Battlestar Galactica 4x15 Reaction | No Exit
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- #bsg #battlestargalactica #cylons
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29:17 Review and Commentary
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"If I could age like Kate Vernon", says the gal who in her 40s regularly gets comments from people shocked she's not in her 20s.
☺️
@@funnylilgalreacts, If you're actually in your 40's, at most, you're but a few years younger than Vernon was at this point in her life. And yes, you are quite youthful looking!!!
Wait what? I just turned 42 and I thought @funnylilgal was like 15 years younger than me.
wait, she is 40??
And now we come to know "The Final Five" were actually "The Initial Five."
The Final Five survivors of Earth.
@@mascan7905 and final five revealed, as Baltar was the one who named them that.
Not quite. The initial Cylons were from Kobal and settled on their Earth. They are literally the final five Cylons from their Earth.
Some people don't understand the implication Cylons were on Kobal too. That Cylons on Earth developed their own 'robots' before the 12 colonies developed them. And both of them were destroyed by their creations.
@@cliveklg7739 The five were the first of the twelve, but yeah, all this has happened before...
@@Educated2Extinction the five are the only ones left fron earth, it had millions of them back at that time
I love how Adama, when telling Chief to go ahead, called Galatica *our* girl. Acknowledging that Chief cared as much for the ship as Adama did
Aren't ships and aircraft always given female names?
I think he was talking about the "our" in that sentence. Acknowledging that Galen also loves this ship very much. BTW if I'm not mistaken Russians don't personate their vessels like that, not sure but I think I've read that somewhere.
@@riffgroove at first he says "fix my ship" but after seeing how damaged she is he says "our girl" acknowledging that the ship is also chief's as well regardless of him being a cylon
The scene at 10:55 where Ellen asks the Centurion to help her up and how it retracts its claws to do so shows something really important. Its a reminder that, although they are built to be the muscle and the foot soldiers, the Centurions are not just soulless killing machines inside. They, like the humanoid Cylon models, are distinct individuals capable of being much more if given the chance to evolve.
"He loves Galactica."
Now go back to Season 2 where Adama was talking to Tyrol about Boomer.
"She was more than that to us. She was more than that to me. She was a vital, living person aboard my ship for almost 2 years. She couldn't have been just a machine. Could you love a machine?"
I've been waiting for you to watch this one since Ellen first showed up in season 1 lol
yup, every time she was like "i hate ellen so much" i was thinking she hadn't even met ellen yet
Kobol was the planet that originated the 12 tribes of humanity, which settled on the 12 colonies. It was also the place where the 13th tribe originated, a tribe of Cylons that settled on Earth. The 13 tribes abandoned Kobol after a major conflict.
The 12 colonies developed their own Cylons centuries later and repeated the cycle of violence. The 13th tribe of Earth, being more technologically advanced, developed their own robotic Cylons several centuries before the colonies. The 13th tribe also fell to the cycle of violence. The survivors of Earth tried to reach out to the other 12 tribes and stop the cycle of violence.
Kobol was like 99% Cylon. The fact that this war is so ancient and convoluted that Cylons wiped a planet of Cylons without even knowing should be grounds for a galactic cease fire
Ellen was like Jessica Rabbit. She wasn't bad. She was just "drawn" that way. Ellen's toxicity was hand crafted by Cavil as a punishment.
No. Absolutely not. That's Ellen. She has always been that way. Next episode, she shows her true colors again.
He flanderized her, basically. Took her basic impulses and amplified them, like her predilection towards alcohol and her pettiness.
@@l33tspaniardThis is my belief as well. She always had those traits, but Cavill dialed up her bad habits and dialed back her good ones.
Same with Saul. It was his way of having vengeance against his parents by dialing their darker impulses to 11. That's why post-revelation Saul has been so paternal, calm, and balanced.
@@abonny For some reason on first watch I never really thought too much about Ellen's personality switch.* Now that I'm here again...yeah they really left that very unclear in this episode right? She seems like a completely different, wise woman. We know Cavil could erase their memories, but could he just write a new personality? That seems like a different kind of thing. So maybe if you take a wise woman and take away her life experience, you get toxic Ellen?
*I think I was a little sick of some of the more asspull storylines at this point. The overall backstory of the final five ended up pretty solid though.
50 years is the typical life of an American nuclear powered aircraft carrier today, so the Galactica is about right !
Remember, those Cavill scenes were "12 months ago" so it still could be him that got killed
Daniel the 7 was a writing correction by Ronald D. Moore. He established in the mini-series there were 12 human models. Then in season 2, he established that Boomer was an 8. Then when he was developing the Final Five, he realized the math wasn't going to work (8 models plus final 5 equals 13). So he wrote in an unseen, decommissioned model, the 7s.
Just one more instance of the proud tradition of sci-fi writers not being able to do math.
@@klemminguk Bc engineers and scientists trade simple math for funky letters and complex functions.
It's not math, it's asthetics. The math works out fine. There are only seven models plus the Final Five. That's twelve. It's just a problem of wanting the Five to numbered sequentially.
@@rayhume1971 The Five don't have numbers.
And also, what?
Numerical sequences are still math (not addition, but still math). And what does aesthetics have to do with it?
Some of the fan theories about Daniel were incredibly good and would have been completely possible with no changes to the script at all but Ron shattered our hopes by saying there was nothing to Daniel other than fixing a writing error. The speculation about who Daniel was became one of the best parts of watching the final season.
This is one of my favourite episodes ever, an it's mostly because of Ellen.That opening, her waking up in the tub, the initial panic, horror, disbelief in her screams as she realizes where she is and what it means, then the switch when she accepts and processes the information and becomes Cylon!Ellen, how polite she is to the centurions, the masterpiece of a conversation between her and Cavill (his monologue about the Supernova lives rent free in my head to this day), how much it riles him up that she is unfailingly calm and gentle and motherly to him ... Ellen really is a fantastic character, with so many layers to discover as we learn more about her and rewatching this show KNOWING who she is makes me enjoy her absolutely chaotic persona in the beginning that much more, and Kate Vernon delivered a spectacular performance with this character. A real show stopper.
