Rod Ratio, Stroker Engines, Ring Gap & Deck Height Explained : Why I build M50 turbo engines our way
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2024
- Rod Ratio ? Stroking ? Deck Height? This video explains what conrod ratio is, how to calculate rod ratio, what deck height is, what stroke is and how you stroke an engine, and how this affects performance and reliability. In the case of the M50 engine, I like to stay on 2.8 M52B28 crank rather than use the 3.0 M54B30 crank, for the same reason as 2JZGTE 3.4 stroker engines have a shorter life than 2J stock setups. Although this video shows footage of crankshaft , pistons, conrods and more, you can also listen to it as a drifting podcast.
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This man is putting together a master class during his commute. Always working.
haha yes, we are still making build videos but just don't have time to edit them, so just hoarding material. also compacting an entire build in 2-3 videos, I don't like it when channels stretch out a build process with unboxing nonsense and obvious stuff.
220hp is the reasonable argument for using the M54B30 and bore to 86mm. The S52 makes an easy 6-700 hp boosted and 250 wheel before boost. You can fit pistons w/ 9.5:1. The other end of the spectrum is to build a racecar and plan for 9k rpm but you won't have power from 2-5k. The honda rods 138mm can be used if you want to lose weight (-36 grams from stock). The focus on square is great theoretically but in practice a better streetable turbo can be built with the biggest safe displacement.
Just came across your channel. You explain this very well. I actually built a budget m50 stroker using spares from the workshop. I have m54b30 internals in there, so crank, rods and pistons. My next step was to boost, now you make me think I should pull the 3.0 crank out and fit a 2.8 crank instead.
this channel is so underrated .
thank you for this videos
Share it!
Wout bringing the knowledge as always! Thanks for confirming my 130.4/79mm isn't bad!
Nope, that's actually perfect.
For instance S38B36 is a rod ratio of 1.67 , would be perfect for boost.
And check out M50B20 rod ratio with only 66mm stroke ;)
If you would run 140mm rods in there, you end up with 2.1 rod ratio.
Pretty sure those will do 10.000rpm with the right valvetrain.
I completely follow your logic after you explained very well! Thanks for the feedback on the ratio I've ended up with, which is my ej20 engine with the larger 79mm crank.
I do also have the correct mahle pistons for this etc etc but just knowing that what I've been told to put together (IE the science behind) was really a great comfort, so thank you for this!
@@mattwindsor2472 subarus have a pretty big bore. They want to have some stroke to keep torque . Keep in mind that 4 cyl only use 4 "blows" to rotate the crankshaft which makes the engine less stable to begin with than an L6
@@DriftJesus
Currently my bore is 92.5mm so nothing wild there.
Its funny you mention the harmonics compared to the i6 as this is an often talked about debate when talking all things subaru!
This is regarding the way the rotating assy balances itself to a better extent than an i4 being a flat 4. Any thoughts? Perrin for example sell a lightweight crank pulley with no harmonic balancing at all! I like my bearings however so i bought a later ej25 pulley for my build.
Sorry for hijacking into the subaru world but its not often you get to pick the brains of a knowledgable guy such as yourself!
Wow was searching on how to stroke a M50 engine and came across this channel it's very informative... Will definitely watch more of your content just wish you weren't so far from me 😂 keep the information coming
Thanks! Where are you watching from?
@@DriftJesus I'm watching from South-Africa I would really like more info on the M50 Engines you mentioned that your engine made 220hp how did you do that would love that power in my e30
Great video Wout! I saw you mention the B20 below. I have often thought this is the unloved child that deserves some love. If only time and money were endless. Would love to build a nice B20 with large turbo and revv to the moon
Yeah, we did an M20B20 250hp 380nm turbo motor, its amazing for daily use.
Correctly built M50B20 would be great for high boost
In America the 1995 m3 had a 86mm crank and 86mm bore.... The biggest h.p. m5x cars in the u.s. use the 86mm stroke for the same rod ratio as the 2.8. will it last as long as a 2.8 with thinner cylinder walls? who knows.
audio was perfect for me on my tv. i knew 2.8s had best harmonics but did not know the fine print as you could say. thank you God bless. question. just ordered a vf sc kit for my m54b30 zhp , unopened 150k motor. im happy to go forged once it blows, but what do you recommend? its a healthy motor and has all preventative repairs done. got it to make me less impatient when building my m52b28tu turbo setup
you will probably have some blow-by with that. Run low boost and keep an eye on crank pressure and change the oil often. Any power adder, being SC , Turbo , Nitrous will require correct ring gaps.
Sure,more easier to understand,thx man.
You promised the video and delivered. Love the commitment. True Jesus to the sport 🙏🏿
haha yes got a lot of questions so just press record when I'm driving around haha
Awesome content, glad for your effort and time! For N/A application with M5x stroker combo could be the best then ?
