Yes, less than 4 minutes in and already hit the Like icon - it doesn't matter what the rest of the show brings, that will make me chuckle manically to myself for the rest of the day.
Hi Dan & Mick et All, great video! This is Ignazio, from Jensen Speakers. I'd wish to chime in and add one more ingredient in this discussion... Not everybody may be aware of the fact that most speakers sound and measure differently, depending on their own impedance. Or rather: the same speaker, say a Jensen Vintage Reissue C12N, or a Celestion V30 etc., will sound different if built with a 4Ohm, an 8Ohm or a 16Ohm voice coil. This is true, in different degrees, for any brand and any model of speaker. Usually the 16Ohm version will be slightly brighter, and possibly slightly more efficient. The 4Ohm version will be darker, slightly quieter. The 8Ohm will be somewhere in the middle. This is due to the "moving mass" of the speaker (the complex of membrane + voice coil + former) being the lightest in 16Ohms and the heaviest in 4Ohms. Depending on how the speaker is made, and what kind of cone, voice coil former, wire, etc. this may be more o less evident, but it's usually noticeable in an A/B test. Therefore, part of the fact that many players like better the higher impedance speakers is also due to the increased presence and apparent loudness. Hope this helps... or helps maybe just contributes in deepening the rabbit hole, hah!
Yes yes, impedance matters, matching amp and speaker impedance matters, wiring speakers in series and parallel matters but the point of all this, hoping it would have been stated in your final conclusions was a wordy description of the notable differences between 4, 8, 16 ohms as the audio across the studio speakers and audiophile headset doesn't really ring through and also worsened by the UA-cam video compression algorithm. So, how would you describe the difference? I got the sense that 16 ohm was a cleaner, higher quality but quieter experience? What does the resonance feel like? How is the perception of the "breathing" amp and air movement in to the room? Feedback? Pinch harmonic differences? Which one would be great for a 50 person cafe/bar blues riff vs a rocker crowd or jazz crowd?
I learned by building amps . . . the lower the impedance, the sharper the attack with a little more emphasis on higher frequencies - Key word is "LITTLE". Think of the difference between single coils and humbuckers - that's how I think of the difference between 4 ohms & 16 ohms. I prefer 4 ohms with humbuckers & pedals. But if I was clean with a single coil strat, I may prefer 16 ohms to thicken the receipe. Also, if you play in stereo with a Double Tracking Pedal, you would want a thinner sound going to each amp, this way they'll mix better on each other giving a thick but more clear sound. Speaker EQ's & magnet materials play a role in this as well. 100W Twin + 4 ohms + Ceramic Speakers with Higher Sensitivity and your going to have ear piercing attack. After a decade of experimentation, I believe that you pick the guitar first, then the pedals, then the amp, then the cab.
When you go down in ohms it just opens the taps the amp with 4 ohms is a good balance I run 4 but it doesn't have to speed of 16 ohms 16 definitely more accurate
Wow. JensenSpeakerVideos has a good point. The 16 ohm speakers sound brighter and more articulate. I think I'd go with brighter or darker depending on what amp I was using. Maybe 4 ohms on a Fender to take the cleans and 16 ohms on Marshalls to give them some help.
Hi fellas. I just want to say thank you. Rewiring cabs back and forth, controlling all variables. That is a huge undertaking and a lot of work. I would call this the definitive impedance comparison. So thank you, it is very much appreciated.
Stop me if this is addressed later in the video, but...one of the reasons they might set the cab up as 4 ohm instead of 16 is that it's safer for the amp. 16 ohm is both speakers in series, so if one driver blows (or one of the spade connectors works loose) it'll present an open circuit to the amp and will thus be a hazard to your output valves and/or transformer. In 4 ohms, the drivers are in parallel and if one fails it'll just double the impedance (ie just one of the 8 ohm speakers). Still not great for the amp, but a hell of a lot less damaging than an open circuit.
It's not a warranty issue, so why would they care? Maybe it is in combos. An unscrupulous manufacturer might see it as an opportunity to shift more units.
@@digiscream You 're right but if it happens when your amp is at full volume, you will blow the second driver if is not able to stand the power (RI²) as the amount of current will be doubled. I think that was a common issue on old amp when driver were not able to stand as much power as today.
@@alannedelec2714 - yep, true...probably only a problem for folk using 2x12" cabs with G12H or Creambacks these days. Still, I'd rather go parallel than series myself, just for that added bit of safety. I personally don't like that speakers-on-the-raggedy-edge sound anyway, so my cabs are rated around double the max output of my amp anyway. The transformer's an issue too, but as shown in this video a lot of output transformers can handle a mismatch. I guess the main point of this is that if a speaker blows, you should really stop what you're doing as soon as you hear it, and parallel speakers _might_ save you but series speakers _definitely_ won't :)
trying to boil this down to a TL;DR (or DW), correct me if I'm wrong: -When matching impedances; 16 ohm output and speaker equals more low end due to using more windings -When mismatching impedances, "better to go from 8 ohm to 16 ohm" (37:41) than 16 ohm to 8 ohm? Due to increased current and "asking the output transformer to do more work" - mismatched: 4 ohm vs 8 ohm, 8 ohm seems louder due to correctly matching impedance -(39:15) Rectiverb "seemed tighter" going 4 ohm out to 8 ohm speaker
THE BEST first 3 minutes of any video I think I've ever watched! The playing, the laughter, Dan's laugh is just so infectious ahaha! This is why I love this channel, one of if not the best channels on UA-cam. End of. Amazing
Good point at the end of the vid. Wiring speakers in parallel is said to cause less rolling off of high frequencies. Perhaps we need another video with 2 x 16-ohm speakers in parallel versus 2 x 4-ohm speakers in series.
My fav thing about this episode is that it proves playing valve amps LOUD really does inspire and take your playing to greater heights. Absolutely some of their best playing ever.
Maybe it's me or maybe lost to youtube compression, but it's hard to tell to be honest. With that being said I could see Dan's point of 4ohm having more low end. I guess that's why we see bass amps operating with 2, 4 and 8 ohm versus guitar amps typically using 8 and 16ohm. But then again bass amps also push alot more power 500+ watts versus the 100w guitar amps.
I hear *absolutely* no difference at all! It's like it usually is for me. But, Mick has told me a few times that the difference was there in the room, and it would not surprise me if that was the case again. On the other hand, I'm beginning to think my ears are really not sensitive enough to notice. Saves me money I guess.
the reason bass amps generally use lower impedance has nothing to do with sound quality and everything to do with voltages, since they are normally running higher wattages. Example - 200 watts into 4 ohms would be 28.2V and 7.07A, the same wattage (200) into 16 ohms is 56.6V and 3.54A, so the voltage doubles to generate the same power.
@@robblaize weird, I always thought that you'd generally prefer lower current situations. So, the step from 25 V to 50 V isn't a big deal for wire insulation, but you can use basically half the amount of copper for speaker cables and speakers. Transformer secondary doubles, though (half the cross section area, but quadruple the wire lenght). Well, i guess it is at it is :)
Another informative show guys. I toured for two years with a Bandmaster reverb head (4ohms), a Marshall 4x10 cab and a custom-built EV cab, both 8ohms. The mis-matched impedance, when using only one cabinet, acted as an attenuator, letting me use the inefficient Celestions of the Marshall alone in smaller clubs, the more efficient EV alone in slightly larger ones, and on rare occasions, both together, matching the 4ohm impedance for a glorious sound.
No surprise: You were using an 8 Ohms speaker with a 4 Ohms amp. The other way around would have brought smoke signs from the amp. Too much requested current would have melted the amp output transformer secondary winding.
Dan: write a small book or sellable pdf on instruments, amplification, and electricity. No joke the way you explain things it would be a killer crash course for the electrical engineering concepts in amplification. Love you dudes
Dan said something interesting that I think is worth repeating: there’s a difference between manufacturing process to cut costs and sonic changes. They may affect each other but they also may improve a certain character. Manufacturers saving money does not equal bad tone.
