Overtones ARE Your Drum Sound | Season Four, Episode 52
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- Special thanks to TnR Products, makers of the TnR TrueVibe isolation mounts, for sponsoring today’s episode! Visit them here to learn more: sladl.ink/TrueVibe
From external muffling to tuning hacks to drumheads with built-in control, it seems like everything is geared towards cutting down on overtones. But what if overtones are absolutely imperative when it comes to your drum sound? What if overtones are actually what makes drums sound different or even what makes something…sound like a drum?
PATREON:
This season is made possible by our Patreon supporters. Join us on Patreon for access to exclusive content such as Cymbal Sounds, our long awaited cymbal series, and MUCH more: sladl.ink/Patreon
PRODUCTION PARTNERS:
GIK Acoustics (sonic treatment): sladl.ink/GIK
AKG Audio (microphones): sladl.ink/AKG
Evans Drumheads: sladl.ink/EvansDrumheads
ProMark Drumsticks: sladl.ink/ProMarkDrumsticks
Signal chain:
Mics - Focusrite Clarett 8Pre USB & OctoPre - MacPro w/Pro Tools 12.8
Recorded at 48kHz / 24bit
Overheads: (Matched Pair in Glyn Johns - Cardioid) AKG C314 sladl.ink/C314Pair
Snare, Toms: AKG C518M sladl.ink/C518M
Kick Drum: AKG D12vr sladl.ink/AKGD12VR
No EQ or compression in use with drum demos unless otherwise noted
Acoustic Treatment:
GIK 242 Acoustic Panels: sladl.ink/GIK242
GIK 4A Alpha Pro Series Diffusor/Absorber: sladl.ink/GIK4aAlphaPro
GIK Evolution PolyFusor Combination Sound Diffuser/Absorber: sladl.ink/GIKEvolutionPolyFusor
GIK Tri-Trap Corner Bass Trap: sladl.ink/GIKTriTrap
Drums:
Pearl Masters Maple Custom Extra w/Ludwig LM400 70’s Supraphonic
Cymbals:
22” Jesse Simpson Clone of old Zildjian A, Zildjian 15” ‘Fat Hat’ Prototype hihats
Drumheads:
Snare: Evans G1 / Snare Side 300
Toms: Evans G1 Coated / G1 Clear
Kick Drum: Evans UV EMAD / EQ3 Coated White Reso
Hosted by: Cody Rahn
Production & Consulting: Ben O'Brien Smith @ Cadence Independent Media
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*NOTE: Troll comments will be deleted. You're welcome to disagree with whatever you like but let's keep the conversation civilized and focused on drums.
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We absolutely swear by the TrueVibe isolation mounts by TnR Products. Thanks to TnR for sponsoring today's episode. Pick up your TrueVibe isolation mounts here: sladl.ink/TrueVibe
I have been told this often in the past - that the overtones (which I really don't always love) are what can make a snare or other drum "cut" and supply most of the tone as well. I like a dry snare, but sometimes I notice that snares with more overtones do seem to cut really well and sound great. I have a cymbal that is the same way - has a funky overtone I don't love when I am drumming without other music, but it sits beautifully in the mix. Interesting for sure. Thanks for the video!!
Great video comrades. I was rewatching the wonderful Chris Layton's video in which he demonstrates the essentials of his drumming. His Fibes kit is super ringy and he even plays the snare often off centre accentuating the overtones. The whole sound is so lively and open. When it switches from solo drum kit to drums plus band, the overtones blend in to the whole sound and no longer seem overwhelming. We spend a lot of time playing and practicing on our own and we can become over focused on the sound of the drums as it appears in our practice setting. So we get heavy heads and a lot of muffling to make the kit sound "good" for us in that private context. When we then take the same setup to a situation where the drums are part of an ensemble, that sound that worked for our ears in the solo setting now renders the kit no more pleasing to the ears than a series of cardboard boxes.
Exactly! It took me some time early on to understand that distinction, and when I did it revolutionized my playing and sound. And I started consistently getting compliments on the sound of my kit from the audience and sound engineer points of view.
Couldn’t have said it better! We are proud to support and partner with SoundsLikeADrum. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
I just ordered two sets after seeing the demo in this vid, one for home and one for a church kit!