Great video and valuable information! Thanks
thanks! where are you watching from?
@@DriftJesus Cali
Hi Grandmaster. All m50b25 blocks are 210.7mm in height. Is this true. What exactly is the M50b25 block height.
Nice video, Can you use m50b25 head on m50b20 i want turbo it and m50b25 have bigger valves?
No.
What about rod ratio on a v8 Application. Would the slant on the cylinder help with rod ratio?
Good Q! Nope doesn't matter !
The audio was pretty good, even more when looking at the conditions, so I've already kinda stuck myself cuz I have a 3L crank and a M50B25TU block, I was thinking of running 9.0 CP Pistons and was planning on a S366 turbo, are there any ways to not shoot myself in the foot harder than I already kinda did, I was honestly thinking of just running it till it gives and then swap into something more sensible such as a 2JZ or a LS1
you can run the M54 crank, but just run really good pistons and machine the motor perfectly. My point is that the M54 crank is not a great ' budget' idea. if you build the motor right, and accept 3-4 seasons out of it, no problem. and probably go dry sump.
@@DriftJesus I do agree, I honestly just wanted the displacement for the low end and to hopefully help with the spool since it's a big lazy turbo and definitely not the most efficient, what do you think of keeping the standard rods tho? I do plan on building it with new ones but idk if I should build a backup engine with the extra stuff I have
What would you recommend I was originally think of going the direction of m50b30 or I was going to swap to a ls engine only because I want to build a reliable engine for occasional drift events for fun.. but this is giving me so much good info so im just curious. I'm planning to go forged rods and pistons regardless.
So if i want to build a m54 with a 84mm bore, is it better to start with a b22 block that has 80mm bore stock and then bore it up to 84 to ensure it's totally round?
Best start with an M50B25 and bore that over untill its round.
What about using 140mm rods and shorter compression height to correct the rod ratio ? I guess for high HP the ping being closer to the rings and to the top is going to be a problem but it seems for most builds it'd be OK. You briefly mention it but I'd like to hear more about it.
Question also is how much does rod ratio really matter, in theory it seems like it does, but then you look at OEM rod ratios of lots of good engines, and then you're confused, like the S50b32 which has bad ratio, and I've never heard it have more piston ovalization than the b30 which has a great rod ratio. Also was a great hp/L engine, despite everything pointing out that such bad rod ratio would be less performant than a good high ratio.
Also why do you say in some comments that 86mm bore is too much for an M50 block ? US M3 is stock 86mm on same casting and people boost these all day long, and there's even lots of americans running 87mm, so I'm confused if I'm missing something or what
Also I've been toying around the idea of a very simple drop in upgrade for M50tu, b28 crank, stock tu 140mm rods, and m54b25 piston makes for a m50b28 but with better rod ratio and higher compression, wonder how that'd react and if it'd be worth at all compared to just dropping the full b28 assembly in. Obviously I'm talking of this setup for just simple NA street car.
You're missing something thats said in the video. Even the majority of the B25's are ovalized. Ovalizing is not a problem untill you boost things.
@@DriftJesus But the majority of M50's also have 250k km, so is it really bad rod ratio, which doesn't necessarily make sense on stock engines as the b25 has great rod ratio, or is it simply they're old, high km and probably with meh maintenance ?
But really was mostly asking for insight on the impact of rod ratio on the actual performance and feel, rather than on longevity, because that's mostly what you've talked about, but I'm not sure it matters for most guys building their engines as they're either street cars not planning to drive 100k km, or race cars that see the track twice a year and not full seasons endurance, so I'm not sure the wear is as major as you highlight it to be for most people.
Also a B30 doesn't have a "great rod ratio" either for boost.
The way people judge if something "really matters" often is different from how I judge it, which is fine.
Once you start looking for real life performance that beats a $9000 N/A new V8, it starts to come in play.
If you don't mind staying below that performance, or don't really stress the car (small tires, road driving, instagram fun) none of it matters, you can have fun with the worst engine ever made.
Now, if you do want to exceed 550 wheel and 7500rpm, all these things DO matter and ofcourse as said in the video, is not just rod angle / thrust & ovalizing.
Its all just aimed towards finding the maximum performance, if you don't do that everything is fine. The car will however not perform like it could, which is fine for many people.
@@imnota again
Ovalizing and rod ratio doesn't matter much for N/A.
I have a 104k km first owner M50B25 motor which is ovalized, removed it myself from an automatic trans car.
S54 or S50 will see intergalactic mileage and still run strong despite less than ideal rod ratio, because they are N/A.
However boosting these motors is not a great idea, unless , as said before, the car has an easy life. Michael Essa in FD usually needed 4-6 motors per season and he knows everything there is to know about them. Yes there are instagram & stance guys with "1000whp bro" S54's that don't break but that's because those cars aren't stressed at all.