Just look at Fender! A majority of what they have done has been to cut costs, like how they’re guitars are constructed. And yet, classics we all know and love!
I was going to mention Fender being cheap. But what's wrong with cheap and good? Early British amps were all multipurpose - my Hiwatt (1971) has 4-8-16ohms AND 100v taps on the output transformer - the 100v output being for extremely long runs in PA systems (big factories and outdoor events). It makes for a more expensive amp...but the potential market is bigger. It also explains why they frequently had four inputs, which we misuse to our advantage now. Since Fender amps were almost impossible to get until the 70's it meant all the British amps needed to have the same features, until P.A. amps came onto the market. My very first amp was ripped out of a fashion shop - A 40W TVM with three channels, two inputs each. It went wrong and I couldn't afford to take it to a repair shop - so my mother made it disappear when I was away one weekend. Like the tin drum I got as a birthday present. And the plastic bugle. And the cork gun which I discovered could fire gravel. But she did leave me a house, which nearly makes up for it. But not quite :-P
@@gabrielledebourg2487 I agree with guitars but the Hot Rod series imo is an example where lower price equals eh tone. If they managed to make Princeton Reverbs/Deluxe Reverbs at a similar pricepoint (as they sort of have recently)
I know Dan Boul recommends running his 65 Amps, if possible, at 16 ohms, to use the full amount of winds of the output transformer, while another friend says that is great of vintage Voxes, but likes vintage Marshalls to run at 8 ohms, with two 16 ohm cabinets. Here we go down another rabbit hole.
I've heard that in many places, but it doesn't make sense to me in technical terms. Even though you're tapping the signal at some point in the transformer's winding, the _entire_ winding is energized _all the time_. For example, TPS tried the 4Ω and 16Ω taps on the Marshall. Yet the amp has a feedback loop that is always attached to the 8Ω tap in this amp. That loop always gets signal from the transformer for feedback, no matter which of the taps actually has a speaker-load connected. My guess is that Dan Boul (and others repeating this claim) tried to explain why a sonic difference is heard on different taps, and maybe didn't have any other plausible explanation.
Mick, I'd like to mention that I find that this newly modded PRS really brings out something very nice in your playing. When you play a Strat, it sounds like you on a Strat. When you play the 335, it sounds like you on a 335. For some reason, when you play the goldtop PRS, it sounds like you. Delightful to listen to. and thanks for cracking me up this episode, really needed that
I have a hard time hearing any difference with my headphones. Imagine the heat on the wires would impact the gear more than the audio? Fascinating show today
All i can tell from my iphone speaker is that the tone of both of those Fender guitars is chewy and delicious! Will watch on my studio monitors for impedance later. Thanks guys!
Hey guys, love the show. This has been an extremely useful episode for me, since I have a Marshall DSL-40 with a 16 ohm internal speaker & an 8 ohm external output, and an Egnater Tweaker 15 with an impedance selector switch between 4, 8, & 16 ohm (currently run through a Fender 1 x 12" closed back cab @ 8 ohms). Have you ever heard of or seen the Ted Weber Z-Matcher? The Z-Matcher allows you to match the output impedance of your amp to impedances of speakers and cabinets that are not the same as your amp output impedance. Matches 2, 2.6, 4, 5.3, 8, and 16 ohms amplifiers to 2, 2.6, 4, 5.3, 8, and 16 ohms speaker systems, so the amp sees the impedance it wants, and the speaker sees the impedance it wants & includes an extra output jack (parallel) and a balanced and unbalanced line out with a level adjustment. I have used this in the past with a Princeton Reverb to run both the internal speaker and an external cab, and it works great. What are your thoughts on something like this?
My '81 Pro Reverb prefers 5.3 It's the perfect middle ground for dynamics, volume, and getting the speakers to move and show their character. Instead of the dual 4 ohm output Fender provides, I preferred running it to a single 5.3 ohm 4x12 cabinet.
@@ThatPedalShow late to this but just experimenting with my Handwired JTM45 and 16 vs 8 ohm. Reason that I’m chipping in here is just to mention that the Fryette Power Station lets you mismatch amp amp speaker same as the Z matcher.
Today you used the plexi. With plexi. Your last point at the end about 2 x 12’s: that would’ve made the most difference. Wiring in series humps. Wiring in parallel scoops. When you use a 4 x 12 at 4 instead of 16, you are simply removing the series nature which is only half of the total. 2 x 12’s are either series or parallel in total. That does make a profound difference. That would make a nice quick easy follow up to this. :)
I've not watched the video yet (will revisit this post afterwards) but.... many, many years ago I picked up the following nugget from somewhere that I can't remember. It was 'go for the highest impedance you can - the amp will have to fight harder and will be more dynamic'. Without ever conducting an A/B test I've always followed this advice. To the batca errrrrrr video! EDIT after watching. Dan n' Mick are saying more 'open/airy' at 4ohms on both amps. I have a slightly different take - I thought the 16ohm presentation was more 'saturated'. I'm not looking for a pedal platform so 'saturated' is fine for my DR103, a notoriously clean and dynamic amp. 16ohms might not be as dynamic, according to the Dan n' Mick test, so my received wisdom (possibly faulty memory) was wrong. Or not, since it wasn't my amp played at gig volume. But it's a taste thing and I'm happy.
Hilarious intro, outstanding outro, and a nerd out fest with great guitar playing and tones in the middle. Classic TPS format! I remember when I learned how a transformer works and it blew my mind that there was no direct conductive contact between the primary and secondary windings. All that electricity from the power plant that is stepped up and down on its way to our house, is wireless at those points. The magic of magnetic flux! Don’t even get me started on capacitors and tubes. Another wireless method of electron transfer! Any other electronics nerds out there? 🤘🤓
Great topic that needs exploration for sure! The one ‘elephant in the room that you didn’t discuss(unless I somehow missed it) is the Parallel vs Series different...the reason people always say “Marshalls always sound better at 16 ohms” is because of the wiring of a 4 X 12 cab....2 X 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel = 8 ohms....the other 2 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel = 8 ohms ......the each 8 ohm load wired together in series = 16 ohms total. Marshall amps sound better in 16 ohms(series). In my 2 X 12 with Marshall Super Lead(100W)....2 X 8 ohm speakers wired in Series = 16 ohms(series)! Sounds perfect. I tried 2 X 8 ohms in parallel @ 4 ohms.....Marshall sounded horrible. So it’s definitely not just impedance...many other factors...series vs parallel and 2 X 12 vs 4 X12. Matchless is 2 X 8 ohm speakers in parallel = 4 ohms....that’s the best set up for matchless 2 X 12. Marshall 4 X 12 @ 16 ohms is the gold standard and it’s using the full transformer windings. Even in a 1 X 12 ....a single 8 ohm speaker is fuller sounding because there are less windings of heavier wire on the speaker coil. 1 X 12 cabs are never 16 ohms....thinner wire and more windings on the speaker coil..thinner sound.
In my opinion, the biggest difference is that you had it wired in series for the 16 ohm vs in parallel for the 4 ohm. Parallel usually sounds better to me. So if you used two 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel for a total of 8 ohms, you may get a different result than using two 8 ohm speakers. Just my two cents.
What i took from this video is that Mick is bursting at the seams ready to crank up the amps and play some shows! The start of the video had me in stitches well played lads.
I've had a Fender Dual Showman (red knob, evil twin version) since new in 1990. I've played is through many different cabs. The one I miss the most is a old Peavey 4x12 running at 4ohms. It was huge and had silicone on the cones where they split, the deeper, warmer tone is what I liked. No Fender cab has matched that tone. Marshall come close. Looking into a Boogie.
Listening with headphones when it switches from 8ohms to 16ohms there is a small change in the “fullness” of the sound. Mostly in the low end. It’s like a loss of low end ambience. Hard to explain but I hear it. To be clear the 8ohms was the fuller sound.
