist to exclude women from the book."
he's just trying to setup a way to have a bunch of young people on a deserted island.
definitely. John asks why Ralph resists the gang. I think he misses the point that some people do lack this depravity. It's not that all people are like most of the boys, some are good inside. I know a lot of people who are like this and a lot who are like the other boys.
Also, with the lack of girls, come on John, I though you wouldn't go the overtly feminist route, Golding could add girls but if I was Golding, I wouldn't because I'd have to write the boys trying to rape and torture the girls, which is just more complex than what I would want to right. And I like girls!
Primitive cultures aren't too relevant to the book. The boys were from a 1940s British boarding school, which had quite a bullying culture. Primitive cultures often have strong communities to survive in harsh environments but the boys didn't have that sort of childhood. Just look at the Stanford Prison experiment to see what one person can do to another when placed in a position of power and limited societal rules.
Exactly. I've always thought that it was pretty clear that the boys' "savagery" wasn't because they were living on an island, not wearing many clothes, and eating pigs, but that they were, y'know, killing each other.
Stanford prison experiment wasn’t accurate, they encouraged the people to be abusive so that they could make humanity seem worse than it actually is.
I think John didn't look at the English context of Golding's book. If Lord of the Flies was written about American children in the 50's, would it be the same?
Although I agree with much of what John is saying, particularly the point he makes that "not all humans are inherently evil," I must say that I actually quite enjoyed this book, and have read it three times over. I myself am rather more optimistic than cynical, and I have what people call a sunny personality, which is probably why many find it so shocking that I love "the dark themes," such as Fahrenheit 451, Lord of the Flies, All Quiet on the Western Front, Dracula, the Hunger Games, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, Frankenstein, and others, and I've found that most often, the characters I fall for are the ones with Gothic hearts.
So all in all, I think both John Green and William Golding are correct in their own way. People do have some kind of darkness within them, whether it be portrayed in their actions, behavior, words, beliefs, or even an obsession with a certain genre. Some people may truly be good, but it wouldn't be all that surprising to me to find out that they have a deep attraction towards "evil" themes, or slightly "malevolent" characters. It is this attraction towards evil which I believe all people possess, and while some find it easy to withhold the desire, others, like Jack and Roger, are easily persuaded and manipulated by its presence.
I think that is the real point of "Lord of the Flies." John states that if "all the boys have evil inside of them, why did Piggy and Ralph refuse to join Jack's group?" It is shown several times throughout the book that Ralph and perhaps even Piggy are tempted, overwhelmed even, by the presence of evil. They feel the desire, the attraction, the taunting wish to let go of their morals and principles. But the attraction is only that: an attraction, and while it can bring about blind actions of cruelty every once in a while, it is not strong enough to completely take hold of boys like piggy and Ralph.
as for the book being sexist, on that I completely disagree with John. A book is not sexist simply because it does not have any female characters in it. I am a female, and the thought that Golding was deliberately ignoring women never even crossed my mind. I believe a book with no female characters in it is far, far better than a book with a couple of air-headed flirts being the only portrayals of the female race.
For anyone who actually read through all of this, I would like to also say that I absolutely admire and respect John Green, and am actually quite glad of a chance to hear his opinion on one of my favorite books. He was the inspiration for me to start work on my own book, and if mine is even half as good as The Fault in Our Stars, I will be completely satisfied! His opinions are valid, honest, logical, and well-stated, and I hope I have declared my own opinions as graciously and fairly as his were.
"The central idea of the book is that everyone has evil in there hearts."
"...evil in there hearts."
"THERE hearts."
rip
I hope John Green didn't write that
+maresgoez "jhon"
fukerwolf 190 I guess we all make mistakes...
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Where is that said in the video?
The book was intended to convey the darkness of a man's heart in a warlike setting, I believe. You can see this when the British warship comes to rescue the boys and he looks upon them disprovingely. It is intended to emphasize that it is the exact same situation. Substitute Germany's hyper-civilized and enlightened ideas with the boys' innocence, and you will find how Golding portrays how evil can come from unlikely places. Then on the other hand you get the 'moral' Allies (the captian of the warship coming to end the madness) that bombed civilians into dust and basically destroyed a whole enemy city a night.
