Carver and Hafler we're goddamn geniuses . Carver always looked for usual features in almost every product he designed. When I see one of his advertisements in a magazine where he's part of the picture look at that giant smile he has on his face. It's like he saying I know something you didn't know so here it is.
I run a Carver c4000 free app since about February 1980 when I bought it new. It has the B revision Sonic hologram board. Which I had added about a year later. All of my mid-range and upper frequency amplifiers are all made by halfler. The only equipment that I had to use industrial strength was for my subwoofers so I use several of the large QSC power light amplifiers to drive subs.
@@basspig And all I run,.. Is 2 Cubes, and a CT-7. AND 4 PEAVEY SP-2's From the 80's 😂 The only downside to the Fidelity. Is people either wanting to Buy It. OR COMPLAINING IT'S "STERILIZING" THE WILDLIFE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD 🤣 Good Stuff, just makes good stuff sound GOOD. But having your Cheap Wall Cabinet everyone did. That held all your stuff,.. and a 27" CRT. ... mine was harmon karden 😏 But 2 Cubes. Powering 2 Pairs of SP-2's. And playing an Ultradisc of Pink Floyd's TIME,.. WITH THE HOLOGRAPH !!! WHILE HAVING IT ALL 12FT FROM YOU, AND ALL ONLY SPREAD OUT ABOUT 8FT APART 😳 ... yes, kids aren't smart But you could close your eyes. ... because you had too, it's a sound pressure thing 😂 , as explained But you could literally SEE, the clocks ticking away. And reach out and Touch Them. I STILL HAVE ONE I CAUGHT 🤣🤣🤣 ... it's a collectors item 😏 Amazing stuff. And always will be 🤗 ... from a Lynnwood guy from the 70's, that has a dbx 4320 as backup too among others,.. old people need backup 😏 🖖 👍
I had a sonic hologram generator in my system 35 years back. I got some really neat effects on sound staging. Tracks like doobie brothers Black Water track. Really cool. Plus many others groups and tracks. I also have several Q sound CDs and I think it is a purer way to go if you want to experience it and not having an extra electronic device in the signal path. I found the C9 hologram generator masked the sound in areas of resolution. The circuits design etc was no where the quality and resolution say for example audio research amp and preamp. So I took it out of my system. The Q sound cds didn’t seem to have the lack of resolution I had with the C9. I still have it and miss it. After seeing this, I may just reconnect it back to have fun with it for a while.
DBX Soundfield 1a speakers include a phase-shifting crossover that accomplishes a similar effect without collapsing when you move. You can actually get up and move around the room and the soundstage is still enormous. But of course they are cheap by comparison and considered "gimmicky" by many. I guess that's why I own two sets of them.
Well explained sir. You truly are a font of knowledge and I love listening. I used to read about these sound variations and reproduction techniques in the 1970s and experimented a bit myself as did my friends. Happy days.
I've had a C9 for years. I like it best when used in "Wide Aperture" mode with "Theoretical Injection" instead of "Normal" . This seems more natural while eliminating the need to hold your head in the absolute center position to achieve the effect. Maybe because I have mine hooked up to the output of my preamp, and then going on to the power amp, I've noticed no loss of resolution.
I remember when David Hasselhoff created the original holographic sound (sound you can see by moving your head). He applied technology from his ground breaking KITT project to devise visual sound.
I'm surprised nobody has introduced an "outboard" Sonic-Holography add-on unit. One would think it would sell well and be a $$ for Carver. I know one person who has the Carver Pre-amp with SH..He likes it...but it took him a while to "find" the proper delay setting for his listening room.
I have and use a C9. That's exactly correct. Some music sounds great with the hologram on, other music, it doesn't. Even track to track. Never can tell until you try but it's only a PB away, (actually two).
Sorry, But here We go again with Microphone Placement during the Recording Process. Since there is NO Universal Method of Placing "mics"; Plus the Vast number of Different Microphones used. It will Always be "hit or miss" with a device such as Carver's . But hey, Enjoy the Ones, which Work !
You can solve the inter-aural cross-talk by using 2 rooms for your stereo, and make a cutout on the wall between them at the listening position in the shape of you sitting in your chair (profile). I admit you're kinda stuck in one position, but it's for the sound...
