Fire Boss AT802 Airtanker Crash Helena Montana 10 July 2024
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
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I am retired but used to work in the aviation industry. I have utter respect for those who do this job. RIP.
Met her once she was a good pilot and a good person I’m saddened by her loss
She was an asshole though
My heart goes out to her and her family. In my 30 years of being a pastor, I, unfortunately, buried two helicopter pilots working wildfires in Idaho. I know absolutely nothing about flying, but I know a lot about grief and loss. The one thing I know after presiding at these two funerals is that fire creates really, really dangerous flying conditions. Let’s pray that her life is the only one that has been lost this fire season, especially since in Reno, Nevada, my high temperature today (July 12, 2024) was 108F.
111F in central Washington. New record highs are coming.
80 or 85 in the San Francisco Bay Area seems way too hot for me.
God bless you. What would we do without folks like you.
Rest in peace. Fire bosses from the Columbia Gorge regional airport have been zooming over my house lately as they climb off the Columbia river. They really fill a vital role.
RIP
Very sad, I admire these flying firefighters
+1 Jeff. I'm based there myself and always appreciate seeing those Fire bosses parked there this time of year as I head to the hangar.
My hat always goes off to the brave men and women that respond to emergency disaster situations. Most of us would run away from the danger..........these folks tackle it head on. RIP Julianna and condolences to the families.
RIP. I am so grateful for the people who fight fires here in MT.
I live around this area and have seen Fire Boss 205 many times, and have flown into KCOE several times. It’s so tragic, I can’t imagine what her family must be feeling. I hope their hearts are eased knowing she went out trying to save lives. Rest in peace.
Another hidden hazard is the possibility of a partially submerged deadhead in the plane's path. Not always easy to spot even in good visibility. Condolences to her family and friends.
Jeez I didn’t even think about that. That’s would be extremely dangerous and no time to react.
As a retired wild-land firefighter and spotter pilot I feel for her family. She was doing something that not many people can or will do. Rest in peace!
That water loading procedure looks like a handful.
Looks incredibly challenging and dangerous.. couldn't pay me to do it. RIP to the brave pilot
All of these firefighting aircraft are extremely demanding and prone to biting you hard if you do anything wrong. It's a legitimately tough job.
It seems like the industry could really benefit from some sort of stability augmentation system that automatically damps out any oscillation during scoops, and maybe dynamically adjusts trim during drops. It might take a while to certify but the technology is extremely mature and available and it would greatly improve safety
A very tragic loss of a lovely young lady doing an incredibly challenging job. RIP and condolences to her family
Very sad indeed! Condolences to all who knew her. 🙏
My house is on the satalite view early in the video. The whole city of Helena is in shock. So unbelievably sad.
Word on the street is that a wave hit a wing tip and sent it spinning. These brave pilots are amazing, and I can't thank them enough.
All boating should be banned when scooping water operations are going on. I saw a Cessna float plane flip when hitting a boat wake.
What was the wind condition? Was it a boating wave?
Pure speculation as a local: I'm thinking they had her going into that canyon to get away from the boat traffic on the bigger lake to the south, but the wind is always an issue here in the summer afternoons. I guess there were people that saw it happen, so we'll probably know sooner than later?
@@playgroundchooser My guess is a bit of what he was talking about and some waves and the tip of the wing just touched the water. If you start moving back and forth, if you aren't perfectly level, it could easily turn into side to side sloshing of the water.
I don't remember much wind then but there has been brief strong wind. The wake board boat waves can be pretty big but they don't go much where the flight path is.
All air accidents are terrible...but when we lose someone dedicated to helping others and providing sterling service...it's even harder. Condolences to her family and I hear she has a 17 year old son...
What an adventurous person. Becoming a pilot, moving from Brazil, doing this firefighting stuff and running a coffee shop. And a'lot of my weekends are spent just drinking beer. :P
And damn accomplished too, 6500 hrs, many of those spent cropdusting (another profession that plucks pilots away)
@@aircraftadventures-vids Cropdusting pilots get frightening injuries, these pilots are brave, i wouldnt have nerve for it. My flight school fellows are finishing their cropdustring training.
