That jitter at really low rpm is normal for a sensorless motor and ESC. If that jitter is unacceptable, you'll need to get a sensored motor and ESC. The sensored setup has an additional wire loom, a data connection, between the motor and ESC for relaying rotor position and other data. As far as I know, there's no way of adding this to your current setup. Now, to be completely honest, all of my experience is with brushless inrunner motors. I run both sensored and sensorless in my rc cars. I have no experience with outrunner motors, but I believe the info is still valid. Hope this was helpful. For whatever it's worth, I am thoroughly impressed with your talent and dedication to such a complicated project. I really enjoy getting to see your progress, thank you for sharing.
The stuttering comes from the ESC. You will need a sensored Motor. The non sensored one calculates the position of the motor by the back EMF which is at low speeds very little. As a result the ESC drives the Motor wrong. Because these Motors are usually made for airplanes etc. the tourqe required to turn the motor initialy is very little and the ESC gets his back EMF Signal pretty fast so almost no stuttering. Love your work!
True. I was going to suggest 'inrunner' motors as those look like they are used for very heavy lift multi rotor drones. I have the same type of motors on my old hexcopter - although mine are much smaller!
@@zacharias_b these are often sensored as well. You will never get a perfect result without, because the first split seconds are for the ESC just guessing what is going on. But Crawler stuff is a good recommendation to look for parts
Or you just just a VESC. These can move a longboard+rider perfectly smooth from a stand still, while running sensorless. Plus they go up to 12s, feature current control, different control types (like PID speed control) and they can cope with just about any brush/bldc motor.
Yes, looks like the sensorless aspect is the reason. I've used these motors in helicopters so just bought them again without thinking any more of it. If I'd researched more beforehand I'd probably still buy these in the end because of the price. I'll just have to accept the cogging but to be fair it doesn't do it much unless provoked with really low power. Cheers everyone for the replies.
Hi Keith, these motors aren't sensored so on low speed they do this cogging, also the ESC isn't going to work for long without a proper colling system, it's meant for airplanes or heli's. If the motors would have a sensor then it would act like a stepper motor and can do those low rpm's without cogging. A proper car ESC can do low rpm's better and also without a sensor way better then this ESC does. I like the outrunner choice, but i can't wait to see and hear the actuall v10! What a nice build this is already :D
They're unsensored, that's why you have clogging at low speeds. A sensored motor/ speed control will give you alot more control at low speeds but for the size you'll need to move the thing will be expensive. Honestly I wouldn't bother if they're gonna be temporary. Also they're outrunner so more designed for planes, helps or quads so they'll be designed to have more control in the higher end of the throttle. Also only using lead acid won't give them the voltage requirements they require, stick some lipo batteries in there, that the motors can handle and you'll get more power out of it.
If you want to go smooth on brushless on really low rpm, you need sensored esc’s and sensored motors. They have another small cable besides the three phasing cables.
You are experiencing cogging, where the frequency of the ESC is trying to drive the motor at is not what the motor likes to see. With your rig up on stands, there is very little load for the motor to deal with. If you set it down and the motor has to move the whole weight of the vehicle, you will probably find that you need a higher frequency to get the motor spinning and push past the point of cogging. Your build is going great! Anxious to see it out driving and a body get put on it.
Not entirely true. Sensored means you have a rotary encoder built in to the motor so that the controller can know what position the stator is in. That can certainly help combat cogging by not just blindly sending pulses to the motor, but just because a motor controller knows the position the stator is in doesn't mean you can't cog the motor driving it with too low of a frequency relative to its load. if you don't want cogging at all, go with a brushed motor.
You need a sensored motor the same that are used in crawlers. The motors you have are sensorless. The ESC determines the position of the rotor with back EMF. When the motor is running one of the three coils is un used at a certian time. That coil produces voltage and the ESC measures it to determine positin. If the motor is running with a too low speed there is no voltage generated and the ESC can't sync with the rotor so it just simulates a slow rotating field to try to get a lock on the rotor. Sensored motors (and ESC needs to support sensors) has integrated hall effect sensors. This way the ESC always knows where the rotor is. This way you can run the motor with very low speeds.
_OUTSTANDING_ workmanship. Wow. The reason why those brushless motors twitch like that is because they and your ESC are sensorless. So without hall sensors, the only way for the speed controller to get a timing signal is from the back EMF coming from the undriven coils, which-in-turn requires that the rotor be moving - hence that twitching at startup.
What you are experiencing with the motor jolting is called cogging, and it happens with brushless sensorless motors because the ESC can’t tell where the rotor is at low rpm 👍🏼
That looks like an aircraft ESC. Getting a controller for cars will help. A prop has almost no load at start-up, and a car BL starts under high load, and requires different software. The ESC also seems a bit small for that motor. I suspect you will let the smoke out of it if you get that motor up to full power.
Thats pretty normal for a sensorless brushless motor. They depend on a signal which is generated by the spinning of the motor to time the phases. The only solutions are to eithr not spin them that slowly or use sensored motors.
Hey, the stuttering problem is caused by the motor and esc being out of sync. For it to work you would need a sensored motor as well as a sensored Esc. They use hall effect sensors to tell the esc which coil to activate so it can run smoothly at every possible rpm range. They are wildly used on RC cars for that exact same problem.
