I love how they got the mysticism of Dune out there and treated it seriously. Imagine Alia as a baby going through this with Baron Vladimir haunting her.
Won't happen. They're clearly setting up a Paul-Alia reversal in Part Three, otherwise Paul killing the Baron makes no sense. Villeneuve will likely be butchering the source material once more
@@humbleopulenceSo much salt & no spice. Denis is not doing Children of Dune. Alia’s possession by Baron can still be handled. Alia is Paul’s sister and Baron’s granddaughter after all.
@tarikbrowne Alia wasn't just a Reverend Mother able to see the female line, she was the preborn sister of a Kwisach Haderack, Paul, as was his equal as were the twins Leto & Ghanima.
Which makes me wonder if Desmond has become a sort of spice generated KH, who is possessed. Ghoula makes no sense as they still have to go through a childhood once created. Ixian tech is a definite maybe too. The KH idea could work well as against BGs, as it could then explain why they think a KH is possible, but they want one they can control. Desmond cannot be controlled but could open their eyes to how powerful a KH could be if created and controlled by the BG.
Your approval of the show is the most important one. I actually enjoyed it, they are threading with the original Herbert concepts and trying to sideline the Brian contribution. Hope that continues.
@@maciedixon3983it's true but it was short. It's definitely not expanded in the first Dune so we will see if they touch on the underlying themes like *counterfeiting a human mind*
“On a path too short”. Reminds me of the kwisatz Haderach which means “shortening of the way”. Maybe Desmond Hart is some kind of primitive flawed failed kwisatz Haderach that inspires the Bene Gesserit to undergo the breeding program.
Something about Constantine is setting off alarm bells. Ynez tells a story about rebels kidnapping her and Constantine when they were children. Their father covered it up and Constantine never talks about it - could he have been compromised somehow? Constantine was in the palace when the child burned and earlier he was ALSO in the house of the BG where Kasha later died - could he have planted a device somewhere which activated when she was near? Perhaps working in conjunction with Desmond (with or without his knowledge) or even using him as a scapegoat. He definitely let that information about Desmond slip on purpose. There's more to him and he's being played as a careless secondary character to lull us into dismissing him.
I don’t think she died just yet bc in the previews for upcoming episodes shows her with some kind of device over her mouth with someone saying she’s close to death.
She's 100% not dead. She's comatose. The preview for Ep3 she's her on a medical bed with monitoring stuff on her face and they say, "she may never wake up". If you're watching shows on MAX you can ffw the end credits to see the previews for next week.
Sounds like a direct reference to Paul Atreides to me. This is the Kwisatz Haderach prophecy. I wish someone could make a supercut of all the times in the movies that the female voices talk to Paul in visions. Because they tell the full story and directly connect to the prophecy in episode 2 of this show. At the end of Dune Part One during the Jamis fight, the voices say to Paul something like “Paul Atreides must die for Kwisatz Haderach to rise”, and then “if you take a life, you take your own” before Paul proceeds to kill him. So killing Jamis was Paul taking his own life, aka his blood life. Which directly sets him on a path to be reborn in the spice, and fully become the one. You hear the same voices again in Dune Part 2 during Paul’s spice agony. Right before he rises you hear them say “Kwisatz Haderach, climb up, rise!”. So now with the context of this show, we can imagine all of the ancestors anointing Paul as the prophesied one, as he escapes the agony. Paul is also a weapon born of war as was also said during the agony. The circumstances that allow him to become the one are the war on Arrakis. And if we take the “if you take a life, you take your own” line even further. We could infer that all the time he spent killing in the war was just a way to kill the Paul we knew in part one more and more. Making more and more room for Kwisatz Haderach to fill in. The Kwisatz Haderach (Paul) WAS a weapon born of war at the end of the day.
Yeah it's moving along better than I expected. The production looks really really good and the writing is good. I keep comparing this to The Acolyte and wow... what a difference. 1/3 of the budget too.
I feel like some of the acting is questionable, and the music was a bit over the top. I am enjoying the plot so far though and the set/costume design is very nice
I can’t believe I didn’t think of this before but I think this theory may be right so POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD…in the books the sorceresses of Rossak who inspired Raquella to found the sisterhood, and much of the sorceresses themselves joined the sisterhood, had the ability to boil the thinking machine’s brains with their telekinetic abilities. I think Desmond is the son of one of the last remaining sorceresses which means he actually does have this telekinetic ability. I think not only him but Jenn has this ability as well and she was actually the one to kill Kasha. Jenn is saying more and more that insinuates she does not agree with The Sisterhood and is probably working as an agent from the inside with Desmond. Majority of the sorceresses joined the The Sisterhood in very early days, and unfortunately much of them died off but I believe some never joined and remained on Rossak. Perhaps this is where Desmond came from and perhaps Jenn is related to him.
I rewatched the episode. In the final scene, Desmond says "Ive always wondered what you would fear" to Valya. That's something you say to someone you already know. We've already seen Dorotea show agency over Lila during the Agony. What if Dorotea is behind Desmond somehow?
Doratea tells Lila that she is her grandmother and that Lila's mother is not there in the genetic memory. That means Lila's mother is alive. Desmond having familiarity with Valya suggests he knows her. Whatever he is, Doratea's daughter/Lila's mother is the one pulling Desmond's strings
Maybe the overall arc of the show is about a reformation in the sisterhood, a process moved by external factors that moves the sisterhood itself to reforge their order/strategy/beliefs consolidating them as the Bene Gesserit that we come to see in Dune.
It looks awesome and I agree FH would have liked seeing his work with so much production value. That said some important details of the source material aren't being respected very well so far. Namely how the girl shouldn't have had memories of her mother's death because that's not how genetic memory works... memories are only passed up until the point of conception in Dune lore. This weird fantasy interpretation creates the potential for a LOT of plotholes. Villeneuve made the same mistake with prescience in Dune Part 2 and it's diluting the sci-fi too much.
@@spacewombat4569 Lila's Mother was not even present in the memories. It was her grandmother. Tula is a master manipulator just like Valya. Don't fall for her sensitive motherly attitude. Her first lesson to acolytes was literally about "lies". She probably lied to Lila about how she could find her mother in her memories so that she would "willingly" undergo the Agony.
@Christo_Trismegistus that was her grandmother. She even days somthing about how her mother isn't here and is that what they told you to get you to do this.
My fan theory about what Desmond Hart is (possible spoilers, unless I'm totally wrong of course. I've read all of Frank Herbert's books and most of Brian's/KJA's but not Sisterhood of Dune): ****Possible spoilers**** I think he might be a "false" Kwisatz Haderach. Remember how when Paul and others are tested with the Gom Jabar it's mentioned the reason they conduct these tests is because there have been disasters in the past when males were gifted with prescience? I think Desmond may be the first of those and explains both why he's so confused about his powers and why the Sisterhood have no clue how to deal with him or how he fits into the prophecy. Somehow, when he was swallowed by the sandworm he may have been exposed to their bile (or at least a weakened form since it wasn't drowned) and was connected to any latent potential he had, possibly through Bene Gesserit ancestors. He mentions in this episode being able to see what the Sisters cannot see and there's a lot of parallels in the structure of the episode between him and what Lila goes through as part of the Agony and Other Memory. He could still be a ghola too, but I think that's less likely since if the Tleilaxu have the genetic record of someone massively powerful like Desmond I feel like we would've seen them use and splice that into a lot more gholas and creations in the future books. As for the Sister's prophecy, I think they're still seeing the far future with Paul and the rise of the God-Emperor, but they are misinterpreting that as the threat rather than something now that threatens the Sisterhood's current existence (which would prevent Leto's Golden Path from coming to fruition and thus endangering all of humanity). In this early version of their prophecy they see the tyrant as the threat rather than threats that would block the tyrant's rise to power. They haven't mentioned the Kwisatz Haderach in this show yet so it's possible they're still flying very blind. Again, just my thoughts and a fan theory that popped into my head as I was watching the show. I take no credit if this turns out to be wrong by the very next episode. But if I'm right? I expect my check in the mail. 😎
@manasvenraina351 Thanks! I could be totally off (probably totally off), but it jumped into my head while I was watching and I'm glad the show got my noggin going.
That would be wild - I think the idea would be an entertaining one. What's this with the bile exposure and surviving that worm devouring him though? How, you think??
@justinklenk Still an unkown at this point, but maybe his awakening gave him a similar ability to neutralize poisons as the Bene Gesserit have? If one of his ancestors was a Sister they could have jumped in as his consciousness was fading and helped him maybe? As for surviving the rest of the worm eating him I'm still trying to figure that part out. 🤷♂️
Yes it would be very interesting, but one thing doesn't sit right with me - how could she see him or sense him? Even Paul didn't know that he would have a son, he was that powerful, so how could one of the first reverend mother see it?
@@wodara9236 fair enough, in the end I think the tyrant part is going to be a vague reference and Arafel, as Leto II forsaw it, must be a prescient machine of some sort.
Just because the Tleilaxu make gholas from corpses doesn't mean that they can't also make a clone from a living person, or make multiple clones. Maybe Desmond is just a regular clone. And there could be more than one.
I don't think Desmond can resist the Voice as he does everything she says up until the blade would kill him. I think he might be conditioned to do no harm to himself or sort of a protection of this technology.
