I totally know what you mean. My chemistry teacher was THAT chemistry teacher. Among many other things that wouldn't fly in todays world, he taught us how to make gun powder, napalm, and chlorine gas. He didn't want any of us doing it by accident, or for any of us to be able to say we didn't do it on purpose. Ah, the 80's... It was a simpler time. 😏
Dr. Page once showed us an experiment where he set a bunch of magnesium the size of his fist on fire and took cover behind a test tube rack while we gathered around to watch the iron dust in the sand being melted to solid iron out the bottom of the flower pot. I remember he got into the finer details of mixtures of shot and powder in the hobby of shotgun shooting with my lab partner. (hello Sharif Khan if you're out there, I did shave the bottoms of my sideburns at some point, and ended up getting through that calculus class with more of an A than a B in the end.) (Hello Dr. Page, I never did go into chemistry, but, what has stuck has stuck.)
Hmmm. Was this a stress test to the goblins or to the man himself? 15 min of shake.turn.jump and destroy minis has to be totaly abuse to the mind. Thanks for doing this for us :)
The are some plastic models that sadly have some problems if not sealed, i primed all my minis but for example The primaris librarian and chaplain robes, If you touch them even If The paint is dried completly you may risk to ruin them, so you have to put a varnish on them
@@1945atombomb when I was painting a pewter model for a friend I straight up rubbed dry paint off of it while handling it. So yeah totally agree with this comment section.
As someone who first started Warhammer in 3rd Edition, seriously fuck metal models. They were awful to paint, fell apart if they fell on their side (looking at you nightbringer and deceiver) and some units were awful to collect since they only came in blisters (Necrons pariahs for example, a whole unit of 10 would cost you around 80 euros in early 2000s money, would be around 140 in today's GW prices)
This was the most wholesome attempt on my life anyone has ever made. I almost had a heart attack watching you bounce those minis around, but I was grinning like an idiot the whole time.
I've painted GW models for 25 years, and early on when I was a child I didn't have access to spray on primer (what with being 7 at the time) and I quickly learned about paint rubbing off easily when brushed on. I think the airbrush partially dried the paint as you laid it down, thin coats helped it dry faster, and your test procedure of allowing a good amount of time to let the paint cure also helped a lot. One note for anyone out there reading this comment: I've learned that contrast paints, specifically the red ones, act in a similar way to painting over bare plastic, in that it can easily rub off for some time after being painted, even if it seems dry. I've learned this the hard way, when a few cloaks I have painted got damaged when lightly handled a couple of days after painting them, and that was a case of primer, contrast paint, and two coats of washes. I've gotten into the habit of varnishing anything that I paint predominantly with contrast paints as a precaution since then. That being said, I've also used it as a technique when I want a fast and dirty highlight on something, by painting contrast paint over a more stable coat, letting it dry for an hour, then rubbing with my thumb to catch the edges I want to stand out (specifically I have used this on Necron Warriors, painting their weapons with black templar over a metallic coat, and abrading it to have the edges shine).
Thank you! I love the goobs and he's usually very scientific with his methods but the fact that each model was base coated with an airbrush with the same colour is where the test becomes a lot less useful for me personally. I have had issues with paint flaking off occasionally but had no idea why it would happen on some minis and not others, the contrast paint weakness is an interesting point and I'll look out for that in future.
Priming’s essential if you’re brush painting which is why it’s the done thing. Airbrushing wasn’t anywhere near as common when these old rituals were established. I remember painting old Eldar without priming about 15 years ago and the paint’s own surface tension pulled the paint together rather than coating evenly. Paints and plastics have changed since then, though. Varnishing has lots of applications like preserving layers while you work over the top of them (Vince Venturella does this a lot), preventing your own fingers from rubbing paint layers off (personal experience), making something tougher than it has to be for common use (eg. Store models used for demos which will have all sorts of hands and mishaps happen) or changing the reflectivity of the material like matting down satin paints with a matte varnish.
I brush paint. If I showed you my primed and unprimed you wouldn't not be able to tell the difference. I have about 50% of both. It's nonsense left over from metal mini era.
@@CloudianMHJust found a model where the paint is all coming off the moment I pick it up and handle it. I can take the paint off the corners just by stroking my finger across it. Priming is absolutely necessary.
I have never had any noteworthy issues at all with basecoat-only, be it brush-on or airbrushed. It's true that a brush-on basecoat is a little less sturdy and may rub off on raised edges if you touch it too much, but if you use a painting handle (you should), it's a non-issue. I've been painting minis (both GW plastics and my own resin prints) for about 4 years now, and have never - not once - used primer. After varnishing, I haven't had any problems with paint rubbing off my models (and even without varnish there seems to be very little of that, if at all). No scratches either. I firmly believe that priming is a holdover from the days of pewter models, where it absolutely made sense because acrylics really don't stick well to metal surfaces on their own. But for resin and plastic models? There is really no need whatsoever to prime.
You and Midwinter Minis hepled me to start collecting AND painting again after 20 years of break, I started again with cadian trooper and I'm more confident thanks to your videos. And thanks to this one I understand how priming your minis impaxt them. Keep up the good work ^^
I know how you feel. Squidmar Miniatures, Tabletop Minions and KiriothTV also helped me. (and many more by now, like Dana Howl, EonsofBattle, eBay miniatures rescue, Pete the Wargamer, Sam Lenz, Duncan Rhodes, Tabletopwitchcraft etc) I made the mistake and started with Miniac. It was a mistake because his skills are quite initmidating. (but he has so many usefull advice, also he is nuts) But with the help of Brent and "Uncle Adam" I was able to overcome this hurdle.
For painting handles you can use anything the right size and shape, at the moment I’m using some old cylinder shaped asthma inhalers. I use a bit of blue tack on the base of the models to attach them
Thanks especially for the final test with paintbrush on unprimed plastic. I don't have an airbrush so knowing for sure my type of painting reacts in this way is helpful. There was a model I had recently where I wasn't sure how good my priming coverage was and noticed having a really hard time getting paint to stick to certain recessed parts of the model where I think there was basically no primer, and suspected this was the reason.
Thanks for this awsome video on experimentation. You made the comment in the video that there are many different types of paints out there which could lead to different effects. Interestingly, Vallejo's description of the Game Color range indicates the following, 'The formulation of these colors has been developed signed taking into account that some of these figures are used in tabletop games, so that Game Color is manufactured with a revolutionary new resin which offers extraordinary resistance to the damage caused by frequent handling.' It is possible this gave the unvarnished models you painted added durability which is really interesting to note. Personally, when using Vallejo Model Color, I've had to varnish my miniatures as the paint is not as durable. Especially on metal/pewter where I've had the paint rub right off as you show in your video.
Some techniques like wet blending or even dry brushing are easier or better done with a primed surface. If the bottom layers of paint aren't properly stuck, then the brush work will pull them right off
Paint technology has come a very long way since I started in the 80s. I was surprised how well the paint covered that grot. That being said, I always prime and varnish my models. Oils from handling and foam carriers, dropping them etc all take its toll. It’s worth it to me to protect my models over time. Also I like the way the matte varnish darkens my paints slightly adding a depth of color.
Fun experiment! I first started painting minis ~40 years ago. Lead minis with the paints available back then, when subjected to handling with fingers during play, had paint rub off fairly easily *unless* you primed and varnished. The difference was *stark* and impossible to overlook. I had so many minis with shiny elbows, knees, heads, and base rims where lead polished with finger oils peeked through. Once I'd built the habit of priming and varnishing, I never changed even though the paints, primers, varnishes, and model material certainly have. Given Vallejo, GW, Army Painter et al all sell primers and varnishes, it's certainly not in their interest to disabuse customers of that habit. Thus, we still prime and varnish whether it's needed or not. And I intend to keep doing it!
