A Deep Analysis Into Anti-Submarine Warfare
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- Опубліковано 28 чер 2024
- Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) refers to the various strategies, tactics, and technologies used to detect, track, deter, and destroy enemy submarines. This form of warfare became particularly significant during the 20th century, with the advent of advanced submarine technology capable of posing significant threats to naval and commercial vessels.
ASW operations are complex and multi-dimensional, involving the integration of efforts from surface ships, aircraft, and submarines, as well as the use of various sensors and weapons. Key components of ASW include:
Detection: The first step in ASW is locating potential underwater threats. This is primarily achieved through sonar systems, which emit sound waves and listen for echoes reflecting off submarine surfaces. Magnetic anomaly detectors can also identify disturbances in the Earth's magnetic field caused by large metal objects like submarines.
Classification and Localization: Once a contact is detected, it must be classified (distinguishing between submarine and non-submarine objects, such as schools of fish or sunken debris) and localized accurately. This process often involves analyzing the acoustic signature of the contact and using triangulation methods to pinpoint its position.
Tracking: Continuous monitoring of a submarine's position and movement is essential for threat assessment and engagement planning. This requires sustained sensor contact, often involving multiple assets to maintain a track on the target.
Engagement: If a submarine is deemed hostile, forces may be tasked to engage and neutralize the threat. This can be done using torpedoes, depth charges, or other specialized weapons like anti-submarine missiles, launched from ships, submarines, or aircraft.
Post-Engagement Assessment: After an engagement, assessment is necessary to determine if the threat has been neutralized or if further action is required. This may involve additional sonar searches and analysis of underwater sound to confirm the destruction of the target.
ASW operations rely heavily on technology and coordination between assets. Innovations in sonar technology, underwater communications, and unmanned vehicles are continually advancing the effectiveness of ASW strategies. Additionally, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) capabilities play a crucial role in providing the necessary information to support ASW operations.
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Former P-3 aircrewman here, ASW is one of the most fascinating and difficult mission sets we trained and conducted in my decade of flying on Orions. I’d love to discuss this even further in detail on a later episode.
Must have had an exciting career! Do you have your own UA-cam channel?
@@Sky_Burger88I got to do some intresting things for sure. And yes I do but it’s not ASW related.
I'd love to hear about it. I hope you take the opportunity to share.
VP-4 from 1972-1976.. sensor 1. AW-2. Loved it, miss it. Federal firefighter 25 years, 70 y.o. time and careers fly by too fast. 🙏✌️♥️🇺🇸
@@triggerfish6619I have a lot of respect for the guys that came before me, we truly stand on the shoulders of giants and you guys paved the way for younger guys like me.
Sonars are crazy loud. Underwater bombs basically. Gunshots are 160db, and sounds above 194db cannot exist in air because that would require more than a perfect vacuum between waves. But underwater they can hit you with 240db, which can instantly kill divers nearby, disorient them even miles away.
Imagine an underwater nuke explosion.
Poor fishes and aquatic life.
This is one explanation for whales beaching themselves
Active sonar yes.
Nice drop!☝️
China injured some Australian sailors who were clearing a fowled propeller on their ship.
A Chinese navy pulled up closed, stopped. And dispite of radio calls snd showing proper international signal flags.
China banged out sonar pulses anyway
Now we are getting back to the good stuff I miss your sub content from 2019-2020
I wonder where did all the sonar analysis and whiteboard go.
@@howardkong8927 he removed them i used to replay him playing cold waters and answering questions while i worked i would get through 3 of those a day to make the day go by faster but there all gone now
@@howardkong8927 he removed them all I used to watch his cold Waters live streams while he answered questions while I was working to pass the time I really miss that content
So do the Chinese.
He deleted the stuff that caught our interest and replace with drama, clickbait topics, and stupid thumbnails.
Yay!
“Some ships are designed to sink. Others require our assistance.”
-RM2(SS) Nathan Zelk - USS Montpelier (SSN-765)
That’s awesome. I’ve always liked: “There are two types of ships: subs and targets.”
Look at you Aaron pulling out all of your impressive big words to avoid saying ping.
