After watching this video I grew a handlebar mustache and listened to 'Rule Britannia' for half an hour. Great video though, you really have reloading for this cartridge down to a science.
HOMEGA10 Oh, she will,...... she will,..... Stare into her eyes, wave your palm across her face gently, and say, "this IS the moustache you've been looking for,......" If she doesn't roll her eyes and call you an idiot, you've got 'er... :-)
Thanks a lot. I noticed on you video that the bullet with the largest diameter got a very tight group for a Martini. What sould I expect for accuracy. Is 2 to 3 moa realistic for this rifle.
There is a greatly therapeutic nature to these videos. I could watch them endlessly (and not like that's anything different from the rest). There is just something rather calming about watching the somewhat extensive, reloading process of an antiquated cartridge...
This is a great video on how to load the martini Henry cartridge. I have all I need to load my cartridges thanks to X-Ring Services. I just have to find some FFg powder and wait for the 12mm punch to arrive, then the fun begins,
thank you so much for showing us this incredible information and remaking history I contacted you maybe a little over a month ago and told you that you got me into buying my first Martini Henry and recreating the ammunition well I just wanted two tell you that I've made my first batch of Martini Henry ammunition and I am very excited to finally shoot it I will let you know the results I followed your paper patch method to the T thank you again and please keep doing what you do
This video really helpful me reload my 100 rounds of Kynoch Martini ammo I bought, thought I didn't have to cast new bullet lead I did have to re-paper patch the bullets after priming them with a non corrosive primer and proper black powder instead of cordite, but now I have a video to help me cast my bullets when I get ready to reload my Martini ammo this coming week Thanks!
Great! Although I haven't had any experience with old Kynoch brass, I have heard of them being a bit fragile... Perhaps annealing them will help with longevity...
+Anon Hunter Thank you very much. Yes, there are many accounts of Martinis that were too hot. Leather handguards were used unofficially from the late 1870s, and were later, by the early 1880s, produced as an issue item.
+britishmuzzleloaders It's just that too often shooters get caught up in the new and flashy (which there's nothing wrong with) when there's just as much (well, probably quite a bit more) joy and satisfaction from the nuts and bolts DIY aspect of the hobby. The monetary savings are nice, too.
Great video. My grandfather had a Martini Henry dated 1887. When you looked at the barrel end you could see that it had been sleeved twice, once for .303 Enfield and then for .22 Long Rifle. It bore the stamp "Converted by CG Bonehill of Birmingham for the Soceity of Minature Rifle Clubs. As I didn't have a FAC I had to hand it in .... sadly. But I did shoot it before that .... in .22 LR. So heavy there was no perceptible recoil. Pretended I was at Rourke's Drift for 5 minutes.
+john marsh That's too bad... 1887? Was it a Mk IV?... I can imagine the docile recoil with the .22. There is a VERY perceptible recoil with full bore rounds, mind you!... :-)...
Great job Rob, I have been paper patching the .45/70 and the .50/90 Sharps for my Sharps rifles. I have been wiping between shots, getting impressive results. I use Roosters paper patch lube to moisten the patch when I patch the bullet. Next step will be to work up a hunting load so I can shoot. 3-5 accurate shots with out wiping.
+Hugh Batesel Nice! It's so difficult to wipe with the MH.... For best accuracy with any BP rifle, I think that is the best practice, though. It's not particularly appropriate in the military context (either service or range related) but if absolute best results were to be had, I think this is a technique that would deserve attention. The blow tube certainly seems to be a reasonable (and period) solution... Cheers.
I just happened across you when doing some research on the 1871 valise equipment and I am impressed. Your videos are very informative and interesting to watch.
I have to admit its amazing to see this done and then think of the munitions workers that did this sort of work everyday for countless millions of rounds.
Your videos are fantastic and I'm very glad to have run across your channel. Thank you for these, they're fascinating. Watched a few others and I know I'll enjoy going back through the rest.
This wensday my martini mk2 arrives. And also thanks to you I was able to identify it as British made. Now I'll save up so I can contact Martin about reloading dyes and molds for bullets.
I LOVE! Seabee! or Rednecked? Engineering! Get it done with What You Have. Must admit "I Would" try cotton thinking about military distractions' of yours' or enemies' info. Cant believe I watched this dude this long? and old is new again, but I have learned more black powder tech?
Great video and great choice of background music...I heard Braganza/Lass o Gowrie and Sir Manly Power/Paddys Resource. Both Queens and Middlesex Regiment marches. Thank you.
Fantastic info, I am just about to cast for a chap who shoots the Martini, and I needed to get my head around all the info I could absorb, I will continue to subscribe and possibly look for my own Martini, cheers
I always found paper patched bullets interesting. On a side note, at 15:26 are you wearing hob nail shoes? I like your commitment to historical details.
great info. I just picked up a Canadian Mk1, one of the few actually issued (marked on butt) Looks like great fun to shoot. I just happen to have an 1875p saw back bayonet that fits the Martini Henry, no insp. marks so most likely for a volunteer unit.
First time out with my Martini was good . Took ten paper patched .459 cast bullets with 80 grains FF. Fresh from IMA I fired two rounds to verify it was safe with a sandbag on the action. Six were in a three inch group with two fliers. I am happy. Next group will be patched closer to .470
+Greg King Funny you mention that Greg (and thanks, by the way)... I have some time coming (now confirmed) in September of this year.... The intent is to pay a visit to your side. Just need some timings and an RV and I'll make best effort to be there. Exciting stuff!
I`m sure we have an event round aout then. Its the smoker at Bisley ranges in Feb I will speak to Sgt Harman about events and timings. Oh by the way we are stopping in Canada house at the ranges. Happy new year to you and your family.
+Greg King And a very happy New Year to you and yours! I do hope that something works out around that time, too. Definitely looking forward to the possibility of visiting and learning from the Diehards. Hope the smoker is full of white smoke and good times!
I guess the children who did this in Burningham 145 years ago could have gave you lessons on this process? Great video, gave me ideas for doing this, thx.
Hi ! Exelllent video as allways Rob! I am still struggeling to get my Mk IV to behave. Will test different loads this winter . Hard cast bullets helped. Keep up the good work! Greetings, Alf!
