GREAT VILLAINS are TESTS... (The Last of Us Ep.8)
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- Опубліковано 18 тра 2024
- #ellie #David #hbomax
David is a MONSTER… but he’s not introduced as one. The Last of Us gives its audience about 15 reasons to seriously question our suspicion, and that feels wrong in a story like this. The Last of Us is all about man vs man, the world begs us to be suspicious! But with David, we’re shown a man who’s nice and helpful, who is honest even when he doesn’t have to be, who can’t possibly be our enemy -- and then it undermines ALL OF IT! This is Ellie failing to take on the protective roel of Joel, she’s too naive, she’s too inexperienced, too trusting, and she pays the price… by being forced to be Joel in a much darker way. She is forced to do whatever she needs to in order to survive, and waiting for her at the end of that road is David -- fear itself, Ellie’s ultimate nightmare.
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0:00 - seriously, Ellie?
0:35 - David’s mindbreaking introduction
6:32 - Hitchcock’s time bomb
8:32 - What is ep8 about?
11:03 - Ellie kills David
12:59 - Spoilers for ARCANE
13:30 - What is Ellie core character need?
16:16 - grand canyon interlude…
17:14 - Ellie after David’s death
20:50 - Writing tips!
23:25 - Other thoughts on Ep8 - Фільми й анімація
David said he saw himself in Ellie not because he actually did but because he was trying to groom her. It was a manipulation tactic
Also the double connotation.
"I see myself in you" refering to the present: "We are alike"
"I see myself IN you" refering to the future: ... well, that's pretty obvious.
Also something else I noticed/thought of was that David was originally going to groom Hannah, but after meeting Ellie, he decided to switch his target from Hannah to Ellie and when David slaps Hannah, it’s a metaphor for him putting her to the side because he no longer wants to go after her, but after Ellie instead
@@silashurd3597 i noticed that too!! though, i thought he was actually going for her mother
Mirroring and Forced Teaming
What I also find interesting is that Ellie saves Joel with penicillin, which I'm sure we all know by now comes from a fungus. I don't know if that was intentional, but it does support that idea that the real monsters are our fellow humans.
It was mentioned in the official podcast that penicillin is from fungi but I think they didn't talk about it past that and was just like "yeah ironic right?"
oh yeah sure, the real monster is surely not the mutant mushroom that enslaves/eats people indiscriminately that caused your "real monsters" to be born in the first place after it destroyed their civilization and sent us back centuries in the past
My wife is a pharmacist and was all upset with it saying that’s the wrong med. and bad dose and etc etc. I just said movie magic. She wasn’t amused.
They mention penicillin coming from fungus in the 1968 intro scene.
It's the most commonly known antibiotic, if they said azithromycin it would have created extraneous questions. But maybe!
Damn, I’ve only ever thought about Ellie as not wanting to end up alone. But the way you boiled it down to not wanting to be afraid changed everything and is so so fascinating. This is awesome, thank you!
Oh wait, omg Brizzy Voices! Love your channel!!
@@schnee1 Aw what the hell! I’ve been loving your TLOU vids. 🥹🤍
@Brizzy Voices thanks!!! 💚 *deposits "praise from bigger youtuber" in motivation piggy bank*
I think I learned something new about myself… whoa
I find it interesting that a lot of women seemed to clock David being creepy much faster than men, I know tiktok isn’t a great source but I saw so many women saying that they’re partners didn’t realise until much later on in the episode
That is quite interesting, but not surprising. Men don't really need to be aware of creepiness. We need to be aware of competitiveness (for lack of a better word). Women are a lot more likely to be sexually preyed on than men. Men are a lot more likely to be attacked or killed than women. David's violent tendencies were predatory, not competitive, which gears his "tells" more towards the female side of awareness. The actors performance was stellar, because the dialogue checked out most of the time, but he delivered "the ick" so well that women still naturally picked up on it without anything being said or shown outside of his general vibe.
I keep an eye out for creeps when I am in public specifically so I can look out for women whenever possible, so I am more in tune with "the ick" than the average man, but it definitely took a lot of active awareness for me to notice it. I imagine women unfortunately have to pick up this sense up naturally, and at a very early age, as a survival instinct.
I think your right, even as a trans man [and I recognize I played the game *I knew* what was going to happen] but Davids first on screen appearance made me viscerally uncomfortable vs my miltary father who didn't clock it till Ellie breaks his finger, the reason I mention his background is he was trained to recognize this stuff and still didn't
right? the second he lies his eyes on her and maybe its because theres the second guy and we have someone to compare his reaction to (someone whose priority/thoughts on seeing her are very different, as shown later that hed rather kill ellie than bring her back with them),
The moment I saw him, I immediately had a horrible feeling about him
David gave me the creeps since i first saw him, his interaction with the little girl from his cult was disgusting and so uncomfortable to watch
David's debut episode ended with me feeling more scared than triumphant that Ellie got out. I've played the game so I knew what was going to happen, but you could feel how the incident sticks to her. It's bone-chilling, but it was acted out amazingly
I unfortunately couldn't (fully) enjoy the ending of ep. 8 all that much when I watched the episode originally. I was disappointed (or rather worried) about the change they made with Joel finding Ellie outside the building, rather than finding her in the chaos and sort of pulling her out of it. My worry throughout the entire series was on a meta level that they would attempt to change her character, make her more damaged, more violent to reimagine her more in line with TloU part 2 Ellie - a little bit like retconning her character. And putting her through this violent and traumatic encounter without Joel's immediate help and intervention supported this fear of mine a little. Having seen the final episode, I think my worry was largely unfounded. Though I can't be sure how much of all this will be picked up on in sesaon 2. Like David's "you have a violent heart" line to her, for example. I wouldn't say I am confident, but based on their efforts in season 1 I am more hopeful than not that they will do the characters justice in season 2, which TloU part 2 couldn't.
It showed the visceral terror of losing autonomy over your body and personal space and that even winning and escaping doesn’t erase the terror.
I think the scene with David and the fire is really meant to symbolize David's true priorities as a leader. When Ellie throws the flame David looks back as the curtain catches fire. Instead of putting the fire out before it can spread, the option that'd best benefit his people, he continues to pursue Ellie letting the town hall burn.
