How the 1911 Got Its Safeties - and Why Its Ancestors Had None
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2024
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Some people put a lot of weight on the fact that the 1911 has a grip safety and a thumb safety...but I don't think many folk understand how it ended up that way. John Browning's first self-loading pistols had very different safeties...and often, no safety at all. So today, let's look at the guns that led up to the 1911 - the 1900, 1902, 1903 (Hammer and Hammerless) and 1905, as well as the US military trials pistols from 1907, 1909, and 1910, and see what they can tell us about the standards and practices of the time.
(Thanks to Tam for the inspiration to film this!)
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I have heard the history of the 1911, but don't think I have heard the "why" of the safety. Now I wonder what other "whys" I do not know.
Whatever the question, the answer is always "because it's hard to shoot and ride a horse at the same time".
The story behind the integrated bottle opener in the Galil is funny
I'm pretty sure there was a book there with a lot of "whys" we don't know in it. :)
312,493
For myself. I wouldn't want to be shot in my leg, and I definitely wouldn't want to possibly wing my horse in its side. If your cavalry, your job is to be on a horse. I maybe a little too overly cautious, but if anything can happen, it will happen. Needless to say, men carrying a SAA shouldn't carry that pistol, cocked and locked. Even with all the safety's that may be built in place, there are too many variables. What if your half cock goes off on a weak primered round? What if? Carrying a gun can always fail you, I guess I don't like the fact that anything and everything can potentially happen.
I never realized that there were so many other models prior to the 1911. I may have heard about the 1905, but people generaly don't remember the older variations. An imformative video in another sense.
Find Ian's older video on 1911 development. It's great.
I highl suggest to watch Ian's "Development of the Model 1911 Pistol" linked at the end of this video. It will guide you through all the iterations and what they meant.
@@Strawberry92fs You would have a point if they were all prototypes but many of the guns leading up to the 1911 and featured in that video were successful commercial guns and some even saw military use in other countries.
As well as other contractors trying to get the contract
Ian has a very comprehensive video on the lineage of the 1911.
bedtime stories with ian: how the 1911 got its safety
I've always found it humorous when someone refers to carrying a 1911 cocked and locked as "Like JMB intended it", considering that the safety was something only added after the Ordinance Board requested it.
I have a replica copy of the Sears - Roebuck catalog which lists the cartridge for the 1905 Colt as the ".45 rimless-smokeless".
Some police officers were so dead set against the grip safety that they would wrap the grip with friction tape to defeat it. I read that on at least one occasion one of these modified guns was hung on a wall peg (with the other safety off, apparently) and the pistol discharged pinwheel fashion, emptying the magazine.
russian roulette for the whole family.
I can see that happening if the recoil was strong enough to bounce the pistol off the inside of the trigger guard, back into the trigger, and it somehow didn't fall off the edge of the pin.
Good thing the ATF didn't exist back then, otherwise they would have classified the peg as a bump fire device.
That can happen? In the Canadian army I heard stories about the MM11 possibly popping off one perhaps two if it was dropped even if hooked into the bolt notch, (all anecdotal though and soldiers are well documented liars and story tellers). I’m not disparaging soldiers but when they have too much free time dumb ensues quite often.
@@john-paulsilke893 The gun in question was in civilian (police) use and was hung on a peg outside the briefing room where all officers' guns were stored. I'm sorry that I can't find any mention of the article but it was 40 years ago or thereabouts. With the gun supported on a wall peg through the trigger guard it seems possible.
I was just at my Dad’s buddy’s house who owns a custom rifle shop (Cantrell Outdoors) and he just bought a lot of 30 guns off this lady whose husband just passed away, and one of those guns was a Colt 1900 with the sight safety system. He said they are super rare as only a few hundred were ever made. AMAZING piece of history I just got to hold...
Thanks Ian. I carried an M1911a1 as a gate guard and patrol truck driver in 1971 and qualified with it - so it's interesting to hear how that weapon evolved.