Its not a problem unless youre in to slow shit like rock crawling, in wich you can just run a brushed motor instead. On a vehicle youre trying to go fast with there is no reason to have a sensored motor.
beautiful work as usual Keith! Nice to see you making a vehicle instead of just a test stand. I think when they are brushless motors some have sensors that detect rotor position, and some don't if they don't you get this jittering problem at low speeds
Love the build. Everything looks awesome. The motor stutter could be caused by a timing issue in the ESC. When it's first starting the ESC is flying blind so to speak and doesn't yet have any feedback from the motor. If it's programmable, you could try changing the timing/start-up optins. Or just get a sensored motor and ESC, though I assume you'd rather not for a temporary solution. It only really makes a difference at low speed/throttle. Couldn't hurt to check all the solder joints between the ESC and the motor. If anyone thinks I'm wrong, please correct me.
Amazing project! As some have mentioned, the stutter at low speed is due to the sensorless brushless motor setup. On a brushless motor, the ESC needs to know the exact position of the rotor to time the motor windings properly. In sensorless design, this is done through back EMF which uses the drive coils within the motor to get an idea of rotor position. Unfortunately at stall speeds (ie zero or near zero RPM), the back EMF signal is almost useless since the rotor hasn't really begun to "spin" yet to generate a useable back EMF signal. Switching to a sensored brushless system will fix this issue and give you more starting torque. Happy building!
Yeah the motor tremble is pretty normal for uncensored brushless motors. Especially when they are under powered they will tremble at low rpm. This could also be caused by the ESC/power source limiting current to the motor. With the size of the ESC compared to the the motor I think that is what's happening. BUT MAD RESPECT! That thing is awesome!
That problem with the outrunner motors probably has to do with esc timing. Check the internet for a manual for your escs, if you have no programming card. Often they can be programmed simply by powering them up on full throttle and then following certain commands via throttle position. Greetings
What I would suggest for a replacement to those motors would be to get some sensored brushless outruners (and ESC's) instead of the sensorless ones that you have, the main difference between the two kinds of brushless motors are that the sensored ones have a Hall effect sensor that makes it so that the ESC can tell what position the the permanent magnets are relative to the electro magnets which eliminates that cogging action the sensorless motors have at low rpm under such load, it also makes the motors have more torque
The sensor-less type speed controller gets feed back directly from the windings. The hunting effect at start up is the speed controller trying to work out which direction the motor is turning.
This is truly a piece of art,probably the best fabrication RC work I’ve ever seen.I would hate to see how many thousands of dollars its costed to get where your at now,but cant wait to see it completely done and a video of u driving it will be amazing
this 1/3th rc is a piece of art !! i build 1/10 , 1/8th steel monster trucks, you may have a look and judge for yourself how they perform on my channel !
Your speed controller causes the motors to squeek like that. These seem like airplane esc's, they are not at all designed for start up torque. If you now try to move a heavy object from standstill, they can't sync the motor, which causes the horrible noise. Also, don't do it too long at a time, in this state, current can be enormous. 2 ways to solve this: -Large RC car esc, they do better -A VESC, they are the optimum and have all the adjust ability one could want. Hope that helps
What you experienced is “cogging”, and it happens with unsensored brushless systems. at low RPMs. A sensored ESC and motor allows for smooth operation from top to bottom.
Fantastic job and I have been sharing your subscription location and information with as many people as possible. I don’t have but a few shares are public on my account profile but yours definitely is one that I hoped more people would subscribe to help you with your account and project. Please keep it going and good luck.
The motor chattering is coming from the ESC, it just can't drive them at slow speeds. You'd need Field Oriented Control or a Sensored ESC. The regular RC hobby ESCs can't do either. Might want to check out Vedders Open Source ESC, it can do pretty much everything: vedder.se/2015/01/vesc-open-source-esc/
The reason your BLDC is behaving like that is because (it looks like) it's sensorless, which don't run great at low speed. The controller uses induction to know when to switch, of which there isn't a lot at low speed. You can either go with more aggressive gearing or a motor with a lower KV rating to reduce the problem, or go sensored.
The motor is "Cogging" this is because the ESC is SENSORLESS and does not know where is the rotor positioned in the magnetic field so it "guesses" at first, When it starts to run then the ESC can detect with resistance what pole is next in line so it smooths out the turning of the motor. You need a SENSORED MOTOR and ESC.. There are a few outrunner motors that do run in Sensored mode, This will smooth out the low speed initial speed.
Mate for someone who says he doesn't know so often you're pretty f****** clever I think you should take this for a tour around world because I'm sure a lot of people would like to see it for real and shake your hand ,keep going, you're about half way now🤙
With your amazing ability to make and machine things have you thought about building turbo chargers for you every little 10 Cylinder?I am utterly amazed at the motor, I used to build motors for sprint cars as a side line while spending my days job as a fire truck technician, I could knock out a 3 angle valve job and things like this but your work takes things to a whole new level. I am really impressed with you motor!
Thanks. Yes, a turbo sounds like a nice little project. I don’t think it could be made to produce much boost at this scale though, but if I could get, say 3 or 4 psi out of one then I’d be happy to bolt it on.
Best controller for those motors is called 'VESC' they are cheapest from flipsky. Even with your sensorless motors vesc controllers should be smoother and are fully tuneable to deliver maximum power to the motors
@@chad9160 VESC is the name of an open source ESC. It is sensored yes but can also run sensorless. You can buy them from many places but flipsky is the cheapest. Google 'Flipsky vesc'
@@chad9160 Definitely. The focbox unity is a version that can power two motors up to 12S / 60A each and its very compact for what it does with bluetooth communication etc
I just wanted to say that I've had similar issues with RC brushless outrunner motors before. I discovered was that it was because I was using an ESC of too higher power... I was trying to use (from memory) a 70A ESC on a motor that only required a 20A ESC on a small model aeroplane park flyer. It was fine and flew with no issues other that at very low throttle, the motor reacted exactly as yours did here.