Give me a ping Vasili, one ping only please
@@Migog5 Ping... BOOOOONG!
Just wait, he'll hit a button too fast and say it by mistake.😁
I learned a new word. *Ensonify:* To fill with sound. The mechanism of landmine detection is to ensonify the ground with an acoustic source and measure the intensity of the returning sound waves.
I just noticed UA-cam's spellchecker doesn't recognize ensonify.
I did Sonar in my Navy's engineering program. At the time, my intake was supposed to get this new civilian-backed qualification for the program, we were the first year of the program. Near the end of the program, we were told the qualification was incomplete because when they sent the Sonar course to the qualification board they asked "ahhh ... ok where's the content?" and when they were told "yeah that's classified" of course they declined to approve the course. Later when I got out of the Navy I had to go back to school and do some additional radio engineering courses to get the qualification! Thanks, Sonar! ;-)
Welcome to the US Navy
@@BubbleheadDiver not the USN! but i imagine most military bureaucracies are like that
I can remember all of the hours and sometimes days, trying to "kill" a sub during an exercise. We had a saying after another failure to locate: "How long can you tread water"?
The most important evolution on a boat is when the night baker makes donuts
The fresh homemade bread with butter is almost as good as donuts!!
@@larrybarton2351 After 45 days or so, it’s really all good if you have a good baker. I was lucky and had outstanding bakers on all 3 boats I was on.
Night rats! Correction, Mid rats!
@@lancekilkenny721 Mid Rats!!
When I was cranking I worked in the bake shop, my workcenter had 3 individuals fail the PRT weigh in that cycle. It could have been the daily donut deliveries... "Cranking" is new sailors mandatory service in the galley.
Thanks! Hey Aaron much appreciate the content you do. I'm an aspiring RAN submariner and am in the process as enlisting as a marine technician , propulsion specialist. Can't wait for the Virginia class boats to arrive. Your video on the ssk/ssg collins has really helped me understand my nations subs. Also the AUUKUS news an updates have really helped with my interview questions. Keep it up mate! 🐬
To add...
The variable-depth sonar and towed sonar array are two key equipment on ASW ships.
ASW small-boat teaming can be low-cost and effective. It can even be unmanned.
This is the content we've all been wanting to see return. Im happy to see you back!
A few questions for the hive mind -
1) How long do modern sonobuoys last ? I watched a video on another channel (WWII Bombers) that showed snippets from a 1944 training film and it showed the basic steps in setting up a cross drop pattern and listening to the returns to work out what the quarry was doing. I do know that modern buoys can be passive or active, work in multiple frequencies and last for ages, but just how long - are we talking minutes, hours or days ?
2) Considering the fact that even aircraft propeller beats can be heard underwater has any thought been put into "quietening" of ASW aircraft ? It seems to me that a turbofan or even a good old fashioned WWII era aerostat (blimp) would be more dangerous to a sub than a noisy turboprop.
3) Considering the fact that subs with VLS installed can fire SAMs at ASW aircraft and either missiles or ADCAPs at surface vessels literally tens of miles away, do short range systems such as the Russian RBU-6000 or Western RUR-4/Limbo have any value any more ?
4) Is anyone allowed to provide any more info on the Prairie-Masker sound suppression system ?
5) Who is ahead in the underwater race - subs or sensors ? Although subs would seem to have fantastic advantages in not being detected this all goes away the instant that they become useful and fire a torpedo or missile. It seems to me that if a sub can fire and retreat to friendly air or surface cover then they can be very useful, otherwise their eventual detection and death is almost guaranteed after their first shot.
My understanding is the submarine is too valuable to get into missile pissing against aircraft. Just sit quiet till the plane goes away
"Back in my day" (lol), the Sonobuoys were equipped with a time-programmable dissolving, sink-plug so that you could set their life before launching, I don't remember the maximum parameters, but you could just tape the inlet closed if you didn't want it to operate. My guess on operation time of the salt water electrolite battery with the sink plug disabled would be days. Someone can correct me if they have better numbers.