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I think one thing that should be considered, there are hundreds of thousands of men who have served in the military back when the M1911 was the issue handgun. The came from all over the nation, and in some cases the world. Many had never seen a firearm before, and were terrified of them, this especially during the draft era. So with this in mind, the added safety makes a lot of sense. In my 8 years in the US Army, I have seen soldiers, in the field, play with the pistols, much as we did when we played cops and robbers. I saw them practice their fast draw playing cowboy with loaded '45's, and as a Sergeant had to do incident reports when some idiot blew a hole in the barracks wall or their wall locker. Safety's are indeed a necessary and very good thing. Especially with the single action semi-auto where the trigger pull is, what we like to call, smooth and short.
And all those same reasons apply to a civilian getting their first defensive pistol.
5:04
You may have omitted it for brevity or been unaware, but the original grip safeties retrofitted to the trial 1905s actually didn't have a tang long enough to decock the pistol one-handed. They were extended during the trials after a request by the ordnance board to give the pistols that ability.
Apparently the 1903 Hammerless was Al Capone's carry gun. Cool stuff.
Very popular gun with the 30's gangster crowd, as were the 25ACP Baby Browning and Colt Vest Pockets.
I think I remember watching a documentary saying Capone's accountant kept a Vest Pocket in his vest pocket.
Another one which doesn't typically come to mind would be the 1907 Savage 32ACP.
I thought it was very cool that was the gun Jude Law's character wielded in Road to Perdition.
Some things just work, and the 1911 is one of them, including the thumb safety. Disengaging it is intuitive and easy, similar to placing an AR in Fire mode.
Something to keep in mind here: The 1911 grip safety works by blocking rearward movement of the trigger bow. It only provides protection against the inertia of the trigger causing it to move rearward if dropped, or against inadvertently pulling the trigger without a firing grip on the gun. A sharp blow to the hammer can still fire the gun by causing the hammer to slip or break off of the sear. Only the half-cock notch, or the Series 80 firing pin block safety, can prevent the gun from firing in that case. The half cock notch does so by attempting to catch the falling hammer on the sear before it strikes the firing pin. The Series 80 firing pin block actually prevents forward movement of the firing pin without the trigger moving sufficiently rearward. This will prevent the gun from firing, even if the firing pin is struck.
The Series 80 safety also addresses the other possible way the gun could fire when dropped--the firing pin moving forward under inertia. Presumably this was considered less likely at the time. And, that would only occur if the gun hit the ground muzzle down. Whereas the trigger moving rearward would occur if the gun hits the ground muzzle up, a potentially more dangerous condition.
Modern 1911s, especially those without the Series 80 safety, use lightweight triggers and firing pins for this reason, They don't have enough inertia to move forward or rearward when dropped.
Then there's also the Schwartz safety. This is the most distinct feature of Kimber "II" series pistols. In the series 80 the firing pin block is activated by the trigger, this makes for a poor trigger but a safer gun. The Schwartz safety changes the firing pin block activation to the grip safety. This provides both the better trigger of a series 70 but the safety of a series 80.
Ian always amazes me with the facts and Stories He comes up with!
Most informative gun channel out there. I cant wait to see the ian videos when hes gray and old and has even more wealth of knowledge.
with a lustrous silver mane
There is only one thing I've never been able to understand about the 1911 grip safety, how anyone can hold the pistol in a firing grip and NOT disengage the grip safety. I've heard so many people claim that disengaging that grip safety is a problem for them, and many of the 'modern' fancied up guns have big old humps and bumps on the grip safety to 'help' disengage it, but I've played around with a few 1911's, including my own beloved Springfield G.I. remake 1911A1, a Ruger 10mm SR1911, and dad's Colt Gold Cup from the 80's, and I've never been able to hold the gun in anything resembling a firing grip without tripping the grip safety. It's a complete mystery to me, unless some people have really weirdly shaped hands.
Exactly. Given the significant recoil, you want to grasp the pistol firmly before firing.
if you choke up real high as is common with modern tactical shooters the web of your hand can lift back up on the beaver tail. people that shoot in such a way tend to run a modified grip safety that actuates with less travel.
Yes that seems weird to me as well. Especially on modern 1911s where the grip safety protrudes more of the back of the grip. But even with a standard "GI" 1911, I don't see how you would hold the gun without depressing the grip safety. Unless you barely hold it, which is not great if you actually want to fire the gun.
