My 14 guage European 6in1 butted mail disagrees. With testing it will withstand similar abuse as 16 guage 4in1 riveted. (Closest thing to a standard for hysterically accurate round ring maille) My hauberk weighs about 62pounds, but I like the weight.
@@NEOMNIMON my mail are made from small chain rings linked togather quite strong. cannot pull with bare hands but I used full plate armor anyway just used them to absorb impact force before it reach the inside pads.
There is also a thing called welded mail. That's even stronger stuff (but incredibly labour-intensive to make compared to the already labour intensive rivited type) But another option is to do what the Romans did: In the place where you're most likely to get hit, put an extra layer of mail! In the case of a roman soldier this would be the shoulders, since the rest of their body would be behind their large scutum shield. And the head was obviously protected by a shiny galea.
Sharks have bite force; they don't need blunt force weapons. Chainmail won't save you from crush injuries. Fortunately, they tend not to use their full bite force when they're just checking you out.
iamchillydogg, are you familiar with the bite force a bull shark is capable of? Or the tiger shark, who routinely bites through the shells of green sea turtles?
To think how many lies the mainstream thinks about medieval martial equipment, to think how many lies i believed before discovering your channel, thanks, have a sub
joe botsch but with the birth of this global network where few knowledgeable people can compete with the old media monopoly, the truth emerges to light in the form of a rough crystal with a budget 1000 times smaller and 1000 times more appealing, washing away the fog of lies in aspects such as history, politics, philosophy, technology, science and many other subjects
not to add to your paranoia, but how do you know this guy isn't feeding you incorrect information? What are his credentials? Some hobbyist you found on youtube that you liked? I'm on here watching too. Just playing devil's advocate.
I’ve had a potentially brilliant and potentially stupid idea: weld the ends of butted mail with a very small weld, it would increase strength greatly, and then layer some riveted mail with large washers on top
@Theo Paidi a lot of reasons, for one butchers and other jobs that handle sharps knives or other objects often wear mail in the form of gloves to protect their hands and not to mention if you're living in an area with high amounts of stabbings having mail would provide you with a great deal of protection against knife attacks
Which is why I liked Myth Busters and the approach its cast had when they used pigs as a human analog, they usually set the pigs up on line so that they could at least simulate the behavior of actually getting struck.
It depends on where you get it. A lot of the actual armor pieces people will still make out of steel but it’s also kind of unreasonable for people to expect chainmail to be made historically accurate. People today aren’t using it for going into battle. I make chainmail jewelry and I use aluminum because it would be ridiculously heavy otherwise. Likewise, when people buy chainmail to use for cosplay, they don’t need it to be strong enough to stand up to an actual blade.
@@wetstoffels3198 have your never heard of decorative armor? Lots of modern and even ancient tradition armor is made of less then optimal material if it's not meant to be used in real battle. Ceremonial armor, decorative weapons, do you think they are using their best steel for these. Nope. Besides, chainmail jewelry is great for nerdy flare. I know my necklace gets as much attention as my boyfriend's chainmail shirt (thinkgeek). And niether of those items are combat ready.
Dragon Sorcerer X SCA friend of mine brought in a full suit of light plate and did a back handspring in it to win an argument with our DM about whether or not he should get his dex bonus in heavy armor. Was an eye opener. Knights were athletes not lumbering idiots.
Could he still do the back handspring if he had his shield, longsword, 50 gold pieces, 200 silver pieces, backpack with 3 days rations, 3 healing potions, 2 vials of holy water, 1 torch, holy symbol, longbow and quiver with twenty +1 arrows?
While I'd agree that technically he would still be dextrous im real life, you dint get your dex bonus in dnd while wearing plate because the book says so, and because balance. Think about it, without granting additional bonuses, theres no reason to wear light armor over full plate in the game if full plate, shield, and max dex gives me 24/25 AC lol
Stealth checks and encumbrance are the first two things I'd think about when deciding between light or heavy armor. Not to mention a certain level of Str should be required to wear the heavy stuff easily. You can't sleep in plate either, can't cast spells unless you are proficient in it. There are plenty of reasons to decide between heavy or light armor. It is called being prepared for the situation. If you are going into a fight you should want as much armor as possible. If you are scouting, aka not actively looking to enter combat, you'll want light armor to hide, swim, climb and move silently to get around easier.
Once I saw your channel, I immediately binge watched your vids, I'm surprised it still doesn't have millions of subscribers that it deserves! We are trying to raise a small larping community in our locality and I'll be sure to send them your way most especially to educate them about modern misconceptions. Keep up the great work
History channel is not what it used to be they have been producing a lot of fiction recently to maintain ratings because the lack ofeducation in the average population means they just are not as concerned with the truth sometimes when they are looking for something entertaining. Yes there are many smart and educated people out there just not as large a percent as there were a generation or two past. Generally speaking. Just one example Roland the Bear(Died c878AD)and Ivar the Boneless(Died c773AD) in real life were not alive at the same time. No Shad deserves his own tv channel.
@@rembliekain7643 your absolutely spot on. & its not just the history channel its education in general thats poor, compared to when I was at school . History used to be about our heritage our past & now its about WW2 or Africa . People are leaving school & don't know about the history of their own country. On utube I'm always having arguments with people that don't wanna know the truth, they think they know everything. Most of the utube history sites are clueless or repeating stuff that's long outdated. We're updating/correcting what we thought was right yeara ago but know it's not especially with the new technology we have today . But sadly most people aint interested in learning anymore
@@cearfarseer9725 me too! I used to love old history channel , I can't stand the alien & other nonsense they show nowadays. It's basically the same thing everytime. There's not any decent proper history channels atm I mean ancient history, these days history seems to mean ww1 or ww2 . I remember history channels About the romans, was on about 20 yrs ago ,& each episode was an hour and about a different thing , military, ,- senators & how government works, - Clothing, jewellery & fashion of Roman men & women.. each episode was great Really in depth & explained ev thing about the topic . They did a similar one about Saxons too! .. I havnt seen anything really good & informative like that in years. There use to be really good things on most days of the week on Hist Ch. Now it's very occaisionly.
If I remember right, the romans started using mail after coming into contact with the celts. Im pretty sure they invented it. The roman army was very good at taking other cultures technologies and adapting them to their purposes and mass reproducing them. The gladius is another good example of this.
Not really. But its like Medieval knights; you train while wearing it so it feels like you're not. You Learn to run faster while wearing it because you get stronger.
And fuck up your back. I wore ceramic body armor for years. It kills your back. Steel, like we're talking about, isn't much different. Maybe a rookie, but a veteran wearing that stuff for years? He's going to let you go.
Perks of Mail armor; amazing weight distribution that actually helps to prevent back damage. Not to mention depending on the officer; you're not usually standing, you're sitting in a cruiser.
Could you find out for me Arron where your buddy gets the armor he wears? I'm looking into wearing some on a daily basis when I go out in public and I'm wanting some high quality riveted mail.
Watching this while making a mail tunic. Sadly only butted because I don’t have the stuff and experience to make riveted, yet, but I would love to make a riveted tunic someday.
Nice to read someone else is actually making this. Currently working on my riveted mail tunic ( roman mail, 50% solid/50% open rings, purchased premade rings). Still remember the first times putting it on, the feeling is just..majestic? And its soo light, just about 6 Kg. Could wear it all day. Weaving was done several month ago, i did rivet half of the open rings in "chains" before weaving everything together... slows down the visible progress but is much easier than riveting every open ring in the finished piece. Now im left with about 40% rings to rivet. Working on it several times a week, still plenty of hours to go. Just wanted to let you know that your not the only crazy one to actually do this, keep it up!
Quite nice! Chainmail is good - but ONLY when it is coupled with padded gambeson. Otherwise, sword/mace/pike would crush the bones and rip the flesh under the chainmail.
Even with flexible leather or a padded gambeson a strong impact could still break bones through chain but it was harder, the break was less likely to be a shatter and the chances of your skin staying intact were much better. This saved you from infection, a bigger killer than war at the time, and if you could get the bone set properly you'd be fine.
a point to note is that mail alone absorbs quite a bit of impact. not by direct resistance, but dispersing the energy. the ripples you see when mail is struck, is energy flowing away from the point of impact. Mail worn alone over robust cloth provides decent protection, hardly worthless with padding. But against heavy impact, yep that gambeson really helps! The combination of the two seems to be greater than the sum of the two layers.
@@jlokison You might want to read some current historical medical research. Find anything on historic wounds written by Dr Richard Swinney! (An ER Surgeon and medical historian)You'll find it very enlightening. The belief that open wounds were very likely to lead to death by infection is often over-stated. It ignores some important points: the effectiveness of medieval wound treatment, especially in post-Crusade era, such as use of wine for wound cleansing, and the very robust immunity of medieval adults. Not saying your point isn't valid, just that the open wound=death by infection we used to hear is being challenged. Something about study of medieval bodies with lots of healed old wounds, which we used to assume were a certain death.
I am Shad I am actually planning to test a mail armour in the way that it shall be tested and make a video about it so people could see what bollocks we are fed with. It might take a while but I thank you so much for inspiration.