Yeah, and it’s also terrifying, because this man is literally watching the building he’s in burn down around him, and his obsession with Ellie still somehow outweighs that in his mind. He was fully planning to assault her when either of them could literally suffocate and die any second if they stick around any longer. Just one shot of him looking at the building catching on fire and then turning away unfazed makes him so much more terrifying. Because any normal person would try to put it out, or give up on Ellie and run out of the building, and that’s clearly what she was expecting when she threw the log at the curtain. But he just doesn’t care. And suddenly the situation becomes all that more horrifying.
Also giving her the penicillin for Joel: he knows his people are going to want to murder Joel anyway, but he gives her penicillin which his people are going to need at some point, just to increase his chances of grooming and molesting her
Schnee is by far the best creative writing tutor I have ever seen. He sees stories in such a nuts and bolts way that is unique but easy to understand. He is able to make you consider things for your own stories by giving you a new perspective on already existing stories without just telling you the clishéd advice that every other writing teacher gives you. I truly hope Schnee becomes a professor in creative writing or writes an amazing book or everything else he deserves.
100%, complex but not hard to understand. love this channel, it's helped me so much with writing
Schnee is an AI language model. Any video of him on the channel is a deepfake. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise
One hundred percent agree. I stalk the channel for updates, he's just that great. And really no one tackles creative writing like this. I would know, I track everyone. So thankful. Amazing stuff.
I 100% agree with you, I would also like to note that we have very similar last names lol
I think the thing that I loved in terms of how the series and the game handle Ellie after killing David is how adapting the medium changed how the pacing worked. In the game, Joel finding Ellie right after she killed David worked because the game was riding off of the player's adrenaline from fighting David. In the series, we don't have that interactivity, so her walking outside was used effectively to let all that happened to her settle in the audience. It's different, but it works so well on both ends.
Jesus christ thats a great observation. I also read an article which stated leaving Ellie alone and by not making Joel stop her meant giving her agency to stop herself.
I didn’t trust David at all from the first scene when he was preaching, he was giving hardcore Waco vibes and it was weird how everyone in the room was so quiet and scared looking
that was how i felt too, everything surrounding him screamed cannibal predator cult leader but everything he did and said went against that. it wasnt until we saw them bring "venison" to the chefs only to show a couple seconds later that they had just arrived with the deer that i was like ok yep we're going down that path 🙃
The first time I didn't trust him was when the scene where he glares at one of the hunters after the hunter questioned him and god
@@Player-pj9kt If I didn't know the game, I probably would have started distrusting him when he decided to hunt Ellie down in the first place. Or maybe a bit earlier in the "everything happens for a reason" scene.
I agree. In terms of red flags, that man was a walking Chinese May Parade from the moment he appeared on screen.
Totally agree
Her first scream was more angry and defiant, the later ones were filled with terror or horror (not sure which one is more apt). Every time I stumbled across this scene in reviews or the odd reaction video* I watched, I couldn't help but cover my eyes and face with my hands. So powerful and disturbing, Bella really outdid herself here.
My worst nightmare too: a child
Predator
@@uhoh7545 i thought you were someone else calling you a predator omg 😂😂😂
"There's only one thing worse than a rapist"
"A child"
"No"
@@valzorzano9469 immediately reminds me of this 😂
@@valzorzano9469lol im glad im not the only one who thought of this vine
I wanted to touch on something pretty important:
I believe Bella said something about that moment where she kills David (I'm summarizing the sentiment, not directly what she said), it's that her taking it past the point of him being dead isn't just a matter of her being afraid still, obviously it is, she is terrified like you said, BUT... She's also experiencing ANGER. CATHARSIS. VINDICTIVENESS. Her brain LIKED doing that to David after what he did, she recognizes that it made her feel that way and it scared her. She's scared of how good that felt. We've seen this anger streak in her so many times and it goes to something David points out, it's that Ellie has "a violent heart" and in some way she does. She reacts to a lot of conflict with anger and it's something that separates her from Joel a bit.
He's very pragmatic about his violent tendencies, we see this especially in the next episode, but also in the past that he dissociates mentally to enact violence, he turns the feeling part of his brain off so he can enact the violence he needs to do to keep his own safe. We see how cold he is as he interrogates those two men and then murders them right after. He turns himself into a cold killing machine.
Ellie is a fiery killing machine, she does not dissociate when performing acts of violence, she leans into them with RAGE because she hates having things taken from her and hates the ones that try to take them from her because she resents that she thinks she doesn't have the strength to fight back... But... She does have the strength to fight back. She proves it. She has what she wants, she has the strength to protect the people she cares about as much as anyone else would or Joel would be dead right now...
And it's not all that. The capacity for violence that seemed like such an empowering concept for her, the reason why she was so fascinated by Joel to begin with, it brings with it a whole can of worms, that being that you have to use it in a world like this. And when you've gotten to that point, there is no being a kid anymore. She isn't a kid. That innocence is gone, not because she was almost assaulted, but because of what she had to do to get out of it, and more importantly, what she did after she passed the point of being physically safe... She didn't just want him gone, she didn't just want him to stop, she didn't just want to get away, she wanted him DEAD, more than dead... punished. She isn't a child anymore.
Think I'm reading into it? Oh, you... Just you wait until next season...
I can't argue with what may be coming in s2, but I've really just not seen this element of Ellie's character every time it's pointed out to me. Maybe it's hard for me to see the nuance or something. There was an interview where the writers talked about the same side of her in ep1 when Joel beats the soldier to death, that she's excited by violence and it activates her. I didn't see it that way at all, she seems like a nervous powerless kid who's grown up in a world of violence, and may be intrigued and anxious to mature by experiencing it, but has shaky traumatic first encounters with it. She seems shocked and curious at first with Joel in ep1, then left shaken and disturbed afterwards. The zombie in ep3 she seems curious to see up close, doesn't come off as sadistic. Ep4 she seems nervous and anxious when it comes to killing the KC kid, then totally traumatized by everything about it afterwards. Here, it doesn't feel like anger AT ALL to me. It's surreal to hear that it was such a big part of the directing and writer/actor understandings of the character when it's not something that's coming through, at least to me, at all. I don't really know what to do with it.
@@schnee1 maybe I can point out some stuff, like the way she shouts insults at David’s guys, classic pottymouth Ellie “motherfuckers!”, think about the raw energy in her as she kills David.
Think about when she’s bitten. Riley sits down and cries, Ellie reacts by screaming and smashing the entire store apart with a bat.
