T.K. Coleman here. I just wanted to pop in and give a big shout out to Destiny for a fun and stimulating conversation. I know that debates make a lot of people feel tense and that it often looks like we’re fighting when we do this sort of thing, but this was a truly fun conversation for all of us. And we had a lot of laughs and insightful banter in-between the recordings. I appreciate Destiny coming into our space and being willing to not only argue, but also being willing to share his perspectives on minimalism, consumerism, and relationships. I would not only be happy to have him on the show again, but this is a guy I could enjoy arguing with and conversing with even if…there are no cameras and microphones to capture the conversation. A very different type of show for us, but man…big shout out to Destiny and our viewers/listeners for coming along for the ride and being open to the adventure. Much love!
you guys did really well conducting this convo. judging from what destiny said on stream about this podcast, it's clear that he shares the same feelings, as well.
I wasn't familiar with you before but was very impressed with how clearly and quickly you were able to express your counters to Destiny off the cuff like that. Especially with regards to the taxation/test discussion.
@@Now-gn1vk That he really enjoyed the conversation. He was asked what was his favorite podcast to appear on when he did his mass pod appearances, and this was the one he mentioned was really interesting.
@@Now-gn1vk He basically said that the questions, answers and rebuttals all felt meaningful and moved the conversation forward. The exact opposite of some podcasts where people are talking for hours without saying anything relevant or interesting.
It was genuinely exciting to realize an hour had come and gone like that. Most times watching Destiny debate with someone feels like you've listened to people drone on and on, only to realize it's barely been a half hour.
With all the awful people Destiny has been talking to lately. This was a breath of fresh air. I get Destiny's whole brand is to try and make some sense out of the insane but I really miss his old teaching concepts videos
Oh my god, Destiny hasn't been on a podcast where he gets asked meaningful and unique questions since probably the Lex Fridman/Iced Coffee Hour podcasts. This is fantastic!
Can I just say how refreshing (33:00) it is to actually hear these guys properly engage with hypotheticals? No claiming "debate bro" tactics. No claiming that hypotheticals are pointless to answer. Just simple, qualifying questions to really understand the question, and answer with no hesitation. Great stuff.
@darkmoon2744 Then you don't know how to use hypotheticals properly. Hypotheticals are a great way to show to examine ones beliefs and logic on a subject without being judgemental and/or getting their feelings out of the equation. They are also good at examining what is actually important.
This is one of those times where a hypothetical is not necessary. I know the podcast is clipped but they should have spoken about where the money from taxes specifically goes to. There are a lot of public services that are difficult to privatise. The paved streets, public schools, healthcare (depending where you live), military, social services for the poor. Some of these were touched on but very briefly, but talking about privatisation vs nationalisation regarding taxes is far more interesting and doesn't require a random hypothetical scenario. How does one reconcile that tax is theft when there are are a need for public services? And do government(s) provide enough public services compared to how much they tax (Destiny brought up California with their high tax bracets). I think before getting into hypotheticals, the answers should be grounded into reality and then moulded into hypotheticals but that's just my thought.
@darkmoon2744 I would say that your perspective on the use of hypotheticals are a bit skewed then. Sure, people use them in the way you described. But a Hypothetical is one of many ways to help better understand a person's perspective. Once you have that understanding, it becomes easier to engage with their points. All depends on how the conversation is going.
@@ra1youu But the topic isn't just about taxation of theft. It's relevant to figure out what the person considers to be theft because not everyone who says taxation is theft has the same perspective. It's important to find out what makes the person think it's theft in the first place.
I'm impressed on how quickly Destiny's contender was able to let go of surface disagreements with Destiny's arguments and dig deeper. When I hear about an hour long show that is going to cover multiple HUGE issues I just roll my eyes because it's going to be the same surface level discussion. This was good
It's like a ptsd response from Destiny's many debates xD. No topic ever really gets unfolded, we just get a bunch of technicalities, unanswered questions, shift in topics and shouting matches xD. I also really enjoy just getting general insights into why Destiny thinks the way he does, especially because he's so seemingly different from myself, yet similar in some aspects.
Hey I’m here as a fan of Destiny but I really loved what y’all talked about. Destiny has gone on so many different podcast and this is the first one I plan on watching In the future.
@@TubeWuselI'm no where near as clean or tidy as Destiny, but too much stuff hurts my ADHD brain for sure. I feel like it's crowding around me. I love going around with a bin bag. Unfortunately my wife and kids do not.
Destiny bought me here because I have such respect for his thought process and now I've found another place to get thoughtful conversation. Thank you for such a stimulating conversation.