Its also not just a matter of longevity. Watch the video again, its not only about rod angle and thrust. The job & conditions for the piston are greatly affected aswell.
@@DriftJesus
I understand that the reason the less than ideal stock engines or instagram builds last is because most people don't stress them like an FD driver does, and it's kind of my point, most of the people watching this video and questionning their builds right now aren't FD drivers either, neither do they plan on going around the world in their cars.
But what I don't understand is that all the theory points out to an NA engine wanting the highest rod ratio possible, with bikes being at 2 and F1 at like 2.5, with all theory articles saying it's what makes them make power at high rpm, but then engines like the S50b32 which have ratios WELL below that and yet broke hp/L records.
I guess the S50 maybe isn't the best example because realistically it doesn't rev that high, but let's take the K20 engine, it has 1.6 rod ratio which isn't anything impressively high, yet people make crazy HP/L while also keeping it alive past 10k rpm. So really my question is the 1.9+ rod ratio dream that most theory article talk about actually will make an NA engine make more power, or is it not real world applicable because it'll only matter at 15+k rpm, or even will it not help at all the power delivery?
A question also left, is you say "good rod ratio FOR BOOST" plenty of times in the video, but never really explain what makes a ratio good for boost, but not necessarily for NA and the other way around.
Because it's the first time I hear of such concept, most info about rod ratio is basically just X rod ratio = good and y rod ratio = bad, nobody really talks about different goals for different use cases, and people seem to tend saying the higher the better, but you don't point to that and with how knowledgeable you seem you have a good reason to think that way
Great video. I actually tore down an M54B30 to get the rotating assembly for my M50B25NV. I know the NV pistons are not that good. What about using the M54B30 pistons with the M50B25 rotating assembly? Is that even possible?
I wouldn't use any OEM pistons. The OEM pistons and rods are good for factory items compared to other car brands, but they're nothing special vs aftermarket stuff. Add to that the fact that almost all M5x need to be overbored + you want to drop some compression , so its wise to get aftermarket pistons and rods anyways
@@DriftJesus what about the crank dampers on the 25 and 28? Stil need an upgraded oil pump?OEM good enough? Seeing i need an ATI damper and a bunch of other work done to spin over 6500 makes me not want the 3.0 setup. Im really just looking for 450-500hp. Anything more is useless on the street anyway
What do you think about m50b29 stroker as a high revving N/A engine using m50b25 with b28 crank and 86mm pistons? I'm trying to achieve +350hp out of the m50 while being N/A and below 3L displacement.
N/A its less critical. Why stay under 3L?
@@DriftJesus Staying under 3L displacement allows me to compete in modified time attack class.
@@jastly i'd grab an S50B30
When you mention ethonal affecting the oil is this just a issue when the oil is cold? Does the ussue resolve when the oil is at operating temp?
Nope, always has blow by, mostly when cold but also warm.
What i mean to say is the oil temperature. Will the hott oil temps burn off the contamination from ethonal? Or is the oil permanently affected
@@TheKeatyBear you can burn some of it out, but would require very high temps and continuous driving
Appreciate the feedback. Love the channel, learning alot from your videos
Also if I were to go the 2.8 route would I have to use the m52 head? My car is a 1995 OBD1 that the motor is going in.
Nope, 2.8 crank in 2.5 motor
@@DriftJesus hey bud sorry I know you wrote me back 7 months ago about this but now I’m fully committed to do this build and I’m going to start getting all my parts together here in a couple weeks. So if I’m correct I need to find m52b28 crank because I’m going to order forged rods and pistons. Now I’m planning to upgrade the fuel pump and injectors as well and planning on running a gt3582 turbo. Also the cut ring head gasket and arm head studs. Now I’m only shooting for a reliable and strong 500-550hp and I was just wondering if you recommend anything else. I’m also going to run a ATI damper to help with the harmonic vibrations. Currently the engine I have is a m50b25tu single vanos if that helps.
alright now I'm back up in the air after watching another one of your videos again.. between and LS or the forged m50b28 turbo build.. in your opinion which way should I go for less maintenance and best reliability for good seat time? I know you said its a no brainer for the LS in the e36 chassis is a lightweight and strong seat time build. I'm in the states also.
Also you are right it's all the little stuff that adds up because I can pick up a 6.0L for almost nothing and rebuild it for almost nothing with quality parts and be pushing close to 500hp with not much work at all. The mounts and all the corresponding parts are what make it expensive.
I have m50b25 and want to fit crank and conrods from 2.8 and can I fit b30 pistons with that crank?