As a highly skilled and time served aircraft passenger, I respect Blancolirio because he honours, publishes and defines all the pilots I have ever sat behind
RIP Juliana. May your skies be smooth and beautiful forever after. 🍺😟
A buddy used to fly the AG version in Colorado. After a spraying run he found himself simply running out of lift and crashed the plane (he walked away!). Even with all his experience he had a bad day. Looking at her approach to the water it makes me wonder if she blundered into a area of air coming down the mountain face and simply lost lift. Way too many failure modes to narrow things down now. Really hard to loose talented pilots like this. :^(
At Min 3:00 to 3:35 Juan shows the lake and fire on a map and states the area of the lake where she was trying to do the scoop was only 600 feet wide and surrounded by steep terrain; a narrow gorge?.
One wonders why she didn't instead attempt the pickup in the much wider area of the lake to the SE below the dam which appears closer to the fire. The eye witness reports when they come out should be helpful.
@@CyclerJohn I guy below in the comments speculates an answer to your questions: "playgroundchooser-
Pure speculation as a local: I'm thinking they had her going into that canyon to get away from the boat traffic on the bigger lake to the south, but the wind is always an issue here in the summer afternoons. I guess there were people that saw it happen, so we'll probably know sooner than later?"
@@CyclerJohn 600 feet is 10 times wider than the little runways that everyone lands on all day. I don't think this is going to be a factor.
@@CyclerJohnI was wondering too. Maybe enough wind to make the wave size on the larger lake surface a problem?
I watched two big Canadair Cl-415 scoopers loading in this same location Thursday evening, and there are three on site right now, so you’re right - there was plenty of space to operate. They are using the area over the lake to the northwest for their climb out.
RIP Juliana and condolences to her family, friends, and colleagues. Thanks, Juan.
@Blancolirio It’s not really a Pilot Induced Oscillation (PIO)
It’s an aircraft induced oscillation you are trying to control… when you you touch down on the water at idle or low power setting, the drag pitches the nose forward a bit.
Then when we deploy the scoops, that is a big increase in drag and pitch forward (We call the button on the joystick that deploys the scoops the”Rodeo Button”)
At the same time you start adding power because the Fire Boss is now slowing rapidly. The PT6A-67F engine is a big turbine for a single engine aircraft producing 1600 horsepower. As you know the larger the turbine the more turbine lag…you go from very little thrust ..a delay.. then lots of thrust and you can easily over torque the engine, so you are working the throttle quite a bit and watching the engine gauge closely on top of everything else.
Now the water is oscillating in the tanks, drag is increasing as you accelerate, which oscillates the water more, torque is pulling the aircraft quite hard to the left. Any waves, wake (both boat and other planes scooping) adds to the oscillation.
Then the drag of the scoops stops and the aircraft pitches back… both from reduced drag and engine power kicking in. But at 16,000. Pounds the plane isn’t ready to fly, so push forward and the water in the tanks is moving in a different direction.
This all happens in 15 seconds
The pilot can make it worse by mistiming control inputs trying to manage the oscillation…
It’s the most challenging and most rewarding flying I have ever done.
Rest in peace Juliana, I congratulated you when you were hired and know you were on top of the world starting your Fire Boss journey. We are terribly saddened you are gone and I can’t imagine what your family is trying to process.
I’ve posted scoops and drops of a few fires on instagram @squawk7500 if you’re interested
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
My condolences for the loss of your colleague. But a genuine question from your description of flying is why? The engineering on this plane doesn't sound very thought out and given the extreme focus and multitasking required in that brief 15 second window it seems downright dangerous. Don't get me wrong I am not arguing that water landings / scoops are not dangerous, but this particular plane seems to just have outright engineering flaws.
Dang, sorry to hear this. Love watching the videos of them picking up and dropping. As a high school kid growing up on Catalina Island I had a summer/after school job working as a ramper for the local airlines. We had a number of Grumman Goose and various helicopters. The Goose pilots were mostly all WWII vets. Even with their experience, we had a couple catch a pontoon and cartwheel. One of the 'older kids' grew up and started a company called Airborne Fire Attack, with a PBY called California Water Bomber. He crashed back in 97, luckily he and his copilot survived. A very dangerous business and my hat's off to everybody involved.
She had such a large social media presence. Such a shock to see her go.
Seems like 100 people a day with "large social media presences" meeting a premature demise. Maybe there's a connection.