@@b.p.879 thank you B.P. let us know how it goes.
Ha, that sound when all the overtones were removed reminds me of the drum machine programming on Man on the Corner by Genesis!
the sound with just the fundamental is fascinating - i've found it often tempting to boost the fundamental in a given mix and this is a great way to illustrate the sound youre getting when or if you decide to do that
I used to use the TNR products early in my experimental phase with these sorts of things. I like them still, but I prefer the floating basket arms that Pearl makes, and the Gibraltar or Pearl floating floor tom feet. They are similar in concept, but more permanent and travel friendly. I would occasionally misplace a booty shaker or foam wedge and it was a big bummer, given how much I loved that full floating sound. The Pearl snare basket ones are so well built, I use them on my rack tom AND snare. Gives me big sounds and my drums dance around a bit less too.
This is exactly the convo I want to have!! I am always striving for wide open harmonic resonance out of every surface. I can always mute with towels, etc as the music requires, but I want the kit to sing.
it's important to differentiate between harmonic overtones and partials. I'd imagine a lot of what people don't like in a "bad drum sound" are unpleasant partials that are clashing with the harmonics the ear wants to hear.
Absolutely! We’ll be getting into harmonics vs. overtones in a future episode but wanted to kick things of here with a simplified version to explain the fundamental vs. overtones and the role that overtones play in differentiating sounds.
Awesome well explained as always thanks to all of you in front and back of the cam 👏👏👏👏🤟🏼🤟🏼🥁🇨🇦
I play in a doom metal band. Had that problem with the kick getting lost. I took off the eq3 and put on a UV1, no premuffle. Tuned both heads up higher.. Problem solved!
As a side note, a similar product for increasing floor tom resonance - Booty Shakers - are the perfect size to wedge between the left column of your bass drum pedal and the batter head for situations where an undamped bass drum needs some damping. I imagine the TrueVibes do the job just as well! Great products, even for situtations where it's not their intended use.
Yep! Booty Shakers are the old version. TrueVibe is the new and improved version from TnR Products. We love ‘em!
Yeah, I love letting the drums sing! I barely even dampen the kick drum, other than using an EMAD batter head. The only time I use any legit dampening is when I'm specifically looking for a dead sound, or when I'm using a cheaper drumset in a smaller venue with poor acoustics. Otherwise, tune them well, and let those babies sing!!!
Wow I'm super impressed by those TrueVibe mounts. Gonna pick up a set right now.
Fab stuff comrades. I was just rewatching Chris Layton's ancient video where he demonstrates the key aspects of his playing. His Fibes kit sounds awesomely ringy and he plays the snare in such a way as to maximise the ring by striking it off centre. When the band comes in , all that ringy sound gets absorbed and the drums sound beautiful and the overtones don't seem so prominent. In the modern age of endless solo drumming it's easy to forget the sound we're aiming for is not the sound that seems best when were in our private practice space but the sound that works in the context of the music were participating in.
Reminds me of how when I was first starting out I used the e rings and all. Over time I switched to moon gel and now I just use Ec2 over reso heads.
I’m not sure why people try to choke drums to death. If you want them to sound like a sofa cushion, just hit a sofa cushion. They’re cheaper. If your drums are too loud,different sticks(cool rods,brushes)and playing softer usually work. Try using zip ties to secure soft foam on your bass drum beater. A guitar pick super glued to the foam on the spot that contacts the head will bring back a “click” while still being very quiet. You’ll STILL need to play “heal down” with your foot to make the most of the foamed beater,tho. You get much more control while playing quietly that way. Takes a bit of getting used to but it’s worth it. Being able to play heel up or heel down greatly increases your ability to play precisely at any volume level.
Thank you so much for this information keep up the good work
I'd like to hear that same tom in the standard basket with the hoops resting on the tips of the arms. I've never used isolation attachments like that before, but I've been able to make a choked out drum sing by moving in the basket (or by loosening the basket).
I didn’t expect the True vibe to make that much of a difference but WOW. Definitely need to get my hands on some.
Outstanding!
I love this conversation! To me, overtones and how you deal with them have a ton to do with developing a signature drum sound, and honestly have defined eras of music.