Never heard of Dune before the Villeneuve movies, never read the books, have watched hours of content on this channel. That being said, I find myself constantly craving more of the Dune universe and this has currently satisfied that craving lol. It’s early but I think these first 2 episodes are very promising. This stuff is fascinating.
I like the show too. My thought on "path too short" - it is reference to golden path. Like someone wants the same thing as Bene Gesserit, but wants to take a shortcut.
One question raised in this episode: Did/does Tula know that Valya murdered Theodora? Why would Tula lie to Lila about the circumstances of her mother's death if she knew full well that there was a good chance she was about to "meet" her mother and learn otherwise? Lila knew what Valya had done for the few moments she survived the agony, but did any other living person know?
I loved the agony scene and representation of genetic memory in this episode. I liked it way more than how Jessica’s spice agony was portrayed in the movie. The image of Lila being overwhelmed by thousands upon thousands of egos of her ancestors in a dark claustrophobic but also unending corridors. Combined with the clothing design and vfx making them look like literal ghost. Just superbly weird, it visually got the idea across, and it was closer to how I pictured it while reading the books.
Solid 9/10 for me. The revelation of Bene Gesserit spies e v e r y w h e r e is chef's kiss. The other memory scene was horrific - i loved it, the parallels to Lila being possessed by her grandparent just like Alia would be 10,000 years later. I think Raquella's prophecy definitely relates to Desmond, although it could also be about Leto II. I still think ghola, or perhaps he's become a proto-Kwisatz Haderach through his experience with the worm, and his existence is what makes the Bene Gesserit reconsider their goal of a sister on the throne (maybe he's the reason they use the Gom Jabbar to sift people in the future). There seems to be something going on with Desmond's right eye throughout the episode though.
Something i dont see anyone talking about is Lila's ancestry. She was told that her mother died giving birth ... But grandmother (Dorotea) said during the agony that her mother "is not here." Which makes me think mothers death is a lie. If thats true, this is important. When offered a way out by Tula, "We'll just have to look for other options" ... Perhaps Lila isnt the only one they could attempt Agony with. Mother could be out there. Perhaps hard to reach, or someone who has gone rogue / anti Bene Gesseret (after learning about Valya killing Dorotea?). Or ... And this would be nuts ... But Mikaela, the sister assigned to the rebels, is her mother? I suspect Raquella's line will continue to be central to the show, and is perhaps the one rhing Brian Herbert wanted to influence (for better or worse).
great theory and very thought provoking, but someone doesn't have to be dead to be in their other memories. The Baron vladamir harkonnen was still alive when Paul atreides drank the worm juice/agony, and baron was right there 2 generations back. SPOILERS FOR THE FUTURE DUNE MOVIES AND DUNE PART 3 BELOW: PAUL was not possessed and overtaken by him the way his sister was, but the baron was there.
@SPIKESPIEGEL1969 two thoughts: 1) is the Spice Agony identical to this primitive form with the Rossack poison? 2) What could it mean for Dorotea to say "your mother isn't here" then? The mother is dead but not present among the vast sea of past generations because ...? I really don't think you bother to write that in the script without it hinting to some larger purpose.
@@PatrickGann yeah there certainly is something going on there. we'll have to see how it goes. possibly just an inconsistency on their parts. or its also possible I am wrong.
Pretty solid episode. My only real complaint was with Valya interrogating Desmond. Specifically, that he's never asked how he did it. I can do some hand-waving at it I suppose but it seemed like an obvious thing to ask and it just wasn't. That was the only thing in the writing that bugged me this episode, it was pretty good otherwise. There's the whole "scene that went on too long" but it's HBO and well...(s)exposition is to be expected with HBO almost like it's a rule with any show from them. It was the nighclub scene from the 1stt episode essentially and I think we should just expect one per episode.
The HBO Sexposition Dump™ is a time-honored tactic to get eyes on "childish" genre fare like fantasy and sci-fi, but it always runs the risk of cheapening a production. It'd be a shame if being Hot TV Dune That Fucks™ overshadows the actual story in the discourse.
My theory on Dune: Prophecy, particularly Desmond. (As of Ep 2) Desmond is a herald, not a prophet. As a consequence of Sisterhood's over-reach, weaking the emperor, he has died and been reborn, strolled up to the palace, disheveled and gotten a job, then murdered the Emperor's advisor and a child-groom (representing the infantilised child the Sisterhood have turned the Emperor into). All a result of the Sisterhood. Desmond's character is complex but (being meta here) he functions an avatar of Death (change and transformation), and gets sucked into things only to a play pivotal role in balancing the scales. Also, I am picking up major Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibes, particularly the early chapters with the collapse of the Han Dynasty (Corrino) as a result of the Eunuchs (Sisterhood) corruption, causing a fanatical rebellion as a result of the peasants starving, which is eventually quelled by He Jin (Desmond), until he his eventually assassinated in the palace by the Eunuchs who are then put to death by his subordinates...leading to the collapse of the Eastern Han Dynasty and decades of civil war. Regarding him being a potential face dancer or ghola, I can't speak on that..HOWEVER. I have been reading about mind control; manufacturing identity, false memories etc. "He's telling the truth, so much as believes it." - While this may be the ladies standard manipulation to inspire doubt, it's very likely true. Desmond almost seemed lost when Valya asked about where he came from. If you are provided a false identity and false memories, you really do believe them to be true. Your identity, memories and beliefs frame your common sense experience. Imagine Kuze in Ghost in the Shell, now think of the 2017 movie and the guy who gets arrested and believes he has a kid... both represent two sides of the same coin. Connecting to Travis Fimmel's other characters, particularly Ragnar of Vikings (whose characterisation is fused with the myths of Odin) who was a highly manipulative leader, constantly concerned with fate, like Odin, fundamentally brings about the destruction of the world around him (even after his death). He is an aspect of Death, while the Sisterhood/Bene Gesseret function as aspects of Birth. Connecting to Raised with Wolves you get a similar thing, a man pretending to be someone he is not. Desmond, functionally does not serve the Imperium any more than he serves the Sisterhood, he simply recognises the bigger threat, suffers directly from their actions and is reborn anew, determined to help the underdog. Despite the mystery and complexity of his character, in the grand scheme of things, he is the serpent in the garden (devoured by Shai Hulud, the Great Worm/Wyrm), he purpose is to elevate consciousness, balance the scales. In this narrative, the Sisterhood have infantilised the Emperor, in other narratives, they would be oppressed heavily. In a standard romance, where both are equal, Desmond would be the outright villain. All in all, trying to understand is like to figure out Leonardo DiCaprio's true identity in Shutter Island: the more you look, the less sense any previous idea will make. Think like a prescient, recognise his purpose as a herald of a new dawn, an agent of death; one who brings change and transformation. PS. if you're wondering why he doesn't follow Valya's command, it could be more than technology. He simply tells the truth. Truth is not threatened by lies, lies are always threatened by truth. He recognises that everything she says is a manipulation designed to disempower and destroy you, he fully understands this and her motivations. Consider that the power is not in technology, but understanding. Most people hear Valya, Desmond can see her. The show is being told from the perspective of a Harkonnen that says their greatest weapon is the lie. The show is told from the perspective of the Third Reich, The Sith, Voldemort and Wyrmtongue. If you can't see that, you'll not recognise the story is being told from the perspective of the villains. Peace, prosperity and prescience.
If you wait until the end credits of the episode the trailer for the next episode plays. And there was a clip of Lila with some kind of breathing apparatus on like maybe she’s in a coma? And you see Tula with a cup of golden liquid. Possibly spice to try and save her? Maybe this also leads them to using spice instead of Rossack poison. Which would cause another dynamic if she lives where Lila knows that her great grandmother was killed by the rev mother
I enjoyed this episode more than the first. I like how things are moving forward and I am also very intrigued by the mystery of Desmond and his abilities. The fact he can resist the Voice really surprised me and excited me to see what's gonna happen next. I wonder what is gonna happen to Kieran because while he wants to help the Rebellion he has feelings for the Princess, and will he get outed or find a way to keep what he's been up to a secret? I wonder how things are gonna turn out for him since, unless we meet other Atreides offspring we have to assume the line of House Atreides that goes to Duke Leto and Paul goes through Kieran.
vorian atreides was basically genghis khan in this universe, his spawn is everywhere, he anchor beings the timeline. the house of atreides main characters the whole series, now newly established at caladan. also, lila is a descendant of reverend mother raquella who was the granddaughter of vorian atreides.
There has to be many other Atreides. They are a ruling house in the Dune universe, the lord of a ruling house does not work as a servant in the Emperor's household, Keiran will be some distant cousin of the actual ruling part of House Atreides.
Given Scytale mentioned they made one between book 1 and 2 and he killed himself the show runners might want to borrow this. Villeneuve doesn't like too much exposition so he will probably not include this info in Messiah
Yes that one scene that was a bit too long, I thought it was unnecessary but then I remembered it’s very Heretics/Chapterhouse core 🌚 I was just waiting for her to say “my hands are fire”
I don’t think Desmond was worried if the voice was going to work on him, I think he was just fucking with Valya. He even says something to that effect afterwards, he was testing her, and she feared he “didn’t care what she said”. Like with the Prince he killed, Desmond again seems to get agitated or drained after burning people for a bit.