+oljerigg Hi Alf. I too found that harder bullets worked better. I only use 20-1 vs the service 12-1... Tin is so expensive. Mk IVs tend to have a bit of a bigger bore. What are you patching to?
+britishmuzzleloaders Hi ,Rob! im in the planning state when it comes to pp. Need to get me a mold.What do you recommend? (Mk IV) Greetings from Norway,Alf!
oljerigg Hi Alf. Aim for a mould that will give you .471 or so for the Mk IV... Tom at accurate will work with you to accommodate different sizes on existing designs... Of course, you need to determine what paper you will be using... measure it and add the sum of four thicknesses to the bullet, this is the total that should measure .471/2... I have had great initial success with my PP mould (in this video).. The .457, parallel sided version, that is. Get one in .459 and I should think that it would be OK in your Mk IV... or you could use mine... I thought that the fatter "shoulders" of the parallel sided style might engage the bore in a more positive way than the tapered service-style bullet... I need to do more testing, but as I have found, things are pretty good right away...! Cheers. PS I think that Tom lists my bullet as a 46-510 PP
I use the .460 parallel bullet and onion paper. Works well. Instead of using a cotton ball I use something sold at Buffalo arms. It is a black powder filler and has lubricant in it. This works very well as this works with the cookie. I get good groupings at 100yds.
Another outstanding video. Makes me want to obtain a few rds to put through my Martini wall hanger brought home from Afghanistan...from a vice...at a distance....with a long piece of string activating the trigger...
Mr. britishmuzzleloader, you might try one egg white in about a cup of warm water as your bullet patching mixture. You can moisten the patch on a sponge dampened with this mixture. I think you’ll find that the patch adheres tighter and quite well to the bullet. Cheers!
One factor that can be important is the direction of wrapping on the paper patch, it is said to be better to wrap, (as you have done), so that the patch will unwrap on exiting the muzzle, although, as in your video ,the patch should be cut by the rifling into small strips, it is a good idea to follow the clockwise wrap, (looking from the rear of the bullet), for right hand twist barrels. and of course anti clock, for left hand twist barrels.
Is there any places that have the 468 or 475 grease groove bullet molds? I just bought my first MH and it seems much easier that having to make grease cookies and PP the bullets... actually it looks like CastBulletEngineering actually has molds and sizers for those.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Yes ive been learning thanks to you an others thank you. I just bought the 470 diameter 480 grain grease grooved mold it was $260! the handles i guess are a separate $100 and theyre in australia that exactly on the opposite side of the world from me in Mchigan. I appreciate any company that produces this stuff tho lol. They couldnt stay in business if they charged less. LEE isnt making custom molds rn and their not cheap either when they do. but 457 molds are common and cheap.
Victorian soldiers would probably be more than puzzled if they saw how much effort it takes to shoot a Martini nowadays! Great video, I wondered if you could get a hold of a thermal camera one day? I'm very curious about how hot a Martini barrel gets under rapid fire, and it would be a very informative video IMO
+lptomtom HI there. 10 rounds rapid will make the barrel too hot to hold on to... 20 rounds will make it too hot to touch... That's the actual barrel, mind you... A common practice was to wrap a leather guard around the back of the barrel and forestock to protect the hand, on active service. I can't speak to the number of degrees it reaches, but functionally it doesn't take long. As for the ammo, it was rather more complicated back then, what with the rolled brass cartridges.... the case had to be folded in at the neck and then the bullet crimped into that... I doubt if one could replicate this procedure without some sort of somewhat sophisticated equipment.. Cheers.
One small and easy method you can try, is to on wrapping on the patch, instead of "crimping" the end, if you hold your finger and thumb on each side of the bullet base, and turn the bullet with your right hand, it will turn in the patch evenly, all around the base, (like an old type sweet wrapper), this does away with the notchy base and will save the rolling process, I also take advantage of the loose fit bullet, and only neck size after loading, this grips the bullet just enough to stop it falling out.
+britishmuzzleloaders : I have tried both bases, I swage my bullets on my home made swaging die, so I only have to change the shape of the punch, but it does not appear to make any difference, with or without, if a lot of length of patch is left to overhang, the cupped base is probably better, but with you short tailed patch the flat base is easiest, the cup is really only useful to tuck the excess patch into. Chris.
+Englishman French That's what I am led to believe... The cupped base allows for better seating of the bullet on the wads by allowing for room for the "twist" of paper. Cheers.
The total process of casting the bullets, patching them and the steps to assembling each round is considerable. The recoil abuse of 85 grains of black power and a 500 grain bullet provide are all factors revealing just how determined you are to shoot a Martini-Henry 577/450 rifle.
Great Video wish you would have done this Paper Patching earlier would have saved me a lot of trial and error mostly error . I enjoy watching your chanel and yes I have Subscribed. Cheers from down under.
+mrbikehunter Hope that you are up and running with your paper patches now. Does your process differ any from mine? Glad you enjoyed the video. Cheers.
+britishmuzzleloaders I ended up with a 457 lee bullet PP it shoots quite well. The paper patching i do was gleaned from several different sources must have guessed correctly to be the same as yours . I have an A4 template that I use with a guillotine cutter and for that puckering I have a block of alloy with a conical hole drilled in it that i put the bullet in and move it round and round . I enjoy history that I can touch started out with a Snider just like Ned Kellys (Australian Bushranger) he robbed the bank at Euroa in 1879 with one he called Betty then i just had to have a Martini like yours and I already had the mustache.You have cost me a lot of time and money no regrets .. Thankyou
+britishmuzzleloaders I am using a 60 cal round ball now getting 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 metres and I am happy with that. I tried a 578 mini ball and it was just terrible am going to call CBE- Cast Bullet Engineering here in Queensland and see what they have for me.
In service these rounds were manufacture at the Woolwich Arsenal on the South Bank of the River Thames at Woolwich on the South East edge of London. . filling took place in a long brick building, known in the 1860's as Building 12. Loading was done by children with Adult supervision. Needless to say powder spilt, working it's way into the grain of wooden benches. It was not unknown for a trail of powder to be sparked, wether by accident or delibrately. Mostly there was apprently a shrpSphitt type noise and everyone jumped. On one occasion this effect ran away causing panic and everyone running from the building. Officially the two sides of the doors at the end of the building should have swung open till they hit against the wall. However newly installed gas lamps on the outside of the building stopped this and the doors only opened 90 degrees. In the resulting crush a number (Exact escapes me at the moment) of Adults and children died. Subsequently one of the first Enquirys in industrial acccident deaths in the UK was carried out. The result blamed one the hildren for taking 'Illigal' material into the shed, and causing sparks.