Ellen and Kate Vernon are very excellent here. I'll be honest I did not like her character at all before, because she was written as sort of an irredeemable weight around Saul's neck, just a very frustrating person every time she was around and the show didn't seem interested in exploring what exactly was underneath that. Here it finally does, and provides a ton of clarity about everything else in the process. (TBH I don't know why some fans are like "raahh watch _The Plan"_ - this episode covers what you need just fine!) And Dean Stockwell is equally fantastic here. And it's a nice change of pace from not seeing his side anymore for half the season.
My assumption with Cavil is he probably shares his memories with his other models, as privacy isn't a concern for him and information is important, so the Cavils are basically all the same.
The show definitely blurs the line between individual Cylons and Cylons unified as models when it suits them. I've given up trying to work it out, although sometimes it's tempting especially when FLG starts going off about the things Leoben has done :)
The THIRTEEN Cylon models are:
The original 5 Cylons who we know as "The Final Five" are:
Anders
Tory
Ellen
Saul
Tyrol.
They were "born" on Earth. Only one of each can exist at any given time.
They created, in total, 8 models:
1 - Cavil
2 - Leoben
3 - D'Anna
4 - Simon
5 - Doral
6 - Various Names
7 - Daniel (Discontinued)
8 - Sharon
Unlike the "Final Five", multiple units of the same model can exist at the same time.
Adama isn't taking medication, he's abusing pills (as well as alcohol). Edward James Olmos gradually ramped up substance abuse in Adama's "quarters scenes" as he felt the constant pressure would drive Adama to addiction, and the writers went with it (writing in his messy breakdowns, for instance). Although they still didn't envision how far he would take them.
It is bookending the character development in a way. The start of the series Tigh is struggling with substance abuse to keep going and Adama was the one who was keeping it straight. As things have changed and characters have evolved, it is Adama who is now struggling with substance abuse and Tigh keeping it straight.
We first seen the pills after his stitch up in season 2 and I always wondered if poor Cottle thought he was genuinely helping him by signing off on more.
@@kaykutcher2103 In fairness, Adama has the most stressful job in the Fleet. He is literally protecting the fleet, managing his crew, deal with Cylon infiltrators. He had to deal with all of that with an under strength battlestar. He has to deal with the civilian government which at times is like banging his head on a bulkhead. He was shot and nearly killed by someone he trusted. Earth was a fizzer. He had to deal with a mutiny which has put further strain on Galactica's combat capabilities and remaining crew. Galactica and Roslin are dying. For Adama that is all just simply too much. To be honest, he probably has not had any shore leave since this has all started.
The pills and alcohol are just simply his coping mechanisms. At least he is doing it in private, not like a few other character's where it is out in the public eye (Starbuck fighting, Kat's stim addiction, Tigh when he would be drunk in front of the crew just for a few examples).
"These ridiculous gelatinous orbs." Now we see the full scope of Cavil's insatiable brutality, manifest in Tigh's enucleation and Ellen's Oedipal degradation. Genocide is obscene, but these were acts that were savagely personal.
In the end the whole series motor was a galactic size child outburst of someone utterly frustrated on how he was created
He’s angry at his creators. Pretty human of him I’d say lol.
Also he’s not wrong. Human sensory is weak compared to other existing animals. When I was a kid and I leaned about the distance eagles can see I was like man we got shafted on that one…
@@robertsanssouci2093 We should run like cheetahs, be strong as gorillas, see like eagles, swim like dolphins, fly like falcons, and have echolocation like bats and dolphins.
@@Educated2Extinction There’s a handful of humans who’ve lost their vision and taught themselves echolocation. It blows my mind
@kevinpinder7025, Yet, I don't see Cavil as a clear-cut villain in the piece. While I can't say it was exactly RDM's design, it seems that every character, human and Cylon, is aspiring to be something more, or better, or simply different. That even applies to Zarek, and yes, Cavil. I'm not suggesting the audience is necessarily meant to feel sympathetic towards him, but what he expressed about his nature and his perception of it, is something I find a resonance in throughout the series.
It's moving, in a way (at least to me), even acknowledging how that sense is amplified by Stockwell's fantastic performance. Obviously, Cavil responded to the inherent unfairness which defined his existence, in uniformly, the most extreme (and destructive) way possible. Yet, as we saw here (and in a brief and tantalizing way in the finale, IMO), the character has depth, nuance, and makes one think.
Ellen’s shock and horror slowly turning into remembrance and comprehension is a great scene. Same with Cavil’s rant about how much he hates what he is.
Do whatever you have to do you save our girl.
Such a great episode. Now you TRULY know who and what Cavill is. He’s a monster, sure. But at his core, he’s still a broken boy. Dean Stockwell and Kate Vernon were incredible playing off each other in this one!
The age old story of the rebellious son
I can't wait till she sees The Plan and hopefully remembers what Ellen said about how Cavil could be whatever he wanted. That's when you see the true tragedy that is John Cavil.
27:06 A tumbrel is a two-wheeled cart or wagon typically designed to be hauled by a single horse or ox. Their original use was for agricultural work; in particular they were associated with carrying manure. Their most infamous use was taking prisoners to the guillotine during the French Revolution. They were also used by the military for hauling supplies.
You beat me to it.
… or “BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!”
@@scottmcclellan4269 Indeed :)
@@scottmcclellan4269 Exactly what I pictured.
I was suprised how long Galactica lasted given the fact shes been through a lot since the miniseries. Tigh even hinted at her condition during "Sacrifice". "It would take weeks just to hammer out her dents." In the some rare shots of the damage control station in season 3, she had red lines all across her top side. The CGI shots of the ship in season 3 showed her hull battle scared, and after "Sacrifice" very charred. In early season 4, we even see one of her main guns missing and a gaping hole on her top side. Its so unique to see this in a sci fi show where it usually shows the ship in this condition.
It was the kind of show Ronald D Moore wanted Voyager to be. He wanted Voyager to have wear and tear, battle damage and over time the ship just feeling and showing the scars of the journey. Instead they were forced to go down the 'factor reset' route. Understandably this was frustrating for RDM.
, Indeed, though I don't think the showrunners were essentially to blame for that. My understanding is that the suits at UPN consistently rejected storylines and conditions which were deemed to be too problematic. Hence, no continuation of Maquis-Federation conflict, no year long arc of Year From Hell, and more overarchingly, no real depredations played out on the ship and crew, at least which wasn't reset by the end of the episode.
