I can only comment as an arborist but one issue I see is the trigger side pulling just under the weight of itself especially on long raps and in wet conditions. That said, zero percent chance you're going to hurt a tree by driving a single ⅝" forged eyebolt into it one time. If that's an option that could eliminate piles of garbage being left tied around the tree (which will eventually kill it) I think thats a conversation worth having.
A forged eye lag bolt would be a better bend radius than most rock anchors. A pilot hole helps, but most alpine trees are soft enough to not need any power tools.
@TimberTrainer exactly, ⅝" or ¾" might sound way overkill and it is if you were talking about pull out strength but I'm thinking that generous bend radius would eliminate any doubt one might have.
Just to push back a bit, you can't say there a zero percent chance it would hurt the tree. By definition you are injuring the tree and potentially exposing it to disease, pests, etc. However, the argument can definitely be made that there would be less impact to the health of the tree than other options. There's also situations where a an eye bolt/hardware might not make sense or be a safe option. Regarding the weight of the rope triggering the release that is a valid concern. Personally I only use the half CEM as a redirect which helps mitigate that and you keep a backup.
Tree surgions have a fantastic bit of kit called a "cambium saver." They are basically a retrievable bit of kit that goes around a branch and creates an anchor so that you aren't damaging the bark (or cambium) of the tree. In simple terms, think of a sling with a large belay ring on one end and a small belay ring on the other end. You run your rope through both rings and abseil down using both ends of the rope. When you want to retrieve the rope, put a knot on one end of the rope that will fit through the large belay ring but not the small ring. Pull the rope through, and the knot on the end of the rope will retrieve the cambium saver. You could easily come up with a way to abseil on 1 rope and retrieve the cambium saver using a thinner rope as well. 😊
And it gets stuck ALL THE TIME. Why I stopped using it. Any kind of rough bark or a y on a tree and that cambium saver is stuck HARD, its not coming down. Frankly better off just doing anything else. I gave mine away, technically I still have 1, but. Yea, it works on large horizontal branches, but the trees I climb, don't have them. or they are small.
I have made something like that. The trouble is that the large loop end has to go around the anchor when the rope is pulled. It works on a smooth branch, but is more likely to get stuck on rocks or a bolted anchor with rapides.
I 100% agree with cambium savers getting stuck in crotches and bark and shit (i abandoned mine for a micro pulley on a sling accepting I'll just have to retrieve it) But in this context we're talking about the cambium saver around a trunk, not in a union. Given you know how to make your own which it adjustable and long enough to use around any trunk then, I would trust the cambium saver over some slipknots any day of the week😂
@@maddiielisabeth3925 What tiny trees are you climbing where a cambium saver can actually reach around a trunk??? Seems mighty expensive and an utter waste of money for simple rope retrieval... just use a longer rope.
Yay!! Stoked you finally did the half CEM! I often use it as a redirect climbing in trees. If the CEM fails (never has) you still have a main tie in. You can also clip or tie your tail to the back for easy retrieval. One of my favorites, we often call it the beasthorn in the arb world although there's also a clove type variation. Thanks for doing this one, it would be awesome if you could do a short with a larger rope (11-12mm) that is more standard in our industry 🙂✌️
I actually got hosed over the weekend using an equivocation hitch. I got down to the bottom, popped the first loop, and the next one was stuck around a tree branch. Luckily i was on a route with access to the top, so i just walked back up and fixed it, but let this be a lesson to me and to anyone reading Make sure nothing can get snagged in your system if you want it retrievable
@whitewaterpirate very true and I'll definitely consider that! But what I should've done in the first place was clear all the branches near the anchor both for my sake, and for the other climbers that'll be there after me. This is almost definitely the aftermath of helene since this crag is near the south end of the Appalachian mountains. I'm headed back to the scene of the crime saturday, and I'm definitely going to clean up all the anchors there
In the USMC Assault Climbers course for a retrievable rappel we would find the center of the rope, go approx 1’ to the right of center, clove hitch to the spine of the carabiner, throw the rope around the anchor (usually a tree), then just clip the “running end” to the carabiner. Essentially creating a loop around the anchor. Double wrap both ropes around the spine of the carabiner on the harness and rappel. Once at the bottom, find the right rope that has the clove hitched carabiner and pull that side. The “running end” will then pull up the cliff and run through the carabiner and around the tree and you have your rope back. We used this a lot with zero issues.
