Here is more detail about Magic Numbers: Microstep angles aren’t equal which causes the variations in layers that I showed without magic numbers. If your bed is leveled manually or autolevel at a microstep, using magic numbers makes layers rise to that same microstep thus averaging out those variations and giving a consistent layer height as the closeup view shows,
Excellent video as usual ! That explains why I see a lot of people printing in 0.16 and I'm like "Why the hell?". I guess that there's no visual difference with 0.1 on their printer and it's way faster to print... Are these numbers working with the CR10S Pro ? (Yes, that's the one I have since almost 2 months :D).
Just set my Ender 3 to 0.12 and WOW! Way better quality than just 0.10. Should normally not see a difference og just 0.02mm, but it went from small ripples on a flat wall, to an almost glass-like finish! Thanks ALOT!
I've been printing for years, and I knew all of the basics you used in the explanation, but I've never thought about this concept, nor have I heard anyone explain it so concisely before. You are a great teacher and probably the best resource for people wanting to get started in 3D printing!
Amazing teacher. You, Ricky impey, and Tomb of 3Dprinted Horrors, have taught me basically all I know about the back end of printing. And my prints are IMMACULATE these days no matter how complex and my knowledge has increased tenfold. Thank you!!
Normally I don't give thumbs up on videos but this guy earned. Nice considering information straight to the point. Relative and not a 25minute video. I wish videoswere like these now day.
I'm binge watching ender 3 tips while I'm waiting on delivery of my first printer I have to say, you seem to have the most knowledge and best tips that I've seen. I don't want to put others down and makers muse does have some tips but he's greatly biased when it comes to the creality and he's mostly putting it down. The 3d nerd also has great tips but I still think he's 2nd to you. Thank you
I've been using these numbers successfully for quite a few months now after watching a video a while back about "minifigs" or miniature figurines and how to achieve the best possible quality using the smallest detail settings for Cura. That opened my eyes to working specifically with the nozzle size and stepper movements to achieve insane detail. But your video was the first to show the microscopic details of the layers and just how well those numbers are actually benefiting and for that I thank you, Chep! You continue to share such wonderful advice and best of all, in video lengths that are easily digestible vs these other 15-20 min vids.
This is the most informative channel on 3D printing. Period. Short, sweet, straight to the point, clean audio, great examples. I am learning so much as a beginner!
Thank you for this explanation. I was getting a lot of stringing. After attempting a couple of different things I found this and voila problem solved. Terrific channel, keep up the good work.
You are Fantastic, Mr. Chep. I love all your vids, specially technical like this one !. Cheers and greetings from Santiago de Chile, South America. John.
Folks, you gotta find the right layer heights for your *own* hardware, you can’t just use his numbers. Your motors might have 400 steps per revolution, or your lead screw might have a different pitch. Find your own printer specs and use the Prusa Calculator to get your own optimal layer heights.
i have watched this video 6 times every time with the intention to implement it and today i didn't have an excuse and oh boy does it make a difference, great video a must for any printer. 1.48mm layer height
Chuck, thanks for a great visual explanation. I found a way to override the default layer heights in Cura 3.6.0. 1. Close the Cura 3.6.0. 2. Open the folder "C:\Program Files\Ultimaker Cura 3.6 esources\quality\" in Explorer. 3. Using a text editor, make the following changes to these files: extra_fast.inst.cfg: layer_height = 0.28 fast.inst.cfg: layer_height = 0.16 high.inst.cfg: layer_height = 0.08 normal.inst.cfg: //you need to add new string into the [values] section: layer_height = 0.12 4. Save the changes. 5. Open the Cura 3.6.0. 6. Profit!
I have to congratulate you on what is (in my opinion) probably the most informative UA-cam channel I have found. I have a CR-10 by the way. Magic numbers eh? Well I'm blowed! Makes perfect sense after you explained it in such clear detail. I'm printing some prototype motorcycle parts in PLA, and just changed my layer height from 0.3mm (0.4mm nozzle) to 0.32mm layer height and the quality has doubled. No more strange lines. Excellent. Changed all my other little settings to 0.04mm multiples and for sure there's major improvements. Also, I followed your tutorial on the adaptive layers. Oh man, why haven't I used this before? I just printed a small shaft that has an M5 external thread either side of a larger diameter, barrel shaped body. Previously I would have printed the whole thing at say a 0.1mm layer height to make sure I get a useable thread, and it would have taken forever. Now with adaptive layers, and of course the "Magic Numbers" it's printed out like a dream. Layer height is 0.08mm on the external threads and 0.32mm on the barrel section. And with no post processing, it screws into the little thumbwheel I printed out previous to that. Perfecto!!!
Someone has been listening to you! The CreawsomeMod on Cura 4.1 implements 0.12mm, 0.16mm, 0.20mm, and 0.28mm layers .. all mutliples of 0.04. The Maker's muse has a dirty trick for super fast drafts using 0.3mm layers and some other tricks... 0.32 is an awfully coarse extension of the magic number. It will probably look like hell, but maybe I'll try a small print to see what happens.
Thanks for the video. I just got a Creality 6SE. I've got a LOT of learning to do. Once I get past the learning curve, I plan to custom print a cab for my RC Tamiya truck!