What I liked the most is the nauhty face and the mixed feelings I experienced. It must be nice to do that after years of containment and care when manipulating minis... *"Break the dam! Release the river!!"* That said, I was also dying to take the box out of your hands, the shakes were more harmful to me than to the actual minis... Love your videos, I hope we get some more on the "hobby science" topic ;) Thanks!
I think what really helped is that the paint was applied in thin coat with airbrush. The thinner the layer the harder it is to crape off the paint. And you gave them full 24h to completely dry. I always primer my minis, but almost never varnish if I'm not doing oil paint washes.
Thing about this primary test is that it only displays that very light plastic models don’t loose that much paint when impacting another plastic surface and then settling. That really isn’t the failure case for paint in a lot of cases, think about the amount of paint you loose on a car when you reverse into a post vs when you scrape along a wall. Most paint on minis is stripped either chemically by oils, or by the friction of being dragged across rough terrain or packing foam. The days of paint just falling off models when touched is pretty exclusive to resin and metal, not plastic. Still a fun test. And amusing footage. Really amazed at the low damage to the minis themselves. Also priming plastic has the advantage of allowing you to paint with very thin paint straight away without it pooling up.
I love this video. As a guitar player that has "PISS HANDS", my guitar strings corrode faster, so when painting models, I have to be sure not to touch them very often or else I will for sure peel paint off revealing the primer. I would imagine that sweat and oils in the hands are what would cause a mini to get scuffed easier. Especially for the gamers with Piss Hands. Would love to see a touch test.
Enjoyed the video, Brent! Though I feel the results are more a testament to how good base coating with an airbrush is rather than how "not that bad" not priming is. I definitely remember painting minis unprimed and having the paintjob rub off like that even as much as weeks later. I would recommend looking into the chemical differences between primer and the Game Air paint that you undercoated with! Could make for an interesting video!
It is funny as a professional painter I have always primed my surfaces as the paint will adhere better in the long run as well as application troubles are lessened. I enjoyed your process but I will always prime when I do start painting my mini's. I have had troubles when painting "dodgy" surfaces and using gesso on surfaces to get better paint adhesion. I am glad to know that it does not seem to matter with little plastic models, but I will still prime and coat my work. Thanks Brent another sweet video!
You dont have to varnish but priming definitely makes a difference with how brushed on paint sticks to a mini. Not so much airbrush, that makes the paint stick to the mini better.
It's been my experience that (for plastic models at least) the primary need for varnish is to keep the oils in your fingers from damaging your paint job. The secondary use for varnish is to reduce glossiness (or increase it w/ a gloss varnish). Especially if you use paints from different lines, some are glossier than others and often I'll want an even level of matte/silk sheen, with maybe some choice bits highlighted in glossy varnish (guts, lenses, etc). Also, if a model still has any mold release agent on it, an airbrush/rattle can prime will often stick in ways that paint on basecoat won't. Finally, if you've been playing with your models for a while before you start painting them, there's likely some oil on the minis that will make the paint have a harder time sticking... Giving your unpainted models a wash in warm soapy water can really help when you finally get around to painting them after you've been playing with them for a couple years.
In my experience basecoats, either primed or painted on, tend to stay intact on plastic models. It's as you put more and more layers on top of the basecoat where damage can occur. That's why I always varnish. Plus it evens out your paint jobs :)
I do modelbuilding for many years for (1:35 ww2 tanks/soldiers/ Dioramas) and i never primed . Now i got into War gaming and i needed to start using prime. It's exactly like you say, i miss my right hand and i'm not able to hold my mini's in a propper way . I'm always touching freshly painted parts way to often and primer works for for that. Really important to et the primer dry and harden for a good amount of time.
For me the zenithal highlights are definitely worth the cost of priming! 🙌 As an armature only having to worry about keeping my layers thin and colours matching is a life saver! 😃
I did a comparison test years ago on priming. I used plastic spoons for test subjects. I scuffed a few, used primers, used paint without primer, painted over primers and let some dry for 24hrs and some only an hour. I then used Tamiya tape over them and did pull tests. After all that I determined the most durable combination - prime, wait for 24hrs, paint, gloss varnish, then mask or weather depending on what you want to do next and then final varnish layer. I pretty much just proved what I had always been told was the best way.
Awesome video, but i think it has two main issues: - Everything was sprayed/airbrushed, thicker coats from a brush can be much more sensitive. Its not just an issue of fresh vs. 24h cured paint. - Fingers on a human skin can be much harsher than just rattling around in plastic.
Okay, this was very cool but not surprising given the type of damage used in the test (loved watching your face though!!!). My question: what about rubbing, and oils from fingers deteriorating paint over time? Coming from the art world, I was taught to prime and later spray seal my canvas not because it would guard against major damage like this but because it would guard against handling. The oils on human skin break down paint.
This is a love letter to the durability or Vallejo paints is what it is! I had paint chip off the model last night during the wash step using Citadel paints. If I can remove it with a paint brush, my fingers will take it off for certain. For me, I will continue to prime and varnish.
This is good science. Sometimes you have a hypothesis that just isn't born out by the data and the only way to learn that is to do the experiment and see what happens. Even though the result was basically "none of these things have a discernible impact" Im glad you still posted the video.
Things you might consider testing in future: • Heat (not just high temperature necessarily but also rapid transition from cold to hot and hot to cold: I know for instance that one of the things considered to warp guitars most frequently is storing them in a place that gets hot and then cold again, like on an external wall above a radiator or whatever) • Abrasive surfaces (you could put some sandpaper in the box and shake them or something) • Grease/oil/etc • Water/humidity/etc • Any other dirt/grime/solvents/etc that they might commonly come into contact with, like sugary or salty residue from fingers, etc.
Excellent experiment! The other thing to note is if you use a glossy primer paint will be harder to stick. I accidently bought some white gloss primer and it took several coats of paint before it would stick and not scratch off.
This is interesting and I think the most useful takeaway from the experiment is that we shouldn´t be so worried about damage during transportation and storage. However, it seems that manhandling your minis during games definitely damages them. You could try making another experiment where you give your minis a few layers of highlights and then just move them around with your hands for a couple of hours. It´s clear you have the mental fortitude for something like that XD
nice test, and besides fingers removing paint before done painting, it also help paint stick. some paint on some plastic is simply rejected until some time where you keep fighting it on. after drying, finger "moist" can dissolve the paint over time. primer helps the paint still stick to the model but varnish is the protective layer here. I imagine that both can help protect the paint from cracking or melting when exposed to cold and heat and maybe also other factors from sunlight. usually paint faints away in sunlight, especially red.
Awesome video, I hope your arms are okay after that workout. As a note from someone who has carried minis incorrectly, it's usually rubbing against other minis (other color transfer), and the oils from your hands (reduced color payoff or flaking) that I've noticed. Keep up the great work!
Wow Vallejo wasn't kidding around when they say they've formulated their game paints for rough handling. Wonder how the other brands would hold up? :O Thanks for sharing this test with us!