@@firepitch5113 i think a debate is when people challenge each others opinions and try to change their minds. not just talk about their beliefs. but again i said "it was more like" not Definity like
I really love the thing where you guys are standing there listening to the phone, it took me a moment to realize you guys were not actually listening on that phone since its an audio recording... and then a little bit later I realized you probably aren't even listening to the audio recording its likely just some b roll edited with the audio recording over it. Then it became amazingly hilarious how intently you guys looked like you were listening. I hope that stays in the show forever. Also great convo guys... 2 years ago I had very little hope our country was ever going to start moving in the right direction again, and recently ive been seeing all these podcasts and youtube channels that are becoming popular because they just want to have civil conversations and explore topics respectfully, and now my hope is back, thanks!
Would love it if Destiny had TK on his stream sometime so they can have a more in depth conversation about some of these topics, super unfortunate they could only touch on these subjects very briefly, although ironically they were some of the most engaging discussions on these subjects I've seen in a long time despite the time constraint. I understand why Destiny had such positive views about his appearance on this podcast, almost nothing said was filler or unoriginal, everything seemed well thought out and well understood by all parties. Very good discussion.
TK is so inspiring! I love his responses. Most of his first sentences I completely disagree with and then he explains it soooo well it really makes sense. I love his outlook on life.
Wow, initially only intended to watch the first 5 minutes. Ended up watching the whole hour 😅 Wonderful convo. Although I come from Destiny’s fanbase I want to acknowledge and appreciate TK’s perspective on the topics, clearly a learned man and he spoke eloquently. You guys knocked it out of the park, kudos!
I've been been married to my husband for 27 years. He is an agnostic, Democrat, and lives completely in the moment with no looking back at past or planning for the future. I, however am a Christian, Republican, who has spreadsheets on top of spreadsheets plotting retirement and am constantly reflecting on the past and looking toward the future, goal setting, etc., sometimes forgetting to enjoy the now. I think we epitomize loving someone despite differences. Although it is very difficult at times. We tend to avoid some topics....
Felt nice to see two people have a conversation and a back and forth debate without running down dialogue trees and not engaging in what each other was saying.
Easily the best debate I’ve ever seen. I say that because both sides were able to present their points of view clearly in a way that made it easy to see why they think how they do. It’s a lot better than just seeing one guy destroy another, or an incoherent dialogue that conveys nothing.
Im only 15mins in and it feels like an hour has gone past, but in a good way. You guys have figured out how to say so much in so little time, something people tend to have the other way around.
Taxation isn't theft because you have in fact given consent, implicitly. If you don't want to pay taxes, you are free to leave the country. It's part of the societal contract. Saying it's theft is like saying having to pay for goods is theft.
Wouldn't that mean any situation you can simply "leave" but don't is one you implicitly consent to? Meaning every slave who didn't/doesn't run away day 1 is implicitly consenting to being enslaved? Reason I bring that up is most people can't just "leave the country" on a whim. Even though the "opportunity" is there.
@@justifano7046 If you can leave freely then yes that's consent. If there's however pressure on you in any ways to not leave then no consent. This get's particularly fun in cases of alleged sexual assault where the victim didn't vehemently object. The issue with leaving the country is mostly that you can only leave to another country, where you still need to undergo a process of vetting usually. Interestingly there are ~14 countries without taxes in the world. so there would be options. As for slavery, most american slaves where certainly held against their will, allthough some of the better of ones essentially consented. Historically slavery and indentured servitude where often voluntary as well. It's important to note however that you can't consent to something that is illegal.
@@justifano7046 Its like if you were a 40 year old living at your parents and you refuse to participate in household income. That what I hear when I hear taxation is theft.
I like how Destiny pulled apart the idea of loving someone despite their differences. I can genuinely say that I have those extreme edge cases of opinion among my core friend group although there is of course a common thread that binds us. I certainly have other friends I think would find some of my views repulsive and some of my other friends completely objectionable. We’ve talked about this with each other, how we seem to have this ability. I’ve always kind of wished I had a good way to articulate that position to someone who might claim that they can love people despite their differences when I felt intuitively that their claim to that quality was brittle. Destiny has put it perfectly. I might give that a go someday if the opportunity presents itself.
Taxation as theft: 1. If you live in a society and use the roads and libraries and fire department and police, but you do not pay taxes, then isn't it you who is the thief? 2. With thievery you have no choice but to have your property stolen. With taxation you are free to leave the country and go somewhere more amenable to your philosophy. If you can leave and you don't, then you have given tacit approval for the taxation. And therefore it is not theft.
@TheMinimalists I was curious when Joshua said he has an open marriage in episode 409, in a minimalist perspective, wouldn’t it be easier to have one significant other and just minimize your efforts and perfect that relationship with your spouse? Thanks for considering the Q.
@@biochemica2 I guess my understanding of minimalism is also reducing choices while working with one specific situation. So in the case of an open marriage, wouldn’t it be easier to divorce/ stay as friends and move on? No judgment here but I’m also trying to approach this from my developing understanding of minimalism.
I just got rear-ended by an idiot driver in Richmond VA. They drove off and my car is damaged. There is nothing I can do about it, but hanging out in a parking lot over night and listening to destiny do his thing definitely helps.