This is possibly unrelated, but Travis Fimmel, the actor playing Desmond Hart is wearing a contact in his right eye. You can tell there’s like an orange blotch in the blue. And he has very pure piercing blue eyes. You can really tell he’s wearing a contact in one eye in the first episode. I kind of like the idea that Quinn proposed. Possible Cymek. That would explain how he easily caught the robot lizard. Which I thought was really well done! That lizard was beautiful.
To me he wasn't aware of the Voice, and was surprised by the whole thing. That's how I saw his face, and that would be consistent with general knowledge, the Voice even in the time of Paul is a well guarded secret. Hell, even Thufir doesn't really know about it.
My current theory is that Desmond Hart actually didn’t kill Reverend Mother Kasha. How would his power work across the galaxy. The emperor made A point to mention this. But….if there was a second ghola….? I think the acolyte Jen killed Kasha, and is a also a ghola with the same ability as Hart
It's official I love this show. So much in this episode love that I think this is the first time we've ever really got to see what it's like when someone accesses their ancestral memories. Beautifully done. I especially love that how when you awaken those ancestral memories if there's anything people have told you that are not quite true you're going to discover them.😊😊
I'm cautiously optimistic about the show so far. It strikes me that part of what is being set up for the BGs is that they are uncovering this prophecy which actually speaks about Leto II and they are mistaking it as referring to their current situation. Realizing that mistake seems like the thing they must learn to reorient their objectives and priorities toward their Dune-time-period institutional structure. Alternately (or in parallel), it may be a warning about either the final assault of the Honored Matres that cripples the sisterhood, or even about the threat of a return of the thinking machines that at least the Brian/Kevin retcon of books 7 and 8 imply Leto was trying to prepare against. Either way, I think they are mistaking a project about a distant threat as describing their immediate threat and they have to figure that out.
The words of the girl who died during the Agony showed just how ambiguous prophecies can be. To me, it sounded more like she was referring to Paul or Leto II, than Desmond Hart.
@She mentioned in Ep1 she’s a descendant of a branch of Zensunni wanderers (which are the ancestors of the Fremen). So if she’s not specifically Fremen, she has a cultural tie to them. I like that they’ve subtly conveyed this at multiple points in these first 2 episodes.
12:00 I might be mistaken but I also believe it's stated in the original books by frank herbert that the Voice cannot override the most primal instinct of humans, like you can order someone to give you their gun but not to shoot themselves
The movies made the Voice way too strong. It's Jedi mind control, only worse. The show might follow in those footsteps. If the mother superior wanted to kill him, she could just have stroke his hand when he was resisting, pushing the blade into the throat. Or more in line with the books, she could have poisoned him, or used a mix of influences, lies and Voice to have a few palace guards do the dirty work for her. Yes the Voice is strong, but in a very short or very oblique way. Jessica couldn't have survived their desert trip if the Harkonens soldiers weren't undisciplined rapey thugs in the first place, and she spent probably a few hours studying and listening to them.
The sisters’ belief that arafel is upon them could parallel a tendency I personally have observed among evangelical Christian’s sects to believe that the end times are constantly upon them. It’s a pattern they’ve displayed over 100 years pointing to a certain ‘current’ event and claiming it fulfills a particular prophecy. It’s possible the sisters are making a similar mistake with Raquella’s words. They think it is happening in their time when it can just as easily be referring to events 10,000 years in the future. I also wonder if “a path too short” isn’t a hint towards humanity as a whole being on the wrong path that would be cut short by prescient AI. This would lend towards Quinn’s theory that Desmond is a tool being used by Leto II to manipulate events in the past that will aid him in setting up The Golden Path. Really enjoying that they are dragging the revelations out slowly. It makes for fun theorycrafting!
I found this spice agony SO COOL, and it made a lot of things start clicking for me. For the BG, the agony is basically a journey to the realm of the dead. The agony puts them just on the edge of death. Just enough to communicate with the dead ancestors within them. So basically this is a “ritual” that connects the worlds of the living and the dead, with the person undergoing the agony being the bridge. And then they have enough control to escape death at the last second. For the BG it is essentially dipping yourself in death, before returning to life (IF you survive). And afterwards the dead remain imprinted within you.
But there is no ghosts in Dune. There is zero afterlife (putting ghola aside). This is genetic memory, so these "ghosts" would be more like imprints, shades left behind.
@@LiraeNoir I agree, and I’m aware of this. I was speaking in a more symbolic or analogous sense. To them it’s a way to awaken ancestral memory. But if a human were to see this say in modern times or before, they would think it’s something like an afterlife. Or a realm of the dead like I said. It’s technically only happening in their mind, but nonetheless it allows the dead to speak and directly affect the living. In classic Dune fashion it is supernatural without being supernatural if you get what I mean. Which is a layer of the duniverse that I really like. Technically they are not ghost at all. But I mean, the dead do speak directly to the living in this ritual. So for all intents and purposes it is a bridge to a “realm of the dead” so to speak. Even if it may be purely scientific. They are not ghosts, but there would be only a technical difference between this and a “ghost” as we would define it to anyone witnessing it.
one thing unmentioned: why did the souls during the spice agony scene look like literal face dancers? That was kinda out there, but not sure why at all.
It sounds like they’re purposely confusing the prophecy with Desmond and the god emperor. Like the current bene geserit think the prophecy refers to Desmond, then end up having a revelation that the prophecy refers to the god emperor. Also curious if Desmond is going to be the first ixian kwizats attempt and they’re testing his abilities by sending him out into the imperium
The only thing I did not like about the episode was that pointless five minuet sex scene that featured a full on orgasm, like why did we need to see that?
Lmao they’re def trying to GOT it up a bit, and I gotta say it’s really the only thing I haven’t liked. The club and sex scenes like Quinn has said, really take me out of the show when they’re shown.
thought the exact same thing... could have shown the afterglow and accomplished much the same effect - "oh those two just did it and are in cahoots!" Politics, bedfellows... yea, we get it. Otherwise, a much better episode.
I’m trying to enjoy Dune Prophecy, but it’s suffering from the same problem a lot of recent genre shows have: too little plot spread over far too many characters.
There's a great thematic irony here: Valya sets herself against the inflexibility of the zealots when she was young. Now she finds herself unwilling to disrupt a plan long in the making, blindsiding her and costing her Kasha's life and ultimately access to the Emperor.
First, I want to say your breakdowns of this show so far are fantastic. I really appreciate your deeper insight on this. You're prediction last week about Desmond being a Ghola is one I'm all in on, if they decide to go that route. The story about the worm taking his eye and replacing it with a gift seems a bit far-fetched to me... But he may also not know he is a Ghola, so there's that ... Personally, I loved this episode. It really did a good job of showing, not telling, when it came to the agony. I love that we got to see a literal version of the struggle Alia deals with in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. The deeper cost of prescience and seeing an agony that didn't go well was really good. It's clear the BG are still finding their way as a culture, and it's interesting to see these early steps to what they become later on. Some background: I've only read the first 4 Frank Herbert dune books so far. But this show is really motivating me to dust off 5 and 6, since the BG have a much bigger role in that era of the story. Loving the show and loving your breakdowns! Thank you!!
I just realized that by killing Lila (if Lila doesnt come back) Dorothea essentially cut the BG off completely as far as we know from the founders' genetic memory. They either have to find a different relative, or they need to go in a different direction then what was originally intended because they wont have access any more to Raquella. Its interesting how much Dorothea is opposed to the order going toward what Raquella wanted. It makes me wonder if there could be a splinter group of BG that also connects with Desmond Hart.
Thank you for clarifying the Agony differences. That part was pretty confusing for me at first. Also I’ll be so upset is Desmond just ends up being some kind of robot or something
I'm thinking Desmond is the ancestor of the Fenrings. Either he'll change his name (to Fenring) or have children with someone (and they'll be named Fenring) who will stick very close to the emperor until the events of Dune
The episode would have made no sense without the last. Storytelling is done in layers. You need a good foundation to set the story on the right path. People today do not understand this. Same was said about the movies. Dune part one had to set the stage for Dune part 2. They were equal in greatness. Same with the first two episode of this.
I've really enjoyed both episodes so far. Although I find the Constantine scenes boring, the final balance is very positive for me. There's something I didn't understand about Lila's agony. From what I understand, it's assumed that by opening up to the "other memory" those ego-consciousnesses are only made up to the point where they gave birth to their children, but in Lila's scene they show that Dorotea does remember her death (showing her hatred for the Harkonens) but she should only remember up to the point where she gave birth to her daughter. There's a reason the concept is "Genetic memory".
I loved the ancestors scene. But not telling her who her other ancestor was definitely is gonna backfire😅. Although we know the BG don't get destroyed I wonder what the result will be. I'm wondering if Desmond ability is related to some secret nanotech 🤔. I don't know all Dune technology but can anyone tell me if Nanotechnology was ever within the Dune verse pre jihad? I'm thinking Mother Superior will teach other Sisters the voice as a result to help them tag team Desmond. We saw her voice somewhat worked so logically multiple should be able to complete the task.
i don't think the voice worked on him. He was messing with her. Also the fact that he resisted it makes me even more convinced that the bad guys are simply the surviving zealot sisters. I mean, they didnt kill all the zealots after murdering mama sister's daughter in episode 1 flashback right? Isn't the super old Sister/nurse the same woman from back then? and 1 of the leaders of the zealots?