Seeing this, I recall old, old advice I got from pops (an old air plane kit builder) when I first got into the hobby 15~ years ago, and using your fingers to rub off paint was an old way of creating highlights. And looking at that poor space goblin, yeah, that's eerily similar to using a Deck Tan drybrush.
the protective properties of the varnish is actually a secondary reason for me to use it. My primary reason is the more equal finish and sealing in grass. Priming for me also has the function of prepping the undertones so yeah even though the protective reasons aren't there, still plenty of reason to do it
Do you think the smaller particle and thinner coats of the airbrush had something to do with it though? Be interesting to see the results of brush painted as well
I am one of those heretics that never primed even a single of their minis. By now I also use an airbrush for my basecoat, which does help a bit, but even if you just brush it on, it holds decently unless you keep touching the model while painting (in that case, it does tend to rub off a bit on raised edges if you're not careful, but that's why I use a painting handle. May also depend on the paint used though, in my brush-on days all I had was ArmyPainter, while currently I mainly use ProAcryl). Once you finish painting and seal the model, I haven't had even the slightest issues with paint loss over countless play sessions with players that will consistently ignore my rule to only touch minis at the base.
My own experience matches up with how easily paint rubs off raw plastic before it's had at least a week to fully cure. Also, another thing I noticed over time is that the extra grip primer provides for paint makes the behavior of a wider variety of paints, at different viscosities, more predictable. Raw plastic acts "greasy" to certain brands of paint, or at certain levels of thinness. This can result in more layers of paint being required to get an even, non-splotchy coat. And that gums the surface up more than necessary. With durability over time, well, there may not be as much of a big difference between primed and un-primed. I've always read that as acrylic paint cures, it bonds tighter and tighter to the surface it's on. And absolute curation can take weeks or even months. I've heard people say that old minis that had been painted ten years ago are incredibly resistant to having the paint scratched off. At that point, the acrylic molecules had practically fused to the underlying plastic.
In my eyes priming is important in two cases: Metal minis (the paint seems to fall off easier on flat surfaces, so a thicker paint layer [priming + color + others] helps keeping the things in place) and making undertones (if you are going to use contrast paints it should be grey, if not you should make it black and then a cenital white airbrush ). Or... well... I usually prime with the basic colour of the mini scheme (blue for lizardmen, green for nurgle, etc...)
Definitely an interesting experiment and result, but my understanding (and I could be wrong) is that there are two important factors that the experiment didn't fully consider: - Airbrushing gives a coverage much closer to a primer than brush painting. Something about the physics of spraying apparently means that airbrushed paints tend to adhere a lot better than brushed paints. Again, I'm no expert - this could be an urban legend. - A key factor in how models wear over time is the buildup of natural oils. Varnish helps a ton with this, but priming also helps. From how you described and showed the experiments, this wouldn't have been replicated particularly well. Again, cool experiments and interesting results, it's just important to understand the implications of it not mirroring natural use.
I've always said it doesn't make that much difference on plastic models. As a kid/teenager I just used to shove all my models into a big box like that, put them in my bag and walk a mile to my best mates house for a game. I must have done that hundreds of times over the years. Most of them weren't primed. I still have some of those models, and whilst the plastic ones took some pretty bad damage in terms of fragile bits snapping off (RIP spears and lances...), the paintwork held up pretty well. However, with metal models it's another story entirely. The paint chips like crazy, and I realised this quickly as a kid. To start with I used to wrap them in tissue paper to protect them, but that didn't hold up. Eventually I realised that I was going to have to start priming and varnishing them properly if I wanted my paint jobs to survive. I think this experience with metal minis is where this idea that you MUST prime and varnish comes from. Back in the day, all models were metal. So the prevailing wisdom that's been passed down from one generation of mini painters to the next is that you have to prime and varnish very carefully or you can say goodbye to your paint jobs. Obviously companies such as GW, Vallejo etc. are more than happy to go along with this, so that they can sell you more products. Thanks for another great video Brent.
Yep, reflects my experience too, excellent science Sir! What will blow some minds is that as far as I can see GW primer sprays aren't anything but normal paint, nothing about them is specifically for priming despite the label, they are just spray acrylics. They don't surface etch or have any specific priming qualities.. Effectively you are just giving your minis a base coat.
Metal Minis, as mentioned below, is why prime and varnish. And they wouldn't have done nearly as well under that abuse. Also, Vallejo Game colors are boss when applied properly. You're choosing the right paint for sure!
I dont always have a problem with scratches or dropping models, what I dont find most common is rubbing off paint when handling. Maybe it's the oils, sweat, or micro texture of your finger prints that do the real damage. (As Midwinter Minis tried when testing black) Would be an interesting test.
nice one. It's been a couple of years for me to paint a mini, but in regards of priming i found it most important for metal models or when you got a mix of metal and plastic models and need consistend results with the same painting techniques. For the abuse test, it was a nice aproach but i think the most damageing sources for minis are harder materials (metal minis or stones) and the act of frequent touching as our hands come with chemicals and abreasive properties quite demanding.
Love it when our favorite UA-camrs do tests like this. I think a good reason for priming is to create a predictable surface both in texture and color. Especially when doing translucent airbrushing passes, the underlying color is especially important. To me, a varnish is applied to create a smooth surface that makes washes and decals decisively easier. The flat varnsish in the end is used to create the desired finish. As your Video suggests, the steps are not necessary for the durability of the paintwork. A test you could make is how easily "fresh" paint wipes off of primed surfaces? I don't think you tried that. Using primer and varnish likely elevates the painting results, at least in my books
Yes the way he paints the unprimes mini at the end is very different from how I paint a primed mini. I use thin coats over a zenithal underpainting. You cant do that without priming and you cant use thin paints on raw plastic, it will just bead up and fall off.
I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into testing this stuff that I often wonder about but don't have practical means to thoroughly test. Your positivity is contagious and inspiring. Keep up the great work!
I think another major damage point is rubbing of skin on the model. This can cause a lot of friction ware, especially for models that have movable components (ex. Craftworld heavy weapon platforms), where twisting these parts requires a fairly tight grip on the model. Your skin will have a higher coefficient of friction on a model than they do on each other.
This was quite informative and unexpected. While you uncoverd one part of the "paint unprimed models", there is something I have discovered with the Space Marines of the time of your Goblins (second edition 40k Starter box set): The paint does not hold onto the mini while you paint it. Large surfaces have the habit of letting your paint "run off". (more problem with newer citadel colours, not so with the second edition citadel pots) But this issue is also with many of the "craft store primers" i have encountered locally. (thats why I stay with Army Painter/Citadel rattle cans) But overall I think this "you have to prime and varnish your models" is more based on the "a long time ago metal mini era". I have some minis (okay most of mine!) from that time, and 20 years in a not proper box + moving some times took a toll on all those that were not varnished. Also the metal minis hitting each other in a situation you simulated, would cause severe damage to the paintjob (even with primer). But it will also take the minis apart after some time, except for those 1 piece metal minis (i hope).
I'd love to see this again but with metal minis! :) HOOO BOI I can't imagine there's anything you can do to get them to survive that kind of abuse! I certainly have to treat my infinity models like little precious ancient artifacts for fear of chipping my paintjobs!
4:04 the bartender begins shaking your cocktail. Suddenly a time warp loop traps him in a ever increasingly fast loop until he shakes your drink faster than the speed of light
Priming is more needed on metal minis and soft plastics. The hard plastics keep on the modern acrylics on themselves surprisingly good. Still i prefer to prime everything with spray, as it gives a nice base color i can start with, and can spare time with a whole army. Still i loved this contest, and i would like to see some again with a metal and a resin and a soft plastic too.
Would have been nice to put some in a tumbler with foam. We put our models in there because its soft, but its also abrasive, and the vibrations of travel will rub off your paint over years.