I didn't expect this TK guy to be a voluntaryist/ancap. Nice to see someone actually being able to defend the taxation is theft stance against Destiny. Destiny's defense is so bad imo... did he forget that value is subjective?
Aren’t taxes like rent? Is rent theft? Loved this debate. While I love TK, my past experiences and thoughts aligned more with Destiny’s. Not that that means anything. I was just surprised. Great debate!
I think where many people have a problem is the poor stewardship the government has shown with the taxes they do collect. People feel they’re not getting their money’s worth or that the government is making very poor financial decisions. People feel that their money is being wasted and/or misspent. In your analogy of rent, it would be like the landlord letting the building rot and never fixing the appliances.
Yea, that's my question too. I feel like Taxation is more of a club membership you pay in order to be part of a larger society. If you don't want to pay taxes, you could theoretically move up into the mountains and off the grid entirely, but that also means you do not get the benefits of hospitals, roads, schools etc etc.
The difference between the child doing chores at home and the housekeeper doing the same, the child has a stake in the house, the housekeeper doesn’t. It’s a social contract, same as how an adult needs to conduct themselves in a certain way in public. The house is the child’s “public”.
Great podcast! Thanks for having Destiny on! Some feedback as a first time viewer: as a headphone user the woman laughing was very loud and distracting, and honestly added as much as a laugh track (can’t stand those). I suggest either muting when you’re laughing or turning down her volume. Thanks!
Roads to drive to work: paid by taxes Cops to ensure safe roads: paid by taxes Firefighters/emergency to ensure safety of the community: paid for by taxes Education that helps me write, read, etc: paid by taxes. We do not live on private islands. We are not individuals living on our own in the woods.
35:02 right, but we’re talking about an action that’s literally needed in order to keep society functioning. The reason why you’re able to make any money at all is because other people that came before you paid into the system which then laid the groundwork for you to be able to work.
Love T.K. Coleman. Could be our Chicago upbringing, but he says everything I agree with. Never heard of Destiny, but I am now a fan. This was a great podcast episode. Thank you! Glad to be a Patreon.
When we talk about taxation being theft or our involvement in society, it's important to remember that none of use agreed to be in this society. We were born here against our will and societal rules and regulations are forced on us under threat of violence from the state. That is not freedom.
18:34 Such a great point. Its like being the best Halo player between your 10 friends but online play opens up and u suck at it 90% the time. Its good if u dont give up when u feel foolish in a conversations. Its a learning experience. DONT MAKE YOUR FIRST DEBATE ON A LARGE LIVE STREAM plzzzzz
This is the first podcast that has made me consider actually subscribing on patreon (although I still won’t because I’m broke). As a long time Destiny viewer, there have been very very few conversations he’s had that are anywhere near this quality. I can’t say enough good things about this episode, keep up the good work
I do hoarding clean ups for work and man it’s really sad and it’s a mental sickness that can vary from comical to this person needs a huge wake up call
On the tax topic destiny should've brought up that wealth/value isn't in actuality created independently of the tax funded state(in some theoretical libertarian utopia you might say it 'could be' but it never has happened). Taxes go to police and the military which maintain order so rather than being in a hobbesian state of nature of all against all, value and wealth can be created, taxes go to roads and infrastructure that facilitate industry and travel to be able to build get wealth and value, taxes pay for regulatory bodies that maintain minimum safety standards so you don't die of bocculism as a child from poorly packaged food and taxes go to funding a great many projects that drive economic prosperity such as trade deals, incentive programs etc.. the fact that these creators have a platform on the Internet at all comes from government military projects funded by taxes, SO the parent child analogy still holds just a parent is trading shelter food life skills education to their kid and therefore might have sway over them society encapsulated in a tax funded government is the same.
at around @52:00 - I think that gets into the idea of love languages that people are talking about a lot more. Similar to differences in things like Christmas or birthdays. There are people who go all out and have spreadsheets of gifts and cards etc. Then there are people who do a simple $20 1 gift each and have dinner and that's how they experience the holidays. The way people show love for each other will inform how people live together. If you prefer quality time together as a way to show and receive affection, then living apart or long distance likely isn't going to work.
very nice job. first time watcher of minimalists. Destiny is very good at taking the convo in a certain direction but I really appreciated the push back on the morality and taxation arguments. very thoughtful. thanks to all! even Nebraska Steve LOL
The "Is taxation theft?" question is a bad question. The question should be "Is taxation wrong?" If you consider all theft wrong then obviously you think taxation being theft is wrong. You could technically agree with a specific definition that taxation could count as theft, but then you could easily follow up and say "but I don't think all theft is wrong" and then you would end up at the conversation anyway.