It's fun to shoot paper patch slugs...i use 2 types of loads ..one load I call a military type and another called creedmore...i get them to to shoot minute of angle and that's with a ten shot string...no blow tube with the military style not necessary if you shoot fast...
Scary but forty years ago with a .457 bullet and patched out to .470 , loaded pretty much the same way you did I had similar results with 85 grs. of two F under a beeswax and paper wad with a 475 grain bullet. I took out a cougar at a paced out 400 yards downhill at a shallow angle. It was with a long lever Mk. IV. I guess times don't change what really works.
One time this rifle was so popular in Turkey that there are families named Martin here. Hard to believe but true. Before the establishment of the new Turkish Republic Turkish people did not have surnames, after 1920's the new Government decreed that every family should choose a surname. A man who was an avid deer hunter loved his rifle so much that he choose "Martin" as his surname, his descendants including a famous footballer named "Ersen Martin" has this surnameç
Very educational I’m just learning here gathering any informations that I can get my hands on I have a set of Lee dies ( no press yet ) can I size with the Lee set or I have to get a 44/80 rugger too Do you have to size the casing every time after firing And what is the overall length of the cartridge when it’s ready Thank you
is there a possibility that you could use a .470 nitro die for neck sizing for the thinner bullet instead of the full length .577/450 one? or maybe another like .460wby, .458win/lott for the neck? or would that not work. as always great vids!
Perhaps, I have found that the modified version shoots better so that is what I typically shoot... Sticking with what works best, you know. I suppose that one of the dies you mention might work just the same to give the neck a bit more tension...
How does the performance of the paper patch bullets compare to grease groove bullets in the Martini Henry? I have experimented with PP bullets in my 45-70 Sharps and found them to be fairly inconsistent compared with grease groove bullets. I use 20-1 lead/tin alloy and black powder as well. I typically get 1 to 1.5 inch groups with grease groove bullets, but they open up to 2-3 inches with the paper patch bullets. I have a tapered PP bullet as well.
If I remember correctly, wasn't the patched bullet dipped in melted bees wax and pushed thru a sizing heated sizing die prior to being loaded in the cartridge?
Another excellent video, with much thought and research gone into it, very much appreciated ! One thing that would make life easier would be to turn up a neck sizing die, you could then just size the case neck to whatever dia gave you the best neck tension, I noticed that you did not flare the case mouth, does that not give your patches a tear? Many thanks for posting.
+Englishman French Ahh,..... I figured someone would say something about that before I put up the annotations.......:-)... I have since added some notes and links to previous videos showing how I prep the cases... They are indeed flared (and incidentally prepped in exactly the same way as for the grease groove bullets).. Should have probably mentioned that in the soundtrack, eh?... :-) ..... Cheers.
Great video rod , I have a question about black powder I just bought 2 lb of 2 Fs schuetzen at the chiliwack gun show , I always used 70 Gr goex 2 fs for my snider and 85 Gr for Martini Henry, I want wondering if I can use the same powder charge with schützen
did the sporting variant of the martini henry as made by the likes of Westley Richards use the standard bullet weight, the carbine bullet weight or a completely different bullet weight?
This is years behind,but if you review these comments I have a tip,to grip the bullet without the neck sizing,load the bullet then run the loaded round into the sizing die just enough to grip the projectile. 🙃
Sir, Greetings from the UK. I really like all your videos and a healthy sense of humour too. Do you sell DVDs of your series? I had to buy one and bought a Webley Martini last time I was at Bisley. Great stuff and please keep them coming. Robin H
Hello Robin. Nice to hear from you. Very happy that you are enjoying things on the Channel. I do not have a hard copy of the videos... Maybe when I have flushed out a complete "series" I'll put them all together into one. Cheers.
It would shoot. Paper patching and grease grooves, typically don't perform quite as well as a purpose designed PP bullet with smooth sides... Worth a try though.
If I was going to venture into paper patching, is there a mold you would recommend? Funds are limited so I can't buy 3 different molds? I understand that differences in rifles, loads, wind, barometric pressure, etc. can affect bullet flight.
Thank you for your videos. I loaded up my first Martini Henry Paper patched rounds yesterday. Even copied your idea of custom boxes. (I did not use string though) I do have a question regarding the cotton filler. I filled up the case with polyfill to the point that it could not be compressed much more as I was worried that the card wad and grease cookie would be pushed into the case. Is it possible to use too much filler (Poly fill or cotton wool) which can create a pressure problem? (Maybe I am overthinking it, but I have only loaded smokeless cartridges until yesterday). Can you please give a newby some advice regarding how tightly should the cotton wool or poly fill be packed in the case?
HI there. Glad to hear that you have made the foray! I wouldn't worry too much about having to compress the fill. Just put enough so that it fills the space. There doesn't need to be much pressure on the wad column to keep it in place. Sounds like you might be putting a bit too much in. "Too much" in the sense that you don't need that much rather than "unsafe" too much. If you use a solid filler like corn meal or such, that can increase pressure because int forms a solid mass in the case and then must be squeezed down to make it through the neck. In actual fact, some don't use any filler at all, relying on the grease in the grooves of a GG bullet only. Cheers.
Best prescriptive video that I know of thanks a lot. Some questions please. I patched a .459 580gr geese grooved bullet up to .472 then run them throu the sizer and now measures .4695 - You think they will be ok for the Martini? I'v done the same thing for the Sharps I patched a .450 bullet up to .462 run them through the sizer. They came out at .4595. Think they will work ok. I am trying to make a bullet that is a tight fit to see if it will give better groups In the video are still going to "work up a load" what exactly does that involve? Thanks a lot Paul Blrsdings
.469 will be fine in the Martini. Working up for me means different powder loads, seating depths, wad/grease cookie combinations, etc,.. the process I used for the Snider was documented in the so named, two part series on that rifle.
Hi Rob I’m getting into reloading my Martini and saw in this video you used a mold from accurate mold. What was the mold number so I can order one thanks
Fantastic video, as always. I love your appreciation for historical accuracy in your shooting! Out of curiosity, is there a known way to recreate the brass foil with paper patching cartridge for earlier Martini-Henry firing?