I was trying really hard to understand the math behind that, but this video does not explain the relation between Marlin settings and microsteps. This video is definitely correct in conclusion, but: - Z axis on Ender 3 and Ender 5 (first version with T8x8) uses in Marlin 400 steps/mm - Ender 3 and Ender 5 on stock boards uses 16 microsteps - Now, the actual amount of real steps per mm is `400 / 16 = 25` - They use 1.8o stepper motors, which translates to 200 real steps, so the full revolution translates to `200 / 25 = 8 mm` - The actual accuracy is `1mm / 25 = 0.04 mm`, this is the layer high that can be achieved without using microsteps - This means that on Ender 3 the best achievable layer high on 0.4 nozzle is 0.12, as 0.08 is too small Additionally, there's Ender 5 with T8x4 which uses more tight screw with 800 steps/mm: - The `800 / 16 = 50 real steps / mm`, `200 / 50 = 4 mm` per revolution - `1mm / 50 = 0.02 mm accuracy` - This means that on Ender 5 with T8x4 the best achievable layer high on 0.4 nozzle is 0.1 mm - You can increase accuracy on Ender 3 by replacing lead screw to TRx8 and achieve the same as for a newer Ender 5
Your videos are probably the most well explained information I can find on UA-cam. Amazing work, I know this one is 3 years old, but please keep up the great work!
honestly probably because info segments are more basic and lower production value than others like tom s and makers muse. Doesnt stop me thinking this is a super useful channel though, and i keep coming back
Excited, just put my first printer together tonight. Chose the Ender 3 and I'm down for quality and savings! Appreciate your channel, happy I discovered it. Cheers!
That's fantastic. These videos are awesome btw, ime systematically going through almost everything to learn as much as I can about 3d printing and your information is very clear and to the point which I appreciate.
Thank you for showing these Magic Numbers Chuck, when I first got my first 3D printer, I asked the awesome team at gCreate how does the layer height work with this printer and that is exactly the numbers I was given and i get amazing prints. This should be shared everywhere, super valuable information. 😎👍
Thank you! I had known of magic numbers, but thought them dubious because I'm my experience I didn't experiment enough to see improvements, you have proven your work with this video and I will give it another shot, thank you!
The seven minutes time saved using the "magic number" didn't really have anything to do with the magic number itself. You simply printed fewer layers (0.12 vs 0.1 layer height gives fewer layers for the same model), and that's the only reason you saved time. I know that you know this, but it would perhaps be a good idea to mention it, as some people might believe that the printer prints faster when using a magic number multiple for layer height. Which it does not.
But he did say that that's exactly what he said no quality difference but you save 7 minutes He explicitly noted that on close examination there is a difference but not really under naked eye examination so you might as well use the slightly larger their height to save some time and technically improve your print quality
The point is that he made it sound like if you used the magic number there would be a time gain. Which isn't necessarily true, unless you always round up the layer height to the nearest multiple of the magic number. If you round down instead, then your print will take longer. Even if you used the magic number.
I clearly stated if you use 0.8 instead of 0.6, 0.12 instead of 0.1, 0.16 instead of 0.15, you will see the same or better quality at a quicker print time.
@@mroek I think most people who would find this video would also intuitively understand that if they rounded down to 0.08mm instead of up to 0.12mm that their print time would be longer than at 0.10mm layer height. Chuck didn't explicitly state this, but he did explicitly state that moving UP in layer height provides the same or better quality with faster print times.
On the video, you only change the layer height from 0.1 to 0.12 mm. Why did not you change the initial layer height to 0.24 mm and also the top and bottom layer heights to 0.12 mm multiple ? (In that case you had for bottom and top 6.0 mm layer height. 0.12 x 5 = 6.0 mm, so it works.)
THANK YOU CHEP!! I just got my Ender 3 pro and this already made my prints look a little better. I thought they were decent before but this makes the layers more consistent and even.
Changing my Cura Adaptive Layer to 0.20 layer, max 0.12 deviation, and 0.04 steps. That should get me layers from 0.08 to 0.32, all multiples of 0.4 and max 80% of nozzle. Was using 0.25, 0.15, 0.05.
Yes, good idea. I would expect you’ll see slightly higher print times but better quality. Especially with your original settings allowing up to 0.4 layer height which is larger than the 80%. I will experiment with this as well.
@@FilamentFriday I noticed occasionally under extrusion at 0.4 so lowering the max was already on the list, but first I wanted to flash marlin 1.1.9, which I did yesterday, now printing the all in one micro print test with the new settings and marlin 1.1.9, its halfway and looks promising, speed at 90/60 mm/s
My friend thank you so very much I have dialed in my CR-10 and she is running much smoother, it's funny how you take the presets for granted. I will be linking this for people a lot in the future Cheers!
Thanks Chuck - great to find someone with your experience saying this! I found it out the hard way on my resin printer, where the effects were very noticeable due to what turned out to be using 0.035mm layer heights when a natural single-step layer being 0.040mm. Took me a while to figure out, and many people insisted I was mistaken - yet the print results speak for themselves so I've been quietly continuing with layer heights that are multiples of 0.040mm regardless :)
I doubt this has any recreatable effects on prints. For this effect to work you have to assume your home position is EXACTLY on a natural step of the motor. Fairly unscientific and not rigorous at all. I would need more evidence to support this claim.