I think a better way of looking at taxation is like the entry fee for movie theater. You have to pay the fee to get inside, everyone does. If you somehow end up inside the theater accidentally, the owner of the theater isn't stealing from you if he asks you to pay the entry fee. If you don't want to pay, you're not entitled to the benefits of being in the theater, and you should leave. Arguably, if you don't want to pay taxes you can "leave" society by not having a job and growing everything you consume by yourself, without spending money. It's not easy by any means, which is why we have societal infrastructure in the first place, so that everyone doesn't need to go chop down trees to build shelter and hunt and gather for food. Enjoying the benefits of our society's advancements means you need to chip in. It's not theft, it's a fee that we need to enforce to have a society at all.
Quick point about the tax debate. Generating personal income requires the support of external systems, which are paid for by tax. Like the legal, finance and infrastructural systems. If you do not pay for these systems (via your tax) how do you expect to make an income? How do you enforce a contract? How do u call when a contract is broken? How would u make that call? Our.. no, your whole system would break down if you said im not going to pay tax and therefore not going to use anything that comes from tax. (Also it's 2023 and not 1823).
I like the low key flex… back in my late 20’s when I was making a few $100,000 a year… “Life was simpler when I had only $23,000 a year.” Because you could only eat, sleep and work? Sure…
Taxation is not theft. It's the price you pay for living in a functioning society. If you don't want to pay taxes, you can just go into the forest and live by yourself. I mean, nobody is going to come after your money if you have none.
Thats's not true. If you go live in the forest the government still comes after you. And you probably aren't even allowed to live in the forest. And living in the forest also doesn't mean you don't have money. And if you don't have money, they just take your stuff instead.
Who is your favorite debater?
Destiny
Steven Kenneth Bonnell II, not only is he my favorite debater, he is my favorite Latino LGBTQ+ millennial streamer.
On the left- Destiny.
On the right- The one listening to destiny talk.
Easy, Destiny.
You clearly forgot to add Goransson there@@ch311o5
T.K. Coleman here. I just wanted to pop in and give a big shout out to Destiny for a fun and stimulating conversation. I know that debates make a lot of people feel tense and that it often looks like we’re fighting when we do this sort of thing, but this was a truly fun conversation for all of us. And we had a lot of laughs and insightful banter in-between the recordings.
I appreciate Destiny coming into our space and being willing to not only argue, but also being willing to share his perspectives on minimalism, consumerism, and relationships. I would not only be happy to have him on the show again, but this is a guy I could enjoy arguing with and conversing with even if…there are no cameras and microphones to capture the conversation.
A very different type of show for us, but man…big shout out to Destiny and our viewers/listeners for coming along for the ride and being open to the adventure.
Much love!
you guys did really well conducting this convo. judging from what destiny said on stream about this podcast, it's clear that he shares the same feelings, as well.
big ol' dggL
I wasn't familiar with you before but was very impressed with how clearly and quickly you were able to express your counters to Destiny off the cuff like that. Especially with regards to the taxation/test discussion.
Very well spoken and good counters and points in the debate. Loved hearing you on talking to destiny
Destiny fan here, but now I’m
A fan of yours too.
I can definitely understand why Destiny spoke so highly about his experience being on this episode
What did he say about this, clip?
@@Now-gn1vk That he really enjoyed the conversation. He was asked what was his favorite podcast to appear on when he did his mass pod appearances, and this was the one he mentioned was really interesting.
@@Now-gn1vk He basically said that the questions, answers and rebuttals all felt meaningful and moved the conversation forward. The exact opposite of some podcasts where people are talking for hours without saying anything relevant or interesting.
It was genuinely exciting to realize an hour had come and gone like that. Most times watching Destiny debate with someone feels like you've listened to people drone on and on, only to realize it's barely been a half hour.
@@note4note804 not tryna be an ad but the partean was actually a whole better conversation than this 1 hour perceived it was.
Will say destiny said this was one of his favorite podcasts to do recently so I can't wait to see for myself
Same destiny has been talking about this for a little bit now ive looked through their catalog a few times trying to find it
Same!
With all the awful people Destiny has been talking to lately. This was a breath of fresh air. I get Destiny's whole brand is to try and make some sense out of the insane but I really miss his old teaching concepts videos
unfortunately, this doesnt print money as much as redpill or drama content☹️
stephen fits ryt in bcoz he is a minimalist or is not prone to conspicous consumption
Oh my god, Destiny hasn't been on a podcast where he gets asked meaningful and unique questions since probably the Lex Fridman/Iced Coffee Hour podcasts. This is fantastic!
Alex O’Conner was probably his most challenging interview if you’re interested
@@AntiTheBird imo Alex exposed major weak points that Destiny needs to address. Definitely an important and valuable conversation!
@SlurmTV Agreed. He was actually asking Alex answers to the questions he was asked lol. Which I respect from Destiny to be honest like that.