Cheers! I'm sure there is, but it certainly isn't worth it for something that would probably be un-reloadable... or at least supremely difficult to reload...
Was the original paper plaster waxed against the water? I have a Steyr Kropatschek rifle and the original cartridges have a waxed patch. Now I'm starting with Martini Henry. Is waxed paper worse for shooting? I noticed that no patch is now waxed.
What powder do you use? Do you know if there are factory loads and cost . I did it and made a purchase of a martini MII ENFIELD 1880s cleaned and complete for 1,100. That's why I'm looking for some cartridges to test fire it before I invest anymore money in it.
Rob, Sorry for posting to such an old video, however i have a question please. Which bullet did you ultimately decide upon to be the most accurate. I would like to go with historical accuracy, but if there are better choices im all for that.
Not a problem, Scott. I found that with proper work up, both the PP and the GG perform equally... but for ease of manufacture, the GG is a bit easier, but not that much... Paper patching isn't that hard to get the hang of.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Rob. Thanks for the speedy reply. That being said I really like the idea of PP so thats the way i will go, were you ever able to make the tapered bullet shoot as well as the parallel sided bullet? Im asking because im not sure which mold to purchase.
Once I got the parallel sided one up and running (I must admit that it was where my focus was as it was my design) I didn't really look back... the narrower .451 service bullet didn't seat nicely in the case mouth (with the 480 sized neck) and was also more of a PITA to patch...
@@britishmuzzleloaders Rob, Thank you for the information as well as the hard work and dedication you put into this wonderful channel. Looking forward to watching for many years to come. Best regards, Scott
+Mr Mundy HI there. No there are no jams. The problem with the rolled cases was that they sometimes separated at the rim and then the next round couldn't chamber. This was part of the reason that drawn cases were produced in 1885 and rushed to the Sudan. As the ammo today is all drawn cased, this problem really doesn't exist. Cheers.
After watching this video I grew a handlebar mustache and listened to 'Rule Britannia' for half an hour.
Great video though, you really have reloading for this cartridge down to a science.
+Alome9 ...... Excellent. The fiendish sub-plot worked then!..... :-)... Glad you liked it. Cheers.
I did the same but my wife does not like my handlebar mustache
HOMEGA10 Oh, she will,...... she will,..... Stare into her eyes, wave your palm across her face gently, and say, "this IS the moustache you've been looking for,......" If she doesn't roll her eyes and call you an idiot, you've got 'er... :-)
How much mustache did grow under that half an hour? ;)
britishmuzzleloaders are you British
what a process holy cow
It rolls along (pun intended) quite quickly once you get the hang of it.
Wow, how did they produce millions of cartridges back then? Could this be automated or was it all hand work?
Thanks a lot. I noticed on you video that the bullet with the largest diameter got a very tight group for a Martini. What sould I expect for accuracy. Is 2 to 3 moa realistic for this rifle.
You have taught me more history than school and college
Also your comment section is one of nicest I've seen
Well, inadvertently, perhaps..... :-) Glad that there is something in these videos that has sparked your interest! Cheers.
Saul Moses Indeed. One of the joys of channels such as this which major on somewhat niche subjects is that they tend not to attract the arseholes!
Amazing to watch the dedication you put on informing about this cartridge. very cool to watch.
Thank you!
There is a greatly therapeutic nature to these videos. I could watch them endlessly (and not like that's anything different from the rest). There is just something rather calming about watching the somewhat extensive, reloading process of an antiquated cartridge...
Glad you enjoyed it. Loading some up right now for the initial efforts at the Annual Qualification of 1879.
This is a great video on how to load the martini Henry cartridge. I have all I need to load my cartridges thanks to X-Ring Services. I just have to find some FFg powder and wait for the 12mm punch to arrive, then the fun begins,
+Rudy Nouvelle Excellent! "Fun" indeed!
thank you so much for showing us this incredible information and remaking history I contacted you maybe a little over a month ago and told you that you got me into buying my first Martini Henry and recreating the ammunition well I just wanted two tell you that I've made my first batch of Martini Henry ammunition and I am very excited to finally shoot it I will let you know the results I followed your paper patch method to the T thank you again and please keep doing what you do
Great! Wonderful to hear. Bet you can't wait to make some smoke! Yes, please, do let me know how things go.
This video really helpful me reload my 100 rounds of Kynoch Martini ammo I bought, thought I didn't have to cast new bullet lead I did have to re-paper patch the bullets after priming them with a non corrosive primer and proper black powder instead of cordite, but now I have a video to help me cast my bullets when I get ready to reload my Martini ammo this coming week Thanks!
Great! Although I haven't had any experience with old Kynoch brass, I have heard of them being a bit fragile... Perhaps annealing them will help with longevity...
Excellent video as usual Rob. Loved to see heat haze off the barrel in the last shot fired, I can imagine in battle they would be roasting.
+Anon Hunter Thank you very much. Yes, there are many accounts of Martinis that were too hot. Leather handguards were used unofficially from the late 1870s, and were later, by the early 1880s, produced as an issue item.
Awesome work good sir! Paper patching is extremely tedious and I don't have the attention span for it, great to see it done right!
+murpheysmuskets Thanks Murph. There certainly is a bit of "assembly line" tedium to it.... They look so good though... Cheers.
The more videos out there about paper patching the better. This is an art that never should have fallen by the wayside.
+DoughboyJonesmk2 Glad you approve.... :-) Thanks.
+britishmuzzleloaders It's just that too often shooters get caught up in the new and flashy (which there's nothing wrong with) when there's just as much (well, probably quite a bit more) joy and satisfaction from the nuts and bolts DIY aspect of the hobby. The monetary savings are nice, too.
DoughboyJonesmk2 Well put!
Love how you catch the brass after ejection. What a chad👌
Slick drills though, no?
britishmuzzleloaders slick like greased lightning pal✌️.
Great video. My grandfather had a Martini Henry dated 1887. When you looked at the barrel end you could see that it had been sleeved twice, once for .303 Enfield and then for .22 Long Rifle. It bore the stamp "Converted by CG Bonehill of Birmingham for the Soceity of Minature Rifle Clubs. As I didn't have a FAC I had to hand it in .... sadly. But I did shoot it before that .... in .22 LR. So heavy there was no perceptible recoil. Pretended I was at Rourke's Drift for 5 minutes.