To clarify, both rope ends would be touching the ground, then the running end was clipped through the clove hitched carabiner. Youd tie a stopper knot on the running end. But we never had any issues since both ropes are being tensioned/weighted equally at the same time
For scenarios where both releasability and retrievable are wanted, I found that a fiddlestick or other toggle can be used, by placing it in a stone knot in a length of anchor webbing that has a rap ring tied at one end. I’m believe this is a sinpler way than hard or soft plaquette to get the same benefits. Plus the upside that if the anchor webbing snags, the team is just out a few feet of webbing and a rap ring, instead of a whole rope or pull cord.
Could we get a video on a bunch of methods to bail on a route without leaving gear behind? All i've heard in waste a carabiner or a long stick clip. I don't trust most people online (I believe for good reason) but you always leave unbiased thought
A version of the CEM was taught to me by a Navy SEAL. The knot was tied at the bitter end and weighted then a loop was cut so that you can repel the full length of the rope, give it a flick and retrieve the rope less the short cut end. The trick was to always keep the rope under tension once the loop was cut else you day would suck. But only for a few seconds.
I believe you were using a variation of a sheepshank. I have seen this done and also seen it fail at less than 1Kn. In the case of what those guys do, sometimes the risk is necessary.
@@whitewaterpirate The half CEM is a sheepshank. I don't know why someone felt the need to give it a new name. The full CEM is just a sheepshank with a bight passed through one of the loops and the other half hitch to secure it a bit more. Tying a sheepshank and cutting the middle strand is an age-old technique, but I wouldn't do it for a life supporting task.
We use life support knots for tree work. A running Butterfly is a good solution when you don't have any hardware. The same Butterfly in a jamming configuration would work in a bolt. You can have the same functionality of this ghosting without penalty of death.
Yeah, I can't believe that anything in this video is better than a butterfly. Some ridiculous knots where you can easily kill yourself by touching the wrong line, and a bunch of extra kit that only works with the death knots. A butterfly with a ring or pulley to aid retrieval is so much safer.
Very cool video, in tree climbing the half cem or sw cem as you demonstrated is called a beasthorn and is used a redirect off of your original cinched canopy anchor. I have been on the fence about using the beasthorn redirect, but it is extremely useful as it only uses 1 extra leg of rope to retrieve vs 2 extra legs like i see in other retrievable redirects being taught that are more redundant. To add, it would be awesome if you could re test the half cem or beasthorn as we call it with 3, 4, and 5 half hitches instead of 2 and see how it does. I have heard people say 5, the guy who originally came up with it taught 2 like you did, and I was told from a very very trustworthy climber that he has used it and recommended at least 4 half hitches.
I usually use the half-CEM on low angle slopes where I don't feel comfortable just walking down/down climbing, but also don't want to put the effort into building an anchor AND I don't want to just doublestrand and pull 100ft of rope around a tree. So, the half-CEM is easy, fairly secure, considering I am not doing super steep rappels on it.
So... The Full CEM then, right?! Lol! You are either dead or paralyzed AND you can still getch yo shit back! I dig Brent. He is a great presenter, or whatever ya call it. Thanks for takin us along all! Can't wait for some sweet ass Bobby action comin up here soon too! Shoot dang!
I like the CEM for single pitch rope solo with closed hardware. You end up at the anchors right in the middle of the rope, so it's a pain pulling the whole thing up to pass through the rings. I can usually keep an eye on it for the whole rap, and if it gets stuck, my anchor line is still there and I can safely re-climb the pitch to untangle it.
There is a variation the CEM I have been messing with for a few years but I am too scared to try and use it in the wild. It is a variation on the half CEM that uses 4 alternating half hitches. The benefit is that if one capsizes, the knot would have capsize the opposite direction the next time and the reverse one more time before getting stuck. I *think* the release is consistent and easy while unloaded and completely unmovable under loads I can achieve at home. Again, too scared to try it for fun, but if I ever need a plan F, I have something in the back pocket.
I would like to see a test combined multiple knot in one line rope. See which one and where fails first. Something like a bowline anchored on one end and an anchor hitch on the other end and a Zeppelin Bend joint in the middle. That would be great to find out.