Justin Moritz - It doesn’t have to start at a natural step. I explain in the comment above yours. And loads of people have used them and see great results.
Justin Moritz the supposed answer to this is moving from one micro step to the “same” micro step is more consistent than moving to different micro steps. I don’t believe this for a second, and considering all the other variables that can effect a print layer I’d be very surprised if any inconsistency in micro steps was affecting print quality on one of these machines. If the magic number was really a thing you would expect to see any flaws caused by the micro steps repeated with mathematical consistency through the entirety of the print. Most people claiming magic numbers solved their problems don’t have problems that would be consistent with this issue. And I’m baffled as to why this would supposedly make a print run faster.
I dunno, seems your cherry picking your results when your looking under a microscope because under your 0.12 layer you can clearly see bigger blobs at the bottom but you chose to ignore them and point to smaller ones
Seems like your cherry picking a video to make a point. I’ve had 1000’s of people actually use these numbers in the slicer and report the same results as mine. Much smoother prints. Ive since shared my profiles with them and have seen moe people state they are getting better prints. So I stand by what I showed and stated. The bottom of that print was another issue I covered in later videos.
@@FilamentFriday yeah I don't think we're on the same page on what cherry picking means. I could only be cherry picking if there were many videos and I picked the 1 that showed fault. But then for me to be cherry picking in this sense you would have to be acknowledging there is a fault for me to pick at...
Hi there , I just wanted to say thank you. I am new to printing and have been having pretty good success thanks to your videos. love what you are doing. keep up the great work. love my ender 3 so far.
Excellent video! I was recommended this video by a thread on Reddit and I gotta say, I love your detailed explanation of how this works. I'm amazed I never thought about this considering I have a fair understanding of stepper motors. The things you don't know, that you don't know! Thanks for enlightening me/us on this topic! Prints are coming out much smoother using the step increment (0.04mm) for my Ender 3! Keep up the great work!
My first Chep video, and I'm very impressed and pleased. You got a new subscriber. This was a very enlightening video. Informative and easy to understand. Thank you very much.
For anyone struggling to get the mm per revolution, remember that the rods generally have 4 threads running along them. You should measure the distance between threads, and then multiply it by the number of threads running along the rod. For example 2mm pitch in a rod with 4 threads, is 8mm per revolution that is mentioned here.
estcap2 this is an important point, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that’s typical. Mine just uses regular single start threaded rod. I have a 3018 CNC with quadruple start leadscrews, and some spare dual-start leadscrews. You pay attention to “pitch” for single start threads, and “lead” for multiple start leadscrews 👍
I am new to this art and science, and just printed an extruder knob at .12 a huge difference. This is the first time since the Dog test \ example print, that I am getting smooth glossy layers! Thank you!
Using Cura with variable layer height (3.4.1 in experimental) and I'm quite happy with it regarding both speed and quality. Set it now to initial layer height 0.28, default 0.2 with maximum variation 0.08 and interval 0.04... ... just great!
Love your videos Chep! educational, short and to the point, and it really helps people like me who are just getting into 3D printing as a hobby. 2 thumbs up from me! Look forward to watching your other videos!
Brilliant info, and thank you for the series. You're clear, concise and your audio is great! Always a pleasure to find another of your videos. I have a project right now with a very complicated stl and for some unknown reason whenever I use your numbers, an unwanted flat solid layer appears in the Cura slice. I'm sure it's my lack of modelling skills but here are my results: 0.16 made a line at 1454 and takes 4d 20:49 587g 178.86m (it's a lifesize head ;-) 0.20 made a line at 1075 and takes 3d 21:41 621g 187.02m 0.21 got rid of unwanted lines and takes 3d 14:56 601g 180.93m 0.24 made a line at 869 and takes 3d 08:05 643g 193.65m I'd like to follow your numbers to help with the post finishing but can't see how I can. Either way, much appreciated tip! ~ Future Patron?
This is by far the most interesting video I've seen so far !!! I'll try it out when my 48h print is over ;) Thanks for the explanations, your "english" is extremly easy to understand even for a french guy like me. You rock ;)
For all with an Ender 5 (pro) with a lead screw with a pitch of 4 mm. The magic number should now be in 0.02 mm increments. I'm not sure if the magic numbers will work if you use a BLTouch. Since the first layer gets fine tuned to the actual bed level and this hight hasn't to be a magic number. The hight can even change due to the x-y position.
As someone who is pretty new to this, but trying to learn everything, I just wanted to thank you for your videos! I personally have an Ender 3 that I got for Christmas, and I have been playing with different settings in Cura to try and get more consistent prints. Your explanation for "natural steps" was really well done, and it answers a question I had about layer height, and what would make the most sense! I noticed in Cura that the resolutions they offer by default didn't really seem to have a consistent interval to them, and this helps me understand what I need to be doing instead. I don't usually comment on videos, but I just wanted to say thank you! I definitely subscribed, and look forward to seeing more super helpful content from you! ...I am now going to go binge watch all of your videos and start testing things on my Ender 3 that you suggest! Thank you so much!