@@joechang8696if it can fire the missile without massively endangering itself it's actually a major advantage, it is seen as a major capability upgrade that the german 212a subs are getting tube launched small sub-sams against asw helos etc as before they only had manpads or dive, because not only is an enemy asset destroyed but also the direct danger to the sub eliminated
@@the_retagYep. The best defense is a good offense.
Submariner here. Did a stint with Theater ASW CTF69 and CTG 20.20. Enjoyed it. Gave a greater perspective on what was going on than being on the boat.
You forgot to mention 3 things...
(1) Active sonar is terrible at penetrating thermal layers and even when there is none the submarine can typically hear the active sonar at least twice as far as it can hear the submarine.
(2) In wartime, all the shore facilities, underwater arrays and maritime patrol aircraft will be targeted for destruction.
(3) It is actually very hard for surface action groups to "catch" an evading SSN because the submarine is typically faster than the destroyer even when it is going flat out, nevermind that no destroyer performing an ASW search will be going very fast (because it won't hear anything if it did)
#3 that is why they have Helicopters.. in ASW its not the Destroyer itself that does the hunting.. Its the Helicopters.
#3.3 that is why you work in pairs or more. One runs flank while the other listens then hopscotch commences.
So glad to have found your channel. Best naval warfare channel out there.
Your videos always brings back fond memories under water on a Sturgeon class of the early 90s. Thanks Aaron.
Love the intro cinematic. I do miss the more technical days of the whiteboards though xD. Alas, i understand why we cant have them anymore though :(. Either way great video as always :)
The sonar recording analysis was amazing content as well.
"You heard singing?"
Yes sir.
DAMN you You read my mind and stole my joke lol 6 minutes before I thought of the joke
Can you tell me more about the Murmansk brushing incident?
Let them sing
Ah, ol' Jonesy
S-3 AW from '85 to '90. Because of Clancy, the Akula (NATO = Typhoon) got everyone's attention. I was in awe of the DELTA IV. It just looks sinister. Crazy to me that i had to go down to cryto to check out photo files on certain hulls back then. Now its all over UA-cam. Go figure.
Is so great when a real expert is on youtube. It's rare, and appreciated.
Great video JT informative and entertaining as always.
Excellent video, thanks Aaron!
why didn't you call this "A Deep Dive Into Anti-Submarine Warfare" smh
I found this video fantastic. Great topic choice, great writing, good info and presentation. Thabks
Outstanding review! Love your stuff Aaron! Cheers! Speedy.
I had to do a double-take that this wasn't a Hypohystericalhistory upload by the title. this is the type of historian works/content that simply are timeless. i enjoy most of your videos but these deeper dives (pardon the pun) are truly your most special. thank u
And remember the tenants of submarine warfare ......
1. Safety of the submarine
2. Remain undetected
3. achieve the aim
You are always on the step of those 3, and you cant satisfy the lower goal if the upper is not being met .... its written in stone. Says an RAN Submarine Warfare Officer (oberon+Collins) for 14 yrs. ASW against or by a submarine is the most dynamic and changing environment to work in - physics, oceanography, mathematics, experience and the 'waaaa' (think of it as the submariners force lmao) they all come together to mess with the skimmers lives ... DBF
TIL semen is orks
Always wants surfacings to equal dives!!
@@ThePotentialFailure I don't get it?
@@larrybarton2351 very important balance sheet hahahaha
@@arcticbunyip5005 me neither
Thanks for this, Aaron. It helps me understand what you guys do. I have a friend from high school who spent eight or nine years in the Navy as a surface sonar man, but he hardly ever went to sea. If I had it to do over again, I think I would skip college and become an MT. I'd be retired by now.
Nicely done Aaron, especially after listening to how hard ASW had it against the Los Angeles attack subs. Times have changed
Outstanding introduction to ASW. It has always been the most cerebral of all Naval Service arms. That’s probably why I loved it so much. 😂❤
Thanks for brinings back the good content!
great video as always...its kinda funny you put this out because the last few days i have been trying to figure out if growlers are ever used in asw.
Thank you Mr. Aaron!
I will never forget reading Tom Clancy's novels- noone could tell a story about submarine warfare like Clancy could and The Hunt for Red October proved that!