I wonder If there ist a video of Adam Ondras Climbingknot out there. I never saw a test of that bowlin with the backup knot that he uses. I think it's common in the US ,but not so much in europe.
Bowlines are about as strong as figure 8s, and with a back up theres no chance of it coming undone If i have to set up a temp rapel to get to some bolts for a top rope solo, ill do a bowline with a smith lock back up and have no qualms about it
So i over the years i read and learnd a lot about it. I also use it when climbing. I just wonder why there are close to no videos about this specific knot that some climbers like Ondra and co are using. Double bowline yes,but mit Video of the single with the backup knot.
If you are putting your rope through or around something why not just rappel down both half's of the rope and then pull it around and down like it's been done for the last 100 years? Why does it need to be tied to the anchor point now and only rappel down one strand? Am I missing something?
Read from another comment on this vid that the reason for these techniques is to reduce the wear that pulling half the rope back around the tree causes. It reduces the wear on the tree and the rope. No doubt many of these techniques are pretty complicated and if not done perfectly will result in your death. I don't think I would ever attempt any of these simply out of fear of tying them wrong though.
If you have been rappelling with 60m of rope, the friction around the tree might make it impossible to retrieve. Do not forget that most trees are not directly in the wall but a bit set back on a ledge, adding more friction. And there is the issue of wear on the tree. Personally, I think that the best way is to leave a piece of cord behind and rappel from that. If you are really worried about leaving a trace, you could just use a cord from natural fibers that will decompose within a few years.
Yes. The rope can get very stuck, it kills the tree, and leaves rope scars in the rock. Some places with softer stone have just horrific grooving where everybody rappels.
@@think-some-time But that grooving can be prevented by 1) bolting a rappel near the edge and 2) adding a horizontal metal bar. If something is frequented enough to cause grooving, insisting on non-bolting to leave no trace is silly
Just a thought, you guys demonstrated that once loaded with the force of a fall you cant un do them with body weight/pressure. My question comes in at that point, why dont you guys re rig to the release strand and see what kind of foce it takes to retrieve the rope. My curiosity is after loading does it take more force, same force, less force than was initially applied to the load strand? Would love to see even a few of the ones you did today tested that way.
I had a crazy idea, im sure someone else has done it but but my ATC has the basic shape plaquette. So I tried hanging on it. Does ok with 200 pounds not sure on a real load though. I use 7 mil cord as the anchor line. I don't know if I would actually use it like that. I know what you guys would say, but I'm kinda curious.lol
Anyone ever had a carabiner shipped and it arrived hot, like over 80° F temp? I ordered aluminum 40kN biner last summer from a local climbing gear dealer here on east coast. Is it super safe enough to climb with? or Does aluminum become weak and britle after getting hot?
This is not very hot in metallurgical terms. If you want to convince yourself this is safe, just consider that when it over 80 F outside, all of your gear will be this warm after just a couple of hours. Not to mention that carabiners will get much hotter than this while you’re climbing when sitting in the sun for a few minutes and especially when you’re lowering and the rope is running over the biner. If you’ve ever touched your ATC after a long dusty rappel, you’ll know the metal can get VERY VERY hot :)
Something I am unclear about from this video, is weather all of these techniques are prone to the failure mode demonstrated with the macrame hitch, i. e. if you pull on the trigger while rappel rope is weighted it causes catastrophic failure. Is this true of all of them? I realize that the systems that use two separate ropes will make this eventuality less likely.
Surprised friction saver (friction loop) didn’t make the cut for ghosting although knots aren’t a vital part, I’ve seen a bunch of people using friction loops in canyons some home made with quick links and webbing and some from manufacturers (I believe originally designed for arborists) I’d be interested in some beta on friction loops if you’re ever looking for more topics!
All canyoneers down here tie the SW CEM with 3 half-hitches, NOT 2, and find it is very hard to release, by pulling the release strand by mistake, WHEN THE LOAD STRAND IS WEIGHTED BY YOUR BODY. With 3 half-hitches, a load of 800 lbs still allows the release, whereas an equivocation hitch sticks after about 600 lbs.
The idea of using crochet as a releasable knot should terrify anyone who's ever done crochet or knitting. Those loops come undone at the slightest provocation! You have to finish your work with an actual knot or by weaving a long enough length of the loose end back into the previous work until friction can hold it.