Your diagram is for a five wire stepper, 3D printers normally use four wire steppers. That’s the two opposite coils in series or parallel (in appropriate orientation) and no connection to a common point. There’s also six (your diagram but each set of two is separate) and eight wire (each coil coming out separately) arrangements. On four wire steppers, you have coil pair A and coil pair B. First you energize A in one direction, then B, then A in the other direction, etc. The five wire model is easier because you only have to switch four + in sequence (well, more usually you’d have the power + in the center and pull the four wires down in sequence), and in the four wire model you have to put - on one side and + on the other, and then reverse that. Hence why we need specialized chips to do it instead of a few transistors. This of course in no way detracts from your “try to match layer heights to full steps” point.
Later versions of Cura nowadays has the proper printer profiles with those "magic numbers". No need to manually create profiles any more for this reason alone. With version 4.6 I just told it to use the included Ender 3 printer profile, and it had all the settings dialed in for the printer in question.
Makes sense, hard to guarantee that the first layer won't start at a microstep height though? resulting in all subsequent layers being off the "natural" step positions. However, your results don't lie. Will have to switch it up to 0.28 or 0.32 when I'm after those fast big prints. Cheers mate.
Thanks for this Chuck.. Always used these values on my A8 for the last 3 years and was a little surprised to see the Cura defaults for my new E3.. Hadn't got around to checking it yet, so many thanks :)
This is a brilliant observation, though I would prefer to refer to the magic number as the Z-step ratio or something of the like. Can't wait to test this out!
In Cura, I usually use adaptive layers to smooth out curved surfaces or shorten taller print times with little variation on the z-axis. I noticed that I can set the 'Adaptive layers maximum variation' and 'Adaptive layers variation step size' to multiples of 0.04.
Good video and tip. I came to this from another way to get my optimum z height. For me it was fighting with first layer height and a feeler gauge. Kept getting slightly different measurements when I told the z to go to .2mm. Finally I looked up the specs for the motor and did the math.
Here is more detail about Magic Numbers:
Microstep angles aren’t equal which causes the variations in layers that I showed without magic numbers. If your bed is leveled manually or autolevel at a microstep, using magic numbers makes layers rise to that same microstep thus averaging out those variations and giving a consistent layer height as the closeup view shows,
Excellent video as usual !
That explains why I see a lot of people printing in 0.16 and I'm like "Why the hell?". I guess that there's no visual difference with 0.1 on their printer and it's way faster to print...
Are these numbers working with the CR10S Pro ? (Yes, that's the one I have since almost 2 months :D).
Yes, I believe it’s the same.
Just set my Ender 3 to 0.12 and WOW! Way better quality than just 0.10. Should normally not see a difference og just 0.02mm, but it went from small ripples on a flat wall, to an almost glass-like finish! Thanks ALOT!
Thanks for watching
Any idea what the formula would be for figuring out a delta?
I've been printing for years, and I knew all of the basics you used in the explanation, but I've never thought about this concept, nor have I heard anyone explain it so concisely before. You are a great teacher and probably the best resource for people wanting to get started in 3D printing!
Thanks.
The latest Cura (4.6.1) has these numbers dialled in already, Ultimaker obviously watch your channel!
Instant subscription for the clarity, quality and insight!
Amazing teacher. You, Ricky impey, and Tomb of 3Dprinted Horrors, have taught me basically all I know about the back end of printing. And my prints are IMMACULATE these days no matter how complex and my knowledge has increased tenfold. Thank you!!
It look like Cura took your advice their layer heights are now 0.12, 0.16, 0.2 0.28! :)
It’s not his advice lol
Normally I don't give thumbs up on videos but this guy earned. Nice considering information straight to the point. Relative and not a 25minute video. I wish videoswere like these now day.
I'm binge watching ender 3 tips while I'm waiting on delivery of my first printer I have to say, you seem to have the most knowledge and best tips that I've seen.
I don't want to put others down and makers muse does have some tips but he's greatly biased when it comes to the creality and he's mostly putting it down.
The 3d nerd also has great tips but I still think he's 2nd to you. Thank you
Those guys are superstars in our 3D printing UA-cam world. To be compared to them as you do is a great honor. Thank you. And Thanks for watching.
I've been using these numbers successfully for quite a few months now after watching a video a while back about "minifigs" or miniature figurines and how to achieve the best possible quality using the smallest detail settings for Cura. That opened my eyes to working specifically with the nozzle size and stepper movements to achieve insane detail. But your video was the first to show the microscopic details of the layers and just how well those numbers are actually benefiting and for that I thank you, Chep! You continue to share such wonderful advice and best of all, in video lengths that are easily digestible vs these other 15-20 min vids.
This is the most informative channel on 3D printing. Period. Short, sweet, straight to the point, clean audio, great examples. I am learning so much as a beginner!
Thanks
Thank you for this explanation. I was getting a lot of stringing. After attempting a couple of different things I found this and voila problem solved. Terrific channel, keep up the good work.
Very interesting, i just downloaded the latest Cura update and the now offer 0.12 0.16 0.20 and 0.28 as the default layer heights.
Great info Chuck. 4 years 3D printing and never stumbled across this before. 👍
Based on the info gathered here, I changed my Z stepper to a 0.9 degree and 1mm Pitch SS Lead Screw. It now takes a day and a half to home the Z axis.