The primer is more for metal minis...and some of the resin minis. Some plastics kind of need the primer more than others, often when using some of the other plastics from various toys in bringing it into a project. I tend to prime after part of my basing, using the primer to also seal in the glues and other things there for a more consistent painting.
I've found that the varnish used before the wash has MUCH more of an effect on washes. Why would primers affect them at all? They're hidden under multiple layers of paint.
@@rogthepirate4593 Washes can be applied directly over a primer coat. That's the situation I was considering. ie applying a wash over bare plastic is unlikely to get a desirable result or look.
Another reason to always primer coat your miniatures is because some paints may not properly cover otherwise. Naomi of the "Sword n Steel" channel did a video where she only used the items given to someone in the "Space Marines: Assault Intercessors + Paints Set". On the second marine she started to try to base coat it in the "Corax White: Base" it did not work well by itself. The following is a link to that video and the part in question starts around 6:22. ua-cam.com/video/asUa0GZH4XU/v-deo.html Also thank you Brent for another fun video.
Ha-Har .. Yes I to did this experiment 20 years ago .. And found it very interesting .. I then started just washing my white metal pewter with black inks and painted the colour straight onto the model .. it was great for Orks as the metal colors were always so easy to do ... I then sealed them in a clear coat .. so much time saved doing the hoard 🖖😎💚
I have to say I often don't use varnish, except when I need the matte to pull it all together, the gloss to gloss something up like blood or sometimes, very rarely to have a savepoint in between, but then I also don't play with the minis, but I always prime, even if for the zenithal. Also it sometimes help with minor building issues, like some very small gaps or rough flash removal.
You essentially used goblin green as your primer there. Paints achieve much better adhesion through the airbrush. It's an entirely different story if you do the same with a brush. Some colours may still stick relatively well, others may be impossible to apply without a previous layer of paint. Factory new models can also behave differently than old plastic. I did a similar experiment with just one model, using death guard green as my first layer of brush on primer (with a few hours of drying time before the next layer). Even weeks after drying, paint came down at the corners from touching the model with my fingers.
I don't know if I'm upset that I've wasted so much time varnishing all my plastics or happy I'll be saving the time and effort in the future. I guess I've never liked the effect matt varnish has on metallics so... happy? Great video.
Vallejo Game paints are also advertised as not needing primer on plastic, and being tougher to withstand more abuse. Not sure how big of a difference (if any) it actually makes, but that could be part of why they did so well. It's good information to know, though. :)
If you really want to test it hardcore: Take a wash bag (for fine cloth in the washing machine), but your minis into it and then.... into the washing machine, take a program without water (we have one combined with a dry, and just turn the the heat to lowest level, 20°C, so you have no water and no heat). Then let it run for a half an hour. Best stress test you could do (call it "Mealstrom of Death").
That hand-rubbed effect looked suspiciously like heavy drybrushing, catching all the edges and raised detail. I wonder how much mileage there is in incorporating it into a batch-painting technique? - Paint all over with mid-highlight colour - Leave 24 hours - Paint all over with midtone - Rub mini vigorously with fingers no more than thirty minutes later - drybrush top highlights.
It'll depend on the paint used as well, here's looking at you VMC Black Grey! Varnishing is also useful if you're doing things like enamel washes or fixing pigments and want to minimise potential damage from any solvents, not to mention giving a uniform matt finish :)
YES ALWAYS PRIME! 😊 Before I started priming correctly with a spraycan my paint would rub right off like yours during the painting process, and now all my un-primed minis are having paint chip off if you even look at them wrong months after they've been painted (they were varnished to protect them), so drying time hasn't made any difference 😞 now I spread the good word of properly primed minis wherever I go :D Also it seems airbrushed/spraycan paint sticks to surfaces better than brushed on paint, but im not 100% sure. It would have been cool if you brushed on goblin geen on some of them for the test, but still a helpful video!
I rather think it is why you prime and what your purpose is. I had been painting minis for years before I used a primer. Then I found when I switched to metals, 25mm Napoleonic, that acrylics, which I had just switched to, were too bright on bare metal. So I followed a hobby magazine and primed black. This made it hard work for the red tunics on British troops but the minis did not shine like beacons. When I got into 40k I found that if I used dark grey, colour application was much better and the colours still did not appear unrealistically bright. So my purpose was colour control not tough paint jobs. Of course varnish came in when I found that colours wore off models with constant use. Especially on points like elbows, shoulder pads etc..
I think it's also worth noting that you've suggested the "fresh" paint on unprimed minis comes off easier than "longer set" paint. I wonder if it's the difference between airbrushed paint and brushed on paint. Those minis with paint brushed on and left to dry for 5 days, then going through the same tests would be very interesting (again, spray prime 2 sets, brush paint all sets, varnish a primed set and varnish an unprimed set - that seems like it covers all bases).
I'm a little disappointed with how many goblins you are housing in that container. It should be at least 15 gallons for that many goblins.
Of course, give them to much space and they pop up everywhere and set your house on fire...along with fungal infections...
I just loved the kind of "no gobbos were harmed while filming this video" like disclaimer.
When fish keeping memes cross over with mini painting...
3d printing might solve that
over stocked and under filtered...
You should have saved a lot of effort and just sent them through the post marked 'fragile'.....
Absolutely fckn savage but unfortunatly very true.
On today's episode: Brent commits crimes against miniatures, for science
No one in 40k would agree to that being a crime.
Even orcs would have a joyfull laugh seeing the grots being handled like that.
Brent is like that one chemistry teacher in high school who was everyones favorite bc of all the cool experiments they did.
My favorite was the prof who blew up cakes of sodium in buckets of water - we all loved it!
We had one of those
Also the chalkboard is definitely just a very good picture of his cat throughout all the year
I totally know what you mean. My chemistry teacher was THAT chemistry teacher. Among many other things that wouldn't fly in todays world, he taught us how to make gun powder, napalm, and chlorine gas. He didn't want any of us doing it by accident, or for any of us to be able to say we didn't do it on purpose. Ah, the 80's... It was a simpler time. 😏
Dr. Page once showed us an experiment where he set a bunch of magnesium the size of his fist on fire and took cover behind a test tube rack while we gathered around to watch the iron dust in the sand being melted to solid iron out the bottom of the flower pot. I remember he got into the finer details of mixtures of shot and powder in the hobby of shotgun shooting with my lab partner. (hello Sharif Khan if you're out there, I did shave the bottoms of my sideburns at some point, and ended up getting through that calculus class with more of an A than a B in the end.) (Hello Dr. Page, I never did go into chemistry, but, what has stuck has stuck.)
Hmmm. Was this a stress test to the goblins or to the man himself? 15 min of shake.turn.jump and destroy minis has to be totaly abuse to the mind. Thanks for doing this for us :)
I think priming and sealing became common advice when pewter was the norm. The metal is incredibly rough to paint on, and rubs off incredibly easy.
You said in one paragraph what I said in about 5 in my comment 🤣 But yes, I totally agree!
I used to cast lead minis years ago, this is so true. I've had paint actually fall off the metal overnight with nothing touching in at all
The are some plastic models that sadly have some problems if not sealed, i primed all my minis but for example The primaris librarian and chaplain robes, If you touch them even If The paint is dried completly you may risk to ruin them, so you have to put a varnish on them
@@1945atombomb when I was painting a pewter model for a friend I straight up rubbed dry paint off of it while handling it. So yeah totally agree with this comment section.