+john marsh That's too bad... 1887? Was it a Mk IV?... I can imagine the docile recoil with the .22. There is a VERY perceptible recoil with full bore rounds, mind you!... :-)...
Brilliant patience and attention to detail.
Thank you Drew. Glad you enjoyed it.
Thank You, your bullets and build methods are both precise and beautifully done!
You are most welcome. Glad that you found things interesting. Cheers.
Great job Rob, I have been paper patching the .45/70 and the .50/90 Sharps for my Sharps rifles. I have been wiping between shots, getting impressive results. I use Roosters paper patch lube to moisten the patch when I patch the bullet. Next step will be to work up a hunting load so I can shoot. 3-5 accurate shots with out wiping.
+Hugh Batesel Nice! It's so difficult to wipe with the MH.... For best accuracy with any BP rifle, I think that is the best practice, though. It's not particularly appropriate in the military context (either service or range related) but if absolute best results were to be had, I think this is a technique that would deserve attention. The blow tube certainly seems to be a reasonable (and period) solution... Cheers.
Inspired choice of Braganza for backing music!
Great vid, thanks!
Cheers.
Excellent video on what you expect when reloading. Well done!
Cheers!
you do a beautiful job making these rounds. i would loose it. lol.
Thanks!
I just happened across you when doing some research on the 1871 valise equipment and I am impressed. Your videos are very informative and interesting to watch.
Thanks very much! There is a video on the P71 here on the chancel.. look in the Martini playlist.
I have to admit its amazing to see this done and then think of the munitions workers that did this sort of work everyday for countless millions of rounds.
A great deal by children, too.
Your videos are fantastic and I'm very glad to have run across your channel. Thank you for these, they're fascinating. Watched a few others and I know I'll enjoy going back through the rest.
Thanks for that. Glad you are finding things to your liking!
Good, solid presentation as always Rob, many thanks.
+Duncan Andrews Glad you enjoyed it Duncan, thanks.
This wensday my martini mk2 arrives.
And also thanks to you I was able to identify it as British made.
Now I'll save up so I can contact Martin about reloading dyes and molds for bullets.
Martyn will set you up! Great guy.
Thank you these were the best reloading videos I've seen.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I LOVE! Seabee! or Rednecked? Engineering! Get it done with What You Have.
Must admit "I Would" try cotton thinking about military distractions' of yours' or enemies' info.
Cant believe I watched this dude this long? and old is new again, but I have learned more black powder tech?
These videos are great. Awesome detail.
+Ryan X Glad you found it interesting, thanks.
Superb video , easily understood and clearly explained 👍🇬🇧
Thanks! Glad it was interesting!
great skill popping the action and catching the casing
I'll take Martini parlour tricks for $500 Alex.
Well this has been an absolute education. Thank you! I found this extremely interesting.
+gnarshread Excellent! Glad you enjoyed it. Cheers.
Great video and great choice of background music...I heard Braganza/Lass o Gowrie and Sir Manly Power/Paddys Resource. Both Queens and Middlesex Regiment marches. Thank you.
Cheers!
Such a good channel. Thank you for efforts.
Thanks!
Fantastic info, I am just about to cast for a chap who shoots the Martini, and I needed to get my head around all the info I could absorb, I will continue to subscribe and possibly look for my own Martini, cheers
Nice! Glad to have you along!
Great shooting. Thank you for posting.
Cheers! You are welcome!
Great job on the martini cartridges.
+mark cooper Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it.
Almost dropped my coffee when he said "small puckers". Not what I initially heard😅
Haha!
well done man you do a very good job explaining everything
Cheers!
💰💵💷💷💶🍻
I always found paper patched bullets interesting.
On a side note, at 15:26 are you wearing hob nail shoes? I like your commitment to historical details.
Yes they have studs..
That was bloody fascinating.
Glad you enjoyed it!
great info. I just picked up a Canadian Mk1, one of the few actually issued (marked on butt) Looks like great fun to shoot.
I just happen to have an 1875p saw back bayonet that fits the Martini Henry, no insp. marks so most likely for a volunteer unit.
What a great find! Will you be shooting it?
An Excellent tutorial, many thanks!
+MrRedbeard762 You are welcome! Cheers.
First time out with my Martini was good . Took ten paper patched .459 cast bullets with 80 grains FF. Fresh from IMA I fired two rounds to verify it was safe with a sandbag on the action. Six were in a three inch group with two fliers. I am happy. Next group will be patched closer to .470
Nice! Sounds like you are well on your way!
Very well done. Love your work.
Thanks Dave!
Great video Rob, Hope you can get over here soon
+Greg King Funny you mention that Greg (and thanks, by the way)... I have some time coming (now confirmed) in September of this year.... The intent is to pay a visit to your side. Just need some timings and an RV and I'll make best effort to be there. Exciting stuff!
I`m sure we have an event round aout then. Its the smoker at Bisley ranges in Feb I will speak to Sgt Harman about events and timings. Oh by the way we are stopping in Canada house at the ranges. Happy new year to you and your family.
+Greg King And a very happy New Year to you and yours! I do hope that something works out around that time, too. Definitely looking forward to the possibility of visiting and learning from the Diehards. Hope the smoker is full of white smoke and good times!
I guess the children who did this in Burningham 145 years ago could have gave you lessons on this process? Great video, gave me ideas for doing this, thx.
+Richard Logan I'm sure they could have... I hope that I'd out a bit more care and attention into things than they, though!... Cheers.
Hi !
Exelllent video as allways Rob!
I am still struggeling to get my Mk IV to behave.
Will test different loads this winter .
Hard cast bullets helped.
Keep up the good work!
Greetings, Alf!
+oljerigg Hi Alf. I too found that harder bullets worked better. I only use 20-1 vs the service 12-1... Tin is so expensive. Mk IVs tend to have a bit of a bigger bore. What are you patching to?
+britishmuzzleloaders Hi ,Rob! im in the planning state when it comes to pp.