I can appreciate the network higher-ups' unease, as Voyager was their flagship production, coming out of the gate, but it certainly diminished the chances the show ultimately had to break out of a safe and well trodden ST template, unlike what DS9 was able to do.
A tumbrel is the kind of open air Jail-cart they used to take condemned prisoners to the guillotine. It’s notable because the crowd can throw things into it and abuse the prisoner on the way because it has no roof.
My father had a stroke during a common surgey. The neurologist gave the news to our family with the same "grace" that the lady showed in this show (sorry i dont know her name). Only our neurologist also b*itched about ending her golf game early to come tell is "he's dead as a doornail" it still hurts my heart to remember it. Sorry for sharing so much, i didn't realize how much that triggered me.
Seriously? I know specialists often have crummy bedside manner but that was hurtful and should be actionable. What a horrible doctor!
I am so sorry that happened to you. That is so unfair. You definitely deserved more grace in that moment.
Hahahaha. Yes, men are different indeed. Particularly, military men.
When I was in the Navy, after we passed a major inspection that was a source of great contention, a Master Chief said to me, "Good Job."
That was his apology.
When Admiral Adama said "Fix my ship Chief," that was his apology.
I think the apology was when he said “I need a Chief.”
@@gawainethefirst Indeed. That's more on target.
I think saying "I need a Chief" was the first half of his apology and the restoration (with an associated command to maintain his firm position) was the second half. At least, if that happened in real-life. The show-runners, writers, and actors are certainly sophisticated enough to generate this level of conversation amongst total strangers. How awesome is that?
adama's full apology was when he said "our girl"
@@DevDog98 WINNER!!!!
👏 for your book joke. 😁
This is also my favourite version of Ellen. Kate Vernon is so outstanding at playing off-putting Ellen but, for me, this episode is where she really shines. I love that she continues to call Cavill “John” despite his objections. I love her calm, rational responses when he’s trying to provoke her.
And she looks out-damn-standing in that dress. I too want to be Kate Vernon when I grow up. 😍
Edit: Ellen/Cavill, Saul/6, and Tyrol/Boomer means at least 3 of the Final 5 had relations with their “children”. 🤢
"he’s trying to provoke her."
He is, yes. But frankly he strikes me as wholly unable to do anything but provoke.
@@simonfrederiksen104 Ellen is much clever than Cavil.. thats why he did to them what he did long ago
Saul + Six was still weird and unnecessary even before it was incest :P
@@jerodast, I've no idea, but might it have been conceived (sorry about that) as a means of deflecting so much attention being focused on Hera alone, as the key to the future?
I seem to have misplaced the keys to the time machine. Can somebody else take a quick trip back to season 1 and inform her that Saul and Ellen are her favorite characters?
Woah woah woah… let’s not get crazy 🤪
@@funnylilgalreacts Sorry: It's already happened. 😛😜
@@funnylilgalreacts ...OR (via "in series quotationals"):
"This has all happened before.
And it will happen again."
😉😉😛
From the First Hybrid's Prophecy in BSG Razor:
"And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering."
Ellen's resurrection and escape from Cavil.
The handful of words between Adama and Galen said all those things without saying them. Men are different!
Thanks for the mansplaining cuz we are as always too stupid to know anything about anything
@@samanthacole9562 well obviously you just used the word mansplain 😂 it’s EXplaining.
@@samanthacole9562 Nice try. I wasn't mansplaining anything. I was agreeing with her and supporting her point.
@@samanthacole9562always one women who gets offended over the stupid thing…
@@samanthacole9562you just literally proved the point of men being different. Yes, we can let things go just like that.
For a 50 year old ship that has endured the amount of punishment Galactica has. Only discovering now that the shipyard cut corners in her design. Imagine how strong a Battlestar built to its design specs would have been.
Literally meters thick layers of armor able to just facetank nukes and keep on going. Imagine the frame of a vessel like that to be able to support all that weight ( I know there is no weight in space but inertia still exists plus Adama did jumped her into the high atmo) and take so much punishment like she did.
Well to be fair when they build her they had to hurry up and get the Battlestars in action since there there was a war going on. The fact that they built this ship so well its endured for decades and was able to survive everything since the Fall of the Colonies says a lot about how well the Old Bucket was built.
Cavills spech: Hair rising. No machine ever felt anything so deeply. That explains everything.
Before the end of the series, one episode is dedicated to exploring who Daniel is. Note he is referred to as an artist.
"What's a tumbril?" Don't feel bad. We all had to look it up.
I love how you catch every little detail of this show. It's like getting to watch again through your eyes. Like even something as subtle as the cracks, and knowing that it has a huge significance.
I am lamenting the end of this reaction chain, it has been my favorite reaction since I came home from the hospital 4 years ago. Thank you for helping entertain me while I try to recover.
When a car gets too damaged in its very framework, its time for the scrapper. After that, its like claiming you still have the same broom, despite changing out the head and the handle a few times.
Had a cyst in my brain many years ago. Spent a couple years with massive headaches and behaviour issues. Only got surgery after being discharged from ER for like the 3rd time and collapsing on my face as I was leaving. Woke up on a gurney to be told "We found a tumor in your brain". Hell of a way to wake up
Often big reveals don't live up to the hype but this one does. It isn't over the top it makes sense. Even though you don't want Cavil to be that way, getting revenge on someone who did you wrong is the history of humanity.
Cavil is the perfect example of why giving immortality to humans (yes, the cylons are as emotionally human as we are) is so dangerous. To be able to act without consequences is a recipe for disaster, and humanity should have to significantly evolve before immortality is allowed or even considered.
2:14 They didn't have time to more fully flesh out characters like Gaeda, etc., because they had to feature boxing matches and things like Apollo's venture into the world of pimps and hookers and Starbuck's wonderful latrine ship adventures. 😂
I don't think the old man is taking medication for any actual condition. At least not as prescribed. You notice he's washing those pills down with hard liquor. There's no scenario in which that's a proper way of taking any medication.
My assumption here is he's at the end of his rope, and is self medicating. He's probably abusing those pills, whatever they are - likely some painkillers.