As someone who first started Warhammer in 3rd Edition, seriously fuck metal models. They were awful to paint, fell apart if they fell on their side (looking at you nightbringer and deceiver) and some units were awful to collect since they only came in blisters (Necrons pariahs for example, a whole unit of 10 would cost you around 80 euros in early 2000s money, would be around 140 in today's GW prices)
This was the most wholesome attempt on my life anyone has ever made. I almost had a heart attack watching you bounce those minis around, but I was grinning like an idiot the whole time.
I can't believe you didn't drill the barrels.
What I came for.
Hahahahaha!
You're dedication to the 'crash dummy science' is greatly respected.
Those brave little grots ;-)
I've painted GW models for 25 years, and early on when I was a child I didn't have access to spray on primer (what with being 7 at the time) and I quickly learned about paint rubbing off easily when brushed on. I think the airbrush partially dried the paint as you laid it down, thin coats helped it dry faster, and your test procedure of allowing a good amount of time to let the paint cure also helped a lot.
One note for anyone out there reading this comment: I've learned that contrast paints, specifically the red ones, act in a similar way to painting over bare plastic, in that it can easily rub off for some time after being painted, even if it seems dry. I've learned this the hard way, when a few cloaks I have painted got damaged when lightly handled a couple of days after painting them, and that was a case of primer, contrast paint, and two coats of washes. I've gotten into the habit of varnishing anything that I paint predominantly with contrast paints as a precaution since then.
That being said, I've also used it as a technique when I want a fast and dirty highlight on something, by painting contrast paint over a more stable coat, letting it dry for an hour, then rubbing with my thumb to catch the edges I want to stand out (specifically I have used this on Necron Warriors, painting their weapons with black templar over a metallic coat, and abrading it to have the edges shine).
Thank you! I love the goobs and he's usually very scientific with his methods but the fact that each model was base coated with an airbrush with the same colour is where the test becomes a lot less useful for me personally.
I have had issues with paint flaking off occasionally but had no idea why it would happen on some minis and not others, the contrast paint weakness is an interesting point and I'll look out for that in future.
I agree. I use inks and vallejo paints and I commonly have issues with paint rubbing off. In that case, undercoating/varnishing is important.
Priming’s essential if you’re brush painting which is why it’s the done thing. Airbrushing wasn’t anywhere near as common when these old rituals were established. I remember painting old Eldar without priming about 15 years ago and the paint’s own surface tension pulled the paint together rather than coating evenly. Paints and plastics have changed since then, though.
Varnishing has lots of applications like preserving layers while you work over the top of them (Vince Venturella does this a lot), preventing your own fingers from rubbing paint layers off (personal experience), making something tougher than it has to be for common use (eg. Store models used for demos which will have all sorts of hands and mishaps happen) or changing the reflectivity of the material like matting down satin paints with a matte varnish.
Amen, preach it brother! :D
I brush paint. If I showed you my primed and unprimed you wouldn't not be able to tell the difference. I have about 50% of both. It's nonsense left over from metal mini era.
@@CloudianMHI've seen tons of unprimed paint fall apart. My dry palette is unprimed, and the paint is constantly peeling off.
@@CloudianMHJust found a model where the paint is all coming off the moment I pick it up and handle it. I can take the paint off the corners just by stroking my finger across it. Priming is absolutely necessary.
I have never had any noteworthy issues at all with basecoat-only, be it brush-on or airbrushed. It's true that a brush-on basecoat is a little less sturdy and may rub off on raised edges if you touch it too much, but if you use a painting handle (you should), it's a non-issue.
I've been painting minis (both GW plastics and my own resin prints) for about 4 years now, and have never - not once - used primer. After varnishing, I haven't had any problems with paint rubbing off my models (and even without varnish there seems to be very little of that, if at all). No scratches either.
I firmly believe that priming is a holdover from the days of pewter models, where it absolutely made sense because acrylics really don't stick well to metal surfaces on their own. But for resin and plastic models? There is really no need whatsoever to prime.
This was a cool video. But I feel a follow up test could be useful! One which mostly focuses on brushed-on paint only, and of different colours.
You and Midwinter Minis hepled me to start collecting AND painting again after 20 years of break, I started again with cadian trooper and I'm more confident thanks to your videos. And thanks to this one I understand how priming your minis impaxt them. Keep up the good work ^^
I know how you feel.
Squidmar Miniatures, Tabletop Minions and KiriothTV also helped me. (and many more by now, like Dana Howl, EonsofBattle, eBay miniatures rescue, Pete the Wargamer, Sam Lenz, Duncan Rhodes, Tabletopwitchcraft etc)
I made the mistake and started with Miniac. It was a mistake because his skills are quite initmidating. (but he has so many usefull advice, also he is nuts)
But with the help of Brent and "Uncle Adam" I was able to overcome this hurdle.
Not sure how none of them took much damage, my models always seem to scratch easily if I don’t prime them with a rattle can! 🤔
Agreed. Also if I don't wear gloves when I paint my fingers rub even dry paint off.
@@garfieldwithissuez Do you use a painting handle of some sort? That helped me a lot.
It is probably more down to the actual spray paint vs paint.
Painting handles are a must, makes life so much easier. I don’t wear gloves, so I’m always super paranoid about touching the model with my fingers! 😂
For painting handles you can use anything the right size and shape, at the moment I’m using some old cylinder shaped asthma inhalers. I use a bit of blue tack on the base of the models to attach them
This.. was the wholesome mini content I needed today. With bonus cat. Bonus cat never hurts. Thank you 🥰
Thanks especially for the final test with paintbrush on unprimed plastic. I don't have an airbrush so knowing for sure my type of painting reacts in this way is helpful. There was a model I had recently where I wasn't sure how good my priming coverage was and noticed having a really hard time getting paint to stick to certain recessed parts of the model where I think there was basically no primer, and suspected this was the reason.
This is what 2020 has finally brought Brent to.
Oh my goodness! 😂
Thanks for this awsome video on experimentation. You made the comment in the video that there are many different types of paints out there which could lead to different effects. Interestingly, Vallejo's description of the Game Color range indicates the following, 'The formulation of these colors has been developed signed taking into account that some of these figures are used in tabletop games, so that Game Color is manufactured with a revolutionary new resin which offers extraordinary resistance to the damage caused by frequent handling.' It is possible this gave the unvarnished models you painted added durability which is really interesting to note. Personally, when using Vallejo Model Color, I've had to varnish my miniatures as the paint is not as durable. Especially on metal/pewter where I've had the paint rub right off as you show in your video.
Some techniques like wet blending or even dry brushing are easier or better done with a primed surface. If the bottom layers of paint aren't properly stuck, then the brush work will pull them right off
Paint technology has come a very long way since I started in the 80s. I was surprised how well the paint covered that grot. That being said, I always prime and varnish my models. Oils from handling and foam carriers, dropping them etc all take its toll. It’s worth it to me to protect my models over time. Also I like the way the matte varnish darkens my paints slightly adding a depth of color.
Fun experiment! I first started painting minis ~40 years ago. Lead minis with the paints available back then, when subjected to handling with fingers during play, had paint rub off fairly easily *unless* you primed and varnished. The difference was *stark* and impossible to overlook. I had so many minis with shiny elbows, knees, heads, and base rims where lead polished with finger oils peeked through. Once I'd built the habit of priming and varnishing, I never changed even though the paints, primers, varnishes, and model material certainly have. Given Vallejo, GW, Army Painter et al all sell primers and varnishes, it's certainly not in their interest to disabuse customers of that habit. Thus, we still prime and varnish whether it's needed or not. And I intend to keep doing it!