@@kentuckybowl-o-sticks she was a pro by all accounts. But I feel as though the social media presence gives a sense that we all knew her in a way. Makes her death all the more sad and familiar
@@alexanderdavidson7837 I hadn't thought of it that way before, but you're right on the money.
I'd say the connection might be people want to find fault somewhere with no investigation @@kentuckybowl-o-sticks
As an 802 ag and fire pilot (not Fire Boss), I’ll tell you my observation on this event. The flight track indicates to me a concern of wind and turbulence just above the water and below the canyon walls. I believe a sudden loss of airspeed occurred in severe turbulence resulting in an inability to complete the turn onto the final scoop path. I have not seen weather data for that time and location, but know mountain winds in fire weather can easily exceed an aircraft’s limitations and a pilot’s ability to react or compensate. That’s one of the main reasons I’ll wheel land the 802 during fire weather and more often 3-point land in ag weather.
Someone with a local connection commented an hour after you: "The winds were very gusty that afternoon out of the north west and can create pretty big waves over that section of lake."
@@vidpieNorth winds blow against the current there and can make whitecaps on a sunny day.
I knew THOR who went down in a SEAT in Colorado a few years ago. Winds caught him and pushed him down into the terrain. Dangerous is right.
Juliana was our friend. She contributed a clip for my music video. God rest her soul.
My heart and prayers of comfort go out to her family and friends. So sorry to hear of this loss.
A free surface effect, sinks boats in some cases, airplanes are much more tender. She didn't even get the chance to pickle the load. This is a total bummer.
I used to ferry Turbine ATs. Up to the 5s. Something odd is that AT accidents have an incredible accident survival rate for Pilots.
Even stalls that turn in at at extremely low altitude. The probable reason is the Banjo Tight Web Seat, Cranked 5 point harness
and Crash Cage Structure plus Required Certified Helmet. Its possible that she survived the crash but could not get out.
Bless Her Heart. Black Feather !!!!!!!!!
Almost certainly. it's like a race car - you will survive. The issue is.. can you get out underwater, especially since any impact can stun you for quite a few seconds. Or worse, knock you out.
They are designed to crash. I know a pilot who survived one with a few scratches. Unfortunately there are scenarios where nothing is survivable.
RIP to the pilot and condolences to her family and friends. Always a bad day to lose a fellow pilot.
I am from Helena, MT (right near this fire) and she is regarded as a hero in our town. We will never forget her sacrifice.
@unotechrih8040 I saw some people flying the Brazilian flag on my way to the office this morning. 🥲 🫡🇧🇷
Thank you for sharing Juan, 🙏❤️😔🕊️
As a former shipwright, I can attest to the value of baffles.
Sloshing liquid is a catastrophe waiting to happen.
It must be minimalized.
Free surface in a boat's tanks is a big deal.
@@martyspargur5281 - It is.
Baffles are incompatible with scooping and dropping at coverage levels required.
It’s unlikely this is PIO. Every seaplane pilot has to deal with porpoising. The usual result on the Fireboss is either a reduced load or pickling the load. A pilot has to do a lot wrong to turn a PIO into a crash. Like those videos of pilots trying to force a nosehwheel on and breaking it after the third or fourth bounce.
@calvinnickel9995 - I appreciate the input.
It's now in my brain/library thingy.
When people called me a master craftsman I realized that I'm not.
The learning never stops.
Very sad that this pilot lost her life in the performance of her duty. Thanks for explaining things, Juan. Condolences to her family.
Such a shame. So sad. Condolences to her family and friends.
Thanks Juan.
One of the many things I get from your very informative posts is seeing what responders deal with in doing their job. (Whew, a long sentence indeed.)
Thank you Juan. So sad. My condolences to her, her family & friends & community. 🙏
Is there a good reason the tank is not extensively baffled to prevent sloshing? The notion of 'learning to live with' the sloshing seems utterly baffling.
Absolutely this. For a “purpose built aircraft” this seems like they lost their purpose here.
The only thing I can think of, baffles slowing or somehow impeding the loading? Just a guess. Does seem crazy to not have baffles.
Expect the baffles will slow the 15 second fill time, and the dump time as well, to something longer….
Movable baffles would be an interesting idea. More cost and weight.
