Sometimes, Trains are Just Better
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
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Here at RMTransit we like trains, and in today's video, let's talk about all the things trains can do that buses just can't.
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I think this is probably a worthwhile video to counterbalance this one, what buses can do!: ua-cam.com/video/RgMENVKYZDg/v-deo.html
Another argument on the passenger side: trust in longevity. A bus line can be scratched or changed in a day, any day. Tracks provide a feeling of stability over years, making switching to commute on it long term more reliable. If there is a metro line or a tram line, it is likely not going anywhere in the next years.
He did touch upon that near the end of the video, but you are very right. That said, there are limits to that strategy, most former tram systems were ripped out when their infrastructure came to the end of their life cycle and needed replacing. Transit operators just didn't have the money of the will to invest in renewing tracks (especially when in many places, tram operators are also responsible for the road infrastructure these tracks are in). CAPEX is lower per passenger, and can be written off over a longer period of time, but in the end, the investment itself is a lot higher. If that moment is badly timed...
I think it's a dumb argument. if certainty is required, a BRT or Bus with laws locking it in would have the same effect. It doesn't matter how it *looks* it matters how it functions. There is benefit to keeping the route locked in so that town and property developers can plan around that with TID, and buyers will know that they will always have service if they buy there, but it need not be a physical chunk of metal in the ground to make that so.
@@retabera people eat with their eyes. People also move with their eyes, if you want. Assuming a BRT can truly do the same things any LRT can do (which I think up to a certain level, but beyond that...), it's still 'just' a bus. People are irrational beings, we give about status, about readability, about colours... And currently, LRVs have a better reputation with both users and others than buses.
The longevity argument can be a double-edged sword. Buses are easy to extend as the city grows, but rail is fixed without huge capital funding to build new tracks, not to mention construction-related disruption to businesses. The result can end up being sub-optimal routing where you either have a forced transfer to buses at the end of the rail line (annoying), or buses duplicating the rail line in order to avoid the transfer (which is inefficient).
Also, rail is not immune from budget cuts. It can get its frequency reduced and/or lines abandoned for budgetary reasons, just like buses. Happens all the time.
not just for passengers but for businesses as well
being next to a train station is valuable, being next to a bus stop that might not be there in a year? not so much
Great video Reece! I would add one more positive aspect of trains: for some riders, a rail service can be easier to “navigate” from point A to point B, especially if they are not frequent/regular users of a system.
Why? Nothing about the train being on rails makes it easier to find. If you build a train station, but it instead has a road surface and buses, it'll be just as easy to navigate. Buses are only worse when you remove features that are platform agnostic, such as covered shelters/stations, off board fare payment, all door boarding, electric catenary power delivery, dedicated ROW, and smooth/maintained running surfaces.
@@calebjiang4056this is such a pointlessly argumentative approach to discussion. You know very well that you are just being pedantic here, because thats not how bus systems are designed.
@@cooltwittertagnot typically, but many are.
@@cooltwittertag Plenty of good BRTs out there that deliver rail-like service with the same amenities for around 1/3 the capital costs. BRT is far better for deploying large amounts of rapid transit at reasonable costs. In the US, just look at LA's Orange Line, Albuquerque's ART, and Cleveland's Healthline as examples. Even in SF (where I'm from), comparing the Van Ness BRT project to the Central Subway shows how much more cost effective BRT is compared to rail. (Central Subway cost was around 3x more for 1/2 the length and slower service)
@@calebjiang4056 The Van Ness BRT also is on the surface whereas the Central Subway is, well, a subway, and there are extra costs associated with tunnelling (with the advantage of being traffic independent, though).
So, let me tell you how it usually is for people in the Netherlands. Usually busses are used to get from the house to the trainstation and the trainstation to the destination.
Depending where you go, that bus can be a tram or a metro. Or even a trolleybus (Arnhem). Also, instead of taking the bus to the station, you can take a bicyle to - and even from (hiring one). That is, if you travel relatively light.
All in all, trains, trams, metros, bicycles & busses each have their role here. It's not a question of which one, but which where.
I would say that trains should be the main trunk, but for branching out, it's typically harder to construct, especially when residential areas are dense and hard to build over it. This is where buses thrives, as a feeder to trains or even direct buses to prime locations like town centers.
Also, terrain may be another struggle if it's not that flat, which is another use case for buses
Of course, but this is also why we have trams!
NJT's buses to New York and Philadelphia operate very much in this way; the Port Authority Bus Terminal is a big feeder for them, for example. In replying to RMTransit's comment here, I would say that yes, that is what we have trams for. But if the buses are able to go as fast as the trams, then is there really much added benefit from building a rail line? Many of NJT's lines make stops on a wide variety of streets, from near-urban to suburban (even highway-like), and at their full potential, can actually compete with trams. For instance, if you are riding a bus on the Weehawken part of the 158 route (to New York) and spot an HBLR train heading in the same direction (the HBLR does not go to New York), I'm being serious when I say you may actually pull ahead of it. Unsurprisingly, the 158 is packed at nearly all hours of the day; in recent years, I have only seen ridership (and frequency) increasing, particularly in Weehawken. Speed, I think, is a key factor to the success of the 158, as a distance that it can traverse in about a half hour would undoubtedly take the M5 (a New York bus) about an hour and a half. Of course, the contexts of each route are entirely different, but you get the point. And during rush hour, service on the 158 is quite frankly stellar, with buses about every five minutes and every one of them full to the brim. Finally, commenting about terrain, the northern section of the 158 route is extremely hilly; some of the inclines there would likely be too much for trams to handle. Not to mention the sharp turns going into those inclines. So in conclusion, I would say it doesn't matter whether a route is too busy for trams or not; in cases like the 158, buses truly are best.