"Why all human"
Because while there's a handful of Cylons that Adama "trusts", the truce with the Cylons (as a group) is fragile. And learning that the Human's main military asset is on its last legs.... might cause Cylon plans to change.
I have to agree, even in this dark moment of learning the ship is cracking up, Adama still feels a need to respect what Gaeta fought for. Gaeta was never a bad guy, he was fighting to protect the fleet from just 'casually allowing the cylons free access to the fleet'.
@@paxzin8501, You're dead-on in your perspective about Gaeta, I believe. It's unfortunate, if naturally to be expected, that more folks don't seem to be able to render as much rational thought about the character.
A tumbrel - an open cart that tilted backward to empty out its load, in particular one used to convey condemned prisoners to the guillotine during the French Revolution.
I think we’re meant to assume Cavil resurrected before they blew up the Hub (there was just enough time for it to happen, while they were getting her out of there).
And yeah his line about having “seen it all before” is meant to confirm that he was the one frakking Ellen on New Caprica. One of my favourite episodes of the series. Can’t wait to hear you break down the finale.
As far as the story-
1. They made Cylons on Kobol which evolved into the 13th Tribe that went to Earth. The story of them and their destination made it into the mythology of the 12 Colonies and obviously became distorted in that process.
2. The Earth Colony of Cylons eventually started procreating like humans, but also developed their own Centurion Cylons, which rebelled like they had originally done on Kobol, leading to the Earth Apocalypse. The Final Five, led by Ellen, rediscovered resurrection tech and set themselves up to be reborn.
3. The final five travelled to find the other 12 Colonies, but discovered that the humans had started repeating the cycle themselves, and so gave the Colonial centurions (remember them experimenting with Hybrids in “Razor”) the resurrection tech in exchange for ending the war.
4. The Final Five created the 8 skin job models on the Colony-John Cavil became jealous of Daniel, destroyed his line, and boxed his own creators. He manipulated and altered the memories of the remaining other skin job models, then had the final five resurrected without their real memories into the colonies so that when the Cylons returned to wipe humanity out, they’d experience the “mistake” of of humanity and resurrect having been humbled and loyal to Cavil’s philosophy.
5. The Final Five all miraculously survived and ended up eventually amongst the human fleet, leading to the events of the series.
There’s more than one unit in a model, and they all generally tend to share memories. So talking to one of the Cavils is the same as talking to all of them.
I think one of the most interesting story aspects of the above timeline, even though it wasn't explored in the series, is that everything that happened in your point #4 above occurred within the relatively brief span of ~40 years. Cavil is basically half of Adama's age.
The 8 models go from not even existing to destroying one of their own, boxing and disappearing their creators, and obliterating humanity in less than 4 decades. A lot less, depending on how long it took the five to create the 8 *plus* the fact that Adama has known Tigh for decades. So more like, what, 10 years? 20? The toasters rebelling against the humans has nothing on that kind of insanity.
Now, it's totally true that RDM basically made all this up as he went along and it'd be *really* difficult to write a sensible story that makes all of the above make sense, but I for one am sorry we never got to see him try. I think following the cylons from the arrival of the 5 through the end of the war, the creation of the 8, and the start of the series would have been pretty amazing.
@@jeffkoenig7402 agree, but I also think there’s something powerful about the fact that these events don’t follow exactly the same timeline, while still creating essentially the same story. That makes it mythological more than historical. 2,000 years? 20 years? 150,000 years? The important part is the dynamics between faith, hubris, greed and revenge.
I always assumed, after seeing this episode, that point 5 there was no coincidence. They could've easily tracked Tigh and Tyrol to Galactica, and Tori and Ellen were on ships too - maybe they sent them "you won a cruise!" fliers haha. The toughest one would be Sam, needing to not hit him with nukes on the ground.
Also curious how Tyrol did end up on the same ship as Tigh.
@@gawainethefirst yeah, the Cavill's in particular are probably big on doing regular memory downloads to prevent any messy human-like individuality from coming out.
You have no idea the emotions I felt seeing the Aircraft Carrier USS Kitty Hawk being scrapped after knowing its history…how it received 1,000s of Vietnamese refugees during the fall of Saigon when no one else could take the unending stream of helicopters from South Vietnam and pushing the emptied helicopters overboard to make room for more people….how the Kitty Hawk was there for every important airstrike during the war on terror….and after all that, when the ship was worn out, no city chose to buy it as a museum ship because the American military was hated at that time and the ship scrappers bought it from the navy for one penny and towed it away to rip it apart into razor blades after all that history….I reacted the same way you did about Galactica dying.
I love this episode! - we all kinda guessed Ellen was going to be a 'final 5' member way back, but the arriving to that point in this episode is really well done, they could've gone the route of Ellen's first appearance & had her turn up on Galactica with Boomer in the Raptor & just say ''I was resurrected & escaped'' - giving the wonderful Kate Vernon those scenes aboard the Cylon ship with Dean Stockwell was perfect, the dialog is just fantastic & it's like she's playing a completely different character in this episode!
Shoutout for the brilliant performance of Dean Stockwell, showing us how hateful, twisted & bitter Cavil is, but for my money this episode belongs to Kate! 😁❤
I gotta say at 10:46 - 10:53 that acting by Kate Vernon is frakking superb... no words, just... wow
In which Anders gets a bullet in his brain amd turns into an exposition machine.
I hate Cavil, but I LOVE his speech to Ellen when he starts talking about the Supernova, I memorized that shit, never forgot. Amazing writing.
Oh, by the way, fun fact. I watched the first two episodes of final season of Star Trek Discovery and did a double take when I spotted a Cylon in a Starfleet uniform. Callum Keith Rennie (Leoben) plays Captain Rayner of the USS Antares. Caught a glimpse of the guy at first and my brain went 'who is that?' Then he spoke and as soon as I heard his voice I was 'Oh, there's a Cylon on the show.'
not the first time there was a cylon on that show though - Rekha Sharma (Tory) played Discovery's original security chief in season 1. Kate Vernon, Dean Stockwell, and Rick Worthy have all been on various other Treks over the years
The final 5 went to the 12 colonies to warn them not to create Cylons to try and break the cycle. Upon arrival, they realised it was too late, and they had already created them, and were at war with them. They began experimenting on humans to try and find a way to reproduce. The final 5 shared their resurrection technology with the Cylons if they were to end the war and all experiments.