I've got a signed first edition. I forgot to return it to the library before I moved. Oh well it's mine now.
Listening to this, brings back memories of you playing "Cold Waters" again
VP-17 crew 69-71 doing the russian subs until they had to go home!
Excellent coverage!
Nothing like sitting cold on a pattern and then seeing a feather from the flight deck. Another win for pilots ;)
You are an excellent speaker/teacher.
"Give me a ping Vashilly, one ping only pleashe" - Cpt Ramius, probably
Outstanding video Bro!. Stay awesome
Great video, Aaron...👍
Ahh, Jive returns! Great lecture!
Excellent brief. Just wondering if it is possible to jam active sonar like radar can be jammed?
Awsome topic thanks
Great upload
Everything I needed to know about asw, I learnt from hunt for red October
Not even close!
Aaron made a polished video I can sense it, will watch tomorrow with coffee. Dragging to task bar. But now it is Friday. Gotta blow some steam.
I serviced on Submarines conducted anti submarine war games...I'm tell you they are very good detecting submarine and the pinging from sonar is very loud!...The P3's used back then...Never missed!
Cool video to see since we have just had our four Poseidon asw recently delibered here in NZ.
this is good stuff man. i wish you had more real analysis instead of half assed current events
Love the videos and the content you creat here at sub brief! Keep up the good work! ASW makes me think of the movie Periscope Down 😅😂
Great vid!
From a fellow former bubblehead, good job Aaron!
Destin on SmarterEveryDay did a great series onboard USS Toledo during ICEX 2020, and a whole episode (249) "deep diving" into sonar
Love this niche channel
very interesting.
Interesting as always!
My perspective is weird since I was the very bottom of the ASW "team" in the '90s when ASW was considered a Cold War holdover that had no value. We had no support and invented tactics to make our outdated and inadequate equipment useful such as getting on top of a sub as staying there so they couldn't shoot us while we dropped grenades.
On paper the Oliver Hazard Perry was more than capable of doing ASW work, but reality was very slashed budget and paper fixed.
From your perspective, does the US currently have any ship classes that excel at ASW? If so, which are they?
@@thefreeaccount0 I haven't really kept up. As I understand it the surface game proper is all about helicopters and sonar buoys. So anything with helicopters should be able to do the job. Great thing about the buoys is they are active and disposable. A sub can't hide from an active ping at the same depth. Then they drop homing torpedoes on the sub.
@@gallendugall8913All our main surface vessels (Arleigh burke, Tico, and the upcoming constellation class frigates) can carry 2 helicopters. Japan uses their amphibious ready group equivalents for ASW as I understand it so maybe our LHAs or even LPDs could do the same?
Not sure you'll ever be able to share your stories, Aaron, but it sure would be nice!! Including the experiences of Norwegian P-3 crews!! 👍
Maybe one day!
@@SubBrief Can hardly wait!!!!
Love the content
ASW aircraft and helicopters expend a variety of sonobuoys, not "sonarbuoys". Hydrophones are only one section of a sonobuoy, which can utilize in some cases a lot of hydrophones to do its function. Overall, sonobuoys are quite capable and given the agility of the deploying aircraft (relative to the submarine), they can and often do stay way ahead of the submarine. Not called a "magnetic detection boom", it's actually a boom that contains a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD). It's in a boom to put the detector far enough from the aircraft fuselage, in order to minimize the magnetic variations (moving things mostly) of the actual aircraft carrying it. Consequently, a MAD detects changes in the Earth's background magnetic field, not the specific magnetic field of the submarine, so it needs a quiet background to work optimally.
I recall reading that subs can hear aircraft and helicopters flying above the surface. Is that true, and how reliable is it?
I was wondering if it would make sense to try to develop a ground-effect ASW vehicle. It might be able to to do the work of an ASW P3 Orion and an ASW helicopter, but with some advantages and fewer disadvantages. As a ground-effect transmedium vehicle, it could rest on the surface giving it almost unlimited dwell time. It could carry heavier loads than a similarly sized helicopter. It might also be able to carry a Magnetic Anomaly Detector like the P3 Orion but on a smaller vehicle. I wonder if it would be quieter than a helicopter or P3 Orion when moving and even less when resting on the surface. It might be able to drop sonobuoys and a dipping sonar/hydrophone when stopped.