Not that I'm saying trams are bad; they are of course quite good. If someday capacity becomes a serious issue, then of course that possibility may be explored.
See, that's one bus route out of at least 158 bus routes that is as fast and as good as the adjacent rail line. (The other 157 bus routes will be slower and worse)
(assuming they number them consecutively... let's say "one bus route out of many", "tongue in cheek")
Even in Germany some long distance coaches are faster (better) on some relations than trains. Mostly because of geography, 19 th century politics, and just enough ridership to fill a coach but not enough to justify tunneling through some mountains...
@@user-jk2zm7uq5s Meh, not necessarily. NJT operates way more than just 158 bus routes, but only about 70 of them go to New York, and those are ones I am referring to specifically. Sorry for not clarifying. Many of the longer distance routes using the Lincoln Tunnel run on an XBL (Xclusive Bus Lane) during rush hour, which is made out of the direction of traffic opposing the peak direction (AM to New York, PM to New Jersey). While it's not perfect, it helps significantly to make those longer-distance buses (which, after leaving New York, have considerable nonstop sections on our highways before stopping in very far away places) much faster than the horrible rush hour traffic which unfortunately, some routes remain subjected to. And of course, the "farther out places" generally have much better traffic than the Lincoln Tunnel. And this is the current state of things. If more people in New Jersey rode the bus, things could be even better. I am not saying that work-a lot of work-does not need to be done on bus priority in some places, but. . . I think I've talked enough.
My city bogota has a gold standard brt system, it’s a good system but it fell short when you consider the amount of people using it, my city has 10 million of inhabitants I think buses are useful for mid size cities but for massive city a train is a must have
No entiendo porque hacen una línea de Metro nueva pudiendo reconvertir esas líneas de Transmilenio en tranvías o metros, es por algo en particular?
Its the "Gold Standard" but a lot of locals do not like it, I think its a good example of where more trains should have been built long ago - at least they are now!
I certainly agree. BRT has its uses but also limitations. Surabaya (where my project is) has an urban population of 3 million and I'm not convinced that BRT is the appropriate solution. But, in a city like Jakarta - much larger than Bogota! - relying so much on buses, even with the world's largest BRT network, is not a greater way to bolster demand for public transport.
I didn't realise buses were so expensive. Makes it even weirder that Sydney replaces trains with buses from 12:00am - 4:00am
Running buses for those 4 hours gives time to do essential maintence.
Track work
@@Mgameing123 and the buses come from other parts of the network, where you have little to no service during the night.
@@Mgameing123 Isn't the new metro extension planned to run all night? Wouldn't that need maintenance too?
allows overnight shutdown at low demand times
$700,000 for a bus seems pretty expensive 😱.
A quick search suggests Norwich (England) paid £350,000 each for new single decker electric buses and £500,000 for electric double deckers. The Enviro400 diesel double decker costs around £200,000.
apparently the avg price of the new electric busses bvg uses is 500k €
Don't forget the used market. But yes buses are expensive because they are bigger than cars.
700,000USD is 560,000GBP - so more expensive for what it is but remember that the dollar is weaker than the pound
@@timothymeyer3210 yes but recce was referring to electric single deck busses when he said they cost $700,000 in the US. An electric single deck bus would cost around $450,000 in the UK
@@isaacrawlings1651the UK Enviro200s are shorter than the XE40s in the US. Other than that, US buses just cost more despite being worse in ride quality because of the lack in competition & over regulation.
Our office is in a suburb of Tel Aviv which recently got Light Rail
Before it opened, everyone drove here, despite really good bus service. Now a lot of our employees and people who come for meetings take the train!
Several people told me that without the light rail they'll either drive or take a cab - the bus is not a serious option
Thats really too bad, probably a sign that the buses need improvement in things that aren't service!
@@RMTransit Don't get me wrong, the buses are packed. They're also really new on average with relatively comfy seats, good way finding and lots of doors (at least compared to north America).
The issue is a general lack of bus lanes outside of Tel Aviv city center and a stigma with buses that makes a lot of people not want to ride them
@@ErelH I blame the American pilgrims who have re-settled in Israel and brought over their hatred for buses.
Or maybe buses just aren't as good?? Why are transit activists so eager to make up every reason they can rather than just listen to the preferences of actual transit users and non-users?@@crowmob-yo6ry
I've spent many, many visits travelling on Egged and Dan buses in Israel. But metros are certainly a gamechanger: last year, I tried out the Jerusalem line and it already desperately needs more or longer trains. The improved visibility of rail-based public transport definitely improves awareness of a public transport system.
Trains/trams are a more comfortable ride also. The only time I get any kind of motion sickness is on buses- not so with trains.
While I tend to agree with the overall message, the CAPEX and OPEX of infrastructure should not be a footnote at the end of the video. You also need more skilled workers on your payroll for maintenance of rail infrastructure, whereas bus infrastructure is more on the city, county, or other local authority. Unless you are also that authority (or that authority sends you some or all of that bill) your OPEX for infrastructure is reduced by that fact.
Exactly. Reece downplays the cost of building the tracks, which is a far bigger part of a new train system than the actual vehicles. Building the infrastructure makes sense for trunk routes and high-capacity corridors. However, buses can be deployed fairly quickly and service levels can be increased as fast as you can hire drivers.
@@scottalbrecht3578 Depends on if you already have underutilised infrastructure and are not building from scratch. In Latvia, the OPEX of passenger rail is lower than for buses. So we are trying to intensify rail services in order to minimize cuts to bus services. But for new infrastructure CAPEX there's often some higher level funding schemes available - like EU grants or US federal grants.
