What a great text and I appreciate that Dr Ehrman discusses it philosophically, elucidating the theological concepts with interest. Fans of eastern "self realization" teachings tend to especially enjoy the Gospel of Thomas. @42:00 regarding whether such teachings could've been circulating in the area at the time of Jesus, consider that King Ashoka sent out thousands of Buddhist missionaries in the 3rd century BC to places such as Antioch. Not to mention, if there is indeed some kind of underlying realization regarding the nature of our own consciousness, then it wouldn't be limited to geographical or cultural constraints. It would be evident to anyone through intense meditation or contemplation.
There was a carved wooden Buddha found in Egypt, 2nd or 3rd CE. The wood was a native to Egypt as well. Texts from that period also mention Buddhist teachers.
I'm a bit hazy on the subject but I read once that in the reign of the emperor Augustus(contemporary of Jesus) as part of a delegation from an Indian king, either a Hindu or Buddhist ascetic, set himself alight, to prove the superiority of the spiritual over the material and that death was not to be feared.
The caves round about Qumran may have been where the intense meditation was happening. It's interesting to consider the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered barely a year after the Nag Hammadi Library. Carl Jung had a name for this sort of thing, it's called synchronicity. The Gnostic wisdom in the Gospel of Thomas is entirely compatible with Buddha Dharma, in my opinion.
I have so much respect for Dr. Ehrman so it was very reassuring to hear him say that he believes the Gospel of Thomas used its own sources, and that it wasn't reliant on Matthew and Luke. It's become very trendy in the past couple of years to state unequivocally that Thomas used Matthew and Luke. However, I tend to agree with Helmut Koester's treatment of the Gospel of Thomas in his book Ancient Christian Gospels. It's really excellent for those that haven't read it yet.
I find it interesting how some regard Paul's writings as being antithetical to gnostic thought. However, there are some good arguments that Paul's writings are consistent with gnostic thought.
@@KarmasAB123 i think you are missing the commenter’s point, which is that the New Testament wasn’t written yet. As in the stories about the people in the New Testament are written after the supposed events happened…
I remember seeing a TV program about it in the late sixties. I got the impression that it was the earliest Gospel, a bit like what I now know as Q, but I knew nothing then.
To me it seems the GoT was considered a slippery slope and was rejected because if one accepts the teachings in it, that might open the door to considering other gnostic gospels plausible.
So Judus Didymus Thomas was quite possibly the twin of Jesus the Messiah. In his distraught state having lost his twin brother in a horrific crucifixion, deceived the Roman authorities by (once again, because all twins do this) pretending to be a person they thought they crucified. That makes more sense to me than a person rising from the dead.
@@dianadeejarvis7074 Good point. Another thought is since siblings many times look and sound similar, Jesus and Thomas were very much alike. How many times did people confuse me with my brother, 3 years older? Too many to count. Thomas could be a sibling born after Jesus and nothing was written about him (like many younger siblings, lol)
If the G of Thomas opens w/ "these are the sayings of the 'living Jesus'", would that not mean (at least implicitly) that the resurrection of Jesus is presumed despite the gospel being merely a "sayings" gospel?
Not all early Christians as I understand it, believed in the resurrection. I don't know if this writer of the Gospel of Thomas was one of those or not. I'm not a scholar.
My problem with all the gospels is that the goal is to have eternal life. Who the hell would want to live for eternity? Why can't we just live this life to the fullest without worrying about eternity? Like going to Mars and not saving the earth.
yes, always felt a bit odd .... It sure help with dealing with grief and loss ... religion is helpful ... imagining loved ones in Happy Hunting grounds ... but the happy hunting ground for ever would be hideous
this is a great episode. elaine pagels' book on the gospel of thomas is also pretty good and goes into the sayings in a lot of detail. but her book also goes in weird directions at points lol
There is one saying in Mathew and Thomas which always puzzled and irritated me until I realized it was probably mistranslated. It's ""Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head" (Mathew 8:20, Thomas 86). Why Jesus would whine about his living conditions, while giving himself this exaled title "the Son of Man"? Jesus, get a grip on yourself, this is pathetic! Once you get rid of the capital letters and translate "son of man=a human" it actually starts to make sense... I don't know if the Coptic text encourages this translation, but I have found it in interpretations of G o T (where it fits nicely in the prevailing theme), not so much in G o M.