Given a warlike setting, it is understandable why he didn't add women. They didn't play a major part in the world wars, not where evil was concerned. Truth be told, Golding was screwed if he added women and screwed if he didn't. Truth be even more told, every book ever written could be construed as sexist in one way or another by modern feminism.
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A+
Completely agree with your point but I'd say it's unfair to state that women had a minor role during the war - they were pivotal on the Home Front despite lacking an active military role
+Brayney 26 "not where evil was concerned."
I have time to kill so lemme add some stuff to this.
+Jessica Nguyen
I like your point, especially given that in the book, the females, or the female voices seem to all suffer terrible fates, with the sow killed in a horribly disturbing way and stuff. The only other mentioned female is Piggy's Aunt, whom Piggy continuously quotes (hence female voice), and see what happened to him.
Also looking at WWII in Asia to compare to the Europe's, 'comfort woman' as in sex slaves should be a well known enough example. The rape/brutalizing of women of occupied places could be an example too, but it's a little more difficult to find unless you look at interviews/accounts of people who lived through WWII.
With the things that Golding was trying to convey, it would be unwise to put female humans in the book, as it would inevitably become either graphic or disturbing or both. It was simply more convenient to leave females out of his story. Additionally, I believe that another reason could be that his experiences with schoolgirls are much less than with schoolboys.
John I want you to know that as someone who's heavily dyslexic I don't enjoy reading. Because of that I never really look at books in such a way that I can interpret them on several different levels. This series opened my eyes to the depths novels can reach and I cannot thank you enough for doing what you're doing
Actually, Ralph an Piggy do not always keep their moral values, as- I found in proprofs quizzes- "To an extent, even the seemingly civilized Ralph and Piggy are products of social conditioning, as we see when they participate in the hunt-dance"
Like if you approve!
"Everyone has depravity/evil in their hearts" is not how I read the novel. Like you said, if that were the message, then Ralph and Piggy would directly contradict it. Rather, I read a novel about how humans are drawn to simplicity when faced with a complex world.
The book is about little boys to exacerbate this problem: it is especially hard for young people to think abstractly. The Conch democracy is confusing and abstract, and even Ralph struggles to remember the purpose of the signal fire as hope for rescue fades. Jack's society is immediate, valuing the visceral rush of chasing and killing, and it quickly dominates the island. This is comparable to Nazi Germany--life in post-WWI Germany was confusing and hopeless, so they were attracted to the simplicity of scapegoating the Jews.
The boys' war paint is an unfortunate reference to "savagery," yes, but it leads to one of my favorite ideas in the book--that Jack and the boys paint their faces to free themselves from individual responsibility. This is no different from men wearing military uniforms or waving flags: when you surrender yourself to this sort of group, you can commit the worst atrocities and feel no guilt so long as the group supports you.
There's more I could say, but I encourage you to reread the novel without presuming its argument. It's not trying to say "civilization is great and people suck"--rather, it attempts to explain why civilizations so often turn to genocide and war.
DISCLAIMER: Lord of the Flies is one of my favourite books.
First off, a book of ideas can be good even if you disagree with the idea. Prose for example. Golding's prose isn't THAT great in LOTF, but it becomes quite good in his later books.
Secondly, the most obvious thing you need to get about LotF is that it's a metaphor FOR society. Once we start feeling that resources are limited, we organize ourselve. If that organization fails, the excesses come out. People get crueler and superstitious (Jack and friends), more scared/repulsed by those who are different (Simon, who represents a messiah figure, and piggy, who represents the scientific figures), and psychopaths (which is what Roger represents, NOT all humans as this video claims) basically get free reign, like in the world wars. The breakdown of the rules STILL HAPPENS in society. It always has.
Now here's the thing. Golding gives various reasons for why normal kids (or people) would resort to such evils, and those reasons aren't far-fetched at all: fear, need for resources, the sort of stuff a good society provides us with.
Another misconception, I feel, is the claim that Rousseau would disagree. He would PARTLY, but the savage state (hunting and leaving outcasts) is something he said was natural. Natural isn't NON-EVIL to him. Natural transcends evil or good, those are concepts of society, concepts that Rousseau believed constrained us. Take from that what you will about Rousseau.