@@SPIKESPIEGEL1969honestly I'm 50/50 on if it did work somewhat. I did believe he was playing with her initially but at the same time I feel it was his first time experiencing it so maybe it caught him off guard
There’s some real confusion regarding “Other Memories.” It’s not meant to be spiritual, there are no spirits of dead ancestors. The notion is a product of the 60s, when a popular theory held that memories were encoded at the genetic level (the planarian experiment in high school bio). Hence, whatever memories you inherit end at the time the sperm and egg that made you were produced. You wouldn’t see the death of someone who died after your mother was born. Even post-Chapterhouse, when the Sisters would “share” their memories to back themselves up, they would re-share later on so that the shared memories were up to date.
Happy about the agony scene and how they showed the possibility of possesion. I liked Desmond and him facing Alya. I just don't like Constantine Corrino. So far he is there to be handsome and very dumb by leaking info. I also don't like the Atreides but Im happy the rebellion is going down since it felt awkward but Im happy that the Fremen is actually a Bene Gesserit, nice touch.
There is a glaring plot hole that I’m seriously struggling with - what is the hasty rush to submit Lela, an unprepared acolyte, to the poison with the reasoning that she is the only one that can access Raquella’s memories? Valya and many other reverend mothers have had their genetic memories unlocked at this point and Valya in particular shared memories with Raquella on her deathbed! There are other ancestors in the sisterhood related to Raquella (including her mentioned grandmother that died at childbirth). It makes completely no sense why the sisters are in such panic and not aware of Raquella’s complete vision and thoughts, as it should already be in Bene Gesserit’s collective memory pool.
Your first video about Desmond being a ghola from the Tleilax stuck with me. I think it would make sense to introduce this here so they can have it in everything else. Very interesting to world build in the cinematic sphere since we can get Duncan back and not spend a bunch of time on it.
secret: all of the roles he played are all interconnected. They are all 1 universe. Desmond's great great great ancestor was the guy from Vikings! And his character from Raised by Wolves is an offshoot of the human species after the scattering. trust
Lila doesn't appear to be dead basing upon the preview for episode 3. I'm assuming she's in some sort of comatose state, or a state of near-death. I think the spice melange will be used in some way based on that scene where she's holding a small glass container with what appears to be spice mixed into some sort of solution.
The great thing about this story is it gives you a sense of how unimportant the events of our day may be when you look ahead tens of thousands of years. People like John Kennedy or Martin Luther or William the Conqueror may be all but forgotten.
"The key to the reckoning is one born twice: " That sounds like Paul. Isnt the reckoning going to happen in Letos' time? The discrption is of being born twice, the second time through what might be spice agony. Paul did not become the shortening of the way ( Kwisatz Haderach) until he endured the spice agony.
The power is just magic. It's hard to believe is technological because the whole memories from your mother is just magic, witness events you were not even present is magic, prophecy is just magic. Magic everywhere.
This episode was an improvement over the last. It's really, REALLY strange how both this show and the film seem to be allergic to showing us or even talking about the spacing Guild in any way whatsoever for the most part. It definitely existed at this time and was definitely as important as it is now. It's an intrinsic part of both the universe and its power structure. I'm also starting to think that perhaps this mystery character is either the robot Erasmus himself OR his human son. (who is the first mentat of what will become an entire order equal to other similar groups like Suk doctors and sword masters.)
I'm confounded as well, it's like the Guild Navigators are the elephant in the room! And it can't be because they are afraid of copying David Lynch or the miniseries. I think Denis Villeneuve and these writers genuinely have no clue how to present the Spacing Guild on screen for the general audience. In Frank Herbert's books their ways were very obscure, but they along with Mentats are the rising power in this period and I really really want to see the genesis of human society at this point in time that evolves away from technology/AI and into profound physiological, neurological and quantum control. It will be fascinating and I think the show is missing out on how much of a gem this is if they explored it in depth. Sure, maybe the average viewer won't get it, but Dune is meant to be thought provoking and philosophically engaging.
well the Rechese princess mentions the Guild during the sex scene. But that was it. I don't think in either Dune part 1/2 or this tv show, nobody has mentioned that the guild have a monopoly on space travel and like, there are no star wars space battles because the risk/cost is too great and great houses and the emperor risk losing their space traveling privileges if they ever do an attack in space that risks a guild high-liner. Which is 1 of the coolest dynamics in the legendarium. 1 day..
Even the calendar has been changed to AG, meaning After Guild. They are the most powerful faction, by far, and indeed are never to be seen. That's sad, although I doubt they could make the next movies with Guild involvement.
I think "The path too short" refers to accessing male ancestral memory, with a corollary "path too long" referring to the female ancestral memory, implying that the "Golden path" is obtained dialectically when the two are both accessible.
A revenant is a creature that has returned from death. I think that bit is being skipped by a lot folks. That could also apply Paul, Leto and Desmond. Interesting
I assumed Desmond was just playing along with the voice tbh. Don’t think he was affected at all. The shaking was overdramatic. That’s how I viewed it anyway…
I love how they got the mysticism of Dune out there and treated it seriously. Imagine Alia as a baby going through this with Baron Vladimir haunting her.
Won't happen. They're clearly setting up a Paul-Alia reversal in Part Three, otherwise Paul killing the Baron makes no sense. Villeneuve will likely be butchering the source material once more
@@humbleopulenceSo much salt & no spice. Denis is not doing Children of Dune. Alia’s possession by Baron can still be handled. Alia is Paul’s sister and Baron’s granddaughter after all.
Alia would only see female ancestors
@tarikbrowne Alia wasn't just a Reverend Mother able to see the female line, she was the preborn sister of a Kwisach Haderack, Paul, as was his equal as were the twins Leto & Ghanima.
Which makes me wonder if Desmond has become a sort of spice generated KH, who is possessed.
Ghoula makes no sense as they still have to go through a childhood once created.
Ixian tech is a definite maybe too.
The KH idea could work well as against BGs, as it could then explain why they think a KH is possible, but they want one they can control. Desmond cannot be controlled but could open their eyes to how powerful a KH could be if created and controlled by the BG.
Desmond came straight from last episode of Raised by wolves 😂
Right?! Lol thats all I could think of
navigating the galaxy in his space ship builted by Floki
Travis is a good darn actor.
Yep...
Dude I said the same thing! 😂
Your approval of the show is the most important one. I actually enjoyed it, they are threading with the original Herbert concepts and trying to sideline the Brian contribution. Hope that continues.
That was my biggest concern
Minus the butlerian jihad being more Brian
@@maciedixon3983it's true but it was short. It's definitely not expanded in the first Dune so we will see if they touch on the underlying themes like *counterfeiting a human mind*
“On a path too short”. Reminds me of the kwisatz Haderach which means “shortening of the way”. Maybe Desmond Hart is some kind of primitive flawed failed kwisatz Haderach that inspires the Bene Gesserit to undergo the breeding program.
@@awesomehpt8938 No. You’re just desperately trying to fill in gaps that aren’t even there, in a show/story that shouldn’t be here.
They're already doing the breeding program.
@@MrEnjoivolcom1 the goals of the program could evolve over time
The Proto KH!
@@MinhFong-p6m Lame.
The horror elements in this episode were really well done. I was intrigued by that part.
the spider-like Benegesserit crawling along the columns in Lila’s Agony trial was amazing, gave me chills.
I think Desmond just played along with Valya. He could resist the voice from the get go.
Yes, I was thinking that too. He just pretended to obey.
so insane how big this channel is now compared to 2016.. much luv, glad to see the success you have found
Well said!
Something about Constantine is setting off alarm bells. Ynez tells a story about rebels kidnapping her and Constantine when they were children. Their father covered it up and Constantine never talks about it - could he have been compromised somehow?
Constantine was in the palace when the child burned and earlier he was ALSO in the house of the BG where Kasha later died - could he have planted a device somewhere which activated when she was near? Perhaps working in conjunction with Desmond (with or without his knowledge) or even using him as a scapegoat. He definitely let that information about Desmond slip on purpose. There's more to him and he's being played as a careless secondary character to lull us into dismissing him.
What i don’t get about him is why he’s not in the line. Just cause he’s a bastard. Technically so is Paul. 😊
I don’t think she died just yet bc in the previews for upcoming episodes shows her with some kind of device over her mouth with someone saying she’s close to death.
She's 100% not dead. She's comatose. The preview for Ep3 she's her on a medical bed with monitoring stuff on her face and they say, "she may never wake up".
If you're watching shows on MAX you can ffw the end credits to see the previews for next week.
Lila?
Like some Chosen One after his hubris left him burning on the shores of a volcanic planet 😉
Yes. She is seemingly catatonic currently. They show the Sisters attempting to “revive” her
I hope not her story arc and character is drawing to any scene she’s in . Very surprised how good this has been imo
"Born once in blood and once in spice" sounds like surviving the Agony of Spice to me...