The Nag Hamadi Text should not be referred to as the “Gnostic gospels” as the religious handlers labeled it diagnostic to scare away truly believers in Christ from reading it as anything labeled Gnostic is considered a heresy. I am not a Christian, but I would look at events like the uncovering of scrolls in 1888, 1945 as these scrolls as revelation, a higher power’s way of revealing source material more believable than those being canonized to guide people into the light of Christ directly.
There is no canon conspiracy. There are no words of god either. There is what was accepted and what was not. Gnosticism was not accepted, thus its texts were not as copied, thus it did not survive as a sect. You don’t need a conspiracy to keep out gospels that no one wants anyway.
Some Bible critics say the text has been rewritten more times than a group project with no one taking notes-so much editing, it’s practically a divine version of ’Who’s on First?’' It's full of variations, omissions, and some added bits that even the Dead Sea Scrolls would have trouble deciphering!
2nd century thought. He’s just saying that, theologically, it’s similar to 2nd century stuff and that nothing in the 1st century looks like this. Meaning it was written in the 2nd century and not the 1st.
Is there a significance to the 3rd day Jesus being raised. Why not a week, a month, a year, or several years? Is there any significance to that 3rd day. Couldn't Jesus being the alleged omnipotent God just do his business in an instant?
The story of Jonah spending three days inside the whale, I guess, which was interpreted as foreshadowing (or even prophecy?) of Jesus death and ressurection.
For context, 1&2 Timothy, 2 Peter, and the Epistles to Titus and of John, were all written around 100-110, and John 90-110, so the Gospel of Thomas only missed the boat by about 10-20 years. Had it different theology, it would probably occupy a place like Infancy James; non-canonical yet very influential. But no one ever liked the gnostics, so nuts to Thomas.
No, that would mean that Joseph of Arimathea was named by non-Christian sources as a notable in his field, as Josephus mentions Jesus of Nazareth. We have no body or accepted burial site, but where is Alexander the Great’s body? Apollonius of Tiana is always held up as another miracle worker, contemporaneous with Jesus, but is the evidence for his existence more convincing than that for Jesus? We have more evidence for the existence of Jesus than for many other ancients whose existence people have no trouble accepting. Son of god, resurrected? Absolutely not. But he definitely lived, ministered, and was crucified by the Romans. To say otherwise belies either an ignorance of the sources, or a change in criteria especially for Jesus. So, are you ignorant of the writings of Josephus, or are you demanding more proof for Jesus’ existence than that required of other ancient figures?
Doesn't Gospel of Thomas has some hints of panentheism? Then I don t think is the same as other gnostics, there is a saying that you can find Jesus by splitting a wood and you will find him there, lift up a stone and there is also. I doubt gnostics would have said that God or spirit in general can be found in material world since is evil.
Maybe what we see as the material world isn’t actually material. If Jesus said the Kingdom of God is with you, then being able access that would completely alter your perception of reality. I think this may be the idea of consciousness being beyond the trappings of the human body. That we’re all made of the same stuff, even rocks and trees. That what we see as human beings in this world is an illusion.
Dr Ehrman, Dr James David Audlin once verbally called on other scholars (he mentioned you by name) to examine his new discovery of an ostensible Diary written by Pilate after getting fired by the Legate of Syria-if it is authentic, then The Gospel of Thomas was written within 4 years after the death of the Historical Jesus
Thomas just looked a lot like Jesus, it’s that simple, they looked similar, but were not related. And he was rare in that he could read & write at that time. Gospel of Thomas is too much like Buddhism to be accepted by Christianity.
The quote from The Gospel of Thomas about "stripping of your clothes and stomping on them" reminds me of a song: ua-cam.com/video/_o1Y9IYPvug/v-deo.html
Thomas ISN'T a gnostic text ... At least not in the way that "gnostic" is typically understood with respect to the study of the early "christianities" ... that's my opinion for whatever it's worth...lol... ✌🏽❤️
I agree. With John not having a single parable in it while Thomas does, I think Thomas has more credibility to be in the cannon. Jesus is presented as a different person in John.
You know he donates everything from the channel and classes to charity. He makes his money as an author and by giving speeches on his scholarship. It is a bit annoying, but it’s not his profit that motivates it.