Stuttering is usually either intermittent connection or timing issue on ESC firmware. Other causes can be ground loops (not very likely in this scenario) and badly wound motors.
That cogging due to the type of ESC you are using (there are onroad esc's that are sensorless and work well). The ones you are using are made for aircraft where there isn't a load at very low rpm. Another issue is, is that they are also not made for high loads and will burn out quite quick in something like this. look at hobbywing onroad escs for a cheap setup. But anyway amazing work my friend the attention to detail blew me away.
That’s what you call low speed clogging, it a bit common with sensorless brushless motors. You also will need a much bigger ESC because those are way too small to handle any amperage.
Get motors with encoders. The esc is using feed back from the motor to get its timing and at low rpm they tend to be Inaccurate for whatever reason. By using a separate encoder u can maintain to accuracy. Instead of twitching until the esc notices the right feedback you will get a constant torque until the encoder reads it's time to switch coils in your motor.
The firmware on the esc needs changing. There will be a recommended firmware from The manufacturers to fix that. You can also do a firmware esc calibration and tell it what revs / current is on the bottom end of going active. Remember when the wheels are on the ground that initial jump will hardly be noticed due to the weight to torque correlation.
With un'sensored brushless motors, there is a slight glitch/phase that happens around 0-1% throttle. I have 10 years R/C experiance and sponsorships, very common thing with un'sensored motors. Nothings wrong with it, i raced a 540 Can 3300kv un'sensored motor got a whole year on my smaller scale. Just dont hover around the 0-1% range, and you"ll be good 👍
Brushless motors cogging as others have said. Might be able to change ESC timing but ultimately as others have said, you probably want a sensored motor to get rid of that or you could try gearing down. This however is the most bad ass RC I have ever seen. The machine and design work is incredible. Top stuff mate
That is a really awesome project!!! Nice craftsmanship, using nice thick quality materials to make parts. You should definitely upload more often ,even if it's small progress. This is a unique project!
when you do get a chance to run it,be very careful with the new komet tyres,on a kart they offer very little grip until they have been scrubbed in,you can speed up the process by using a belt sander to get remove the shiny finish,once you have sanded them clean them with carb cleaner,it has acetone wheich softens the rubber ,it should make them slightly tacky which is more preferable, great build btw
Calibrate the ESC Put at full throttle before plug-in the battery and plug the battery with it still full throttle wait 2 beeps then drop the throttle full or disarm it and then pull the battery out next time you plug it in it will be calibrated Will sort that problem with your full throttle. but the problem with it at the start with it going slow sounds like it struggling you may need to plug esc into Blheil program and you might be able to sort the initial power output most important check your phases are correct A B C The red and black wire can go any way round on A/C to sort out the reverse of the motor but the B terminal pad the yellow wire always has to be in the middle which is terminal B/ yellow wire this makes the motor judder like that if B/yellow is in the wrong place
Wow... Very impressive! I think the motors are alright though, the rattling is probably coming from the ESC. Those outrunners seem to be made for high RPM's.
Hey, brush less motors are good , Really good and that's why basically all hobby grade RC cars use them. Not only planes and such however, the ESC is the problem that's the problem you're facing. All brush less motors have that common issue they perform really well at high speeds but not so much in lower speeds. The problem isn't the motor, motor is just wire and stators (unless it's a specialised brush less motor). The characteristics of these motors is entirely dependent on the speed controller (btw you're using a plane ESC I'd recommend using an ESC designed for a car as there are much less complications). But if you insist on using plane, Heli or quad ESC's use BLHELI_S esc's and their program. They eliminated the common problem of brushless motors not being able to run at slow speeds. So much so that I can see it spinning, quite amazing. This is the first time these kind of ESC's have been available to the public. If you're curious as to why they don't work as well, it's because the pulse that the copper coils receive is randomly sent at a certain speed by the esc. Common ESC's just shoot out pulses with its 3 patterns, doesn't even know what for. At slower speeds, the motors fail to sync up to the frequency of phase switching that the ESC does because there simply isn't enough current being supplied (basically motor can't carry itself properly) but when power is increased, the motor has enough energy to sync with the ESC's frequency and so it starts to spin properly. BLHELI_S ESC's sort of communicate with the motors by receiving the reflection of the pulse they just sent. A few clever calculations later, it can accurately depicte where the spinning magnets, or coil, is in relation to the stator and so fires the pulse at the right phase and time making it possible to spin at incredibly slow speeds. And this is just one amazing feature with blheli s. You can search on UA-cam, "blheli s slow rpm" , to learn more (Assuming you want a car with ediquate power and some speed) Personally, those motors and ESC's are way too small and underpowered for a 3rd scale vehicle. Even too small for a 1/10 scale tbh also batteries for this would be pretty huge and would need to take extra precautions for this(if you're using lipo like everyone else) if you tried connecting it up like regular smaller RC's you'd melt your connections or worse, they would mold together literally in a flash or decide "know what? I don't think you vehicle should exist, or your eyebrows for that matter". Common battery sparks are generally underpowered, but batteries of this calibre need extra care I short-circuited a 2Ah 70c 2s battery, I was left with exposed wire(I had an XC90 connector on it before it melted and evaporated, including the copper bits, battery was just fine btw). Would recommend to add a smaller wire (positive battery lead only, not the black one) connector to the esc so to plug it in first before plugging in the larger, juicier connector. If you feel I may be undermining your skills, I'm not I'd rather have absolute assurance that you're conducting your projects safely. Electricity is a lot more dangerous if not respected. Only reason we don't actually have any incidents is because we only use a small amount of our in our every day lives. Good luck with your project👍
Beautifully written comment, it's all spot on. I would disagree with your opinion on the motors though. I agree if he is going to be driving at higher speeds, they may be a tad small, but they are far to big for a 1/10 scale car. These are the size of outrunner motors you will find on many motorised skateboard kits. They should handle the torque of moving a car this size well enough if he had proper surface ESCs, but speeds will be limited.