What, you didn’t want him to talk to some ex-club promoter or instagram model about if body count matters for the 127th time?
repent to Christ God
Can I just say how refreshing (33:00) it is to actually hear these guys properly engage with hypotheticals? No claiming "debate bro" tactics. No claiming that hypotheticals are pointless to answer. Just simple, qualifying questions to really understand the question, and answer with no hesitation. Great stuff.
eh, I feel like tk got a bit TOO engaged in the hypothetical, and they began discussing them instead.
@darkmoon2744 Then you don't know how to use hypotheticals properly. Hypotheticals are a great way to show to examine ones beliefs and logic on a subject without being judgemental and/or getting their feelings out of the equation. They are also good at examining what is actually important.
This is one of those times where a hypothetical is not necessary. I know the podcast is clipped but they should have spoken about where the money from taxes specifically goes to. There are a lot of public services that are difficult to privatise. The paved streets, public schools, healthcare (depending where you live), military, social services for the poor. Some of these were touched on but very briefly, but talking about privatisation vs nationalisation regarding taxes is far more interesting and doesn't require a random hypothetical scenario.
How does one reconcile that tax is theft when there are are a need for public services? And do government(s) provide enough public services compared to how much they tax (Destiny brought up California with their high tax bracets).
I think before getting into hypotheticals, the answers should be grounded into reality and then moulded into hypotheticals but that's just my thought.
@darkmoon2744 I would say that your perspective on the use of hypotheticals are a bit skewed then. Sure, people use them in the way you described. But a Hypothetical is one of many ways to help better understand a person's perspective. Once you have that understanding, it becomes easier to engage with their points. All depends on how the conversation is going.
@@ra1youu But the topic isn't just about taxation of theft. It's relevant to figure out what the person considers to be theft because not everyone who says taxation is theft has the same perspective. It's important to find out what makes the person think it's theft in the first place.
I'm impressed on how quickly Destiny's contender was able to let go of surface disagreements with Destiny's arguments and dig deeper. When I hear about an hour long show that is going to cover multiple HUGE issues I just roll my eyes because it's going to be the same surface level discussion. This was good
It's like a ptsd response from Destiny's many debates xD. No topic ever really gets unfolded, we just get a bunch of technicalities, unanswered questions, shift in topics and shouting matches xD. I also really enjoy just getting general insights into why Destiny thinks the way he does, especially because he's so seemingly different from myself, yet similar in some aspects.
Hey I’m here as a fan of Destiny but I really loved what y’all talked about. Destiny has gone on so many different podcast and this is the first one I plan on watching In the future.
I never expected Destiny on a podcast like this but it also makes a lot of sense. He definitely has a lot of minimalist tendencies.
@@TubeWuselI'm no where near as clean or tidy as Destiny, but too much stuff hurts my ADHD brain for sure. I feel like it's crowding around me. I love going around with a bin bag.
Unfortunately my wife and kids do not.
This episode could've been way longer because the topics and the way they were approached was interesting
Agreed. Such a fun discussion. The full 3-hour conversation is on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists
@@TheMinimalistsPodcastyeeeeah...
Destiny bought me here because I have such respect for his thought process and now I've found another place to get thoughtful conversation. Thank you for such a stimulating conversation.
I love when two people i watch regularly from opposite ends of the internet end up collaborating. Its so cool.
Nice debate, bros. Both debaters were respectful and debated their points thoroughly. This is 50/50 I won’t say anyone dominated.
debate ? i think it was more like an interview
Yeah but destiny definitely got destroyed in this debate
@@faikerdogan2802because they weren't shouting at each other? What do you think a debate is?
@@firepitch5113 i think a debate is when people challenge each others opinions and try to change their minds. not just talk about their beliefs. but again i said "it was more like" not Definity like
This is a great convo with Destiny, I hope Ben Shapiro responds to his challenge !
I really love the thing where you guys are standing there listening to the phone, it took me a moment to realize you guys were not actually listening on that phone since its an audio recording... and then a little bit later I realized you probably aren't even listening to the audio recording its likely just some b roll edited with the audio recording over it. Then it became amazingly hilarious how intently you guys looked like you were listening. I hope that stays in the show forever. Also great convo guys... 2 years ago I had very little hope our country was ever going to start moving in the right direction again, and recently ive been seeing all these podcasts and youtube channels that are becoming popular because they just want to have civil conversations and explore topics respectfully, and now my hope is back, thanks!
My favorite podcast Destiny has ever been on, so much information and interesting thoughts, great job guys, definitely a new sub.
I'm 19 minutes in and I'm extremely impressed. Destiny was right these guys never fill air. Everything they say has purpose.
Would love it if Destiny had TK on his stream sometime so they can have a more in depth conversation about some of these topics, super unfortunate they could only touch on these subjects very briefly, although ironically they were some of the most engaging discussions on these subjects I've seen in a long time despite the time constraint. I understand why Destiny had such positive views about his appearance on this podcast, almost nothing said was filler or unoriginal, everything seemed well thought out and well understood by all parties. Very good discussion.