What I found with my TSL 100 16ohm (cab and head) for a while now it seemed to have TOO much gain and compression, running any od or comp easily feedbacks and I could not tame it even in the crunch at low gain settings, but today I went 4 ohm (cab and head) and I got loads of headroom and it cleaned up dramatically! I now can run od pedals and Dyna comp in both channels! Sounds more early super lead. So many forums are fighting over this but maybe more distortion and higher watts make more of a difference. Thanx guys.
4 роки тому+3
You both were goddamly inspired on this. Amazing playing!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
I bought the Walrus Audio Ages, and it is INCREDIBLE. It replaces at least two other overdrives on my board. In 3rd position, it makes my humbuckers and Fender Princeton sound like fire breathing Marshall stack
I have personally found that 16ohm always sounds better. Have done 100's of gigs with my MI Iron Duke at both 8 and 16, it always seems to have more girth and sustain at 16ohms.
I've been playing a lot of "Doom" recently, so I knew exactly what you were doing when you started the Impy Dance. And hearty chortles erupted from my bosom. Thank you so much for doing a show on this topic, it's been one of fascination for me recently and you helped answer a lot of questions.
Whoosh. Barely, if at all, detected any difference myself. Maybe I’ve got cloth ears, maybe it’s more noticeable in the room, but I honestly went back and forth on whether I had a preference each time, or what differences I could detect. Keep taking care, guys.
There really shouldn't be much of a difference. Even in the room right next to the amp you'd really have to "look" for it. Your not crazy infact you should be proud of yourself for not convincing yourself there was a difference when there wasnt.
Listening on studio monitors here. With the lower impedance I heard a cleaner attack, less transformer saturation (if you are into recording you recognize that sound after a while), slightly less "graininess"... But since this wasn't a double blind test I might be deceiving myself. Although I'm generally pretty confident in my ears. Quite subtle anyways.
@@noisesoundtonevibe I was listening through my monitoring headphones but im certain had i turned on my monitors and listened through them i would have heard the same thing. Ive tried this "experiment" in person and there tons and tons of reports on the various forums on this topic and while some say theres a difference the science says otherwise. Theres so much that goes into what you hear. Even if theres a difference im certain its not a reproducible difference across the spectrum of different speakers amps etc. Im HIGHLY sensitive to any high end loss in my mixes and with my amp due to cable capacitance so im not one of those guys who just doesnt pay attention and says theres no difference. Most of the time id be the first to say there is a difference. But when it comes to selecting speakers/cabs get or use whatever you can thats convenient. The most important thing is the speaker itself not its impedance.
@@michaelinglis8516 I agree, the speaker makes a MUCH bigger difference. I still heard what I heard, and I wasn't really expecting to hear anything. I might try to set up a double blind test by downloading this video's audio and check that way. But again, I'm quite confident in my ears. In fact I watched some portions of the video while hiding my screen and could pick up the differences... Not a perfect test for sure, but still. Anyways, even if I hear it and I'm not fooling myself, I'm sure 98% of listeners would not hear it or care. Let's put it that way: it's not gonna make or break your tone, you might never explore it and not miss it at all, but if you're a tone tinkerer, you might find slight benefits to exploring the question.
I'm a fan of safety mismatching amp and cab impedance with non-master volume amps. I like to get them to a nice crunch and get all my dynamics from my guitars and sometimes cranking even a 25 watt amp can bury a band mix. I find the decrease in volume, while not massive, can sometimes be enough to be able to get them crunchy without introducing an attenuator into the signal path.
@@CarlyonProduction for instance running a head at 8 ohms into a 16 ohm cab. You'll notice a drop in headroom/output volume but its safe. I do this occasionally if I'm using a non-master volume amp and have to make it more manageable on a stage.
"We can dance if we want to. We can leave your friends behind. Cause' your friends don't dance, and if they don't dance, well they're no friends of mine."
@@arn999 that airy dynamic you can get from pedal or room instead of speaker that way this signal getting passed is clean and it helps when adding distortion and things like that cause in the 16 it might pick up to much freq
Oh yeah, thasa shoW! I like 16 ohm speakers because I perceive them to give a softer sound to the amp, and to be really pedal friendly, as pedals also can harden up the sound when you use a board full. But I can also hear what you are hearing here, with a fuller tighter sound at lower ohms. So many variables..
My impression from watching the video is that this is probably more of a “feel” thing than it was a difference in audio. I honestly couldn’t tell a difference.
I wasn't really watching when they did the sound test with the Matchless so it was definitely my ears that picked up the difference in tone. I was watching when Mick tested the Marshall and don't know if it was my ears or my eyes that detected a slight difference. The Mesa just sounded the same, mismatched impedance or not. I think Mick's (?) comment about the manufacturer's recommendations resonated most with me - the amps all sounded right with the cabinets and impedance settings they were designed for. I'd be interested to see them doing a similar show putting the heads through different cabs and seeing whether the 'signature sound' is easily accessible.
Kevin Betts I’ve got UA-cam Premium and was only listening to the video while I was at work. So I never could tell really when the they would reword the cabinets. I think like they said volume probably plays a huge factor, especially when the amp is cranked. I’m just saying with my Apple air buds and all the visuals cut off I couldn’t hear anything different to my ears. I believe the lower the ohms the harder it is on the gear long term. 16 ohms at least in car audio (I know it’s a different thing) is much easier of the speakers.
@@arnolddealiii4259 Hi! Why would a low impedance set up be harder on the gear since it was designed that way? Low impedance sure does implies operatong under higher current but also implies higher output transformer secondary winding section to let the higher current flow easily without overheating the winding which eliminates the risk of melting the winding insulation enamel that would lead to a short circuit in the output transformer. Since all is properly matched (speaker impedance to amp output impedance), I really don’t see why anything wrong would happen. Provided, of course, that the amp was properly designed.
@@arnolddealiii4259 Ah, that would explain why you wouldn't hear any difference. I was listening on my Creative Katana PC/Home Theatre audio system which gives a lot more scale to the audio. Regarding ohmage and gear, when it comes to solid state stuff you're more or less correct due to the way it works (the lower the impedance the higher the wattage output). Because valve amps work differently using the transformer (something Dan explains to a degree at the start) changing the impedance does not change the out power but mismatching the impedance strains the transformer and putting no load on the amp at all threatens to blow the transformer completely! Don't ask me why, I just use the gear I don't know how it works ...... although I know how to break it! 😎😎
Here's an interesting observation, Mojave Amps (out of business) were all wired with two parallel outputs and no impedence selector switch, the claim being, these Marshall-type switches are ultimately unreliable. Thus, the typical cab combinations were (1x12, =>16), (2x12,=>8+8=16), and (4x12, 16+16, 16+16 ohm like Marshall). They manufactured cabs and speaker selection/wiring to meet these designs. Unfortunately, they poorly described what they were doing and failed to make yardage out of it. It is a fantastic design once you understand it. Why? well now, for the three types of cabinets, any two cabinets can be plugged direcly in, and you have a viable combination of 16 Ohms o each side. Obviously Two 16s in parallell mean he amp itself is designed for 8. I run mine two 1x12s (16 each) stacked.
Great episode! In the end I think: it’s good to know all the options and what each option does (rolls off highs, increase volume, more clarity, etc) and then use that DEPENDING on what your setup needs. Some amps, with your setup (guitar, pus, cables, style of playing, etc) may be to bright for you, so you may then want to try the different things that rolls off highs and that could include impedance differences.
I recently changed from using a 4ohm cabs (Marshall 1960a) to 2x8 ohms with Celestion Greenbacks and the difference is immense, there's SO much more bottom end info in the signal, tons more clarity and I've had to turn the amp right down (power up for headroom though!)
2x8 ohms still comes down to 4 ohms, so it’s not a difference in impedance. It’s the G12Hs in your 1960A vs Greenback speakers you’re hearing. Use your highschool physics, there’s a reason they teach you them.