@ Adding more loops does not increase the force needed to undo a loop! The last loop will come undone as easily as the first. You could add 100 crochets and it would still be recklessly dangerous.
Youve completely missed the point of the video These are for when you need to rappel, dont want to leave anything behind, and dont have anchors to run your rope through If you wrap your rope around a tree for a double strand rappel, youre gonna damage your rope and the tree once you go to retrieve your rope
Is it a coincidence that August Hunnike(sp?) is looking for a fusible link for the flip line when you might want to quickly bail from a super sketchy tree and then this video pops up? @9:47 is an interesting idea to me because that's already a redirect idea I have been taught. Might be able to adapt it to my flipline connection with some accessory cord. Thanks for the video!
I always just make a figure 8 knot in the middle of the rope, pull the rope over a branch, so that a On either side of the branch is an end and clip the figure 8 to the repelling side, so that i just have to worry about clipping the correct ropeto descend. when i take it down half of the rope gets dragged across the branch but at least im safe
Why do people keep inventing new names for knots? The "half CEM" is just a sheepshank. Call it a sheepshank. The American Southwest definitely did not invent the sheepshank.
@thomasdalton1508 a half cem and full cem look remarkably similar. Even if the half was called a sheepshank for a long time, as a teaching tool it makes sense to give it a new name And different disciplines use different names for the same thing
@alakazam482 I think as a teaching tool it makes sense to refer to things by their known names. A sheepshank is one of the first knots people learn. It's much easier to learn to tie a CEM (and to verify it) if you realise it is just a sheepshank with a bight through the lower loop and upper half-hitch. Call it something like a "reinforced sheepshank" and people will get the hang of it and remember it much more easily.
@@thomasdalton1508 a sheepshank is one of the first knots you learn in certain disciplines. In rock climbing you'd basically never need one, and in canyoning you'd learn the sheepshank and full CEM around the same time so it makes more sense to call them by similar names because of how similar they are. Plus looking up sheepshank, it's for shortening a rope, not for use as a releasable rappel hitch
@@Mike-B-Jackson you're missing a big point of this This is for when you dont have bolts or any other man made way of fixing your rope. If you tie a reepschnur around a tree, you're gonna be dragging half your rope across the tree bark. That'll scar the tree and chew up your sheath All of these systems here only have a bight of rope go across the tree or rock or whatever it is you're anchoring to
This is DEFINITELY a HowNOT2 video...
I can only comment as an arborist but one issue I see is the trigger side pulling just under the weight of itself especially on long raps and in wet conditions. That said, zero percent chance you're going to hurt a tree by driving a single ⅝" forged eyebolt into it one time. If that's an option that could eliminate piles of garbage being left tied around the tree (which will eventually kill it) I think thats a conversation worth having.
Climbers are far too stupid to think leaving safe fixed gear is a good idea.
A forged eye lag bolt would be a better bend radius than most rock anchors. A pilot hole helps, but most alpine trees are soft enough to not need any power tools.
@TimberTrainer exactly, ⅝" or ¾" might sound way overkill and it is if you were talking about pull out strength but I'm thinking that generous bend radius would eliminate any doubt one might have.
Just to push back a bit, you can't say there a zero percent chance it would hurt the tree. By definition you are injuring the tree and potentially exposing it to disease, pests, etc. However, the argument can definitely be made that there would be less impact to the health of the tree than other options. There's also situations where a an eye bolt/hardware might not make sense or be a safe option. Regarding the weight of the rope triggering the release that is a valid concern. Personally I only use the half CEM as a redirect which helps mitigate that and you keep a backup.
As an arborist, the trees I have seen at belay stations and used in crags are usually in a very poor state and would not want to trust many of them.
Tree surgions have a fantastic bit of kit called a "cambium saver." They are basically a retrievable bit of kit that goes around a branch and creates an anchor so that you aren't damaging the bark (or cambium) of the tree. In simple terms, think of a sling with a large belay ring on one end and a small belay ring on the other end. You run your rope through both rings and abseil down using both ends of the rope. When you want to retrieve the rope, put a knot on one end of the rope that will fit through the large belay ring but not the small ring. Pull the rope through, and the knot on the end of the rope will retrieve the cambium saver. You could easily come up with a way to abseil on 1 rope and retrieve the cambium saver using a thinner rope as well. 😊
And it gets stuck ALL THE TIME. Why I stopped using it. Any kind of rough bark or a y on a tree and that cambium saver is stuck HARD, its not coming down. Frankly better off just doing anything else. I gave mine away, technically I still have 1, but. Yea, it works on large horizontal branches, but the trees I climb, don't have them. or they are small.