The grip safety is meant to reduce likelihood of accidental/negligent discharge when 1911 is not being held in the hand and ready to shoot. (eg when holstered, dropped, sitting on a bench).
The grip safety should definitely disengage when the gun is held in anything resembling a firing grip.
That is absolutely part of the function of the safety ideology itself, not a shortcoming of the design.
@@butre. The trouble with that theory is that I also use a very high grip and have never had such an issue unless I was deliberately trying to make it happen, even with the extended beaver-tail grip safeties. I can't help but wonder if it's something that pretty much doesn't happen, but people are worried that it can. Throw in some 'they said, he said' type internet/word of mouth stories and you get the seeds of yet another urban legend.
Your videos are always educational I always seem to learn something from your videos and I enjoy your critiques on Publications. Thank you for your work
Thanks Ian, for making this video; it cleared up a fair amount of issues we were having with a 1918 frame with a 1963 slide and Match Grade Barrel. Your videos have made us safer handlers and more appreciative curators of the items we own.
Well I'll be damned - I'm 68 and learned something.
Never knew the hammer would operate the grip safety!
I'm 35 here and a big fan of Browning arms. The 1911 is the pistol I'm most familiar with concerning its parts and how they interact and work.
I never knew the overtravel on the hammer was for decocking one handed.
Got my first High Power coming this week, an Israeli MKIII. Can't wait to get as intimate with it as I am with a 1911!
If you ask most people what their favorite group of firearms are they might say WWII, Western, Russian, I.E.
For me it would be the arms of John Browning. My first hunting rifle was a Winchester 1894AE 30-30 I got before I even knew who John Browning was. ( I stupidly traded it away but still have my Dad's 94 30-30 which I will never part with. One thing I don't like to think about is it was made in 65, almost had a pre 64 Winchester in the family!)
Another one I got a couple years ago that I love is a 1947 Remington 81 in 35Rem, talk about a thumper!
I can't imagine what that rifle would feel like in 300 Savage.
I think the next Browning I'm hankering for is an 1895 Winchester. One of those Miroku made ones, but I don't know which caliber to get. 30-06 or 405Win? One thing for sure is the tang safety would have to go. Mayber someone like Doug Turnbull could weld up the tang. Half cock on a lever action is more than enough safety to me, maybe it's because that is what I grew up with.
I learn something new every day on this show.
Fantastic and informative video as always.
Excellent and very interesting video! As usual. Many thanks Ian.
Ian, one thing I really appreciate about. You have made us better humans because we are informed about areas out of our areas of expertise. And, my friend. I love history and the human tragedy as well. Better informed than not. Stefan
Thank you for resolving the conflict I've experienced trying to resolve the often asserted statement that John Moses Browning designed the 1911 to be carried cocked and locked (in the modern sense that we think of it now and did so with no primary or secondary source cited) with the assertion that no military had ever adopted the practice of carrying a single action semi-automatic with a round in the chamber.
Excellent vid Ian! 👍
It's amazing the difference between what everybody "knows" and what the actual facts are. I had never heard the cavalry nexus before. Then again, I never studied it as much as I should have.
Excellent video that answered a question I have pondered off and on.
Interesting and informative, as always. Many thanks.
Thanks for another terrific history vid! It's one of the reasons I enjoy this channel. 😎
Loving these morning videos!
Sir the 1911 A1 is my favorite pistol and I most absolutely enjoyed this video especially just as I enjoy all your videos top quality work👍👍
As always, very informative. Thank you!
Thank you Ian, very cool!
Thanks Ian, been a question of mine for some time and hey, Presto! All explained
MIND BLOWN! +25 years with a 1911 and only now did I realized you can decock with one hand. You need to be careful to not let the hammer slip and strike the firing pin, but it's absolutely doable. I feel soooo stupid. Thanks Ian!
I own (and love) a Combat Commander in .45 ACP, but never had any idea of the history of it and its big brother. Great video!
this was quite informative and interesting I always wondered why there are two safeties on the 1911
Thanks, Ian! These series of (relatively) short history-oriented videos are like a meditation practice to me - soothing my soul
You know what ? I ALWAYS enjoy the video ! Thank you for making them. Endless enjoyment and learning. Very cool.