The way I see it, good rail infrastructure should actually save money for whatever authority maintains the road infrastructure because it takes lots of (increasingly heavy) personal and bus vehicles off the road. As a society, there ought to be significant gains from this (e.g. reduced wear-and-tear on roads, reduced pollution, fewer injuries and property damage from crashes, etc). In an ideal world, money would be re-allocated to rail infrastructure as direct and externality savings are realized... though reality doesn't often play as nicely of course.
All that to say, I imagine there might be some sort of a bigger, more holistic OPEX-like figure that filters out this kind of inter-agency cost spread, which might better represent cost to the government / society more broadly?
@@jl3782
"The way I see it, good rail infrastructure should actually save money for whatever authority maintains the road infrastructure because it takes lots of (increasingly heavy) personal and bus vehicles off the road."
That depends how often the buses run. If the bus isn't very frequent, the road likely gets far more wear from trucks than it does from buses.
@@ab-tf5flHowever, trucks pay a small fee for the damage they inflict; buses, on the other hand, are total freeloaders----they don't pay a single red cent for the surfaces they roll on, thus leaving those costs all up to the taxpayers.
In England - bus fares are capped at £2 per journey so to the end user they are not expensive compared with trains especially if fares are capped. A bus may be expensive compared with a train carriage - but you are assuming the rails are laid, stations are built and signals are in place. Laying a new line is very expensive and so in UK we go for trams and buses.
A great example of this is in Helsinki, where they (ahead of schedule) finished building a light rail line to replace a busy bus line!
0:42 Federal highway administration:
MOOOORRRREEE LAAAANNNNEEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nad no more buses, only CARS!
@@LouisChang-le7xo Preferably, with a single occupant. None of this communistical "car pooling"
Welcome to the total insanity of ROBERT MOSES....
Almost never the answer!
@@RMTransit Trains are almost always the answer
8:14 I say hello to the Ljubljana LPP bus right there. A town that has no urban rail, but it bloody needs it.
Hi, I've just recently moved to Ljubljana. Do you think the existing rail lines could be used more efficiently to act as an S-bahn, or do you think trams should be constructed? Because I remember them saying that after they build the passenger center, they will be able to do 15 minute headlines for local train services.
I was astonished at the capex of the buses in this video - $700,000??? I'm currently working on a project in Indonesia and looking at bus procurement; for diesel buses, I'm looking at around $150,000 and e-buses at $250,000. So, for sure, a capex of $700,000 per unit would sink most BRT projects!
The video also mentions labour costs but doesn't mention that station/stop costs for buses are zero, once built, whereas stations will have staff, even if ticket offices have been eliminated.
As for the capex of infrastructure, surely that depends? On one hand, you have eye-watering projects such as the UK's HS2 or NYC's 2nd Ave subway project but elsewhere, even in higher income countries, infrastructure costs can some in at a fraction of these two examples.
It's just so frustrating how so many American politicians hate passenger railways (local and intercity) with a burning passion and refuse to build them (or anything other than highways). Even more frustrating, many of the worst car-centric, anti-pedestrian, anti-train, pro-NIMBYism US cities have the perfect geography for a metro, light rail or regional rail system. Indianapolis, Tampa, Jacksonville, Tulsa, Columbus, Las Vegas, Memphis, the fake Birmingham, Tucson, and Detroit are just a few examples.
Please read these three great books on the subject:
"Moving Millions" by Stanley I. Fischler
"Beyond the Automobile" by Tabor R. Stone
"Public Transportation" by Vulcain R. Vulchic;
These three books will help clear up how everything went wrong with rail-based public transportation, and expose the main players in this transportation disaster the entire nation must suffer with....
Freight companies, Bus Companies, and Short Haul airlines don't like passenger rail as it cuts into their business.
@@linuxman7777Don’t forget airports since the smaller ones would be made obsolete with passenger rail.
Some of the larger cities on that list have almost no excuse for a lack of passenger railways given their population and tourism industry. Las Vegas and Tampa come to mind.
Also Detroit is the second-largest city in the Midwest and has no rail outside of downtown. Columbus is another large Midwestern city with no passenger rail.
@@linuxman7777 The freight railroads wouldn't mind one bit if their passenger service were as healthily oversubsidized as highway and air travel.
I actually didn't know that buses are the backbone of the public transport system... I thought it's the trains. Thank you, I learnt something new today!
While on a bus, I saw an Alstom Coradia iLint in Halifax!!!
...But was on the back of a freight train, presumably headed for Quebec.
The crowded bus journey took an awful lot longer on its path, which parallels the freight line, than a train trip would have taken.
as someone living in vienna, busses are by far my least favourite mode of public transport
1:49 wtf that’s my local bus line 😭 Slovenia mentioned raaah 🦅🦅🦅🦅🇸🇮🇸🇮🇸🇮🇸🇮
One point I have often made is that as energy costs climb, steel wheels on rails waste far less energy than rubber tires on pavement.
Another advantage of a train (or tram) over a bus is that tourists will be more inclined to use public transport. For example, a tourist in London or Edinburgh wouldn't really know how to use the bus but would likely know about the train (or tram for the latter). Like idk which bus to take in Edinburgh, but I definitely know the tram since I know where it goes. Speaking of which, the extension has definitely caused induced demand.
Don't most tourists use google maps to navigate cities? I live in Edinburgh but don't know all the bus routes, but google will tell me which ones to take between two points. And with fixed fares that can be paid with contactless cards tourists don't even need to speak to the driver. Just tap your phone/card on the reader and take a seat. Couldn't be easier.
@@kjh23gkMapping apps definitely make these things a lot easier (I remember visiting Cyprus and Google Maps didn't have public transport - getting a bus was a nightmare).