You are Fantastic, Mr. Chep.
I love all your vids, specially technical like this one !.
Cheers and greetings from Santiago de Chile, South America. John.
finally! I'm glad someone explained this to new people / people that didn't know, it makes a WORLD of difference, I use .12 or .2 on my anet a8
Folks, you gotta find the right layer heights for your *own* hardware, you can’t just use his numbers. Your motors might have 400 steps per revolution, or your lead screw might have a different pitch. Find your own printer specs and use the Prusa Calculator to get your own optimal layer heights.
i have watched this video 6 times every time with the intention to implement it and today i didn't have an excuse and oh boy does it make a difference, great video a must for any printer. 1.48mm layer height
Chuck, thanks for a great visual explanation. I found a way to override the default layer heights in Cura 3.6.0.
1. Close the Cura 3.6.0.
2. Open the folder "C:\Program Files\Ultimaker Cura 3.6
esources\quality\" in Explorer.
3. Using a text editor, make the following changes to these files:
extra_fast.inst.cfg:
layer_height = 0.28
fast.inst.cfg:
layer_height = 0.16
high.inst.cfg:
layer_height = 0.08
normal.inst.cfg:
//you need to add new string into the [values] section:
layer_height = 0.12
4. Save the changes.
5. Open the Cura 3.6.0.
6. Profit!
Great tip. Thanks.
Спасибо, Артемий! Thank you, Artemij! 😊🍸 And of course, thank you CHEP.
Works like a charm!!!
I have to congratulate you on what is (in my opinion) probably the most informative UA-cam channel I have found.
I have a CR-10 by the way.
Magic numbers eh? Well I'm blowed! Makes perfect sense after you explained it in such clear detail.
I'm printing some prototype motorcycle parts in PLA, and just changed my layer height from 0.3mm (0.4mm nozzle) to 0.32mm layer height and the quality has doubled. No more strange lines. Excellent. Changed all my other little settings to 0.04mm multiples and for sure there's major improvements.
Also, I followed your tutorial on the adaptive layers. Oh man, why haven't I used this before? I just printed a small shaft that has an M5 external thread either side of a larger diameter, barrel shaped body. Previously I would have printed the whole thing at say a 0.1mm layer height to make sure I get a useable thread, and it would have taken forever. Now with adaptive layers, and of course the "Magic Numbers" it's printed out like a dream. Layer height is 0.08mm on the external threads and 0.32mm on the barrel section. And with no post processing, it screws into the little thumbwheel I printed out previous to that. Perfecto!!!
Glad I could help. Thanks for watching.
Thanks from Germany, this Video show me an interesting detail. Good to know. Thanks a lot.
Thank you for you investment in the printing community ! Your videos are so helpful and I like your more technical approach to the field
Someone has been listening to you! The CreawsomeMod on Cura 4.1 implements 0.12mm, 0.16mm, 0.20mm, and 0.28mm layers .. all mutliples of 0.04.
The Maker's muse has a dirty trick for super fast drafts using 0.3mm layers and some other tricks... 0.32 is an awfully coarse extension of the magic number. It will probably look like hell, but maybe I'll try a small print to see what happens.
This makes so much sense once you explained the reasonings. I think creality should add this to all their printers instructions and send you a gift.
This is all very helpful but can you please tell us the magic number for this week's lotto?
Thanks for the video. I just got a Creality 6SE. I've got a LOT of learning to do. Once I get past the learning curve, I plan to custom print a cab for my RC Tamiya truck!
Cura 5 has these natural step sizes in the profile settings now.
I've had my ender 3pro for almost 2 years and never knew that, I can already see a difference in what I'm slicing now. holy crap.
One should avoid magic numbers and always declare them into a variable. Coding 101
:D
As someone who prints alot this is cool. I wish I knew this earlier. Thanks a million.
I was trying really hard to understand the math behind that, but this video does not explain the relation between Marlin settings and microsteps. This video is definitely correct in conclusion, but:
- Z axis on Ender 3 and Ender 5 (first version with T8x8) uses in Marlin 400 steps/mm
- Ender 3 and Ender 5 on stock boards uses 16 microsteps
- Now, the actual amount of real steps per mm is `400 / 16 = 25`
- They use 1.8o stepper motors, which translates to 200 real steps, so the full revolution translates to `200 / 25 = 8 mm`
- The actual accuracy is `1mm / 25 = 0.04 mm`, this is the layer high that can be achieved without using microsteps
- This means that on Ender 3 the best achievable layer high on 0.4 nozzle is 0.12, as 0.08 is too small
Additionally, there's Ender 5 with T8x4 which uses more tight screw with 800 steps/mm:
- The `800 / 16 = 50 real steps / mm`, `200 / 50 = 4 mm` per revolution
- `1mm / 50 = 0.02 mm accuracy`
- This means that on Ender 5 with T8x4 the best achievable layer high on 0.4 nozzle is 0.1 mm
- You can increase accuracy on Ender 3 by replacing lead screw to TRx8 and achieve the same as for a newer Ender 5
I am a total newbie on this 3D printing stuff, but this is the third video of yours I watch and this is right on the money!
Thanks Chep!
Your videos are probably the most well explained information I can find on UA-cam.
Amazing work, I know this one is 3 years old, but please keep up the great work!