I am Shad Definitely :-) If you ever considered visiting Central Europe or the Czech Republic or our neighbourhood countries like Germany or Poland which are more famous for their HEMA and fencing skills I´d gladly help you :-)
it pisses me off so much. But when making cheap costume mail, it saves on rings significantly. I had a suit of it, in hindsight it was complete garbage. Most entertainingly, when I went and made another suit of butted mail, although with the pattern rotated 90 degrees.. It physically weighed like 30% more, but only felt like it weighed about the same, probably because properly angled mail actually kinda hugs/squeezes your body, and distributes the weight better, was really strange.
ive seen some videos where they wrap something in shitty mail, literally stand on top of their target and start chopping at it like they're chopping firewood. It doesnt really matter how good the armor is, if your standing on top of your enemy and hacking away at him like a stubborn log that armor will break. I saw a guy rambling about how good katanas were and he used two handed chops to wack away and some butted chainmail like that and literally broke the mail by using the katana like a freaking axe and busting the mail apart an then went on about how katanas were unstoppable killing tools unrivaled by even todays thermonuclear warheads in pure murder potential and blah blah blah...
@@arthas640 in that regard then a common Rock could be pounded through mail given enough blows and time. And speaking of time rocks have killed more people throughout all of history than any other weapons system in existence. Therefore the humble, almost ever present, rock is by far more murderous than any katana.
Also as you mentioned, mail wouldn't be just by itself over the person's skin, they'd have a gambeson underneath. Chainmail was used as the outer layer of a system of armor and taken as a whole (gambeson + chainmail), was very effective against slashing attacks and even piercing ones from blades that weren't pointy enough.
A bit brash at times, but everything you say is 110% true! Historical chainmail is so much different than how we think of it today! Would love to try and assemble a shirt of riveted mail one day when I'm in retirement haha.
Very good video! Mail is *still* being used against cutting, used for over 1000 years. You. Do. Not. Cut. Through. (real) Mail. End of story. Games, movies, etc. should get this right. Add proper gambeson under a hauberk, and you're pretty nicely covered. Light, mobile, and excellent vs. cutting. Thumbs up, Shad!
I own a pair or chain mail gloves that I found buried deep in the back yard of a house I bought years back. These gloves were accompanied by a rather large pair of metal covered boots and a wooden knife handle. My son located these items with a detector for metal and we thought, for fun, that maybe these were medieval items belonging to a soldier or a crusader perhaps. We were told that indeed they were very old, but not likely of the medieval period. Nothing else was ever found and we have since framed our find with much pride as they are so interesting and a great conversation piece~ A Very good show this night Shad, I thank you!
Probably for a butcher or woodworker of some kind. Butchers are legally required here in the US to be given chainmaip gloves, and a lot of wood workers of many types chose yo wear them for safety reasons
I have a question, if a gambeson was good at protecting you against cuts, and then you have chain mail protecting you even more from cuts and a little in thrusts. Why were swords still a thing in the medieval ages? Why just don't use a mace and make sure that your hit counted instead of a cut and have the unpleasent surprise that the gambeson was really good or that he's using riveted chain mail? Thanks in advance for anyone that answers me :)
The interesting thing is that swords became far less of a thing on the battlefield for that armour problem you point out. They were often carried as backup sidearms but not the main weapon. Polearms like the pike, billhook and poleaxe were used. The sword was still very big though, because it was the side arm and people carried it for personal defence in civilian environments, where armour wasn't worn.
Swords were also a large status symbol in medieval times. They were the equivalent to a medieval Ferrari, so if you had one you were either extremely rich a member of nobility or had a sword passed down to you. also seeing a lot of knights and high nobility were related back then they wouldn't want to kill each other on the battlefield, one so they didn't have to apologies to there family for killing there brother and also because they can ransom them back to there families
Not true. Swords weren't that expensive and peasants and farmers also had swords and even some used cheap armor. Fancy swords and highly valuable swords were not used when strolling around town.
+jengaaaaa That would depend on the era we talk about. circa 600's -> 800's a simple sword of steel was a status symbol because it was really, really hard to make a proper durable sword at that time and the best pattern welded swords were afforded such status that they forged legends (most swords of iron would snap in half if you tried to strike it). Peasants could at best afford a seax, a simple long-knife. circa 1200's -> 1400's a longsword was the status symbol of a moderately wealthy noble or a skilled swordsman as peasants could at best afford an arming sword, or as in germany where swords were banned from peasants, messers or large knives. When a young nobleman could afford a pretty and well-made sword, oh he would stroll through the town swaggering and showing it off. This is where the term "swashbuckler" eventually came from; a young noble, looking for a chance to show off his skill with his sword and buckler which were hanging from his hip.
Do it, use your new mail armor to cease control of the officer from the tyrannical grip of your King (the district manager) and take his title for your own!
I wanted to make a chain shirt using titanium rings... Problem is titanium is stupidly expensive and extraordinarily hard to work with... But think of the strength and lighthess..
OMG your logic for the movement of the body when hit make so much sense. You really know your stuff! And great point about the demo guys using the crappy mail without the rivets!
and if I remember correctly there are medieval bones with traces of mail rings being smashed into them by powerful blows but rings were not broken or cut.
Absolutely agree. Total common sense. I am a memeber of the SCA for over 20 years and we have these discussions with new people all the time. Love your channel.
I agree, chain mail when made right would work just as well as a metal chest piece, with the flexibility of leather. The only down side in my opinion is the weight, and the other material that you'd need to wear underneath the chain mail...
Sort of? Recently some German police started wearing chainmail 'cause they tend to get attacked more with axes and machetes and other tools that make good weapons instead of guns, or something like that. It's kind of weird, seeing riot cops wearing chainmail under a plate carrier and other tac gear, but also kinda cool. :D
JonatasAdoM Oh, of course. If it looks stupid but it works, it ain't stupid. That having been said, I don't think it looks stupid, it looks kinda cool. ^^
Now I wanna craft real chain mail with nano machines with super perfect rings, as you said. As you said piercing weapons is the weakness would smaller and/or more rings or even layered be better IRL.
I'm late, but if you're still around, could you talk about how riveted mail is constructed? When he was describing it I kept thinking "that must be so tedious to make". That had to be the reason everyone's cosplaying in the weak stuff, right? Because it's so much easier to put together?
THANK YOU ! You're absolutely right of course. One more thing to add. People often think medieval soldier wore armour against enemy sword and of course they did but foremost armour was used against arrows. And given the exception of specially designed arrowheads chainmail does a magnificient job to protect against arrows.
How about a pig in a gambeson in riveted mail attached to some rope hanging from a tree. Would that be a better approximation? Give these to Skallagrim or Lindybeige?
+Adrian Ivashkov You could get a ballistic torso like those used by Cold Steel, put it in maille, and give it a similar foundation to human legs and see what happens when you whack it.
Depending on the plate harness you have, mail underneath is totally unnecessary. Generally the only reason to use it is to cover areas that stiff plates can't get too no matter how well articulated they are
I've never really delved into this sort of thing, but now i've become really interested due to your videos. this is the second one ive watched. You debunking the false allegations of the chainmail simulations really boiled my beans dude! Hot deal
Thank you. I'm writing a dark fantasy novel & am researching weapons and armors. I will try and create my own lore, but I also want to have actual armor etc. that existed.
Thank you for sharing this informative video confirming the effectiveness of riveted chainmail. Especially for encounters with many of the Asian martial systems involving slicing weapons like the karambit, kukri, wakazashi, hudiedao.
some basic problems I have. There was historic butted maile. But it was tempered. There was much more riveted than butted, But because riveted was stronger than non tempered butted. There was also a noticeable amount of riveted that was not tempered. and none tempered riveted is not near as strong as tempered riveted. and not that much stronger than tempered butted. Depending on the quality of each some riveted is much weaker than tempered butted. . one of the biggest problem I have is even when gambeson is used testing maile. It is not proper constructed gambeson. It is not thick enough it does not have multiple layers of fabric, or enough padding. . most of the maile tested fails not just because it is butted, but because it is to heavy. heavy maile pulls tight and acts almost as if it is braced. Lighter mail can bounce and move, causing much more chance of a glance and a ripple effect that helps distribute the force. Yes it is true that heavier and thicker metal is stronger, but the heavier the maile the thicker the gambeson should be to allow for more movement. . Having worn all kinds of maile in all kinds of combat sports against wood, rattan, full weight metal weapons and solid lances in jousting. I have first hand knowledge that proper mail worn in the proper way is very effective. (not effective as plate, but that is a diffrent discussion)
hey @Eazy8 I tried using an industrial welder, melted the rings straight away, puddle on the floor, then I tried soldering them, which if you know what that is its a similar form of welding used for electronics, and that worked you have to heat the rings before adding the solder or it forms into little metal globs that do hold it tight, but any impact can break them off.
Thank you so much for this video to put Chain Mail into perspective as to it weak points and the differences in mail and the historical context! very informative! thanks again for your time in making this video!
My passion isn't really in chainmail or things like that. But I watched a couple of your videos because I love how passionatly an clearly you explain these things!
I absolutely love watching this nerd get all riled up over drama within his interest area lol. He had me completely invested in it too. Interesting stuff.
After decades in the SCA, I've finally acquired some proper riveted mail. About half the weight of the butted hauberk I used to wear. Can't wait to fight in it (with a coat of plates over it).
A few years ago I bought a set of chainmail. Due to not knowing any better, I bought a suit of butted mail. I loved it, but I was surprised at how heavy it was and how easily the links broke. I'm glad you made this video, I was guilty of a lot of the misconceptions you called out here. The only downside is that now I really want a set of riveted mail... ;-)
Exactly as I thought - these tests are using terrible mail and they are flagrantly disregarding the importance of energy transfer between weapon and target. Thanks for the video!
One of the cool things about fantasy is that you can bend things with a cool what if senario. What if you could have chains that were literally inpenetrable and were super light and flexible? Or like Brandon Sanderson finding a way to have realistic massive swords. Love the blend of fantasy and martial weapon prowess and theory.