I think the hardest thing about buses for a tourist is finding the bus stop itself, and knowing when to get off. That's much easier on a train, as the stations are very obvious and each stop clearly marked. But yes, Google Maps has made it much easier for buses for those unfamiliar (as well as improved digital signage on many modern buses)
Energy efficiency and day-to-day maintenance are also important parts. Train wheels last very long, while bus tyres only probably replaced at least once a season, not mentioning pollution. And this is only one part.
Couple of additional thoughts:
1. Buses do have a stigma, particularly in the US. Trains are less stigmatized.
2. Another aspect, particularly important in northern US and Canada is winter weather. Buses have to fight the snowy roads and navigate with/around stupid drivers (Winter is a stupidity multiplier). Trains can operate quite efficiently in any winter weather situation. Articulated buses I imagine as being a total nightmare in winter.
3. Trains usually are much more ADA friendly. When we were traveling in LA using public transit (ugh), using the bus was a pain because we had to remove our toddler from the stroller and awkwardly hold it. On the train, we just roll it in and brake it.
Trains are less stigmatized? Hmm, have you ever been to NYC or CHI? How about LA or SF? Trains and the element riding them literally created the suburbs by scaring every valuable person away.
@@starventure I literally say in this comment that we rode in the LA subways. I have ridden on NYC metro and the BART. They are fine with their own problems. Yes, I know of the negatives and would still ride them over the buses.
@@PolkCountyWIProgressive Would you keep riding them everyday though? Day in, day out getting close quarters with humanities worst.
@@starventure I road Portland's MAX Blue line for almost an entire year. It saved me a butt ton of money and frustration. I read about 5-6 books during that time. The occasional homeless person didn't really bother me.
@@PolkCountyWIProgressive They are not occasional. They are most of the ridership now.
Amazing video, and another reason we shouldn't have ripped out the streetcar networks
We should have built those with more alternatives to street running, at least in suburbs that were new when they were introduced.
Can confirm about the service life of trains having been on a 1973 tube stock. Now I don't doubt its getting replaced for a reason (Especially if they improve accessibility) but 50 years of service is damn impressive, its basically an antique in car terms but still putting in the miles serving London.
I like to think buses/trams should be used as a short shuttle to pick people up between stations and people get off it to take the faster metro. And even funnier, if the metros also feed into even faster and larger trains. Almost seems like you’re gonna transfer into a bigger vehicle at every stop lol
Would have liked to see mention of the much greater energy efficiency of steel wheels on steel rails, together with lesser generation of tire particles (assuming you don't have one of those rubber-tyred gadgetbahns).
Please do more about great Brampton Transit - I drove a bus between 1991 - 2017 . Thank You for your excellent videos . 🇨🇦🏆🚌🚌🚌🚌🚌
Nice
Thank you for the work you did! 🫡 Would love a deep dive on Brampton transit
Good video, Reece, laying out the basic tradeoffs.
It is important to consider how frequent a bus service needs to be at a minimum? What is the minimum frequency that does not make ridership suffer. If ridership suffers (enough) it may lead to service cuts and ridership suffers more, thus a transit death spiral.
In the Australian city of Perth road planners were promoting BRT as the solution for servicing newly developing northern suburbs...until cost estimates showed that for the forecast ridership BRT would be more expensive than rail because of the cost of drivers. Eventually, rail was chosen, and uses a freeway median. In January 2024 the line had 1.2m boardings, while Perth's overall rail network had 4.1m boardings. For a North American comparison, this is slightly ahead of BART's 3.8m in the same month.
Yes, I've done a video on Perth and the rail network is excellent, they wisely use buses to feed into the main North South rail trunk!
I blame American car culture. Especially in the San Francisco area, car-addicted suburbanite NIMBYs with irrational fear of crime and homeless people too often refuse to ride BART.
Well done, Reece. You just angered Pinochet with the lessons of this video.
Trains 4ever
I would love to see you do a video on the story of San Diego's revival of their "trolley" network! It's my hometown and it's been a huge success even with all the sprawl, and keeps expanding! Can see all types of people on the SD trolley and it's (for the most part) very well kept with modern rolling stock. Even with San Diego's problems, they've made really good strides in expanding the transit network, making bus lanes, and overall making the city center more walkable.
You should do an examination video about Melbourne's tram network
I know at some point he did a Melbourne vs Toronto Tram network comparison, but not sure if that video was taken down
Nice to see all the cost values. Stuff I have no idea about making this video very information packed.
The right transport for each situation. Buses are perfect for transporting passengers towards better transportation systems.
In Scotland on ScotRail services ‘most but all’ now only offer Off Peak tickets in order to increase ridership.
Edinburgh have a 80p ‘not sure what that is in CAN dollars’ for two stops flat fare, and a max of £4 for a day ticket. Meanwhile Glasgow is or used to be £3:40 for a day ticket. However Glasgow and it’s districts, especially towards Inverclyde and through Paisley ‘a nearby town’ have different bus operators.
Where I’m located in Falkirk unfortunately buses are incredibly expensive, for the locals new train line prospects are certainly out of the window. However there’s a possibility for light rail alternative along pieces of freight line. But as Scotland is no longer part of the EU I can imagine there will be tough discussions on funding.
Anywhere great video as always
Always, next question.
Around 4 years ago, german city Wiesbaden wanted to build a tram (and connecting it to the existing next door city of Mainz tram network). Unfortunately, the route was very questionable, for instance, they wanted to cut all trees along the route instead of literally letting the tram drive on the street next to it. So they made a public poll and citizens unfortunately voted against this route and since this was the only plan, against building a tram altogether. Did I mention, their busses are always overcrowded and stuck in traffic? It's sad they voted against a tram network, since the funding was already there, as far as I remember.