The lineage: Headphones, Carver Sonic Holography, Polk SDA, Bacch-SP and Ambiophonics. You should EXPERIENCE all of those to actually have a valid opinion and it's somewhat insulting to all the inventors of the aforementioned technologies to even use the word "gimmick".
Gimmick? No its not a Gimmick. That sounds directed to Bob it seems. I have a C-9 and it can add incredible life to some dead sounding material even if your not in the sweet spot so to say. Bob got the design down perfect. Other attempts I have auditioned were not the same at all. Once you use one you won't ever stop for most people that experience it. The C-9 also has more options than the built in circuits on his receivers and integrated amps.
You can move up/down or fore/aft, but any lateral movement will perturb the effect. Of course, no such system can work with 100% effectiveness. For example, the inverted and delayed left-channel signal sent out by the right channel, will not only be heard by the right ear to cancel the "shadow sound" from the left channel, but a fraction of a msec later, it will produce another "shadow sound" to the left ear.
James Plotkin I had a Carver hologram generator and it took way more than a slight movement of the head to ruin the effect. You had to move about a foot or two. Fun to play with
@@scottbrekken4898 - yep, the soundstage stability is great once you get the setup right, and the proper settings of the front panel 'trim' controls. *
Wow, there's nothing Paul McGowan doesn't know. 30 years ago when I bought a pair of Mission Argonauts, the dealer threw in, as a freebie, a Carver C9 that someone had traded in. I don't think Carver was officially sold in Oz. I tried it out with a few artists like Kate Bush, Pink Floyd and New Order. It sounded terrible. I took it out of the system and forgot about it but it's still floating around in a cupboard somewhere. To give Carver credit though, I wrote to the USA and told them I'd acquired a C9 and they posted me a copy of the manual. Meanwhile, the Argonauts are still going strong.
I know I mention him all the time, but Steve Hillages music in a good soundstage is completely holographic physically. Mentally, it’s way beyond holographs for me. Maybe I do too much LSD but god damn he is so good.
I just realised how to avoid the limitation of not be able to move even a step left/righ. Its this: just use that Effect you told on a bigger System, like on a Openair sized Pa, and voila, you have that effct, while being able to move. Well mikael Jackson could bought it for him and his companions... Not usable for the whole audience, but it would be possible
Some recordings were enhanced by using the difference signal between channels. They appeared to be entirely acoustic performances recorded with a simple crossed pair. Those recordings were so few in number my friend and I who played with it never took it beyond the experimental stage.
Millions of TVs and sound bars in the last couple of decades or so have done similar things incl. this sort of sound stage manipulating audio processing through DSP: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Retrieval_System
Great explanation! It does sound a bit like a nightmare though, as you have to keep absolutely still, otherwise, since it's all based on physics (distance/phase/timing), it won't work as intended. If I want this kind of effect I will put the headphones on and forget about reflections and time alignment etc. Good for experimenting but, for real listening conditions, no thanks!
@Fat Rat True! Like so many other things in life. There's so many ideas 'floating' in the HiFi industry over the years.. I remember back in the 90's, there was a reviewer called Jimmy Hughes. He was known in HiFi circles as an eccentric as, his idea was to positions speakers not facing the listener but, ...the wall in front! So, the listener would see the back (!) of the speakers and get _reflected sound_ rather than direct! I don't think that practice went very far...
@Fat Rat Your story (..and partly mine), sound so much like Pauls story! It seems there's a 'learning path' with youth that we all have to experience before we ''see the light''!.. ..that's why I am never critical of my grand children! Just observe them and giggle quietly... Be good Young man!
@Fat Rat Au contraire! Live music, I'll leave out amplified music for now, comes from as many points as there are performers on the stage. Listen to Beethoven's 9th, with a large orchestra and choir and there could be 60 separate point sources producing music, from an arc 50 feet wide.
@Fat Rat What's amazing about two speaker systems is how well a good speaker system can simulate a large soundstage and instrument placement therein. What they can't do is actually fool you into thinking it's live.
I've owned a carver hologram generator for decades. It can be very useful, stunning even, on some old or poorly-engineered material. The effect can be profound on new Dolby,, atmos, dbx etc. recordings. Moreover with proper setup you don't need to stay pinned in a "sweet spot" as the images in the soundstage seem to lock in place. My 2 cents.