We must remember, Jesus inherited the earth, and also everything his Father owns. The earth is physical. Emphasis is on the spiritual words Jesus spoke. John 6:63 John 12:44-50
@ “Maybe Q”? maybe. It sounds like it is still debatable whether Thomas could be Q, or a part of Q. The 400 BC Philosophies, Stoicism for example, Proverbs for another example are famous for containing lists of quotes that offer a pithy words of wisdom. So the Gospel of Thomas is in line with the temple books of the age. Today we have the self help book which is just a variation of the same literature tradition. Thomas Jefferson did something similar when he cut and pasted the New Testament in the 1700’s For example: “The greater the difficulty, the more glory in surmounting it. Skillful pilots gain their reputation from storms and tempests.” - Epictetus
@ You can do an experiment if you like with Thomas. Hypothesis: Thomas was Q or a part of Q. Experiment: Read a saying in Thomas and match it up to known Gospel or Pauls writings. You can use chat GPT for this task, it is easier to get useful answers if you break it down into a detailed dialog. The more accurate detail you ask it the more accurate it’s results. Treat it like a librarians, no judgement of what it says. It is not really designed to argue and that will just send it into a stonewalling loop.
@ Me: Cross reference 10 random Thomas saying with 500 stoicism quotes and see if there are any matches. Reduce the number of Thomas or stoic quotes if the computation load is too high or if the matches exceeds 10. ChatGPT: Upon comparing 10 randomly selected sayings from the Gospel of Thomas with a curated list of Stoic quotes, several thematic parallels emerge. Here are some notable comparisons: 1. Seeking and Finding: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 2: “Jesus said, ‘Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All.’”  • Epictetus: “First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.”  • Comparison: Both emphasize the importance of persistent seeking and self-determination in the pursuit of truth and personal growth. 2. Inner Kingdom: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 3: “Jesus said, ‘…the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known…’”  • Marcus Aurelius: “He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.”  • Comparison: Both suggest that understanding one’s inner self leads to a harmonious relationship with the broader universe or kingdom. 3. Impermanence of the World: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 11: “Jesus said, ‘This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away…’”  • Seneca: “What fortune has made yours is not your own.”  • Comparison: Both reflect on the transient nature of worldly possessions and states, urging detachment. 4. Self-Mastery: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 70: “Jesus said, ‘If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you…’”  • Epictetus: “No man is free who is not master of himself.”  • Comparison: Both highlight the importance of inner resources and self-control in achieving freedom and salvation. 5. Simplicity and Contentment: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 36: “Jesus said, ‘Do not be concerned from morning until evening and from evening until morning about what you will wear.’”  • Seneca: “It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor.”  • Comparison: Both advise against excessive concern for material needs, promoting simplicity and contentment. 6. Facing Adversity: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 68: “Jesus said, ‘Blessed are you when you are hated and persecuted…’”  • Epictetus: “Difficulties are things that show a person what they are.”  • Comparison: Both recognize the value of enduring hardships as a means of personal revelation and growth. 7. Impermanence of Life: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 59: “Jesus said, ‘Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see him, and you will be unable to see.’”  • Marcus Aurelius: “Do not act as if you were going to live ten thousand years. Death hangs over you. While you live, while it is in your power, be good.”  • Comparison: Both encourage mindfulness of life’s brevity to inspire virtuous living. 8. Value of Solitude: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 49: “Jesus said, ‘Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom…’”  • Seneca: “Nothing, to my way of thinking, is a better proof of a well-ordered mind than a man’s ability to stop just where he is and pass some time in his own company.”  • Comparison: Both praise solitude as a state conducive to inner discovery and peace. 9. Inner Light: • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 24: “His disciples said, ‘Show us the place where you are, since it is necessary for us to seek it.’ He said to them, ‘Whoever has ears, let him hear. There is light within a man of light, and he lights up the whole world. If he does not shine, he is darkness.’” - This is where the AI stops according to my instructions. From this I propose a new hypothesis; That sayings Thomas have a root in Greco-Roman pagan tradition and in this limited case Stoacism.
That's a little silly. We don't and shouldn't take any of the gospels "at face value," especially given how many of them make false authorial claims. There's plenty of debate among scholars about the authorship date of this one, but I don't think anyone seriously proposes it's older than the 60s CE (and most place it much later).