Helps when everyone is well spoken.
TK is so inspiring! I love his responses. Most of his first sentences I completely disagree with and then he explains it soooo well it really makes sense. I love his outlook on life.
Wow, initially only intended to watch the first 5 minutes. Ended up watching the whole hour 😅 Wonderful convo. Although I come from Destiny’s fanbase I want to acknowledge and appreciate TK’s perspective on the topics, clearly a learned man and he spoke eloquently. You guys knocked it out of the park, kudos!
This was a good conversation.
Was super excited to see Destiny as a guest! I love his viewpoints and calm, concise ways of debating.
It's actually funny you see him as a calm debater. I imagine him as the guy losing his shit in a discord call. Lol.
@@Jones-ke6bt Oh you don't have to imagine, he's that guy too sometimes. lol
Calm, intelligent debate is what the internet needs more of!!! This was great!
I swear Bonelli is on every podcast on youtube
$$$$$$
I really enjoy this because otherwise I would likely not have discovered some of the podcasts that he has been on recently on my own.
DGG Stonks are rising!
Time to buy!
I've been been married to my husband for 27 years. He is an agnostic, Democrat, and lives completely in the moment with no looking back at past or planning for the future. I, however am a Christian, Republican, who has spreadsheets on top of spreadsheets plotting retirement and am constantly reflecting on the past and looking toward the future, goal setting, etc., sometimes forgetting to enjoy the now. I think we epitomize loving someone despite differences. Although it is very difficult at times. We tend to avoid some topics....
Good convo guys, thanks!
TK is so easy to listen to. He seems to respond intentionally and without emotion. I value his input.
Felt nice to see two people have a conversation and a back and forth debate without running down dialogue trees and not engaging in what each other was saying.
Long on rhetoric , short on solutions I thought.
Easily the best debate I’ve ever seen. I say that because both sides were able to present their points of view clearly in a way that made it easy to see why they think how they do. It’s a lot better than just seeing one guy destroy another, or an incoherent dialogue that conveys nothing.
Great pod! Professional at all moments without getting a hint of boring.
great guest, great hosting, great conversation. thanks guys!
Destiny and TK are both class acts. Love the smooth transitional conversation leading from Joshua too. Wish you guys the best in the future.
Def needed more than hr for these discussions. I’d like to see a longer convo with this same lineup. Nice to listen to, gents
Im only 15mins in and it feels like an hour has gone past, but in a good way. You guys have figured out how to say so much in so little time, something people tend to have the other way around.
Man. Easy sub. Here from dgg - fantastic discussion and production, and what i most appreciate is the prep these guys seem to put in for their guests
You guys have a nice operation going on here. I love the look and feel of the show!
I'm 26 minutes in and I'm fascinated by the conversation
Taxation isn't theft because you have in fact given consent, implicitly. If you don't want to pay taxes, you are free to leave the country. It's part of the societal contract.
Saying it's theft is like saying having to pay for goods is theft.
Wouldn't that mean any situation you can simply "leave" but don't is one you implicitly consent to?
Meaning every slave who didn't/doesn't run away day 1 is implicitly consenting to being enslaved?
Reason I bring that up is most people can't just "leave the country" on a whim. Even though the "opportunity" is there.
@@justifano7046 If you can leave freely then yes that's consent. If there's however pressure on you in any ways to not leave then no consent. This get's particularly fun in cases of alleged sexual assault where the victim didn't vehemently object.
The issue with leaving the country is mostly that you can only leave to another country, where you still need to undergo a process of vetting usually. Interestingly there are ~14 countries without taxes in the world. so there would be options.
As for slavery, most american slaves where certainly held against their will, allthough some of the better of ones essentially consented. Historically slavery and indentured servitude where often voluntary as well.
It's important to note however that you can't consent to something that is illegal.
@@justifano7046 Its like if you were a 40 year old living at your parents and you refuse to participate in household income. That what I hear when I hear taxation is theft.
Wow the moderator did an amazing job as well!
The lady laughing in the background is always welcome
Wow this is the LAST crossover I ever would have expected.
Good stuff, Destiny fit in just right for this convo
Heck yeah!
Destiny is awesome, glad you had him on. :-)
5 minutes in and yeah, this is definitely a good listen, no wonder Destiny spoke highly of the convo
I like how Destiny pulled apart the idea of loving someone despite their differences. I can genuinely say that I have those extreme edge cases of opinion among my core friend group although there is of course a common thread that binds us. I certainly have other friends I think would find some of my views repulsive and some of my other friends completely objectionable. We’ve talked about this with each other, how we seem to have this ability. I’ve always kind of wished I had a good way to articulate that position to someone who might claim that they can love people despite their differences when I felt intuitively that their claim to that quality was brittle. Destiny has put it perfectly. I might give that a go someday if the opportunity presents itself.
Destiny has grown quite a bit since I first watched him.