I really love any of any of the videos about early semiautomatic pistols, it still amazes me just how much (and different) engineering went into making these early guns. I also love the crazy designs, especially some of the no name Chinese guns, that you find. I am always hopeful that you will find some more off the wall guns to show us.
I really enjoy your history videos, thanks!
Impressive logical and concise communication style. Good job! Thanks!
I'm in love with the new content of the channel
Awesome video!
One more video about 1911 history. Thats just freaking great! Thanks!
A reading by Gun Jesus from the holy book of Samuel Colt.
I think the Book of Armaments is what you mean, just to bring another legendary thing into this.
@@somercet1 That works too! Even better, in fact!
I think it's odd how those extra safety features carried over to civilian versions of the pistol, and are still included. I guess traditions are as hard to break as bad habits.
Or maybe they just use old tooling, or make new tools based on the old one instead of modifying them
There really is no reason to remove them on the 1911 as they are well placed and for the majority of users provide no issues. There is also the fact of liability against the manufacturer if they removed certain safety features and a user had a negligent discharge, as we all know in our litigious society it very likely wouldn't matter if the end user was the one being careless. There are also a myriad of modern handgun designs to choose from if one doesn't like those features.
It's only odd if you think that improvements made at the request of the biggest and most experienced user are bad...
The stipulations made by the military are not always improvements. Look at the Sig P320. The civilian version didn't have or need a manual safety, but the military asked for one anyway. That had nothing to do with improving the pistol, and everything to do with military doctrine.
@@michaelblacktree Well, the military usually requests its specifications based on the knowledge, that most new soldiers are negligent idiots with no real gun handling or training of any sort. AKA they want their guns and safeties to be completely dumb-proof.
And if these designs carry on to the civilian markets, where most users are also negligent idiots - than its definitely an improvement of the pistol...
If ever there was a video of yours that I needed to "multiple like" - this is it. Thank you, Ian!!
I knew they were military requirements, but I didn't know why they were requirements. Thanks!
As always good info
Good stuff, especially enjoyed this video.
Thank you , Ian .
This is why I keep coming back to Ian chanel. Strange toys and stories...
Just yesterday I was looking at my copy of the US Army Ordnance 1911 manual from 1912. Noticed that normal carry was empty and hammer-down. Cocked-and-locked and the butt of the pistol facing out of holster was for emergencies only.
One reason I like my 1911, is the thumb operated hammer/slide lock. I can have a round chambered, hammer cocked and the hammer/slide safety lock in place. If I ever need to draw my handgun from the shoulder holster I can drop the hammer/slide lock with my thumb while pulling my handgun out of the holster and it's ready to get to work.
The 1911 was specifically designed so that you could load the chamber without using both hands. There is enough distance in the dust cover to merely put the plunger against feet saddle horn, and cock the firearm. It was a design function of the firearm because it was a Cavalry pistol. I don't know how these guys couldn't figure that out considering that was one of the design parameters that Mr Browning had enough foresight to put on the firearm. One of the reasons why I never carry a 1911 with a full-length guide rod. It is an unnecessary piece of weight that detract from the ability of the firearm the way it's designed.
An interesting thing about the 1902 introduction, was Browning was actually at a meeting with a number of military brass to introduce the officer's pistol. It is said that a lieutenant walked up to him and ask him why there was no safety on this newfangled semi-automatic like some other semi autos had. His response was that he was asked to design an officer's pistol. When the lieutenant asked him what did that have to do with the question, mr. Browning told him that an officer is supposed to know what end of the gun the bullet comes out of.
I don't know how true that story is, I got it from a pretty reliable source, but that sounds like mr. Browning all day long. He may have been a high priest, but he was funny as hell at times.
That was pretty cool. It's fascinating how things we take for granted as a common feature had its origins in addressing a very specific need.
was just about to search for a video on the M1902/3 :)
That ‘03 Colt is a handsome bugger. A retro series in 9mm would be super cool
so interesting.i have always been very curious about the 1911 safeties.
Great video! This answered a lot of questions I had about the 1911 design.