@@alex_stanley - note that a lot of folks have spent a lot of money searching for the will of the (audio) wisp. Have to admit, I've heard carver equipment outperform expensive systems that are heralded as orders of magnitude "better." *
I agree with your latter statement in that everything is a gimmick. Tubes, wires, transistors, circuits etc. are ALL artificial "gimmicks". Anything that is not a live performance is an artificial construct. For purists, the mix down engineer, for some reason, has final say on how the recording should sound. I couldn't disagree more. A well-tuned system utilizing stacks of processors can make alot of ordinary recordings actually sound good. IMHO. Is such a system "pure"? Obviously not ...because there is no such thing ....just artificial constructs.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Amused to death is a truely great album. I always appreciate the references to good music among these videos
Wow just started streaming it on Qobuz, impressive so far
Carver and Hafler we're goddamn geniuses . Carver always looked for usual features in almost every product he designed. When I see one of his advertisements in a magazine where he's part of the picture look at that giant smile he has on his face. It's like he saying I know something you didn't know so here it is.
And David Blackmer.
I run a Carver c4000 free app since about February 1980 when I bought it new. It has the B revision Sonic hologram board. Which I had added about a year later. All of my mid-range and upper frequency amplifiers are all made by halfler. The only equipment that I had to use industrial strength was for my subwoofers so I use several of the large QSC power light amplifiers to drive subs.
@@basspig
And all I run,..
Is 2 Cubes, and a CT-7.
AND 4 PEAVEY SP-2's From the 80's 😂
The only downside to the Fidelity.
Is people either wanting to Buy It.
OR COMPLAINING IT'S "STERILIZING" THE WILDLIFE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD 🤣
Good Stuff, just makes good stuff sound GOOD.
But having your Cheap Wall Cabinet everyone did. That held all your stuff,.. and a 27" CRT.
... mine was harmon karden 😏
But 2 Cubes.
Powering 2 Pairs of SP-2's.
And playing an Ultradisc of Pink Floyd's TIME,.. WITH THE HOLOGRAPH !!!
WHILE HAVING IT ALL 12FT FROM YOU, AND ALL ONLY SPREAD OUT ABOUT 8FT APART 😳
... yes, kids aren't smart
But you could close your eyes.
... because you had too, it's a sound pressure thing 😂 , as explained
But you could literally SEE, the clocks ticking away. And reach out and Touch Them.
I STILL HAVE ONE I CAUGHT 🤣🤣🤣
... it's a collectors item 😏
Amazing stuff.
And always will be 🤗
... from a Lynnwood guy from the 70's, that has a dbx 4320 as backup too among others,..
old people need backup 😏 🖖 👍
I had a sonic hologram generator in my system 35 years back. I got some really neat effects on sound staging. Tracks like doobie brothers Black Water track. Really cool. Plus many others groups and tracks. I also have several Q sound CDs and I think it is a purer way to go if you want to experience it and not having an extra electronic device in the signal path. I found the C9 hologram generator masked the sound in areas of resolution. The circuits design etc was no where the quality and resolution say for example audio research amp and preamp. So I took it out of my system. The Q sound cds didn’t seem to have the lack of resolution I had with the C9. I still have it and miss it. After seeing this, I may just reconnect it back to have fun with it for a while.
Add a good EQ and carefully adjust each frequency. As you match the mix down of the original recording the results can be startling. Good luck!
DBX Soundfield 1a speakers include a phase-shifting crossover that accomplishes a similar effect without collapsing when you move. You can actually get up and move around the room and the soundstage is still enormous. But of course they are cheap by comparison and considered "gimmicky" by many. I guess that's why I own two sets of them.
Well explained sir. You truly are a font of knowledge and I love listening. I used to read about these sound variations and reproduction techniques in the 1970s and experimented a bit myself as did my friends. Happy days.
I found this accidentally and I'm honestly fascinated by it as a concept.
I have some crafting to do.
People must not forget Bob Carver with his sonic holography amps of the 80s.
Love the info, so cool to learn the technical aspects of how sound engineering works. Thank you Paul, God bless.
I've had a C9 for years. I like it best when used in "Wide Aperture" mode with "Theoretical Injection" instead of "Normal" . This seems more natural while eliminating the need to hold your head in the absolute center position to achieve the effect. Maybe because I have mine hooked up to the output of my preamp, and then going on to the power amp, I've noticed no loss of resolution.
I remember when David Hasselhoff created the original holographic sound (sound you can see by moving your head). He applied technology from his ground breaking KITT project to devise visual sound.