Need to get me a mold.What do you recommend? (Mk IV)
Greetings from Norway,Alf!
oljerigg Hi Alf. Aim for a mould that will give you .471 or so for the Mk IV... Tom at accurate will work with you to accommodate different sizes on existing designs... Of course, you need to determine what paper you will be using... measure it and add the sum of four thicknesses to the bullet, this is the total that should measure .471/2... I have had great initial success with my PP mould (in this video).. The .457, parallel sided version, that is. Get one in .459 and I should think that it would be OK in your Mk IV... or you could use mine... I thought that the fatter "shoulders" of the parallel sided style might engage the bore in a more positive way than the tapered service-style bullet... I need to do more testing, but as I have found, things are pretty good right away...! Cheers. PS I think that Tom lists my bullet as a 46-510 PP
I love this! Great job!
I use the .460 parallel bullet and onion paper. Works well. Instead of using a cotton ball I use something sold at Buffalo arms. It is a black powder filler and has lubricant in it. This works very well as this works with the cookie. I get good groupings at 100yds.
+Stew Knoles Great! Sounds like you have a combination that works for you. Cheers.
The product is called Puff-Lon. Its the best filler by far that I've seen or used.
Another outstanding video. Makes me want to obtain a few rds to put through my Martini wall hanger brought home from Afghanistan...from a vice...at a distance....with a long piece of string activating the trigger...
Haha!
Mr. britishmuzzleloader, you might try one egg white in about a cup of warm water as your bullet patching mixture. You can moisten the patch on a sponge dampened with this mixture. I think you’ll find that the patch adheres tighter and quite well to the bullet. Cheers!
Thanks for that! Cheers.
All that work for a 0.1 sec of squeese, followed with a shot. Now thats dedication for your hobby.
It is what it is, I guess.
One factor that can be important is the direction of wrapping on the paper patch, it is said to be better to wrap, (as you have done), so that the patch will unwrap on exiting the muzzle, although, as in your video ,the patch should be cut by the rifling into small strips, it is a good idea to follow the clockwise wrap, (looking from the rear of the bullet), for right hand twist barrels. and of course anti clock, for left hand twist barrels.
+Englishman French Good points. I'll add an annotation as to the direction of the paper...
Is there any places that have the 468 or 475 grease groove bullet molds? I just bought my first MH and it seems much easier that having to make grease cookies and PP the bullets... actually it looks like CastBulletEngineering actually has molds and sizers for those.
Yep, they have lots of moulds.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Yes ive been learning thanks to you an others thank you. I just bought the 470 diameter 480 grain grease grooved mold it was $260! the handles i guess are a separate $100 and theyre in australia that exactly on the opposite side of the world from me in Mchigan. I appreciate any company that produces this stuff tho lol. They couldnt stay in business if they charged less. LEE isnt making custom molds rn and their not cheap either when they do. but 457 molds are common and cheap.
@@danm7298 This can get expensive, for sure...
Excellent video!
+Homespunmusic Glad you got something out of it. Cheers.
EXTREMELY EDUCATIONAL.
THANKYOU VERY MUCH! :)
You are welcome.
Victorian soldiers would probably be more than puzzled if they saw how much effort it takes to shoot a Martini nowadays! Great video, I wondered if you could get a hold of a thermal camera one day? I'm very curious about how hot a Martini barrel gets under rapid fire, and it would be a very informative video IMO
+lptomtom HI there. 10 rounds rapid will make the barrel too hot to hold on to... 20 rounds will make it too hot to touch... That's the actual barrel, mind you... A common practice was to wrap a leather guard around the back of the barrel and forestock to protect the hand, on active service. I can't speak to the number of degrees it reaches, but functionally it doesn't take long. As for the ammo, it was rather more complicated back then, what with the rolled brass cartridges.... the case had to be folded in at the neck and then the bullet crimped into that... I doubt if one could replicate this procedure without some sort of somewhat sophisticated equipment.. Cheers.
One small and easy method you can try, is to on wrapping on the patch, instead of "crimping" the end, if you hold your finger and thumb on each side of the bullet base, and turn the bullet with your right hand, it will turn in the patch evenly, all around the base, (like an old type sweet wrapper), this does away with the notchy base and will save the rolling process, I also take advantage of the loose fit bullet, and only neck size after loading, this grips the bullet just enough to stop it falling out.
+Englishman French Great suggestions, I'll give them a go... Do you use a cupped base bullet or a flat base one? Cheers.
+britishmuzzleloaders : I have tried both bases, I swage my bullets on my home made swaging die, so I only have to change the shape of the punch, but it does not appear to make any difference, with or without, if a lot of length of patch is left to overhang, the cupped base is probably better, but with you short tailed patch the flat base is easiest, the cup is really only useful to tuck the excess patch into. Chris.
+Englishman French That's what I am led to believe... The cupped base allows for better seating of the bullet on the wads by allowing for room for the "twist" of paper. Cheers.
I keep thinking of a line, a hundred troopers long, firing as fast as they can!
There would be a considerable amount of firepower there.
Excellent video as usual. What are the exact dimensions on the Accurate mold? Looking to get that one myself. Thank you.
X Ring Services will set you up. Martyn offers that mould.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Thank you sir!
Great video!
good shooting and great video!
+patriot canuck Thanks!
that heat coming of the barrel tho
It does get warm, for sure!
The total process of casting the bullets, patching them and the steps to assembling each round is considerable. The recoil abuse of 85 grains of black power and a 500 grain bullet provide are all factors revealing just how determined you are to shoot a Martini-Henry 577/450 rifle.
It really is not that much of pain...
You are a great maker of video.
+William Haley Thank you for your kind words.
The Martini Henry: an awesome rifle to own and shoot but a pain to buy more ammo for
That's why you make it. 🙂
Great Video wish you would have done this Paper Patching earlier would have saved me a lot of trial and error mostly error . I enjoy watching your chanel and yes I have Subscribed. Cheers from down under.
+mrbikehunter Hope that you are up and running with your paper patches now. Does your process differ any from mine? Glad you enjoyed the video. Cheers.
+britishmuzzleloaders I ended up with a 457 lee bullet PP it shoots quite well. The paper patching i do was gleaned from several different sources must have guessed correctly to be the same as yours . I have an A4 template that I use with a guillotine cutter and for that puckering I have a block of alloy with a conical hole drilled in it that i put the bullet in and move it round and round . I enjoy history that I can touch started out with a Snider just like Ned Kellys (Australian Bushranger) he robbed the bank at Euroa in 1879 with one he called Betty then i just had to have a Martini like yours and I already had the mustache.You have cost me a lot of time and money no regrets .. Thankyou
mrbikehunter Hahaha... Money and time.... I'm right there with you, though... wouldn't have it any other way. What so you use in your Snider?