Foam like they have in race car fuel tanks? Still fills quick.
@@PaleoWithFries Yes! The baffles wouldn't have to be very heavy, or take up much space. Just something to "confuse" the sine waves of sloshing /entering/settling and redirect the water's momentum in enough different directions to cancel out.
Sending prayers for the family 🙏
Fire fighting in an Air Tractor is insanely difficult.
This happened in my backyard. I'm glad you are covering this
RIP and thank you for serving our state! You will be greatly missed
What a wild and thankless job. I filled tankers including SEAT's one summer, some of the stories the pilots had we're unreal. And some were flying aircraft from the 40's and 50's, they're nuts.
Negative, Sir ... they're just aviators. We're all a little ... different 🙃 ^v^
them 802's are bad ass with floats and you dont expect them to be as big as they are when you see one in person and that huge 5 blade prop i remember seeing the 502s all the time for work and when the guy brough in the 802 i was like wow thats amazing it was a fire bomber also
They are more than 12,500 pounds gross. They are a a relatively forgiving aircraft though. You can even get a type rating waiver if you have enough time in a AT-602 because they fly so similar to each other.
Sad news JB. May she Rest in Peace.
Thanks for your time and resources.
Fly safe. 🤟🏼🖖🏼🙏🏼
Thanks to firefighters and support service workers for their often dangerous, difficult, and under-appreciated services. Rest in peace. Prayers for her family, friends, and colleagues.
Thank you for explaining some of the challenges of flying fire fighting aircraft. This is a tragic accident, and Juliana must have been a very special person loved by so many.
Very sad. Thanks for the update Juan.
May she rest in peace and may God comfort her family and coworkers.
Sad to loose such an experienced pilot and fire fighter...RIP
No one will ever know why this accident happened.
Thx Juan
Thanks for the report Juan. A tragic loss.
Our condolences to her family.
Thank you Juan, keep working.
R.I.P. fire fighters pilots have such a demanding and dangerous job. Condolences to her family and all who knew her any worked with her.
Juan - Dam....great video, but so sad it took the life of a very talented Aviator to get scoop on it!! I'm still not Pilot, but seems to me that she was surprised by something, to get accident rolling. Whether it was loss of power, scoop mechanism anomaly, or just terrain change she wasn't expecting, something surprised her. Too bad.....RIP!!!
Sympathies to the family and friends of Juliana. It's not lost on me that this loss occurred a mere 17 miles upriver from the 1949 Mann Gulch Fire tragedy.
Juan commits a number of mistakes... Firstly, the entire SEAT program is under the contracting and control of the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), not the US Forest Service (USFS).
Secondly, I seriously doubt the tanks are not baffled. The FAA requires baffled tanks for crop dusters in similar air frames.
Thirdly, what about fuel and range? It's a long haul from C'dA, ID to Helena, MT.
As for why Juliana went water skimming on the 600' wide "narrows" instead of the upriver lake is only for speculation. Maybe the Air Tactical Group Supervisor directed her to do that? This potentially raises the unspoken issue with all water skimming Fixed Wing aircraft. Scooping fixed wing aircraft, of all types, cannot be effective in initial and extended attack when surface vessels are on the water. Face it, many of those recreational boaters/fishermen are either rude, selfish or inebriated. Being a 30-year career wildland firefighter please don't ask me how I know.
No problem for water dipping helicopters. The insanely powerful rotor wash will blast the selfish away.
The tanks are absolutely baffled, stainless steel plates with little holes drilling into them. The animation didn't show that because it didn't need to. All floatplanes have the same porpoising problem even without a hopper.
I doubt fuel was a concern, she was likely carrying enough fuel to do numerous drops in that area from Coeur d'Alene, and this was her first run. I'd imagine she still had between 1/2 and 3/4 still in the tanks if she intended to return to the same base.
I'd imagine they were using that stretch of water as a deconfliction move to avoid boating in the area. Probably a lot easier to keep people off that short stretch of water than the larger lake SE of there. That lake is within their capabilities, and if it was a problem it would be more evident at the end of the run or after takeoff rather than at the start of it.