I believe the stutter from the motors at low RPM is due to not having motors with higher torque, normally the higher the weight of the model the more torque(less rpm) the motors need to have.
Patience is key if you want to pioneer the next generation of R/C vehicles. Please do not disappoint after all this wait. Six months is but a drop in a bucket.
Your motor problem is not in the motor mate, it's a matter of firmware on the ESC. Plus I'm assuming that your are simply pulling the PWM signal straight from the RX into the ESC. This will give you the very most basic type of pulse modulation. (which is what the esc then uses to generate the actual stepping sync). A better ESC and proper configuration in respect to it's combi with the attached motor and pulsetrain will sort you out beautifully. Also i suggest taking a much lower KV rating for your fairly torqueheavy application. Absolutely stunning build. Im a huge fan.
I just subscribed. That thing is a masterpiece. I can't wait to see what you do for a transmission. The easy way.....slipper clutch and direct drive. After seeing the rest of the build. I'm guessing it will be much more than that. Awesome work! 🙂👍
This is correct, whats happening at low speeds is called 'cogging' ...its basically because the sensorless motor has trouble triggering the right coils because it doesnt know where the rotor is in relation to the stator.
You have to get the gas engine running it the engine and all your engineering of the drive train and coolant system is awesome screw the electric motors that gas engine is so cool and was that a supercharger in vid 5 your working on your very skilled I hope you work in a field where you put your skills to use you should be build race cars or engineering cars looks great keep it up
Step 1: Took my mouse off the mousepad, put it on the floor.Step 2: Handed myself a huge sledgehammerStep 3: Aimed down the cursor over "subscribe" button.Step 4: HIT THE MOUSE1 Button as hard as i could!
You realize that nothing will ever beat this? You’ve created the pinnacle. It’s over. Great job!
That jitter at really low rpm is normal for a sensorless motor and ESC. If that jitter is unacceptable, you'll need to get a sensored motor and ESC. The sensored setup has an additional wire loom, a data connection, between the motor and ESC for relaying rotor position and other data. As far as I know, there's no way of adding this to your current setup. Now, to be completely honest, all of my experience is with brushless inrunner motors. I run both sensored and sensorless in my rc cars. I have no experience with outrunner motors, but I believe the info is still valid. Hope this was helpful.
For whatever it's worth, I am thoroughly impressed with your talent and dedication to such a complicated project. I really enjoy getting to see your progress, thank you for sharing.
The stuttering comes from the ESC. You will need a sensored Motor. The non sensored one calculates the position of the motor by the back EMF which is at low speeds very little. As a result the ESC drives the Motor wrong. Because these Motors are usually made for airplanes etc. the tourqe required to turn the motor initialy is very little and the ESC gets his back EMF Signal pretty fast so almost no stuttering.
Love your work!
i second that, but dont think you need a sensor. just an ESC that can deal with low speeds, like in a RC Crawler.
True. I was going to suggest 'inrunner' motors as those look like they are used for very heavy lift multi rotor drones. I have the same type of motors on my old hexcopter - although mine are much smaller!
@@zacharias_b these are often sensored as well. You will never get a perfect result without, because the first split seconds are for the ESC just guessing what is going on. But Crawler stuff is a good recommendation to look for parts
Or you just just a VESC. These can move a longboard+rider perfectly smooth from a stand still, while running sensorless.
Plus they go up to 12s, feature current control, different control types (like PID speed control) and they can cope with just about any brush/bldc motor.
Yes, looks like the sensorless aspect is the reason. I've used these motors in helicopters so just bought them again without thinking any more of it.
If I'd researched more beforehand I'd probably still buy these in the end because of the price. I'll just have to accept the cogging but to be fair it doesn't do it much unless provoked with really low power.
Cheers everyone for the replies.
This machine has to be some of the most beautiful piece of work I've ever seen.
Hi Keith, these motors aren't sensored so on low speed they do this cogging, also the ESC isn't going to work for long without a proper colling system, it's meant for airplanes or heli's. If the motors would have a sensor then it would act like a stepper motor and can do those low rpm's without cogging. A proper car ESC can do low rpm's better and also without a sensor way better then this ESC does. I like the outrunner choice, but i can't wait to see and hear the actuall v10! What a nice build this is already :D
what an amazing project, the carbon parts are just beautiful
Sooo impressive. Can't wait to see it finished!
They're unsensored, that's why you have clogging at low speeds. A sensored motor/ speed control will give you alot more control at low speeds but for the size you'll need to move the thing will be expensive. Honestly I wouldn't bother if they're gonna be temporary. Also they're outrunner so more designed for planes, helps or quads so they'll be designed to have more control in the higher end of the throttle. Also only using lead acid won't give them the voltage requirements they require, stick some lipo batteries in there, that the motors can handle and you'll get more power out of it.