+britishmuzzleloaders I am using a 60 cal round ball now getting 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 metres and I am happy with that. I tried a 578 mini ball and it was just terrible am going to call CBE- Cast Bullet Engineering here in Queensland and see what they have for me.
The sound of this weapon in awesome!!!!Just like bf1
It's the other way around, my friend.
In service these rounds were manufacture at the Woolwich Arsenal on the South Bank of the River Thames at Woolwich on the South East edge of London. . filling took place in a long brick building, known in the 1860's as Building 12. Loading was done by children with Adult supervision. Needless to say powder spilt, working it's way into the grain of wooden benches. It was not unknown for a trail of powder to be sparked, wether by accident or delibrately. Mostly there was apprently a shrpSphitt type noise and everyone jumped. On one occasion this effect ran away causing panic and everyone running from the building. Officially the two sides of the doors at the end of the building should have swung open till they hit against the wall. However newly installed gas lamps on the outside of the building stopped this and the doors only opened 90 degrees. In the resulting crush a number (Exact escapes me at the moment) of Adults and children died. Subsequently one of the first Enquirys in industrial acccident deaths in the UK was carried out. The result blamed one the hildren for taking 'Illigal' material into the shed, and causing sparks.
Interesting story!
Why are the original cartridges always messed up?
They are rolled brass cartridges, that's how they looked. I was also puzzled the first time I ever saw an original cartridge.
wow 4 years ago. with all that I know now im surprised I was the writer of that comment. but at the time I didn't know
Impossible to dislike this ;)
Thank you!
It's fun to shoot paper patch slugs...i use 2 types of loads ..one load I call a military type and another called creedmore...i get them to to shoot minute of angle and that's with a ten shot string...no blow tube with the military style not necessary if you shoot fast...
Nice shooting!
Scary but forty years ago with a .457 bullet and patched out to .470 , loaded pretty much the same way you did I had similar results with 85 grs. of two F under a beeswax and paper wad with a 475 grain bullet. I took out a cougar at a paced out 400 yards downhill at a shallow angle. It was with a long lever Mk. IV. I guess times don't change what really works.
Post script: I used old lathe made brass seeing that brass was hard to come by and original rounds were expensive.
Thanks for sharing! If it works, don't change it!
Great video, very informative, however I can’t find part 1
There is a place holder video in the ammunition playlist. Cheers.
One time this rifle was so popular in Turkey that there are families named Martin here. Hard to believe but true. Before the establishment of the new Turkish Republic Turkish people did not have surnames, after 1920's the new Government decreed that every family should choose a surname. A man who was an avid deer hunter loved his rifle so much that he choose "Martin" as his surname, his descendants including a famous footballer named "Ersen Martin" has this surnameç
That is a great story! Thanks for sharing.
Very educational
I’m just learning here gathering any informations that I can get my hands on
I have a set of Lee dies ( no press yet ) can I size with the Lee set or I have to get a 44/80 rugger too
Do you have to size the casing every time after firing
And what is the overall length of the cartridge when it’s ready
Thank you
I neck size after each use. As for the OAL, it is seated to touch the rifling and then backed off a couple thou.
is there a possibility that you could use a .470 nitro die for neck sizing for the thinner bullet instead of the full length .577/450 one? or maybe another like .460wby, .458win/lott for the neck? or would that not work. as always great vids!
Perhaps, I have found that the modified version shoots better so that is what I typically shoot... Sticking with what works best, you know. I suppose that one of the dies you mention might work just the same to give the neck a bit more tension...
How does the performance of the paper patch bullets compare to grease groove bullets in the Martini Henry? I have experimented with PP bullets in my 45-70 Sharps and found them to be fairly inconsistent compared with grease groove bullets. I use 20-1 lead/tin alloy and black powder as well. I typically get 1 to 1.5 inch groups with grease groove bullets, but they open up to 2-3 inches with the paper patch bullets. I have a tapered PP bullet as well.
I found that I got similar results with both, with a parallel sided PP bullet, that is.
Do you have a video of your snider cartridge process curious what your powder and filler used
Not yet, but soon. The best results have been with 62gr FFFg and corn meal filler.
If I remember correctly, wasn't the patched bullet dipped in melted bees wax and pushed thru a sizing heated sizing die prior to being loaded in the cartridge?
Only the bottom third was.... to act as a sealant.
Another excellent video, with much thought and research gone into it, very much appreciated ! One thing that would make life easier would be to turn up a neck sizing die, you could then just size the case neck to whatever dia gave you the best neck tension, I noticed that you did not flare the case mouth, does that not give your patches a tear? Many thanks for posting.
+Englishman French Ahh,..... I figured someone would say something about that before I put up the annotations.......:-)... I have since added some notes and links to previous videos showing how I prep the cases... They are indeed flared (and incidentally prepped in exactly the same way as for the grease groove bullets).. Should have probably mentioned that in the soundtrack, eh?... :-) ..... Cheers.
Great video rod , I have a question about black powder
I just bought 2 lb of 2 Fs schuetzen at the chiliwack gun show , I always used 70 Gr goex 2 fs for my snider and 85 Gr for Martini Henry, I want wondering if I can use the same powder charge with schützen
Should be similar...
did the sporting variant of the martini henry as made by the likes of Westley Richards use the standard bullet weight, the carbine bullet weight or a completely different bullet weight?
My understand is that if the calibre was the same as the military Martini, then the rifle used the equivalent of the military ammunition.
is that 20-1 leqd tin mix by weight?
Yup.
at 1805 on the video you can see heat rising off the barrel
+bern bren Yes you can. It was getting on to dusk and the temperature was dropping rapidly... Cool view though, eh?
Maybe I should draw something like that. The heat rising from the rifle.
This is years behind,but if you review these comments I have a tip,to grip the bullet without the neck sizing,load the bullet then run the loaded round into the sizing die just enough to grip the projectile. 🙃
So if the bullet falls into the case without neck sizing, how does it stay in place to be run up into the sizing die?
I would love to make these and shoot my Mk1 but unfortunately i live in the UK.