Just the sheer enjoyment you can read from his face makes this a delightful video.
Brent: "It seems that priming and varnishing your models isn't as important as-"
Me: "HERESY DETECTED! FOR THE EMPEROR!"
What I liked the most is the nauhty face and the mixed feelings I experienced.
It must be nice to do that after years of containment and care when manipulating minis... *"Break the dam! Release the river!!"*
That said, I was also dying to take the box out of your hands, the shakes were more harmful to me than to the actual minis...
Love your videos, I hope we get some more on the "hobby science" topic ;)
Thanks!
I think what really helped is that the paint was applied in thin coat with airbrush. The thinner the layer the harder it is to crape off the paint. And you gave them full 24h to completely dry.
I always primer my minis, but almost never varnish if I'm not doing oil paint washes.
Thing about this primary test is that it only displays that very light plastic models don’t loose that much paint when impacting another plastic surface and then settling.
That really isn’t the failure case for paint in a lot of cases, think about the amount of paint you loose on a car when you reverse into a post vs when you scrape along a wall.
Most paint on minis is stripped either chemically by oils, or by the friction of being dragged across rough terrain or packing foam.
The days of paint just falling off models when touched is pretty exclusive to resin and metal, not plastic. Still a fun test. And amusing footage.
Really amazed at the low damage to the minis themselves.
Also priming plastic has the advantage of allowing you to paint with very thin paint straight away without it pooling up.
I guess the minis being painted by an airbrush had much influence on their paint sticking to then
this
That is an interesting point!
I love this video. As a guitar player that has "PISS HANDS", my guitar strings corrode faster, so when painting models, I have to be sure not to touch them very often or else I will for sure peel paint off revealing the primer. I would imagine that sweat and oils in the hands are what would cause a mini to get scuffed easier. Especially for the gamers with Piss Hands. Would love to see a touch test.
Enjoyed the video, Brent!
Though I feel the results are more a testament to how good base coating with an airbrush is rather than how "not that bad" not priming is. I definitely remember painting minis unprimed and having the paintjob rub off like that even as much as weeks later. I would recommend looking into the chemical differences between primer and the Game Air paint that you undercoated with! Could make for an interesting video!
I believe the key is that most painters do not wait twenty fours after priming or base coating to start painting
Some of my miniatures were primed 20 years ago and still haven’t been painted.
Yeah, you should wait AT LEAST 24 hours for primer to cure, ideally 3-5 days ( going off of my experience with rust-oleum rattle cans at least).
@@astronomicafilms 🤣🤣🤣
@@astronomicafilms absolutely; always wait 24 years between priming and painting.
It is funny as a professional painter I have always primed my surfaces as the paint will adhere better in the long run as well as application troubles are lessened. I enjoyed your process but I will always prime when I do start painting my mini's. I have had troubles when painting "dodgy" surfaces and using gesso on surfaces to get better paint adhesion. I am glad to know that it does not seem to matter with little plastic models, but I will still prime and coat my work. Thanks Brent another sweet video!
So validating for someone who doesn't normally varnish to see that those little buddies were ok
You dont have to varnish but priming definitely makes a difference with how brushed on paint sticks to a mini. Not so much airbrush, that makes the paint stick to the mini better.
@@chaoscultist5679 yep I do prime. Zenithal helps to see the details anyway
"15 minutes is an eternity when your goblin buddies are in danger"
aw, poor guys
It's been my experience that (for plastic models at least) the primary need for varnish is to keep the oils in your fingers from damaging your paint job. The secondary use for varnish is to reduce glossiness (or increase it w/ a gloss varnish). Especially if you use paints from different lines, some are glossier than others and often I'll want an even level of matte/silk sheen, with maybe some choice bits highlighted in glossy varnish (guts, lenses, etc).
Also, if a model still has any mold release agent on it, an airbrush/rattle can prime will often stick in ways that paint on basecoat won't. Finally, if you've been playing with your models for a while before you start painting them, there's likely some oil on the minis that will make the paint have a harder time sticking... Giving your unpainted models a wash in warm soapy water can really help when you finally get around to painting them after you've been playing with them for a couple years.
In my experience basecoats, either primed or painted on, tend to stay intact on plastic models. It's as you put more and more layers on top of the basecoat where damage can occur. That's why I always varnish. Plus it evens out your paint jobs :)
I do modelbuilding for many years for (1:35 ww2 tanks/soldiers/ Dioramas) and i never primed .
Now i got into War gaming and i needed to start using prime.
It's exactly like you say, i miss my right hand and i'm not able to hold my mini's in a propper way .
I'm always touching freshly painted parts way to often and primer works for for that.
Really important to et the primer dry and harden for a good amount of time.
For me the zenithal highlights are definitely worth the cost of priming! 🙌
As an armature only having to worry about keeping my layers thin and colours matching is a life saver! 😃
I did a comparison test years ago on priming. I used plastic spoons for test subjects. I scuffed a few, used primers, used paint without primer, painted over primers and let some dry for 24hrs and some only an hour. I then used Tamiya tape over them and did pull tests. After all that I determined the most durable combination - prime, wait for 24hrs, paint, gloss varnish, then mask or weather depending on what you want to do next and then final varnish layer. I pretty much just proved what I had always been told was the best way.
Very interesting! It's a pitty that your comment kinda got lost in the shuffle of all these comments!
Those were some nice whippys!
I absolutely love the look of joy on your face as you are tossing around these minis
Awesome video, but i think it has two main issues:
- Everything was sprayed/airbrushed, thicker coats from a brush can be much more sensitive. Its not just an issue of fresh vs. 24h cured paint.
- Fingers on a human skin can be much harsher than just rattling around in plastic.
Okay, this was very cool but not surprising given the type of damage used in the test (loved watching your face though!!!). My question: what about rubbing, and oils from fingers deteriorating paint over time? Coming from the art world, I was taught to prime and later spray seal my canvas not because it would guard against major damage like this but because it would guard against handling. The oils on human skin break down paint.
What a fun video. Impossible to not smile through the stress testing parts
This is a love letter to the durability or Vallejo paints is what it is! I had paint chip off the model last night during the wash step using Citadel paints. If I can remove it with a paint brush, my fingers will take it off for certain. For me, I will continue to prime and varnish.
This is good science. Sometimes you have a hypothesis that just isn't born out by the data and the only way to learn that is to do the experiment and see what happens. Even though the result was basically "none of these things have a discernible impact" Im glad you still posted the video.
Things you might consider testing in future:
• Heat (not just high temperature necessarily but also rapid transition from cold to hot and hot to cold: I know for instance that one of the things considered to warp guitars most frequently is storing them in a place that gets hot and then cold again, like on an external wall above a radiator or whatever)
• Abrasive surfaces (you could put some sandpaper in the box and shake them or something)
• Grease/oil/etc
• Water/humidity/etc
• Any other dirt/grime/solvents/etc that they might commonly come into contact with, like sugary or salty residue from fingers, etc.
Plus of course minis made from different materials:
• Resin
• Different plastic(s)
• Metal(s)
Excellent experiment! The other thing to note is if you use a glossy primer paint will be harder to stick. I accidently bought some white gloss primer and it took several coats of paint before it would stick and not scratch off.
This is interesting and I think the most useful takeaway from the experiment is that we shouldn´t be so worried about damage during transportation and storage. However, it seems that manhandling your minis during games definitely damages them.