I remember an event in the Grand Canyon du Verdon in France. Two teenagers floating an inflatable rubberboat against stream into the gorge. What could go wrong? We can just drift down, back to the lake, we thought. After the first corner between the steep canyon walls, we decided we wanted to go back. We couldn’t. The wind that gathered over the lake was so strong, squeezed between the canyon walls and pushed us to the trailing edge of the inner side of the mountain turn. There was a small muddy bank there, where we could wait our moment to try again. While we were waiting, a canoe slammed into the rock wall, too. After half an hour, it seemed wind got a bit easing down, we needed all our forces to return. Since then, I am in awe of the possible forces in the mountains. Rest In Peace dear lady, and respect to all firefighters, on land and in the air
@@Skinflaps_Meatslapper These tanks are “not” baffled. It’s an 800 gallon tank divided in half with the last 8-10 inches open on top of the dividing wall to either side. That lake is well within the capability of these aircraft. A FireBoss can comfortably scoop with a 5 kt wind on lakes one mile long and 1/3 that width. Every mission, they go out with full wing tanks which equates to 3.5 hours plus reserve.
@@FireBosspilot Hey Doug, did you fly for Buffalo Airways at one point in time? I think I remember meeting you years ago, who knows where. I was probably with Aero Spray at the time...Roger, from Texas. If yours doesn't have a set of stainless steel baffles in it, take a look in the hopper next time you go out, there are hard points on the hopper divider with stainless fittings where a pair of baffles should be. The baffle plates usually support a pair of tubes that elbow up past the divider, and there's some space around the fiberglass and baffles to allow water to slowly migrate back and forth. I'm not sure why yours doesn't have them, seems odd that they'd be missing. The two halves of the hopper are far too narrow nose to tail to necessitate additional baffling beyond that.
When I was filling a temporary seat for Macedonia in 2010, weather reports all around the area were showing light and variable winds. We got to the intended lake and it was around 15-25kt. The terrain seemed to funnel that light and consistent wind straight down the lake, causing 3ft waves and the mechanical turbulence down on the deck made it impossible to even try. Felt like there were just dead spots in the air that caused you to fall out of the sky, and then it all came back in a jarring thud. Everywhere else all around us was fine. Seen it to a lesser extent in the narrow mountain reservoirs of Idaho and Montana. Could've been a similar situation here, unfavorable winds and conditions magnified by a narrow canyon...my guess is she hooked a float and couldn't recover.
Her ferry flight was about 250 miles, that's about 1.5hrs burned, putting her squarely in the 1/2-3/4 range when she got there. Fuel certainly wasn't a problem. Stay safe up there buddy, we've lost too many already.
Juan, been watching your videos for a long time and always appreciate your input and attention to details in your videos. My parents live a few miles up the lake from where she crashed, my only piece of info I have to add is where you measured the lake is much farther up river. Based on the picture in your title frame the crash happened down river where the lake is much wider and there is no steep terrain to either side. The winds were very gusty that afternoon out of the north west and can create pretty big waves over that section of lake. Thanks again for your review and I look forward to your video on the preliminary report. Best, Rick
I live in Helena and I knew I'd see a video from you about this. People here are pretty gutted about it. RIP.
Very sad for this brave pilot who flys to help others in regard to firefighting
I’m not saying anything except I just love that people are willing to take such risk. RIP!
Winds were insane, too. Early the next morning (here in Powder River County), a powerful gust front hit, hot and smokey, that raised the temperature from 61 to 80 in 10 minutes. Dang far east, I know but example of those days. I never saw that in 40 years and not dealing with lakes, canyons or rough water. Salute to all of those who fight to save others. Lived in Helena many years. Good analysis.
Sorry to hear of the accident.
How tragic. Prayers for all involved.
A tremendous loss. Condolences to the family and friends.
I really Enjoy how you Perceive the Situation & take into account every detail that relates to an Incident.
The Method is both as i may have mentioned before Precise & Very Well Researched, Documented as well as Narrated.
I'm very sure that upon your completion of Flying Duties you will indeed continue on in this Realm & Present to many Organisations the Knowledge that goes with being up front in the Hot Seat of an Airliner & that Knowledge is Cleary imparted on to us in the clearest of manners.
I watched the Videos of the Fire Fighting Teams that you visited & they are a very Unique breed of Pilots & other Specialists.
It goes to Clarify Just what it's like to fly in those types of Fire Conditions etc &
The Skill levels needed in their flying which leaves very little room for error.