Sounds like a direct reference to Paul Atreides to me. This is the Kwisatz Haderach prophecy. I wish someone could make a supercut of all the times in the movies that the female voices talk to Paul in visions. Because they tell the full story and directly connect to the prophecy in episode 2 of this show. At the end of Dune Part One during the Jamis fight, the voices say to Paul something like “Paul Atreides must die for Kwisatz Haderach to rise”, and then “if you take a life, you take your own” before Paul proceeds to kill him. So killing Jamis was Paul taking his own life, aka his blood life. Which directly sets him on a path to be reborn in the spice, and fully become the one. You hear the same voices again in Dune Part 2 during Paul’s spice agony. Right before he rises you hear them say “Kwisatz Haderach, climb up, rise!”. So now with the context of this show, we can imagine all of the ancestors anointing Paul as the prophesied one, as he escapes the agony.
Paul is also a weapon born of war as was also said during the agony. The circumstances that allow him to become the one are the war on Arrakis. And if we take the “if you take a life, you take your own” line even further. We could infer that all the time he spent killing in the war was just a way to kill the Paul we knew in part one more and more. Making more and more room for Kwisatz Haderach to fill in. The Kwisatz Haderach (Paul) WAS a weapon born of war at the end of the day.
I kinda perceived it as pointing at Desmond Hart. The one who was born as a human and reborn after being swallowed by Shai Hulud.
It was about Desmond.
@@king_supreme1102maybe you should create a video. You can use this same concept. Voiceovers with snippets of the series and books
@EMPERORSPROTECTION-TERRA4LIFE Well, it can be interpreted as being about Paul and/or Leto II. But an easy in-show answer is Desmond.
Yeah it's moving along better than I expected. The production looks really really good and the writing is good. I keep comparing this to The Acolyte and wow... what a difference. 1/3 of the budget too.
Tell me why I was so excited the Acolyte when it was first announced only to be so disappointed ☹️
I feel like some of the acting is questionable, and the music was a bit over the top. I am enjoying the plot so far though and the set/costume design is very nice
It’s not perfect. Could have done without the bar scene and the jihad was more Brian then frank. Like it otherwise
I can’t believe I didn’t think of this before but I think this theory may be right so POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD…in the books the sorceresses of Rossak who inspired Raquella to found the sisterhood, and much of the sorceresses themselves joined the sisterhood, had the ability to boil the thinking machine’s brains with their telekinetic abilities. I think Desmond is the son of one of the last remaining sorceresses which means he actually does have this telekinetic ability. I think not only him but Jenn has this ability as well and she was actually the one to kill Kasha. Jenn is saying more and more that insinuates she does not agree with The Sisterhood and is probably working as an agent from the inside with Desmond. Majority of the sorceresses joined the The Sisterhood in very early days, and unfortunately much of them died off but I believe some never joined and remained on Rossak. Perhaps this is where Desmond came from and perhaps Jenn is related to him.
Absolutely no idea how he survived that worm tho
I rewatched the episode. In the final scene, Desmond says "Ive always wondered what you would fear" to Valya. That's something you say to someone you already know. We've already seen Dorotea show agency over Lila during the Agony. What if Dorotea is behind Desmond somehow?
Doratea tells Lila that she is her grandmother and that Lila's mother is not there in the genetic memory. That means Lila's mother is alive. Desmond having familiarity with Valya suggests he knows her. Whatever he is, Doratea's daughter/Lila's mother is the one pulling Desmond's strings
Maybe the overall arc of the show is about a reformation in the sisterhood, a process moved by external factors that moves the sisterhood itself to reforge their order/strategy/beliefs consolidating them as the Bene Gesserit that we come to see in Dune.
Frank Herbert would be proud of this. They absolutely nailed Spice Agony and Other Memories' Possession.
It looks awesome and I agree FH would have liked seeing his work with so much production value. That said some important details of the source material aren't being respected very well so far. Namely how the girl shouldn't have had memories of her mother's death because that's not how genetic memory works... memories are only passed up until the point of conception in Dune lore.
This weird fantasy interpretation creates the potential for a LOT of plotholes. Villeneuve made the same mistake with prescience in Dune Part 2 and it's diluting the sci-fi too much.
@@spacewombat4569 Lila's Mother was not even present in the memories. It was her grandmother.
Tula is a master manipulator just like Valya. Don't fall for her sensitive motherly attitude. Her first lesson to acolytes was literally about "lies". She probably lied to Lila about how she could find her mother in her memories so that she would "willingly" undergo the Agony.
They literally showed her mother being murdered in the memory
@@Christo_Trismegistus Doratea is her Grandmother.
@Christo_Trismegistus that was her grandmother. She even days somthing about how her mother isn't here and is that what they told you to get you to do this.
"Path too short", sounds like the "Shortening Of The Way" a reference to the Kwizatz Haderach
Thought the same
My fan theory about what Desmond Hart is (possible spoilers, unless I'm totally wrong of course. I've read all of Frank Herbert's books and most of Brian's/KJA's but not Sisterhood of Dune):
****Possible spoilers****
I think he might be a "false" Kwisatz Haderach. Remember how when Paul and others are tested with the Gom Jabar it's mentioned the reason they conduct these tests is because there have been disasters in the past when males were gifted with prescience? I think Desmond may be the first of those and explains both why he's so confused about his powers and why the Sisterhood have no clue how to deal with him or how he fits into the prophecy. Somehow, when he was swallowed by the sandworm he may have been exposed to their bile (or at least a weakened form since it wasn't drowned) and was connected to any latent potential he had, possibly through Bene Gesserit ancestors. He mentions in this episode being able to see what the Sisters cannot see and there's a lot of parallels in the structure of the episode between him and what Lila goes through as part of the Agony and Other Memory.
He could still be a ghola too, but I think that's less likely since if the Tleilaxu have the genetic record of someone massively powerful like Desmond I feel like we would've seen them use and splice that into a lot more gholas and creations in the future books. As for the Sister's prophecy, I think they're still seeing the far future with Paul and the rise of the God-Emperor, but they are misinterpreting that as the threat rather than something now that threatens the Sisterhood's current existence (which would prevent Leto's Golden Path from coming to fruition and thus endangering all of humanity). In this early version of their prophecy they see the tyrant as the threat rather than threats that would block the tyrant's rise to power. They haven't mentioned the Kwisatz Haderach in this show yet so it's possible they're still flying very blind.
Again, just my thoughts and a fan theory that popped into my head as I was watching the show. I take no credit if this turns out to be wrong by the very next episode. But if I'm right? I expect my check in the mail. 😎
Interesting theory.
@manasvenraina351 Thanks! I could be totally off (probably totally off), but it jumped into my head while I was watching and I'm glad the show got my noggin going.
That would be wild - I think the idea would be an entertaining one.
What's this with the bile exposure and surviving that worm devouring him though? How, you think??
@justinklenk Still an unkown at this point, but maybe his awakening gave him a similar ability to neutralize poisons as the Bene Gesserit have? If one of his ancestors was a Sister they could have jumped in as his consciousness was fading and helped him maybe? As for surviving the rest of the worm eating him I'm still trying to figure that part out. 🤷♂️
if Desmond had been poisoned by the sand worm water of life, he should get Eyes of Ibad, don't you think ?
I really hope they are talking about Leto II and not Desmond. That would be so dope.
Could still be cool if the Bene Gesserit think it’s Desmond but are wrong, and blunder, because Raquella is in fact referring to Leto II
Yea, Im moving closer to the idea that Raquella sensed Leto because they insist with the word Tyranny or Tyrant and we know thats our god boy
Yes it would be very interesting, but one thing doesn't sit right with me - how could she see him or sense him? Even Paul didn't know that he would have a son, he was that powerful, so how could one of the first reverend mother see it?
@@wodara9236 fair enough, in the end I think the tyrant part is going to be a vague reference and Arafel, as Leto II forsaw it, must be a prescient machine of some sort.
@@Diogolindir the glowing eyes makes me believe it's a prescient machine. They were very machine-like.
Just because the Tleilaxu make gholas from corpses doesn't mean that they can't also make a clone from a living person, or make multiple clones. Maybe Desmond is just a regular clone. And there could be more than one.
I don't think Desmond can resist the Voice as he does everything she says up until the blade would kill him. I think he might be conditioned to do no harm to himself or sort of a protection of this technology.
that makes so much sense
Is that something the Bene Tleilaxu can do, if he even _is_ a Tleilaxu creation?
@@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45 they can absolutely mindfuck a ghola they they've created
Desmond doing his best impression of Rasputin.
Never heard of Dune before the Villeneuve movies, never read the books, have watched hours of content on this channel.
That being said, I find myself constantly craving more of the Dune universe and this has currently satisfied that craving lol. It’s early but I think these first 2 episodes are very promising. This stuff is fascinating.
Same. I’m going to have to eventually read the books though ha ha
read the books! They are good!
You ought to start reading the books. Just go with the audio books
Feels like Travis Fimmel is literally playing the same character from Raised by Wolves
I like the show too. My thought on "path too short" - it is reference to golden path. Like someone wants the same thing as Bene Gesserit, but wants to take a shortcut.
Thanks Quinn, nice review. I went from feeling a bit "hmm, ok this is interesting" to "I'm hooked" after the second one.
Desmond has white eyes despite 12 tours on Arriakis? I think he is a tool of the AI. The omen seems to back that up.
One question raised in this episode: Did/does Tula know that Valya murdered Theodora? Why would Tula lie to Lila about the circumstances of her mother's death if she knew full well that there was a good chance she was about to "meet" her mother and learn otherwise? Lila knew what Valya had done for the few moments she survived the agony, but did any other living person know?