Once the wire was coiled into a spring and then cut into the individual rings, they were flattened with a hammer, held over a candle or fire and then dropped in water which hardened it. This all happened before the rings were linked together.
another weird question have you heard of Washer-mail? It is a thing another you-tuber i watch came up with, it's basically 2 washers that are sandwiched over a fabric (heavy duty canvas stitched to soft leather is what he used) base then pop riveted together. He had made armor kind of like Samurai Haidatai upper leg armor. He makes mostly DIY apocalyptic Armor and Weapons.
"Mail is good stuff because people don't like to die, and it was used a lot in history by people trying to not die." Pretty much, yeah. He says it in another video: movies and games give us such a bad image of armor to the point of it being basically cosmetic. One strike and you're dead, even if it's not a vital organ...unless you have a monologue to give. Look at the entire LotR series! Armor was pointless because everyone slashed, stabbed, bashed, or shot right through it, from chainmail to full plate. Your only hope in books and games was to block their attack with your weapon, which was magic in that it attracted all arrows to it when you go into a defensive stance, or you were able to see the arrows and swat them out of the air. I love these videos. They bring realism back, which helps people like me in figuring out how soldiers and adventurers would be equipped in stories/worlds that we create.
Finaly a decent and accurate video about chain mail. Can you do a part two to this video about some of the less commonly used types of chain mail, such as 6 in 1, 8 in two mobius ring, and types that used differing sizes of rings, etc etc. please that would be awesome. I'd love to learn what you can tell us about other forms or patterns of chain mail that were used (perhaps less often, or not as commonly) aside from the standard 4 in 1 we know of. Perhaps detailing what these other types were used for could be beneficial as well. Such as Mobius ring armor was it just to add decoration to lighter chain armor used in ceremony or was it used to protect from spears, arrows, and stabby swords like the eppe as many not likely to know what they are talking about renaissance fair people like to say it was for? thanks again for this video i hope you do plan to make a part two.
The re-discovery of inexpensive drawn wire led to a proliferation of less expensive mail, much of which was made partly of butted rings. But even then half to two thirds of all mail rings in any work of mail, depending on pattern, were neither butted nor riveted, but rather were solid. This had been the rule since the Lorica Hamata, due to the fact that punching solid rings out of iron or steel plate (usually steel since puddling is easier in small batches) is much less time consuming than forming them on a mandrel. Solid rings, all other things being equal, are always stronger than either butted or riveted rings. When assembling mail one butted ring can connect to the center of as many solid rings as the selected pattern required. While riveted rings are stronger than butted rings, ignoring the fact that “le stoc” was used far less often the edge of the sword, mace, halberd, or spear. The heat treatment of the completed work was far more important in determining the strength of the completed armor than whether or not the connecting rings were of butted or riveted construction.
I like reading on islamic history of the crusades and the heavy units of both muslim and crusaders were considered nearly unstoppable due to their mail and lamellar armor
Absalutely right. I spent a year or so with the local SCA group (which is largely a group dedicated to gathering in a field and beating the crap out of each other with sticks while wearing armor). During this time I was able to wear mail with rounded rings, flat rings, both with butted, riveted, and soldered rings, and all made of various grades of steel from galvanized fencing wire to high end carbon type stainless. When the mail is made and fitted correctly, and worn with the appropriate gambison padding, there is simply nothing to compare it to. There is always a list of trade offs with armor of any sort but mail over gambison offers the best balance of protection, versatility, weight, comfort, etc, etc.
Well, these are some accurate points, but I have some issues with your general condemnation of butted mail. Of course it isn't historical accurate. Of course it is heavier than riveted. Of course, using cheap and weak materials will result in weak armour. And combining all of that results in a cheap TV prop. However, chainmail with thick enough rings, proper steel and 4-in-1 structure is still a tough obstacle. I own a niece mail shirt, springsteel, 4-in-1, quite thick rings and there is no chance in hell of ripping it apart like cloth. I actually tested it just now with my whole weight. It didn't rip. Maybe if some rings were already compromised I could do some damage, but not easily. Tl;dr: Saying that all butted mail is total crap is as much as a misrepresentation as the one you mentioned in your video.
How much quality spring steel (ie of a quality good enough to reliably forge many many small chain links from) d'you think was available 500-2000 years ago? & how many armourers/smiths could effectively use it to that purpose, even if they were known as such? We're not talking leaf springs for wagons/carriages or even xbows or basic firearms here; it's far more delicate work requiring much higher quality material & the knowledge & skill to manufacture many many tiny parts consistently, then assemble them..
I think you need to rewatch the video he does not totally condem Butted mail. He says that when compared to Riveted mail butted mail is not as good. He also explains why. However he does not totally condemn butted mail. He says it is "Realy weak" compared to Rivited mail. Also the tearing comment he says that "if you found a weak part on the edge" it could tear from that point and keep tearing. There is one point where he does say "of course its crap" referring to butted mail being improperly tested by being braced against a hard solid object
>could I use the same solder from circuit board solder Eeh, you could, it wouldn't be that strong though. You'd be much better off with a silver solder (expensive) or if you're fine going higher temps, brazing. But it'll be time consuming any of the 3 ways. Something I would recommend no matter what you're doing, make half the suit solid rings. Just buy washers, they're a bit more expensive than making rings yourself, but given that only half of the suit needs to worry about solder joints breaking... it makes the thing a hell of a lot stronger.
It is hard to solder to metal, it is too conductive. Also it is SOOO easy to break solder. Nowadays you can 3d print with metal, so you could make complete rings xD
>It is hard to solder to metal, it is too conductive Get a more powerful soldering iron. Like really, are you trying to use a 100w radioshack one? >Also it is SOOO easy to break solder. Depends on the type of solder and how well it's joined. I get the nagging feeling you have some pretty crappy solder joints if you're having "conductivity" problems. Also dependign on the kind of wire you're using you likely need to acid treat the metal before solder will bind to it. If you use the black anodized rebar tie wire that a lot of people use, solder doesn't stick to that for shit. (but its great for making riveted mail) Also there are dozens of ways you could reinforce the solder joint. >Nowadays you can 3d print with metal Can you? Far as I can tell that right is mostly restricted to companies that can afford the hardware (it ain't your $500 desktop 3d printer), and none of them are going to let you use their equipment to make a suit of chainmail. On top of that, 3d printed metal isn't very strong. 3d printing is good for complex geometry, but the majority of processes I've seen generate parts with properties slightly above stamped/sintered powdered metal. IE vastly below what could be produced by machining or forging. It's primarily used for components that need to be metal, but aren't likely to be under a lot of physical stress (usually more for thermal stress as they can build features into the part that could never be machined) >so you could make complete rings xD Probably not. You might manage a flat sheet of rings interlocked, but you'd still have to manually stitch them together with more rings (that'd need to be butted/welded/soldered/riveted) to make a functional shirt. Also you'd have to add expansions and contractions where needed for the thing to fit properly.
I think it is a tad off to say that riveted maille is lighter and stronger than butted maille. The lightest maille uses smaller rings in a tighter weave and will even provide much better protection against puncture damage such as arrows. At a certain size it is nearly impossible to rivet a ring without modern tools, so those weaves will almost always be butted. The reason that riveted is probably seen as superior is due to the time period it was made. When blacksmiths started with iron ore and needed to make each ring it would be very impractical to make tiny rings. Constructing a vest out of smaller rings would take far more rings and time to assemble, and impurities in the metal would be more of a danger. (Hand forged metal also tends to have more carbon so making thinner wire that could still be bent may be harder too) Today we can go out and buy great wire while back then just making some would be a huge chore. This would explain why using larger thicker rings would be most common, and why the riveted design would be preferable as larger rings are more vulnerable to opening under the force of an arrow or spear. I imagine a blacksmith would punch the rings out of hammered metal sheets to speed up production, so when you think about how chainmaille rings were made differently it is easier to see why they might choose to rivet them for extra strength. In addition you are absolutely right that no maille is designed to guard a solid object like wood since humans are more akin to a gummy bear than wood and flesh flexes to absorb much of the force behind a sword slice. In addition to that I think it is worth noting that not all maille is designed to protect, and not all craftsmen use good metal or good practices to make effective weaves of maille. The picture where someone had cut through maille into wood shows pretty clearly that the rings had a bad circumference to gauge ratio and good weaves of maille should be woven tight with just enough room to allow the weave to bend. With four-in-one weaves you should not be able to easily see through the maille or else it means the wire gauge is too thin, or that the rings have too large a circumference. Also you need to know the metal/alloy they used. I have used identical sized rings made of the same metal, but one alloy could never be torn by hand while the other I could bend or pierce with my little finger. If someone uses cheap wire from a craft store you could easily pierce it with a butter knife and real maille made for armor should never be possible to rip apart by hand even if it is butted. Maille is far more complicated than it first seems and there are certainly a ton of misconceptions about it. I am not a scholar of history, but I hear that it was actually very rare to have soldiers wear maille suits in history because it was so very hard to produce that only nobles and elite troops would be seen wearing some. It would make sense if true though, because it can take me months to make a vest out of pre-made rings and from my limited time working with a forge the thought of making a vest from scratch is terrifying and a blacksmith could probably make a hundred swords in the same amount of time. Games and fantasy movies spoil us with images of armies where even the weakest troops wear full plate and chain vests. I assume if the soldiers of past wars could see those films it would be about as shocking to them as it would be for us to see a movie portraying everyone in our time period driving a Lamborghini to work.