My baby-daughter started to laugh with Dan in the beginning :D Btw, was looking for that a few months back when choosing a Captor, didn’t find anything! So thx :)
FWIW here's what I heard across the board on all three test cases: Signals going through less windings on the transformers sounded flatter, less 3D, more coherent. Signals going through more windings sounded thicker, more 3D but also less coherent. On the Matchless, the lower impedance setting gave the sound a notable focus to it, but you could also feel the stereo field seem flatter (not in a bad way). The Marshall on the lower impedance setting lost some thickness and gained a smidge of clarity (that didn't need) so I liked it better at higher impedance. The tone on the Mesa didn't seem to change at all, but did become a bit flatter. This was my perception. Great show, thank you.
Thank you. I think we concur broadly. Flatter is a good way to describe what I was trying to get across about more/less harmonic ‘confusion’. Interestingly, in the room, the ‘flatter’ more ‘together’ sounds were generally preferred. But in the recording the extra harmonics maybe In the tone gives it more colour perhaps. So interesting!
There's a key problem with seeing the different taps as "signal going through more/less windings." That is, *all* of the transformer secondary is energized *all of the time* even if you only tap the speaker's signal from part of it. This is provable if you connect a meter to check voltage on any of the unused taps. Or if you touch an unused tap on a power transformer (well, no... don't do that!).
I learned this trick from Ken Fischer; On your Marshall 2203/2204/1959/1987, etc. Run your selector on 8ohm, then use a 25' speaker cable to your 16ohm cabinet. The longer cable acts as an inductor and will tighten up your low end, while smoothing out your highs.
That’s bs, cables do have parasitic inductance, but that value is *extremely* low, this does nothing audible to your signal. You’re making your amp work harder against the speakers, which not only makes them fight each other, but also makes the amp run less efficiently. Just match your cable.
Not for nothing, I’ve always heard it said that plexi Marshall’s are designed to be run at 8 ohms rather than 16 or 4 as they where intended to be run with 2 4x12 16 ohm cabs, just look at the blues breaker combo, it’s set up with 2 speakers running at 8ohm......
I have my 3 2x12 cabs wired for both 4/16 ohms on a switch. I highly recommend this mod. 4 ohms (parallel) is cleaner and punchier. 16 ohms (series) is smoother and dirtier. At 16 ohms there is more harmonics and it's better for playing with distortion. Generally speaking. The damping effect on the speaker changes wether your running series vs parrallel. Interestingly Fender always wired for paralell. And I believe Marshall would use series. Not sure how much the transformer windings are adding to that. Excellent show as always!
I have 3 Avatar cabs with different alnico/ceramic speaker mixes. Another interesting addition tonally is that they have 2 speaker inputs. Each speaker is wired to a jack. Depending on which speaker jack you use? You get a different tone as well because the signal is hitting one speaker before the other.
So I have a question about whether your 8 ohm speakers might operate slightly differently when wired either in series or parallel. Is it possible that the series or parallel wiring of two speakers might have an impact on the tone coming from both? Maybe the difference your are hearing is from the speakers being wired in series @ 16 ohms and in parallel @ 4? I dunno. Just spitballing. The difference in the wiring is the one variable you didn't really isolate.
Makes sense... at 16 ohms the speakers are in series; given that speakers are a reactive load the first speaker is going to impact the second, so you will certainly get volume differences, and probably phase differences between the two speakers.
The output transformer of a valve amp is just about the opposite of a high precision toroidal transformer in a high-end direct box designed for purity and transparency. Suspect the biggest factor in-play is the behavior of the transformer. It’d be interesting to hear what Wampler or Keeley might say about it.
I know most will have a lot of fun with the dance (it was brilliant), but thank you so much for doing this episode. The amount of work that you had to put in with rewiring speaker cabs must have been very time consuming. Great job as usual!
The "more together" comment on the parallel (4 ohm) wiring of the 2x12s versus the series (16 ohm) does make sense with the speakers both being hit with the signal simultaneously (parallel) versus one then the other (series). I wonder if that is due to a tiny time difference in the speaker movement in series wiring, as Dan touches on at the end of the video.
The “time difference” is going to be a few microseconds, if that long. Electricity travels through wires at speeds approaching the speed of light in a vacuum. You could run a speaker lead miles long and you wouldn’t notice any latency in speaker response.
I was going to comment just this as well. How come they didn't mention that the difference in sound and feel might have to do with the fact that wiring speakers in serial will sound different than wiring them in parallel?! The current just flows differently when they are in serial, and one amp "interfere" with the other, like the second one in the series might get an "altered" current/wave/sound caused by it running to a speaker before it. This should have been mentioned.
I couldn't hear a difference at all in the Matchless or Marshall between 4 and 16 ohms. It'd have been nice to have some footage of your thoughts on hearing the audio back as well though I guess that's what the Q&A is for, I'm very much looking forward to hearing your thoughts after having listened back to the audio.
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“Impy Dance” was possibly a simultaneous career high and low for TPS. I think we all loved that, thanks guys
i think tps might have peaked
Lowest brow, highest humour.
Definitely a peak. A high high peak.
Yes, less than 4 minutes in and already hit the Like icon - it doesn't matter what the rest of the show brings, that will make me chuckle manically to myself for the rest of the day.
They have to roll up the rug for the cap o'sea dance.
Dan's delayed realisation made that joke worthwhile. Never change guys.
You know Dan loves his Delays.
Hahahahaha hahah yeah the whole firs bit about impy dance and impudence. Hahahaha
@@mattgilbert7347 Well played sir. Well played.
Took me even longer.
@@Davepotnoodle Thank you kindly.
Hi Dan & Mick et All, great video!
This is Ignazio, from Jensen Speakers. I'd wish to chime in and add one more ingredient in this discussion...
Not everybody may be aware of the fact that most speakers sound and measure differently, depending on their own impedance.
Or rather: the same speaker, say a Jensen Vintage Reissue C12N, or a Celestion V30 etc., will sound different if built with a 4Ohm, an 8Ohm or a 16Ohm voice coil. This is true, in different degrees, for any brand and any model of speaker.
Usually the 16Ohm version will be slightly brighter, and possibly slightly more efficient. The 4Ohm version will be darker, slightly quieter. The 8Ohm will be somewhere in the middle. This is due to the "moving mass" of the speaker (the complex of membrane + voice coil + former) being the lightest in 16Ohms and the heaviest in 4Ohms.
Depending on how the speaker is made, and what kind of cone, voice coil former, wire, etc. this may be more o less evident, but it's usually noticeable in an A/B test.
Therefore, part of the fact that many players like better the higher impedance speakers is also due to the increased presence and apparent loudness.
Hope this helps... or helps maybe just contributes in deepening the rabbit hole, hah!
Wow. That's one thing I've never seen talked about when doing these sorts of comparisons. Thanks for sharing!
This is more informative than the video. Straight logical info, no frilly filler or feels. Thank you so much!
Yes yes, impedance matters, matching amp and speaker impedance matters, wiring speakers in series and parallel matters but the point of all this, hoping it would have been stated in your final conclusions was a wordy description of the notable differences between 4, 8, 16 ohms as the audio across the studio speakers and audiophile headset doesn't really ring through and also worsened by the UA-cam video compression algorithm. So, how would you describe the difference? I got the sense that 16 ohm was a cleaner, higher quality but quieter experience? What does the resonance feel like? How is the perception of the "breathing" amp and air movement in to the room? Feedback? Pinch harmonic differences? Which one would be great for a 50 person cafe/bar blues riff vs a rocker crowd or jazz crowd?
I learned by building amps . . . the lower the impedance, the sharper the attack with a little more emphasis on higher frequencies - Key word is "LITTLE". Think of the difference between single coils and humbuckers - that's how I think of the difference between 4 ohms & 16 ohms. I prefer 4 ohms with humbuckers & pedals. But if I was clean with a single coil strat, I may prefer 16 ohms to thicken the receipe. Also, if you play in stereo with a Double Tracking Pedal, you would want a thinner sound going to each amp, this way they'll mix better on each other giving a thick but more clear sound. Speaker EQ's & magnet materials play a role in this as well. 100W Twin + 4 ohms + Ceramic Speakers with Higher Sensitivity and your going to have ear piercing attack.
After a decade of experimentation, I believe that you pick the guitar first, then the pedals, then the amp, then the cab.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. Completely agree.