You could try making another experiment where you give your minis a few layers of highlights and then just move them around with your hands for a couple of hours. It´s clear you have the mental fortitude for something like that XD
5 seconds in and Brent makes a delightfully goober-y face at the misfortune of those poor grots 😂
really happy youtube has been slapping me with WH content, got me back into painting my new crons
nice test, and besides fingers removing paint before done painting, it also help paint stick. some paint on some plastic is simply rejected until some time where you keep fighting it on.
after drying, finger "moist" can dissolve the paint over time. primer helps the paint still stick to the model but varnish is the protective layer here.
I imagine that both can help protect the paint from cracking or melting when exposed to cold and heat and maybe also other factors from sunlight.
usually paint faints away in sunlight, especially red.
Awesome video, I hope your arms are okay after that workout. As a note from someone who has carried minis incorrectly, it's usually rubbing against other minis (other color transfer), and the oils from your hands (reduced color payoff or flaking) that I've noticed. Keep up the great work!
Wow Vallejo wasn't kidding around when they say they've formulated their game paints for rough handling. Wonder how the other brands would hold up? :O Thanks for sharing this test with us!
Seeing this, I recall old, old advice I got from pops (an old air plane kit builder) when I first got into the hobby 15~ years ago, and using your fingers to rub off paint was an old way of creating highlights.
And looking at that poor space goblin, yeah, that's eerily similar to using a Deck Tan drybrush.
I knew this day would come!
brendt no! halloween is long gone enough with the horror show. scratched minis are spooky enough
the protective properties of the varnish is actually a secondary reason for me to use it. My primary reason is the more equal finish and sealing in grass. Priming for me also has the function of prepping the undertones so yeah even though the protective reasons aren't there, still plenty of reason to do it
Do you think the smaller particle and thinner coats of the airbrush had something to do with it though? Be interesting to see the results of brush painted as well
Yes!
I am one of those heretics that never primed even a single of their minis. By now I also use an airbrush for my basecoat, which does help a bit, but even if you just brush it on, it holds decently unless you keep touching the model while painting (in that case, it does tend to rub off a bit on raised edges if you're not careful, but that's why I use a painting handle. May also depend on the paint used though, in my brush-on days all I had was ArmyPainter, while currently I mainly use ProAcryl).
Once you finish painting and seal the model, I haven't had even the slightest issues with paint loss over countless play sessions with players that will consistently ignore my rule to only touch minis at the base.
My own experience matches up with how easily paint rubs off raw plastic before it's had at least a week to fully cure.
Also, another thing I noticed over time is that the extra grip primer provides for paint makes the behavior of a wider variety of paints, at different viscosities, more predictable. Raw plastic acts "greasy" to certain brands of paint, or at certain levels of thinness. This can result in more layers of paint being required to get an even, non-splotchy coat. And that gums the surface up more than necessary.
With durability over time, well, there may not be as much of a big difference between primed and un-primed. I've always read that as acrylic paint cures, it bonds tighter and tighter to the surface it's on. And absolute curation can take weeks or even months. I've heard people say that old minis that had been painted ten years ago are incredibly resistant to having the paint scratched off. At that point, the acrylic molecules had practically fused to the underlying plastic.
In my eyes priming is important in two cases: Metal minis (the paint seems to fall off easier on flat surfaces, so a thicker paint layer [priming + color + others] helps keeping the things in place) and making undertones (if you are going to use contrast paints it should be grey, if not you should make it black and then a cenital white airbrush ). Or... well... I usually prime with the basic colour of the mini scheme (blue for lizardmen, green for nurgle, etc...)
Definitely an interesting experiment and result, but my understanding (and I could be wrong) is that there are two important factors that the experiment didn't fully consider:
- Airbrushing gives a coverage much closer to a primer than brush painting. Something about the physics of spraying apparently means that airbrushed paints tend to adhere a lot better than brushed paints. Again, I'm no expert - this could be an urban legend.
- A key factor in how models wear over time is the buildup of natural oils. Varnish helps a ton with this, but priming also helps. From how you described and showed the experiments, this wouldn't have been replicated particularly well.
Again, cool experiments and interesting results, it's just important to understand the implications of it not mirroring natural use.
Please do a similar video for metal and resin minis. Specially metal.
I've always said it doesn't make that much difference on plastic models. As a kid/teenager I just used to shove all my models into a big box like that, put them in my bag and walk a mile to my best mates house for a game. I must have done that hundreds of times over the years. Most of them weren't primed.
I still have some of those models, and whilst the plastic ones took some pretty bad damage in terms of fragile bits snapping off (RIP spears and lances...), the paintwork held up pretty well.
However, with metal models it's another story entirely. The paint chips like crazy, and I realised this quickly as a kid. To start with I used to wrap them in tissue paper to protect them, but that didn't hold up. Eventually I realised that I was going to have to start priming and varnishing them properly if I wanted my paint jobs to survive.
I think this experience with metal minis is where this idea that you MUST prime and varnish comes from. Back in the day, all models were metal. So the prevailing wisdom that's been passed down from one generation of mini painters to the next is that you have to prime and varnish very carefully or you can say goodbye to your paint jobs.
Obviously companies such as GW, Vallejo etc. are more than happy to go along with this, so that they can sell you more products.
Thanks for another great video Brent.
Yep, reflects my experience too, excellent science Sir! What will blow some minds is that as far as I can see GW primer sprays aren't anything but normal paint, nothing about them is specifically for priming despite the label, they are just spray acrylics. They don't surface etch or have any specific priming qualities.. Effectively you are just giving your minis a base coat.
Except an aerosol spray DOES have special adhesion proerties over a thick layer of brushed on paint.
@@teagancombest6049 That still isn't the same as a spray primer. That's just spray paint.
Metal Minis, as mentioned below, is why prime and varnish. And they wouldn't have done nearly as well under that abuse.
Also, Vallejo Game colors are boss when applied properly. You're choosing the right paint for sure!
I guess I worry more about finger oils and grime when varnishing more than knock about scratches
I dont always have a problem with scratches or dropping models, what I dont find most common is rubbing off paint when handling. Maybe it's the oils, sweat, or micro texture of your finger prints that do the real damage. (As Midwinter Minis tried when testing black) Would be an interesting test.
nice one. It's been a couple of years for me to paint a mini, but in regards of priming i found it most important for metal models or when you got a mix of metal and plastic models and need consistend results with the same painting techniques.
For the abuse test, it was a nice aproach but i think the most damageing sources for minis are harder materials (metal minis or stones) and the act of frequent touching as our hands come with chemicals and abreasive properties quite demanding.
Love it when our favorite UA-camrs do tests like this.
I think a good reason for priming is to create a predictable surface both in texture and color. Especially when doing translucent airbrushing passes, the underlying color is especially important.
To me, a varnish is applied to create a smooth surface that makes washes and decals decisively easier. The flat varnsish in the end is used to create the desired finish.
As your Video suggests, the steps are not necessary for the durability of the paintwork. A test you could make is how easily "fresh" paint wipes off of primed surfaces? I don't think you tried that.
Using primer and varnish likely elevates the painting results, at least in my books
Yes the way he paints the unprimes mini at the end is very different from how I paint a primed mini. I use thin coats over a zenithal underpainting. You cant do that without priming and you cant use thin paints on raw plastic, it will just bead up and fall off.
Doing that to the grots reminds me of when I was a kid playing with my Heroscape minis
I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into testing this stuff that I often wonder about but don't have practical means to thoroughly test. Your positivity is contagious and inspiring. Keep up the great work!
