Are Rows and Lat Pulldowns Are Enough For Biceps Growth?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 27 лип 2024
- 0:00 Intro
1:20 Lat Pulldowns for Biceps Growth
2:27 Rows for Biceps Growth
3:51 Potential Problem
7:58 Are Rows and Lat Pulldowns Enough?
Music: Ruck P - A Tribe Called Tenz
Copyright Chillhop Music - chll.to/6945fbe1
/ ruckp
Rows and Lat Pulldowns are probably two of the most popular back and biceps exercises. In this video, we explore if these two exercises can be enough for biceps development.
A study by Gentil et al. found that lat pulldowns essentially produced similar biceps growth to barbell biceps growth. However, an important limitation with this study is biceps growth was only measured at one region (we'll return to why this is important later).
As for rows, A study by Mannarino et al. found rows produced less growth of the biceps compared to dumbbell curls. In this studym, growth was measured (and then averaged) from three regions of the biceps: 25%, 50%, and 75% of the muscles length.
Now, from these two studies, you may be tempted to think that rows and lat pulldowns may be sufficient for biceps growth, given lat pulldowns itself may be near optimal for biceps growth.
But, as mentioned, this study only measured biceps growth at one region of the muscle. The reason why it is important to measure growth at many regions of a muscle is because the research suggests that muscle do not growth uniformly. Thus, although the Gentil et al. study found similar growth at that one region of the biceps, it's possible that at other region, growth responses may have differed between the lat pulldown and biceps curl.
And this brings us to the most important point of the video. The research would appear to suggest that to maximize regional muscle growth, a fair degree of exercise variation is important.
A study by Costa et al. demonstrates this, they found that performing the lat pulldown and barbell biceps curl was inferior for overall biceps development to performing a variety of lat pulldown (front lat pulldown, behind the neck latpulldown, and narrow grip lat pulldown) and bicep curl variations (barbell biceps curl, preacher curl, incline dumbbell curl).
This study indirectly indicates that rows and lat pulldowns are probably not sufficient for overall biceps growth.
References:
Gentil et al. - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
Mannarino et al. - pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31268...
Schoenfeld et al. (more sets cause more growth) - pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433...
Hubal et al. (individual responses) - pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15947...
Zabaleta-Korta et al. (muscles do not grow uniformly) - journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/Abs...
Costa et al. - www.researchgate.net/publicat... - Спорт
Would have been much better to have performed the pull down and rows with a supinated grip putting more load on the bicep.
Chest to bar chin ups and supinated pull downs are super effective for biceps growth.
Also a neutral grip would be beneficial to stimulate the brachialis for overall biceps size.
based on my life of training and lack of arm size compared the rest of my physique. No. Rows and Pulldowns were definitely not enough to make my biceps grow.
200lbs
19" neck
18" calves
15" arms
Now I spend most of my time specifically training biceps and triceps trying to catch them up to everything else
Watch out for the tendinitis. Excessive volume can cause tendinitis.
Chin ups can fix this
@@eahuso nothing short of direct arm work is sufficient. I've always done calisthenics movements. Before, they were my main exercises. Now I do them as finishing movements. Chinups, dips and pushups. I did pullups so often at one point that I got tendinitis. Switched to chin ups when the tendinits went away and cut back the frequency. Arms never grew. I took all the training advice- except the advice to have a dedicated arm day.
Now I have a dedicated arm day and my arms are growing
@@Aaron722076 Theres a video on this channel that talks exactly about sets/week per muscle and hipertrophy, check that one out.
Bro built like a spider
The pictures you use for rows and pulldowns raises a question - what hand position were the palms in on these exercises during the studies? Since the palms seem to be prorated in both the row and pulldown pictures, if that were the case in the studies, then the curls would be better. The purpose of the Biceps is to primarily supinate the wrist, then assist in elbow Flexion and finally to assist in shoulder Flexion. However, since the Biceps growth from rows and pulldowns were similar to barbell curls, and assuming the palms were pronated as in your pictures, then one could make the assumption thaf.bicep stimulation would be greater from rows and pulldowns than from curls if the palms were supinated.