I loved the agony scene and representation of genetic memory in this episode. I liked it way more than how Jessica’s spice agony was portrayed in the movie. The image of Lila being overwhelmed by thousands upon thousands of egos of her ancestors in a dark claustrophobic but also unending corridors. Combined with the clothing design and vfx making them look like literal ghost. Just superbly weird, it visually got the idea across, and it was closer to how I pictured it while reading the books.
Solid 9/10 for me. The revelation of Bene Gesserit spies e v e r y w h e r e is chef's kiss. The other memory scene was horrific - i loved it, the parallels to Lila being possessed by her grandparent just like Alia would be 10,000 years later. I think Raquella's prophecy definitely relates to Desmond, although it could also be about Leto II. I still think ghola, or perhaps he's become a proto-Kwisatz Haderach through his experience with the worm, and his existence is what makes the Bene Gesserit reconsider their goal of a sister on the throne (maybe he's the reason they use the Gom Jabbar to sift people in the future). There seems to be something going on with Desmond's right eye throughout the episode though.
Something i dont see anyone talking about is Lila's ancestry. She was told that her mother died giving birth ... But grandmother (Dorotea) said during the agony that her mother "is not here." Which makes me think mothers death is a lie.
If thats true, this is important. When offered a way out by Tula, "We'll just have to look for other options" ... Perhaps Lila isnt the only one they could attempt Agony with. Mother could be out there. Perhaps hard to reach, or someone who has gone rogue / anti Bene Gesseret (after learning about Valya killing Dorotea?).
Or ... And this would be nuts ... But Mikaela, the sister assigned to the rebels, is her mother?
I suspect Raquella's line will continue to be central to the show, and is perhaps the one rhing Brian Herbert wanted to influence (for better or worse).
great theory and very thought provoking, but someone doesn't have to be dead to be in their other memories. The Baron vladamir harkonnen was still alive when Paul atreides drank the worm juice/agony, and baron was right there 2 generations back.
SPOILERS FOR THE FUTURE DUNE MOVIES AND DUNE PART 3 BELOW:
PAUL was not possessed and overtaken by him the way his sister was, but the baron was there.
@SPIKESPIEGEL1969 two thoughts:
1) is the Spice Agony identical to this primitive form with the Rossack poison?
2) What could it mean for Dorotea to say "your mother isn't here" then? The mother is dead but not present among the vast sea of past generations because ...? I really don't think you bother to write that in the script without it hinting to some larger purpose.
@@PatrickGann yeah there certainly is something going on there. we'll have to see how it goes. possibly just an inconsistency on their parts. or its also possible I am wrong.
Pretty solid episode. My only real complaint was with Valya interrogating Desmond. Specifically, that he's never asked how he did it. I can do some hand-waving at it I suppose but it seemed like an obvious thing to ask and it just wasn't. That was the only thing in the writing that bugged me this episode, it was pretty good otherwise.
There's the whole "scene that went on too long" but it's HBO and well...(s)exposition is to be expected with HBO almost like it's a rule with any show from them. It was the nighclub scene from the 1stt episode essentially and I think we should just expect one per episode.
The HBO Sexposition Dump™ is a time-honored tactic to get eyes on "childish" genre fare like fantasy and sci-fi, but it always runs the risk of cheapening a production. It'd be a shame if being Hot TV Dune That Fucks™ overshadows the actual story in the discourse.
@@QBG There should be more fucking in every genre. What else are we paying all these pretty people for?
This episode was so much better than the first one, hopefully they get better and not worse.
My theory on Dune: Prophecy, particularly Desmond. (As of Ep 2)
Desmond is a herald, not a prophet. As a consequence of Sisterhood's over-reach, weaking the emperor, he has died and been reborn, strolled up to the palace, disheveled and gotten a job, then murdered the Emperor's advisor and a child-groom (representing the infantilised child the Sisterhood have turned the Emperor into). All a result of the Sisterhood. Desmond's character is complex but (being meta here) he functions an avatar of Death (change and transformation), and gets sucked into things only to a play pivotal role in balancing the scales.
Also, I am picking up major Romance of the Three Kingdoms vibes, particularly the early chapters with the collapse of the Han Dynasty (Corrino) as a result of the Eunuchs (Sisterhood) corruption, causing a fanatical rebellion as a result of the peasants starving, which is eventually quelled by He Jin (Desmond), until he his eventually assassinated in the palace by the Eunuchs who are then put to death by his subordinates...leading to the collapse of the Eastern Han Dynasty and decades of civil war.
Regarding him being a potential face dancer or ghola, I can't speak on that..HOWEVER. I have been reading about mind control; manufacturing identity, false memories etc. "He's telling the truth, so much as believes it." - While this may be the ladies standard manipulation to inspire doubt, it's very likely true. Desmond almost seemed lost when Valya asked about where he came from. If you are provided a false identity and false memories, you really do believe them to be true. Your identity, memories and beliefs frame your common sense experience. Imagine Kuze in Ghost in the Shell, now think of the 2017 movie and the guy who gets arrested and believes he has a kid... both represent two sides of the same coin.
Connecting to Travis Fimmel's other characters, particularly Ragnar of Vikings (whose characterisation is fused with the myths of Odin) who was a highly manipulative leader, constantly concerned with fate, like Odin, fundamentally brings about the destruction of the world around him (even after his death). He is an aspect of Death, while the Sisterhood/Bene Gesseret function as aspects of Birth. Connecting to Raised with Wolves you get a similar thing, a man pretending to be someone he is not.
Desmond, functionally does not serve the Imperium any more than he serves the Sisterhood, he simply recognises the bigger threat, suffers directly from their actions and is reborn anew, determined to help the underdog. Despite the mystery and complexity of his character, in the grand scheme of things, he is the serpent in the garden (devoured by Shai Hulud, the Great Worm/Wyrm), he purpose is to elevate consciousness, balance the scales. In this narrative, the Sisterhood have infantilised the Emperor, in other narratives, they would be oppressed heavily. In a standard romance, where both are equal, Desmond would be the outright villain.
All in all, trying to understand is like to figure out Leonardo DiCaprio's true identity in Shutter Island: the more you look, the less sense any previous idea will make. Think like a prescient, recognise his purpose as a herald of a new dawn, an agent of death; one who brings change and transformation.
PS. if you're wondering why he doesn't follow Valya's command, it could be more than technology. He simply tells the truth. Truth is not threatened by lies, lies are always threatened by truth. He recognises that everything she says is a manipulation designed to disempower and destroy you, he fully understands this and her motivations. Consider that the power is not in technology, but understanding. Most people hear Valya, Desmond can see her. The show is being told from the perspective of a Harkonnen that says their greatest weapon is the lie. The show is told from the perspective of the Third Reich, The Sith, Voldemort and Wyrmtongue. If you can't see that, you'll not recognise the story is being told from the perspective of the villains.
Peace, prosperity and prescience.
you crammed in so many references to other series
As a fellow nerd, this is the best response.
If you wait until the end credits of the episode the trailer for the next episode plays. And there was a clip of Lila with some kind of breathing apparatus on like maybe she’s in a coma? And you see Tula with a cup of golden liquid. Possibly spice to try and save her? Maybe this also leads them to using spice instead of Rossack poison. Which would cause another dynamic if she lives where Lila knows that her great grandmother was killed by the rev mother
i just posted a similiar thought :). your post is better written . :)
I enjoyed this episode more than the first. I like how things are moving forward and I am also very intrigued by the mystery of Desmond and his abilities. The fact he can resist the Voice really surprised me and excited me to see what's gonna happen next. I wonder what is gonna happen to Kieran because while he wants to help the Rebellion he has feelings for the Princess, and will he get outed or find a way to keep what he's been up to a secret? I wonder how things are gonna turn out for him since, unless we meet other Atreides offspring we have to assume the line of House Atreides that goes to Duke Leto and Paul goes through Kieran.
vorian atreides was basically genghis khan in this universe, his spawn is everywhere, he anchor beings the timeline. the house of atreides main characters the whole series, now newly established at caladan. also, lila is a descendant of reverend mother raquella who was the granddaughter of vorian atreides.
There has to be many other Atreides.
They are a ruling house in the Dune universe, the lord of a ruling house does not work as a servant in the Emperor's household, Keiran will be some distant cousin of the actual ruling part of House Atreides.
Maybe he is the Bene Tleilax kwisatz haderach. Probably not, just a thought that occurred to me watching today’s episode.
Given Scytale mentioned they made one between book 1 and 2 and he killed himself the show runners might want to borrow this. Villeneuve doesn't like too much exposition so he will probably not include this info in Messiah
Yes that one scene that was a bit too long, I thought it was unnecessary but then I remembered it’s very Heretics/Chapterhouse core 🌚 I was just waiting for her to say “my hands are fire”
I don’t think Desmond was worried if the voice was going to work on him, I think he was just fucking with Valya. He even says something to that effect afterwards, he was testing her, and she feared he “didn’t care what she said”.
Like with the Prince he killed, Desmond again seems to get agitated or drained after burning people for a bit.
The Voice Simply did not work on him. U r right. He was playing her and she looked pretty bad.