I have made something like that. The trouble is that the large loop end has to go around the anchor when the rope is pulled. It works on a smooth branch, but is more likely to get stuck on rocks or a bolted anchor with rapides.
I 100% agree with cambium savers getting stuck in crotches and bark and shit (i abandoned mine for a micro pulley on a sling accepting I'll just have to retrieve it)
But in this context we're talking about the cambium saver around a trunk, not in a union. Given you know how to make your own which it adjustable and long enough to use around any trunk then, I would trust the cambium saver over some slipknots any day of the week😂
@@maddiielisabeth3925 What tiny trees are you climbing where a cambium saver can actually reach around a trunk??? Seems mighty expensive and an utter waste of money for simple rope retrieval... just use a longer rope.
I mean if you climb to the tippy top of an excurrent tree you can get a tie-in around the trunk where it's the size of your arm
Loving the videos and information provided with them.Thanks guys
Yay!! Stoked you finally did the half CEM! I often use it as a redirect climbing in trees. If the CEM fails (never has) you still have a main tie in. You can also clip or tie your tail to the back for easy retrieval. One of my favorites, we often call it the beasthorn in the arb world although there's also a clove type variation. Thanks for doing this one, it would be awesome if you could do a short with a larger rope (11-12mm) that is more standard in our industry 🙂✌️
I love this niche canyoning content. Great guests as well!
I actually got hosed over the weekend using an equivocation hitch. I got down to the bottom, popped the first loop, and the next one was stuck around a tree branch. Luckily i was on a route with access to the top, so i just walked back up and fixed it, but let this be a lesson to me and to anyone reading
Make sure nothing can get snagged in your system if you want it retrievable
This is where the tail (rope end) around the anchor techniques can be better. No loop to snag on anything.
@whitewaterpirate very true and I'll definitely consider that! But what I should've done in the first place was clear all the branches near the anchor both for my sake, and for the other climbers that'll be there after me. This is almost definitely the aftermath of helene since this crag is near the south end of the Appalachian mountains. I'm headed back to the scene of the crime saturday, and I'm definitely going to clean up all the anchors there
GREAT video! And very timely for me is I just started trying to find a good ghost system. Thanks guys!
Awesome educational content. Thanks guys.
In the USMC Assault Climbers course for a retrievable rappel we would find the center of the rope, go approx 1’ to the right of center, clove hitch to the spine of the carabiner, throw the rope around the anchor (usually a tree), then just clip the “running end” to the carabiner. Essentially creating a loop around the anchor. Double wrap both ropes around the spine of the carabiner on the harness and rappel. Once at the bottom, find the right rope that has the clove hitched carabiner and pull that side. The “running end” will then pull up the cliff and run through the carabiner and around the tree and you have your rope back. We used this a lot with zero issues.
To clarify, both rope ends would be touching the ground, then the running end was clipped through the clove hitched carabiner. Youd tie a stopper knot on the running end. But we never had any issues since both ropes are being tensioned/weighted equally at the same time
I find all of the demonstrated knot methods horrifying, and variations on yours - rappelling on both ropes - feels so much safer.
For scenarios where both releasability and retrievable are wanted, I found that a fiddlestick or other toggle can be used, by placing it in a stone knot in a length of anchor webbing that has a rap ring tied at one end. I’m believe this is a sinpler way than hard or soft plaquette to get the same benefits. Plus the upside that if the anchor webbing snags, the team is just out a few feet of webbing and a rap ring, instead of a whole rope or pull cord.
Could we get a video on a bunch of methods to bail on a route without leaving gear behind? All i've heard in waste a carabiner or a long stick clip. I don't trust most people online (I believe for good reason) but you always leave unbiased thought
A version of the CEM was taught to me by a Navy SEAL. The knot was tied at the bitter end and weighted then a loop was cut so that you can repel the full length of the rope, give it a flick and retrieve the rope less the short cut end. The trick was to always keep the rope under tension once the loop was cut else you day would suck. But only for a few seconds.