Excellent work, keep up your efforts to inform the public about the efficiencies of trains over buses and certainly over private passenger vehicles. Moreover, just as in the past suburban development occurred with the motor vehicle in mind we now need to plan developments with passenger dedicated train lines just as the Dutch do in the Netherlands as they reclaim land from the sea.
A train has a maximum amount of carriages, not just because super long trains make efficiency lower, if the train suddenly any problem occurs, it would be pretty difficult to evacuate so many people, like fire safety problem or security problem, etc.
I would like to add that the Thameslink network already has ATO in passenger operation in the London Core area, whereas the tube is ATO on all but 2 lines i think
Reece, what is your opinion about guided bus systems? In Cambridge area we have a semi-network of guided buses which to me seem like 'a poor-person's tram system'. A major disadvantage is that the guided system track stops before entering the city centre, just where a dedicated transport network is really needed.
A couple of years ago, there was a proposal to build tunnels linking up the Cambridge busways, which would have included underground stops under the city centre. It's a shame that didn't happen. The reason the UK is such a pioneer in guided busways is because British cities have a lot of abandoned railway trackbeds through built-up areas - perfect for local transport corridors, but since most British cities demolished all their tram networks, they convert them for bus use instead, with a long term option of upgrading them for tram/light rail use later. So far, the busway in Edinburgh is the only one in the UK that ended up being converted to tram operation. I'd love to see the ones in Cambridge, Luton, Bristol, Salford, as well as the unguided ones in South Hants and Runcorn be converted to light rail.
Many UK tram networks also have the same issue, i.e. in Nottingham, Croydon, Manchester, Birmingham, Wolverhampton and the new line in Dudley, there are trams on old railway trackbeds right up until the edge of the city centre and then they trundle through regular traffic and even pedestrian zones at 10mph right through the busiest part of the line, while in urban areas of similar sizes in Germany, trams are often in mixed traffic lanes in the less busy parts of town and then they stop at underground stations in the more central areas. The ones in the UK could almost be full metros if they built their central tunnels.
Spain has them, use painted lines
@@lazrseagull54 Metrobus in Bristol really isn't much. There are a few tiny guided sections at the entrances to some short bus only roads, and although there are bus lanes on the routes, it really isn't very much for what it cost
He did make a video called "Trackless Trams: Yet Another Gadgetbahn."
Another great video.
Also heavy metros could have automatic operation without staff on trains, further reducing running cost, especially in places with high wage cost.
For converting existing systems you would have to factor the significant economic damage that laying off that workforce would case. In NYC alone, there are about 3200 train operators and 2400 conductors on just the subway. These are good paying, union jobs that don't require a college degree. You would ruin those people's lives if you eliminated all their jobs. Conductors in particular pay for themselves easily through fare enforcement, fare evasion is trivial on an unstaffed train.
@@mrvwbug4423 pandering to unions obsessed with job counts is keeping us stuck in the dark ages compared to European and Asian metros...
Would it be possible to have a video covering Pittsburgh's southern "library line" branch on the silver line? The city was looking to tear up the existing light rail line and replace it with a busway for "cost saving measures".
that is criminal
Pittsburgh's transit agency wishes it were just a bus agency. I think they see the city's light rail trains as just a distraction (that they are stuck with, unfortunately so in their minds) from the city buses.
@@1978dkelly If they were so concerned over ridership, they should find a means to incentivize housing supply along the corridor, provided people aren’t leaving the city.
The T needs more grade separation although Pittsburgh can function pretty well with a bus system, with a few rail lines within, much like smaller Japanese cities, because the geography of Pittsburgh has many hills and rivers, with many many walkable suburban nodes that are surrounded by mountains or the rivers.
If the bus feeds into the main line of the T, it can be quite useful but it probably isn't good to tear up existing infrastructure.
You compare 40-50 seats per bus, to the standing capacity of the subway car (30 seats, 210 standing). I don't think that's completely fair, you can also cram 100+ people on a typical articulated bus. Which makes the price per passenger a lot more even.
Except articulated buses are more expensive so the costs still wouldn't even out by much
I see Berlin in the intro, I like.
Why are bus tickets always way cheaper than train tickets then? Especially when you compare London buses and Thameslink (which have massive and efficient trains)
i love that at all video starts you show the rem of my city
Can anyone point out to me if the 2.7m CAPEX for a train car in this video includes the rail infrastructure to run it? Or are we counting the existing road infrastructure for buses on the same footing as the rails for trains?
In most cities, rail systems are only as good as their feeder systems (walkable, bikeable, busses).
So…in the short term NYC's MTA should replace its overcrowded buses with double-deckers or Bendy-buses. Then Trams? Because bus service here stinks.
Buses have all the disadvantages of cars as well as the disadvantages of shared transit. You have to share space with people AND you're still stuck in traffic.
trains
Hello Reece, Love your videos!
Could you make a video on my city’s public transport system? Adelaide, South Australia.
We have 6 train lines (4 mainlines and 2 branch lines) and 3 tram lines (1 main line and 2 branch lines. We also have a strange bus-train hybrid called the O-Bahn, which is like a bus but on train tracks.
Although I do admit, our public transport is kinda bad. There’s 20 minute frequencies at peak hour I believe.
Can you please make a video about V/Line & Melbourne trams which you kindaish said you would do in your Melbourne Metro explained
Here in the US, our transit agencies who run hourly buses and don't get riders somehow think light rail would solve the problem, but lack of network from buses then comes in. Also, if there's no existing demand, there's no way to know if anyone will use the light rail at all. I guess us Americans are a developing country working on the basics
and there are even cities who think brt is good as light rail and think the problem with low ridership does with buses themselves, not service. Was just watching Canadian vs American Transit. For some reason, outside downtown service simply dissapears. Compare Uptown Seattle, with a web of frequent buses (and soon our light rail gadgetbahn that Reece seems to absolutely despise very deep down but WSBLINK should be isolated from the main "1 Line" completely and built as a light metro cheaper since its already going to be grade seperated but nvm) while Queen Anne Hill, still with decently dense development and a potential place to develop insanely from high rises instead of five over ones due to its proximity to South Lake Union/Downtown, has a single frequent trolleybus along Queen Anne Avenue, and all other routes are "not frequent" by King County Metro standards (more than 15min) but more like nonexistent.