One thing that I think is important to mention - the emphasis on overtones in a kit should also be defined somewhat by the size of rooms you are playing.
The late 80’s/90’s drum sounds and that “cracking” snare sound work well in a large space, but as Cody mentioned, a lot of the overtones and attack of the drums lives in the upper frequencies - the same place where detail shows up in a lot of other instruments, and most importantly, the place in the human voice that is the most essential to speech intelligibility.
Unfortunately, the drummers are frequently guilty of starting a “brightness war” on stage, where everything ends up being too bright to compensate for the drums. Reining in the overtones in a small room can be essential to achieving a good balance with an ensemble.
Good stuff-Thanks!
A useful and informative video, as is always the case on sounds like a drum
There's a fundamentalist joke in there somewhere, but I'm too lazy to find it. - Thank you guys for releasing such thoughtful content. I can honestly say that the way I approach drums/ drumming has been drastically changed by your videos. Now I need to focus on managing my overtones to achieve my desired sound. 🤘 Much love 🙏
Insightful as ever, thanks ✌️🌻🇦🇺
Crazy interesting! Can you guys make a video about the difference of room treatment, bass traps, thick carpeted floors, etc?
Great! Thanks!
I just want to preface this by saying that I'm not in any way affiliated with Aquarian, but after researching, I decided to change my tom heads to aquarian hi-frequency texture-coated heads, which are 7mm single ply. The balance is incredible and I get almost nothing but full singing beautiful tom shell tone, and this is easily achieved because I'm not having to strike them hard to get the full shell sound. I used mostly Remo pinstripes and Evans hydraulic heads my whole life. I decided to switch out all of my heads to hi frequency, even the kick, and now they all have a similar sound at the point of striking, which is really helping me learn and improve my chops. You can hear every strike better. I'd love to hear what you think of the Aquarian hi-frequency heads, because I greatly respect your work and opinions! Thank you!
Aquarian make some great heads too! Btw- sounds like you made a pretty dramatic change in terms of the type of heads. Ignore the brand for a moment and focus on the physics at play- transitioning from two-ply 14mil with muffling agents (epoxy for the Pinstripes and oil for the Hydraulics) to single-ply 7mil (not millimeters - mil = .001”) without any muffling. That’s just about opposite ends of the spectrum. Less mass means greater sensitivity to softer dynamics and an overall wider dynamic range. You won’t be able to hit quite as hard with them but maybe you don’t need to. Either way, enjoy the fresh heads and your journey exploring sonic options!
@@SoundsLikeADrum Yes sir, that's pretty much what I've experienced so far with them. I should've mentioned I'm using moon gels on each drum except kick. You're right, I do have to be careful, but I've also changed up my drumming. I used to be all about the single strokes and over the past two years, I've relearned so much, using doubles like (LL+RR) for so much more than I used to, which is naturally lighter-striking and quieter for me, so I noticed my Pins and Evans weren't letting me get all my strikes to be audible or clear, so I did some research and tried the hi-frequencies and they seem to match my new-found style. Thank you for replying, I watch all of your vids and I just ordered two sets of TrueVibes, one for home and one the church kit where I work!
Great video-not a drum comment per se, but "what is the window through which this instrument will speak" is a phrase I'm stealing for my multitrack mixing classes.
LOOOOOOVE THE INTRO 🤣
Awesome video
Just got a new pdp kit with wood hoops and am considering checking these tnr products for the 13’ tom. Seems to make a surprisingly difference
Those kits are super cool! We can’t say enough great things about the TrueVibe mounts. They’re great for use with all sorts of other percussion as well as even practice pads.
I wish they'd come up with a product for tom shell mounts. I know they aren't in vogue but a lot of us still play drums with them and they definitely choke some of the resonance.
I've seen those isolation mounts called booty shakers. They are wild on floor toms.
Yep! These are the 'version 2.0' from TnR Products with some design modifications and rebranding,.
@@SoundsLikeADrum ah! Gotcha. I have the originals then.
Dope video
Can you guys kinda piggy back off this and show how different Tom mounting systems affect the drum resonance.