Or the guitar picks you, then comes the pedals, amp, and cab
When you go down in ohms it just opens the taps the amp with 4 ohms is a good balance I run 4 but it doesn't have to speed of 16 ohms 16 definitely more accurate
Back to the old style intro, AND they start off by mucking around and wetting themselves laughing. TPS is BACK ladies and gentlemen 😁👍
Maybe it's the new pickups on the PRS Goldtop.
@@RMosack Stella would have gotten her groove back much more quickly in that manner.
This being someone's first TPS episode would be magical
2nd, but still nice :)
It was mine! It was awesome 😎
Wow. JensenSpeakerVideos has a good point. The 16 ohm speakers sound brighter and more articulate. I think I'd go with brighter or darker depending on what amp I was using. Maybe 4 ohms on a Fender to take the cleans and 16 ohms on Marshalls to give them some help.
"... That's what the transformer does. Boom!"
"Hopefully not boom". Haha, brilliant!
Hi fellas. I just want to say thank you. Rewiring cabs back and forth, controlling all variables. That is a huge undertaking and a lot of work. I would call this the definitive impedance comparison. So thank you, it is very much appreciated.
Shame that the 30 minutes with Dan crying was cut out :D
I would love to see a clock on the back wall...the edits would look hilarious!
Please compile all the laughing outtakes into a long for video, put out the vet the holidays
@@SwirlyWhirlyXYZ Actually add them into a complete blooper/gag reel of all outtakes of 2019. ...should make an annual thingy of this...
Stuart Marsh (Music) genius
Stop me if this is addressed later in the video, but...one of the reasons they might set the cab up as 4 ohm instead of 16 is that it's safer for the amp. 16 ohm is both speakers in series, so if one driver blows (or one of the spade connectors works loose) it'll present an open circuit to the amp and will thus be a hazard to your output valves and/or transformer. In 4 ohms, the drivers are in parallel and if one fails it'll just double the impedance (ie just one of the 8 ohm speakers). Still not great for the amp, but a hell of a lot less damaging than an open circuit.
It's not a warranty issue, so why would they care? Maybe it is in combos.
An unscrupulous manufacturer might see it as an opportunity to shift more units.
@@pd4165 - no, it's not a warranty issue, it's simply common-sense electrical design as any engineer would tell you.
@@digiscream You 're right but if it happens when your amp is at full volume, you will blow the second driver if is not able to stand the power (RI²) as the amount of current will be doubled. I think that was a common issue on old amp when driver were not able to stand as much power as today.
And output transformer will suffer anyway
@@alannedelec2714 - yep, true...probably only a problem for folk using 2x12" cabs with G12H or Creambacks these days. Still, I'd rather go parallel than series myself, just for that added bit of safety. I personally don't like that speakers-on-the-raggedy-edge sound anyway, so my cabs are rated around double the max output of my amp anyway.
The transformer's an issue too, but as shown in this video a lot of output transformers can handle a mismatch. I guess the main point of this is that if a speaker blows, you should really stop what you're doing as soon as you hear it, and parallel speakers _might_ save you but series speakers _definitely_ won't :)
trying to boil this down to a TL;DR (or DW), correct me if I'm wrong:
-When matching impedances; 16 ohm output and speaker equals more low end due to using more windings
-When mismatching impedances, "better to go from 8 ohm to 16 ohm" (37:41) than 16 ohm to 8 ohm? Due to increased current and "asking the output transformer to do more work"
- mismatched: 4 ohm vs 8 ohm, 8 ohm seems louder due to correctly matching impedance
-(39:15) Rectiverb "seemed tighter" going 4 ohm out to 8 ohm speaker
THE BEST first 3 minutes of any video I think I've ever watched! The playing, the laughter, Dan's laugh is just so infectious ahaha! This is why I love this channel, one of if not the best channels on UA-cam. End of. Amazing
You know if Dan is sitting there looking like he’s in church listening to a sermon that the tone is good lol
When I saw Mick’s dance... I thought we were talking about gnohms....
Hahaha!!!
Good point at the end of the vid. Wiring speakers in parallel is said to cause less rolling off of high frequencies. Perhaps we need another video with 2 x 16-ohm speakers in parallel versus 2 x 4-ohm speakers in series.
Let's totally do that. FASCINATING!
My fav thing about this episode is that it proves playing valve amps LOUD really does inspire and take your playing to greater heights. Absolutely some of their best playing ever.
Big shout out to whoever provided the nitrous oxide fueling the giggle-fest that was the first 5min of this episode.
Possibly the best intro for the blend of humour AND guitar playing I've ever seen on UA-cam. HILARIOUS. Thank you
Thank you!
Maybe it's me or maybe lost to youtube compression, but it's hard to tell to be honest. With that being said I could see Dan's point of 4ohm having more low end. I guess that's why we see bass amps operating with 2, 4 and 8 ohm versus guitar amps typically using 8 and 16ohm. But then again bass amps also push alot more power 500+ watts versus the 100w guitar amps.
Brilliant assessment, I couldn’t hear the difference either but I have a bass and guitar amp and I’ve wondered why the bass amp runs at cut ohms.
I hear *absolutely* no difference at all! It's like it usually is for me. But, Mick has told me a few times that the difference was there in the room, and it would not surprise me if that was the case again. On the other hand, I'm beginning to think my ears are really not sensitive enough to notice. Saves me money I guess.
I could hear more bass on 4 ohms for sure.
the reason bass amps generally use lower impedance has nothing to do with sound quality and everything to do with voltages, since they are normally running higher wattages. Example - 200 watts into 4 ohms would be 28.2V and 7.07A, the same wattage (200) into 16 ohms is 56.6V and 3.54A, so the voltage doubles to generate the same power.
@@robblaize weird, I always thought that you'd generally prefer lower current situations. So, the step from 25 V to 50 V isn't a big deal for wire insulation, but you can use basically half the amount of copper for speaker cables and speakers.
Transformer secondary doubles, though (half the cross section area, but quadruple the wire lenght).
Well, i guess it is at it is :)
1 dance 2 men 3 lovely od pedals 4 ohms and 5-star playing!
Great show!
Yes!
I think Dan needs to write a book about electricity for guitarists.
Aye
Another informative show guys. I toured for two years with a Bandmaster reverb head (4ohms), a Marshall 4x10 cab and a custom-built EV cab, both 8ohms. The mis-matched impedance, when using only one cabinet, acted as an attenuator, letting me use the inefficient Celestions of the Marshall alone in smaller clubs, the more efficient EV alone in slightly larger ones, and on rare occasions, both together, matching the 4ohm impedance for a glorious sound.
No surprise:
You were using an 8 Ohms speaker with a 4 Ohms amp.
The other way around would have brought smoke signs from the amp.
Too much requested current would have melted the amp output transformer secondary winding.
Dan: write a small book or sellable pdf on instruments, amplification, and electricity. No joke the way you explain things it would be a killer crash course for the electrical engineering concepts in amplification. Love you dudes
Dan said something interesting that I think is worth repeating: there’s a difference between manufacturing process to cut costs and sonic changes. They may affect each other but they also may improve a certain character. Manufacturers saving money does not equal bad tone.
Just look at Fender! A majority of what they have done has been to cut costs, like how they’re guitars are constructed. And yet, classics we all know and love!
I was going to mention Fender being cheap. But what's wrong with cheap and good?
Early British amps were all multipurpose - my Hiwatt (1971) has 4-8-16ohms AND 100v taps on the output transformer - the 100v output being for extremely long runs in PA systems (big factories and outdoor events).
It makes for a more expensive amp...but the potential market is bigger. It also explains why they frequently had four inputs, which we misuse to our advantage now.
Since Fender amps were almost impossible to get until the 70's it meant all the British amps needed to have the same features, until P.A. amps came onto the market.
My very first amp was ripped out of a fashion shop - A 40W TVM with three channels, two inputs each. It went wrong and I couldn't afford to take it to a repair shop - so my mother made it disappear when I was away one weekend. Like the tin drum I got as a birthday present. And the plastic bugle. And the cork gun which I discovered could fire gravel.