Actually, the smaller the rings, the more you need for a piece. The more links the shirt has, the HEAVIER it gets! I can say this from experience; I made a shirt out of 16 gauge wire, with an inside diameter of 1/4 inch. It was about 20-30% heavier than the one I made of 3/8 inch ID rings of the same gauge
This is also why when they learned the techniques neccessary to make plate mail they stopped making chain. The platemail provided better protection was actually lighter and took a lot less time for an armor smith to make or customize to the wearer.
Gambeson. A big one. With the mail. If you look at depictions of knights and fighter-types from back in the day often they look puffy. They had a lot of padding.
Possibly, it could help in many situations by spreading the impact force over a larger area. You'd have a better chance with mail than without, not greatly but some. Gambeson would multiply this effect.
I love watching your older videos now and again 😁👍 Also…if you were to put butted mail through a steel hardening process, after it’s finished being put together, would the butted mail hold up better?
Well, traditional Japanese "chainmail" was known to be butted. It is generally accepted that they did not start using riveted mail over there until, they saw European versions and copied those. Perhaps they could have had some earlier exposure to the style from Chinese merchants, but the point remains the same. Of course, the caveat is that Japanese mail was made for a rather different purpose, as it was largely worn to support other armor, or in the later post-feudal period by police forces and the like. It was not meant to provide the same kind of protections as European mail, largely because of the deficit of acute piercing weapons used in Japan. This all being said, I do not claim any form of expertise in this, I just wanted to make a point that you did not seem to address (especially as you brought up the topic of a katana point being unable to pierce "properly" made chainmail). Butted chainmail was used historically, but perhaps in a different context to the European made, riveted examples.
+Sagrotan Yes, but Japanese weapons (at least to my eyes) seem to have rather broad points. Katana, Yari, Naginata. I'm sure there are exceptions, as with anything, but from Japan ive seen no bodkin like points for piercing armor, nor any melee weapons sporting long, thin piercing blades
Actually, I just did some light research (wiki) and I did find that some types of Yari spear (straight blade) did have very acute piercing points, as did some arrowhead types. My point still stands I believe. Japanese armors seemed focused on giving the combatant excellent movement first, and protection second (the opposite model followed by later European armor). This meant that (generally) Japanese armor had exploitable gaps that one might be able to get a decent slash in. Thus the prevalence of cutting oriented weapons. This is not to say that Japanese weapons could not pierce, just that they were not optimized for that purpose as later European swords and pole arms were. But all this being said, I really am no expert in these things, I just enjoy thinking about them :p
"deficit of acute piercing weapons used in Japan." Number 1 weapon: bow, piercing weapon. Dominant weapon in japan. Number 2 spear: piercing weapon, next most dominant weapon in japan. Number 3 gun: not exactly piercing, but no chain mail helps there. third most dominant, but quickly became top dog. Katana is a backup weapon, used in civilian samurai life. Biggest problem: BODKIN ARROWS ARE NOT PIERCING ARROWS. They have only ever been found made of IRON. Not hardened steel as the modern tests pretend were a thing. They were flight arrows only, looking for lucky shots. WAR arrows were BROADHEAD and HARDENED STEEL. Japanese armour in the sengoku period emphasised a strong top of helmet and chestplate to reduce gunshot wounds. Japanese armour, like western counterparts, was already completely arrow proof. thus, why not use a broadhead to do as much damage to the less armoured parts, and mainly horses, as possible? Sankaku yari is a thin triangular cross section spearhead with a very sharp tip. Seen as all of japan, even the peasants, used plate armour, what is the point in pointy tips, exactly? In the age of plate armour, nobody beat it with pierce weapons. The Japanese used one weapon to beat armour, Kanabō. Big heavy blunt weapon.
Had some friends do some maille experiments some time ago. Dressed a pig carcass in gambeson and maille on a sprung stand. Both butted and rivetted withstood what was dealt out. Against arrows, not to much for the reasons you stated. Mauls and maces were amusing. While they didn't damage the maille they made a good job of tenderising the flesh beneath. But then those weapons aren't about piercing.
"Australian man yells about strong circles"
Best assessment of anything ever!
You said it wrong.
THIS COMMENT I EVERYTHING. 👍.
Thanks yoda
Lol
butted mail = for cosplay
riveted mail = for real use
My 14 guage European 6in1 butted mail disagrees.
With testing it will withstand similar abuse as 16 guage 4in1 riveted. (Closest thing to a standard for hysterically accurate round ring maille)
My hauberk weighs about 62pounds, but I like the weight.
@@NEOMNIMON my mail are made from small chain rings linked togather
quite strong. cannot pull with bare hands
but I used full plate armor anyway just used them to absorb impact force before it reach the inside pads.
There is also a thing called welded mail. That's even stronger stuff (but incredibly labour-intensive to make compared to the already labour intensive rivited type) But another option is to do what the Romans did: In the place where you're most likely to get hit, put an extra layer of mail! In the case of a roman soldier this would be the shoulders, since the rest of their body would be behind their large scutum shield. And the head was obviously protected by a shiny galea.
welded mail = for serious use
My next mail project is probably going to be weilded.
Jeez, talk about mail privilege.
I see what you did there!
Misogyny
AugurOfDankmeme i think you mean mailsoginy
Those dang silver mails alway oppressing us!
I actually identify as scale mail not my biological gender mail
hearing you talk about chain mail was surprisingly
*RIVETING*
R/beatmetoit
r/foundthemobileuser
NO
Someone had basically said the exact same thing before you.
Sloppy Salami
Ok boomer
Divers use chainmail to protect themselves from sharks.
Also those guys who play with energy (can't remember their name)
Sharks have bite force; they don't need blunt force weapons. Chainmail won't save you from crush injuries. Fortunately, they tend not to use their full bite force when they're just checking you out.
Jennifer Brewer
Do you think every shark in the ocean is a Great White?
iamchillydogg, are you familiar with the bite force a bull shark is capable of? Or the tiger shark, who routinely bites through the shells of green sea turtles?
butchers wear gloves made of very fine mail.
To think how many lies the mainstream thinks about medieval martial equipment, to think how many lies i believed before discovering your channel, thanks, have a sub
Alexandru-Adrian Petrovschi not hard to believe, just look at how they lied during this election about trump
joe botsch
but with the birth of this global network where few knowledgeable people can compete with the old media monopoly, the truth emerges to light in the form of a rough crystal with a budget 1000 times smaller and 1000 times more appealing, washing away the fog of lies in aspects such as history, politics, philosophy, technology, science and many other subjects
not to add to your paranoia, but how do you know this guy isn't feeding you incorrect information? What are his credentials? Some hobbyist you found on youtube that you liked?
I'm on here watching too. Just playing devil's advocate.
zegakai
He actually invested money into his hobby, that's denoting a serious and maybe addictive devotion to his hobby
How deep does your sub go?? Does it have any torpedoes?
Shad: "You need to have riveted mail"
Internet: "But it's too hard to make and too expensive to buy."
Glenn Griffon Gotta save up. That’s what I’ll do.
I’ve had a potentially brilliant and potentially stupid idea: weld the ends of butted mail with a very small weld, it would increase strength greatly, and then layer some riveted mail with large washers on top
@Pro Semite Just in case you have a trial by combat
@Pro Semite protection in the streets of london duh
@Theo Paidi a lot of reasons, for one butchers and other jobs that handle sharps knives or other objects often wear mail in the form of gloves to protect their hands and not to mention if you're living in an area with high amounts of stabbings having mail would provide you with a great deal of protection against knife attacks
Which is why I liked Myth Busters and the approach its cast had when they used pigs as a human analog, they usually set the pigs up on line so that they could at least simulate the behavior of actually getting struck.
could you say riveted mail is . . .riveting?
Go away
Take your laugh an leave
You forgot to mention that most chain mail nowadays is crappy aluminum.
It would cost a fortune back then
It depends on where you get it. A lot of the actual armor pieces people will still make out of steel but it’s also kind of unreasonable for people to expect chainmail to be made historically accurate. People today aren’t using it for going into battle. I make chainmail jewelry and I use aluminum because it would be ridiculously heavy otherwise. Likewise, when people buy chainmail to use for cosplay, they don’t need it to be strong enough to stand up to an actual blade.
@@mrsslibby6857 This isn't jewelry, it's armor.
Wet Stoffels yes but when most people are using it purely for aesthetics it might as well be.
@@wetstoffels3198 have your never heard of decorative armor? Lots of modern and even ancient tradition armor is made of less then optimal material if it's not meant to be used in real battle. Ceremonial armor, decorative weapons, do you think they are using their best steel for these. Nope.
Besides, chainmail jewelry is great for nerdy flare. I know my necklace gets as much attention as my boyfriend's chainmail shirt (thinkgeek). And niether of those items are combat ready.
Him:"butted male is absolute crap!"
Me making butted male as i watch this :"😢"
Ha, well no need to worry unless you're wearing it to actual battle lol
one welder later...
MAIL
Ups😆 mail...
I'm sure your boyfriend will forgive you 🙂
Deadliest Warrior: "This isn't real armor"
Me: "Your not real scientists/historians"
You're*
You're
Yore
Yör
U
I guess you could say that riveted mail is the lord of the Rings........................ XD
Wow....
Lol best comment ever
Samuel Leask well done
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Samuel Leask Oooh I see what you did there! XD
Now the DEX bonus to AC makes sense...
Dragon Sorcerer X SCA friend of mine brought in a full suit of light plate and did a back handspring in it to win an argument with our DM about whether or not he should get his dex bonus in heavy armor. Was an eye opener. Knights were athletes not lumbering idiots.