Lastly, the "Beast" is not a metaphor for evil itself, it is a metaphor for our fear of the unknown, and ultimately of death. This fear itself can lead to evil, but doesn't have to. This is where Simon as the messiah figure comes in (typically a bit mentally unstable in the book), who sees through to the core. Evil is something inside us all, yes, but it is possible and desireable to resist it. hence why Ralph and Piggy are able to behave well.
As for the sexism stuff, LotF is a metaphor for society and at the time of Golding (and most of history), that Society has been patriarchal. It is simply descriptive. Golding also added that he himself was more familiar with how young boys act (having been a boy), and that things would become needlessly complicated by having to deal with the problem (NOT triviality) of sexual relations in the book.
divinesleeper Dude your analysis is amazing omg
This felt like an opinion piece not a in depth look.
Agree :/
Yeah :/ disappointed with John on this
Yah lord of the flies is a great book and discussing it in school with my class was a great memory
Any analysis of art is subjective
I mean everyone is gonna interpret it differently?
The scene where Simon confronts the Lord of the Flies is probably one of my favorites in all of literature. "I'm the reason. I'm the reason why nothing can ever work. You cannot run from me. You'll find me down on the beach, for I am inside of you." Paraphrasing here but you get the idea. It's so powerful.
He call pessimism what he doesn't know about war. I think that after a war you would have a better understanding of humanity than through a 1000 good novels.
But after war it's possible that you would only understand human nature through war. This then leads to questions of Whether the truth of human nature is better revealed in times of war or in times of peace.
99thTuesday In time of peace, in western countries, at least half of the population still thinks and acts as if it is in dire need of basic resources. Their fears, lack of empathy and sense of community is dramatically close to living in a jungle. Our "peace time" is a product of our mind. We don't perceive as ours the struggle of people far or different from us. But nonetheless others are, in this very moment, paying the price around the world of our cheap gas, food and resources. Don't forget that.
Human nature leads to wars though. Our primal instincts of survival are savage. Many prisoners of war resorted to eating their comrades merely to stay alive.
+John Doe it also creates bias, don't forget that it is the same experience that caused the creation of "shell shock syndrome", which is an old title for PTSD, an illness that skews perspective and affect a large portion of those involved in war.
+John Doe You are wise
Wow, so biased. Amazing.
If you want an objective analysis, just go read the summary on Wikipedia
They should've had a different host for this particular book. John is too opinionated to analyze this book objectively.
Humans are inherently biased an objective analysis of the book would be lord of the flies is a book in which there are male children and two or three kids die, Simon is murdered by his friends and piggy is killed by rocks, there is a fire that might have killed another one but he was not given a name, a choir boy becomes the leader of a tribe of the boys who don't attempt to escape and the book ends when they burn the entire island and chase a boy named Ralph until a person from the navy picks them up
+U1TR4F0RCE an objective in-depth literary analysis can be archieved. What you did is just a plot summary, the same thing wikipedia does. Yes, we are all biased, but I think that when you study a work of art you must look beyond your personal perspective, and even more when you are trying to teach it.
+Richard Bahena there is no such thing as objective analysis of literature.
War is like prison, it only ends for those who were not in it
It's shadow work. The fact that it makes you so uncomfortable shows how effective it is
9:30 Glorious. Now killing a pig is sexism. That makes literally no sense.
A _female_ pig! How do you not see the sexism in that?!
It's about the language and framing of the killing. It isn't an overt sexism and it seems John really inflates it, but the sexism is there and it is valuable to observe women's absence despite this scene.
Stop sexist pig!
Its feminism! Don't racionalize it, just accept.
Amen.
Friendshipismagic Yes.
Say amen.
Hikari Kimiko Kiyoko
In Anita Sarkeesian's name we trust.
Amen.
To be fair, Lord of the flies is a million times better than any of Ayn Rand´s books
wow it must be super good then
Also much better than anything Green himself has written.