@@normative All "scholars" dating of all gospels is pure guess work and says more about their prejudices than anything based any actual facts. Gospels can just be dated 33 AD - 180 AD with maybe P52 of John to 125 AD.
@@marksolum1794”pure guesswork” is a pretty derisive way to refer to the life’s work of many impeccable scholars. These aren’t guesses, they are estimates made by looking at historical anachronisms and textual dependencies between different books. Mark is the first Gospel, John is the last, it’s been settled, and not by guessing.
Discovering the Nag Hammadi texts must have been quite jar-ring.
I see what you did there
What a great text and I appreciate that Dr Ehrman discusses it philosophically, elucidating the theological concepts with interest. Fans of eastern "self realization" teachings tend to especially enjoy the Gospel of Thomas. @42:00 regarding whether such teachings could've been circulating in the area at the time of Jesus, consider that King Ashoka sent out thousands of Buddhist missionaries in the 3rd century BC to places such as Antioch. Not to mention, if there is indeed some kind of underlying realization regarding the nature of our own consciousness, then it wouldn't be limited to geographical or cultural constraints. It would be evident to anyone through intense meditation or contemplation.
There was a carved wooden Buddha found in Egypt, 2nd or 3rd CE. The wood was a native to Egypt as well. Texts from that period also mention Buddhist teachers.
I'm a bit hazy on the subject but I read once that in the reign of the emperor Augustus(contemporary of Jesus) as part of a delegation from an Indian king, either a Hindu or Buddhist ascetic, set himself alight, to prove the superiority of the spiritual over the material and that death was not to be feared.
@@michaeltelson9798 Namo Buddhaya, dharma always wins.
The caves round about Qumran may have been where the intense meditation was happening. It's interesting to consider the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered barely a year after the Nag Hammadi Library. Carl Jung had a name for this sort of thing, it's called synchronicity. The Gnostic wisdom in the Gospel of Thomas is entirely compatible with Buddha Dharma, in my opinion.
I have so much respect for Dr. Ehrman so it was very reassuring to hear him say that he believes the Gospel of Thomas used its own sources, and that it wasn't reliant on Matthew and Luke. It's become very trendy in the past couple of years to state unequivocally that Thomas used Matthew and Luke. However, I tend to agree with Helmut Koester's treatment of the Gospel of Thomas in his book Ancient Christian Gospels. It's really excellent for those that haven't read it yet.
Can't wait for Bart's next book! I've recently bought a few and read them chronologically. Really great stuff.
I am glad Bart is back!
I find it interesting how some regard Paul's writings as being antithetical to gnostic thought. However, there are some good arguments that Paul's writings are consistent with gnostic thought.
Не знаю языка, но смотрю видео с переводом от нейросети.
Спасибо большое за интересные темы!
Nobody in the bible had a bible
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Well technically, many of them had access to Jewish scripture (Old Testament).
Yeah, they did. The Library of Alexandria
Even if they did, the literacy rate was low.
@@KarmasAB123 i think you are missing the commenter’s point, which is that the New Testament wasn’t written yet. As in the stories about the people in the New Testament are written after the supposed events happened…
I remember seeing a TV program about it in the late sixties. I got the impression that it was the earliest Gospel, a bit like what I now know as Q, but I knew nothing then.
To me it seems the GoT was considered a slippery slope and was rejected because if one accepts the teachings in it, that might open the door to considering other gnostic gospels plausible.
Finally. Thank you
Thank you for the sharing!
So Judus Didymus Thomas was quite possibly the twin of Jesus the Messiah. In his distraught state having lost his twin brother in a horrific crucifixion, deceived the Roman authorities by (once again, because all twins do this) pretending to be a person they thought they crucified.
That makes more sense to me than a person rising from the dead.
Wouldn't everyone else say "nice try, twin of the dead guy"?
The nativity narratives mention only one baby, not twins.
@@dianadeejarvis7074 Good point. Another thought is since siblings many times look and sound similar, Jesus and Thomas were very much alike. How many times did people confuse me with my brother, 3 years older? Too many to count. Thomas could be a sibling born after Jesus and nothing was written about him (like many younger siblings, lol)
had to reboot my memories of Jesus Seminar.. good stuff!
Thank you
Thanks for the video.
Well done.