Depends on the knight
Could he still do the back handspring if he had his shield, longsword, 50 gold pieces, 200 silver pieces, backpack with 3 days rations, 3 healing potions, 2 vials of holy water, 1 torch, holy symbol, longbow and quiver with twenty +1 arrows?
While I'd agree that technically he would still be dextrous im real life, you dint get your dex bonus in dnd while wearing plate because the book says so, and because balance.
Think about it, without granting additional bonuses, theres no reason to wear light armor over full plate in the game if full plate, shield, and max dex gives me 24/25 AC lol
Stealth checks and encumbrance are the first two things I'd think about when deciding between light or heavy armor. Not to mention a certain level of Str should be required to wear the heavy stuff easily. You can't sleep in plate either, can't cast spells unless you are proficient in it. There are plenty of reasons to decide between heavy or light armor. It is called being prepared for the situation. If you are going into a fight you should want as much armor as possible. If you are scouting, aka not actively looking to enter combat, you'll want light armor to hide, swim, climb and move silently to get around easier.
Once I saw your channel, I immediately binge watched your vids, I'm surprised it still doesn't have millions of subscribers that it deserves!
We are trying to raise a small larping community in our locality and I'll be sure to send them your way most especially to educate them about modern misconceptions.
Keep up the great work
When I saw the picture of the riveted mail, my immediate thought was "GOD DAMN THAT MUST OF BEEN EXPENSIVE TO MAKE" lol.
It was the most valuable thing a warrior had, besides maybe a horse or a house.
Ikr
The more you know about mail, the less you know about female
Except the guy from medieval review His wife is a beauty!
Snoop Bubbles there are butt males and then there are riveting males... U know who's better.
original comment
both are weak againts thrusting ;D
hahahahaha she wears mail in my bed hahahahaha
Shad u should be on the history channel
History channel is not what it used to be they have been producing a lot of fiction recently to maintain ratings because the lack ofeducation in the average population means they just are not as concerned with the truth sometimes when they are looking for something entertaining. Yes there are many smart and educated people out there just not as large a percent as there were a generation or two past. Generally speaking. Just one example Roland the Bear(Died c878AD)and Ivar the Boneless(Died c773AD) in real life were not alive at the same time. No Shad deserves his own tv channel.
He believes in Ancient Aliens?
@@rembliekain7643 your absolutely spot on. & its not just the history channel its education in general thats poor, compared to when I was at school .
History used to be about our heritage our past & now its about WW2 or Africa .
People are leaving school & don't know about the history of their own country.
On utube I'm always having arguments with people that don't wanna know the truth, they think they know everything.
Most of the utube history sites are clueless or repeating stuff that's long outdated.
We're updating/correcting what we thought was right yeara ago but know it's not especially with the new technology we have today .
But sadly most people aint interested in learning anymore
Too bad the history channel only rolls out crap reality tv and alien speculation these days. I miss the old history channel that covered real history.
@@cearfarseer9725 me too! I used to love old history channel , I can't stand the alien & other nonsense they show nowadays.
It's basically the same thing everytime.
There's not any decent proper history channels atm
I mean ancient history, these days history seems to mean ww1 or ww2 .
I remember history channels About the romans, was on about 20 yrs ago ,& each episode was an hour and about a different thing , military, ,- senators & how government works, - Clothing, jewellery & fashion of Roman men & women.. each episode was great
Really in depth & explained ev thing about the topic . They did a similar one about Saxons too! ..
I havnt seen anything really good & informative like that in years.
There use to be really good things on most days of the week on Hist Ch.
Now it's very occaisionly.
"Shad gets angry about maille for 12 minutes straight."
I love all the videos either talking up or talking down certain historical weapons or armor, it helps me make my dnd experience a bit more realistic.
If it didn't work people wouldn't have worn it for thousands of years. Hell the Romans had mail, the lorica hamata was Roman mail.
And riveted mail would be _far_ too expensive to use unless it was actually effective.
If I remember right, the romans started using mail after coming into contact with the celts. Im pretty sure they invented it. The roman army was very good at taking other cultures technologies and adapting them to their purposes and mass reproducing them. The gladius is another good example of this.
@@michaelschaust1292 Bingo. The Celts did invent chain mail, as well as an early type of brigandine.
The first chainmail dates from the 3rd century BCE (Slovakia/Romania), and was in use in Europe until the 14th century.
It is good, hell some police wear it for stabbing protection. My buddy in Law enforcement wears a lightweight one under his uniform for that reason.
Is there someway to quickly despose of it incase you need to run after somebody? In jail it should be magnificent tho.
Not really. But its like Medieval knights; you train while wearing it so it feels like you're not. You Learn to run faster while wearing it because you get stronger.
And fuck up your back.
I wore ceramic body armor for years. It kills your back. Steel, like we're talking about, isn't much different.
Maybe a rookie, but a veteran wearing that stuff for years? He's going to let you go.
Perks of Mail armor; amazing weight distribution that actually helps to prevent back damage.
Not to mention depending on the officer; you're not usually standing, you're sitting in a cruiser.
Could you find out for me Arron where your buddy gets the armor he wears? I'm looking into wearing some on a daily basis when I go out in public and I'm wanting some high quality riveted mail.
Watching this while making a mail tunic.
Sadly only butted because I don’t have the stuff and experience to make riveted, yet, but I would love to make a riveted tunic someday.
Nice to read someone else is actually making this. Currently working on my riveted mail tunic ( roman mail, 50% solid/50% open rings, purchased premade rings). Still remember the first times putting it on, the feeling is just..majestic? And its soo light, just about 6 Kg. Could wear it all day.
Weaving was done several month ago, i did rivet half of the open rings in "chains" before weaving everything together... slows down the visible progress but is much easier than riveting every open ring in the finished piece. Now im left with about 40% rings to rivet. Working on it several times a week, still plenty of hours to go.
Just wanted to let you know that your not the only crazy one to actually do this, keep it up!
I am collecting poptabs for mail
@@h.p.baxter8150 where did you source your rings?
Quite nice! Chainmail is good - but ONLY when it is coupled with padded gambeson. Otherwise, sword/mace/pike would crush the bones and rip the flesh under the chainmail.
Thats why they used shields you know.
How about a leather jacket?
Even with flexible leather or a padded gambeson a strong impact could still break bones through chain but it was harder, the break was less likely to be a shatter and the chances of your skin staying intact were much better. This saved you from infection, a bigger killer than war at the time, and if you could get the bone set properly you'd be fine.
a point to note is that mail alone absorbs quite a bit of impact. not by direct resistance, but dispersing the energy. the ripples you see when mail is struck, is energy flowing away from the point of impact. Mail worn alone over robust cloth provides decent protection, hardly worthless with padding. But against heavy impact, yep that gambeson really helps! The combination of the two seems to be greater than the sum of the two layers.
@@jlokison You might want to read some current historical medical research. Find anything on historic wounds written by Dr Richard Swinney! (An ER Surgeon and medical historian)You'll find it very enlightening. The belief that open wounds were very likely to lead to death by infection is often over-stated. It ignores some important points: the effectiveness of medieval wound treatment, especially in post-Crusade era, such as use of wine for wound cleansing, and the very robust immunity of medieval adults. Not saying your point isn't valid, just that the open wound=death by infection we used to hear is being challenged. Something about study of medieval bodies with lots of healed old wounds, which we used to assume were a certain death.
I couldn´t agree more. These things bother me too. Your channel is full of good points. Thanks for that. I´m a subscriber.
+Jakub Hanák I'm honored mate, thanks heaps for the sub!
I am Shad I am actually planning to test a mail armour in the way that it shall be tested and make a video about it so people could see what bollocks we are fed with. It might take a while but I thank you so much for inspiration.
+Jakub Hanák I can't wait to see it. Make sure to let me know when it's done. Good luck with it mate!
I am Shad Definitely :-) If you ever considered visiting Central Europe or the Czech Republic or our neighbourhood countries like Germany or Poland which are more famous for their HEMA and fencing skills I´d gladly help you :-)
Agree agree
what's even worse is when the maille is simply hanging loose
it pisses me off so much. But when making cheap costume mail, it saves on rings significantly. I had a suit of it, in hindsight it was complete garbage. Most entertainingly, when I went and made another suit of butted mail, although with the pattern rotated 90 degrees.. It physically weighed like 30% more, but only felt like it weighed about the same, probably because properly angled mail actually kinda hugs/squeezes your body, and distributes the weight better, was really strange.
ive seen some videos where they wrap something in shitty mail, literally stand on top of their target and start chopping at it like they're chopping firewood. It doesnt really matter how good the armor is, if your standing on top of your enemy and hacking away at him like a stubborn log that armor will break. I saw a guy rambling about how good katanas were and he used two handed chops to wack away and some butted chainmail like that and literally broke the mail by using the katana like a freaking axe and busting the mail apart an then went on about how katanas were unstoppable killing tools unrivaled by even todays thermonuclear warheads in pure murder potential and blah blah blah...
@@arthas640 in that regard then a common Rock could be pounded through mail given enough blows and time. And speaking of time rocks have killed more people throughout all of history than any other weapons system in existence. Therefore the humble, almost ever present, rock is by far more murderous than any katana.
@@nicholask7347 its always the ones you dont suspect. Deer kill more people each year then wolves and coconuts kill more people then sharks
Also as you mentioned, mail wouldn't be just by itself over the person's skin, they'd have a gambeson underneath. Chainmail was used as the outer layer of a system of armor and taken as a whole (gambeson + chainmail), was very effective against slashing attacks and even piercing ones from blades that weren't pointy enough.