Edit: Think about when she cut open that trapped infected in that building, like she didn't look curious at all doing that like "Ohh I wonder what these things look like on the inside...", she looked angry and we know why that's the case, this thing is reminding her of the monster that killed Riley. On some level she feels good having power over one here after what another of them took from her and how powerless she felt desperately trying to get it off of her before. She even asked Joel the previous episode if he feels bad at all killing those things knowing they were once people and Joel doesn't give her much indication that he does. She knows what it's like to have killed an infected Riley, someone she cares about, but these things are still monsters to her and of course she hates them for what they stole from her.
Let’s think about the scene where Ellie watches Joel kill that soldier. Craig and Neil intentionally parallel this moment with when Joel kills his neighbour in front of Sarah, she reacts in abject terror by recoiling and freezing up, you can see it on her face. Ellie is leaning into it, she’s watching it intently, not with glee or whatever, it is what they say, a kind of activation, an interest, she doesn’t look scared by what she’s watching.
Yeah there are instances when she can kill without being angry and furious, like when she shoots Brian, when she’s killing infected, she doesn’t turn into an angry monster every time she enacts violence, but that is a major component of her approach to violence, to life even. She responds to things with anger, the way she shoves Joel and shouts at him in their confrontation, the way she attacks him on sight like you mentioned (she was visibly angry then, she was furious in some of the first few scenes we see her in).
And yeah, the reason I do point some aspects of this characterization out is
A) because it’s relevant to her loss of innocence in this last stretch of the season EDIT: it's an important part of WHY she's so capable, why she has this incredible will to act under pressure, it's because she has this powerful emotional drive, anger, rather than Joel's detachment that just lets him turn the conflicting part of his brain off to do things like execute a whole hospital full of armed revolutionaries without being bothered by it.
B) because it’s extremely relevant to the next season
I personally think they did show it quite well, but I do get it, like I didn’t fully get the “activated” thing either at first, but I when I heard Craig talk about it, it helped frame the character going forward. We often miss some layers of stuff the first few things around with media as good as The Last Of Us.
Think about how many times you have to watch Arcane to see all these layers to characters and the world. That’s what makes me love these things so much, I can always catch something new every time I come back to it.
ellie does experience some catharsis with her anger in the sense that a point of danger has successfully been rebuked, but i do not think she was feeling vindicated. the weight of how much it costs to enact that violence, how close she came to *not succeeding in spite of her violence generally having positive results*.
the lust for violence that you are suggesting is amped up here because of the near failure, not because of its barely being a success.
and sure, this is definitely one of the fomenting seeds of her growth towards using that violence more often, but i do not think this was a moment of empowerment for her.
when all of her options had failed and she barely scraped by, that cemented in her head the *necessity* of violence beyond any and all doubt. Learning to revel in it as a coping mechanism is not... vindication, I do not think.
she has realized that the external power to accomplish the great violence necessary to keep her alive sucks personally. joel has known this for a while; in order for ellie to gain the same knowledge, there was both slow horror and adrenaline-fueld terror. i do not think she is empowered understanding that the violence is necessary, especially not right now in her character development.
she successfully defended herself in an almost unwinnable position, and in doing so she lost a piece of herself. she can empower herself to try and correct this problem, sure. but feeling the cost of violence is different from knowing about its potential. and now she knows. this mutes the catharsis of her anger, methinks.
now sure, like all trauma, we can learn from it and we can make it empowering later. but this moment right now?
she suffered, she lived, and perhaps later the violence instinct in her will be more maturely honed. but i do not think it felt empowering. certainly not vindicating.
but i might be reading this comment incorrectly.
@@BeeAre maybe you are, I’m saying she thought this kind of strength she aspired to show would empower her to protect her loved ones, and it does, but you have to USE that. And using it is inherently traumatic unless you can dissociate. Joel can dissociate. Ellie can’t. She doesn’t have the experience or the personality to dissociate to protect herself from trauma. She moreso uses anger to protect herself from trauma, a coping mechanism, she gets angry. But that’s not her entire identity, that’s not what I’m suggesting, but it is a part of her in a way that it isn’t for Joel, and having to employ that in a situation where that anger isn’t enough to protect you from the trauma is what kills her innocence. It’s losing that innate curiosity about the world, about life, that optimism being taken down a peg. She talks “after all we’ve been through and everything I’ve done”. What she did changed her almost as much as David did. In fact going forward, David is barely ever brought up again, not even in the games. Because it was the violence that she was pushed to, the kind of violence she was pushed to, that did that to her.
I'm not disagreeing with this, per se, as it makes sense. But I have to point out, Ellie makes several stabbing motions toward Joel when he grabs her from behind while screaming incoherently -- even though she isn't armed anymore.
That is 100% a dissociative PTSD response.
I think David was preying on the young girls in that community or at least grooming them, that was the subtext I got from his short interaction from the girl whose father Joel had killed. As I watched she seemed to know his saint act was false and she briefly challenged him.that’s what I sensed in the exchange.
Joel has been giving protection since day 1. What he needed was to give comfort, and he grew enough to be able to do it.
Also, that first scene with David scared me a lot. The way this girl was crying and not even her mom was comforting her it told us how scared they were of David.
In education we call it the “Zone of proximal development” the thing the student can’t do yet but that we, as the teacher, know they could do given the right tools and the right push. It’s a fine line between pushing your students (or characters) just enough to get them to accomplish what they (and the audience) are ready for but not enough to break them, overwhelm them, or set them up for failure.
whiplash
TLOU Part 2 wouldn't have worked as well without this section of the first game. As tough as Ellie is, this is the first time that she has to fight on her own and for her own safety. She learns firsthand just how crazy everyone has gone out there in the wastelands, and how they will not hesitate to torture or kill her. Once Part 2 rolls around, she's reached a critical point where a literal army is searching the city for her, and us as the player will now have to John Wick our way through them all.
Spoilers check.
@Ching Vang the most heavy copium
@Ching Vang Yo pass me some of that Copium, I need it after the trainwreck that is the second game
I will say that for those who were in the "this guy is giving me creep vibes" camp at the very beginning of the David episode can be chalked up to the actor who did such a phenomenal job. When David is giving his sermon at the funeral/wake and the girl speaks up there's a flash of something evil in his eyes before he recovers and then again when he talks to her after hitting her. The only thing I thought when I saw that scene was "oh God he's an abuser" and the only context I had was the actors facial expressions.