If the G of Thomas opens w/ "these are the sayings of the 'living Jesus'", would that not mean (at least implicitly) that the resurrection of Jesus is presumed despite the gospel being merely a "sayings" gospel?
Not all early Christians as I understand it, believed in the resurrection. I don't know if this writer of the Gospel of Thomas was one of those or not. I'm not a scholar.
@markadams7046 yes, ty for your comment
Not necessarily, it could be the style of writing back then.
@kristimiller3234 yes, ty for your comment
Wouldn’t it just mean “stuff he said when he was alive”?
My problem with all the gospels is that the goal is to have eternal life. Who the hell would want to live for eternity? Why can't we just live this life to the fullest without worrying about eternity? Like going to Mars and not saving the earth.
yes, always felt a bit odd .... It sure help with dealing with grief and loss ... religion is helpful ... imagining loved ones in Happy Hunting grounds ... but the happy hunting ground for ever would be hideous
Bart welcome back.
this is a great episode. elaine pagels' book on the gospel of thomas is also pretty good and goes into the sayings in a lot of detail. but her book also goes in weird directions at points lol
There is one saying in Mathew and Thomas which always puzzled and irritated me until I realized it was probably mistranslated. It's ""Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head" (Mathew 8:20, Thomas 86). Why Jesus would whine about his living conditions, while giving himself this exaled title "the Son of Man"? Jesus, get a grip on yourself, this is pathetic!
Once you get rid of the capital letters and translate "son of man=a human" it actually starts to make sense... I don't know if the Coptic text encourages this translation, but I have found it in interpretations of G o T (where it fits nicely in the prevailing theme), not so much in G o M.
The Nag Hamadi Text should not be referred to as the “Gnostic gospels” as the religious handlers labeled it diagnostic to scare away truly believers in Christ from reading it as anything labeled Gnostic is considered a heresy.
I am not a Christian, but I would look at events like the uncovering of scrolls in 1888, 1945 as these scrolls as revelation, a higher power’s way of revealing source material more believable than those being canonized to guide people into the light of Christ directly.
Heresy
@ says who?
There is no canon conspiracy. There are no words of god either. There is what was accepted and what was not. Gnosticism was not accepted, thus its texts were not as copied, thus it did not survive as a sect. You don’t need a conspiracy to keep out gospels that no one wants anyway.
I’d pay that for a class on biblical Greek…
Some Bible critics say the text has been rewritten more times than a group project with no one taking notes-so much editing, it’s practically a divine version of ’Who’s on First?’'
It's full of variations, omissions, and some added bits that even the Dead Sea Scrolls would have trouble deciphering!
So if the theology of the Gospel of Thomas is not derived from any 1st century Jewish thought, where did it come from?
2nd century thought. He’s just saying that, theologically, it’s similar to 2nd century stuff and that nothing in the 1st century looks like this. Meaning it was written in the 2nd century and not the 1st.
how was cruise?
44:21 Why does Megan pronouce Sanhedrin like that?
Is there a significance to the 3rd day Jesus being raised. Why not a week, a month, a year, or several years? Is there any significance to that 3rd day. Couldn't Jesus being the alleged omnipotent God just do his business in an instant?
The story of Jonah spending three days inside the whale, I guess, which was interpreted as foreshadowing (or even prophecy?) of Jesus death and ressurection.
Did the Desert Fathers use thomas?
👏🙂
Well, Herod did have a son...
For context, 1&2 Timothy, 2 Peter, and the Epistles to Titus and of John, were all written around 100-110, and John 90-110, so the Gospel of Thomas only missed the boat by about 10-20 years. Had it different theology, it would probably occupy a place like Infancy James; non-canonical yet very influential. But no one ever liked the gnostics, so nuts to Thomas.
So we have exactly as much evidence for J of A as for J of N
No, that would mean that Joseph of Arimathea was named by non-Christian sources as a notable in his field, as Josephus mentions Jesus of Nazareth. We have no body or accepted burial site, but where is Alexander the Great’s body? Apollonius of Tiana is always held up as another miracle worker, contemporaneous with Jesus, but is the evidence for his existence more convincing than that for Jesus? We have more evidence for the existence of Jesus than for many other ancients whose existence people have no trouble accepting.