Maybe Galactica was the dying leader that was mentioned in the scrolls? 🤔
That's an incredibly insightful thought. And it's the first time I've heard of it. Congratulations!
I love Cavil's monologue. Terrific writing and acting.
This episode was all kinds of PERFECTION, it was really cool to get this strong set up to who what the final five were all about (mostly) and the performances by all specially Late Vernon (Love or Hate her character) she always delivers on performance same with Dean Stockwell they both shine in this episode so much. I really liked the idea of the 7th missing cylon which actually was from a plot hole in the story they realized that they had created the final 5 (which would have been the 12 cylons) but they realized that if this was the case they had already numbered the 8 Cylons but realized #7 was not one of them, and the fact they did not really want to put one of the final 5 as #7.... #8, #10, #11 and #12, they created the 7 as Daniel to fill that void that pit the final 5 as #9-#13. In top of it all it also goes back the the 13th tribe as been the one that went of to discover and build the Cylon Earth. over 2000 years earlier. Great reaction once again now we are at the final 5 these episodes are some of the coolest moments still yet to come, they do not go out on a low in my opinion in this show, it keeps ramping up for sure, enjoy.
I’ve rewatched this series numerous times, and I love season 4 more each time… A lot going on, and it’s orchestrated so beautifully. I’m super excited for you to see the finale, but at the same time, very sad that it’s coming to an end.
def Trumbril: an open cart that tilted backward to empty out its load, in particular one used to convey condemned prisoners to the guillotine during the French Revolution.
Loved this Ellen. Love the actress, she was fantastic throughout, even playing the Ellen I hated.
My only issue with this episode ( its one of the best episodes) is that Galen chose his words poorly when describing the problem with the old gal. He said 'as it matures', instantly invoking an image of a semi-conscious cybernetic being like the raiders or something, instantly putting the old man on the 'aw hell no' mode. What he should've said is 'as it hardens, like a resin'. There are biological resins that harden over time and i feel this would've put the old man at ease a bit more.
During John’s rant about the supernova, I couldn’t escape thinking. Here he is surrounded by all of this advanced technology. The cylons in this series seem to be quite adept at bio-mechanical cybernetics. The 1s could have given themselves all of the advancements that he was talking about. They didn’t because they wanted their hate more.
Yeah I wanted her to come back at him "we didn't give you those senses, but we did give you the ability to cognitively interface with a fucking starship by dipping your fingers in some water you jackass"
@gawainethefirst, Could they have and retained the same means of interacting with their brethren, though? Would such design manipulations leave the 1's control dynamic over the others, which was of overriding importance, as readily intact?
A tumbrel is a kind of cart which the French revolutionaries used to bring royalty--and anybody else they happened to dislike--to the guillotine.
You talking about Richard Hatch at the start. Michael Hogan had a bad fall around covid-times and is still trying to recover :(
I’ve heard that, so heart breaking
Talking about Richard Hatch, he was with the franchise from the beginning.
(27:15)
Tumbrel : cart to carry out the dead
I always assumed Cavil may've downloaded right before the Hub was destroyed, but idk.
As far as the history of the show, here it is as best as we know:
4,000 years ago, humanity started out on Kobol as 12 tribes, they eventually created their own cylons. After time, they split off, humanity went and colonized the 12 colonies, and the cylons went to earth and colonized that. Over time, they lost the need and knowledge of resurrection as they started having biological children.
They lasted for roughly 2,000 years, during which time, they created their own cylons, who eventually turned on them. Around the time of their apocalypse, they rediscovered resurrection, allowing the 5 to escape by redownloading. They set out to find the 12 colonies and warn them of what happened, as to prevent the colonies from suffering the same fate. Unfortunately, due to limited travel, it took them a long time to reach the colonies, which by then, were already at war.
In agreeing to help the colonial cylons create their own human models, the war was ended. During the peace, Cavil of course being the truly evil being he is, turned on them and planted them with false memories within the colonies and then carried out his plan, in the hope they'd realize humanity wasn't worth saving.
There was one not horrible Cavil, the resistance priest from Caprica. He was spaced in S2 finale and subsequently boxed by the rest of the Cavils.
I can't wait to see her reaction to BSG The Plan, she'll have a much deeper understanding of who Cavil truly is, as well as answer a few unanswered questions from the first two seasons.
Ellen coming out of the bath of goop with the help of the centurion was very reminiscent of The Creation of Adam. And then later her eating the apple. The relationship between Ellen and Cavil was very biblical. She wasn't just his mother. She was mother to all the human-model Cylons. She was Eve. And I absolutely love Dean Stockwell's "I don't want to be human" speech. He's rejecting the divinity that was his birth, wanting to make something of himself by himself.
What apple? There was never an apple in Genesis. Adam, was created as an infant, not a full-grown man. So I don't see the connection of 'coming out of the goop'. Any biblical connection with Cavil, would probably be better represented with him being like Nimrod, the first anti-christ who attempted to corrupt the system, by enslaving others to fulfil HIS desires to overthrow God, (or the system in the case of BSG). Ellen, if we had to connect her to a biblical figure would be more like Semjaza, the Fallen angel who conspired with the other fallen angels to create 'new life' in their particular image.
And the Daniel/John rivalry is very Cain and Abel.
SPOILER: elements like this lead me to believe that our modern earth mythology was passed down by our BSG ancestors. Seeing the Greek and Roman gods as well as the Abrahamic cult of Gaius/Cylons evolved into ancient faiths in our world. You could even say the concept of Cylon resurrection and the central mantra about things happening in cycles led to foundational ideas in Hinduism and Buddhism.
@@musicamaxima I could see this as well, and it fits with the whole 'christian/pagan' blended religion that is seen throughout the world today. Throughout the entire series, it was very similar to the early churches/religions, Athena, Apollo, even to the Sagitarrons, (reminding me of a more 'Amish' sect of a larger cult). In many ways, a lot of mythology was seen throughout the show, whether it was Prometheus bringing 'fire', or the 'demi-god son' defeating his father. Some might say it was 'over-used', but often when there is an apocalypse, people will turn to their 'faith/beliefs' as a from of comfort or assurance, and this was clearly seen in the series. Even the concept of 'exterminating the humans' could be indicative of the inquisition.