Okay so I haven't watched the whole video yet- but I have a hard time understanding how folks wouldn't be creeped out by David from the get-go. He's presented as being way too nice, we know that no one in this world is truly kind and generous without having something to gain from it. How him and his "flock" act is really suspicious. The quiet beginning where no one dares speak if he doesn't tell them to. This child that seems almost scared of him (which we obviously later find out is real and she's scared for good reason). I mean- idk about you but as soon as he said "the ground is too cold to dig" me and the people watching with me were like "okay so I guess you're eating the dead ppl?". The way he talked with buddy boy outside their makeshift church; "I sensed doubt in there" when loyalty is required without question that is not a good sign. Everything about this man was a red flag, often for the exact reasons you mentioned. He was too good to be true but also the perfect image of his world does slip in ways that make him fall into the uncanny valley, we as the audience feel that something is very wrong here.
I think we (the audience) started to relax to David's character because, and Schmee pointed this out, in the previous three ep, the character's that we met are good, and virtuous. Henry and Sam, Tommy and his wife. I at least got "danger!" vibes from Tommy's wife at first, but then never got confirmation, but instead the show confirmed that they were all good people. I think that aspect added to our ease of warning against David, and did so too for Ellie. But good comment. There was a lot of red flags for sure!
I think a good trick the episode pulls is that even though we see all of the red flags, it still manged to put me to ease a bit (even having been spoiled by this video's thumbnail and title lol) because of how much control was given to Ellie and how reasonable he seemed to be on the surface (and maybe like an extra 6 feet deeper to really sell it to us). "Well he's not going to kill a child, maybe we could talk to him and come to a non-violent conclusion!"
My thoughts exactly, I've just written a similar comment without reading yours 😅
12:01
I wish horror games would take note of this. I'm tired of power being taken away from the player because then when danger pops up you're like "well shit I can't do anything, gg lol"
but it's so much scarier to be in control, and then encounter a threat that doesn't budge an inch when you try to deal with it the same way you have the whole game thus far. That's the "Oh fuck." moment, THAT is true fear.
It's a primal lizard brain feeling that horror games should take advantage of (I mean, people who play those games want that feeling in a safe environment)
ok but can we talk about how he tried to comfort a young girl about her dad dying and when she did not behave the way he wanted her to, he hit her? thats what confirmed for me he was 1000% bad guy
I believe David was wrong for never telling the others that they were eating members of their group. This reminds me of the Uruguayan rugby team whose plane crashed, which left them stranded on a mountain. They had a rule where anybody who didn’t want to eat the people who had died from the initial crash didn’t have to. Those people all died of course, but nobody forced their morals onto somebody else. I doubt that daughter would be very willing to eat the corpse of her father no matter how hungry she is.
Edit: When the team came back, they were also viewed as survivors rather than criminals. Just shows that morality can be shifted based on circumstance.
Which is another reason why David and his group is the villain of the story, and not nice guys. I like it!
I once got caught in a riptide with my brother while my other brother and sister searched for seashells on the shore. After we eventually made it back to shore, they were completely unaware of the hell we had just gone through.
The scene where david attacks ellie in the burning room made me feel such visceral terror i burst into tears. Bella's cries pierced such a desolate place of powerlessness and horror inside.
Its super imporant to point out how consistant joel's character is whenever he needd to protect someone emotionally.
Yes, he is obviously trying to protect both sarah and ellie physically throughout the story.
However, when he sees how terrible the original outbreak is, his immediate instinct after making sure sarah is physically ok, is to tell her to keep her eyes on him. To literally shield her from the horrors of this world.
In episode 3, he wants to leave the road because there is some "stuff up there she shouldnt see." And no, it cant hurt her in the sense he was most immediately concerned about, her physical safety. But he still went out of his way in an attempt to shield her from the emotional harm that could come from seeing a mass grave as well as the explaination that comes along with it.
Joel is always obviously worried about physical safety. But he is equally as conscious about protecting children emotionally whenever possible. And its really good to see how it evolves over the season to the final episode. He knows he might very well lose her as a daughter if she ever finds out he lied. But he also knows that she WONT find out until she is old enough to handle it.
I think there was plenty of warning about David (although I have played the game multiple times, so I admit up front I'm not coming to this blank) in the form of Hank's wife and daughter (who aren't in the game - all we see of the community is the hordes of men to escape from and kill). The wife particularly comes across as fearful. She questions the meat (ie she's one of the few in the know), she is like a scared mouse in the dining room, making herself as small as possible. She is super worried about David's attention to her daughter. David's violence to the daughter followed by his "solicitousness". It all screams pedophile predator and mum knows it. But she clearly feels she and her child are trapped by circumstance. Do those who step out of line end up on the dinner table? It's got to be a concern of hers. And if that happens, who protects her daughter then? She is a trapped, failing parent, which is an interesting contrast to Joel re Ellie. Even more than half dead he is doing everything he can to rescue and protect his child. No judgement on her (the situation is horrendous), but huge points for more excellent writing that can easily be overlooked.
Until Joel finds those hanging bodies in the butcher shop I was understanding about the cannibalism too, like if they're already dead I don't see why not. But those hanging corpses made me think they were hunters and they were trying to hunt them when Joel kills the girl's father, so it was extra FU.
The first “oh shit” moment for me was when the lady said the meat was venison…BEFORE David brought the deer back.
I played the game and I immediately was like eww David’s creepy. So I obviously just knew what was gonna happen once I was watching this episode but it still creeps everyone out and does a good job. Plus I actually liked the little tweak at the end.
When you realize though that David probably saved that girl's Dad's body for eating, which is why they didn't bury him right away. (And they may already have been eating him at some point, which would explain the Mom's hesitancy). Geez.
Another detail I realized after the fact was when David first asked how much food there was left to the hunter. He had to elaborate: "rabbit, pork, venison..." He had to elaborate what type of meat because they had plenty of human meat.
I didn't play the games (I've seen bits of them) so I didn't know about David going into it but I called him as a predator almost immediately. My partner saw the other stuff going on early on (the "it's version" scene). It is interesting how we picked up on different things - and for me personally, how the whole episode just made me feel sicker and sicker as my instincts proved to be right, again and again.
16:11 That reminds me of the part where she stabbed that trapped clicker, like she was testing herself to do it, to be able to conquer something for herself or something...