This is possibly unrelated, but Travis Fimmel, the actor playing Desmond Hart is wearing a contact in his right eye. You can tell there’s like an orange blotch in the blue. And he has very pure piercing blue eyes. You can really tell he’s wearing a contact in one eye in the first episode. I kind of like the idea that Quinn proposed. Possible Cymek. That would explain how he easily caught the robot lizard. Which I thought was really well done! That lizard was beautiful.
To me he wasn't aware of the Voice, and was surprised by the whole thing. That's how I saw his face, and that would be consistent with general knowledge, the Voice even in the time of Paul is a well guarded secret. Hell, even Thufir doesn't really know about it.
@@xHarpyx Thankyou! I had noticed this but wasn't sure if it was just something about the actor or if intentional for the character.
Agreed about Valya!
My current theory is that Desmond Hart actually didn’t kill Reverend Mother Kasha. How would his power work across the galaxy. The emperor made A point to mention this. But….if there was a second ghola….? I think the acolyte Jen killed Kasha, and is a also a ghola with the same ability as Hart
It's official I love this show. So much in this episode love that I think this is the first time we've ever really got to see what it's like when someone accesses their ancestral memories. Beautifully done. I especially love that how when you awaken those ancestral memories if there's anything people have told you that are not quite true you're going to discover them.😊😊
I'm honestly leaning towards Desmond Hart being a Tleilaxu creation. He has to be some sort of Ghola-like experiment.
I'm cautiously optimistic about the show so far.
It strikes me that part of what is being set up for the BGs is that they are uncovering this prophecy which actually speaks about Leto II and they are mistaking it as referring to their current situation. Realizing that mistake seems like the thing they must learn to reorient their objectives and priorities toward their Dune-time-period institutional structure. Alternately (or in parallel), it may be a warning about either the final assault of the Honored Matres that cripples the sisterhood, or even about the threat of a return of the thinking machines that at least the Brian/Kevin retcon of books 7 and 8 imply Leto was trying to prepare against. Either way, I think they are mistaking a project about a distant threat as describing their immediate threat and they have to figure that out.
The words of the girl who died during the Agony showed just how ambiguous prophecies can be. To me, it sounded more like she was referring to Paul or Leto II, than Desmond Hart.
Agreed
Hart v Reverend hooked me for the next episode.
Im so curious how he fits
Where is the Emperor's wife from? Should she call the worms "Shai-Hulud"?
I was wondering the same thing! It’s an odd choice of words for a non-Fremen
@@ashleighparker4623 is it me or does she look Fremenish?
@She mentioned in Ep1 she’s a descendant of a branch of Zensunni wanderers (which are the ancestors of the Fremen).
So if she’s not specifically Fremen, she has a cultural tie to them. I like that they’ve subtly conveyed this at multiple points in these first 2 episodes.
@@Ian-MTwhen did it mention this
I'm loving this show thus far. But I think some of the more critical opinions are based in sheer impatience. Dune is not meant for the impatient.
Yea, Im sure is not going to be THAT popular but not because the show is bad. More like Dune demands attention
Glad to know each episode will last an extra 20-25 minutes, thanks Quinn
The mother didn’t say Desmond was telling the truth. She said that he wasn’t lying.
I wonder if Desmond was playing Valya. I wonder if he was never under the influence of the voice and was just building her up to let her down. 😂😂😂
12:00 I might be mistaken but I also believe it's stated in the original books by frank herbert that the Voice cannot override the most primal instinct of humans, like you can order someone to give you their gun but not to shoot themselves
so the show is contradicting itself? Because it sure worked on Mama Reverend mother's daughter, the zealot.
The movies made the Voice way too strong. It's Jedi mind control, only worse. The show might follow in those footsteps.
If the mother superior wanted to kill him, she could just have stroke his hand when he was resisting, pushing the blade into the throat. Or more in line with the books, she could have poisoned him, or used a mix of influences, lies and Voice to have a few palace guards do the dirty work for her.
Yes the Voice is strong, but in a very short or very oblique way. Jessica couldn't have survived their desert trip if the Harkonens soldiers weren't undisciplined rapey thugs in the first place, and she spent probably a few hours studying and listening to them.
The sisters’ belief that arafel is upon them could parallel a tendency I personally have observed among evangelical Christian’s sects to believe that the end times are constantly upon them. It’s a pattern they’ve displayed over 100 years pointing to a certain ‘current’ event and claiming it fulfills a particular prophecy.
It’s possible the sisters are making a similar mistake with Raquella’s words. They think it is happening in their time when it can just as easily be referring to events 10,000 years in the future.
I also wonder if “a path too short” isn’t a hint towards humanity as a whole being on the wrong path that would be cut short by prescient AI. This would lend towards Quinn’s theory that Desmond is a tool being used by Leto II to manipulate events in the past that will aid him in setting up The Golden Path.
Really enjoying that they are dragging the revelations out slowly. It makes for fun theorycrafting!
I found this spice agony SO COOL, and it made a lot of things start clicking for me. For the BG, the agony is basically a journey to the realm of the dead. The agony puts them just on the edge of death. Just enough to communicate with the dead ancestors within them. So basically this is a “ritual” that connects the worlds of the living and the dead, with the person undergoing the agony being the bridge. And then they have enough control to escape death at the last second. For the BG it is essentially dipping yourself in death, before returning to life (IF you survive). And afterwards the dead remain imprinted within you.
But there is no ghosts in Dune. There is zero afterlife (putting ghola aside). This is genetic memory, so these "ghosts" would be more like imprints, shades left behind.
@@LiraeNoir I agree, and I’m aware of this. I was speaking in a more symbolic or analogous sense. To them it’s a way to awaken ancestral memory. But if a human were to see this say in modern times or before, they would think it’s something like an afterlife. Or a realm of the dead like I said. It’s technically only happening in their mind, but nonetheless it allows the dead to speak and directly affect the living. In classic Dune fashion it is supernatural without being supernatural if you get what I mean. Which is a layer of the duniverse that I really like. Technically they are not ghost at all. But I mean, the dead do speak directly to the living in this ritual. So for all intents and purposes it is a bridge to a “realm of the dead” so to speak. Even if it may be purely scientific. They are not ghosts, but there would be only a technical difference between this and a “ghost” as we would define it to anyone witnessing it.
It seems, based on the after the show video, that Lila is not dead but put into some kind of state...
Lila is not dead (yet?). If you look at the preview for the next episode, apparently they'll use spice to try to bring her back
one thing unmentioned: why did the souls during the spice agony scene look like literal face dancers? That was kinda out there, but not sure why at all.
The empress calling the worm Shai-Halud seems like foreshadowing of some interesting backstory for her
I hope so, because It seems weird to me How important things that people did not know 10000 years later seem to be known by every character....
@@PeregrinoPotiguarI agree. How did she know it was called that
The spice must flow.
It sounds like they’re purposely confusing the prophecy with Desmond and the god emperor. Like the current bene geserit think the prophecy refers to Desmond, then end up having a revelation that the prophecy refers to the god emperor. Also curious if Desmond is going to be the first ixian kwizats attempt and they’re testing his abilities by sending him out into the imperium
This episode ramped things up so much, it was insane. I enjoyed the first episode but this was something else
The only thing I did not like about the episode was that pointless five minuet sex scene that featured a full on orgasm, like why did we need to see that?
Going for all the Game of Thrones talking points I guess
Lmao they’re def trying to GOT it up a bit, and I gotta say it’s really the only thing I haven’t liked. The club and sex scenes like Quinn has said, really take me out of the show when they’re shown.
Tbf that’s something Frank himself would enjoy. Man was fairly perverted. God Emperor has worm horn e posting
thought the exact same thing... could have shown the afterglow and accomplished much the same effect - "oh those two just did it and are in cahoots!" Politics, bedfellows... yea, we get it. Otherwise, a much better episode.
I was already expecting something like this because it is a hbo series, but that was so long that I had to skip.😂
I’m trying to enjoy Dune Prophecy, but it’s suffering from the same problem a lot of recent genre shows have: too little plot spread over far too many characters.
There's a great thematic irony here: Valya sets herself against the inflexibility of the zealots when she was young. Now she finds herself unwilling to disrupt a plan long in the making, blindsiding her and costing her Kasha's life and ultimately access to the Emperor.
First, I want to say your breakdowns of this show so far are fantastic. I really appreciate your deeper insight on this. You're prediction last week about Desmond being a Ghola is one I'm all in on, if they decide to go that route. The story about the worm taking his eye and replacing it with a gift seems a bit far-fetched to me... But he may also not know he is a Ghola, so there's that ...
Personally, I loved this episode. It really did a good job of showing, not telling, when it came to the agony. I love that we got to see a literal version of the struggle Alia deals with in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. The deeper cost of prescience and seeing an agony that didn't go well was really good. It's clear the BG are still finding their way as a culture, and it's interesting to see these early steps to what they become later on.
Some background: I've only read the first 4 Frank Herbert dune books so far. But this show is really motivating me to dust off 5 and 6, since the BG have a much bigger role in that era of the story. Loving the show and loving your breakdowns! Thank you!!
I just realized that by killing Lila (if Lila doesnt come back) Dorothea essentially cut the BG off completely as far as we know from the founders' genetic memory. They either have to find a different relative, or they need to go in a different direction then what was originally intended because they wont have access any more to Raquella.