"Alot" is a town in India. "A lot" is more than one of something. "Allot" is to apportion something.
If you want to go smooth on brushless on really low rpm, you need sensored esc’s and sensored motors. They have another small cable besides the three phasing cables.
You are experiencing cogging, where the frequency of the ESC is trying to drive the motor at is not what the motor likes to see. With your rig up on stands, there is very little load for the motor to deal with. If you set it down and the motor has to move the whole weight of the vehicle, you will probably find that you need a higher frequency to get the motor spinning and push past the point of cogging.
Your build is going great! Anxious to see it out driving and a body get put on it.
what you sid is true but id alsolook at th esc timing
Senorloss motors always tend to cog at low speeds,Sensored dont have that issue
Not entirely true. Sensored means you have a rotary encoder built in to the motor so that the controller can know what position the stator is in. That can certainly help combat cogging by not just blindly sending pulses to the motor, but just because a motor controller knows the position the stator is in doesn't mean you can't cog the motor driving it with too low of a frequency relative to its load.
if you don't want cogging at all, go with a brushed motor.
Ive come in late to this build. But can anyone confirm that he has custom made nearly everything? Even the v10? No words. Hats off to you sir.
Yep, EVERYTHING
It's not finished yet, but already one of the best rc models on earth, absolutely awesome work keith 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
You need a sensored motor the same that are used in crawlers. The motors you have are sensorless. The ESC determines the position of the rotor with back EMF. When the motor is running one of the three coils is un used at a certian time. That coil produces voltage and the ESC measures it to determine positin. If the motor is running with a too low speed there is no voltage generated and the ESC can't sync with the rotor so it just simulates a slow rotating field to try to get a lock on the rotor. Sensored motors (and ESC needs to support sensors) has integrated hall effect sensors. This way the ESC always knows where the rotor is. This way you can run the motor with very low speeds.
_OUTSTANDING_ workmanship. Wow. The reason why those brushless motors twitch like that is because they and your ESC are sensorless. So without hall sensors, the only way for the speed controller to get a timing signal is from the back EMF coming from the undriven coils, which-in-turn requires that the rotor be moving - hence that twitching at startup.
Dude, you're probably the only person in the world doing this
What you are experiencing with the motor jolting is called cogging, and it happens with brushless sensorless motors because the ESC can’t tell where the rotor is at low rpm 👍🏼
Thanks for posting the only right answer, some people have no idea
The motors have to be sensored, the reason for the cogging effect is because its the ESC doesnt know which pole of the motor to fire.
That looks like an aircraft ESC. Getting a controller for cars will help. A prop has almost no load at start-up, and a car BL starts under high load, and requires different software. The ESC also seems a bit small for that motor. I suspect you will let the smoke out of it if you get that motor up to full power.
Cant wait to see it conpletely finished and see a speed run. Bet that v10 sounds amazing lol.
It's a work of art, you should work for bloody mclaren they would definantly want an engineer like you
This build is out of this world!
Thats pretty normal for a sensorless brushless motor. They depend on a signal which is generated by the spinning of the motor to time the phases. The only solutions are to eithr not spin them that slowly or use sensored motors.
Hey, the stuttering problem is caused by the motor and esc being out of sync. For it to work you would need a sensored motor as well as a sensored Esc. They use hall effect sensors to tell the esc which coil to activate so it can run smoothly at every possible rpm range.
They are wildly used on RC cars for that exact same problem.
Its not a problem unless youre in to slow shit like rock crawling, in wich you can just run a brushed motor instead. On a vehicle youre trying to go fast with there is no reason to have a sensored motor.
This is without a doubt the most incredible surface RC I've ever seen.
Keep going! Can't wait to see it run.
beautiful work as usual Keith! Nice to see you making a vehicle instead of just a test stand. I think when they are brushless motors some have sensors that detect rotor position, and some don't if they don't you get this jittering problem at low speeds
It's been so long since the last video I forgot I even subscribed
Love the build. Everything looks awesome. The motor stutter could be caused by a timing issue in the ESC. When it's first starting the ESC is flying blind so to speak and doesn't yet have any feedback from the motor. If it's programmable, you could try changing the timing/start-up optins. Or just get a sensored motor and ESC, though I assume you'd rather not for a temporary solution. It only really makes a difference at low speed/throttle. Couldn't hurt to check all the solder joints between the ESC and the motor. If anyone thinks I'm wrong, please correct me.
I can't find the words to describe this. Absolutely mind boggling.
Amazing project! As some have mentioned, the stutter at low speed is due to the sensorless brushless motor setup. On a brushless motor, the ESC needs to know the exact position of the rotor to time the motor windings properly. In sensorless design, this is done through back EMF which uses the drive coils within the motor to get an idea of rotor position. Unfortunately at stall speeds (ie zero or near zero RPM), the back EMF signal is almost useless since the rotor hasn't really begun to "spin" yet to generate a useable back EMF signal. Switching to a sensored brushless system will fix this issue and give you more starting torque. Happy building!
Excellent explanation, I was going to post myself and had to search semi-thoroughly to find this, gave a thumbs up so he can see.
I just want a crowd fund this thing!!! I have been following for so long.
Thanks for the update. Eagerly waiting for the next video
that´s a piece of fine arts, so beautiful. Would love to see a video of your testrun. greetings from austria.