Seth Apex
I just hate the plot of every one of her books. Their all about some ungodly magnificent person who feels that everyone around him is weighing him down and how he shames those people from keeping his magnifiscent work away from the world. God, its so pretentious and condescending, and what annoys me the most is that they encourage selfishness. Also Rand is a prick
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I made my first science video on my channel!
Why is this video in the Education category? I feels more like an opinion piece.
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T. H. Caro agreed. Though, in this sense it seems to be a literary analysis.
The last few minutes were opinion, but the majority of it was the author's biography and the themes of the novel.
People are educated largely from the opinions of others...
@@5celery What is?
People don't like being shown uncomfortable truths. When books show them to them, people don't like those books.
As for what you say in 8:20, just because there's inherent evil in all of us doesn't mean there isn't also amazing good. We are the same species that committed genocides and cured plagues, that tortured souls and gave eyes and legs to the blind and lame through our prosthetics.
To say that he is wrong because Piggy and Ralph are still trying to be good, is a blind man to assure his blind friend that this elephant is not like a tree trunk, it is obviously like a rope.
Tragic truth
Dude, sometimes, a pig is just a pig. Maybe the author refrained from having girls in the book exactly to avoid people such as yourself from trying to make sexist parallels.
dude, they shove a stick up the sow's anus. it's not just a pig.
It isn't sexist because there's a female character in the story, it's being interpreted as sexist by John because of the way that female character was treated in the story. And yes while the boys were tortured and suffered as well, their torture wasn't sexualized, and no statement on sex was made with it. With the female pig's death she was spear raped to death, I mean c'mon now. I'm not even saying that the scene was sexist, but it is *clearly* obvious that the author was making a specific point in that scene regarding women, and to deny it is just dishonest.
Diana, the Inorganic Vegan What are you even referring to? I think you mean Vlad, but then why are you mentioning an author? I don't think this is a matter of over-thinking, I think you're just in denial.
Diana, the Inorganic Vegan ... Never said it was anti-woman, again quit putting words in my mouth. Quit being so paranoid.
+Diana, the Inorganic Vegan You're bad at arguing, do it less. The vlad comparison is off due to the fact that you misunderstand the other person's original point: the killing of the pig wasn't "sexist", it was "sexualized". Comprehension is key.
I find that the analysis of this novel as an exploration of the toxicity of a particular type of masculinity is the most compelling interpretation, even if the author had no idea that he was doing so. He thought he was writing about the inherent evil that lives in all men, but he failed to recognize that this evil is A) not inherent but rather learned, B) not in all men (even within the context of the novel as John points out) and C) essentially exclusive to men.
To be clear, evil may lay in the heart of all persons, but this particular type of evil is decidedly masculine. Golding's mistake (as is all too common) is to assume that his experience as a white man is the default experience of all humanity. This is probably why he thought that including any female characters would have been a complicating factor rather than, you know, as essential part of humanity. Their femininity would have gotten in the of the way of his analysis of humanity, which is another way of saying that he doesn't consider femininity a part of humanity, or that his analysis is not of humanity but of masculinity.
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I found this a very interesting analysis. Thank you for sharing it.
This is hilarious. How absolutely deluded. Enjoy living in your own privileged middle class bubble.
Maybe when you start working and enter the real world you'll learn a thing or two. Even as just a cashier I can wholeheartedly say you're wrong as Women love taking advantage of and abusing the female cashiers that work with me. Sociology 101 isn't too useful in real world interactions.
👍
I liked lord of the flies in High School. It was really good i thought.
I missed you Mr Green. i took it for granted that i always saw you on crash course, and now i see new people. If you're stepping down and passing the tourch just know that i truly appreciate your sessions
So is it deemed a sexist novel because of the lack of girls or because boys are portrayed as evil?
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both
both ... sort of. the 'umbrella' reason as to why it's called a sexist novel is because of its lack of female characters (aside from the pig) and everything under the umbrella is what you said 'because boys are portrayed as evil'. it's sexist in the sense that the book makes you think that you can summarize all of humanity and strip it down to what it''s really made of by using teenage boys. the problem with that is that you can't summarize anything without thinking about everything that is present in humanity: socialization, the development of communities and of course, females. boys being portrayed as evil in the novel is Golding's attempt to say that 'because i have these boys doing evil things, assume all humans are like that because boys are'. essentially, using boys as a baseline for describing all of humanity is what makes it sexist because it assumes that men are the 'default' gender in our world, which is simply not the case.