As always an Excellent Report on this Incident & as mentioned a great series on the Airborne Fire Fighters of Cal Fire & I also count Coulson in that regard as well.
Top Tier People...
Wow. So sad. Great report Juan.
802’s are flown all over the world for ag spraying. I’ve never heard an ag pilot complain about sloshing and lord knows they do some pretty amazing maneuvering.
Totally different setup for ag flying.
Agricultural 802's aren't on floats. Float planes are a totally different animal. The surface isn't stable and there are multiple competing moments and forces happening. Porpoising is a real problem on floats without slosh dynamics. You introduce factors like counter slosh and an aggressive porpoise, and couple that with the standard considerations of power management, riding the step, and simply flying the plane and you have an extremely fine balancing act.
@@MachTuckChuck That's the rub...porpoising happens on floatplanes without a hopper sloshing. The hopper is properly baffled, it's the moment arm resulting from the plane being so heavy that makes the oscillations so powerful and difficult to counter. Most floatplanes aren't held in that perfect speed regime where porpoising happens for an extended duration, it's a transitory event for them, but firebombers on a run certainly do. Notice that in the training video the oscillations started before they had any meaningful load in the hopper, and they called it very early into the run without having picked up much water at all.
So sad. RIP
The AT802 looks like an outstanding, very specialized concept but the innovations substantially increased pilot demands for safe operation. Very tragic loss. Thank you for the prompt summary, Juan.
Which innovation specifically?
Maybe there's more complexity to it, but that whole process seems incredibly dangerous and designed in such a way as to maximize the threat in all possible ways.
6000 pounds of water in 15 seconds? Seems to be asking for trouble.
The braking force on the plane must be huge. Then there’s the torque generated by that force acting on a moment arm whose length is the height of the CG above the water.
Seems they could afford to take a bit more time. And the sloshing ought to be suppressed with baffles.
@@maxenielsen I just wonder what happens if you hit a log or an unexpected rock or a wave or something. It'd be a problem at the best of times but if the plane is already undergoing some ridiculous level of dynamic changes it seems like it might make it impossible to meaningfully react to it.
@@maxenielsen The issue is that they can take more time, but they would need a couple of miles of open water. So they have to balance the danger and their design goal for all of these scooping planes is minimum time in contact with the water.
When I'm in CDA during the summer, I sometimes stop by Pappy Boyington field to watch the Fire Bosses and other tankers flying in and out. When the Fire Bosses are picking up water from Spirit Lake, my house is their IP.
@@johnslaughter5475 It is rather shocking that in 2024, that field is the only honor for Boyington. He's deserving of having a ship named for him. Yet the Navy never has had one for him.
3:18 The challenging conditions Juan mentions makes me wonder why she didn't use the larger bodies of water showen to the right and left.
Probably a conflict with boating traffic on the larger lake, they likely shut down boating ops on that narrower part for the firebombers to use.
Thanks, stay safe.
Big thanks to the fire fighting community.
Bless up❤
Condolences to her family. That was an interesting clip of the demonstration
Thanks Juan Browne
Dangerous job for sure. Thoughts and prayers to the family.
Looking at the steep terrain, my first question would be the local wind and how it would be influenced by the terrain.
We had an Air Tractor crash near here in New Brunswick a few years back (Juan covered it briefly), it showed how incredibly tough the structure of those planes is. Unfortunately water crashes add that extra risk.
Vary sad indeed May she Rest.I.P and condolences to her family.🙏🙏😢🇦🇺
Rest In Peace to her and condolences to her family. I can’t imagine their pain and loss they are dealing with.
Hey Juan, will you cover the SV-792 incident? I’m interested in knowing what happened there as most articles aren’t clear
Good report, Juan. Sad. R.I.P.
Respect for this gal. Best wishes to her family. Thank you for your video
I had the honor of flying with and getting to know Julianna this season. Not only was she an experienced pilot, she was also an amazing person.
RIP friend.
Thanks for the information Sir. Much appreciated.
As a 4th generation Montanan, local pilot, and frequent fisherman less than an hour from that very location that is a TIGHT and dynamic area (especially when Canyon Ferry is only a couple miles away.....) I'm very confused with their choice of pick up location with other options so very close too.... either way... RIP its a sad day... Lets also not forget the extreme heat and the DA for that area.....