I think another major damage point is rubbing of skin on the model. This can cause a lot of friction ware, especially for models that have movable components (ex. Craftworld heavy weapon platforms), where twisting these parts requires a fairly tight grip on the model. Your skin will have a higher coefficient of friction on a model than they do on each other.
This was quite informative and unexpected.
While you uncoverd one part of the "paint unprimed models", there is something I have discovered with the Space Marines of the time of your Goblins (second edition 40k Starter box set):
The paint does not hold onto the mini while you paint it. Large surfaces have the habit of letting your paint "run off". (more problem with newer citadel colours, not so with the second edition citadel pots)
But this issue is also with many of the "craft store primers" i have encountered locally. (thats why I stay with Army Painter/Citadel rattle cans)
But overall I think this "you have to prime and varnish your models" is more based on the "a long time ago metal mini era".
I have some minis (okay most of mine!) from that time, and 20 years in a not proper box + moving some times took a toll on all those that were not varnished.
Also the metal minis hitting each other in a situation you simulated, would cause severe damage to the paintjob (even with primer).
But it will also take the minis apart after some time, except for those 1 piece metal minis (i hope).
I'd love to see this again but with metal minis! :)
HOOO BOI I can't imagine there's anything you can do to get them to survive that kind of abuse! I certainly have to treat my infinity models like little precious ancient artifacts for fear of chipping my paintjobs!
4:04 the bartender begins shaking your cocktail. Suddenly a time warp loop traps him in a ever increasingly fast loop until he shakes your drink faster than the speed of light
Priming is more needed on metal minis and soft plastics. The hard plastics keep on the modern acrylics on themselves surprisingly good. Still i prefer to prime everything with spray, as it gives a nice base color i can start with, and can spare time with a whole army.
Still i loved this contest, and i would like to see some again with a metal and a resin and a soft plastic too.
Would have been nice to put some in a tumbler with foam. We put our models in there because its soft, but its also abrasive, and the vibrations of travel will rub off your paint over years.
The primer is more for metal minis...and some of the resin minis. Some plastics kind of need the primer more than others, often when using some of the other plastics from various toys in bringing it into a project. I tend to prime after part of my basing, using the primer to also seal in the glues and other things there for a more consistent painting.
Priming has a favorable effect on washes applied afterwards.
I've found that the varnish used before the wash has MUCH more of an effect on washes. Why would primers affect them at all? They're hidden under multiple layers of paint.
@@rogthepirate4593 Washes can be applied directly over a primer coat. That's the situation I was considering. ie applying a wash over bare plastic is unlikely to get a desirable result or look.
@@psibitful2 Ohh. Yeah, with that I can definitely agree.
Those old 2nd edition grots hold up so well compared to some models, and thats sad seeing as it's because a lot of other ork kits are old.
Another reason to always primer coat your miniatures is because some paints may not properly cover otherwise. Naomi of the "Sword n Steel" channel did a video where she only used the items given to someone in the "Space Marines: Assault Intercessors + Paints Set". On the second marine she started to try to base coat it in the "Corax White: Base" it did not work well by itself.
The following is a link to that video and the part in question starts around 6:22.
ua-cam.com/video/asUa0GZH4XU/v-deo.html
Also thank you Brent for another fun video.
Ha-Har .. Yes I to did this experiment 20 years ago .. And found it very interesting .. I then started just washing my white metal pewter with black inks and painted the colour straight onto the model .. it was great for Orks as the metal colors were always so easy to do ... I then sealed them in a clear coat .. so much time saved doing the hoard 🖖😎💚
I have to say I often don't use varnish, except when I need the matte to pull it all together, the gloss to gloss something up like blood or sometimes, very rarely to have a savepoint in between, but then I also don't play with the minis, but I always prime, even if for the zenithal. Also it sometimes help with minor building issues, like some very small gaps or rough flash removal.
i would trust this man when it comes to advertising good stuff.
You essentially used goblin green as your primer there. Paints achieve much better adhesion through the airbrush. It's an entirely different story if you do the same with a brush. Some colours may still stick relatively well, others may be impossible to apply without a previous layer of paint. Factory new models can also behave differently than old plastic. I did a similar experiment with just one model, using death guard green as my first layer of brush on primer (with a few hours of drying time before the next layer). Even weeks after drying, paint came down at the corners from touching the model with my fingers.
I don't know if I'm upset that I've wasted so much time varnishing all my plastics or happy I'll be saving the time and effort in the future. I guess I've never liked the effect matt varnish has on metallics so... happy? Great video.
Vallejo Game paints are also advertised as not needing primer on plastic, and being tougher to withstand more abuse.
Not sure how big of a difference (if any) it actually makes, but that could be part of why they did so well. It's good information to know, though. :)
If you really want to test it hardcore: Take a wash bag (for fine cloth in the washing machine), but your minis into it and then.... into the washing machine, take a program without water (we have one combined with a dry, and just turn the the heat to lowest level, 20°C, so you have no water and no heat). Then let it run for a half an hour. Best stress test you could do (call it "Mealstrom of Death").
That hand-rubbed effect looked suspiciously like heavy drybrushing, catching all the edges and raised detail. I wonder how much mileage there is in incorporating it into a batch-painting technique?
- Paint all over with mid-highlight colour
- Leave 24 hours
- Paint all over with midtone
- Rub mini vigorously with fingers no more than thirty minutes later
- drybrush top highlights.
You truly make me laugh my friend! Always informative and fun ... not just watching you do "stuff". Have a great day\holiday season.
I like the fact you are about the only one that uses Vallejo, I’m a subscriber!
I laughed hard seeing your faces when punishing those poor grots haha
It'll depend on the paint used as well, here's looking at you VMC Black Grey!
Varnishing is also useful if you're doing things like enamel washes or fixing pigments and want to minimise potential damage from any solvents, not to mention giving a uniform matt finish :)
YES ALWAYS PRIME! 😊
Before I started priming correctly with a spraycan my paint would rub right off like yours during the painting process, and now all my un-primed minis are having paint chip off if you even look at them wrong months after they've been painted (they were varnished to protect them), so drying time hasn't made any difference 😞 now I spread the good word of properly primed minis wherever I go :D
Also it seems airbrushed/spraycan paint sticks to surfaces better than brushed on paint, but im not 100% sure. It would have been cool if you brushed on goblin geen on some of them for the test, but still a helpful video!
Tossing Goblins :D
My priming is normally undercoating the entire figure with their shadow colour or their laying down their base colour.
I rather think it is why you prime and what your purpose is. I had been painting minis for years before I used a primer. Then I found when I switched to metals, 25mm Napoleonic, that acrylics, which I had just switched to, were too bright on bare metal. So I followed a hobby magazine and primed black. This made it hard work for the red tunics on British troops but the minis did not shine like beacons. When I got into 40k I found that if I used dark grey, colour application was much better and the colours still did not appear unrealistically bright. So my purpose was colour control not tough paint jobs. Of course varnish came in when I found that colours wore off models with constant use. Especially on points like elbows, shoulder pads etc..
That intro looks like a very interesting cooking show.
Brent's fungal salad
I love all your content, but your experiments are my favorite.
I think it's also worth noting that you've suggested the "fresh" paint on unprimed minis comes off easier than "longer set" paint. I wonder if it's the difference between airbrushed paint and brushed on paint. Those minis with paint brushed on and left to dry for 5 days, then going through the same tests would be very interesting (again, spray prime 2 sets, brush paint all sets, varnish a primed set and varnish an unprimed set - that seems like it covers all bases).