Both but more the first thing; John also notes that the novel sidesteps the question of whether girls would be more civilized in this case or if they would be as equally depraved.
Eh, probably both. Though can you call call a book sexist if the author makes it clear he hates all human beings equally?
5:52 "Problematic"
*cringes*
It's about to get problematic in here
Are you triggered by the word? Need a help group or an aggression-free zone? ;D
LOTF is such a good book. Such an accurate perception of human nature... Truly a classic
Glad he takes a perspective on these books, and even more for a thorough defense. Respect.
Can you please cover John Steinbeck's of mice and men
these are the books they are doing
Their Eyes Were Watching God - Zora Neale Hurston
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn - Mark Twain
Sonnets - William Shakespeare (Particularly sonnets 18, 116, & 130)
Lord of the Flies - William Golding
Invisible Man - Ralph Ellison
100 Years of Solitude - Gabriel Garcia Marquez
Sula - Toni Morrison
Oh okay thanks
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...in gasoline then light a match? (Is the end of that question, right?)
although I love john green's analysis, this one seemed a bit too tainted with personal bias. I love lord of the flies. it's gritty realism coupled with such powerful symbolism truly sets it apart from most conventional classics. also Green fails to appreciate how this book got Golding a nobel prize
I absolutely loved Lord of the Flies, and watching this video helped me realize that it was because I also felt like the novel had a different message than what Golding intended. The way I see it, the novel shows that there are inherently good people as well as inherently bad people, but without the confines of order, the bad will always overwhelm the good. It's pretty easily applicable to the world today.
I read it this year, and I liked it (although now that you point these things out I agree). My favorite part is that at the beginning Jack legitimately thinks being able to sing C# makes him a qualified leader.
ok...i just finished the entire thing and I couldn't disagree more. from start to finish I completely disagree.
Could you elaborate? Curious to see why you think so.
because i don't feel like it was "savages bad/society good" or everyone is "inherently evil" and it's more like "people have the potential to do evil things, and that potential goes up depending on the environment they are in".
it's almost like someone saying "1984 is about the virtues of small government and traditional family values."
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+karlhungusjr1 +
YES!! THIS!!!
He lost me when he said the book is sexist.
I'm struggling to understand how a book with literally no female characters can be sexist. You can't say anything against the female gender if there are no female in your story. If anything the fact everything goes wrong on an island with no females, is an indication we need women to help keep things under control.
@Buc Reviewer I believe his main point was how the only female character within the book was a pig who was slaughtered in a rather sexual way
Exactly! There can be equality in value despite differences. Girls have different instincts and are overall fundamentally different from boys. It's ridiculous to say that the book is sexist just because it doesn't feature a girl. There were reasons behind why not.
@@seanwaddell2659 I doubt a female pig was meant at all to represent human girls. Sure, I get your point, but it was a pig. Pigs' genders don't matter as much in that sense, in my opinion.
@Elsa D I don't really believe it was meant to either, I was just trying to represent the point that John made. Whether or not it is sexist, is up for debate. I'm personally withholding judgment until I can hear a good argument from both sides. For instance, the argument that was presented as to why it was, could be seen as anecdotal evidence, but we don't really have enough information to make much of a case for either side. A reason for why Golding only had boys is, as Golding said in an interview, he didn't want any sexual activity (other than the pig ritual thing), which would match the savagery of the book. Thanks for the input though, I appreciate hearing more points of view!
I'm not here because of school like probably everyone else, I just love the book, favourite book I ever read, and I read it without being told to
Personally, I appreciated his analysis. Honestly, classic literature is very hard to interpret the same by every person. Everyone perceives books and their messages differently, and that’s why I love these discussions. Lord of the Flies is one of the most argued over books because it has so many different themes and messages that are perceived differently by different people. Thank you for bringing this video and your perspective to the table John. :)
what we really are is F) Dancer
i just wanted to make an innocent The Killers joke and here we are :(
"Reverse-racism doesn't exist." Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. BI
So, basically he doesn't like this book because it's offensive to hunter-gather like tribes and women? The SJW shines strong in this one.
