Pt 1 Live Sound Subwoofer Configurations
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2024
- Part 1 of a series of videos describing live sound subwoofer setups and designs including cardioid and endfire
00:00 Intro and bio
01:22 Sub array aspects overage, feasibility, sound quality
02:51 double 18, horn loaded, directional subs
04:30 Endfire array
05:43 Cardioid array
06:52 Passive cardioid and mechanical cardioid single box cardioid subs
09:15 Conventional non directional sub array coverage
12:00 Directional subs, array angle and L shaped arrays
13:30 Arc array
13:51 Outro
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Dave, thank you for all your videos! They are always informative, easy to understand and real world, I do not think a person could ask for more
OK - as old as this Video is - still spot on! Dave, love your explanations and Harry on Vocals - Stormtrooper on Bass! Thumbs up and Thank you!
Awesome and thank you
Heym thank you Peter for taking the time to post a positive comment, I appreciate it and rock those skills up!
Great explanation of what physically happens in the real world. Keep them coming!
Thanks very much for taking the time to do these, Dave! I front a 6pc GB band while simultaneously doing sound, and I imagine even our relatively small-venue audiences would thank you as well, if they knew how much you've helped me fine-tune my mixing abilities!
Really great videos!
@thaflyinsoundman I have configuring cardioid with multi cab setups, delayed arc setups, arced setups, flown subs fairly well sorted and upcoming so far.
Great start Dave - Thanks.
Would really like to some coverage of the orgasmatron and the whole center-stage bucking sub that you were using to flatten out power alley. Hearing that setup was believing - I've never heard such an even coverage as with that setup!
Dave you are awesome my friend, since i have started my sound mixing research and learning the boards to just what you went over, I have picked up so many great learning curves & tricks that you do in a everyday environment that you share, Man I wish i lived in Cali so i could come work for you for free just to work off my debt that i owe you !!! When ever you have a gig in Texas e-mail me, no shit I'll come work for ya for free lol, check ya later, Hatch..
Awesome info. Thanks.
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5 minutes in and my mind is melting trying to process all the information.
Thanks, this really helps!!!!!!!
this man is brilliant. i would LOVE to do this for my job in the future
I recently tuned a PA at a small church and the room dimensions caused an opposite effect than what you describe here. 1 sub on either side of the stage. Power alleys were off center on either side of the room, and a huge dip right in the center. After much testing, best configuration was both subs together right in center, in front of the stage. Its crazy how physical low end really is.
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great video! i would also really like to know more about the orgasmatron set-up! :) keep it coming!
I'm "sub'd" Mr Rat - Thanks for the awesome masterclass.
@timlnesbitt The McCauley got loud and went low. As a sub sub the have some application, as a primary sub, their size, weight and power requirements make them a bit unwieldy
@P90xFitnessExpert Thank you!
When you say "Power Valley" is that essentially standing waves?
harry potter on vocals, and a storm trooper.
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Hej , thanks for posting the video. I have a single active bandpass 18" (131 dB) sub and two active good quality 1"+12" tops (128 dB), dB technologies The top speakers are limited to play down to 90 Hz through a built in crossover in the stereo sub.. We will use this system for 5 member band reinforcement. I have no idea where to place the single sub for best coverage. I now in the middle between the tops is good, but a bit difficult with the singers being present :-)
Hi Dave, Thanks for the Tubes a really informative insight into the industry. What are your thoughts and experiences on Down Firing Sub Woofers? Thanks
What do you mean by down firing subwoofers? Are you talking about flown subs?
I know this is an older video, but I’ve always had this pipe dream of having a venue where you dig into the ground underneath the stage and you play subwoofers under there and you create a big long horn that opens underneath the stage and is the exact perfect dimensions for the room.
Why could you not do something like that? Let’s say money doesn’t matter on this you’ve got all the money in the world could you build a gigantic horn underneath the stage and put subwoofer drivers in it and have the ultimate and low end frequency response?
Hmmm, I've seen pics and info of someone doing something similar. A Google search should find it.
As far as a horn, I think just making the floor in big sub array would get everyone close to a sub source and therefore, away from summation and cancellations.
That said, a new issue of the giant floor sub being 0ms delay everywhere may create issues with the main pa which will have time offsets that increase with distance.
thanks a lot Dave, but what happened to camera mic? sounds muffled compared to your old videos
You have my dream job
Hey Dave, would you mind covering a center sub setup in your next video?
Hey, thanks for the video! Where is the promised part two? :)
here is part 2 and 3
ua-cam.com/video/B-3pURYOwfw/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/aSZK9Altvm8/v-deo.html
@fauzip My old camera, Canon G9, died. I am now doing videos with my Nikon D300S but I guess the audio is not as good. Will try putting the camera closer and opening up the lens angle. Closer mic'ing should help.