One thing that comes to my mind immediately:
With untrained individuals it's quite likely that the form is far from perfect.
A trained individual can vary a lat pull-down (or pull-up respectively) to emphasise different areas (hollow, arch, scapular depression/retraction, ...) and Bad Form quite likely diminishes biceps emphasis on curls as untrained (and even not few trained) individuals cheat quite a bit and involve surrounding muscles and/or momentum...
Great point! :)
Nicely done as always man! Keep up the good work!
Thank you, I'll try :)
keep up the videos, super high quality and informative. Can't wait until you blow up
Thank you my friend, I'll try my best :)
I like the way people discuss in this comment section, great points and arguments. Really enjoy reading it. And thanks for the great video, once again... 👍🏼
Thank you for your kind words :)
This channel is gold
Thank you :)
Coincidentally, I was just wondering about this. Very helpful video, love your channel, thanks!
Awesome, haha. I appreciate YOU!
Someone get this guy 1 million subscribers.
Thank you for the kind compliment :)
great video, I'd love to see a video on rows vs. pullups, and what is the actual overlap. Personally I'm not sure if you would train each once a week in A B sessions because they overlap a lot, or would you need to train them both in both A and B sessions because they differ enough, and which should be the prime back choice. Essentially not wanting to over or undertrain the back muscles based on overlapping regions.
I'm not aware of any long-term studies comparing rows to pull-ups.
But, there is an EMG study (www.acefitness.org/education-and-resources/professional/certified/april-2018/6959/ace-sponsored-research-what-is-the-best-back-exercise/) showing that barbell rows produce greater activation of the lower traps, mid traps, and spinal erectors. While pull-ups induce greater lat activation. To me, this finding is logical. Rows and pull-ups involve pulling motions at different angles, which probably results in differential activation of the back. There is probably some overlap, for instance, that EMG study found both exercises similarly recruited the infraspinatus.
Overall, many programs do indeed have you perform both exercises in one session, and I can't really see any issue with doing this.
If I have time, I do all three of rows, pulldowns and curls. I am a climber so prefer doing standing curls with an easycurl bar to make it a little more compoundy. If you are doing curls for aesthetic reasons, rather than just for function, I can see the merit in making them an isolation exercise.
Been lifting for 10 years on and off and I can count on 1 hand how many Full arm days I’ve done. Heavy Rows and high volume back and chest days have been more than enough for me personally. 🤙
Been lifting the same time as well. I just throw in 3 quick sets once a week to be sure. I do an “accessory day” once a week for lagging parts or calves/forearms/arms/abs, stuff like that. Everyone is different and mine were definitely lagging behind. Peace brother!
I’ve been lifting for a similar amount of time and I get much more arm growth when I am doing isolation work. That being said, the amount of arm growth I get with compounds only is still decent
@@1TieDye1 this is what makes lifting not so black and white, genetics is literally everything 😅💪
I enjoy an arm day because of the super pumps
We gotta share his channel man this is too good and is being slept on
I appreciate the kind words, thank you :)
@@HouseofHypertrophy nah man thank you, you’ve made me a more knowledgeable athlete and trainer. You, The Bioneer, and Jeff Nippard are heroes of the fitness world.
curls definitely isolate the bicep the best for me, especially when I brace my elbow on a pad.
you think, standing biceps curls are wayyy better
Great video.
Thank you :)
@@HouseofHypertrophy you’re welcome
This is a good question.
The most interesting part of this whole thing was the huge spread of growth between subjects. Wow
The potential of rows for biceps development is highly dependent on the type of rows performed. More precisely, to which part of the body is the weight being pulled is a big determinant in biceps growth. If the weight is pulled to waist or umbilicus( like in Yates' Row or one arm dumbbell row as performed by bodybuilders where the weight is pulled to waist to accentuate shoulder extension), bicep growth will be suboptimal as the amount of elbow flexion will be much lower than a regular curl. However in exercises like inverted rows or Pendlay rows where the weight is pulled to the chest, or in lat pulldowns or pull ups, the amount of elbow flexion is very similar to curls, hence the bicep growth will be very much comparable.