I find with Yamaha Tom mounts they kinda choke the toms in my experience
That’s interesting, because I’ve always considered them the best Tom mounts 🙂
@@mattwood1562 idk man that’s always been my experience. Especially with the 10”
I had an issue with Yamaha mounts until I learned not to slide the top "up" too far on the mount. Now they ring in a lovely way.
1:02 eyyyy :)
I've kinda always been surprised at so many drummers and sound techs being so anti-overtone. It always has seemed obvious to me that, properly tuned, overtones are... TONE. If we want to have an actual pleasing tone from our drums, whether we prefer higher or lower tuning, then we shouldn't muffle out that tone. Now, admittedly, our kits sound different in our faces than out in the room. Sitting behind the drums we're hearing all the overtones more loudly. But out in the room with all the other instruments and vocals pumping, it's exactly those overtones and resonance that make the distinct sound we want from our kits, and help that sound cut through the mix without us having to beat the living crap out of them for pure volume.
From my manager:
"Here is my personal experience mixing for a live event. I had a disagreement with my boss and he said I should equalize the drums until the overtones become inaudible. I objected and told him I should leave them alone, and instead rely on balancing.
In theory, the overtones would make drums cut through the live mix. After some critical listening tests, I figured I could do a middle ground between no overtones and prominent overtones.
If eliminating overtones is an unwritten standard in live sound mixing, I think it should be changed. That leaves me with a few questions: Is there any truth to eliminating overtones in a live sound context? And, what would be the consequences of leaving the overtones alone in such circumstances?"
This is coming from me:
Let me know what you think.
Again, literally eliminating overtones leaves you with nothing but the fundamental....so a sine wave (as demonstrated in the beginning of the episode). At that point it's basically the sound of a synth. You simply can't have an instrument sound like what it is without the presence of overtones. You may use an EQ shelf or even low and high-pass filters to attenuate certain portions of the frequency range when mixing in order to clear up that space so that other parts of the band can be better heard. There are all sorts of techniques in order to carve out space for all of the components of the ensemble. If you chose not to EQ anything in a particularly dense mix, it can be extremely challenging bordering on impossible achieve balance. Cheers! -Ben
I still stick to the old school method of throwing a small handful of cotton balls into an open tom, then putting the batter head in and tuning accordingly. It ALWAYS a works for me, and allows enough good overtones to still exist. You do need to experiment with how MANY cotton balls work for you, though.
Do you find that this is doing more to affect the sustain, and therefore the perception of overtones after the fundamental has dissipated?
@@SoundsLikeADrum personally, no I don’t. I love it-it’s just a matter of finding the right amount of cotton balls. Too many and yes, it’s affected.
@@glengamble526 We did an episode on this a while back and how they act as a mechanical gate, shortening the envelope of sound but generally found that there was little-to-no change in the immediate presence of tone, which makes sense from a physics standpoint. Either way, glad you're happy with that hack!
DW also makes a snare stand now that is build for toms (and snare) in mind with more isolated basket arms. It makes a big difference!
It's true! Unfortunately, it sells for $250... These isolation mounts are $20 and do just as good of a job and can be installed on virtually any snare stand.
@@SoundsLikeADrum definitely more of a “if your in the market for a new stand” product. EDIT: I managed to get one on sale for like 1/2 off or something.
From all of your videos, maybe this snare sound is my favourite one. It sounds crispy and fat!
Love the snare sound at the beginning!
Pretty crispy and fat.
I see those carter mclean signatures!
Wow,these things are actually decently priced! I figured they’d be charging $80 for one set of 3.
In your opinion does the TrueVibe on a tom basket provide improved fundemental/overtones compared to a RIMs mount? Could you comment on any differences?
We haven’t done a back-to-back comparison but they definitely sound more full and resonant than the Optimount suspension mounts.
I really need some tru vibe mounts
I'm always struggling to remember what these videos are really about after i`m done watching them. Like this one, ...something about overtones, but i can articulate what was about.
Embrace the overtones!!!!!
Thumbs up straight away for that hilarious intro! And the downtuned metal hits go,e for me, having just started playing with a band that uses a thick mix with a busy low end, and no one could hear the kick drum. Time to look for click-y beaters!
What mics are you using on the drums?
Hey there! We’ve included all gear details in the descriptions of each of our videos. Cheers!