Again learned a bunch. Before you explained it I thought snake oil. I don't want it, but neat to know.
I'm surprised nobody has introduced an "outboard" Sonic-Holography add-on unit. One would think it would sell well and be a $$ for Carver. I know one person who has the Carver Pre-amp with SH..He likes it...but it took him a while to "find" the proper delay setting for his listening room.
Meanwhile people with headphones are trying to add crossfeed, to recreate the effect people with speakers are trying to eliminate...
If i am not mistaken the new Polk Audio Legend L800 do that effect 🔊🎶🎼.
I have and use a C9. That's exactly correct. Some music sounds great with the hologram on, other music, it doesn't. Even track to track. Never can tell until you try but it's only a PB away, (actually two).
Isn't this the same concept that is present with the Polk SDA Legend series speakers?
Sorry, But here We go again with Microphone Placement during the Recording Process. Since there is NO Universal Method of Placing "mics"; Plus the Vast number of Different Microphones used. It will Always be "hit or miss" with a device such as Carver's . But hey, Enjoy the Ones, which Work !
Maybe get some good Open Baffle speakers to get a good sound stage. If you have the space and can put up with them...
Given the ever increasing market for bluetooth speakers, have you ever considered a BT version of your Acoustic Spatial Generator?
You can solve the inter-aural cross-talk by using 2 rooms for your stereo, and make a cutout on the wall between them at the listening position in the shape of you sitting in your chair (profile). I admit you're kinda stuck in one position, but it's for the sound...
The lineage: Headphones, Carver Sonic Holography, Polk SDA, Bacch-SP and Ambiophonics. You should EXPERIENCE all of those to actually have a valid opinion and it's somewhat insulting to all the inventors of the aforementioned technologies to even use the word "gimmick".
Agreed! My thought exactly. Also, David Blackmer's dbx Soundfield 1a.
Gimmick? No its not a Gimmick. That sounds directed to Bob it seems. I have a C-9 and it can add incredible life to some dead sounding material even if your not in the sweet spot so to say. Bob got the design down perfect. Other attempts I have auditioned were not the same at all. Once you use one you won't ever stop for most people that experience it. The C-9 also has more options than the built in circuits on his receivers and integrated amps.
If a slight movement of our heads makes dramatic changes to the stereo image, I say, "nope."
Love my Maggies but that is one of the things I deal with. I don't mind though! lol
You can move up/down or fore/aft, but any lateral movement will perturb the effect.
Of course, no such system can work with 100% effectiveness. For example, the inverted and delayed left-channel signal sent out by the right channel, will not only be heard by the right ear to cancel the "shadow sound" from the left channel, but a fraction of a msec later, it will produce another "shadow sound" to the left ear.
@@scottyo64 That's exactly what came to my mind, electrostatic and magnetostatic speakers. Same issue.
Great mid and high frequency response though.
James Plotkin I had a Carver hologram generator and it took way more than a slight movement of the head to ruin the effect. You had to move about a foot or two. Fun to play with
@@scottbrekken4898 - yep, the soundstage stability is great once you get the setup right, and the proper settings of the front panel 'trim' controls.
*
If eliminating cross talk can improve the image and soundstage, why doesn't open back headphones have a big giant soundstage all around your head?
Wow, there's nothing Paul McGowan doesn't know. 30 years ago when I bought a pair of Mission Argonauts, the dealer threw in, as a freebie, a Carver C9 that someone had traded in. I don't think Carver was officially sold in Oz. I tried it out with a few artists like Kate Bush, Pink Floyd and New Order. It sounded terrible. I took it out of the system and forgot about it but it's still floating around in a cupboard somewhere. To give Carver credit though, I wrote to the USA and told them I'd acquired a C9 and they posted me a copy of the manual. Meanwhile, the Argonauts are still going strong.
Thanks for explaining how Q sound works
I know I mention him all the time, but Steve Hillages music in a good soundstage is completely holographic physically. Mentally, it’s way beyond holographs for me. Maybe I do too much LSD but god damn he is so good.
Fat Rat (; you know sun ra? Imagine what him, Zappa, etc etc etc would do to a kids brain...
Fat Rat poetry brought to you in technicolor...
Fat Rat That is the only recording of the Ikettes I enjoy. Ironic that they didn’t even want to be credited!
Fat Rat LOL that’s how they did that insane middle section from Montana!!!