He doesn't like it because he feels it is a skewed and inaccurate depiction of human nature. It's not about being "offensive."
Don't you have anything better to do than troll youtube comments unconvincingly pretending to be an absurdly extremist SJW? You're embarrassing yourself.
john is an SJW now
+Gothicscull234Gmail I'm pretty sure "Martin Vargic" is trolling.
+OlaftheFlashy I know but teenagers with no social life and too much time on there hands like me have the option to do this.
Behind the certain flaws of this book, I do appreciate the multitudes of grim symbolism. Whether it be the pig head on the stake, the conch, the beast, or adults fighting their war; there is always some aspect that does apply to the dark side of our human nature.
Thank you for explaining “Deus Ex Machina” so I can finally understand all those Cinema Sins jokes 👍🏽
I really, really disagree with you on this book. I'm a feminist, a psychologist, and a human, and this is one of my favourite books. I knew you dislike it, so I was really looking forward to hearing you talk about it and I'm astonished how different your interpretation is from the way I experienced the book. Psychologically, I find it realistic (I mean, the Stanford Prison experiment had a LOT of issues, many of them methodological, but it nevertheless shows us what humans can be like, particularly when hierarchies are introduced). From a feminist standpoint, I think it does a great job at criticising our way of constructing masculinity, its relationship to power, and its harmful effects. And it does a great job at illustrating how fragile peace and "civilization" are - I use quotation marks because to me, this does not mean Western civilization (as opposed to "savages" such as hunter gatherers), but just... civilization INCLUDING hunter gatherer societies. It shows how easy ANY type of civilization can break and lead to destruction and chaos, but not necessarily because of "nature" (after all, the island was peaceful before those kids arrived), but because of the dark side of our culture such as hunger for power or unhealthy gender roles. I'm not saying that this is how Golding intended his book to be read, but that is how I interpreted it and why I like it so much.
finally someone with the same views :D
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I have found that the gap between the likes and dislikes of this book comes down to people who've read the book and people who haven't actually read the book and have just based their opinion on UA-cam comments and John Green's opinion on it.
The BBC prison study somewhat undermined the results of the Stanford prison experiments. I'm merely saying this as a point of interest, not a criticism.
so your sexist
I always thought that there were no girls because they were from an all boys school and travelling together. Male/female segregation in schools was fairly common. I never thought that part of the story odd at all...
Metabeard that makes sense but again why would a boarding school send it’s students away without talking to the parents? Like surely sending away the children would be something the parents would be a choice the parents want to be involved in . But it could have been a portion of the student population and that wasn’t a detail that was relevant to the story .
Glad I read the novel first before watching this "review".
While the book is greatly exaggerated, it isn't like we haven't seen similar effects. See: Stanford Prison Experiment.
We're not necessarily built for 'evil', but we sure do like it.
I don’t think that either civilization or human nature is evil. To believe that civilization or human nature is solely evil or moralizing presents us with a false dichotomy. Rather, I believe that all of us are inherently flawed. Our flaws are reflected in the ways that societies are structured. Whether we remove ourselves from civilization or not, we will bear witness to similar evils. However, there is good in us as well. Attempting to ignore our multi-faceted nature means depriving ourselves of truly understanding who we are and what we are capable of.
I am not flawed.
+Martin Vargic What about the Asians?
How is calling "spear throwing face painted people" backward problematic? Even in Golding's time, if a society were throwing spears instead of shooting guns, they were already far, FAR away from modernity. It's not a race issue either; many African, American, and South Asian societies had great cities and empires just like Europe did and adopted the most modern technology of their times. Saying that technologically primitive societies are backward is not wrong; saying technologically primitive societies are worse than modern ones, I'd argue, is also not wrong.
It's the implied _moral_ superiority that's the problem.
Shankar Sivarajan Ah. I mean that might be a problem if a society's morals weren't one of the least important determining factors to its survival and ability to thrive.