Excellent information indeed.
Cheers Rob
+Tee Campez : So what is the problem ? All the components are readily available, the dies are expensive but they are out there second hand. Good Luck.
+Englishman French Gunpowder ?
+Tee Campez : That should not be a problem, Henry Krank has it in stock, but you could always use the horrid Pyrodex at a pinch.
+Englishman French Thanks for the tip, checked Henry Krank site....good site :)
+Tee Campez I see that EF has graciously chimed in with some good details... Look forward to hearing about your first shoot!..... :-)....
Sir, Greetings from the UK. I really like all your videos and a healthy sense of humour too. Do you sell DVDs of your series? I had to buy one and bought a Webley Martini last time I was at Bisley. Great stuff and please keep them coming. Robin H
Hello Robin. Nice to hear from you. Very happy that you are enjoying things on the Channel. I do not have a hard copy of the videos... Maybe when I have flushed out a complete "series" I'll put them all together into one. Cheers.
Cpuld you use a .45-70 mold as a substitute for the .457 mold? The .45-70 mold is .457 in diameter, but has grease grooves.
It would shoot. Paper patching and grease grooves, typically don't perform quite as well as a purpose designed PP bullet with smooth sides... Worth a try though.
If I was going to venture into paper patching, is there a mold you would recommend? Funds are limited so I can't buy 3 different molds? I understand that differences in rifles, loads, wind, barometric pressure, etc. can affect bullet flight.
The 505 gr... send an email to Martyn...
Curious as to the numbers on your headdress..... where did you get them and are they 'standard issue' for that cap?
Hi there. I made them. They are a little big but all regiments of the era used little brass numerals on their Kilmarnocks...
Thank you for your videos. I loaded up my first Martini Henry Paper patched rounds yesterday. Even copied your idea of custom boxes. (I did not use string though) I do have a question regarding the cotton filler. I filled up the case with polyfill to the point that it could not be compressed much more as I was worried that the card wad and grease cookie would be pushed into the case. Is it possible to use too much filler (Poly fill or cotton wool) which can create a pressure problem? (Maybe I am overthinking it, but I have only loaded smokeless cartridges until yesterday). Can you please give a newby some advice regarding how tightly should the cotton wool or poly fill be packed in the case?
HI there. Glad to hear that you have made the foray! I wouldn't worry too much about having to compress the fill. Just put enough so that it fills the space. There doesn't need to be much pressure on the wad column to keep it in place. Sounds like you might be putting a bit too much in. "Too much" in the sense that you don't need that much rather than "unsafe" too much. If you use a solid filler like corn meal or such, that can increase pressure because int forms a solid mass in the case and then must be squeezed down to make it through the neck. In actual fact, some don't use any filler at all, relying on the grease in the grooves of a GG bullet only. Cheers.
Thank you very much for your reply. Looking forward to take the old Martini out finally in short order!
awesome !
+Wagner Tom Thank you!
Best prescriptive video that I know of thanks a lot. Some questions please.
I patched a .459 580gr geese grooved bullet up to .472 then run them throu the sizer and now measures .4695 - You think they will be ok for the Martini?
I'v done the same thing for the Sharps I patched a .450 bullet up to .462 run them through the sizer. They came out at .4595. Think they will work ok. I am trying to make a bullet that is a tight fit to see if it will give better groups
In the video are still going to "work up a load" what exactly does that involve?
Thanks a lot
Paul
Blrsdings
.469 will be fine in the Martini. Working up for me means different powder loads, seating depths, wad/grease cookie combinations, etc,.. the process I used for the Snider was documented in the so named, two part series on that rifle.
Hi Rob I’m getting into reloading my Martini and saw in this video you used a mold from accurate mold. What was the mold number so I can order one thanks
Contact Martyn at X Ring Services.
Hi I did contact him very nice guy thanks. I was wondering also what size punch you have for your martini wad cards. Thank
Fantastic video, as always. I love your appreciation for historical accuracy in your shooting! Out of curiosity, is there a known way to recreate the brass foil with paper patching cartridge for earlier Martini-Henry firing?
Cheers! I'm sure there is, but it certainly isn't worth it for something that would probably be un-reloadable... or at least supremely difficult to reload...
Was the original paper plaster waxed against the water?
I have a Steyr Kropatschek rifle and the original cartridges have a waxed patch.
Now I'm starting with Martini Henry.
Is waxed paper worse for shooting?
I noticed that no patch is now waxed.
Only the bottom quarter of the patch was beeswaxed. This is something that I have not done.
what was the powder charge of the original round . thanks great vid
85gr.... 1300 fps....
What powder do you use?
Do you know if there are factory loads and cost .
I did it and made a purchase of a martini MII ENFIELD 1880s cleaned and complete for 1,100.
That's why I'm looking for some cartridges to test fire it before I invest anymore money in it.
If you are interested, in Part One of the series most of that is explained.
Where did you get that cool hat?
Sally Pointer in Wales. She's a knitter of all kinds of historical hats and caps.
Rob, Sorry for posting to such an old video, however i have a question please. Which bullet did you ultimately decide upon to be the most accurate. I would like to go with historical accuracy, but if there are better choices im all for that.
Not a problem, Scott. I found that with proper work up, both the PP and the GG perform equally... but for ease of manufacture, the GG is a bit easier, but not that much... Paper patching isn't that hard to get the hang of.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Rob. Thanks for the speedy reply. That being said I really like the idea of PP so thats the way i will go, were you ever able to make the tapered bullet shoot as well as the parallel sided bullet? Im asking because im not sure which mold to purchase.
Once I got the parallel sided one up and running (I must admit that it was where my focus was as it was my design) I didn't really look back... the narrower .451 service bullet didn't seat nicely in the case mouth (with the 480 sized neck) and was also more of a PITA to patch...
@@britishmuzzleloaders Rob, Thank you for the information as well as the hard work and dedication you put into this wonderful channel. Looking forward to watching for many years to come. Best regards, Scott
Does the Gun Jam as often with this Ammunition then with the ofter Types?
+Mr Mundy HI there. No there are no jams. The problem with the rolled cases was that they sometimes separated at the rim and then the next round couldn't chamber. This was part of the reason that drawn cases were produced in 1885 and rushed to the Sudan. As the ammo today is all drawn cased, this problem really doesn't exist. Cheers.