22:11 Wow, that makes so much sense given Ellie's trajectory in part two...
What she fears is feeling such horrific levels of fear itself...
The morgue joke made me laugh,ol buddy was just waiting for an excuse to eat my grandma
Off topic but I love the stock images you utilize when showing your point 😂
letting the audience let their guard down with David too- the way they let us sympathize with him and trust him is also such amazing storytelling because that's exactly how abusers manipulate their real victims. their outward persona is innocuous to the general public. until, it's not. by then it's too late and children especially, are so vulnerable to their plans. this just is such an amazing portrayal of that having an impact on ellie it really is a big loss of innocence. and the way it brutally happens is so relatable to ppl who have been in these situations
I'm glad you mentioned that the cannibalism as a separate thing from David's evil. I tend to agree that he was just doing what was unironically best for his community there, even if it feels wrong. I think David was a legitimately great leader for this apocalyptic scenario, and that's what makes him so scary in that situation: everyone knew they couldn't do a better job, so they let him get away with some nasty things (such as the blatant abuse towards that poor girl) to keep the community safe.
Me and my mentor just had a conversation about Joel and Ellie’s roles in the relationship. I realized that I related to Ellie, in the way that she relates to the adults in her life. And I realized that I had a Joel-shaped hole in my Ellie-sized heart. It’s something I’m still grappling with, but I’m learning that there won’t be any one Joel for me, but many people in my life are the *singular* Joel of my life.
I don’t know, the part where you talked about the role and role reversal really spoke to me
Wow, that's a really bittersweet lesson :') Thanks for sharing it
@@schnee1 thank you for your videos! I enjoy them immensely
We can be our own Joel too. Self-parenting is healing
I watched this episode with my partner, I very quickly called him as a pedo, and my partner was like no the twist is that they're cannibals.
We were amused when it turned out we were both right but it's interesting to see how we both picked up on the different vibes
He said he was a preacher and me and my boyfriend were immediately like "pedo" 💀💀
Example of how great the writing of the character is:
I played the game, David was evil. I watched the show, “oh wait did they change his storyline and make him good or something”
I am so upset that I wasn’t able to watch this show without having played the game. I wish I could have been fooled by David
Honestly if you wanna talk about Hitchcock's time bomb then you should talk about episode 7. You know that there is an infected in the mall cause Elli has already informed us that she was bitten there, but you spend 20 minutes in the mall and nothing happens. I watched the whole episode expecting a jump scare to come but nothing. And to top it of all that tension is caused simply because of the information we already knew, the atmosphere isn't threatening, there aren't any more shadowy areas than usual, the score isn't scary, nothing, yet I had to stop midway through it cause the tension was just too much...
17:35 One of my favorite Schnee analysis moments.
When he tries to r*pe her in the end in the fire, it doesn't come as a surprise but it's still shocking. It didn't come from out of nowhere, because there were hints throughout the episode from very early on. As a woman I've developed a fear of men because of such experiences when I was underage. Age makes it easier to develop into a trauma, even if the experience isn't severe. Ellie had such a severe trauma that she's afraid of Joe for a moment. People like her usually have unhealthy relationship with sex, so that they can't enjoy it, or they might even have a period when everything is sexualized. Both options are extremities. Great series over all. My heart broke so many times. I doubt the video game can manage the same level of impact as this hbo series had on me.
The show portrays the emotions of that scene so much better than the game. It made my heart race in a way no other show has before. I have only felt the same about the movies perfect blue and barefoot gen. It effected me on a physical level, I could feel the terror so much that it actually triggered my own fight or flight response and felt so unsafe. I NEVER experience that with horror movies or anything like this, but that scene did it. I had to take a break because it was too triggering, and I've never gone through sexual abuse that violent and intense. I think I connect to it because, despite having a very different experience with my CSA, this scene makes me think about how Ellie will feel after this. Its that idea that Ellie knows what's going to happen and that terrifies her. And being someone who has experienced an arguably less traumatic forms of CSA and SA, and still experiencing a host of intense short term and long term consequences mentally, I felt terror for her because I know that even she escapes, that experience sticks with you. It's the terror that *we know* the consequences.
And Bellas performance too, oh my god. I've never felt so connected to a character before. She's an amazing actor.
@@whatisthis1958 this^, thank you. some might say it's not bad because nothing happened, but it's awful to learn that some people only see your sex, and think you're as sexual being despite you being just a snot-nosed kid. yes, I will expect great stuff from Bella from now on. she was great in this and so was Pedro.
Thank you for making this video. This episode touched me so deeply- I spent an hour crying after it ended. My whole family couldn’t seem to understand why it affected me so much, but you hit the nail on the head with Ellie’s unique set of challenges (small, female, weak, young), and the overwhelming desire to not be afraid. These are all things I feel have made my own life terrifying and have made me unbearably afraid. To have the tools, but still, they don’t work. Wanting to escape that fear, but knowing that while you defeat one terrible threat, two are ready to take his place. This paired with Bella Ramsey’s extremely believable performance…. This is episode is a masterpiece and my favorite of the season.
What you said about her leaving the building and reality being totally in contrast to what she was feeling really spoke to me.
Some people I care about told me this story from a brother and sister who lost their dad. In the days after he died, the sister told her brother on a sunny day that she just wanted a cloudy or rainy day. It was like the world had kept going but for her and their family, her world felt hollow without her Dad. The world outside was not aligned with how she felt.
A few years ago during covid, I was going through really low point. I felt lonely and totally incapable of getting out of that hole. I felt like I was totally helpless and would never be worthy of love. I felt like my needs didn't matter to anyone. It was the middle of summer in California so it was sunny day after sunny day. Then out of nowhere, on a Sunday morning, there was this freak thunderstorm early in the morning. I was finally able to just sob and let it out. During Covid, only a few of us were running the service for my church; only the necessary roles like PowerPoint, music, preacher, announcements, etc.
I hadn't played the piano in years, but I went to church that morning and just started playing the piano. By that time people starting showing up to run the service, it was sunny again, but the most beautiful clouds. I was able to do my job that morning along side people I care about, though I was in tears the whole time. "I can get through this. Jesus loves me. People here love me. It's ok."
Thanks for sharing that. Hope things are better lately
@@schnee1 Thank you. I've grown a lot since then. Going through that summer was really hard, but it led to a lot of emotional maturity. I've been learning how to better communicate my needs and ask others how I can meet their needs. That is how I've dealt with loneliness; by learning how to effectively communicate and listen.