This is in a city somewhat hailed for (fake) urbanism and good (actually miserable but not the worst) transit derived almost completely from buses because Sound Transit builds induced demand parking, not trains. I guess it's really "flood your city with bus until you figure out train. I can't imagine how bad it is in the suburbs like Snomish County, which has NO ROUTES running more than every 20 min other than Swift BRT.
Sorry, I had to go on a rant, I guess I forgot about your article on your website called "Everyone thinks their transit is worst"
thew problem is also that American cities refuse to allow for development near transit stations and then wonder why ridership is so anemic (LOOKING AT YOU CALIFORNIA). Half the benefit of transit is the new transit-oriented development it enables
@@mohammedsarker5756 Because in the US, there is a certain kind of person who gravitates towards housing near train stations, and who tends to end up destroying the place. It is easier to wreck an area in the US than it is to build one up.
Not sure if you've heard about Bill c-371, but this will give passenger trains right of way over freight. This supports the argument for trains even more (but the bill still has a long way to go...)
I wonder if the next LRT will be in Winnipeg MB or even Saskatoon SK. The bus is more versatile as it can go to housing developments where the homes are spread out, bringing people to the main line rail
WADR the London Routemaster (RM) busses ran for over fifty years but where often 'rebuilt' two or three times during that time at the Aldenham depot (aka Aldenham Bus Overhaul Works). As with any public transport all is good until the employees decide to take industrial inaction and the system shuts down. With a 'tag' like yours I am surprised you have not put out a video on you namesake.
jakarta/indonesia video when?
Given how chaotic operation can get on a regular street, automating buses is a really bad idea. It could applied to segregated BRTs but that's about it. Operating automated vehicles alongside non automated ones can only be safe on a rail line when there is only the track and the signaling to worry about.
That's why automation will always, for a long time, refer to segregated infrastructure, so for metros and trains.
I'll die on that hill if necessary.
Adam Something would love this video haha
Huh
Can you do a video on making transit systems more resilient? (Limiting effects of disruptions on systems)
But it's never the question whether to install busses or trains, but busses or trams. Depending on the topography/street layout busses can be faster and quieter than trams. Especially trolley busses, which last similarly as long.
I'm currently pondering if a tram line instead of a trolley bus line is beneficial, but if your city already has a tram system, the synergic effects you can create with it benefit the system more than the trolley bus and it's a good opportunity to create more separated ROW with grassy tracks which also benefits the microclimate
The case for using trams is going to be stronger where there are alternatives to street running they can use, such as wide boulevard medians. Trams also must provide a type of service that does not require a vehicle that can swerve.
3:02 Keralis: for the bendy people ❤
Slovenia mentioned!!!!!!
There definitely is a psychological aspect to buses versus trains, even if it doesn’t really make sense or isn’t accurate. I know a number of people who will ride out light rail, but won’t take a bus. Sometimes people just feel overwhelmed by the bus system and aren’t sure to go or are afraid of taking the wrong bus. Google maps makes this irrelevant for anyone with a smartphone, as it will tell you exactly where to go and what to take, but people are still bad at giving it a chance. They just feel more confident taking a train for some reason.
rail is more comfortable and in NYC at least, more reliable. It's a lot easier to look for the subway station than it is the bus stop and to make sure you're on the "right side." The pathfinding for buses has a lot of room for improvement. Rail is also good because it induces development along the route, thanks to the "permanence" the fixed nature of rails provide
"Sometimes people just feel overwhelmed by the bus system and aren’t sure to go or are afraid of taking the wrong bus." Count me among them. Though as a kid I regularly took the 609 bus from New Jersey into Philadelphia and back.
Except Goolag Maps panders to car-addicted American suburbanites by only showing reviews that hyperfocus on "parking".
Trains are also often safer, even when the fare is identical to a bus. Transit operators usually put more security on trains vs buses and they're often cleaner and better kept.
That psychological aspect being the fact that buses, like cars (and trucks), are AUTOMOBILES. People see that a bus and a car are the same basic machine, and will NOT get out of their cars to board a bus.
Do a video about the basler s-bahn a international s-bahn in siwtzetland its really cool🙃. Basle is located on the Rhein betwen france and germany.
trams and monorail can also selfdriving
Did you see the automated night bus in Seoul? While staffed for now, I think the plan is to make it fully automated one day. Wonder if you have thoughts on that.
Thanks for making this video! It really provides the deeper context behind all the other videos you've made about how so-and-so city (e.g. Seattle) built the wrong form of transit (light rail) than they should have (fully grade-separated metro). While you *touched* on the reasons in those videos, this video really dives into them and makes the argument much more clear.
It also gives me ammunition in arguments with the NIMBYs who say we shouldn't waste all this money on rail when buses suffice (today). :)
I don't get why so many people hate light rail and act as if metro is always better.
Buses compliment rail passenger transport as buses are:
- They can run to destinations where heavy or light rail tracks do not exist.
- When there are relatively small numbers of passengers, are cheaper to run than trains, with usually just a driver required to operate the service.
- New services can be established very quickly.
- Low emission urban metro, regional and inter-regional buses are rapidly becoming available.
- They can operate on a route until there are sufficient passengers to justify a train service.
Your financial argument is really good, since it doesn't focus on one being "better" than the other for complicated reasons.