I believe you were using a variation of a sheepshank. I have seen this done and also seen it fail at less than 1Kn. In the case of what those guys do, sometimes the risk is necessary.
bear grylls called this the kamikaze knot
@@whitewaterpirate The half CEM is a sheepshank. I don't know why someone felt the need to give it a new name. The full CEM is just a sheepshank with a bight passed through one of the loops and the other half hitch to secure it a bit more. Tying a sheepshank and cutting the middle strand is an age-old technique, but I wouldn't do it for a life supporting task.
We use life support knots for tree work. A running Butterfly is a good solution when you don't have any hardware. The same Butterfly in a jamming configuration would work in a bolt. You can have the same functionality of this ghosting without penalty of death.
Yeah, I can't believe that anything in this video is better than a butterfly. Some ridiculous knots where you can easily kill yourself by touching the wrong line, and a bunch of extra kit that only works with the death knots. A butterfly with a ring or pulley to aid retrieval is so much safer.
Very cool video, in tree climbing the half cem or sw cem as you demonstrated is called a beasthorn and is used a redirect off of your original cinched canopy anchor. I have been on the fence about using the beasthorn redirect, but it is extremely useful as it only uses 1 extra leg of rope to retrieve vs 2 extra legs like i see in other retrievable redirects being taught that are more redundant. To add, it would be awesome if you could re test the half cem or beasthorn as we call it with 3, 4, and 5 half hitches instead of 2 and see how it does. I have heard people say 5, the guy who originally came up with it taught 2 like you did, and I was told from a very very trustworthy climber that he has used it and recommended at least 4 half hitches.
I usually use the half-CEM on low angle slopes where I don't feel comfortable just walking down/down climbing, but also don't want to put the effort into building an anchor AND I don't want to just doublestrand and pull 100ft of rope around a tree. So, the half-CEM is easy, fairly secure, considering I am not doing super steep rappels on it.
Love that hard plaquette mode.
Will have to learn that one.
Thanks guys!! Awesome!! 👍😎
So... The Full CEM then, right?! Lol!
You are either dead or paralyzed AND you can still getch yo shit back!
I dig Brent. He is a great presenter, or whatever ya call it. Thanks for takin us along all! Can't wait for some sweet ass Bobby action comin up here soon too! Shoot dang!
This is awesome! I love learning new things the easy way!
I love tat it shows somebody rappelled there and shows places that were climbed
I like the CEM for single pitch rope solo with closed hardware. You end up at the anchors right in the middle of the rope, so it's a pain pulling the whole thing up to pass through the rings. I can usually keep an eye on it for the whole rap, and if it gets stuck, my anchor line is still there and I can safely re-climb the pitch to untangle it.
I usually climb multipitch routes with half ropes and after this video I’m not gonna change my mind
There is a variation the CEM I have been messing with for a few years but I am too scared to try and use it in the wild. It is a variation on the half CEM that uses 4 alternating half hitches. The benefit is that if one capsizes, the knot would have capsize the opposite direction the next time and the reverse one more time before getting stuck. I *think* the release is consistent and easy while unloaded and completely unmovable under loads I can achieve at home. Again, too scared to try it for fun, but if I ever need a plan F, I have something in the back pocket.
love you guys have an arborist helping
This is some smart stuff.
I would like to see a test combined multiple knot in one line rope. See which one and where fails first. Something like a bowline anchored on one end and an anchor hitch on the other end and a Zeppelin Bend joint in the middle.
That would be great to find out.
I wonder If there ist a video of Adam Ondras Climbingknot out there.
I never saw a test of that bowlin with the backup knot that he uses.
I think it's common in the US ,but not so much in europe.
Bowlines are about as strong as figure 8s, and with a back up theres no chance of it coming undone
If i have to set up a temp rapel to get to some bolts for a top rope solo, ill do a bowline with a smith lock back up and have no qualms about it
So i over the years i read and learnd a lot about it. I also use it when climbing. I just wonder why there are close to no videos about this specific knot that some climbers like Ondra and co are using. Double bowline yes,but mit Video of the single with the backup knot.
I ment....but no Video about the single with backup knot.... Sorry, autokorrektur...
Does the gear in the hardware based approaches safely survives a lot falls on the rock?