I can't see my earlier response to this. But there was no apple in Genesis. Nor was Adam, created from 'goop'. From a biblical standpoint, Cavil would be more in line with Nimrod, the first anti-christ who attempted to enslave others to suit his personal agenda. Interesting side note, being Nimrod was described to be 2/3rd man, and 1/3 'god', (being a lessor god). We see this as Cavil does not see himself as a cylon, but something beyond what a cylon would normally be. Where Ellen would be more akin to Semjaza, the fallen angel, who formed a pact with the other fallen angels to 'create' children made in their image.
@@paxzin8501 I can’t argue with that! But I’d wager RDM and the rest had a less intricate knowledge of biblical lore and leant on the “greatest hits,” so to speak.
Since this is the "revelation" episode, it's time to puzzle things together: all of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.
It's the story of creation, rebellion, extinction and creation again. Human life began on Kobol, where the "Gods of Kobol" (or some other living form of a creator, maybe just evolution at all) created humans, 12 tribes of human life. the humans themselves (I believe) created the 13th tribe, the original cylons. But they rebelled against their human creators, so they left Kobol and headed to another planet called Earth. After this destructive event, the 12 human tribes rebelled against their creators, the gods of Kobol, and left for the Cyrannus star system and founded the 12 colonies of Kobol. Whilst their time on 12 different planets evolving and living, the 13th cylon tribe on Kobol created machines mimicing themselves, so they made their own type of centurions. This lead to an extinction level event on Earth, which aftermath was still visible many hundreds or thousands of years later witnessed in S04E10.
This cylon tribe however was diffrerent from the 12 human tribes on Kobol. They were as "artificially" created lifeforms capable of resurrection. Just like machines are "resurrectable" by changing parts and booting them up again, they could resurrect and live again after they died. Maybe this form of everlasting life was part of the conflict on Kobol, either conflict between the 12 human and the cylon tribe or conflict between the humans and the gods of Kobol. Either way, on their long travel from Kobol to Earth, they went trough evolution which made the 13th tribe capable of biologial reproduction just like humans. On the other hand, this lead to them "unlearning" how to resurrect. A small team of scientists (Tyrol, Anders, Tory, Saul and Ellen) were able to repair the cylon's ability to resurrect, but it was "too late" for the 13th tribe. They already made their own centurions and were heading into a global war between the 13th cylon tribe and their centurions, so when they repaired the resurrection, they very soon died afterwards due to the nuclear destruction of Earth. All of the 13th tribe left were those cylons presented in BSG as the "Final Five". They were able to resurrect, but learned the truth about the cycle of creation, rebellion and extinction, so they decided to warn the 12 human tribes of the fate they were running into. However, they weren't able to travel faster than light, so it took them many many years to arrive at the 12 colonies. In the meantime they created the skinjobs, 8 humanoid looking models to help them. Once they've reached the 12 colonies, they had already started their conflict with their own version of centurions. So they decided to partner up and give them resurrection technology in exchange for an end of the cylon war, which they did.
This marked the end of the first cylon war of the 12 colonies of Kobol. However, the Final Five were in for their own "extinction" by their creation, the skinjobs. Cavil poisoned the whole model line 7 out of envy, reprogrammed the other skinjob's memories and killed every copy of the final five, except for one single copy of each Tyrol, Tory, Anders, Saul and Ellen, which were then put into the human tribes unknowing of their own cylon heritage. He wanted them to die in the Extinction-level 2nd war of the cylons (at least that's what we learned in this episode), which marked the beginning of this series. But they all survived, so his "lesson" he wanted to teach them never got teached up to the end.
Anyways, that's everything we know or are capable of puzzling together now at this state of the show. Although I very much like this episode due to great speeches, revelations and tension build up during flashbacks and the scenes with Anders, the whole explanation falls short due to the time this show has left, as well due to the time Anders is given until he undergoes surgery.
Hopefully I could help some people understand the story. If I made some mistakes, feel free to correct me ^^
I was waiting for this episode to see her freak out over Ellen. Also love the braids
19:30
year 2009, ladies and gentlemen.
the last significant scene of sci-fi, ever.... the machine who WANTS to keep being a machine, because humans are so frakked up he wants nothing with it.
there was another work across the pond, a comedy, that began with the quote "Year 2009. The world is dominated by idiocy"
and effectively, we've been on the decline since then
The main difference between FTL systems from the Cylon and Colonial perspectives is computing power.
When the rescue of Sam Anders and the others from Caprica by the fleet was first being talked about, it was stated that a rescue attempt would take their Raptors over 240 jumps to reach Caprica. When the attempt was made the actual number of jumps was just ten, or at least twenty four times less than previously determined.
This was because they were using an FTL computer from a captured Cylon Heavy Raider, with Athena acting as an interface. The Cylon FTL calcualted the jump, and then Athena programmed the jump on her's, and Starbuck's Raptor. These coordinates were then passed on to the other Raptors. The reason that Racetrack and Skulls ended up finding New Caprica was because when programming their jump coordinates some numbers got 'kicked' (swapped).
There is no maximum range that an FTL can jump a ship, but every one has a 'red line'. The 'red' line' is the maximum safe jump range that the various ships can safely calculate a target destination for. The better your calculating power, the further you can safely jump. However, the further you jump, the more errors creep into the calculation until it reaches a point where it is no longer safe to jump. Again think about the Caprica Rescue, Racetrack and Skulls ended up in completely the wrong place and another Raptor ended up jumping inside a mountain, even with the Cylon jump cooradinates, all because a few digits were off.
As for why the hardware takes time to 'spool up', FTL jumps require an enormous amount of energy to rip the ship from point A and let it reappear at point B. That energy needs to be generated. That takes time. The energy needed to jump a ship from one planet in a system to the nearest planet in the same system is no different than the energy needed to jump a ship from one end of the galaxy to the other. There is, hardware wise, no upper limit to how far a ship can jump. The limiting factor is the 'red line', how far a ship can safely calculate a safe jump. Cylon FTL systems can probably generate that energy faster, and may even have redundant systems to allow for more frequent jumps.