Im picking up some Renkus Heinz sr2 boxes in the morning, im looking for an appropriate sub that will make your chest hurt,,, I have a chance to get some danley th115s or I could go cheaper with some fr250z eaw boxes,,, what would you suggest for a small southern rock band setup.
The Danley TH115 will probably be the better match to the RH SR2 cabinets. It produces deeper bass, somewhat less chest-pounding (a conventional front-loaded horn box is the best in that respect) but will be a good match in output for the SR2.
By power alley I am referring to the summation peak of two equidistant sources, "power valley" is a loose term I use to refer to the primary cancellation nodes just to the left and right of power alley.
Can you do a subwoofer shoot out, i am trying to do the same but don't have enough money for one but am testing some different brands and custom boxes with different drivers, Ev Jbl,Eighteen Sound, Rcf, And B&C + venting and dimensions. Also a quick question on having cancellation in a smaller venue. Do i need to delay one side of the subs, or is it mainly the room i'm in.Usually 4 double 18" max.
THANKS
rcf is the way to go or jbl
JBL PRX818XLFW 1500W 18" Powered Subwoofer (preferably) or
Yamaha DXS18 800W 18" Powered Subwoofer.
Whatever subs you buy don't mix the brands, stick with the same brand and type it's easier to control the sound.
Dear Dave Rat....I have a pair of old LEM 18" (horn design) subs. The actual sub driver is situated "hidden" in the bottom of the subs facing upwards. I feed them signal below 100hz through a stereo behringer Graphic eq that has a dedicated mono subwoofer (low pass) output. The subs are paired with two 15" full range EV speakers on the top fed with full range signal, obviously not an ideal scenario due to conflicting low frequencies... Since the subs are not of generic direct front facing driver design, how much phase cancelation is there between subs and tops? Its really confusing :P Thanks...
Hey i wonder if you can do a new video of sub woofers with what dsp and time alignment for left and right stacks of subs. i only have a dbx drive-rack which you know i cant really delay left and right to get a power alley . unless i send more outputs from the midas m32 or x32 which is all i have. can you do a video of this issue. only have ground stacks so i use the subs to lift up the tops. i always have a problem with no sub down the middle or maybe some quiet spots to the left n right.
Hi Dave, I studied your explanation about the cardioid setup, but I am a bit puzzled. Almost all video's on cardioid use the method of reverse polarity and time delay on the back speaker, but if I understood your video correctly, you say the setup where the back speaker starts firing and the front speakers are delayed is a better solution.
I that correct?
And if so, is there also a phase reversal on the front speakers?
Cardioid is the rear speaker delayed and polarity reversed.
End-fire which is another method with superior forward energy and sound but less rear rejection is where the front speaker is delayed and polarity is not reversed.
Both offer a "cardioid" coverage but endfire is less directional
@@DaveRat Thanx! I, got it :)
I thought the end fire solution ment placing speakers behind one another with 1/4 wavelenght spacing.
Practical - I am experimenting with 3 greenboy Fearfull subs as part of a small PA set I'd like to use outside.
If I put them on the ground next to eachother, center stage. Two facing forward, one facing backward in the middle.
Then if I delay the two forward firing subs, would i than get the maximum output at front and some rejection in the back? Or does that solution only work when you stack them on top of eachother?
It does not really matter which way the rear subs face or whether they are stacked or behind.
What matters is the location of the sound sources in relation to each other.
Think of the speaker as a mouse maker.
Noise comes out, travels and then adds or subtracts from nearby noise makers.
It the timing and polarity is aligned it will add, if it is delayed or polarity reversed to cancel, then it will subtract in that direction
@@DaveRat
Okay, thanks again! I will do some experimenting :) see what works out best
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So if you're running a simple 1 sub / top per side, i.e. small band/club gig is there any benefit to rotating the subs to the side or since they're almost omnidirectional is there zero benefit?
Hmmm, slightly if it's a double 18. I covered all that in depth during the zoom chat I did last week and released.
@jpldrummer I will expand with one or two more videos, not sure how fr into vortex I will go but will cover more complex arrays and solutions.
Dave Rat good day Dave, I know you sell audio equipment, do you sell used system? You can send me a quote to ebenezer.umudi@yahoo.com or suggest somewhere to me, thanks
wait wait.... is that a behringer? mixer?