In any relationship, we can't live by vibes alone, but by actual actionable information about how our actions effect ourselves and others. Expecting others to magically know what you're feeling is a good way to feel alone.
I totally agree with the thing you said about cannibalism in a post apocalyptic world. The line David crossed was KILLING someone specifically to eat them. thanks for another great video!!
And that they are not strangers they are eating, it was that girl's dad
Yeah no. 15:35 it was waaay more than fear it was DISGUST. The moment he climbed on top of her and started reaching for his zipper he violated her in a SA way.
I was crying before Ellie even killed David. Bella Ramsey conveys the therror of that situation so so well. By the time Joel and Ellie were hugging and you can see Ellie despite her best interest, is still afraid at first an unable to recognise someone who loves her. I was just a pool of tears on the floor. Nothing hit me like the last 5 minutes of this episode
I don’t think the actual act of cannibalism or the lying about it is bad, but its the fact that it makes us kinda start to question if David is a good guy. Before we had absolutely no reason to distrust David and like you said a mountain of evidence to support him possibly being a good guy, what it really does is show that if David lied to all these people then it wouldn’t be too surprising of he completely lied to Ellie so it starts to build tension
I just want to thank you. I've spent my whole life obsessed with stories, but to scared to create my own. And you're helping me change that! I'm still a noobie, but I've loved stories and shows and movies my whole life! I've always wanted to be able to create whole worlds for my characters, but I never felt I had to tools to even try to begin! But your channel has helped me so much. I'm only in the beginning process, but my hope is to one day be able to share my stories and ignite that wonder and excitement in others!
That's so exciting!! Glad to help you along!
I wish you luck!
Something to note about “the moment he goes too far is killing people to eat them” bit as opposed to eating people who are already dead is that, to my understanding, they had already been doing the former. When Joel and Ellie fight the people from David’s community at the university, Joel and Ellie were mostly just trying to get out of there. David’s people attacked them. Sure, they could have been trying to kill them just to steal their supplies and their horse (probably to eat the horse) but why would they kill these random people who haven’t wronged them, especially as supposed (albeit very messed up) Christians? To me, in retrospect, I suspect they were trying to kill Joel and Ellie not just for their supplies, but for their bodies. There were multiple bodies in the freezer room, but we only heard about one recent death within the community (that of the girl’s father)
This could be a stretch on my part, but, it’s just what I suspect, and it reduces how jarring David’s shift in demeanor was for me.
I agree. They were a hunting party and found prey of the two legged kind
What a great episode and video. Bella Ramsey is such a good actor.
The reason why eating your own species is generally not a great idea (outside of the social reasons) is because of prion diseases. I suspect humans have a biological aversion to cannibalism because of that. But, typically prions originate from the nervous system, so if you avoid the brain and bones you should avoid most of the risk.
On the topic of cannibalism I’d agree but I don’t think that he wasn’t just eating the people that already died. When Jole is searching for Ellie he finds 3 beat-up corpses hanging in a barn which I think is hinting at the fact that they’ve been killed to feed David’s group.
As someone who's played the game, I was just sitting with anticipation.
What you were saying about the contrast between inside and outside the restaurant makes me think of the people who'll always remember what a bright sunny day it was in NYC when the towers fell.
Man, I just remembered that the actor for David in this show (Scott Shepherd) is also the actor for Casey (one of the main antagonists) in El Camino: A Breaking Bad Story.
Dude, you have totally opened this up for me. I *felt* this in a way I couldn't identify, but it drove me nuts that nobody was talking about it and just about how Ellie saved herself and how Joel was too late to do anything...
Ku-dos to you! Seriously excellent analysis!
For me, this series is a great foundation to think about m̵o̵r̵a̵l̵e̵ morality. In the last months I did think much about m̵o̵r̵a̵l̵e̵ morality. In for example The Walking Dead we have a somewhat similar scenario. The post apocalyptic world, people doing inmmorale things to survive, but still kind of measuring one self to m̵o̵r̵a̵l̵e̵ morality. Like 'we aren't the evil, we do this, you do this'. But there's always this difference, especially in season 3 (?). What I mean is, the main characters do immoral stuff, but it's always 'the necessary to survive'. The other guys (the governor) are shown to fake morality and doing bad things for the good while actually being bad. They can't be trusted, they are never honest and always have a way to trick you. So the main group may do bad things, but in core they are good. And the other groups may do good things and have build something good, but in core they are bad and in the right conditions, they will show their real face. This setting makes a bad foundation for thinking about morale. Because it's made up from the beginning.
In The Last of Us, nobody claims to be moral. All know, they do things to survive. The sentence from Joel in 4th episode 'I know both sides' really wraps it up. And so we have this mess and can start thinking about, what matters in that world and what is good and what is bad. Obviously, for example, killing people is bad. But if Joel hadn't killed all the people until the arrive at the Fireflies in ep 9, Ellie wouldn't have survived and she matters more than anyone else because the pandemic can be ended with her. So she must survive and Joel makes that possible. But then plot twist, Ellie must die in order to save humanity. But Joel doesn't see/feel it like that. For him, Ellie is important, not humanity. She shouldn't be saved as a mean to an end (and die as a mean to an end), she should just survive, because that's what matters. So Joel kills everyone standing in the way of her surviving and saves her in ep 9. So what about morality there? Well, for me Joel turned Heisenberg and now is evil. So what? Then I ask, what does morality mean? The way it's set up, you can't really blame Joel, or atleast I don't feel angry. I think he did the wrong things, but I can't certainly say, he did. He killed many lives, so why do these matter more? Ok, he prevented rescue of humanity, but who says, it would have worked? What if it didn't?
Also, Joels idea of just family may be naive or stupid, but on the other hand it may be the only right thing.
Your comment is great and totally valid, but I must point out one minor thing. :P The word "morale" specifically refers to a collective state of mind/feeling of hope/belief/motivation (e.g. troop morale, team morale, etc) It has nothing to do with "morality" which is what you are referring to.
I appreciate that you read my comment and am grateful you like it. Thanks for the clarification. I'm german, didn't know the difference. We use the word 'Moral' for both things.
@@razum1448 np, I guessed English would be your second language cause it's such a minor difference and you clearly knew what you were talking about.