Maybe another version could carry SAMs and act as AD/ABM pickets.
Hey Aaron, you're in my wheelhouse with this one. I retired in 2015 after a 24 year career as P-3 acoustic sensor operator. You could discuss this topic for a full day and still will have only scratched the surface.
I’m guessing the P3 emegency landing at Hainan Island in 2001 helped boost Chinese ASW capabilities
I heard somewhere that even if you use active sonar, subs can still hide. Sound will bend based on water density, and you can effectively hide from someone even if they have a direct LOS.
I miss Leroy. Those were the best videos.
I wonder if the white vans still park on his street.
I love ASW warfare. That’s how the RCN earned its colours and place at the kings table. This is a great brief. ASW is absolutely a team sport and you don’t have to sink a a sub to protect the convoys. It’s all about creating conditions that make it impossible for a sub to operate in close proximity to convoys. BTW ASW warfare also tries to create conditions where a submarine can not attack. In world war 1 and 2 that meant forcing a sub deep where it can’t use its periscope today that means forcing a sub to speed up were it is deff from its own noises.
They can't against truly good subs. Even when a carrier group is cooperating together the sub usually has to "let" them get a kill. A sub guy once told me there are to kinds of vessels in war. Subs.. and targets.
Give me a ping, Vasili. One ping only, please.
Interesting. How do other subs fit into ASW operations?
Yes, they do. I have a sneaking suspension that may be a topic all its own, however, it might be a fine line to walk on YT.
Nothing scarier as a sonar operator than when an aircraft finds you!…if it finds you. The best tool to find a submarine, will always be another submarine!
good energy
The most important aspect of this on the submarine's part which is under threat...is the submarine's OWN supporting fleet, particularly its air-assets.
To put it simply, in WW2, any submarine force at the mercy of an enemy with Air-superiority was destined to be destroyed sooner or later. The British submarine fleet in the North Atlantic suffered horrific defeat and losses while the Luftwaffe reigned supreme. The Dutch and British fleet of submarines in the Pacific and Indian Ocean were either wiped out or fled before the overwhelming power of Japan's Air arm and Aircraft carriers. Even the American submarine fleet in the Pacific with their radar specifically outfitted to warn them of oncoming aerial surveillance were struggling to just survive against Japanese aircraft and Carriers...until the Japanese aircraft and Carriers were PRE-OCCUPIED with hunting American carriers high in the sky opposing American aircraft (rather than perusing at low altitude on the deck looking for American submarines)....and when the Japanese Aircraft Carriers were destroyed, American submariners declared open season on Japanese shipping.
And ofc, we all know what happened to the German submarines. There's a reason why the German planners were anxious to build German Aircraft Carriers, knowing that the eternal nemesis of submarines were Aircraft...and Aircraft Carriers. Without Air-superiority, sooner or later, the loss of aerial coverage over the Atlantic would inevitably doom German submariners (even with good "intelligence", that intelligence would have been useless without proper aerial surveillance narrowing down millions of square miles of Ocean).
The same is true today.
Even with nuclear reactors, submarines are still very much part of the "team game", not only in ASW (Defense), but also in SW (Offense). Pretending they are some Lone-wolf, Single-ship-Fleet that can destroy an enemy fleet is utter foolishness - any Crew or Captain who thinks that way deserves a humiliating and implosive Death.
Submarines are still very ineffective at countering Aircraft, just as in WW2. What better reason than to have your own Aircraft Carrier and surface ships to at least provide area-denial to enemy planes, an avenue of escape, deterrence, etc, against those pesky Chinese planes?
It is misguided for a Submarine Commander in failing to advantage himself and his crew the benefits of his own Fleet's Air-assets, playing off the support, strengths and flexibility afforded by a mobile Air-base and its Air-superiority umbrella, just as it would be misguided to chain a submarine irrevocably to shotgun status in a fleet's turtle-like defensive posture.