Good point with the Yates row. Though, I don't think we can necessarily say just because the elbow flexion ROM is identical between pulldowns/row variations and bicep curls that biceps growth will be comparable. As shown in the video, rows (that were performed with a fair ROM + supinated grip), was not as effective as curls. Moreover, the different exercises could produce different regional biceps growth, as implied by the Costa et al. study.
It would be interesting to see what the outcome of a study would be using Yate's rows with a reverse shoulder width grip were tested for bicep activation. I'd bet it may actually garner better results than the pulldowns.
I was wondering why they didn't use reverse grip on those pulldowns. In that case you don't even need isolated bicep exercises anymore.
That was not seriously done.
Or weighted chin-ups
@@Dispensationalism Doing exercises with reverse grip will not make your biceps grow, stop deluding yourself, you have to do isolated exercises.
@@demeroldemerolforgodheista9793 surely the bicep won't be as active as the Radiobrachialis
Bench press and pull ups have resulted in 19.5 " arms with very little direct tricep or bicep over a lifetime of training for me....It could be because I did more direct training at the beginning. Been training over 40 years...
Thank you for the video! I would like to see something about cardio (if it affects gains. If it's better done before or after training, or on other days) or something about diet. Again, amazing video!
Thank you for the kind words, and yep, I will definately make a video around combining cardio and weight training.
By the way, I actually wrote about this topic a while back for some publication, feel free to read it here: betterhumans.pub/how-to-combine-cardio-and-weight-training-to-overcome-the-interference-effect-ef2c046f81ad
Nevertheless, I will create a video on it :)
Perfect and makes sense from experience wise as well.
On a side note I hope that you tackle the abs/core subject and how everybody deny hypertrophy standards when dealing with talking about :training it everyday with many sets and no rest to very minimal.yet common sense says that it should be trained with progressive overload and not more than 2-4 times per weak like every other muscle.plus I want to know what you think about abs weight machines and can they lead to similar outcomes like in other muscles?
Yep, at some point I will make an ab video. But, as far as I'm currently aware, I don't think there's much research in this area. I'm not even aware of one long-term study assessing ab hypertrophy (only EMG, muscle electrical activity, studies). Nonethless, when I make the video, I'll get around to fully searching and perhaps I'll find something.
Here as some preliminary thoughts: I think it's probably possible to train a muscle (including the ab muscles) multiple days in a row, as a *trained individual*, as there is research in this population indicating training a muscle 5-6 days a week can work. As for untrained individuals, I'm not sure. If soreness and damage are present when training, it may not be the best idea to train it (as central fatigue may be present when training with muscle damage, which could limit muscle activation).
As for ab machines, I see no reason as to why they can't produce similar hypertrophy to non-machine ab exercises. Machines ultimately probably produce similar mechanical tension to free weights for any muscle, likely indicating a similar stimulus.
Thank you for this video. I am interested in hypertrophy. Plz make video in this topics- sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which technique is not better than traditional technique example (superset of same muscle decease muscle hypertrophy)etc. Thank you 😘🤗
I definately plan to make videos on those topics :)
The best bicep exercise, suitable for most people, is the close grip supinated pulldown. The bicep will extend in both the shoulder and elbow joints, making it the all around best bang for your buck bicep exercise. It will hit your lats a good amount too
Yooooo I definitely needed this suffice to say I trust whatever u say so much data backed u don't see this in the fitness industry u are the contrast to trust me bro science
Awesome to hear, thank you! Although, I think it's good for everyone to be skeptical of anything I say. I always reference studies that I mention so anyone can check them out. I'm far from perfect, and mistakes can happen, I'm always open to criticism :)
Definitely not enough in my experience if the goal is maximal hypertrophy. I can smoke my lats and have them sore for days but my biceps will be ready to go again in a day, if I don't isolate them at the end of my pulls with a big dropset or something like Myoreps.