A final point to think about is brought up in the mini series, and Battlestar Galactica: Deadlock. Colonial ships don't typically jump their ships, instead they use sublight drives to get around. One reason a colonial ship would jump is if it needed to reach another one of the Helios stars in the Helios system, which is a quaternary system (it has four suns) each sun has its own system of planets, with 12 of those planets falling into the habitable sphere of their suns.
Helios Alpha -
Caprica, Picon, Gemenon, Tauron.
Helios Beta -
Leonis, Virgon.
Helios Gamma -
Scorpia, Libran, Sagitarron.
Helios Delta -
Aerilon, Canceron, Aquaria.
These four star systems have a complex orbit set up. Helios Alpha and Beta obit around a common point, while Helios Gamma and Delta orbit around another common point, and then both Helios pairs obit around yet another common point.
As can be seen from the system list if you wanted to go from Caprica to Picon you could use sublight travel, but to go from Aerilon to Caprica, as Gaius did, you would need to make an FTL jump as these two worlds are orbiting different stars.
Prior to the First Cylon War, as depicted in Deadlock, the colonials out sourced their FTL calculations to the IDRIS network which allowed for a ship to jump from any world in any system to any other in a single jump. After the Cylons compromised the IDRIS network, jumps between systems became impossible to safely calculate, and so getting from one system to another meant using intermediary jump points, and then recalculating the next jump leg and then repeating the process.
This outsourcing also helps explain why the Cylon FTL computers are so vastly superior to colonial ones. The colonials had primitive FTL set ups on their ships, relying on the IDRIS network for much of their computing power. Once the IDRIS network was taken down their primitive systems were able to still calculate jumps, but at vastly reduced distances.
1) Another limiting factor would likely be astrometric scanning range. If you can't see far enough no amount of calculation capacity will help you.
2) Where'd you find all this detail about the colonies and their history? I'd love to read up on it.
@@phydeux The First Cylon War stuff is from BSG: Deadlock and the spin off series Caprica, and Blood and Chrome. While Deadlock may or may not be canon, it was made to link in with the RDM show. And I assume it is canon until some one shows me otherwise.
For example its second season includes the Ghost Fleet offensive, which is discussed briefly at the end of Blood and Chrome. Deadlock actually lets you play through the Ghost Fleet Offensive.
Part of the Deadlock's first season shows how the Colonials can jump to any world in any system from any point, until the Cylons hack the IDRIS network, and the Colonials are forced to start destroying the corrupted satelittes only to learn that the entire network has been corrupted.
With no IDRIS network Colonials need to make shorter jumps passing through various interveening areas. The game map lays out which colony is in which Helios system.
I can't recall where I read about which of the pairs of suns orbit each other, while they in turn orbit around a fixed point, but I do remember it because it made sense that while you could have maybe two, three or four worlds in a star's habitable zone, you couldn't have twelve as the original series had it set out.
Sorry I can't be of more help. But if you want to see Deadlock for yourself there are plenty of youtubers who have playthroughs of it all.
@@davebeattie9573 - That's a lot of help. I wasn't even aware of Deadlock. I may have seen Blood and Chrome, but it's been so long I don't remember it. But yeah, I think I'll be looking up a playthrough.
I still have yet to finish the PS2 BSG game. I bought it, played maybe 15 minutes of it, and it's been collecting dust ever since.
@@davebeattie9573, Whatever its source, your knowledge of such detail is extremely impressive and warrants praise (even if you might demur). Bravo!!! 👏 👏 👏
Dean Stockwell, Rest in Power!
34:51 - Galactica isn't 50 years old. They said Galactica was 50 years old *before the war even started*. lol
So then she fought through the Cylon war, served some unspecified time longer, and then was being turned into a museum ship.
Kater Vernon was probably 47 or so when this episode filmed. She definitely looks great. It's crazy that is only 5 years older than I am now.
Its worth noting that Galen is basically telling Adama that his options are the resin or losing Galactica altogether. Without something to fix the rot, they won't have many jumps/fights left and then they'd have to abandon Galactica. That would leave the base ship as the only real firepower left in the fleet. I'd take the resin over losing the firepower Galactica represents. Battlestars have already been shown to be generally better in a 1v1 fight (or even outnumbered). Plus there's the politics of losing Galactica and having the Cylon ship, even if Adama commands it, as thew guardian of the fleet. Also, a lot of people live in the starboard flight pod (plus ship's crew) that would need to go somewhere.
"So is my XO" = "I still care about you"
Now you need to cope with the revelation that the "Final Five" are not actually the final five. Rather, they could be called the "Initial Five". It all ended up being a very clever misdirection. The Initial Five existed on their own home world (together with the rest of the biologically reproducing 13th tribe that had abandoned resurrection technology) a couple of thousand years before any cylons were created on Caprica by the 12 colonies, or before the 8 numbered models were even later on created by the five.
26:50 Biological as in the way coral is biological for instance.
John Hopkins? Mayo? These people have a faster than light drive... let them do my brain surgery thanks 😂
@dirkantoine1, FTL, sure, but I don't believe it was shown or related that technological advancement was present in the Colonies, across the board. In a number of ways, I don't believe their civilization was any more advanced than our own. Sure, medical care was almost assuredly better on one of the home planets than on a relic of a battlestar, but what evidence was there of any advantage in transportation, engineering, or health sciences generally, leading say, to longer lifespans?
Even in their warships, did they use railguns, let alone particle beam weaponry, instead of having nukes as their ultimate tool to bring to bear? Were energy shielding or even hull plating (to crib from Enterprise) used to protect these vessels? It seems a pretty uneven paradigm, overall.
@mitchellmelkin4078 so just for clarification, you think that our current medical system i.e John Hopkins University is on par with the medical system portrayed in this "SciFi" show? They have robots looking like humans, there's a pregnant toaster 😂😂 ... well you win, you let the Mayo clinic do your brain surgery and I'll take my chances with Cottle.. cigarette in hand an all lol..
"It's in her bones" that's not fixable by human means
"I don't want to be human!"
Also the fucking casual drop that Cavil was the one who gave the 5 fake memories and put them in the colonies
Is it a spoiler if it's revealed in this video? Is the spoiler tag for you or other viewers?