I was just thinking the same thing. Last time i was in that area there was alot of debris just under the water. We unintentionally hit alot of it in our boat. Im very confused as to why she decided that getting water from that spot was better than Canyon Ferry. This is a very sad day, RIP.
Agree. I lost a good friend in a boating accident on that lake. Hit something he shouldn’t have.
@PenAirPilot I'm thinking it was because of the wind we've been having all week. Maybe the canyon offers some shelter?
Have you floated the Mo yet this year? The browns are really hungry at Pelican Point right now. 😁
@@playgroundchooser They probably used the smaller lake for deconfliction with boaters. The last place I'd want to be in high winds is down in a canyon with all that mechanical turbulence.
Wow, sad loss. My condolences
Sad news, RB, Nova Scotia, thank you for your report.😊
Seems every season we lose one or two fire pilots. It's a dangerous job. Respect and gratitude to those willing to accept the mission.
I think she's the fifth one we lost this year, and the 12th ag pilot as well. We've had four midair collisions so far and the ag season hasn't really started yet.
Terrible loss of a brave and desperately needed pilot, and I'm sure a good person if she choose to be in this profession. I've watched that video with Richard and it was amazing how tricky that loading seemed to be. However, the Fire Boss is an amazing machine that is unequaled in it's ability to combat these fires.
Great stuff. "Uncle Jaun"~ 👍👍👍
I hate this. 🙁 Peace and love to the family. Thanks Juan.
Having watched the McSpadden video, I assumed that was what happened when I heard about this incident. The report I saw said she impacted terrain, then went back into the water. Rest in peace, my sister, of the fire service.
Almost a free surface effect for airplanes. Thanks for the detail.
Air Tractor is an excellent company with a stellar reputation. Their build quality is second to none. Several ideas rushed to mind: I wonder if an approach a lower speed but at the moment of water uptake the aircraft exerts maximum power to force the fluid aft until rotation. What if a mechanized baffle which (somehow) counters the fluid movement. This might be done with hydraulic not through pumps but off of the "wave" or "slosh" action itself. I did not notice much of a pitch change. The pilot should hold, I would think, the pitch angle with perhaps light upward trim. There is also the drag of the floats which is variable due to the surface condition of the water, which causes a nose down that had to be countered by elevator. Then you have water,hopefully, loading on the CG at the center of thrust. One way semi truck tankers limit the sloshing is the compartments are sectioned if the section is topped off entirely it cannot slosh. Perhaps this is the solution is to fill from the top ( again somehow) when the bottom chamber is filled, seal it, and proceed to fill another. Limit the amount of fore and aft movement during the fill process. A full tank cannot slosh. Fluids are not compressible.
I'm glad someone mentioned the drag and nose down moment (by moment I mean rotating force, not a moment in time) caused by the scoops contacting the water. I suspect this alone could cause an oscillation and any sloshing in the tanks may just be a red herring. The "catch" and resulting pitch down would push the front of the floats down in the water and momentum would push them deeper than the equilibrium point and then they'd come up again. If the resulting nose up caused the scoops to break contact that would cause even more nose up and you're flying again. Pilot applies down elevator to try and keep it in contact with the water which makes the nose down/dig in effect more pronounced on the next contact... and there's your oscillation. Probably need to break contact and just fly for a moment before trying again, a bit like ground resonance in a helicopter where you need to take the weight off the skids to stop it.
Juan always is respectful of the pilot and gives benefit of doubt and not jumping to conclusions. Many thanks. Envoy retired.
It’s always a shame to lose a pilot in the service of saving others. The pictures are usually the same, a grin from ear to ear while in or on the airplane.
I'm so sorry to hear of this loss to the air firefighting community. My jeart goes out to her family and friends, as well.
Aviators who fly wildfires are amazing people, braving challenging conditions. I know she will be missed.
Rest in Peace. Thank you for serving the community 😢
I had seen that video when it came out, and wondered at the time why there haven't been any accidents while scooping. It just seemed so inherently dangerous, with so little "wiggle room" for a newer pilot that it seemed inevitable that someone would eventually make a tiny mistake with enormous consequences. Condolences to the family and friends of such a courageous pilot.
RIP and a very sad and unfortunate story.