Why dont you guys use a cambium/friction saver instead? It's what we arborists use for retrievable tree canopy anchor
If you are putting your rope through or around something why not just rappel down both half's of the rope and then pull it around and down like it's been done for the last 100 years? Why does it need to be tied to the anchor point now and only rappel down one strand? Am I missing something?
Read from another comment on this vid that the reason for these techniques is to reduce the wear that pulling half the rope back around the tree causes. It reduces the wear on the tree and the rope.
No doubt many of these techniques are pretty complicated and if not done perfectly will result in your death. I don't think I would ever attempt any of these simply out of fear of tying them wrong though.
If you have been rappelling with 60m of rope, the friction around the tree might make it impossible to retrieve. Do not forget that most trees are not directly in the wall but a bit set back on a ledge, adding more friction. And there is the issue of wear on the tree.
Personally, I think that the best way is to leave a piece of cord behind and rappel from that. If you are really worried about leaving a trace, you could just use a cord from natural fibers that will decompose within a few years.
Yes. The rope can get very stuck, it kills the tree, and leaves rope scars in the rock. Some places with softer stone have just horrific grooving where everybody rappels.
@@think-some-time But that grooving can be prevented by 1) bolting a rappel near the edge and 2) adding a horizontal metal bar. If something is frequented enough to cause grooving, insisting on non-bolting to leave no trace is silly
Just a thought, you guys demonstrated that once loaded with the force of a fall you cant un do them with body weight/pressure.
My question comes in at that point, why dont you guys re rig to the release strand and see what kind of foce it takes to retrieve the rope.
My curiosity is after loading does it take more force, same force, less force than was initially applied to the load strand?
Would love to see even a few of the ones you did today tested that way.
I had a crazy idea, im sure someone else has done it but but my ATC has the basic shape plaquette. So I tried hanging on it. Does ok with 200 pounds not sure on a real load though. I use 7 mil cord as the anchor line. I don't know if I would actually use it like that. I know what you guys would say, but I'm kinda curious.lol
Pezel Eject would work so much better god I pray you bought one to try & test & stock 😉😉
You had a couple of new systems that I missed in my video, mabe I need to do some more testing.
ua-cam.com/video/TEjTx3qdLSw/v-deo.htmlsi=Ect9NsXlUtaX03F-
I'm intrigued by that pro protect line. Have we tried that "static till it isn't" on a drop tower?
you gotta test the beal escaper if you are about ghosting
If you want a retrievable anchor around a tree, why not just use a cambium saver? They work great unless you get them stuck in a crotch.
I will try these in the comfort of my bedroom. Lol
Anyone ever had a carabiner shipped and it arrived hot, like over 80° F temp? I ordered aluminum 40kN biner last summer from a local climbing gear dealer here on east coast.
Is it super safe enough to climb with? or Does aluminum become weak and britle after getting hot?
This is not very hot in metallurgical terms. If you want to convince yourself this is safe, just consider that when it over 80 F outside, all of your gear will be this warm after just a couple of hours. Not to mention that carabiners will get much hotter than this while you’re climbing when sitting in the sun for a few minutes and especially when you’re lowering and the rope is running over the biner. If you’ve ever touched your ATC after a long dusty rappel, you’ll know the metal can get VERY VERY hot :)
It should still be safe even if it's hot enough to melt your rope 🤕
Something I am unclear about from this video, is weather all of these techniques are prone to the failure mode demonstrated with the macrame hitch, i. e. if you pull on the trigger while rappel rope is weighted it causes catastrophic failure. Is this true of all of them? I realize that the systems that use two separate ropes will make this eventuality less likely.
Would you have a chance to test MexiKnotl, too?
Surprised friction saver (friction loop) didn’t make the cut for ghosting although knots aren’t a vital part, I’ve seen a bunch of people using friction loops in canyons some home made with quick links and webbing and some from manufacturers (I believe originally designed for arborists) I’d be interested in some beta on friction loops if you’re ever looking for more topics!
When to use it?
For body rapping a 15m drop instead of doing an hour walk :)
There is a 100% chance I'd pull on the retrieval strand while abbing if I used one of these.