Doing this has given me more favorable results on bicep growth
Nice video. Very educational.
I don't know if there is enough evidence, but I would like to see a closer look at different curl variations.
It often is hypothesized that the long head of the biceps is emphasized in a more shoulder extended position and/or the stretch by using incline dumbbell curls would result in a greater hypotrophy than the standard variations. Theoretically, this does seem to make sense, but is there actual data supporting this?
As far as I'm aware, there isn't any long-term studies assessing this. Moreover, I don't think there's even any EMG (musle electrical activity) studies.
As the saying goes "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", and like you said, it does make sense. Overall, I personally think that there's a good chance incline curls develop the long head more.
I've relieved a lot of growth in my biceps from chin-ups. I did have to fix my form because it was actually working my biceps more than my lats. Now my lats have to catch up. I think it really depends on how you are doing the pulling movement or what you are thinking when doing it. Are you thinking more about putting your elbows down or pulling the bar to your face?
interesting video - what do you think of N1's variations on excercises - their lat pulldown and keeping arms adducted more on incline db bench
I haven't seen this, do you have some kinda link I can look at?
Great channel. If nothing else I've learned that data are mean... very, very mean.
Haha :)
Can you cover whether hammer curls provide similar bicep gains as regular curls
I would love to see more research on forearm development. I feel there is often too much focus on developing the upper arm triceps and biceps and neglecting the lower arms, especially the extensors.
The disproportionate 'turnip' look of most lifters arms is not balanced or aesthetic.
Lads do lap pull downs do anything for my biceps? I feel it more there than in my last and I assume it can help make my biceps bigger right? Or am I mistaken?
Even with those limitations i'm still 100% convinced that when it comes to total biceps growth, bicep curls are superior to rows every single time because with bicep curls you're taking your biceps throughout a full range of motion and it's very well isolated compared to rows where you're pulling with your elbow and your biceps are only resisting being lenghtened and well that means they're not fully active, and ethier way your back is gonna fail before your biceps so obviously you're gonna see less total bicep growth if you're only doing rows compared to only doing bicep curls. Still, would've loved if the volume was the exact same between the row and curl group to give a more realistic comparison.
WRONG
Lower is BRAHIALIS, which work much more in back excercises.
Haven't done a curl in years and my biceps is quite good for my point of view
Biceps flex the arm, so in rows and pulldowns it limit is work, also long head abduct arm so in pulldowns with elbows wide it limit it work.
When you go bodybuilding, you try to isolate the muscle group that you intent to grow. With lats you are trying to avoid using biceps.
The studies have no real value, because its impossible for a scientist to be able to control this.
Also, if you want gains for back, its good to do a couple of biceps curls before the target exercises. Then you are more focused.
And as to the exercise switch, you better stick to a regime that is the same, then you can really target the muscle, when its not growing, you change the exercise and stick with it again, lets say for about 6 sessions (training days).
Será que é estudo do Paulo Gentil??
Rows are not effective for building the Brachii mostly work the Brachialis. I like concentration Curls with any grip for bicep growth.. Does the Tricep pressdown machines hit all heads of the tricep ?
I'm not aware of any research on it unfortunately. If you're interested in details behind one could maximize triceps hypertrophy, I do have a detailed video on my interpretation of the current evidence. The video is titled "The ULTIMATE Guide to Building Triceps (63 Studies)".
@@HouseofHypertrophy thanks, I good idea for a video I thought of was Seated exercises vs. Standing 🧍♂️...and how one maybe better 😀
Better make Inverted rows or pull ups vs Biceps curls
Unfortunately, there's no research (as far as I'm aware) comparing them.