Yeah the motor tremble is pretty normal for uncensored brushless motors. Especially when they are under powered they will tremble at low rpm. This could also be caused by the ESC/power source limiting current to the motor. With the size of the ESC compared to the the motor I think that is what's happening. BUT MAD RESPECT! That thing is awesome!
The whirring sound the motor makes when going slow is normal for brushless outrunner motors, no wories.
About the motor stuttering. Non sensored brushless motors do that. Nothing wrong with it.
That problem with the outrunner motors probably has to do with esc timing. Check the internet for a manual for your escs, if you have no programming card. Often they can be programmed simply by powering them up on full throttle and then following certain commands via throttle position.
Greetings
What I would suggest for a replacement to those motors would be to get some sensored brushless outruners (and ESC's) instead of the sensorless ones that you have, the main difference between the two kinds of brushless motors are that the sensored ones have a Hall effect sensor that makes it so that the ESC can tell what position the the permanent magnets are relative to the electro magnets which eliminates that cogging action the sensorless motors have at low rpm under such load, it also makes the motors have more torque
The sensor-less type speed controller gets feed back directly from the windings. The hunting effect at start up is the speed controller trying to work out which direction the motor is turning.
This has to be the coolest project I have ever seen
Out standing craftsmanship well done can't wait to see it finished in all its glory 🤯
This is truly a piece of art,probably the best fabrication RC work I’ve ever seen.I would hate to see how many thousands of dollars its costed to get where your at now,but cant wait to see it completely done and a video of u driving it will be amazing
this 1/3th rc is a piece of art !! i build 1/10 , 1/8th steel monster trucks, you may have a look and judge for yourself how they perform on my channel !
As I said in the last video, I will not die until I see this thing run when it is 100% built
Your speed controller causes the motors to squeek like that.
These seem like airplane esc's, they are not at all designed for start up torque. If you now try to move a heavy object from standstill, they can't sync the motor, which causes the horrible noise. Also, don't do it too long at a time, in this state, current can be enormous.
2 ways to solve this:
-Large RC car esc, they do better
-A VESC, they are the optimum and have all the adjust ability one could want.
Hope that helps
Yep, car esc will work better. Also try a motor with a lower kv rating.
@@willburnham678 tho i'd still recommend the vesc, they simply offer more features that come in especially handy at such a heavy vehicle.
What you experienced is “cogging”, and it happens with unsensored brushless systems. at low RPMs. A sensored ESC and motor allows for smooth operation from top to bottom.
Fantastic job and I have been sharing your subscription location and information with as many people as possible. I don’t have but a few shares are public on my account profile but yours definitely is one that I hoped more people would subscribe to help you with your account and project. Please keep it going and good luck.
The motor chattering is coming from the ESC, it just can't drive them at slow speeds. You'd need Field Oriented Control or a Sensored ESC. The regular RC hobby ESCs can't do either. Might want to check out Vedders Open Source ESC, it can do pretty much everything: vedder.se/2015/01/vesc-open-source-esc/
Hobby ESCs can do it, the issue is these motors lack a sensor system so they can't run sensored.
Never give up this project! This video, as well as all previous vidjayos, are very antisapated by many people.
Since I didn't notice this mentioned in the comments, Brushless motors don't have much of a starting torque, that's why it's struggling to get going.
truly amazing. you have an amazing build. my mind is absolutely boggled. hat off to you sir. keep up the good work
The reason your BLDC is behaving like that is because (it looks like) it's sensorless, which don't run great at low speed. The controller uses induction to know when to switch, of which there isn't a lot at low speed.
You can either go with more aggressive gearing or a motor with a lower KV rating to reduce the problem, or go sensored.
Wow this thing is being built really well
The motor is "Cogging" this is because the ESC is SENSORLESS and does not know where is the rotor positioned in the magnetic field so it "guesses" at first, When it starts to run then the ESC can detect with resistance what pole is next in line so it smooths out the turning of the motor.
You need a SENSORED MOTOR and ESC.. There are a few outrunner motors that do run in Sensored mode, This will smooth out the low speed initial speed.
Mate for someone who says he doesn't know so often you're pretty f****** clever I think you should take this for a tour around world because I'm sure a lot of people would like to see it for real and shake your hand ,keep going, you're about half way now🤙
With your amazing ability to make and machine things have you thought about building turbo chargers for you every little 10 Cylinder?I am utterly amazed at the motor, I used to build motors for sprint cars as a side line while spending my days job as a fire truck technician, I could knock out a 3 angle valve job and things like this but your work takes things to a whole new level. I am really impressed with you motor!
Thanks. Yes, a turbo sounds like a nice little project. I don’t think it could be made to produce much boost at this scale though, but if I could get, say 3 or 4 psi out of one then I’d be happy to bolt it on.
@@Keith5700 you could make a mini supercharger and gear the heck out of that
You sir.... are beyond talented. And the patience you have is second to none. Beautiful work. It's like artwork.
Best controller for those motors is called 'VESC' they are cheapest from flipsky. Even with your sensorless motors vesc controllers should be smoother and are fully tuneable to deliver maximum power to the motors
do you mean sensored esc? also are you talking about FlySky?
@@chad9160 VESC is the name of an open source ESC. It is sensored yes but can also run sensorless. You can buy them from many places but flipsky is the cheapest. Google 'Flipsky vesc'
@@liam_evangelista oh nice, it's crazy how much technology we can pack into tiny quad and plane sized esc 😀
@@chad9160 Definitely. The focbox unity is a version that can power two motors up to 12S / 60A each and its very compact for what it does with bluetooth communication etc
Beautiful work, I really like the front suspension .I just purchased my 1st Large(1/5)scale race truck. 2 stroke gasoline.