Why the hell is your channel not the most popular one on 3D printing info?
Thanks. I appreciate that!
honestly probably because info segments are more basic and lower production value than others like tom s and makers muse.
Doesnt stop me thinking this is a super useful channel though, and i keep coming back
This is a great explanation and advice, THANK YOU!
Your videos are highly appreciated in the ENDER 3 world, you are doing a great job!
How do you make sure you start at a normal positio, not a microstep position? Does starting z also need ti be multiple of 4?
I'm starting with 3D Printing with an Ender 3 Pro and this informations has proven to be very valuable! Thanks a lot for sharing this!
I just read the comments. You, Sir, have the patience of a saint. Hmmm Saint Chep, patron saint of 3d printing?
Excited, just put my first printer together tonight. Chose the Ender 3 and I'm down for quality and savings! Appreciate your channel, happy I discovered it. Cheers!
Thanks for watching.
Chuck awesome info, Thanks will try this out !
Thank you Chuck! Very good information for a new Ender user like myself. Going to be sticking to these numbers from now on.
Are these magic numbers now incorporated on cura now?
I'm looking at the default profiles and I have 0.12, 0.16, 0.2 and 0.28 layer heights.
Yes. They incorporated them in when they included Creawsome.
That's fantastic.
These videos are awesome btw, ime systematically going through almost everything to learn as much as I can about 3d printing and your information is very clear and to the point which I appreciate.
Thank you for showing these Magic Numbers Chuck, when I first got my first 3D printer, I asked the awesome team at gCreate how does the layer height work with this printer and that is exactly the numbers I was given and i get amazing prints. This should be shared everywhere, super valuable information. 😎👍
Is "magic number" be useful, if i use "mesh bed leveling" and Z axis make a small rotations during model print?
Has nothing to do with bed level.
Thank you! I had known of magic numbers, but thought them dubious because I'm my experience I didn't experiment enough to see improvements, you have proven your work with this video and I will give it another shot, thank you!
The seven minutes time saved using the "magic number" didn't really have anything to do with the magic number itself. You simply printed fewer layers (0.12 vs 0.1 layer height gives fewer layers for the same model), and that's the only reason you saved time.
I know that you know this, but it would perhaps be a good idea to mention it, as some people might believe that the printer prints faster when using a magic number multiple for layer height. Which it does not.
Most people understand. No need to explain that.
But he did say that that's exactly what he said no quality difference but you save 7 minutes
He explicitly noted that on close examination there is a difference but not really under naked eye examination so you might as well use the slightly larger their height to save some time and technically improve your print quality
The point is that he made it sound like if you used the magic number there would be a time gain. Which isn't necessarily true, unless you always round up the layer height to the nearest multiple of the magic number. If you round down instead, then your print will take longer. Even if you used the magic number.
I clearly stated if you use 0.8 instead of 0.6, 0.12 instead of 0.1, 0.16 instead of 0.15, you will see the same or better quality at a quicker print time.
@@mroek I think most people who would find this video would also intuitively understand that if they rounded down to 0.08mm instead of up to 0.12mm that their print time would be longer than at 0.10mm layer height. Chuck didn't explicitly state this, but he did explicitly state that moving UP in layer height provides the same or better quality with faster print times.
Good stuff! I'll be using this info in my next print on my Ender 5.
On the video, you only change the layer height from 0.1 to 0.12 mm. Why did not you change the initial layer height to 0.24 mm and also the top and bottom layer heights to 0.12 mm multiple ? (In that case you had for bottom and top 6.0 mm layer height. 0.12 x 5 = 6.0 mm, so it works.)
0.2 still a multiple of 0.04, no need to change it. Also no need to set top/bottom to a multiple, cura rounds it up
THANK YOU CHEP!!
I just got my Ender 3 pro and this already made my prints look a little better. I thought they were decent before but this makes the layers more consistent and even.
Changing my Cura Adaptive Layer to 0.20 layer, max 0.12 deviation, and 0.04 steps. That should get me layers from 0.08 to 0.32, all multiples of 0.4 and max 80% of nozzle. Was using 0.25, 0.15, 0.05.
Yes, good idea. I would expect you’ll see slightly higher print times but better quality. Especially with your original settings allowing up to 0.4 layer height which is larger than the 80%. I will experiment with this as well.
@@FilamentFriday I noticed occasionally under extrusion at 0.4 so lowering the max was already on the list, but first I wanted to flash marlin 1.1.9, which I did yesterday, now printing the all in one micro print test with the new settings and marlin 1.1.9, its halfway and looks promising, speed at 90/60 mm/s
Uber helpful, I appreciate what you do for the community thank you.
I wouldn't call this magic. Prusa has had a calculator for this on his website for ages. But always good to bring it up again.
"magic number" is an expression widely used - it pretty much means a special number valid for a special use case.
Michael P www.prusaprinters.org/calculator/ second last one. The pitch they have for M8 isn't the typical one anymore which is 8mm.
My friend thank you so very much I have dialed in my CR-10 and she is running much smoother, it's funny how you take the presets for granted. I will be linking this for people a lot in the future Cheers!
I put the .12 in my ender 3 and it added like 4hours to the print
What was your layer height before? That could be an expected result.