2 things. 1 Ellie said she was always afraid but covered it up when talking to Sam which I find interesting. 2 David was what Ellie thought she needed, a man who can give her purpose and a family (I know he means it in a weird way but that's what Ellie thought she needed) and he turned into her worst nightmare
Mannnn! I love the way you describe these scenes to us, it helps me understand film and storytelling with much deeper appreciation.
And I appreciate your effort to explain it so well to the viewer.
Thanks for all the great videos so far.
Damn!!! Great video bro!
You are very good at beeaking down and explaining the emotions, or importance and themes of those scenes. I love your work, it’s very helpful to understand and put words on what i felt was happening.
You're one of my absolutely favorite channels
I love the small criticisms you mention at the end. It’s comforting to see that even the best episodes still have flaws.
I normally respond to the overall thesis or main analytical tool of the video, but this time just wanted to comment on the "nothing to see here" approach. It's sort of a secondhand/indirect point since it's about you mentioning that video on The Shining and its wide angles, but it reminded me of a jumpscare in The Exorcist 3, the clip is probably on youtube.
(line break to avoid spoiler of how it plays out if anyone reading wants to look it up and watch the scene first)
It employs a similar tactic. We have a very open angle and we keep seeing a character who's framed as a trustworthy authority figure filtering in and out of the frame as they leave the room, come back and leave the room again. But the shot still lingers, creating tension because of the lack of reason for the audience to be scared; it's almost too safe. And then as soon as our guard is let down the camera rushes forward and what should be a very mundane wide angle shot becomes a horrifying "my stomach is about to drop out of my ass" scare. Cool stuff
That's the kind of scream I end up hearing from a weirdly far distance every time we think too much about our childhood trauma 👀
Never heard anyone being able to describe it like that. And how true it is, nothing really matters anymore afterwards.
And still it does. It's weird, both is true.
Can't count the times we've died inside but somehow the zombie virus never quite seems to stick on us 😅
I still think about this video essay every day. It’s so good
Love your analysis but also lmao the stock pics
Amazing video!!! I also have an idea for another The Last of Us video: suicide. My dad and I were talking and we noticed that suicide is such a huge part of the show and that most main human characters died by their own hands. In almost every episode someone kills themself. I would just love to hear your take on this trend. ❤️
i havent watched this show at all so my emotional attachement is pretty much non existent, but at 18:57 i just suddenly started crying that was so good. and how you describe ellies emotions just put into words how my worst phases feel like nothing else ever did
In my head-canon, HBO David was a serial killer before the outbreak, and now he has a flock… He wants to train Ellie to be a “shepherd”.
24:38 i would HATE being lied to about eating people. i dont condemn the act itself, i just think the deception is horrendous. bc maybe i dont wanna exist in a world where i have to eat human flesh. and that's my prerogative, even (or specially) in the apocalypse. we should have agency over our own survival.
This is SUCH a good video. This episode was so heavy just watching it but watching your analysis was giving me goosebumps, thanks for all your videos, they're awesome!
This is the best LoU video I’ve seen. Really, really awesome analysis. Thank you!
This video needs a lot of attention...it's an amazing analysis of the tv show, and it deserves a lot. Great work.
Wow this blew my mind, I have so much to learn when it comes to villains. I never thought about it like a test. I love your videos Schnee :)
Always making me cry, man
Great analysis into good storytelling. This was just fascinating!
Man, this episode made me feel sick, and this video make me feel sick, great video :)
Freaking loved the analysis. I felt some of these things but hadn't put words to them. And then I learnt so many things that i hasn't realized and the feeling is so much more potent. The writers just love you.
Another time I've heard that type of scream/cry that Ellie cried in this episode was Andrew Garfield's Amazing Spider-Man 2. When he's crying over Gwen and begging her to stay with him, it's like you said "The one thing that CANNOT happen is about to happen."--or in this case "The one thing that I cannot let happen has just happened."
(I also think about Joel holding Sarah as she died when this sentence comes to mind)
That sentence alone says so much about a tragic character's journey
Holy crap, I've watched this video so many times and it's AMAZING!!!!
17:23 re: ellie escaping david so this is very different in the game. in the game, joel manages to come into the building and interrupt her while she's stabbing david's corpse, altho the dialogue is the same. for other commenters (and you), what are your thoughts on this change?
when i was watching it the first time, my instinct was "hang on that totally messed up the moment & ruined the emotional climax". bc joel *does* know the end of what happened and kinda empathize and did sort of physically stop/save her at the same time.
yes in the podcast, the writers said that joel didnt come in cuz of logistics ("how would he get into a locked & burning building?"), but still, the two scenes felt very very different bc of this and i'm not sure if i'm just biased cuz i experienced the gameplay first. for the viewer/player, having joel come in during the climax also feels like SUUUUCH a relief, whereas having joel reach ellie after she left the building feels more horrified/disappointed than relieved. that said, i do love bella's performance, esp when she returns to "stabbing" when joel grabs her.
youve got so many great media takes, each time i click on one of your videos i know its gonna be a good time
Especially your point @3:55 and @5:20; I was watching this series with two friends who went in 100% blind and during Davids "I was a math teacher" scene one of them quite literally said something along the lines of "you'd think I would have learned to not be immediately suspicious of every new character by now. He's just trying to help her out"
Remind me to.stay tf away from if there's ever an apocalypse lmao, but I really like how you went into how Ellie failed strategically, alot of that was shit even I didn't think of. It really shows just how practical Joel is in this apocalyptic world. He appears heartless but really he's just strategic asf
hey until that heart stops beating, i'm staying hungry 🙂👍
New schnee video let’s go🎉
I found it interesting how David, a seemingly trustworthy man who tries to force his will on Ellie through lies and eventually violence, is the obstacle we see Ellie face one episode before the finale... where the only two people in Ellie's world that she's trusted force their will onto her through lies and violence. Ellie's desperate grasps for some semblance of control throughout the series come to the clearest test here and she just barely manages to stop her agency from being stripped away by David in the most visceral way possible. Only to then have it done to her anyway.
The only thing I might change in this episode is I think there's another version where they play up the tension between David and James a little more and softpedal David a little more to make Ellie and the audience trust David for longer before the rug pull. Put James more in opposition to the audience through his desire to hurt Ellie, and put David more on the audiences side through him seemingly protecting Ellie from James and draw that out a bit. Then pull the rug affter Ellie and the audience have sided with David, even if only as the seemingly lesser of two evils, by revealing that it was never James that was the real monster here, it was always David.