A bit brash at times, but everything you say is 110% true! Historical chainmail is so much different than how we think of it today! Would love to try and assemble a shirt of riveted mail one day when I'm in retirement haha.
I still prefer Email :/
Tsur Shaia lol, loves the puns
Tnx.
BTW I love your narrating in Tabletop Time.
Tsur Shaia Why thank you, I'm very glad you like ^_^
i prefer my plate over Email ;)
Tsur Shaia a butt-ad email is no good as well.
Very good video!
Mail is *still* being used against cutting, used for over 1000 years.
You. Do. Not. Cut. Through. (real) Mail.
End of story. Games, movies, etc. should get this right.
Add proper gambeson under a hauberk, and you're pretty nicely covered. Light, mobile, and excellent vs. cutting.
Thumbs up, Shad!
True
Tapio perälä Bullshit. There isn't a cut-proof maille.
True, a grinder could cut through it. Good luck getting a blade through riveted mail, though. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Yeah, at 4:58, the ax swinging down hits the front and rips the mail apart - clearly cheap butted mail.
Love how my comment was deleted because I disagree with OP.
The best part about his videos is when he goes off about something
I own a pair or chain mail gloves that I found buried deep in the back yard of a house I bought years back. These gloves were accompanied by a rather large pair of metal covered boots and a wooden knife handle. My son located these items with a detector for metal and we thought, for fun, that maybe these were medieval items belonging to a soldier or a crusader perhaps. We were told that indeed they were very old, but not likely of the medieval period. Nothing else was ever found and we have since framed our find with much pride as they are so interesting and a great conversation piece~ A Very good show this night Shad, I thank you!
Probably for a butcher or woodworker of some kind. Butchers are legally required here in the US to be given chainmaip gloves, and a lot of wood workers of many types chose yo wear them for safety reasons
I have a question, if a gambeson was good at protecting you against cuts, and then you have chain mail protecting you even more from cuts and a little in thrusts. Why were swords still a thing in the medieval ages? Why just don't use a mace and make sure that your hit counted instead of a cut and have the unpleasent surprise that the gambeson was really good or that he's using riveted chain mail?
Thanks in advance for anyone that answers me :)
The interesting thing is that swords became far less of a thing on the battlefield for that armour problem you point out. They were often carried as backup sidearms but not the main weapon. Polearms like the pike, billhook and poleaxe were used. The sword was still very big though, because it was the side arm and people carried it for personal defence in civilian environments, where armour wasn't worn.
Thank you for your answer Shad, that question has been bugging me a little since I started watching your videos about body armor. :)
Swords were also a large status symbol in medieval times. They were the equivalent to a medieval Ferrari, so if you had one you were either extremely rich a member of nobility or had a sword passed down to you. also seeing a lot of knights and high nobility were related back then they wouldn't want to kill each other on the battlefield, one so they didn't have to apologies to there family for killing there brother and also because they can ransom them back to there families
Not true. Swords weren't that expensive and peasants and farmers also had swords and even some used cheap armor. Fancy swords and highly valuable swords were not used when strolling around town.
+jengaaaaa That would depend on the era we talk about. circa 600's -> 800's a simple sword of steel was a status symbol because it was really, really hard to make a proper durable sword at that time and the best pattern welded swords were afforded such status that they forged legends (most swords of iron would snap in half if you tried to strike it). Peasants could at best afford a seax, a simple long-knife. circa 1200's -> 1400's a longsword was the status symbol of a moderately wealthy noble or a skilled swordsman as peasants could at best afford an arming sword, or as in germany where swords were banned from peasants, messers or large knives.
When a young nobleman could afford a pretty and well-made sword, oh he would stroll through the town swaggering and showing it off. This is where the term "swashbuckler" eventually came from; a young noble, looking for a chance to show off his skill with his sword and buckler which were hanging from his hip.
i'm inspired to make a mail shirt out of paperclips....
i've been thinking of doing one with key chain rings, you can get 99 for a dollar at Walmart.
EndorsedBryce that might actually work
Do it, use your new mail armor to cease control of the officer from the tyrannical grip of your King (the district manager) and take his title for your own!
I wanted to make a chain shirt using titanium rings... Problem is titanium is stupidly expensive and extraordinarily hard to work with... But think of the strength and lighthess..
@Bergsman100 We need photo evidence
I see that he has a great deal of passion for these kinds of subjects and their authenticity.
OMG your logic for the movement of the body when hit make so much sense. You really know your stuff! And great point about the demo guys using the crappy mail without the rivets!
and if I remember correctly there are medieval bones with traces of mail rings being smashed into them by powerful blows but rings were not broken or cut.
3:39 god damn it, he made me look
Lv.99 Mastermind omg
*Mind blown*
🤜🏼✉
Absolutely agree. Total common sense. I am a memeber of the SCA for over 20 years and we have these discussions with new people all the time. Love your channel.
I agree, chain mail when made right would work just as well as a metal chest piece, with the flexibility of leather. The only down side in my opinion is the weight, and the other material that you'd need to wear underneath the chain mail...
I made myself a shirt, 6 in 1 weave, butted, 60% 18ga steel, 40% 17ga aluminum. It came out to roughly 25 lbs.
I try to limit my likes on videos to one or two every couple of years, you convinced me.
I am truly honoured then ^_^
Shadiversity Yo is it true that chainmail is used in modern body armor
Sort of? Recently some German police started wearing chainmail 'cause they tend to get attacked more with axes and machetes and other tools that make good weapons instead of guns, or something like that. It's kind of weird, seeing riot cops wearing chainmail under a plate carrier and other tac gear, but also kinda cool. :D
+Vilhelm Puddintain If it works then... fine. Just like the fact that as time passes by more and more modern armors look like medieval ones.
JonatasAdoM Oh, of course. If it looks stupid but it works, it ain't stupid. That having been said, I don't think it looks stupid, it looks kinda cool. ^^
The weight of butted mail feels like a full body hug, so there's that 🤣
mail is still worn in many cut hazard areas in industry. from butchering Gloves to Tires on foundry vehicles.
IIRC also used for sharkproofing. can't get bit by a shark if you got chainmail on.
Now I wanna craft real chain mail with nano machines with super perfect rings, as you said. As you said piercing weapons is the weakness would smaller and/or more rings or even layered be better IRL.
As the guy who made the riveted maille used during the end segment getting stabbed, all I can say is.....
THANK YOU!
Long-time subscriber. Be well.
I'm late, but if you're still around, could you talk about how riveted mail is constructed? When he was describing it I kept thinking "that must be so tedious to make". That had to be the reason everyone's cosplaying in the weak stuff, right? Because it's so much easier to put together?
the best armor is not getting hit
The best armour is not going to war in the first place :D
Daniel Lichlyter I would've thought plot armor was the best. Too cliche? I know, but I couldn't resist.
Too many main characters die for my liking. I think the best armour is the tracked variety.
The best armour is plenty of distance
Dexterity based armor class?
This guy seems like a pretty personable dude. Like he would be really interesting to hang out and have a couple beers with.
THANK YOU ! You're absolutely right of course. One more thing to add. People often think medieval soldier wore armour against enemy sword and of course they did but foremost armour was used against arrows. And given the exception of specially designed arrowheads chainmail does a magnificient job to protect against arrows.
How about a pig in a gambeson in riveted mail attached to some rope hanging from a tree. Would that be a better approximation?
Give these to Skallagrim or Lindybeige?
+Adrian Ivashkov You could get a ballistic torso like those used by Cold Steel, put it in maille, and give it a similar foundation to human legs and see what happens when you whack it.
yeah...no, skallagrim wouldnt do that
Will mail stop a pommel or would it be ended rightly?
Plate is good, mail is good. Combine plate with mail underneath and you're pretty impenetrable but watch out for war hammers
Depending on the plate harness you have, mail underneath is totally unnecessary. Generally the only reason to use it is to cover areas that stiff plates can't get too no matter how well articulated they are
@@cheesychipmunk8382 yes thats where doublets came in, and they are amazing.
Don't forget to add the thick leather coverings!
Great info man... love how into it you got😊 it gets on my nerves constantly seeing people bag on things they think they know about but got no clue
I've never really delved into this sort of thing, but now i've become really interested due to your videos. this is the second one ive watched. You debunking the false allegations of the chainmail simulations really boiled my beans dude! Hot deal
Thank you sir, for this great video. You are speaking out of my heart.
Greetings from Germany
Thank you. I'm writing a dark fantasy novel & am researching weapons and armors. I will try and create my own lore, but I also want to have actual armor etc. that existed.
Are you done yet
Thank you for sharing this informative video confirming the effectiveness of riveted chainmail. Especially for encounters with many of the Asian martial systems involving slicing weapons like the karambit, kukri, wakazashi, hudiedao.
some basic problems I have. There was historic butted maile. But it was tempered. There was much more riveted than butted, But because riveted was stronger than non tempered butted. There was also a noticeable amount of riveted that was not tempered. and none tempered riveted is not near as strong as tempered riveted. and not that much stronger than tempered butted. Depending on the quality of each some riveted is much weaker than tempered butted.
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one of the biggest problem I have is even when gambeson is used testing maile. It is not proper constructed gambeson. It is not thick enough it does not have multiple layers of fabric, or enough padding.