Its interesting how much Dorothea is opposed to the order going toward what Raquella wanted. It makes me wonder if there could be a splinter group of BG that also connects with Desmond Hart.
Thank you for clarifying the Agony differences. That part was pretty confusing for me at first. Also I’ll be so upset is Desmond just ends up being some kind of robot or something
They better end up explaining the powers of Ragnar in some satisfying way and not do what "True Detective" does every season...
I'm thinking Desmond is the ancestor of the Fenrings. Either he'll change his name (to Fenring) or have children with someone (and they'll be named Fenring) who will stick very close to the emperor until the events of Dune
Prophecy is just Mean Girls in space
Stop pulling our dicks!
lmfao
Only to an immature mind. There is a whole lot going on here. You just go "low" with it all.
I Hope ixians will be present in future episodes
12:45 She could've pushed his in to the deed would have been done, but we need four more episodes.
This epsiode was an improvement to the last. Cant wait to see more of Desmond
The episode would have made no sense without the last. Storytelling is done in layers. You need a good foundation to set the story on the right path. People today do not understand this. Same was said about the movies. Dune part one had to set the stage for Dune part 2. They were equal in greatness. Same with the first two episode of this.
I've really enjoyed both episodes so far.
Although I find the Constantine scenes boring, the final balance is very positive for me.
There's something I didn't understand about Lila's agony. From what I understand, it's assumed that by opening up to the "other memory" those ego-consciousnesses are only made up to the point where they gave birth to their children, but in Lila's scene they show that Dorotea does remember her death (showing her hatred for the Harkonens) but she should only remember up to the point where she gave birth to her daughter. There's a reason the concept is "Genetic memory".
I loved the ancestors scene. But not telling her who her other ancestor was definitely is gonna backfire😅. Although we know the BG don't get destroyed I wonder what the result will be.
I'm wondering if Desmond ability is related to some secret nanotech 🤔. I don't know all Dune technology but can anyone tell me if Nanotechnology was ever within the Dune verse pre jihad?
I'm thinking Mother Superior will teach other Sisters the voice as a result to help them tag team Desmond. We saw her voice somewhat worked so logically multiple should be able to complete the task.
i don't think the voice worked on him. He was messing with her. Also the fact that he resisted it makes me even more convinced that the bad guys are simply the surviving zealot sisters. I mean, they didnt kill all the zealots after murdering mama sister's daughter in episode 1 flashback right? Isn't the super old Sister/nurse the same woman from back then? and 1 of the leaders of the zealots?
@@SPIKESPIEGEL1969honestly I'm 50/50 on if it did work somewhat. I did believe he was playing with her initially but at the same time I feel it was his first time experiencing it so maybe it caught him off guard
There’s some real confusion regarding “Other Memories.” It’s not meant to be spiritual, there are no spirits of dead ancestors. The notion is a product of the 60s, when a popular theory held that memories were encoded at the genetic level (the planarian experiment in high school bio). Hence, whatever memories you inherit end at the time the sperm and egg that made you were produced. You wouldn’t see the death of someone who died after your mother was born. Even post-Chapterhouse, when the Sisters would “share” their memories to back themselves up, they would re-share later on so that the shared memories were up to date.
I don’t think the prophecy is referring to Desmond Hart, but the show wants you to think it is.
Man I was so excited to see your analysis of this episode. I can’t wait for Tuesday when you go more in depth.
Happy about the agony scene and how they showed the possibility of possesion. I liked Desmond and him facing Alya. I just don't like Constantine Corrino. So far he is there to be handsome and very dumb by leaking info. I also don't like the Atreides but Im happy the rebellion is going down since it felt awkward but Im happy that the Fremen is actually a Bene Gesserit, nice touch.
i'm not digging the atreides being a traitor. kinda goes against their whole dealio if u feel me
@@SPIKESPIEGEL1969 maybe, yea. The Atreides "traits" are something the BG cultivates over the centuries.
There is a glaring plot hole that I’m seriously struggling with - what is the hasty rush to submit Lela, an unprepared acolyte, to the poison with the reasoning that she is the only one that can access Raquella’s memories? Valya and many other reverend mothers have had their genetic memories unlocked at this point and Valya in particular shared memories with Raquella on her deathbed! There are other ancestors in the sisterhood related to Raquella (including her mentioned grandmother that died at childbirth).
It makes completely no sense why the sisters are in such panic and not aware of Raquella’s complete vision and thoughts, as it should already be in Bene Gesserit’s collective memory pool.
Your first video about Desmond being a ghola from the Tleilax stuck with me. I think it would make sense to introduce this here so they can have it in everything else. Very interesting to world build in the cinematic sphere since we can get Duncan back and not spend a bunch of time on it.
I’m just glad that Travis Fimmel gets to reprise his role from Raised by Wolves 😉
secret: all of the roles he played are all interconnected. They are all 1 universe. Desmond's great great great ancestor was the guy from Vikings! And his character from Raised by Wolves is an offshoot of the human species after the scattering. trust
Desmond is by far the most interesting character in the show.
Still can't get my head around, as Emperor Corrino stated, how Des burned two people at once in different parts of the universe.
Indeed. I suspect this was a Desmond lie, and something else is at play.
Im invested enough. if nothing else i'll watch for Mark Stong's costuming which is amazzing.
its looks really nice!
I was admiring it as well. The costuming dept have done themselves proud overall with this show but with the Emperors fits especially.
if you could get a uniform just like his for halloween, would you wear it? Or, wear it to the office? I sure would ha!
The drip must flow
Lila’ Death : previews of future episodes suggest that she is in a form of a coma and maybe she makes it back?
Lila doesn't appear to be dead basing upon the preview for episode 3. I'm assuming she's in some sort of comatose state, or a state of near-death. I think the spice melange will be used in some way based on that scene where she's holding a small glass container with what appears to be spice mixed into some sort of solution.
when arafel strikes, the bg flee with battlestar galactica
I really love that all the characters are aware of the game. The tug of war and the land of shadows beneath it all. I hope they keep it up!
They had never woken memories in a gala until Duncan Idaho a.k.a. Hate
I love that you remembered Hate. :)
i LOVE that this show has teeth and that they are taking the lore seriously.
and i was just beginning to really like lila and her bond with tula 💔
The great thing about this story is it gives you a sense of how unimportant the events of our day may be when you look ahead tens of thousands of years. People like John Kennedy or Martin Luther or William the Conqueror may be all but forgotten.
Yes. No fillers. I think there will be a season 2
I doubt it just a limited time series to keep fans interested in dune until messiah comes out
"The key to the reckoning is one born twice: " That sounds like Paul. Isnt the reckoning going to happen in Letos' time? The discrption is of being born twice, the second time through what might be spice agony. Paul did not become the shortening of the way ( Kwisatz Haderach) until he endured the spice agony.
The power is just magic. It's hard to believe is technological because the whole memories from your mother is just magic, witness events you were not even present is magic, prophecy is just magic. Magic everywhere.
This episode was an improvement over the last. It's really, REALLY strange how both this show and the film seem to be allergic to showing us or even talking about the spacing Guild in any way whatsoever for the most part. It definitely existed at this time and was definitely as important as it is now. It's an intrinsic part of both the universe and its power structure. I'm also starting to think that perhaps this mystery character is either the robot Erasmus himself OR his human son. (who is the first mentat of what will become an entire order equal to other similar groups like Suk doctors and sword masters.)
I'm confounded as well, it's like the Guild Navigators are the elephant in the room! And it can't be because they are afraid of copying David Lynch or the miniseries. I think Denis Villeneuve and these writers genuinely have no clue how to present the Spacing Guild on screen for the general audience. In Frank Herbert's books their ways were very obscure, but they along with Mentats are the rising power in this period and I really really want to see the genesis of human society at this point in time that evolves away from technology/AI and into profound physiological, neurological and quantum control. It will be fascinating and I think the show is missing out on how much of a gem this is if they explored it in depth. Sure, maybe the average viewer won't get it, but Dune is meant to be thought provoking and philosophically engaging.
well the Rechese princess mentions the Guild during the sex scene. But that was it. I don't think in either Dune part 1/2 or this tv show, nobody has mentioned that the guild have a monopoly on space travel and like, there are no star wars space battles because the risk/cost is too great and great houses and the emperor risk losing their space traveling privileges if they ever do an attack in space that risks a guild high-liner. Which is 1 of the coolest dynamics in the legendarium. 1 day..
Even the calendar has been changed to AG, meaning After Guild. They are the most powerful faction, by far, and indeed are never to be seen. That's sad, although I doubt they could make the next movies with Guild involvement.
I think "The path too short" refers to accessing male ancestral memory, with a corollary "path too long" referring to the female ancestral memory, implying that the "Golden path" is obtained dialectically when the two are both accessible.
You put me on to the Three Body books and help me sleep, least I can do is give you my thumbs. 👍
A revenant is a creature that has returned from death. I think that bit is being skipped by a lot folks. That could also apply Paul, Leto and Desmond. Interesting
I assumed Desmond was just playing along with the voice tbh. Don’t think he was affected at all. The shaking was overdramatic. That’s how I viewed it anyway…
I'm loving the pace of those first episodes, hope it keep delivering good stories until the end of the season.
I think that the Voice didn't affect Desmond at all, he was just playing with Valya.