You were probably printing at .4 before.
Dude, this was so excellent for me, having just bought a four year old CR-10 and wanting higher layer resolution. Thanks so much!
spoiler 0.8 0.12 0.16 0.2 0.24 0.28 0.32 but watch the video because have a lot of usefull information
Correction: 0.08, since 0.8 is twice the width of the nozzle hole!
@@curiositycreativity6288 Yap sorry
Thanks Chuck - great to find someone with your experience saying this! I found it out the hard way on my resin printer, where the effects were very noticeable due to what turned out to be using 0.035mm layer heights when a natural single-step layer being 0.040mm. Took me a while to figure out, and many people insisted I was mistaken - yet the print results speak for themselves so I've been quietly continuing with layer heights that are multiples of 0.040mm regardless :)
set video speed to 2x just like my print speed
Hi, new to 3d printing and your channel. Gotta say I'm finding out all kinds of information. Great job its already helped me a lot, new subscriber!
Don't mind me, it is just a comment for the algorithm.
This makes so much sense and the proof is visible in the microscope pictures! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
I doubt this has any recreatable effects on prints. For this effect to work you have to assume your home position is EXACTLY on a natural step of the motor. Fairly unscientific and not rigorous at all. I would need more evidence to support this claim.
Justin Moritz - It doesn’t have to start at a natural step. I explain in the comment above yours. And loads of people have used them and see great results.
Justin Moritz the supposed answer to this is moving from one micro step to the “same” micro step is more consistent than moving to different micro steps. I don’t believe this for a second, and considering all the other variables that can effect a print layer I’d be very surprised if any inconsistency in micro steps was affecting print quality on one of these machines.
If the magic number was really a thing you would expect to see any flaws caused by the micro steps repeated with mathematical consistency through the entirety of the print. Most people claiming magic numbers solved their problems don’t have problems that would be consistent with this issue.
And I’m baffled as to why this would supposedly make a print run faster.
Amazing mathematical exploration.👍 You got a subscriber.
I dunno, seems your cherry picking your results when your looking under a microscope because under your 0.12 layer you can clearly see bigger blobs at the bottom but you chose to ignore them and point to smaller ones
Seems like your cherry picking a video to make a point. I’ve had 1000’s of people actually use these numbers in the slicer and report the same results as mine. Much smoother prints. Ive since shared my profiles with them and have seen moe people state they are getting better prints. So I stand by what I showed and stated.
The bottom of that print was another issue I covered in later videos.
@@FilamentFriday yeah I don't think we're on the same page on what cherry picking means. I could only be cherry picking if there were many videos and I picked the 1 that showed fault. But then for me to be cherry picking in this sense you would have to be acknowledging there is a fault for me to pick at...
Then you clearly don’t get it. The area I showed on all the prints showed the improvement caused by the Magic Numbers so I clearly understand.
Hi there , I just wanted to say thank you. I am new to printing and have been having pretty good success thanks to your videos. love what you are doing. keep up the great work. love my ender 3 so far.
Thanks for watching
Excellent video! I was recommended this video by a thread on Reddit and I gotta say, I love your detailed explanation of how this works. I'm amazed I never thought about this considering I have a fair understanding of stepper motors. The things you don't know, that you don't know! Thanks for enlightening me/us on this topic! Prints are coming out much smoother using the step increment (0.04mm) for my Ender 3! Keep up the great work!
My first Chep video, and I'm very impressed and pleased. You got a new subscriber. This was a very enlightening video. Informative and easy to understand. Thank you very much.
Thanks
For anyone struggling to get the mm per revolution, remember that the rods generally have 4 threads running along them. You should measure the distance between threads, and then multiply it by the number of threads running along the rod. For example 2mm pitch in a rod with 4 threads, is 8mm per revolution that is mentioned here.
estcap2 this is an important point, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that’s typical. Mine just uses regular single start threaded rod. I have a 3018 CNC with quadruple start leadscrews, and some spare dual-start leadscrews. You pay attention to “pitch” for single start threads, and “lead” for multiple start leadscrews 👍
It’s amazing him many people don’t believe this! Great Video Chuck!
Thank you for some very insightful information. I applaud your patience with some of the comments below.
I am new to this art and science, and just printed an extruder knob at .12 a huge difference. This is the first time since the Dog test \ example print, that I am getting smooth glossy layers! Thank you!
Glad I could help.
Using Cura with variable layer height (3.4.1 in experimental) and I'm quite happy with it regarding both speed and quality.
Set it now to initial layer height 0.28, default 0.2 with maximum variation 0.08 and interval 0.04...
... just great!
I tried it and got very spattered surface on two separate prints. I’ll play with the settings some more.
No wonder my 0.2 settings prints the most consistent and nice result
Fantastic Chuck. So simple ( after your explanation ) but so obvious now that you have. Cheers, JAYTEE
you totally makes 3d print something really easier thanks alot for the knowladge that you share
Thanks for watching
Love your videos Chep! educational, short and to the point, and it really helps people like me who are just getting into 3D printing as a hobby. 2 thumbs up from me! Look forward to watching your other videos!
CHEP. Again you have made my Ender 3 print magic! I was totally suprised.
Watched this again. Now that I've had a little more printing experience, I will give the magic number a try. Thanks.