@@HouseofHypertrophy I love your Chanel is the best keep going 💯
More sets equal more growth?? < Ray Vincent has left the chat>
Thats where chinups Come in handy. Rest pause on the last Set and done
Is it fair to say that chin ups would have a similar effect on biceps as lat pull downs?
Potentially, but in theory, they should grow the biceps more as chin-ups also involve supination
Are the same mechanics involved in a row as a drag curl? I.e. do you think that drag curls < barbell curls?
That's quite interesting, I've never thought of that. I guess drag curls and rows both involve some degree of shoulder extension. However, I think there's probably still some noteworthy differences, the biceps are the main limiting factor in drag curls, this is not neccessarily the case with rows. Also, most people perform greater elbow range of motion with drag curls compared to typical rows. All in all, I'm not too sure how drag curls would actually compare to barbell curls.
@@HouseofHypertrophy to a dummy like me, it seems the only difference in the two mechanics of a supinated barbell row and a standing drag curl would be the shoulder angle leading forward. I like mixing drags in at least once a week, but if it has similar bicep activation/muscle mass gain then I wonder if it'd be better to switch them out with something else. Great video as always 👍
Thank you! hopefully we get future long-term researching comparing different bicep curl variations, that's something I'd love to see, and unfortunately is lacking.
When i fixed my form, i honestly stopped feeling my biceps at all and been fully engaging my lats, so I don't exactly see how it would benefit bicep growth...
That’s because you can overuse the biceps when performing the lay pull down when in actuality your supposed to use the lats.
it is still probable that regardless of intent to 'use the lats' in pulldowns/chinups/pullups (regardless of grip), it is probably typical the biceps give out well before the lats do...
Rows and lat pulldowns the most popular for biceps?
Ive never heard of anyone saying they did those for biceps and ive never considered them as working sets for any part of my arm.
Chin-ups, sure. But not rows or pulldowns - not even supinated. If you those hit your biceps, you are not doing the row or pulldown correctly. Otherwise they would be a called a curl amd that is what you would be doing.
For optimal bicep growth, I think biceps should also be trained more frequently than back because it doesn't take as much time to recover and it doesn't have a big impact on overall fatigue. Just a point that came to my mind 😄
"it doesn't take as much time to recover" why???wtf
Because he's not doing as much trauma. Try it with an incline curl.
so what should be the program for bicep?
@@dzenhome6889 Smaller muscle theoretically shouldn't require as much time as larger muscle groups.
I'm stil trying to figure out what rest interval works best for me.
Noticing good results with 4-7 days between muscle groups, including arms.
Tommorow is arm day and they are still sore. Haven't trained them in 6 days
@@comment_deleted If they’re sore longer than 2-3 days then you probably overtrained them. Have you tried cutting down on your volume per session to reduce the duration of soreness? Then you can train each muscle group twice per week, which may give you better gains.
Which push up width do you consider to be the best in terms of chest development?
I'm not aware of any solid evidence in this area. There are some EMG studies, but I question the reliability of them. And if you were to combine the EMG evidence on hand spacing during bench pressing and push-ups (2 very similar exercises), you get conflicting evidence.
Logically, most people assume wider grips focus more on the chest, while narrower grips on the triceps. Overall, I *think* this is most likely true. If you've ever done fatiging repetitions with wider push-ups and narrow push-ups, I think this is quite evident, your chest achieves a better "pump" with wider hand spacing, while the triceps achieves a better "pump" with narrower hand spacing.
There is some reseach (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9356931/) showing the chest (the pectoralis major) has its longest moment arm at roughly 40 to 50 degrees of horizontal flexion, indicating at this position, pec activation *may* be the greatest.
Generally, 40-50 degrees of horizontal flexion is achieved with a 1.5X to 2X shoulder-width hand spacing with a push-up, so this *might*, again, might, be the best for chest development.
@@HouseofHypertrophy thanks, i face a hard time doing more narrow push ups because my hand and forearms are sore
I get way better pump with narrow, I never do anything wide, unless its isolation
That's quite interesting, definately not the case for me.