@@SoundsLikeADrum yea just didn’t see the actual mic, I did find it though. Thanks
Man when you first said this sounds like a drum how did you not do the classic what people refer to as a rim shot? lol
Alas, the two of us have been using this phrase for at least as long as we’ve known each other and perhaps longer. It just happens to be the name of our series. It is funny when we see how much people get a kick out of it though. Cheers! -Ben
Dang, I hate to be the “it’s not my tempo” guy, and not knowing how overdone it is. lol
I love over tones.
I hope someone invents a snare with no overtones- there I said it.
Ha! Might as well bust out a sampler and choose a sine wave at your preferred frequency. 😉
@@SoundsLikeADrum would be sorta dope if I could order a snare set at a specific freq...
Comment!!
I dont hate them specially on snares. Most people that hate them need to start playing with other musicians and realize that drums are not supposed to be Heard alone
I listen to hear if sound is something to duplicate, talk doesn’t do it for me.
No worries. Our channel probably isn’t a good fit for what you’re looking for, as we focus on contextualizing these sounds (the ‘why’) while also covering the ‘what’ and ‘how’.
Now if you could just have good sound engineers to utilize everything that the musicians put into their gear and performance you might really hear a difference. Truth be told nobody takes the time to find each drums fundamental tone. They will mix however they want to regardless of any musicians efforts.
Not all audio engineers behave the same way (fortunately/unfortunately). It's also their responsibility to look at (or hear) the big picture, something that individual musicians aren't always known to do. In the end we all need to be aware of our sonic blindspots and increase our awareness for how the work that we do factors into the whole of the music. If we start out by completely negating the value of some aspect of our sound in a vacuum, it can be very difficult (or impossible) to get that back when it comes to the audio engineer. Cheers!
I get the paid promotion but this episode just came across as a massive ad. Its different when you start out explaining that you are trying out a product, like with the snares, but this whole episode was just made around being an ad. Come on guys, if you are going to do ads that's fine, but don't make out it's a genuine episode with the end result being "the only way you can achieve these results is if you buy these ......" And not give any other options like you used to. I believe I have watched all of your episodes since the beginning and what I have always loved was the honesty about what the episode was about and if you were being paid/sponsored.
It seems as though you may have misunderstood this episode. We came up with the concept long before we even reached out to TnR Products to inquire about supporting it. We thought the TrueVibe isolation mounts made perfect sense to incorporate based on the nature of the topic and would have used them as we did here regardless of whether or not they sponsored the episode. If the whole episode seemed like a massive ad," maybe that's because the sponsor directly relates to the content being addressed. We try to do that whenever possible, as we believe that it enhances the content rather than detracting from it.
Also, nowhere in this episode to we state that this is the only way to achieve these results. We did make it clear that starting with a full, resonant tone allows you far more flexibility and that these iso mounts are a great means of getting there but they're certainly not a fix-all or the only option. You still need to be cognizant of tuning choices. We believe that the topic addressed here is INCREDIBLY important to the discussion of drum tone and yet there's a massive amount of misunderstanding around overtones. We think this was one of our most effective episodes in demonstrating the concepts discussed.
It's clear that you've enjoyed and likely benefited from the channel having watched all 200+ of our episodes. We invite you to consider joining our Patreon if you'd like to help shape the direction of the channel and support our efforts. Thanks!
@@SoundsLikeADrum
I agree that yes, I have received a huge amount of insight from your videos and am very thankful for all of your hard work. You guys put a tonne of effort into all of your videos with this one being no exception. Taking out the fundamental note so the overtones can be heard was fantastic. The concept for this video was awesome and definitely brought to attention shortfalls in my kit and the way I tune it. And I do agree that the TnR products did make a huge difference to the toms. Infact I am inclined to buy them for my 12" tom on a snare stand.
I may be the only one that felt this way about the episode, but I feel like my trust for the honest and non biased information from you guys that I had come to expect was a bit exploited.
But hey, who am I to judge. It made me realise that I have hit that age where my gut reaction to something that rubs me the wrong way, is to write a letter to the company and have a winge about it lol. Damn that makes me feel old lol.
You guys have been doing an amazing job for many years now. I just don't want to see you guys go down the old rabbit hole of capitalism creeping into all of your videos to the point they become straight up ads.