One more question: With the advent of the Series 80 and Schwartz-style firing pin safeties, would the 1911 be safe enough to carry and use without the thumb safety (like a Springfield XD)?
Great video. I have told many people that you can carry a holstered 1911 safely without the thumb safety engaged because that is how it was designed. The thumb safety was an afterthought.
I just realized I never subscribed to Ian's channel. His videos are always in my 'suggested' list so I didn't notice!
Gr8 oration on Browning Autos, U are a good teacher! Dave Rom Kansas
That puts some context to my favorite pistol that as a former cav man can appreciate.
Gun Jesus and the sermon of Saint John Moses Browning's offerings. Excellent.
What did you do this morning? Watched a great video on all the safeties of the 1911's.
Very interesting. Would be nice to hear your input about how the safeties affect trigger pull
They do not, at all, unless the fitment of the grip safety is very, very tight, which might even cause trigger return issues. The grip safety blocks the rearward travel of the trigger bow, until the grip safety is fully depressed, in which case it is entirely clear of the trigger bow. The thumb safety, similarly, blocks the rearward pivoting of the lower half of the sear, until disengaged. I think the shape of the two surfaces would prevent friction entirely in these parts in a firearm that functions at all. Even friction from the disconnector is eliminated entirely from the fire control group except for when the action is cycling and the trigger is resetting, as the disconnector and sear pivot together throughout the rearward travel of the trigger.
How much of a genius Browning was seriously cannot be overstated.
I knew there was a lineage. Thanks for a very coherent explanation.
My father and grandfather had significantly different attitudes towards safeties than today. Grandpa was like "no guns are safe, no matter the mechanics". My father more or less echoed that. He was convinced that safeties slowed down response to the malefactors. (In his words drug crazed dope fiends)
There is truth to that which is why so many modern guns have no manual safety but as Ian pointed out, the 1911 was designed basically for 19th century cavalry use in mind and it makes a whole lot of sense in that context.
What were his thoughts on grip safeties and/or the trigger safeties that we see on some pistols? Also, did he follow the four rules of gun safety?
I am asking because in my mind, those safeties are automatically engaged and thus do not slow down response time (if they do, then I would argue the difference to be insignificant).
Ralph Reagan The idea that safeties slow you down is nonsensical when most rifles all have safeties yet they’re not a hinderance.
@@gameragodzilla
I would disagree, but also add that the degree to which a safety slows down you down is insignificant and even less so with a rifle than a handgun, since when you are carrying a rifle you are expect a threat (or your are just more alert) and thus you are more likely to disengage the safety, when carrying a handgun (especially concealed) that same level of awareness is less likely to be present.
Jonas Strzyz Why? When you’re carrying any gun, you should be alert for any potential dangers. Lack of alertness will mean you’re too slow to deploy your weapon whether you had a manual safety or not. That is not an excuse.
As always yet another fabulous bit of firearms history. Is there any particular reason why grip safety's never migrated into select fire rifles (particularly in the military)? Is it a technical reason or is it more about shooter preferences (real or perceived)?
I recall the historical development of the 1911 and now when I wanted to again review the history....couldn't easily find it except here. Fine job. Question...when the 1911 thumb safety *IS* engaged....I think it might be good to complete this story to verify just what is going on inside the gun. Why?...because as we review different gun design manual safeties.....we might hear push back from some corners... "Well, it only blocks the movement of the trigger".....or, "It definitely does block the sear"....or it blocks the "sear and hammer". This then goes further to suggest how safe a particular gun's design is, if (say) a certain internal part fails or breaks....."is it still safe?", etc, etc. As you answer this....just for the sake of comparison, look at the Star PD 45 ACP. Has no grip safety but as you engage the thumb safety you can "See" the cocked hammer rock back slightly...indicating that activating the safety has lifted the hammer off the sear, while still blocking the firing control. Would love your comments on any of this.
Thanks for the knowledge about How the 1911 got it's Safeties , Ian !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I heard a 1911 gets its safety every time a bell rings.
Awesome video, question? Was the Colt models the first pistol design to introduce the slide release mechanism? If not what was the first pistol to feature this?