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most of the maile tested fails not just because it is butted, but because it is to heavy. heavy maile pulls tight and acts almost as if it is braced. Lighter mail can bounce and move, causing much more chance of a glance and a ripple effect that helps distribute the force. Yes it is true that heavier and thicker metal is stronger, but the heavier the maile the thicker the gambeson should be to allow for more movement.
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Having worn all kinds of maile in all kinds of combat sports against wood, rattan, full weight metal weapons and solid lances in jousting. I have first hand knowledge that proper mail worn in the proper way is very effective. (not effective as plate, but that is a diffrent discussion)
Whole life loving medieval history. Just discovered the Shad! BADASS.
Hey Shad, i sm thinking of making my own chainmail armour, and was wondering if welding rings together would make it as strong as riveted mail?
It would
Figured I’d swing by and ask how the project went?
hey @Eazy8 I tried using an industrial welder, melted the rings straight away, puddle on the floor, then I tried soldering them, which if you know what that is its a similar form of welding used for electronics, and that worked you have to heat the rings before adding the solder or it forms into little metal globs that do hold it tight, but any impact can break them off.
chainmail was invented by the celts , and is still, to some minor degree used to this day, thats over two thousand years of reliability.
johnathon rouse apparently German police will sometimes still wear suits of chainmail underneath their Kevlar when responding to a a knife attack
Thank you so much for this video to put Chain Mail into perspective as to it weak points and the differences in mail and the historical context! very informative! thanks again for your time in making this video!
riveted is 2/3 lighter but costs 1/2 more
The best one I've seen is cold steel testing a warhammer on butted mail, it's great
My passion isn't really in chainmail or things like that. But I watched a couple of your videos because I love how passionatly an clearly you explain these things!
My dad has a chainmail glove. The feeling of it when you wear it is really cool.
I tried counting how many times you had to put your glasses back on, but lost count :D
Anyway, if mail wasn't effective, they wouldn't have used it ^^
Tell that to the voters! 🤣
I absolutely love watching this nerd get all riled up over drama within his interest area lol. He had me completely invested in it too. Interesting stuff.
I like that he used a proper simulation at the end of the video.
Having made and fought in butted mail, I concur; it's crap as armor.
it still works to degree pretty well, youre not goi g to cut through it, but easy to stab through.
So you were swung at by someone with a sword full speed wearing chain mail?
Oh, you can cut that shit pretty easy, butted mail not an armor, it's a prop.
After decades in the SCA, I've finally acquired some proper riveted mail. About half the weight of the butted hauberk I used to wear. Can't wait to fight in it (with a coat of plates over it).
Cabochon1360 Why the coat of plates...or the riveted mail? Just put it over a gambeson, an extra layer won't help you that much.
Hey Shad, what’s the deal with Damascus Steel? (Also, 1000th comment boom)
A few years ago I bought a set of chainmail. Due to not knowing any better, I bought a suit of butted mail. I loved it, but I was surprised at how heavy it was and how easily the links broke. I'm glad you made this video, I was guilty of a lot of the misconceptions you called out here. The only downside is that now I really want a set of riveted mail... ;-)
Exactly as I thought - these tests are using terrible mail and they are flagrantly disregarding the importance of energy transfer between weapon and target. Thanks for the video!
What about Mithril mail, i.e. Elven Titanium...?
Builder Mithril mail gives +12% Health plus +1% Health after every victorious battle.
That spear would have skewered a wild boar!
One of the cool things about fantasy is that you can bend things with a cool what if senario. What if you could have chains that were literally inpenetrable and were super light and flexible? Or like Brandon Sanderson finding a way to have realistic massive swords. Love the blend of fantasy and martial weapon prowess and theory.
I have an odd question. Was the maille worn as is or was it first heat treated and hardened?
Once the wire was coiled into a spring and then cut into the individual rings, they were flattened with a hammer, held over a candle or fire and then dropped in water which hardened it. This all happened before the rings were linked together.
another weird question
have you heard of Washer-mail?
It is a thing another you-tuber i watch came up with, it's basically 2 washers that are sandwiched over a fabric (heavy duty canvas stitched to soft leather is what he used) base then pop riveted together. He had made armor kind of like Samurai Haidatai upper leg armor. He makes mostly DIY apocalyptic Armor and Weapons.
"Mail is good stuff because people don't like to die, and it was used a lot in history by people trying to not die." Pretty much, yeah. He says it in another video: movies and games give us such a bad image of armor to the point of it being basically cosmetic. One strike and you're dead, even if it's not a vital organ...unless you have a monologue to give. Look at the entire LotR series! Armor was pointless because everyone slashed, stabbed, bashed, or shot right through it, from chainmail to full plate. Your only hope in books and games was to block their attack with your weapon, which was magic in that it attracted all arrows to it when you go into a defensive stance, or you were able to see the arrows and swat them out of the air.
I love these videos. They bring realism back, which helps people like me in figuring out how soldiers and adventurers would be equipped in stories/worlds that we create.
Finaly a decent and accurate video about chain mail. Can you do a part two to this video about some of the less commonly used types of chain mail, such as 6 in 1, 8 in two mobius ring, and types that used differing sizes of rings, etc etc. please that would be awesome. I'd love to learn what you can tell us about other forms or patterns of chain mail that were used (perhaps less often, or not as commonly) aside from the standard 4 in 1 we know of. Perhaps detailing what these other types were used for could be beneficial as well. Such as Mobius ring armor was it just to add decoration to lighter chain armor used in ceremony or was it used to protect from spears, arrows, and stabby swords like the eppe as many not likely to know what they are talking about renaissance fair people like to say it was for? thanks again for this video i hope you do plan to make a part two.
The re-discovery of inexpensive drawn wire led to a proliferation of less expensive mail, much of which was made partly of butted rings. But even then half to two thirds of all mail rings in any work of mail, depending on pattern, were neither butted nor riveted, but rather were solid. This had been the rule since the Lorica Hamata, due to the fact that punching solid rings out of iron or steel plate (usually steel since puddling is easier in small batches) is much less time consuming than forming them on a mandrel. Solid rings, all other things being equal, are always stronger than either butted or riveted rings. When assembling mail one butted ring can connect to the center of as many solid rings as the selected pattern required.
While riveted rings are stronger than butted rings, ignoring the fact that “le stoc” was used far less often the edge of the sword, mace, halberd, or spear. The heat treatment of the completed work was far more important in determining the strength of the completed armor than whether or not the connecting rings were of butted or riveted construction.
dang I was actually unaware these bs vids exist, thank you for da education
its nice to know that some other people notice that in almost every weapons test the weapon comepletely destroys the target
I have been "terribly mistreating" myself by not having watched this video sooner. Great stuff!
Haha, he said context in a video about HEMA. Matt Easton didn't copyright that yet? :p
I like reading on islamic history of the crusades and the heavy units of both muslim and crusaders were considered nearly unstoppable due to their mail and lamellar armor
Noah Sabouni Yeah the crusades were like the golden age of mail.
Essentially to kill a knight or a mameluke/ghulam, you had to hit him at full speed with a lance on horseback or hit him enough times to.crack a bone
Respect for this man's passion.
Absalutely right. I spent a year or so with the local SCA group (which is largely a group dedicated to gathering in a field and beating the crap out of each other with sticks while wearing armor). During this time I was able to wear mail with rounded rings, flat rings, both with butted, riveted, and soldered rings, and all made of various grades of steel from galvanized fencing wire to high end carbon type stainless. When the mail is made and fitted correctly, and worn with the appropriate gambison padding, there is simply nothing to compare it to. There is always a list of trade offs with armor of any sort but mail over gambison offers the best balance of protection, versatility, weight, comfort, etc, etc.
Well, these are some accurate points, but I have some issues with your general condemnation of butted mail.
Of course it isn't historical accurate. Of course it is heavier than riveted. Of course, using cheap and weak materials will result in weak armour. And combining all of that results in a cheap TV prop.
However, chainmail with thick enough rings, proper steel and 4-in-1 structure is still a tough obstacle.
I own a niece mail shirt, springsteel, 4-in-1, quite thick rings and there is no chance in hell of ripping it apart like cloth. I actually tested it just now with my whole weight. It didn't rip. Maybe if some rings were already compromised I could do some damage, but not easily.
Tl;dr: Saying that all butted mail is total crap is as much as a misrepresentation as the one you mentioned in your video.
I even got stabbed once with a knife (we were both drunk and I urged him to 😁) and it performed admirable.
Vys Erion Your best armor in that case is installing a lock on the knife drawer
How much quality spring steel (ie of a quality good enough to reliably forge many many small chain links from) d'you think was available 500-2000 years ago? & how many armourers/smiths could effectively use it to that purpose, even if they were known as such? We're not talking leaf springs for wagons/carriages or even xbows or basic firearms here; it's far more delicate work requiring much higher quality material & the knowledge & skill to manufacture many many tiny parts consistently, then assemble them..
I think you need to rewatch the video he does not totally condem Butted mail. He says that when compared to Riveted mail butted mail is not as good. He also explains why. However he does not totally condemn butted mail. He says it is "Realy weak" compared to Rivited mail. Also the tearing comment he says that "if you found a weak part on the edge" it could tear from that point and keep tearing. There is one point where he does say "of course its crap" referring to butted mail being improperly tested by being braced against a hard solid object
Dumb question but now a days we can weld butted mail together... Would that still not be as good or would it be better than rivet?
If it's welded it's not butted mail anymore. It's welded mail. Welded or soldered or fused mail is about as good if not better than riveted mail.
for soldered mail, could I use the same solder from circuit board solder?