But she did leave me a house, which nearly makes up for it. But not quite :-P
My Vox AC10c1 looks like a dog’s breakfast inside due to cost savings, but sounds amazing. Agreed.
@@gabrielledebourg2487 I agree with guitars but the Hot Rod series imo is an example where lower price equals eh tone. If they managed to make Princeton Reverbs/Deluxe Reverbs at a similar pricepoint (as they sort of have recently)
I know Dan Boul recommends running his 65 Amps, if possible, at 16 ohms, to use the full amount of winds of the output transformer, while another friend says that is great of vintage Voxes, but likes vintage Marshalls to run at 8 ohms, with two 16 ohm cabinets. Here we go down another rabbit hole.
I've heard that in many places, but it doesn't make sense to me in technical terms. Even though you're tapping the signal at some point in the transformer's winding, the _entire_ winding is energized _all the time_.
For example, TPS tried the 4Ω and 16Ω taps on the Marshall. Yet the amp has a feedback loop that is always attached to the 8Ω tap in this amp. That loop always gets signal from the transformer for feedback, no matter which of the taps actually has a speaker-load connected.
My guess is that Dan Boul (and others repeating this claim) tried to explain why a sonic difference is heard on different taps, and maybe didn't have any other plausible explanation.
Mick, I'd like to mention that I find that this newly modded PRS really brings out something very nice in your playing. When you play a Strat, it sounds like you on a Strat. When you play the 335, it sounds like you on a 335. For some reason, when you play the goldtop PRS, it sounds like you. Delightful to listen to.
and thanks for cracking me up this episode, really needed that
Thank you! This is all good news!
I have a hard time hearing any difference with my headphones. Imagine the heat on the wires would impact the gear more than the audio? Fascinating show today
All i can tell from my iphone speaker is that the tone of both of those Fender guitars is chewy and delicious! Will watch on my studio monitors for impedance later. Thanks guys!
Hey guys, love the show. This has been an extremely useful episode for me, since I have a Marshall DSL-40 with a 16 ohm internal speaker & an 8 ohm external output, and an Egnater Tweaker 15 with an impedance selector switch between 4, 8, & 16 ohm (currently run through a Fender 1 x 12" closed back cab @ 8 ohms). Have you ever heard of or seen the Ted Weber Z-Matcher? The Z-Matcher allows you to match the output impedance of your amp to impedances of speakers and cabinets that are not the same as your amp output impedance. Matches 2, 2.6, 4, 5.3, 8, and 16 ohms amplifiers to 2, 2.6, 4, 5.3, 8, and 16 ohms speaker systems, so the amp sees the impedance it wants, and the speaker sees the impedance it wants & includes an extra output jack (parallel) and a balanced and unbalanced line out with a level adjustment. I have used this in the past with a Princeton Reverb to run both the internal speaker and an external cab, and it works great. What are your thoughts on something like this?
Ooooh, that's interesting. Never tried it. Hmmmmmmm......
My '81 Pro Reverb prefers 5.3
It's the perfect middle ground for dynamics, volume, and getting the speakers to move and show their character. Instead of the dual 4 ohm output Fender provides, I preferred running it to a single 5.3 ohm 4x12 cabinet.
@@ThatPedalShow late to this but just experimenting with my Handwired JTM45 and 16 vs 8 ohm. Reason that I’m chipping in here is just to mention that the Fryette Power Station lets you mismatch amp amp speaker same as the Z matcher.
Today you used the plexi. With plexi.
Your last point at the end about 2 x 12’s: that would’ve made the most difference. Wiring in series humps. Wiring in parallel scoops. When you use a 4 x 12 at 4 instead of 16, you are simply removing the series nature which is only half of the total. 2 x 12’s are either series or parallel in total. That does make a profound difference. That would make a nice quick easy follow up to this. :)
I've not watched the video yet (will revisit this post afterwards) but....
many, many years ago I picked up the following nugget from somewhere that I can't remember.
It was 'go for the highest impedance you can - the amp will have to fight harder and will be more dynamic'.
Without ever conducting an A/B test I've always followed this advice.
To the batca errrrrrr video!
EDIT after watching.
Dan n' Mick are saying more 'open/airy' at 4ohms on both amps.
I have a slightly different take - I thought the 16ohm presentation was more 'saturated'. I'm not looking for a pedal platform so 'saturated' is fine for my DR103, a notoriously clean and dynamic amp.
16ohms might not be as dynamic, according to the Dan n' Mick test, so my received wisdom (possibly faulty memory) was wrong. Or not, since it wasn't my amp played at gig volume. But it's a taste thing and I'm happy.
Hilarious intro, outstanding outro, and a nerd out fest with great guitar playing and tones in the middle. Classic TPS format!
I remember when I learned how a transformer works and it blew my mind that there was no direct conductive contact between the primary and secondary windings. All that electricity from the power plant that is stepped up and down on its way to our house, is wireless at those points. The magic of magnetic flux! Don’t even get me started on capacitors and tubes. Another wireless method of electron transfer! Any other electronics nerds out there? 🤘🤓
4 ohm sounded best for me, tight and physical. Man the joy of playing on full display today!
Great topic that needs exploration for sure! The one ‘elephant in the room that you didn’t discuss(unless I somehow missed it) is the Parallel vs Series different...the reason people always say “Marshalls always sound better at 16 ohms” is because of the wiring of a 4 X 12 cab....2 X 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel = 8 ohms....the other 2 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel = 8 ohms ......the each 8 ohm load wired together in series = 16 ohms total. Marshall amps sound better in 16 ohms(series). In my 2 X 12 with Marshall Super Lead(100W)....2 X 8 ohm speakers wired in Series = 16 ohms(series)!
Sounds perfect. I tried 2 X 8 ohms in parallel @ 4 ohms.....Marshall sounded horrible. So it’s definitely not just impedance...many other factors...series vs parallel and 2 X 12 vs 4 X12. Matchless is 2 X 8 ohm speakers in parallel = 4 ohms....that’s the best set up for matchless 2 X 12. Marshall 4 X 12 @ 16 ohms is the gold standard and it’s using the full transformer windings. Even in a 1 X 12 ....a single 8 ohm speaker is fuller sounding because there are less windings of heavier wire on the speaker coil. 1 X 12 cabs are never 16 ohms....thinner wire and more windings on the speaker coil..thinner sound.
In my opinion, the biggest difference is that you had it wired in series for the 16 ohm vs in parallel for the 4 ohm. Parallel usually sounds better to me. So if you used two 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel for a total of 8 ohms, you may get a different result than using two 8 ohm speakers. Just my two cents.
The narration at the ending is my new favorite thing i've heard from this show
That PRS sounds amazing!
What i took from this video is that Mick is bursting at the seams ready to crank up the amps and play some shows! The start of the video had me in stitches well played lads.
I so am Leigh, I soooooo aaaaaaam! Thanks for watching!
"I didn't want to mime that" , I actually properly lol'd
Pushed ‘pause’ at 3:30 and had tears in the eyes🤣. Thank you!
I've had a Fender Dual Showman (red knob, evil twin version) since new in 1990. I've played is through many different cabs. The one I miss the most is a old Peavey 4x12 running at 4ohms. It was huge and had silicone on the cones where they split, the deeper, warmer tone is what I liked. No Fender cab has matched that tone. Marshall come close. Looking into a Boogie.
Laughs and silliness much needed and appreciated these days. Thanks, guys. Cheers.🍺
Listening with headphones when it switches from 8ohms to 16ohms there is a small change in the “fullness” of the sound. Mostly in the low end. It’s like a loss of low end ambience. Hard to explain but I hear it. To be clear the 8ohms was the fuller sound.
What I found with my TSL 100 16ohm (cab and head) for a while now it seemed to have TOO much gain and compression, running any od or comp easily feedbacks and I could not tame it even in the crunch at low gain settings, but today I went 4 ohm (cab and head) and I got loads of headroom and it cleaned up dramatically! I now can run od pedals and Dyna comp in both channels! Sounds more early super lead. So many forums are fighting over this but maybe more distortion and higher watts make more of a difference. Thanx guys.