Taxation as theft:
1. If you live in a society and use the roads and libraries and fire department and police, but you do not pay taxes, then isn't it you who is the thief?
2. With thievery you have no choice but to have your property stolen. With taxation you are free to leave the country and go somewhere more amenable to your philosophy. If you can leave and you don't, then you have given tacit approval for the taxation. And therefore it is not theft.
@TheMinimalists I was curious when Joshua said he has an open marriage in episode 409, in a minimalist perspective, wouldn’t it be easier to have one significant other and just minimize your efforts and perfect that relationship with your spouse? Thanks for considering the Q.
@@biochemica2 I guess my understanding of minimalism is also reducing choices while working with one specific situation. So in the case of an open marriage, wouldn’t it be easier to divorce/ stay as friends and move on? No judgment here but I’m also trying to approach this from my developing understanding of minimalism.
Finally, Destiny has been hyping me up on this episode for a while.
I just got rear-ended by an idiot driver in Richmond VA. They drove off and my car is damaged. There is nothing I can do about it, but hanging out in a parking lot over night and listening to destiny do his thing definitely helps.
This is amazing. Go on again, and again, and again…
I didn't expect this TK guy to be a voluntaryist/ancap. Nice to see someone actually being able to defend the taxation is theft stance against Destiny. Destiny's defense is so bad imo... did he forget that value is subjective?
Destiny is such an excellent guest
You guys are AWESOME!!! What a great conversation without fighting! Civil, level-headed, smart men!!!
Aren’t taxes like rent? Is rent theft? Loved this debate. While I love TK, my past experiences and thoughts aligned more with Destiny’s. Not that that means anything. I was just surprised. Great debate!
Literally 😂
Is ppl not wanting to pay tax but also use services / live in a Country theft?
I think where many people have a problem is the poor stewardship the government has shown with the taxes they do collect. People feel they’re not getting their money’s worth or that the government is making very poor financial decisions. People feel that their money is being wasted and/or misspent.
In your analogy of rent, it would be like the landlord letting the building rot and never fixing the appliances.
Yea, that's my question too. I feel like Taxation is more of a club membership you pay in order to be part of a larger society. If you don't want to pay taxes, you could theoretically move up into the mountains and off the grid entirely, but that also means you do not get the benefits of hospitals, roads, schools etc etc.
@@Majorfuckinghero ppl act like they are intitled to society smh
This was great to watch. Very few podcasts worth their bandwidth thanks for having destiny on.
I love podcasts like this, just a friendly reminder to all it's ok to disagree and we can do it with a smile and not call each other names!
The difference between the child doing chores at home and the housekeeper doing the same, the child has a stake in the house, the housekeeper doesn’t. It’s a social contract, same as how an adult needs to conduct themselves in a certain way in public. The house is the child’s “public”.
So glad to see women of color talk about minimalism.
This is a great business move lol. I’m so invested that I need to go to the Patreon now :p
It's hard staying clean in an apartment when your neighbors aren't and so it still attracts bugs.
Great podcast! Thanks for having Destiny on! Some feedback as a first time viewer: as a headphone user the woman laughing was very loud and distracting, and honestly added as much as a laugh track (can’t stand those). I suggest either muting when you’re laughing or turning down her volume. Thanks!
Specifically watched this because destiny said you were great
Roads to drive to work: paid by taxes
Cops to ensure safe roads: paid by taxes
Firefighters/emergency to ensure safety of the community: paid for by taxes
Education that helps me write, read, etc: paid by taxes.
We do not live on private islands. We are not individuals living on our own in the woods.
I want more of this guy
Wow this was a heavy one! Did enjoy it though. Interesting. My husband also likes the moment with homer backing off in to the bushes 😂
35:02 right, but we’re talking about an action that’s literally needed in order to keep society functioning. The reason why you’re able to make any money at all is because other people that came before you paid into the system which then laid the groundwork for you to be able to work.
I like the person in the background with the laugh.
Love T.K. Coleman. Could be our Chicago upbringing, but he says everything I agree with. Never heard of Destiny, but I am now a fan. This was a great podcast episode. Thank you! Glad to be a Patreon.
When we talk about taxation being theft or our involvement in society, it's important to remember that none of use agreed to be in this society. We were born here against our will and societal rules and regulations are forced on us under threat of violence from the state. That is not freedom.
Sure, but what does true freedom look like? I don't think most people want a Mad Max lifestyle.
Well by that standard noone was ever free
18:34 Such a great point. Its like being the best Halo player between your 10 friends but online play opens up and u suck at it 90% the time. Its good if u dont give up when u feel foolish in a conversations. Its a learning experience. DONT MAKE YOUR FIRST DEBATE ON A LARGE LIVE STREAM plzzzzz
Big fan of Destiny, enjoyed the convo. Liked the video 👍
My favorite debater was “Destiny, Placeholder For Title”
This is the first podcast that has made me consider actually subscribing on patreon (although I still won’t because I’m broke). As a long time Destiny viewer, there have been very very few conversations he’s had that are anywhere near this quality. I can’t say enough good things about this episode, keep up the good work
I disagree with that he's talked about way more important stuff than what they talked about on this show
Oh, Christopher Wallken and Lous Gosett Jr. are having a podcast together. How nice! But who is the guest?