>could I use the same solder from circuit board solder
Eeh, you could, it wouldn't be that strong though. You'd be much better off with a silver solder (expensive) or if you're fine going higher temps, brazing. But it'll be time consuming any of the 3 ways.
Something I would recommend no matter what you're doing, make half the suit solid rings. Just buy washers, they're a bit more expensive than making rings yourself, but given that only half of the suit needs to worry about solder joints breaking... it makes the thing a hell of a lot stronger.
It is hard to solder to metal, it is too conductive. Also it is SOOO easy to break solder.
Nowadays you can 3d print with metal, so you could make complete rings xD
>It is hard to solder to metal, it is too conductive
Get a more powerful soldering iron. Like really, are you trying to use a 100w radioshack one?
>Also it is SOOO easy to break solder.
Depends on the type of solder and how well it's joined. I get the nagging feeling you have some pretty crappy solder joints if you're having "conductivity" problems. Also dependign on the kind of wire you're using you likely need to acid treat the metal before solder will bind to it. If you use the black anodized rebar tie wire that a lot of people use, solder doesn't stick to that for shit. (but its great for making riveted mail) Also there are dozens of ways you could reinforce the solder joint.
>Nowadays you can 3d print with metal
Can you? Far as I can tell that right is mostly restricted to companies that can afford the hardware (it ain't your $500 desktop 3d printer), and none of them are going to let you use their equipment to make a suit of chainmail.
On top of that, 3d printed metal isn't very strong. 3d printing is good for complex geometry, but the majority of processes I've seen generate parts with properties slightly above stamped/sintered powdered metal. IE vastly below what could be produced by machining or forging. It's primarily used for components that need to be metal, but aren't likely to be under a lot of physical stress (usually more for thermal stress as they can build features into the part that could never be machined)
>so you could make complete rings xD
Probably not. You might manage a flat sheet of rings interlocked, but you'd still have to manually stitch them together with more rings (that'd need to be butted/welded/soldered/riveted) to make a functional shirt. Also you'd have to add expansions and contractions where needed for the thing to fit properly.
Ah yes, the good ole days before the gambeson drip.
I was actually pretty surprised when I saw somebody test proper mail armor.
I think it is a tad off to say that riveted maille is lighter and stronger than butted maille. The lightest maille uses smaller rings in a tighter weave and will even provide much better protection against puncture damage such as arrows. At a certain size it is nearly impossible to rivet a ring without modern tools, so those weaves will almost always be butted. The reason that riveted is probably seen as superior is due to the time period it was made. When blacksmiths started with iron ore and needed to make each ring it would be very impractical to make tiny rings. Constructing a vest out of smaller rings would take far more rings and time to assemble, and impurities in the metal would be more of a danger. (Hand forged metal also tends to have more carbon so making thinner wire that could still be bent may be harder too) Today we can go out and buy great wire while back then just making some would be a huge chore. This would explain why using larger thicker rings would be most common, and why the riveted design would be preferable as larger rings are more vulnerable to opening under the force of an arrow or spear. I imagine a blacksmith would punch the rings out of hammered metal sheets to speed up production, so when you think about how chainmaille rings were made differently it is easier to see why they might choose to rivet them for extra strength.
In addition you are absolutely right that no maille is designed to guard a solid object like wood since humans are more akin to a gummy bear than wood and flesh flexes to absorb much of the force behind a sword slice. In addition to that I think it is worth noting that not all maille is designed to protect, and not all craftsmen use good metal or good practices to make effective weaves of maille. The picture where someone had cut through maille into wood shows pretty clearly that the rings had a bad circumference to gauge ratio and good weaves of maille should be woven tight with just enough room to allow the weave to bend. With four-in-one weaves you should not be able to easily see through the maille or else it means the wire gauge is too thin, or that the rings have too large a circumference. Also you need to know the metal/alloy they used. I have used identical sized rings made of the same metal, but one alloy could never be torn by hand while the other I could bend or pierce with my little finger. If someone uses cheap wire from a craft store you could easily pierce it with a butter knife and real maille made for armor should never be possible to rip apart by hand even if it is butted.
Maille is far more complicated than it first seems and there are certainly a ton of misconceptions about it. I am not a scholar of history, but I hear that it was actually very rare to have soldiers wear maille suits in history because it was so very hard to produce that only nobles and elite troops would be seen wearing some. It would make sense if true though, because it can take me months to make a vest out of pre-made rings and from my limited time working with a forge the thought of making a vest from scratch is terrifying and a blacksmith could probably make a hundred swords in the same amount of time. Games and fantasy movies spoil us with images of armies where even the weakest troops wear full plate and chain vests. I assume if the soldiers of past wars could see those films it would be about as shocking to them as it would be for us to see a movie portraying everyone in our time period driving a Lamborghini to work.
Actually, the smaller the rings, the more you need for a piece. The more links the shirt has, the HEAVIER it gets! I can say this from experience; I made a shirt out of 16 gauge wire, with an inside diameter of 1/4 inch. It was about 20-30% heavier than the one I made of 3/8 inch ID rings of the same gauge
This is also why when they learned the techniques neccessary to make plate mail they stopped making chain. The platemail provided better protection was actually lighter and took a lot less time for an armor smith to make or customize to the wearer.
Mail isn't however good against bludgeoning weapons
Mace = bane of armour
Gambeson. A big one. With the mail. If you look at depictions of knights and fighter-types from back in the day often they look puffy. They had a lot of padding.
Possibly, it could help in many situations by spreading the impact force over a larger area. You'd have a better chance with mail than without, not greatly but some. Gambeson would multiply this effect.
or apears, arrows.
A lot of kinds of armour aren’t good against bludgeoning weapons (primarily warhammers), so it isn’t exactly fair to hold that against mail.
I love watching your older videos now and again 😁👍
Also…if you were to put butted mail through a steel hardening process, after it’s finished being put together, would the butted mail hold up better?
Ha! love your enthusiasm! Pissed and explaining! Good stuff (enjoyed some of your other vids as well)
"Male is good stuff" XD
love your channel keep it coming
+Timothy Chaffee Thanks heaps, I'm honored you like and it will indeed keep coming!
Five years later and Shad has me researching and pricing riveted chainmail shirts. Not bad Shad, not bad.
It's been a while since I've watched some of your older stuff. You were a lot more rough around the edges and I like it.
Well, traditional Japanese "chainmail" was known to be butted. It is generally accepted that they did not start using riveted mail over there until, they saw European versions and copied those. Perhaps they could have had some earlier exposure to the style from Chinese merchants, but the point remains the same.
Of course, the caveat is that Japanese mail was made for a rather different purpose, as it was largely worn to support other armor, or in the later post-feudal period by police forces and the like. It was not meant to provide the same kind of protections as European mail, largely because of the deficit of acute piercing weapons used in Japan.
This all being said, I do not claim any form of expertise in this, I just wanted to make a point that you did not seem to address (especially as you brought up the topic of a katana point being unable to pierce "properly" made chainmail). Butted chainmail was used historically, but perhaps in a different context to the European made, riveted examples.
+enrique maestas
The rings were also built like a key-ring, not like "conventional" butted mail/
+Sagrotan Yes, but Japanese weapons (at least to my eyes) seem to have rather broad points. Katana, Yari, Naginata. I'm sure there are exceptions, as with anything, but from Japan ive seen no bodkin like points for piercing armor, nor any melee weapons sporting long, thin piercing blades
Actually, I just did some light research (wiki) and I did find that some types of Yari spear (straight blade) did have very acute piercing points, as did some arrowhead types.
My point still stands I believe. Japanese armors seemed focused on giving the combatant excellent movement first, and protection second (the opposite model followed by later European armor). This meant that (generally) Japanese armor had exploitable gaps that one might be able to get a decent slash in. Thus the prevalence of cutting oriented weapons. This is not to say that Japanese weapons could not pierce, just that they were not optimized for that purpose as later European swords and pole arms were.
But all this being said, I really am no expert in these things, I just enjoy thinking about them :p
"deficit of acute piercing weapons used in Japan."
Number 1 weapon: bow, piercing weapon. Dominant weapon in japan.
Number 2 spear: piercing weapon, next most dominant weapon in japan.
Number 3 gun: not exactly piercing, but no chain mail helps there. third most dominant, but quickly became top dog.
Katana is a backup weapon, used in civilian samurai life.
Biggest problem: BODKIN ARROWS ARE NOT PIERCING ARROWS. They have only ever been found made of IRON. Not hardened steel as the modern tests pretend were a thing. They were flight arrows only, looking for lucky shots. WAR arrows were BROADHEAD and HARDENED STEEL.
Japanese armour in the sengoku period emphasised a strong top of helmet and chestplate to reduce gunshot wounds. Japanese armour, like western counterparts, was already completely arrow proof. thus, why not use a broadhead to do as much damage to the less armoured parts, and mainly horses, as possible?
Sankaku yari is a thin triangular cross section spearhead with a very sharp tip.
Seen as all of japan, even the peasants, used plate armour, what is the point in pointy tips, exactly? In the age of plate armour, nobody beat it with pierce weapons. The Japanese used one weapon to beat armour, Kanabō. Big heavy blunt weapon.
Mail > Femail
Had some friends do some maille experiments some time ago. Dressed a pig carcass in gambeson and maille on a sprung stand. Both butted and rivetted withstood what was dealt out. Against arrows, not to much for the reasons you stated. Mauls and maces were amusing. While they didn't damage the maille they made a good job of tenderising the flesh beneath. But then those weapons aren't about piercing.
Zombie apocalypse - Run down to your local stately home, which armour do you grab?