With subwoofer, are they better elevated or floor
That is not a simple answer. On the floor they are closer to the audience, so louder but flown the volume can be more even. Flown can be a problem for venues with sloped floors. Many variables, music type as well
@@DaveRat room is more of a narrow rectangular shape. we have 2 main speakers flown right on top of the stage and we're thinking of adding a sub.
Hmmm, I would use a prediction software. Even if it's for a different brand, use similar box types
@@DaveRat ?
Download soundvision and mess with it. It's really cool and fun and will give you new skills.
I have a Totem Storm sub and it has 3 drivers. One on each side that are passive and one in the front that is active. It is not a ported sub either.
that would be a passive radiator design wherein they side facing drivers act as a port that has additional mass, lowering the resonant frequency. the down side is a sacrifice of transient response, as in their lows are slower and more ringy. the up side is extra LF from a smaller box.
Thanks, I though maybe the two passive drivers were to counteractive standing waves. Right now I am using an Energy 8" sub on my computer that has a downward port. What subs do you recommend for home stereo that is fast and punchy sounding?
LEGO!!!!
Why is the bass cranked up at live concerts completely out of proportion to the music? Records aren't mixed that way. I saw Mark Knopfler and the bass was so heavy it was like a rap concert - maybe sub woofers, but why for Mark Knopfler. At one point the guy in from of us, who was a pro mixer, got up and went back to the sound board to talk some sense into them but nothing changed. I just saw Joe Bonnamassa and the concert was destroyed by the bass cranked above all the other instruments. The last four concerts I have seen have this problem. Unless this changes I will not attend big concerts anymore. What is the deal?
Same reason race cars go faster than street cars
I think this is a good opportunity for you to go into the live sound production business and show those guys how to do it
maybe if the sound guy got to sit in your seat and listen to the mix he probably would adjust it accordingly, most guys really want to do a good job and make it a pleasant experience for the audience
@@stevencancel1727 😅🤣😂😆 The problem is I'm an old curmudgeon.
I would say that the sound of concerts vary so drastically that it would be tough to generalize. There are some great engineers out there that mix well balanced shows and loads and loads of engineers that mix like a kid who just got their driver's license drives.
IMO you've taken a sound quality and efficiency hit by choosing reflex over horn loaded. You will never beat the thd, group delay transient response, efficiency and 'feel' of a properly horn loaded/waveguided subwoofer. But of course I am a horn/waveguide purist! :D :D
I like that there is no real 'right or wrong' in sound reproduction, just an assortment of methods that have varying probabilities of reaching the desired goals. In my opinion, horns offer efficiency at the expense of linearity over a wider frequency range. But over a limited range can be quite effective. Horn loaded systems get loud and we work to make them sound good. Reflex systems sound good and we work to get them loud.
Dave Rat Dave If I'm getting this right because my sons band plays basically in bars and smaller places "Reflex" subs would work best for them right? I say that because most bars don't want the sound crazy loud so they should opt for the sound vs volume. Thoughts...
Roger, even as a hornloaded fan I can tell you that in small environments reflex is the way to go. I'm just a horn fanatic. Horns tend to send energy straight through walls and down the road because they are low pressure/high displacement. Not what you want at small bars!
Dave - have you ever heard FLH / FLH reflex? A much greater passband is available than a standard reflex cabinet or folded horn, and the designs I know that work well are actually more linear, and also more dynamic. A lot of horns work by pressurising a front chamber, the high impedance of which is then transferred by a massive horn to atmospheric levels... yeah this pressure load and the folds are inherently bandpass and create a lot of non linearities. But there are some out there that do what they do without doing this and to my ears this where real bass reproduction is att. It's just a shame that all the big touring/manufacturing companies are obsessed with reflex. I've heard some good reflex cabs in my times... boxes that were free from honk, had sensible efficiency, and properly reproduce sub, but nothing can do leading edge like a short FLH!
there are differing tools for differing applications. With current technology, ultra long excursion drivers, and lightweight amps with massive amounts of power for reasonably low prices, relatively small bass reflex sub designs are a very effective way to reinforce even the largest of venues with smooth powerful sub lows. One interesting product I am currently working with is the PowerSoft M-Force moving magnet linear motor. This thing handle 10 to 15,000 watts, drives a 22" to 40" cone and pushes so much air that it is mind boggling. I have seen some horn loaded prototypes and am nearly done with a bandpass reflex design that has some transmission line aspects as well.
iawhiteleygray ,I'm having problems routing a powered subwoofer to my x32 can you help me?
Man!! That was too much for a one video!! I need more time to digest...
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But what if I can no longer afford LEGOs?
Well so e challenges are too steep to overcome! Hey hey Todd!
@@DaveRat He he you're the best Dave!
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Huh? The heck is this whatever?