One of the most engaging Destiny podcast appearances in a while!
I do hoarding clean ups for work and man it’s really sad and it’s a mental sickness that can vary from comical to this person needs a huge wake up call
Just one of your best dialogues! More please!
This podcast is amazing. Everybody is eincredibly well spoken and has novel non-trivial things to say
I am challenged by this notion that I can't run down the street naked, it feels so good every time I do it. 'merica....
Loved that placeholder for title guy
Wow, never saw you guys before, but absolutely loving the discussion
On the tax topic destiny should've brought up that wealth/value isn't in actuality created independently of the tax funded state(in some theoretical libertarian utopia you might say it 'could be' but it never has happened). Taxes go to police and the military which maintain order so rather than being in a hobbesian state of nature of all against all, value and wealth can be created, taxes go to roads and infrastructure that facilitate industry and travel to be able to build get wealth and value, taxes pay for regulatory bodies that maintain minimum safety standards so you don't die of bocculism as a child from poorly packaged food and taxes go to funding a great many projects that drive economic prosperity such as trade deals, incentive programs etc.. the fact that these creators have a platform on the Internet at all comes from government military projects funded by taxes, SO the parent child analogy still holds just a parent is trading shelter food life skills education to their kid and therefore might have sway over them society encapsulated in a tax funded government is the same.
Ngl I wish this was longer. Super interesting podcast and I just subscribed
at around @52:00 - I think that gets into the idea of love languages that people are talking about a lot more. Similar to differences in things like Christmas or birthdays. There are people who go all out and have spreadsheets of gifts and cards etc. Then there are people who do a simple $20 1 gift each and have dinner and that's how they experience the holidays. The way people show love for each other will inform how people live together. If you prefer quality time together as a way to show and receive affection, then living apart or long distance likely isn't going to work.
very nice job. first time watcher of minimalists. Destiny is very good at taking the convo in a certain direction but I really appreciated the push back on the morality and taxation arguments. very thoughtful. thanks to all! even Nebraska Steve LOL
Woman in the background got the most insanely endearing laugh I’ve ever heard
The "Is taxation theft?" question is a bad question. The question should be "Is taxation wrong?" If you consider all theft wrong then obviously you think taxation being theft is wrong. You could technically agree with a specific definition that taxation could count as theft, but then you could easily follow up and say "but I don't think all theft is wrong" and then you would end up at the conversation anyway.
Man, I could probably listen for another 2 hours
This was an awesome convo
the way they hold the phone is so dystopian and rigid lmao
I think a better way of looking at taxation is like the entry fee for movie theater. You have to pay the fee to get inside, everyone does. If you somehow end up inside the theater accidentally, the owner of the theater isn't stealing from you if he asks you to pay the entry fee. If you don't want to pay, you're not entitled to the benefits of being in the theater, and you should leave.
Arguably, if you don't want to pay taxes you can "leave" society by not having a job and growing everything you consume by yourself, without spending money. It's not easy by any means, which is why we have societal infrastructure in the first place, so that everyone doesn't need to go chop down trees to build shelter and hunt and gather for food. Enjoying the benefits of our society's advancements means you need to chip in. It's not theft, it's a fee that we need to enforce to have a society at all.
The issue with these discussions is I zone out at work getting sucked into hearing every word said.
Quick point about the tax debate. Generating personal income requires the support of external systems, which are paid for by tax. Like the legal, finance and infrastructural systems. If you do not pay for these systems (via your tax) how do you expect to make an income? How do you enforce a contract? How do u call when a contract is broken? How would u make that call? Our.. no, your whole system would break down if you said im not going to pay tax and therefore not going to use anything that comes from tax. (Also it's 2023 and not 1823).
Thank god he didn’t bring up Dogwarts
Wonderful conversation.
I like the low key flex… back in my late 20’s when I was making a few $100,000 a year… “Life was simpler when I had only $23,000 a year.” Because you could only eat, sleep and work? Sure…
Taxation is not theft. It's the price you pay for living in a functioning society. If you don't want to pay taxes, you can just go into the forest and live by yourself. I mean, nobody is going to come after your money if you have none.
Thats's not true. If you go live in the forest the government still comes after you. And you probably aren't even allowed to live in the forest. And living in the forest also doesn't mean you don't have money. And if you don't have money, they just take your stuff instead.
Destiny been saying this is one of the best podcasts he’s been on. Excited.
Great job, Minimalist… fired me up…. Totally stressed after this podcast… 🤦🏼♀️ 🤪