I'd say buses are the backbone only in places where there is no rail. Buses complement rail. A town with no public transport will start with buses, sure, but rail is what they need to be heading towards.
Too bad that on Vancouver Island, rail service is now firmly consigned to the past. _All_ ground transportation on Vancouver Island-as well as Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland-now requires rubber-tired vehicles.
Could you please make a video about the elevated trolleys on CDMX? And if theyre a real solution or a gadgetbahn
7:03 *Cries in american*
Why?
I like trains
i think initial investment is the biggest issue, even if in 30 years trains would be cheaper a lot of cities can't afford to buy in and a lot of people are scepitcal when they see big price tag. just as example new tram line in krakow costed 600mil pln (~150mil $) for 5km of track, thats a lot of money and you need a lot of political will to do that, and metro will probably never be build because both initial investement and operations are too high.
Unfortunately, many of those same cities cannot afford long-term road infrastructure.
isn't that a premetro though, so not exactly a new tram line per se? The main issue I have with Kraków is that it's infested with cars. And unlike North American cities, it's a recent(ish) problem because as well, not many people had cars until 1989. Seemingly every side street, sidewalk, square etc. is turned into a parking lot, with pedestrians getting maybe 40cm of sidewalk, if they're lucky, and there is next to zero cycling infrastructure in the city. The main drive for a metro in Krakow seems less to improve capacity for passengers, because Krakow is pretty good, but to avoid removing cars from the city centre. Krakow could give Amsterdam a run for its money with the right leadership, but the mentality of people here in Poland is still that a car is a status symbol and we can, must, and should make all trips in a car.
@@brick6347 nah 600mil was for tram to górka narodowa (tho I think it includes p&r), prametro was quoted at 5,8 mld in 2021. Kraków is slowly getting better and recent pools suggest that people are ok with pricer parking and reducing cars in center
You can often get a loan
Take that ITDP!
San Diego's proposed Purple Line Regional Rail has an average stop spacing of almost 3 miles. I argued that this was too wide of a stop spacing given the Purple Line runs through dense areas. But someone else argued that we could simply run BRT lines parallel to the Purple Line and use that as the "local" service. Any thoughts?
I blame NIMBYism
So, not only would you be forcing interchanges on many potential passengers - hardly an incentive to use public transport - but you would have two sets of infrastructure costs rather than one to cover the same route? I just don't see how that could be viable.
the TTC Buses & subway are accelerated but kind of new & up-to-date then iG to MTA.
I live on the West Island of Montreal and we're getting our REM hopefully by the end of this year; but to the point of this video, yes, train would be great for whatever will end up being what was the REM de l'Est; but there is so much contention it seems building a train is a non-starter and they will have to continue to rely on buses. You calculated the CAPEX between bus and train but not the OPEX, but mostly I am curious about the OPEX when not at capacity; do trains still beat buses if both have only 5% of capacity in passengers? I ask because my West Island buses are often close to empty, and today I am taking an EXO train which will also be mostly empty.
General rule in the UK, and I assume the rest of Europe, is one single deck train car cost £1m, so how the hell does a NYC Subway car cost US$2.7m??? That's £2.1m. Why are they that expensive?
In New York, everything is expensive. And that R211 doesn't even have open gangways 😮
4:29 Indian EMU's has 16 to 21 Railcar
what transportation better for mountainuous layout?
Trains usually operate off road to avoid traffic buses run in the same road
Reece, what are your opinions on the ART buses that Kuching in Malaysia plans to run?
Please make reaction on Yangon Bus Service.
4:38 I think a thing to fix this is have most cars on an EMU be powered, for instance BART trains, which are up 215 meters long, still have a whopping 1.3 m/s^2 acceleration. I think older EMU's or EMU's that have more unpowered bogies than powered bogies can be rebuilt with said more powerful traction motors to reach higher acceleration. With locomotive hauled trains, I see no reason why you can't have 2 locomotives on a long train; I saw this video of 2 MP54AC's hauling 10 bilevels with astonishing acceleration; if those were electric in sure they could have even higher acceleration, even when hauling 12 car bilevel trains. You could perhaps have a national lower restriction of how many cars a locomotive can haul, so you can have a desired acceleration for high frequency lines. I find it silly that GO doesn't run double headers on a regular basis, it would significantly increase acceleration, even with diesel locomotives (though electric is best).
One more thing I thought about to increase acceleration is a hypothetical magnetic suspension system that has the weight of the carbody and passenger weight "lifted off" the cars bogies a few millimeters, so that the only weight you really need to haul is the bogies and suspension systems. I think this could work because most of a Maglev's energy (this tech idea was inspired by Maglevs lol) is used to accelerate it, not really suspend it, so it could work without insane electricity. EMU's are already really good at high acceleration, so this hypothetical technology would really benefit coaches hauled by locomotives. Some of my calculations put some locomotive services at almost, if not at, EMU performance.
I don't think magnetic suspension would help
If all of the weight of the car and the passengers was taken off, the bogies would wheelslip like mad and you'd be going nowhere since there is too little pressure between the wheel and rail. You won't get any extra traction by decreasing the weight.
And you'd still need to impart energy on the passenger car which would come from the traction between the wheel and the rail in order to make it move. Either way, you're limited by how much energy the motor can convert to kinetic energy
Cost of infrastructure is the sticker shock that’s preventing trams from being implemented in my city in the US. Everyone wants them. Our DOT and transit authority doesn’t know how to scrape the $ for capital. I also live in Michigan, which historically has practically zero state funding for transit (both capital and operating), but somehow we always scrape together $500M for another lane on the interstate from the Fed. Go figure. But MI is quite poor when it comes to infrastructure investment. Major road projects almost always get subsidized with Fed dollars. All forms of transit are subsidized, not just public transit.