Believe it or not a sub CO doesn’t really get a say in whether a CSG provides them air cover. More likely than not they are going to be on their own. Not ideal but thats why subs are useful, they can penetrate enemy airspace and waters to hit targets carriers cannot.
Sea Hunt had an episode with what looked like a spherical satellite of that era that drifted with the current to its destination.
I think you are great, I love you content and this is why I'm going to say this... you need to consider working out more and avoiding sugar. 💖💪
The Argentine Cruiser "General Belgrano" sunk by the British in 1982, was formally the USS Phoenix (AKA "Lucky Phoenix" during WW2). The USS Phoenix was the largest ship to escaped the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941 unscathed. During WW2, no one died in combat on the Phoenix.
5:40 Glad to be a Naval expert while being in the exact opposite branch lol
Could you please explain how an "advanced MOSS" lure works?
What are military growth stocks to invest in?
As someone whos life was created at NAS Moffet Field i just have to say a Orion would have been a cooler thumbnail than a May
I used to love the sound of the Orion propellers, as the P-3s flew over Mountain View.
📣 Goooo Team! 📣
The magnetometer boom, does it detect any metal like a conventional metal detector? Or only ferrous?
The MAD boom doesn't detect metal directly. It detects magnetic anomalies in the earth's magnetic field caused by various objects including large metal objects. Look it up.
To add, subs are routinely degaussed to reduce their magnetic signature.
I wouldn't want to be on the surface if there's a sub anywhere nearby in time of war. Yes, there are a lot of resources dedicated to ASW but the deck is still stacked against you if your enemy is operating properly. Aircraft would be targeted and destroyed by supporting forces and any sub that is cornered and feels like they're out of options will absolutely decimate a surface fleet in an attempt to get away and there's not a lot the surface fleet can do about it. If a sub has a contact, that contact is a target.
You should have Capt. Bill Toti (Ret.) on from ‘The Unauthorized History of the Pacific War’ Podcast. He was the skipper of the fast attack sub USS Indianapolis (SSN 697). Seems like it’ll make for an interesting video Jive.
Gotta know where that surface layer depth is and know when that sub moves to and from it
I'm proud
of you.
You barely mentioned helos. I really wanted to watch you break into a cold sweat.
sea state is important . the rougher it is the greater the difference in surface/submerged detection distance
w video, you got a great personality too!
Could you not use the prop wash from the sub to disturb the silt off the ocean floor making a cloud and then hid behind the cloud of suspended silt?
The possible engineering and acoustic problems you’d create would not be worth the minor scattering effect of the silt on sound propagation.
07:04 The Cone of Detection, or the Cone of Silence...
0:20 - that airbourne submarine is playing 4D chess!
Sub detection by active sonar from sub hunters - how far can the anechoic characteristics of a sub be pushed to prevent detection by active sonar? Are there only passive anechoic measures in use today or are there active ones in use or in development? Active meaningan an approach analog to the measures large telescopes use to eliminate effects of atmoshperic fluctuations.
Thank you for the compliment. I'm gonna be honest, when I enlisted in my country, I knew one thing: "I don't have what it takes to be a submariner". I jumped out of planes, fast-roped from helos and buildings, got to practice field exercises with the US Army & Marines, I had the pleasure to go to the US to practice hone one of my specializations (communications) because I was always chosen to be the interpreter and I spent more time on the US side than my own side, got to know almost my whole country (Chile), from the deserts of Atacama to the fjords of Punta Arenas and still, you couldn't pay me enough to get into a submarine, even though we use ours merely for coastal defense.
I once had a toy submarine when I was 18. After playing with it for three years I joined the army.😮
The P-3 Orion is a beautiful aircraft. From speaking with former USN pilots of the P-3, it’s a real beast but a very loved airplane.
They’re also apparently extremely rugged. See: WP-3 variant. You know, the ones that fly directly into hurricanes.
It is, but it’s outdated now. The P-8 Poseidon is a much better aircraft
Why doesnt the bridge extend further to the sides for easier docking for pilots, especially with the length of the ship, especially with the bridge being all the way at the front. Wont this interfere with depth perception??
I "subbed" immediately
thank you from a landlubber.