All canyoneers down here tie the SW CEM with 3 half-hitches, NOT 2, and find it is very hard to release, by pulling the release strand by mistake, WHEN THE LOAD STRAND IS WEIGHTED BY YOUR BODY. With 3 half-hitches, a load of 800 lbs still allows the release, whereas an equivocation hitch sticks after about 600 lbs.
Yeah, the classic situation, rock falls down, cuts rope in 3 pieces. We all have been there, right? xD
The idea of using crochet as a releasable knot should terrify anyone who's ever done crochet or knitting. Those loops come undone at the slightest provocation! You have to finish your work with an actual knot or by weaving a long enough length of the loose end back into the previous work until friction can hold it.
"Until friction can hold it"
Thats why its recommended to do at least 6 crochets before trusting it. i personally do 10
@ Adding more loops does not increase the force needed to undo a loop! The last loop will come undone as easily as the first. You could add 100 crochets and it would still be recklessly dangerous.
@@SnakebitSTI as you weight the rappel strand the whole shebang crunches down mainly on the last loop, but also on all previous loops
Sac leste (your bag as counterweight)
Damn that's scary.. America needs more half-ropes or twin ropes
Youve completely missed the point of the video
These are for when you need to rappel, dont want to leave anything behind, and dont have anchors to run your rope through
If you wrap your rope around a tree for a double strand rappel, youre gonna damage your rope and the tree once you go to retrieve your rope
@@alakazam482 wasn't meant too serious ;)
Is it a coincidence that August Hunnike(sp?) is looking for a fusible link for the flip line when you might want to quickly bail from a super sketchy tree and then this video pops up? @9:47 is an interesting idea to me because that's already a redirect idea I have been taught. Might be able to adapt it to my flipline connection with some accessory cord. Thanks for the video!
This really was a fascinating video, looking forward to more on the subject.
missed to show the MEXIKnotl, a recent, robust and versatile system.
I always just make a figure 8 knot in the middle of the rope, pull the rope over a branch, so that a
On either side of the branch is an end and clip the figure 8 to the repelling side, so that i just have to worry about clipping the correct ropeto descend. when i take it down half of the rope gets dragged across the branch but at least im safe
I wonder in wich situation one would to that crochet knot and not just use the double tube
Beal Escaper?
Tested in another video
Super good, but super scary. Id trust an equivocation hitch before the escaper
The very first knot is how I tie rowdy horses and cows
The maverick hitch would have been a great one to test in this video
Same with the jrb cinch
I would also love to see the Maverick hitch tested. I'm not sure if it really works well on a narrow host like a rappel ring.
all that work and then your rope catches on a flake :(
Why do people keep inventing new names for knots? The "half CEM" is just a sheepshank. Call it a sheepshank. The American Southwest definitely did not invent the sheepshank.
Yknow synonyms exist outside of climbing
@alakazam482 Of course, but not usually because people are claiming something as a new invention that has been used for centuries.
@thomasdalton1508 a half cem and full cem look remarkably similar. Even if the half was called a sheepshank for a long time, as a teaching tool it makes sense to give it a new name
And different disciplines use different names for the same thing
@alakazam482 I think as a teaching tool it makes sense to refer to things by their known names. A sheepshank is one of the first knots people learn. It's much easier to learn to tie a CEM (and to verify it) if you realise it is just a sheepshank with a bight through the lower loop and upper half-hitch. Call it something like a "reinforced sheepshank" and people will get the hang of it and remember it much more easily.
@@thomasdalton1508 a sheepshank is one of the first knots you learn in certain disciplines. In rock climbing you'd basically never need one, and in canyoning you'd learn the sheepshank and full CEM around the same time so it makes more sense to call them by similar names because of how similar they are. Plus looking up sheepshank, it's for shortening a rope, not for use as a releasable rappel hitch
Last
Is to be a climber akin to being an EMT/Cop. You needs gallows humor to survive?
So is Reepschnur Rappel just not a thing anyone 🤷♂️. I still use it and it’s never failed me :)
I think most climbers use the reepschnur for single line rappels.
@@Mike-B-Jackson you're missing a big point of this
This is for when you dont have bolts or any other man made way of fixing your rope. If you tie a reepschnur around a tree, you're gonna be dragging half your rope across the tree bark. That'll scar the tree and chew up your sheath
All of these systems here only have a bight of rope go across the tree or rock or whatever it is you're anchoring to
Personally, I would never use any of these sketchy releasables.
First