You both were goddamly inspired on this. Amazing playing!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
The ability to get that joke quickly must be linked to hair because I also took a second to grasp that one😂
Impy Dance? ... That's cabin fever right there...
Impy Dance is just the silliness I needed today. Clap-o-meter maxed out from the comments below. Well played sir.
Personally I prefer the more open top end of the 16 ohm. But I do think the difference is subtle.
You guys were on fire today. The driest of topics and I had a smile on m'face the whole time. Welcome back!
Quarantine has taken its toll, I see lol
The tone sounds fuller with the 4 ohms!! 🤘🏻🎸🖖🏻🔥
the only thing funnier than mick's joke was waiting to see how long it would take dan to get it
Agree with other commenters, felt like you guys were back to normal for this one. Great show, really interesting.
3 minutes in and we’ll never top that dance.
I bought the Walrus Audio Ages, and it is INCREDIBLE. It replaces at least two other overdrives on my board. In 3rd position, it makes my humbuckers and Fender Princeton sound like fire breathing Marshall stack
I have personally found that 16ohm always sounds better. Have done 100's of gigs with my MI Iron Duke at both 8 and 16, it always seems to have more girth and sustain at 16ohms.
Bingo you are correct sir unless youre a bassist then 4 ohmns is better
I've been playing a lot of "Doom" recently, so I knew exactly what you were doing when you started the Impy Dance. And hearty chortles erupted from my bosom. Thank you so much for doing a show on this topic, it's been one of fascination for me recently and you helped answer a lot of questions.
Whoosh.
Barely, if at all, detected any difference myself. Maybe I’ve got cloth ears, maybe it’s more noticeable in the room, but I honestly went back and forth on whether I had a preference each time, or what differences I could detect.
Keep taking care, guys.
Yeah I have some high quality headphones on and I hear no difference.
There really shouldn't be much of a difference. Even in the room right next to the amp you'd really have to "look" for it. Your not crazy infact you should be proud of yourself for not convincing yourself there was a difference when there wasnt.
Listening on studio monitors here. With the lower impedance I heard a cleaner attack, less transformer saturation (if you are into recording you recognize that sound after a while), slightly less "graininess"... But since this wasn't a double blind test I might be deceiving myself. Although I'm generally pretty confident in my ears. Quite subtle anyways.
@@noisesoundtonevibe I was listening through my monitoring headphones but im certain had i turned on my monitors and listened through them i would have heard the same thing. Ive tried this "experiment" in person and there tons and tons of reports on the various forums on this topic and while some say theres a difference the science says otherwise. Theres so much that goes into what you hear. Even if theres a difference im certain its not a reproducible difference across the spectrum of different speakers amps etc. Im HIGHLY sensitive to any high end loss in my mixes and with my amp due to cable capacitance so im not one of those guys who just doesnt pay attention and says theres no difference. Most of the time id be the first to say there is a difference. But when it comes to selecting speakers/cabs get or use whatever you can thats convenient. The most important thing is the speaker itself not its impedance.
@@michaelinglis8516 I agree, the speaker makes a MUCH bigger difference. I still heard what I heard, and I wasn't really expecting to hear anything. I might try to set up a double blind test by downloading this video's audio and check that way. But again, I'm quite confident in my ears. In fact I watched some portions of the video while hiding my screen and could pick up the differences... Not a perfect test for sure, but still.
Anyways, even if I hear it and I'm not fooling myself, I'm sure 98% of listeners would not hear it or care. Let's put it that way: it's not gonna make or break your tone, you might never explore it and not miss it at all, but if you're a tone tinkerer, you might find slight benefits to exploring the question.
Dan howls with laughter - thank you plexiglass!!! Long live the Impy-dance!
I'm a fan of safety mismatching amp and cab impedance with non-master volume amps. I like to get them to a nice crunch and get all my dynamics from my guitars and sometimes cranking even a 25 watt amp can bury a band mix. I find the decrease in volume, while not massive, can sometimes be enough to be able to get them crunchy without introducing an attenuator into the signal path.
what kind of mis matches do you do?
@@CarlyonProduction for instance running a head at 8 ohms into a 16 ohm cab. You'll notice a drop in headroom/output volume but its safe. I do this occasionally if I'm using a non-master volume amp and have to make it more manageable on a stage.
Dan and Mick have left the building .... good form. Great episode
We're all so online in quarantine times that we monitor our favorite people's mental breakdowns in real time
Welcome!
Man - the frets on Dan’s tele are huge! Never noticed that before
"We can dance if we want to.
We can leave your friends behind.
Cause' your friends don't dance,
and if they don't dance, well they're
no friends of mine."
That intro tone is one of the best prs tones I’ve ever heard! Love those pickups!
16 ohm sounds less compressed, more airy, more dynamic. When given the choice I'd go for using the full coil. I run a vox at 16 and a fender at 16.
i think the opposite. 4 ohm sounds tighter / more focused .
@@soundsokok aren’t you saying the same thing?
@@arn999 that airy dynamic you can get from pedal or room instead of speaker that way this signal getting passed is clean and it helps when adding distortion and things like that cause in the 16 it might pick up to much freq
Oh yeah, thasa shoW! I like 16 ohm speakers because I perceive them to give a softer sound to the amp, and to be really pedal friendly, as pedals also can harden up the sound when you use a board full. But I can also hear what you are hearing here, with a fuller tighter sound at lower ohms. So many variables..
My impression from watching the video is that this is probably more of a “feel” thing than it was a difference in audio. I honestly couldn’t tell a difference.
I wasn't really watching when they did the sound test with the Matchless so it was definitely my ears that picked up the difference in tone. I was watching when Mick tested the Marshall and don't know if it was my ears or my eyes that detected a slight difference. The Mesa just sounded the same, mismatched impedance or not. I think Mick's (?) comment about the manufacturer's recommendations resonated most with me - the amps all sounded right with the cabinets and impedance settings they were designed for. I'd be interested to see them doing a similar show putting the heads through different cabs and seeing whether the 'signature sound' is easily accessible.
Kevin Betts I’ve got UA-cam Premium and was only listening to the video while I was at work. So I never could tell really when the they would reword the cabinets. I think like they said volume probably plays a huge factor, especially when the amp is cranked. I’m just saying with my Apple air buds and all the visuals cut off I couldn’t hear anything different to my ears. I believe the lower the ohms the harder it is on the gear long term. 16 ohms at least in car audio (I know it’s a different thing) is much easier of the speakers.
@@arnolddealiii4259
Hi!
Why would a low impedance set up be harder on the gear since it was designed that way?
Low impedance sure does implies operatong under higher current but also implies higher output transformer secondary winding section to let the higher current flow easily without overheating the winding which eliminates the risk of melting the winding insulation enamel that would lead to a short circuit in the output transformer.
Since all is properly matched (speaker impedance to amp output impedance), I really don’t see why anything wrong would happen.
Provided, of course, that the amp was properly designed.
@@arnolddealiii4259 Ah, that would explain why you wouldn't hear any difference. I was listening on my Creative Katana PC/Home Theatre audio system which gives a lot more scale to the audio.
Regarding ohmage and gear, when it comes to solid state stuff you're more or less correct due to the way it works (the lower the impedance the higher the wattage output). Because valve amps work differently using the transformer (something Dan explains to a degree at the start) changing the impedance does not change the out power but mismatching the impedance strains the transformer and putting no load on the amp at all threatens to blow the transformer completely! Don't ask me why, I just use the gear I don't know how it works ...... although I know how to break it! 😎😎
I would think the parallel vs serial wiring would have a larger effect than the impy dance.
I don’t understand how everyone that plays guitar isn’t subscribed to this channel
Really appreciate that 🤓🙏
Please tell me there's a "Schwang-ri-la" t-shirt coming out soon...
This PRS with P90 sounds insane!!