Son of god, resurrected? Absolutely not. But he definitely lived, ministered, and was crucified by the Romans. To say otherwise belies either an ignorance of the sources, or a change in criteria especially for Jesus. So, are you ignorant of the writings of Josephus, or are you demanding more proof for Jesus’ existence than that required of other ancient figures?
Doesn't Gospel of Thomas has some hints of panentheism? Then I don t think is the same as other gnostics, there is a saying that you can find Jesus by splitting a wood and you will find him there, lift up a stone and there is also. I doubt gnostics would have said that God or spirit in general can be found in material world since is evil.
It has elements of monism, not sharp dualism as the usual gnostic stuff
Maybe what we see as the material world isn’t actually material. If Jesus said the Kingdom of God is with you, then being able access that would completely alter your perception of reality. I think this may be the idea of consciousness being beyond the trappings of the human body. That we’re all made of the same stuff, even rocks and trees. That what we see as human beings in this world is an illusion.
Dr Ehrman, Dr James David Audlin once verbally called on other scholars (he mentioned you by name) to examine his new discovery of an ostensible Diary written by Pilate after getting fired by the Legate of Syria-if it is authentic, then The Gospel of Thomas was written within 4 years after the death of the Historical Jesus
Worth looking into.
I think he already did this 3 months ago.
ua-cam.com/video/UpolBnz8pTI/v-deo.htmlsi=9cnPTOr6j0TVfya8
What if Jesus was an active "Zorro"-like rebel at night, and a prophet speaking in code during the day? No wonder he was grabbing attention.
Thomas just looked a lot like Jesus, it’s that simple, they looked similar, but were not related. And he was rare in that he could read & write at that time.
Gospel of Thomas is too much like Buddhism to be accepted by Christianity.
Find these videos fascinating. Please note that the email that arrived in my inbox just now -- well, none of the links work. F.Y.I.
The quote from The Gospel of Thomas about "stripping of your clothes and stomping on them" reminds me of a song: ua-cam.com/video/_o1Y9IYPvug/v-deo.html
Gnosticism sounds like Christian Scientology
I was just thinking it sounds like Christian Buddhism but I can see your assessment too.
Except they probably didn't shun and blackmail people.
IMO Thomas should be in the cannon and not John. John has no parables and John's Jesus talks about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. CREEPY!
I love this channel but really bs academy? Am I the only one who thinks this is a great name?
What do u mean bs academy?
@@Chrisntazbsa for biblical studies academy, so if you only spell out academy it’s bs academy. 🫣
It stands for Biblical Studies. But I did also think about the BS.@@Chrisntaz
Haha haha eh eh um um. Exhausting to listen.
Thomas ISN'T a gnostic text ... At least not in the way that "gnostic" is typically understood with respect to the study of the early "christianities" ... that's my opinion for whatever it's worth...lol... ✌🏽❤️
I agree. With John not having a single parable in it while Thomas does, I think Thomas has more credibility to be in the cannon. Jesus is presented as a different person in John.
Need to get a real job!😂
Bart is so commercial.
You know he donates everything from the channel and classes to charity. He makes his money as an author and by giving speeches on his scholarship. It is a bit annoying, but it’s not his profit that motivates it.
We must remember, Jesus inherited the earth, and also everything his Father owns. The earth is physical. Emphasis is on the spiritual words Jesus spoke. John 6:63
John 12:44-50
Why isn’t Thomas the Gospel, believed to be a source of Mathew? That seems more logical to me.
Interesting idea. I wonder if they have done any algorithm comparisons of the two texts?
Maybe it's Q
@ “Maybe Q”? maybe. It sounds like it is still debatable whether Thomas could be Q, or a part of Q.
The 400 BC Philosophies, Stoicism for example, Proverbs for another example are famous for containing lists of quotes that offer a pithy words of wisdom.
So the Gospel of Thomas is in line with the temple books of the age. Today we have the self help book which is just a variation of the same literature tradition. Thomas Jefferson did something similar when he cut and pasted the New Testament in the 1700’s
For example: “The greater the difficulty, the more glory in surmounting it. Skillful pilots gain their reputation from storms and tempests.” - Epictetus
@ You can do an experiment if you like with Thomas. Hypothesis: Thomas was Q or a part of Q. Experiment: Read a saying in Thomas and match it up to known Gospel or Pauls writings. You can use chat GPT for this task, it is easier to get useful answers if you break it down into a detailed dialog. The more accurate detail you ask it the more accurate it’s results. Treat it like a librarians, no judgement of what it says. It is not really designed to argue and that will just send it into a stonewalling loop.