Fat Rat yeah who could’ve guessed in ‘73 that people would generally stop flossing? Can’t go without wiping your ass though, you are correct.
I just realised how to avoid the limitation of not be able to move even a step left/righ. Its this: just use that Effect you told on a bigger System, like on a Openair sized Pa, and voila, you have that effct, while being able to move. Well mikael Jackson could bought it for him and his companions... Not usable for the whole audience, but it would be possible
The most advanced holograms are quantum they stop pollution, when placed on speakers.
I once owned a Dynaco Dynaquad device which made some kind of matrix 4-channel effect from a stereo source. Didn't like it much.
Some recordings were enhanced by using the difference signal between channels. They appeared to be entirely acoustic performances recorded with a simple crossed pair. Those recordings were so few in number my friend and I who played with it never took it beyond the experimental stage.
Can we say sonic holography is like 3D sound?
Millions of TVs and sound bars in the last couple of decades or so have done similar things incl. this sort of sound stage manipulating audio processing through DSP: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Retrieval_System
I think the 3D sound of Dolby Atmos works similarly, using phase shifting to create the illusion of sound coming from certain directions.
Great explanation!
It does sound a bit like a nightmare though, as you have to keep absolutely still, otherwise, since it's all based on physics (distance/phase/timing), it won't work as intended.
If I want this kind of effect I will put the headphones on and forget about reflections and time alignment etc. Good for experimenting but, for real listening conditions, no thanks!
@Fat Rat
True! Like so many other things in life. There's so many ideas 'floating' in the HiFi industry over the years.. I remember back in the 90's, there was a reviewer called Jimmy Hughes.
He was known in HiFi circles as an eccentric as, his idea was to positions speakers not facing the listener but, ...the wall in front! So, the listener would see the back (!) of the speakers and get _reflected sound_ rather than direct! I don't think that practice went very far...
@Fat Rat
Yep!!.. same path here. Had JBLs at the time and 80% of the sound was below 100 Hz!.. *Those were the days* dear *FAT rat* !
@Fat Rat
Your story (..and partly mine), sound so much like Pauls story! It seems there's a 'learning path' with youth that we all have to experience before we ''see the light''!..
..that's why I am never critical of my grand children! Just observe them and giggle quietly... Be good Young man!
So, if I understand this correctly, you take away the ear's natural way of hearing/locating a sound and this makes things better?!
@Fat Rat Au contraire! Live music, I'll leave out amplified music for now, comes from as many points as there are performers on the stage. Listen to Beethoven's 9th, with a large orchestra and choir and there could be 60 separate point sources producing music, from an arc 50 feet wide.
@Fat Rat What's amazing about two speaker systems is how well a good speaker system can simulate a large soundstage and instrument placement therein. What they can't do is actually fool you into thinking it's live.
I would happily buy it for $1 how can I contact you?
Two ears, infinite possibilities!
@Fat Rat My motto is"Let me take care of your depression"!
I think the technology has more potential for musical instruments than in reproduction as Roger Waters so ably demonstrated.
I was thinking the same thing. Something like this in the modular synthesis world would be a lot of fun to play with!
I've owned a carver hologram generator for decades. It can be very useful, stunning even, on some old or poorly-engineered material. The effect can be profound on new Dolby,, atmos, dbx etc. recordings.
Moreover with proper setup you don't need to stay pinned in a "sweet spot" as the images in the soundstage seem to lock in place. My 2 cents.
Az Usmb I had it. Just a gimmick.
The only Carver I kept was the tx-11 tuner.
@@edthefirst2859 - Actually, everything is a gimmick if you choose to look at it that way. Lol.
@@alex_stanley - note that a lot of folks have spent a lot of money searching for the will of the (audio) wisp.
Have to admit, I've heard carver equipment outperform expensive systems that are heralded as orders of magnitude "better."
*
I agree with your latter statement in that everything is a gimmick. Tubes, wires, transistors, circuits etc. are ALL artificial "gimmicks". Anything that is not a live performance is an artificial construct. For purists, the mix down engineer, for some reason, has final say on how the recording should sound. I couldn't disagree more. A well-tuned system utilizing stacks of processors can make alot of ordinary recordings actually sound good. IMHO. Is such a system "pure"? Obviously not ...because there is no such thing ....just artificial constructs.
Paul you don’t know what you are talking about.