So how much Mayo do they have at the mayo clinic? That's an Airplane reference. If you haven't seen you must. ITS SO FUNNY =D
Interesting fact that the actor who played Sam was in an accident that severely hurt his neck, and they used it in the series.
Okay, now that *everything* is on the table and we can fully talk about the history, let's see if I remember the order of things:
1) Drama on Kobol
2) 13th (Cylon) tribe leaves Kobol. May be before the other 12 leave, may already be humanoid and have Resurrection.
3) 12 Tribes leave Kobol. Everyone establishes their respective planets.
4) Earth Cylons are able to have children when love is part of the equation, and let Resurrection pass into obscurity.
5) Angels warn the Final Five of the impending rebellion. They ensure their own Resurrection and then leave on a ship *slower than light* to reach the 12 Colonies. Trip takes 2,000 years.
6) First Cylon War rages. The Final Five arrive, and promise to make the Centurions biological bodies if they end the war with the humans.
7) Armistice, and creation of the 8 humanoid Cylon model.
8) Cavil betrays the Five, and inserts them into the Colonies to "teach them about humanity" and basically watches them suffer.
9) The new Fall of Man, with the Galactica leading the new Exodus, completing the cycle of time. Cavil ensures the Five are alive and in the Fleet so their "lesson" continues.
10) The show proceeds as we see, with our conclusion imminent.
I knew you'd love this Ellen, the full Ellen!
A tumbril is an open ended two wheeled cart that tilted to unload its contents used during the French Revolution to bring prisoners to the guillotine. A little bit of historical facts thrown in there. 😢
I've not heard it before, but it's very interesting to learn your profession is dentistry/orthodontics. There's no reason to think it odd, but I don't think I would've ever guessed that!!!
At any rate, it's again noteworthy to me, that despite your indisputably bountiful empathy and compassion, you find it easy to consign Cavil to the cage of being a monster and nothing more, apparently. This, while acknowledging how his struggle with the definition of his nature is so clearly laid out in this episode.
Now, while I can't say this with assurance, it certainly seems that a principal foundation of the series was to present just about every character, human or Cylon, as being on an aspirational quest to define themselves, as being something more, better, or simply different. All in the middle of the hellish cauldron of an existentially threatening conflict. I believe such a struggle even apllied to someone as apparently unregenerately evil as Cavil.
No, we're not meant to sympathize, let alone root for him. Yet, if we can apprehend his rationale for seeking humanity's destruction and look past that, the closer view at the despair he feels in how he's limited from reaching what he essentially desires from his existence can at least be appreciated.
I don't reckon there's any way Cavil can remediate his condition in a way that's at all fulfilling, as you seem to posit is possible.How would he do it? I would certainly affirm that any change in his makeup and capabilities would require, allowing him to retain control of his brethren, as that urge is as elemental to him as is his anger, pettiness, and vindictiveness.
Ultimately, I find Cavil to be a nuanced individual, worthy of more attention than as the focus for implacable disdain, and not just by virtue of Stockwell's sterling performance. I would add, as you've likely already seen the finale, there's even more reason presented there to question how his motivations might, in fact, be malleable and no so predictably those of a one-note uber-villain.
Lastly, as you commented on it, it's kind of difficult to say Lee took Roslin's counsel to heart, when all was said and done, don't you think?
Ugh this episode made Ellen my favorite character! Kate Vernon is a criminally understated actress and this episode proves it. Ellen is an extremely complex character and Kate plays all of the nuance brilliantly. She is different with all of her returned memories, but she’s also very much the same. It’s as if Cavil amplified her flaws so they became her predominant human personality, but they are always there regardless. Ultimately, and without spoiling anything, I feel that Ellen wants to do good, but has the same human flaws she so admired that she built them into her children (the significant 7). Anyway, another great reaction! I’m so excited for you to see the rest, but also so sad it’s almost over! Thank you!
Just like that all is forgiven? Me: Yeah, they're men...
13:37 - As a man, I'd say a man would feel the same as you, if Chief hadn't basically forced the Admiral's hand during that argument at the bar. It's not just that the Admiral needed the Chief now, but also that it's evident that Chief has been pulling himself together, so he can be trusted with the job again.
39:53 - Keep in mind, it said this discussion took place 12-18 months ago, so it could be before D'Anna killed him. Or it could be a different one.
And now you understand why people would say Helen was a better character than she gets credit for.
"I've seen it before" - was a reference to when he forced her to have sex with him.
And Cavill raging as the humans enslaved the cylons was hilarious since the put inhibitors in the centurions and lobotomized the raiders.
When they started the series, they were always commenting that they needed to cut some corners to get it made. So, that's how the book thing came about. They regretted it later since they were spending a lot of time cutting the corners off of books and paper.
They definitely could've gone with a "yeah that's a certain style of paper but not omnipresent" excuse to back out of that joke haha.
I've always thought Daniel was Starbucks father. Which is why she is so significant to everything.
Perfect fan theory. It would explain A LOT. Unfortunately, it was dismissed by Ron Moore. On the other hand, I chose to agree with you. It makes too much sense. So let’s say he was indeed Starbuck’s father.
So say we all BSG fans!
Did you know the father of Kate Vernon played Dean Wermer in Animal House when Kate was 16. She told me dating in High school was always a problem when they first met Dean Wermer, and he played on it.
@corpusD, He was a fine actor too, though was kind of limited to genre roles.
Only if the Pegasus was still around...dammit Lee.
Cavi has Hybrid envy.
You would LOVE James Callas's performance in the 12 Monkeys tv series.
The Caprica series gives you a different take. Implying the download/resurrection technology was reinvented several times. It's all happen before, it will all happen again.
It's interesting to see a prevailing theme of the show seems to be the eventual goal of combining humans with Cylon, and now the Galactica with Cylon organics
It's sad you're coming to the end of the series. I've enjoyed watching the show with you so much. Another great reaction,thanks.👍
Cavil should be a centurion, for a show that well writen he is an unidimentional bad guy, almost a cliché, not better thant the imperfect humans he chased across the galaxy for five years out of petty jealousy!
18:25 - He knows Chief and Saul. He doesn't know all the other Cylons personally. I assume that's the reasoning.