I can't wait to see this thing run man
I just wanted to say that I've had similar issues with RC brushless outrunner motors before. I discovered was that it was because I was using an ESC of too higher power... I was trying to use (from memory) a 70A ESC on a motor that only required a 20A ESC on a small model aeroplane park flyer. It was fine and flew with no issues other that at very low throttle, the motor reacted exactly as yours did here.
You need sensored motors, and higher discharge rate batteries.
Nice work.
Stuttering is usually either intermittent connection or timing issue on ESC firmware. Other causes can be ground loops (not very likely in this scenario) and badly wound motors.
That cogging due to the type of ESC you are using (there are onroad esc's that are sensorless and work well). The ones you are using are made for aircraft where there isn't a load at very low rpm. Another issue is, is that they are also not made for high loads and will burn out quite quick in something like this. look at hobbywing onroad escs for a cheap setup. But anyway amazing work my friend the attention to detail blew me away.
Iv been watching the progress of this build and your work is absolutely amazing!
That’s what you call low speed clogging, it a bit common with sensorless brushless motors. You also will need a much bigger ESC because those are way too small to handle any amperage.
Absolutely amazing. The machining and engineering is simply art.
Get motors with encoders. The esc is using feed back from the motor to get its timing and at low rpm they tend to be Inaccurate for whatever reason. By using a separate encoder u can maintain to accuracy. Instead of twitching until the esc notices the right feedback you will get a constant torque until the encoder reads it's time to switch coils in your motor.
Beyond impressive , as are you sir.
The firmware on the esc needs changing. There will be a recommended firmware from The manufacturers to fix that. You can also do a firmware esc calibration and tell it what revs / current is on the bottom end of going active. Remember when the wheels are on the ground that initial jump will hardly be noticed due to the weight to torque correlation.
can't wait to see it runing.
With un'sensored brushless motors, there is a slight glitch/phase that happens around 0-1% throttle. I have 10 years R/C experiance and sponsorships, very common thing with un'sensored motors. Nothings wrong with it, i raced a 540 Can 3300kv un'sensored motor got a whole year on my smaller scale. Just dont hover around the 0-1% range, and you"ll be good 👍
You are the mad scientist of RC cars well done
Not sure if waiting more for this to be ready or Rob Dahmns 4 rotor
I bet $10 internet dollars this is finished first... Rob ain't ever gonna finish that 4 rotor :(
Atleast he is putting videos of it almost daily :)
Brushless motors cogging as others have said. Might be able to change ESC timing but ultimately as others have said, you probably want a sensored motor to get rid of that or you could try gearing down.
This however is the most bad ass RC I have ever seen. The machine and design work is incredible. Top stuff mate
That is a really awesome project!!! Nice craftsmanship, using nice thick quality materials to make parts. You should definitely upload more often ,even if it's small progress. This is a unique project!
when you do get a chance to run it,be very careful with the new komet tyres,on a kart they offer very little grip until they have been scrubbed in,you can speed up the process by using a belt sander to get remove the shiny finish,once you have sanded them clean them with carb cleaner,it has acetone wheich softens the rubber ,it should make them slightly tacky which is more preferable,
great build btw
Calibrate the ESC Put at full throttle before plug-in the battery and plug the battery with it still full throttle wait 2 beeps then drop the throttle full or disarm it and then pull the battery out next time you plug it in it will be calibrated Will sort that problem with your full throttle. but the problem with it at the start with it going slow sounds like it struggling you may need to plug esc into Blheil program and you might be able to sort the initial power output most important check your phases are correct A B C The red and black wire can go any way round on A/C to sort out the reverse of the motor but the B terminal pad the yellow wire always has to be in the middle which is terminal B/ yellow wire this makes the motor judder like that if B/yellow is in the wrong place
The esc has just three black wires to the motor. Esc is overlander xp2 80A.
Fantastic! Love how everything is so neat and tidy. You are really skilled, and I can't wait to see how this progresses!
Yes, but you should see the state of my workshop!
Cant wait till it completes....keep up
Thats a bloody good build brian. Im looking forward to a good winter build and clear skies too. Winter star gazing and 420.
Let me guess, you build that camera too. Jesus Christ your a genius.
I must say i falling for your work design. Beautiful. Clean and jazzy.
I wish i could
Great build 👍👍watch out traxxas don’t sue you
Man I can't wait to see this thing finished. I'm in love
You need a sensored brushless motor no more cogging
Wow... Very impressive! I think the motors are alright though, the rattling is probably coming from the ESC. Those outrunners seem to be made for high RPM's.
Hey, brush less motors are good
, Really good and that's why basically all hobby grade RC cars use them. Not only planes and such however, the ESC is the problem that's the problem you're facing. All brush less motors have that common issue they perform really well at high speeds but not so much in lower speeds. The problem isn't the motor, motor is just wire and stators (unless it's a specialised brush less motor). The characteristics of these motors is entirely dependent on the speed controller (btw you're using a plane ESC I'd recommend using an ESC designed for a car as there are much less complications). But if you insist on using plane, Heli or quad ESC's use BLHELI_S esc's and their program. They eliminated the common problem of brushless motors not being able to run at slow speeds. So much so that I can see it spinning, quite amazing. This is the first time these kind of ESC's have been available to the public.