❤❤
Here's an interesting observation, Mojave Amps (out of business) were all wired with two parallel outputs and no impedence selector switch, the claim being, these Marshall-type switches are ultimately unreliable. Thus, the typical cab combinations were (1x12, =>16), (2x12,=>8+8=16), and (4x12, 16+16, 16+16 ohm like Marshall). They manufactured cabs and speaker selection/wiring to meet these designs. Unfortunately, they poorly described what they were doing and failed to make yardage out of it. It is a fantastic design once you understand it. Why? well now, for the three types of cabinets, any two cabinets can be plugged direcly in, and you have a viable combination of 16 Ohms o each side. Obviously Two 16s in parallell mean he amp itself is designed for 8. I run mine two 1x12s (16 each) stacked.
Love Mojave amps! Victor told me on the phone that he only wires 2x12s in series.
Great episode! In the end I think: it’s good to know all the options and what each option does (rolls off highs, increase volume, more clarity, etc) and then use that DEPENDING on what your setup needs. Some amps, with your setup (guitar, pus, cables, style of playing, etc) may be to bright for you, so you may then want to try the different things that rolls off highs and that could include impedance differences.
I recently changed from using a 4ohm cabs (Marshall 1960a) to 2x8 ohms with Celestion Greenbacks and the difference is immense, there's SO much more bottom end info in the signal, tons more clarity and I've had to turn the amp right down (power up for headroom though!)
2x8 ohms still comes down to 4 ohms, so it’s not a difference in impedance. It’s the G12Hs in your 1960A vs Greenback speakers you’re hearing. Use your highschool physics, there’s a reason they teach you them.
Did I hear “What Passes For Love” in Mick’s playing on the PRS? David Grissom deserves more love. Well done.
Not intentionally, but I’m a massive fan of Grissom’s playing so there’s Storyville deep in my soul. What a flipping fantastic band. Cheers!
22:42 : beast mode activated
He went OFF. Nasty.
Thank you for confirming why I always run my VHT 2150 4 ohms with my Marshall 4x12. Love it.
That gold prs with p90s is incredible! Finally something different instead of always strats
Oh come on, that's not entirely fair. I play my 335 tons!
My baby-daughter started to laugh with Dan in the beginning :D Btw, was looking for that a few months back when choosing a Captor, didn’t find anything! So thx :)
I thought you were impersonating an “ohm-pah loompah’ 😂
So did I!! We think alike.
FWIW here's what I heard across the board on all three test cases: Signals going through less windings on the transformers sounded flatter, less 3D, more coherent. Signals going through more windings sounded thicker, more 3D but also less coherent. On the Matchless, the lower impedance setting gave the sound a notable focus to it, but you could also feel the stereo field seem flatter (not in a bad way). The Marshall on the lower impedance setting lost some thickness and gained a smidge of clarity (that didn't need) so I liked it better at higher impedance. The tone on the Mesa didn't seem to change at all, but did become a bit flatter. This was my perception. Great show, thank you.
Thank you. I think we concur broadly. Flatter is a good way to describe what I was trying to get across about more/less harmonic ‘confusion’. Interestingly, in the room, the ‘flatter’ more ‘together’ sounds were generally preferred. But in the recording the extra harmonics maybe In the tone gives it more colour perhaps. So interesting!
There's a key problem with seeing the different taps as "signal going through more/less windings." That is, *all* of the transformer secondary is energized *all of the time* even if you only tap the speaker's signal from part of it. This is provable if you connect a meter to check voltage on any of the unused taps. Or if you touch an unused tap on a power transformer (well, no... don't do that!).
Yes the whole thing is energized but that’s irrelevant.
I learned this trick from Ken Fischer;
On your Marshall 2203/2204/1959/1987, etc.
Run your selector on 8ohm, then use a 25' speaker cable to your 16ohm cabinet. The longer cable acts as an inductor and will tighten up your low end, while smoothing out your highs.
That’s bs, cables do have parasitic inductance, but that value is *extremely* low, this does nothing audible to your signal. You’re making your amp work harder against the speakers, which not only makes them fight each other, but also makes the amp run less efficiently. Just match your cable.
@@justinvzu01 Let's see... the legendary amp guru Ken Fischer vs. some know-it-all rando in the comments section 🤔
Not for nothing, I’ve always heard it said that plexi Marshall’s are designed to be run at 8 ohms rather than 16 or 4 as they where intended to be run with 2 4x12 16 ohm cabs, just look at the blues breaker combo, it’s set up with 2 speakers running at 8ohm......
16 ohms, best. It's more balanced, sitting better in the mix with vocals and other instruments. As result, the mix is more cohesive.
I have my 3 2x12 cabs wired for both 4/16 ohms on a switch. I highly recommend this mod. 4 ohms (parallel) is cleaner and punchier. 16 ohms (series) is smoother and dirtier. At 16 ohms there is more harmonics and it's better for playing with distortion. Generally speaking. The damping effect on the speaker changes wether your running series vs parrallel. Interestingly Fender always wired for paralell. And I believe Marshall would use series. Not sure how much the transformer windings are adding to that. Excellent show as always!
I have 3 Avatar cabs with different alnico/ceramic speaker mixes. Another interesting addition tonally is that they have 2 speaker inputs. Each speaker is wired to a jack. Depending on which speaker jack you use? You get a different tone as well because the signal is hitting one speaker before the other.
"Schwangri la" needs to be a TPS T-shirt
Absolute humour and absolute knowledge, TPS best guitar channel ever!
So I have a question about whether your 8 ohm speakers might operate slightly differently when wired either in series or parallel. Is it possible that the series or parallel wiring of two speakers might have an impact on the tone coming from both? Maybe the difference your are hearing is from the speakers being wired in series @ 16 ohms and in parallel @ 4?
I dunno. Just spitballing. The difference in the wiring is the one variable you didn't really isolate.
Apparently so. We’re having a chat with Dave Friedman soon for his podcast and/or YT vids. We will ask him. If anyone knows, he knows!
Awesome video for the impedance joke alone!
I literally didn't get it until Mick said "impedance"
Sad to say, I got it about the same time as Dan...
You know it's a good one when they have to cut for one of the guys to get it together because he can't stop laughing lol
Confused. At what ohm setting was there more “thump” and “togetherness?”
4
Same confusion for me. Thanks for clarifying.
Makes sense... at 16 ohms the speakers are in series; given that speakers are a reactive load the first speaker is going to impact the second, so you will certainly get volume differences, and probably phase differences between the two speakers.
Dan's reaction to Impy dance and the voice over at the end were the best parts of this show :D
The output transformer of a valve amp is just about the opposite of a high precision toroidal transformer in a high-end direct box designed for purity and transparency.
Suspect the biggest factor in-play is the behavior of the transformer. It’d be interesting to hear what Wampler or Keeley might say about it.
I know most will have a lot of fun with the dance (it was brilliant), but thank you so much for doing this episode. The amount of work that you had to put in with rewiring speaker cabs must have been very time consuming. Great job as usual!
The "more together" comment on the parallel (4 ohm) wiring of the 2x12s versus the series (16 ohm) does make sense with the speakers both being hit with the signal simultaneously (parallel) versus one then the other (series). I wonder if that is due to a tiny time difference in the speaker movement in series wiring, as Dan touches on at the end of the video.
The “time difference” is going to be a few microseconds, if that long. Electricity travels through wires at speeds approaching the speed of light in a vacuum. You could run a speaker lead miles long and you wouldn’t notice any latency in speaker response.
I was going to comment just this as well. How come they didn't mention that the difference in sound and feel might have to do with the fact that wiring speakers in serial will sound different than wiring them in parallel?! The current just flows differently when they are in serial, and one amp "interfere" with the other, like the second one in the series might get an "altered" current/wave/sound caused by it running to a speaker before it. This should have been mentioned.
I couldn't hear a difference at all in the Matchless or Marshall between 4 and 16 ohms. It'd have been nice to have some footage of your thoughts on hearing the audio back as well though I guess that's what the Q&A is for, I'm very much looking forward to hearing your thoughts after having listened back to the audio.