@
Me:
Cross reference 10 random Thomas saying with 500 stoicism quotes and see if there are any matches.
Reduce the number of Thomas or stoic quotes if the computation load is too high or if the matches exceeds 10.
ChatGPT:
Upon comparing 10 randomly selected sayings from the Gospel of Thomas with a curated list of Stoic quotes, several thematic parallels emerge. Here are some notable comparisons:
1. Seeking and Finding:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 2:
“Jesus said, ‘Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All.’” 
• Epictetus:
“First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.” 
• Comparison: Both emphasize the importance of persistent seeking and self-determination in the pursuit of truth and personal growth.
2. Inner Kingdom:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 3:
“Jesus said, ‘…the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known…’” 
• Marcus Aurelius:
“He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.” 
• Comparison: Both suggest that understanding one’s inner self leads to a harmonious relationship with the broader universe or kingdom.
3. Impermanence of the World:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 11:
“Jesus said, ‘This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away…’” 
• Seneca:
“What fortune has made yours is not your own.” 
• Comparison: Both reflect on the transient nature of worldly possessions and states, urging detachment.
4. Self-Mastery:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 70:
“Jesus said, ‘If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you…’” 
• Epictetus:
“No man is free who is not master of himself.” 
• Comparison: Both highlight the importance of inner resources and self-control in achieving freedom and salvation.
5. Simplicity and Contentment:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 36:
“Jesus said, ‘Do not be concerned from morning until evening and from evening until morning about what you will wear.’” 
• Seneca:
“It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor.” 
• Comparison: Both advise against excessive concern for material needs, promoting simplicity and contentment.
6. Facing Adversity:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 68:
“Jesus said, ‘Blessed are you when you are hated and persecuted…’” 
• Epictetus:
“Difficulties are things that show a person what they are.” 
• Comparison: Both recognize the value of enduring hardships as a means of personal revelation and growth.
7. Impermanence of Life:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 59:
“Jesus said, ‘Look to the living one as long as you live, otherwise you might die and then try to see him, and you will be unable to see.’” 
• Marcus Aurelius:
“Do not act as if you were going to live ten thousand years. Death hangs over you. While you live, while it is in your power, be good.” 
• Comparison: Both encourage mindfulness of life’s brevity to inspire virtuous living.
8. Value of Solitude:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 49:
“Jesus said, ‘Blessed are the solitary and elect, for you will find the kingdom…’” 
• Seneca:
“Nothing, to my way of thinking, is a better proof of a well-ordered mind than a man’s ability to stop just where he is and pass some time in his own company.” 
• Comparison: Both praise solitude as a state conducive to inner discovery and peace.
9. Inner Light:
• Gospel of Thomas, Saying 24:
“His disciples said, ‘Show us the place where you are, since it is necessary for us to seek it.’ He said to them, ‘Whoever has ears, let him hear. There is light within a man of light, and he lights up the whole world. If he does not shine, he is darkness.’”
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This is where the AI stops according to my instructions.
From this I propose a new hypothesis;
That sayings Thomas have a root in Greco-Roman pagan tradition and in this limited case Stoacism.
Comment
No reason not to take the Gospel of Thomas at face value and believe #1, making it the oldest gospel written while Jesus was alive.
No reason at all?
That's a little silly. We don't and shouldn't take any of the gospels "at face value," especially given how many of them make false authorial claims. There's plenty of debate among scholars about the authorship date of this one, but I don't think anyone seriously proposes it's older than the 60s CE (and most place it much later).
@@normative All "scholars" dating of all gospels is pure guess work and says more about their prejudices than anything based any actual facts. Gospels can just be dated 33 AD - 180 AD with maybe P52 of John to 125 AD.
@@marksolum1794”pure guesswork” is a pretty derisive way to refer to the life’s work of many impeccable scholars. These aren’t guesses, they are estimates made by looking at historical anachronisms and textual dependencies between different books. Mark is the first Gospel, John is the last, it’s been settled, and not by guessing.
This man too has become boring for trying to act humble while being the very opposite inside.