If you're curious as to why they don't work as well, it's because the pulse that the copper coils receive is randomly sent at a certain speed by the esc. Common ESC's just shoot out pulses with its 3 patterns, doesn't even know what for. At slower speeds, the motors fail to sync up to the frequency of phase switching that the ESC does because there simply isn't enough current being supplied (basically motor can't carry itself properly) but when power is increased, the motor has enough energy to sync with the ESC's frequency and so it starts to spin properly. BLHELI_S ESC's sort of communicate with the motors by receiving the reflection of the pulse they just sent. A few clever calculations later, it can accurately depicte where the spinning magnets, or coil, is in relation to the stator and so fires the pulse at the right phase and time making it possible to spin at incredibly slow speeds. And this is just one amazing feature with blheli s. You can search on UA-cam, "blheli s slow rpm" , to learn more
(Assuming you want a car with ediquate power and some speed) Personally, those motors and ESC's are way too small and underpowered for a 3rd scale vehicle. Even too small for a 1/10 scale tbh also batteries for this would be pretty huge and would need to take extra precautions for this(if you're using lipo like everyone else) if you tried connecting it up like regular smaller RC's you'd melt your connections or worse, they would mold together literally in a flash or decide "know what? I don't think you vehicle should exist, or your eyebrows for that matter". Common battery sparks are generally underpowered, but batteries of this calibre need extra care I short-circuited a 2Ah 70c 2s battery, I was left with exposed wire(I had an XC90 connector on it before it melted and evaporated, including the copper bits, battery was just fine btw). Would recommend to add a smaller wire (positive battery lead only, not the black one) connector to the esc so to plug it in first before plugging in the larger, juicier connector.
If you feel I may be undermining your skills, I'm not I'd rather have absolute assurance that you're conducting your projects safely. Electricity is a lot more dangerous if not respected. Only reason we don't actually have any incidents is because we only use a small amount of our in our every day lives. Good luck with your project👍
Beautifully written comment, it's all spot on. I would disagree with your opinion on the motors though. I agree if he is going to be driving at higher speeds, they may be a tad small, but they are far to big for a 1/10 scale car. These are the size of outrunner motors you will find on many motorised skateboard kits. They should handle the torque of moving a car this size well enough if he had proper surface ESCs, but speeds will be limited.
@@DeadnCold I'd rather use inrunners for speedy cars but outrunners for crawlers and high torque systems too
I believe the stutter from the motors at low RPM is due to not having motors with higher torque, normally the higher the weight of the model the more torque(less rpm) the motors need to have.
You have to use sensored brushless motors to avoid a bad start up
Man this thing is so awesome! Can't wait to see it finished. Such beautiful craftsmanship
Sensorless motors do that at low speeds. You need a sensored setup
Patience is key if you want to pioneer the next generation of R/C vehicles. Please do not disappoint after all this wait. Six months is but a drop in a bucket.
Your motor problem is not in the motor mate, it's a matter of firmware on the ESC.
Plus I'm assuming that your are simply pulling the PWM signal straight from the RX into the ESC. This will give you the very most basic type of pulse modulation. (which is what the esc then uses to generate the actual stepping sync). A better ESC and proper configuration in respect to it's combi with the attached motor and pulsetrain will sort you out beautifully. Also i suggest taking a much lower KV rating for your fairly torqueheavy application.
Absolutely stunning build. Im a huge fan.
Also sensored motors and ESC's would be an idea too.
Yes I'm looking at a whole new setup, with twin, bigger motors and a dual vesc controller, from alienpowersupplies.
@@SgtStinger certainly better i agree
@@Keith5700 sounds good👍
I just subscribed. That thing is a masterpiece. I can't wait to see what you do for a transmission. The easy way.....slipper clutch and direct drive. After seeing the rest of the build. I'm guessing it will be much more than that. Awesome work! 🙂👍
You are using Motors dedicated for airplanes and other flying RC stuff^^
Get sensed Motors and escs and you are fine
Great work that buggy is a true piece of art can't wait to see it run
You need sensored brushless motor set up for low speed
This is correct, whats happening at low speeds is called 'cogging' ...its basically because the sensorless motor has trouble triggering the right coils because it doesnt know where the rotor is in relation to the stator.
you can combat that cogging with a vesc-esc. Or sensored motors. A good car esc would probably help to.
Awesome work so far :)!
You have to get the gas engine running it the engine and all your engineering of the drive train and coolant system is awesome screw the electric motors that gas engine is so cool and was that a supercharger in vid 5 your working on your very skilled I hope you work in a field where you put your skills to use you should be build race cars or engineering cars looks great keep it up
I used to make full sized cars, then tried model helicopters, then thought I'd have a go at a car. Don't know what I'll try next tho.
Keith5700 you are extremely skilled my friend. I am thoroughly impressed. I can’t wait to see that v10 under load.
@@Keith5700 next 1/2 scale
Amazing masterpiece, but I would not have been able to resist going a bit bigger so I could fit in it. 😎🤙.......and drive it.
Step 1: Took my mouse off the mousepad, put it on the floor.Step 2: Handed myself a huge sledgehammerStep 3: Aimed down the cursor over "subscribe" button.Step 4: HIT THE MOUSE1 Button as hard as i could!
Just a great idea, may i ask will i need a new mouse and what size sledge lol really made my day Evan
You gonna drive that thing?! holy crap it’s huge! Your amazing!