We could apply for Federal grants to build new tram infrastructure, which can be used towards capital costs, but often not operating costs. As you mentioned, operating expenses with trains can be much lower than for buses. This might help us out in MI, since our state $ allocation for public transit lurches from one funding crisis to the next (how much public transit gets is based off the state government’s feeling of public transit that year). The challenge is that many states apply for the same Fed grants to build new tram/LRT/train infrastructure. There is competition across the nation for these capital grants. It’s not guaranteed you win funding. The only tram we have is the QLINE in Detroit, and 80% of its upfront funding came from private investment.
All that needs to be done is REDUCE STUPERHIGHWAY SPENDING, and apply the funds to rail-based passenger transportation.
I blame the auto industry lobby. It doesn't help that economic nationalist politicians endlessly pander to them.
Trains are better if you have the upfront capital. But when immediate transit needs have to be met, it would always be buses.
The problem is trains are very limited in where they run, I'll take my city San Francisco, BART has 8 stops in the city, 4 of which are clumped together within 3-4 blocks of each other, and all largely on the eastern side of the city, one is fairly central as far as east/west but is on the southern edge of the city. Caltrain has a few stops most of which are not very well used, also on the eastern half of the city, south eastern, and well if you wanted to ride anywhere else in the city you're hosed... unless you take buses which can get you most anywhere. The upside of the train is that it can take you out of the city which the bus is very limited to mostly because SF buses really only operate in SF (a couple small exceptions) and you need other county buses who have very limited stops in the city.
Thats a problem with your local trains, not trains in general
So many problems with busses... Low passenger to driver ratios, bunching, getting stuck in traffic, slow speeds, inefficient routing, fuel costs, refueling time, engine/transmission costs, they go through a lot of tires, small/crowded, slow to board/unboard, etc... The secret to a good transit network is economies of scale...trains can achieve this but busses struggle.
The points raised in the video make sense, but only if passenger demand is expected to be so high that operating frequency needs to be set by capacity, rather than how long passengers are willing to wait. If passenger demand is such that maintaining wait-time standards with buses involves a half-full bus running every 15 minutes, the capacity advantages of rail over bus buys nothing (unless, of course, the intention is to degrade service by replacing a bus every 15 minutes with a train every two hours).
Because passenger demand is only this high on a very limited set of corridors, even cities with world-class rail transit systems still have, and will always have, big bus networks to complement the rail.
If buses are not run at a turn up and go frequency, people need a way of knowing when to turn up at their stop, if they need to look at a timetable, they should be able to do so before getting there. They also need a way of telling which stops are timing points, for example of the sort of thing I mean, every terminus is to be a timing point, as is every railway station served by those buses. Early departures from timing points are not permitted.
Which is better? A half-full articulated bus running every 15 minutes (if ridership needn't suffer at that frequency) or shorter half full buses running more frequently.
Trains are also efficient because they lose less energy through heat and friction, and convert more of that energy into useful work. There's a thermodynamic limit to how efficient a bus can be, so its maximum potential will always be less than a train. The bus's only real advantage is that it has access to lower-cost rights of way, so the overall energy cost for the full nexus of bus operations is less than that for a high-precision, meticulously engineered rail line. Lower input, lower output.
True, but when operating a bus or train, the cost of energy is usually very cheap compared to the labor and capital. Reduced fuel cost is not sufficient justification to spend billions of dollars building train tracks - buses running every 3-5 minutes being unable to keep up with rider demand is.
@@ab-tf5fl you are correct. I should clarify, that by "energy" I don't mean just the fuel/electricity, but rather the entire nexus of energy demand across the entire system, including the calories spent and wages earned by operators, the time spent by riders, subsidies derived from running vehicles on DOT-owned roads vs directly maintained trackage, the friction created by rubber tires vs steel wheels, the complexity of railroad signaling and electrification systems, the amount of concrete and rebar needed for new construction, etc, etc.
Basically what I'm saying is that buses operate at a lower energy paradigm than trains, that they can do more with less. Indeed there's a point when induced demand will outstrip capacity, which is when higher energy paradigm modes become desirable: trains require more energy than buses to enable their existence, but they also metabolize energy more efficiently, such that they incur exponentially greater returns in the form of shorter journeys for more people per unit of operating cost.
However, reduced time wastage is one of many advantages of rail transit.
Since buses are automobiles, they tend to get stuck in traffic jams and at red lights. Whenever the bus is stopped at anything other than a bus stop, the driver gets paid for doing NO WORK at all!!
@@botmes4044Electrified rail vehicles have an advantage that buses, even electric buses, don't have; regenerative braking that returns energy back to its source for reuse elsewhere.
Engine-powered buses, once they apply their brakes, the energy is wasted, gone forever.
@@user-dj7wv5ok2x indeed, that plays into the concept of converting more energy into useful work. Trains are awesome.
Trains
I will say right of the bat that buses don't already have to be as expensive as Reece says. I know in a 2019 article where it was stated that buses like the yutong e12 electric bus (which is very widely deployed in Denmark where I'm from, and considered very reliable and easy to maintain) cost just 378.000 USD in 2020 prices compared to say $503.000 for an Iveco/Heuliez gx337 electric, $558.000 for a Mercedes eCiraro, and $635.000 for a MAN Lions City Electric.
Now these are 2020 prices after all but still, just goes to show the capital cost for a bus isn't always super high, even for electric models. If anything the high prices in North America might be because of the US. And Canada's protectionist policies like the BuyAmerica Act, creating a price gouged bubble.
Tfw only metros would be all you need if all residents lived in apartment buildings including amenities near metro stations in a line
true, but buses are the feeder networks, not the main lines.
Also there are quite a few cities who built so much in the past that theyve got it all covered