Martin Vargic Were Pakistani and Indian immigrants in Britain in substantial numbers in the 40s? I honestly don't know. If they were, then it would have been interesting to see how Golding would handle that on the island.
Cultural relativism. Defining or even trying to understand another culture by comparing it to what you personally believe as "right or wrong" is an inherently flawed concept. Applying the mores and values of one culture will more than likely never give you the ability to properly understand another.
jmvsic Not really sure why you would think that its misguided to understand another culture through the only lens you have to examine it. Not only that but one can reason why a certain cultural aspect is good or bad regardless of which culture is observing which.
I love the way John Green teaches! It is amazing!!!
I like how Crash Course included discussion on many of the allegories presented in the novel; however, it would be super helpful if you guys also included something on Freudian allegory!
Lord of the Flies is amazing! I was one of 3 people in my English class to enjoy it! I don't know why so many people dislike it
When some people are forced to read something they have a tendency to hate it.
+Ibuprofeno 1KG haha true true
exactly!! It made such an impact on me, I was literally crying at times, but it was my favorite book we read all year. I don't get why people hate on it so much. I suppose people are just afraid to admit that they might have some savagery in them, but I'm so glad I read the book, it was one of those life-changing things.
+Ibuprofeno 1KG Precisely this. I'm an avid reader but detested reading this and couldn't finish it.
one of 3 in a class of 30?
This is weird, usually it's the teacher that liked the book and me who hated it, but here it's totally reversed.
Thank you Mr. Green! I just took a job teaching English in an international school in Myanmar, and I have to teach this novel! One that I have avoided for all of my twenty year career! This helped a lot to give me perspective on how to approach it. Also, lots of kids here have read your novels, so they may listen to you....
Ok, first of all, The Lord of the Flies is a great book, and it is not proper to judge a book written in the twentieth century according to modern conventions about sex, gender and civilization.
I would argue that it is not proper NOT to judge a book written in the twentieth century by modern conventions. After all, literature is a way to explore the differences in eras and mindsets of those who write, and so this book should be considered in both its worldview and also our current worldview.
Ok, wheres the informational facts that I depend on? This is very opinionated, and not very objective. "Wars end", do they really, or they just name themselves differently?
Maybe its not such a good idea to review books you dislike. You should rename the video "My take on the Lord of the Flies."
He should review what books he wants, liked or disliked. People need to realize it's an opinion and not get so easily hurt by the fact that he didn't really like the book
@@grumpymonk2573 I dont really agree with you. I mean, this series isn't called "opinions," it's called "crash course." It is meant to give an accurate description. Sure, feel free to add a little bit of personal commentary, but the main purpose should be to inform, not persuade.
This book was a brilliant piece of literature and I believe that all should read it.
As a person who works with children on a daily basis, I have every confidence in the realism of Lord of the Flies
Golding also said that he only wrote about boys because 1. he has never been a girl 2. a mother and 3. a grandmother, he is not being sexist he is just going based on what he knows, he has been a boy, a father and a grandfather
then by his own logic (not knowing what is like to be the opposite sex, and therefore not knowing what it is like to be all of humanity) he should not be able to comment on all of humanity.
how biased can one video be?
A man who apparently hates the English reviewing a book mostly taught in English class written by an Englishman? John let the hate flow through him for this one.
@Mr. SodaCow That's most of John Green's videos I find. He needs to stop having a bias I'm his crash course videos because other than him inserting his beliefs and own personal ideas into it the videos can be quite educational.
I just reported this video as being biased to the max. This guy is dangerous if he's teaching kids out there. He's not teaching them how to think but what to think. Wow, he's very creepy.
@@okmelancholico omg calm down, he's not brainwashing people. The first half of the video was the plot and the themes and the type of book it was, the last half of the book was opinions and he has opinions on all his book reviews
@@ziab2840 Jeez, that was like more than half a year ago. Whatever dude, you think you.
Why didn't mention that its title is taken from the literal meaning of Beelzebub?
Right! Aka Satan. That knowledge adds so much more reasoning and symbolism. It makes the book make more sense 😂 I'm suprised he didn't cover that
I think Lord of The Flies is a great example of how death of the author can save a story.