@@HouseofHypertrophy yeah, I know im exception. I have always had problems with chest. But Im finally starting to solve it, close grip for me is better🙏
I dont think only back movements are enough for maximum muscle growth, but thats just my opinion. I also think one arm curls are better for hypertrophy than barbell, there is some science behind it, but I doupt its very big difference. Supinated pullups are propably very good for bicebs tho.
I'd be interested behind why one arm curls may be better than barbell curls :)
@@HouseofHypertrophy dont know if they used supination in the study but if they did it would explain why the dumbells produced more growth than the barbell as the biceps have 2 actions flexion and supination only possible with dumbells
Supination isn't only possible with dumbbells?
Barbell curls are typically performed with a supinated grip.
The Gentil et al. study had subjects perform barbell curls with a supinated grip, and the Mannarino et al. study also used a supinated grip with the dumbbell curls.
@@HouseofHypertrophy The reason was something about that you train you arms separated. That applies to all muscles all muscles you can train with 1 arm is better because you have more concentration and connection to your 1 arm. The moment you use both sides you lose significant amount of strength. Now if we use barbell instead of 2 dumbbels, you can use more weight because you are using 1 instrument share by 2 arms, but that doesnt make it better, you still have negative effect of doing 2 arms at the same time. Dont remember the right Term for this, but it is science, its real and it can be proven. I will look it up later.
I think you might be referring to the bilateral deficit?
Then I also wonder about Bench Press and Overhead Press for triceps.
Probably not enough, I have a video on triceps training on the channel :)
Why are there so many studies done with these tiny subject numbers? You would think a university could coordinate funding for more people than it takes to fill a movie theatre
i started doing pull ups and my biceps grew quite a few, not sure if my anecdotic evidence is usefull
Interesting stuff! :)
Done correctly, you should barely use biceps during rows or pull downs.
Rows and pulldowns do not build the bicep it builds forearm and grip strength!
haha wrong, with every back exercise you also train your biceps
Dan always spreads misinformation what a shame pronated, and supinated rows work the brachialis, forearms, and biceps effectively 😎👍
Dahh
no
These studies are quite pointless, as muscles engagement in an exercise is a matter of execution.
For example, when I perform Lat Pulldowns, I make a conscious effort to disengage my biceps. My elbow flexes due to the resistance, not my Biceps contracting.
When done properly, a straight line is formed from the pulley through the forearm to the elbow when viewed on a sagittal plane, I perform seated Rows the same way. I also pause for a second in the contracted position, making sure the resistance doesn't bounce out the top from the excessive use of momentum.
As a result, I get no burn or pump in my Bicep whatsoever when I perform my lat/upper back work (this is not the case when I perform chin-ups, which I don't perform anymore anyway).
So, I'm confident that if someone was instructed on the proper way to perform Lat Pulldowns (as mentioned) for the development of the Lats, they would get little/no Bicep development, but obviously a great deal of Lat/upper back development.
I'm very skeptical you can fully disengage the biceps anywhere close to fully, resisted elbow flexion is restisted elbow flexion, that means biceps contraction.
Ultimately, I'm not too sure how many folks perform lat pulldowns (or seated rows) like this, if you do, cool.
But I wouldn't go about calling these studies pointless, I'm quite sure many perform a lat pulldown normally, hence this data may be of use to them.
@@HouseofHypertrophy Try it for yourself. Take a cable or resistance band in one hand & pull your elbow to your side without contracting your Biceps.
If you do it right you'll be able to poke your biceps with your other hand & it will be relaxed/flaccid, as it's the resistance produced by the cable/band that causes the elbow to flex in lieu of Bicep involvement. The elbow would only remain extended if you contracted your Tricep, like in a straight arm pulldown.
Also, it's not "resisted elbow flexion" because if done properly, the forearm (which is the primary lever of the Biceps) remains parallel with the direction of resistance produced by the cable, rendering the forearm a neutral lever.