Yes, I would like to know more
great video :)
Thank you for everything, Ian. I don't really know why are there so many haters talking shit about your videos. You are just great. Many extra thanks from Argentina!!!
Very interesting, thank you
I remember reading in one of the gun magazines, in the 1970s, that there was a 3/4 scale prototype of the 1911. Somewhere. I don't recall if there were any other details than that and I *may* have read that in an article that was about trying to make the Hi-Power in a bigger caliber? Or, possibly, in an article about the history of the 1911?
Anyone know or recall that article? And, is there a 3/4 scale version of the 1911?
As usual another excellent video, thank you Ian!
The Baby Rock is a .380 1911 in about 85% scale, but that didn't come out in the 1970s. I wonder if they were confused by a 1903 or something? I know I was the first time I saw one.
The most telling point in all this..... we were still riding horses in battle 109 yrs ago
History. Good stuff.
Thanks For Sharing, The 1911 Is My Only Carry An I Always Being A Big Fan Of It👍
Unrelated , but do you think the channel could do a segment on the carry arms of the guards at the tomb of the unknown soldier, SIG made, the grips are made from the deck of the USS Olympia and the rear sight inserts are made from the marble of the actual tomb, pretty fascinating ..
so cool , i always wanted a gun like dad's 45 with few safety 's on it , i was told my dad lied 2 me , seeing ur video history on the 1911 , i can tell them they don't know jack about 1911 history, thanks ill point them to ur video on this history..
Many old farts or gun fudds are recirculating bullshit from an era before the internet when it was easier to spread bullshit without verifying. So don’t be so hard on them loll. Ian literally features the book that clarifies everything including John browning, the actual inventors way of carrying his own personal copy of the early prototype 1911 which was his personal gun that did not have a manual safety just the grip safety he carried it cocked with a loaded chamber. Other handguns of the era without a manual safety, just a grip safety is the Frommer stop 1912 Hungarian combat pistol that’s also quite popular and famous
Like many of the other commenters I hadn't heard of the Cavalry connection, and thinking about a .45 pistol coming unholstered and jouncing around on the end of a shoulder lanyard is indeed a little unnerving.
Again, thank you.
Fascinating....I always wondered about that..... being a 1911 fan.....
Bought a new colt standard 1911 45 in 1978 it must be rare in fact at the gun range it fired 2 rounds in one trigger pull
at the end of the second round the gun was straight up wow the gun smith found a fault in the shear and fix it.
wonder if anyone else experienced the same problem? enjoyed the info Ian take care
and a few years later, when Browning designed the Woodsman, it only had a thumb safety that locked the slide and blocked the trigger. interesting stuff. thanks.
One of the reasons they also wanted the thumb safety was to lock the slide in place. A common complaint from cavalry troops was the slide sometimes getting pushed out of battery as they tried to holster it one handed.
As a 1911 aficionado, this video was on point in the historical evolution of the 1911 safeties. Thanks.
Xochiltepetzala Ilhuicamina you'd probably enjoy his longer video that goes more in depth with the development of them, pretty sure he discussed all their safeties or lack thereof as well in that video.
“And toDaY” got me in bits
0:33 Colt 1900 was the first Colt semi-automatic pistol but I'm pretty sure the FN 1900 was Browning's first.
Dayumnn those are some very sexy pistols! Enormously interesting info!
Some hammer bite looking pistols right there.
I was waiting for the date of the modern extended beavertails.
This video needed to be made.
Haven’t seen many of those customized pistols with all the tacticool bells and whistles built from a pre-1911 Colt.
Very interested and informative video. 👉👍🖖
There is a third safety on the 1911 which I is called the disconnector safety (see www.cylinder-slide.com/1911safetyck.shtml) that is in addition to the manual and grip safeties that you covered. On the 1911, if you push the muzzle into the dirt (or your palm), it will retract the barrel and the slide about 1/4 inch toward the hammer and the gun will not fire. It would be interesting to find out when the disconnector safety was added to the Colt line of semi-automatic pistols. Could you have a follow-up video that discusses the history of the disconnector safety or amend this video to include it?
I really want a model 1900 now. I have no clue how hard it would be to find one.