In the book itself, it clearly shows people can maintain their goodness even despite savagery abounding around them, even to the extent of giving their lives for it. That while people are corruptible, they don't have to be inherently evil. Unfortunately, the author himself felt quite the opposite.
What was the nuclear war stuff that was cut from the book?
I actually enjoyed Lord of the Flies
Personally, after studying it for GCSE and analysing all the complexities and hidden meanings of this story, I have grown to love it!
brief ,concise and precise . Thankx a lot .
anyone watching this the night before the English lit exam tomorrow? GCSEs?
Because people keep asking these are the books they are doing
Their Eyes Were Watching God - Zora Neale Hurston
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn - Mark Twain
Sonnets - William Shakespeare (Particularly sonnets 18, 116, & 130)
Lord of the Flies - William Golding
Invisible Man - Ralph Ellison
100 Years of Solitude - Gabriel Garcia Marquez
Sula - Toni Morrison
the books they already did*
Mario Papetti hit "read more"... it's the list for this season. It is pretty clear.
... Not sure how can't read and are watching a video about literature
+Raymond Smith sorry, youtube is acting wierd, read more didn't even appear until now
This just makes me wonder if John Green has ever taken care of large groups of children for a prolonged period of time.
Thanks, I’m reading Lord of the Flies in my honors English class and I needed some background on it!
And for God's sake, do not say that you prefer Atlas Shrugged over The Lord of the Flies.
Martin Vargic
Thank goodness. Besides ultra-capitalist propaganda, I find it a pretty boring reading, and inferior in quality compared to The Lord of the Flies.
+Martin Vargic Quasi-marxist? He's a mainstream leftist to moderate leftist
+pippypenguin so quazi, not full, in other words? lol
He's still a liberal, not socialist.
He hates both equally.
Lord of the flies it's society, even you actually are the voice of reason... The larger dumber and(usually) stronger and more violent side will still crush you like a bug. So you'd better be able to let your murderous side out when they do.
Claudia Tejero-Rios add me to the list. Only book I read cover to cover.
John's hair in this video looks like it's been stranded on an island for an unspecified amount of time
I really liked how genuine the book was. The characters came to life from the pages and their island was their own to own and abuse as they pleased. The older boys are around 10 or so and the younger ones are around 6. It felt like because William Golding was so close to children of this age it was easier to write about their behaviour.
Lord of the flies was absolutely my favorite book ever
The Afghanistan war is still raging ...17 years, 5 months, 2 weeks, 2 days!! We are insane!
John, I very much enjoy your Crash Course literature videos, and I would love to see you dissect a Hemingway novel, preferably the Sun Also Rises or A Farewell to Arms. Thanks
My high school English teacher spun it as a psychological allegory, with Ralph acting as Freud's Ego, Piggy the Superego, and Jack as the Id.
I wouldn't say it is entirely false; but it isn't entirely true either. I don't believe all people are good, but I certainly don't believe all people are inherently evil.
Wasn't a Simpson's episode loosely based on this book?
yup
Christian Müller Ahh so my memory does serve me right.
Yeah and as I recall, they pointed out that it made no god-damn sense as well.
Yeah it's the episode Kamp Krusty which is the 4th season premiere
I saw a film version of this years ago. Maybe it's somewhere online now?
The one bit I remember is the ending where the boys being chased and literally running for his life trips and falls ... only to finding himself clasping the feet of the naval officer. Funny how some images stick in your mind for decades.
BTW - I think the translation for 'Beelzebub' is 'Lord of the Flies'
It was! Which also translates to "Satan" or "devil". I'm surprised he didn't cover that topic. It adds much for meaning and understanding to the book
I think the Lord of the Flies makes more sense as a symbol for fear, rather than evil.
There are no women in it because it's a British public (private) school in the UK in the 1950s. Do your research, John. And what exactly is wrong about the Hobbesian vision? Human beings do have a dark part of the human soul that makes them enjoy conflict on some level. You also have a very simplistic reading of it.
Could you please do a course in history of literature (explaining literary periods)?
Oh my god we have to read this book so I'm so glad there's a crash course for this!