@@ecuperformance3320 makes no sense to build a motor with stock parts
yo, i''ve been always believing that the cd's won't die that fast and will be repurposed in a good educational way :D
Haha I have tons, I can't stand non-factory audio in a car so just have CD's in this car
Hey drift jesus, I have a m50 block in which i planned to put a m54 crank, forged pistons and rods and convert the head to use double Vanos, but after seeing this video I am kind of hesitant of the 3.0 crank, I have already bought everything I’m just waiting for some small bits to assamble it. I did some calculations and the 2.8 crank would work with 140mm rods and the pistons that I have now(28.3 comp height and 15cc dish). With the 3.0 I would have 8.5:1 comp and with the 2.8 I would have 9:1 comp. What do you think ?
I like higher comp, keep in mind which fuel you will run.
@@DriftJesus I will run pump gas, unfortunately no e85 in Croatia, I am shooting for a reliable 600hp street car, do you think it's worth converting to 2.8 crank or do I just use what I've already bought ?
@@adrianbaric4260 I like the 2.8
Is that the BMW spare tire alignment tool that you’re using to illustrate rod ratio 😂
Ofcourse, its all unscripted
@@DriftJesus
I don’t believe you 🤯
I gonna build a M50B28T by using a M52TUB28 crank and fully forged engine internals, but my B25 block is rust inside after sit for a while so I really want to bore it out to 85mm but the cons is wall thickness and engine is gonna run on E100😅 so you have any advice?😊
I think that's too far to bore out.
What about a higher rod ratio like 1.8?
Does that mean that is safer way to rev it high?
Yes. But you will also lose some torque and some vacuum departing from TDC
Im building something different(dont laugh🤣) m40b18 but also related with the subject, with 84.5mm m50 pistons, 140mm rods, 1.7mm head gasket. That should have good rod ratio, and i think i can rev it safely up to 7500
@@vjerankladic2370 I wouldn't rev any standard rod or piston over 7k
@@DriftJesus both forged
@@vjerankladic2370 yep send it
What is a good piston ring gap for a M50 NV
Turbo setup ?
Depends on many variables but can be from .020 - .033 on top ring. Consult your piston or ring supplier aswell.
@@DriftJesus I really like your video, very good content. I have a M50 NV and I teared down a clean M54B30 to swap the crank and con rod and piston lol after watching this video. I have a lot to think about 🙂
Is there an ideal ratio for street use? Is 1.75 a good ratio for street, or is it betrer higher or lower?
It doesn't matter if its street or race. You want to be over 1.6 for sure no matter what.
And what about the ratios over 2? Better for turbo or NA?
what about using decompression plates? so a head gasket+plate+gasket?
Nope
@@DriftJesus nope as in its not a good idea either?
@@patrykkowalski6 not a good idea
Best idea is cut ring gasket and use pistons to modulate compression.
M50 is not a good motor to budget build unless you want Instagram performance.
Real world real use good powerband, it needs to be built.
Its not a turbo motor from the factory.
@@DriftJesus just want reliable 350/400 hp from 2.5 m52tu
@@patrykkowalski6 build it. Its not about power levels, you want a useable motor, not Clutch Kick Central
If you build an undriveable motor you need a big trans, diff, axles due to endless clutch kicks.
Will be way more expensive.
M52b28 pistons and rods on m50b25 nv crank will work? I have a crack piston and a spare m52..
My target is to run with 0.6 boost stock studs (new) and 2.03 head gasket :D need an advice before i will blow the engine :))
Don't use second hand pistons from one engine into another engine
@@DriftJesus but new m52b28 rods and pistons only will fitt on m50b25 nv? I have any advantages?
@@vasilicalupu8334 machine the block. Buy good aftermarket pistons. There is some shop in Poland that always swaps out pistons between motors and its always drama on boost, as I said many times, these engines become ovalized due to low deck height. Swapping pistons around is always a bad idea
i dont like my life so RB for life :D
RB's are turbo motors from the factory , oil pump is a weak link but apart from that, 90% of the problems come from age or build conceptual errors
@@DriftJesus once i install the Jz style (geared) snout on the crank and oil pump + proper tune my RB was very happy, going strong since 2018. M50's are great but i don't like their sound.
So the s50/s54 has a really bad rod ratio...💔 that's why they're eating rod bearing that fast 😁.
For boost it would be bad, yes. They eat bearings "fast" because its a relatively small bearing to allow it to do high rpm
Well... it's staying n/a so no prob there. But nice of you to make people understand bigger is not always better. I've seen a trend in the recent years that guys who really know their stuff stay away from stroker motors regardless of platform, bmw, toyota or nissan. Good video as always. Thank you 🙏
@@raduorban its all about the relation of components.. if you'd look at a 2JZ, and you kind of mimic that setup on rod radio, you'd have 2.5 or 2.8. You don't need to be a rocket scientist, just look into the geometry of proven turbo motors. Deck height on JZ is way better , so if you really want to mimic a JZ you best stay on 2.5l , better rod ratio than JZ but shorter deck so closest thing.