18:50 wow, powerful stuff. (what? i got something in my eye)
24:50 😅 youll find me with my brain being out of my skull 💀 cause hell no way imma livin in world like this
“You can find me in the morgue” 😂 not what I expected to hear this episode lool
As someone who played the game previously, I never picked up on ANY of the non-sus setup they made as I already knew what was to happen. Seeing this now from fresh eyes really does show how good the show was.
i dunno if i felt catharsis by the end of episode 8, as i didn't place as much weight on Joel's embrace representing earned parental love or effective protection from fear. It's hard to know how much my interpretation is colored by knowledge of the endgame, but even as the embrace signifies those things in that immediate moment, my sense of the mocking pristine scenery and Joel having to force that recognition and hug is that this ending is setup for yet another example of the "nothing to hide, nothing to be afraid of" device you identified earlier.
And Joel calls her "baby girl". 😭
That got me, I was feeling all the emotions and then the baby girl came up and the dam broke.
this explains... a lot. can’t wait for season 2
With your point about it being ok for the preacher to give his people human meat without their knowledge, I think this is supposed to further his disregard for consent. Some people would rather die than eating people that they know, but he took that choice away from them and made them live with that experience. Just like he was doing with Ellie.
Fantastic breakdown
I haven't seen this show, but this video made me cry 😭 guess I gotta get an HBO subscription now
Another great analysis! And your comment about eating dead people had me laughing. When I was young, I'd heard about the 1993 movie "Alive" and how it was so tragic because people had to eat other people. Then I found out they were just eating dead people and I was like, "WTF? That might not be on my bucket list, but big whoop." I just do not find eating a dead person to be any more "traumatic" than eating anything else that had been alive. Of course, having to butcher a dead person or killing someone for food are completely different situations.
Was it just people that had played the game that noticed? Because I thought that first scene with David preaching and right after were pretty clear that he is meant to be scary and a bad guy. The whole room was terrified of him!
In the game it does work a bit more like what you said since we don't get anything from David's POV, only Ellie/Joel. But in the show David is already stablished as bad before Ellie sees him.
Ellie calling him buddy boy and trying to be mean taking the whole deer is a huge bluf she plays because she wants them to belive she has backing.
I feel like your analysis would benefit from acknowleging the game, as many things are explained by the fact the original story had a different format. We only got to see Ellie/Joel side of things most of the time.
As a first time viewer who has never played the game I picked up on the fear of the congregation when David was preaching, but without the context of the game I still had no idea that David was what they were afraid of. Since they mentioned someone had recently died and that they were all starving I assumed the fear was from the terror of their situation, that people were afraid of some outside aggressor or their dire situation.
The scene left me with some general unease about David and what was going on but as schnee mentioned the show up until this point had primed me to see David and his people as possibly sympathetic.
I was slightly put off by David and suspicious but I think the show succeeded in keeping his true intentions ambiguous until the right moment.
Of course all of it completely clicked in retrospect. It truly seems like a different experience if you've played the game since you're expecting the cannibalism and David being a complete psychopath
Re the "is eating people that are already dead to stay alive that monstrous?" question: Not sure if someones already said this, but to me it was less about the cannibalism & more about him lying about it. The deception of "the ground is too frozen" and then watching a little girl who specifically said wanted to bury her father unknowingly eat his body?? THAT is what was so revolting about the meat scenes for me, not that they were eating people but that they don't know/didn't agree to it.
I know you said you think it's reasonable to lie to people about it lol, but me personally I would rather starve & die than resort to cannibalism? we all die eventually its just not worth it for me. Then again, I'm vegetarian & have no idea what my survival brain would actually make me do if I was really starving; But that's kinda my point I guess, it should be MY choice what lengths I'd be willing to go for survival. Kinda like what Tommy says, "we survive the only ways we know how, but there are other ways", or Bill's choice to end his life rather than go on without Frank.
So in that way, I definitely saw those scenes as enough set up for David's reveal as a manipulator & someone who is more than willing to lie & take away other people's autonomy so he can feel needed/gain power over others. So regardless of whether the cannibalism was necessary or not, I think that's why those scenes were set up to feel icky, or immoral. Especially considering we later learn that David's exact justification for his actions are "I know better/It is my right to take care of you"?? Yeah, I think we're definitely supposed to be making a connection between two different acts of violation.
Other than that, fantastic break down!! And i loved the writing tips you got from your analysis, I can already tell they're gonna help me improve my stories :)
Here we go:
1) The cannibalism didn't freak me out (the daughter eating the father was a bit disturbing) but I can't really judge these people or others in history that have resorted to this. It's survival and survival is not pretty or ethical. And saying you wouldn't partake in it isn't something you can really do until you've been put in that situation.
2) The story about the Grand Canyon is interesting. Here's mine that will turn everything, the viewers and you (schnee) on your head: COVID. Backstory: I played TLOU before the pandemic and now watched it DURING a real pandemic. Yes, DURING and despite the majority of viewers saying "thank god the pandemic is over" as they watch what could have been. As you in your story was the zombie, every disabled, chronically ill, elderly, high-risk person is still fighting for our lives out here, as the storm STILL pours on us. YOU are now the HAPPY GO LUCKY TOURIST just showing up wondering what's happened but not caring at all. "YOU HAVE TO GET BACK TO NORMAL, GO OUT DINING, GO TO THE MOVIES, LIFE CAN'T STOP, WE CAN'T DO THAT FOREVER, COVID IS OVER, YOU DO YOU" ETC. Meanwhile, us marginalized people have been sacrificed for YOU AND YOUR NORMAL. And the disconnect between the two is massive until you yourself become one of us (and you will, all people do in time just like Ellie's friend said). And I can scream all I want at the happy visitors to take precautions, get an umbrella, etc. but they won't listen because IT CAN'T POSSIBLE AFFECT US! This is my reality and 1 in 4 adults in the US have a disability. 16 million have Long Covid and 4 million are out of work due to it. But, they all thought WE can't get wet, WE don't see a storm, that only affects THEM, NOT ME. So there's your twist.
3) No mention of David previously being a teacher (and the assumed victims he could have had in that environment). Also, this could have been darker when it's a family member assaulting the victim, then who do you turn to? Definitely f's you up. David got his but I wish he would have suffered more.