Brilliant info, and thank you for the series. You're clear, concise and your audio is great! Always a pleasure to find another of your videos.
I have a project right now with a very complicated stl and for some unknown reason whenever I use your numbers, an unwanted flat solid layer appears in the Cura slice. I'm sure it's my lack of modelling skills but here are my results:
0.16 made a line at 1454 and takes 4d 20:49 587g 178.86m
(it's a lifesize head ;-)
0.20 made a line at 1075 and takes 3d 21:41 621g 187.02m
0.21 got rid of unwanted lines and takes 3d 14:56 601g 180.93m
0.24 made a line at 869 and takes 3d 08:05 643g 193.65m
I'd like to follow your numbers to help with the post finishing but can't see how I can.
Either way, much appreciated tip!
~ Future Patron?
Sounds like something in the model. Try putting it thru an stl repair service. You can google to find one.
Really loving your content. Very helpful stuff. Keep up the great work and thanks
This is by far the most interesting video I've seen so far !!! I'll try it out when my 48h print is over ;)
Thanks for the explanations, your "english" is extremly easy to understand even for a french guy like me. You rock ;)
Thank you.
Having a CNC router, this is great and accurate application for my Ender 3
Thank you!
For all with an Ender 5 (pro) with a lead screw with a pitch of 4 mm. The magic number should now be in 0.02 mm increments. I'm not sure if the magic numbers will work if you use a BLTouch. Since the first layer gets fine tuned to the actual bed level and this hight hasn't to be a magic number. The hight can even change due to the x-y position.
As someone who is pretty new to this, but trying to learn everything, I just wanted to thank you for your videos! I personally have an Ender 3 that I got for Christmas, and I have been playing with different settings in Cura to try and get more consistent prints. Your explanation for "natural steps" was really well done, and it answers a question I had about layer height, and what would make the most sense! I noticed in Cura that the resolutions they offer by default didn't really seem to have a consistent interval to them, and this helps me understand what I need to be doing instead. I don't usually comment on videos, but I just wanted to say thank you! I definitely subscribed, and look forward to seeing more super helpful content from you!
...I am now going to go binge watch all of your videos and start testing things on my Ender 3 that you suggest! Thank you so much!
Thanks for watching and the sub.
Pretty dang cool. Thanks for sharing this
You’re welcome
changing it from .1 to .12 turned a 9 hour print into a 7 and a half hour print that's insane!
And I bet the quality is the same or slightly better. That is the benefit of the Magic Numbers.
Thanks Chep, excellent video. Though I got a little confused but the community comments help explained further. Thanks to all as well.
Your diagram is for a five wire stepper, 3D printers normally use four wire steppers. That’s the two opposite coils in series or parallel (in appropriate orientation) and no connection to a common point. There’s also six (your diagram but each set of two is separate) and eight wire (each coil coming out separately) arrangements.
On four wire steppers, you have coil pair A and coil pair B. First you energize A in one direction, then B, then A in the other direction, etc. The five wire model is easier because you only have to switch four + in sequence (well, more usually you’d have the power + in the center and pull the four wires down in sequence), and in the four wire model you have to put - on one side and + on the other, and then reverse that. Hence why we need specialized chips to do it instead of a few transistors.
This of course in no way detracts from your “try to match layer heights to full steps” point.
It was just to simplify the explanation. They still have natural steps and uneven microstep angles so the magic numbers average those out.
I just did a brief search but I think this is the same on the Anycubic i3 Mega.
Looking forward to testing this out. Thanks
Later versions of Cura nowadays has the proper printer profiles with those "magic numbers". No need to manually create profiles any more for this reason alone. With version 4.6 I just told it to use the included Ender 3 printer profile, and it had all the settings dialed in for the printer in question.
Yes, those settings came after my videos.
Makes sense, hard to guarantee that the first layer won't start at a microstep height though? resulting in all subsequent layers being off the "natural" step positions. However, your results don't lie. Will have to switch it up to 0.28 or 0.32 when I'm after those fast big prints. Cheers mate.
It may start at a microstep but read my pinned comment above yours where I clarify.
Thanks for this Chuck.. Always used these values on my A8 for the last 3 years and was a little surprised to see the Cura defaults for my new E3.. Hadn't got around to checking it yet, so many thanks :)
Awesome Chuck. I just got me an ender 3 and your videos a very helpful to me. Greetings from Belgium!
Welcome
This is a brilliant observation, though I would prefer to refer to the magic number as the Z-step ratio or something of the like. Can't wait to test this out!
In Cura, I usually use adaptive layers to smooth out curved surfaces or shorten taller print times with little variation on the z-axis. I noticed that I can set the 'Adaptive layers maximum variation' and 'Adaptive layers variation step size' to multiples of 0.04.
Magic Number sounds like more fun ;)
Very interesting Chuck. I'm going to try this out on my Ender 3. Thanks for sharing.
Good video and tip. I came to this from another way to get my optimum z height. For me it was fighting with first layer height and a feeler gauge. Kept getting slightly different measurements when I told the z to go to .2mm. Finally I looked up the specs for the motor and did the math.
this is such a massive help, thank you!
Thx for this info my prints are now crisp and sharp. 👍
Very good! I really need to check ALL your old vídeos!