The Last of Us Part 2 Joel's Death EXPLAINED - Neil Druckmann Expresses Regret For Killing Joel
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- The Last of Us Part 2 Joel's Death EXPLAINED - Neil Druckmann Expresses Regret For Killing Joel • The Last of Us Part 2 ...
00:00 The Decision to Kill Joel EXPLAINED
2:00 The Last Of Us Part 2 Joel's Death Behind the Scene
7:30 Neil Druckmann Reviews Joel's Death Scene
10:00 Last of Us Part 2 Leak and Death Threats
12:20 Neil Druckmann on his Regret for Killing Joel
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All from the new Grounded 2 Documentary
00:00 The Decision to Kill Joel EXPLAINED
2:00 The Last Of Us Part 2 Joel's Death Behind the Scene
7:30 Neil Druckmann Reviews Joel's Death Scene
10:00 Last of Us Part 2 Leak and Death Threats
12:20 Neil Druckmann on his Regret for Killing Joel
He didn't express regret for killing Joel, quiet the opposite of what you said.
He regrets the backlash if anything🤣🤣🤣
Don’t ever threaten this beautiful woman she’s amazing person
Poor Laura 😢😢😢 she doesnt deserve this
You want us to care about Abby and her friends? Then don't start the game by making us watch them kill the guy we grew to love in part 1. Simple.
Neil surrounded himself with an echo chamber. He clearly needed a few more people to say no to him.
This is something often said before, but the fact that Joel died wasn't what got people mad, it was _how_ he died that was controversial. Had he died closer to the mid point of the game, or even if it was at the end, that would allow Druckmann and the writers more time to build up to that moment, and give the death more impact at the appropriate time. That's not to mention Joel and Tommy acting out of character for the world that they're in, seemingly being way too open and friendly with armed strangers. Again, this is something that could've been addressed with more time in Jackson, or at least dialogue addressing why they might not be suspicious of Abby's group.
Another key point to mention is that the editing feels off. Playing as Ellie for around 12ish hours, only to do the same as Abby for around 12 hours is going to be jarring. Had the editing given us both their perspectives as the story goes would've been better for both the player and the game, albeit it's own challenge. As it is now, people rightfully dropped the game after learning they would play as Abby for all that time, a person who, in Druckmann's own words, is a person you'll want to hate.
As for the backlash, it's obvious that death threats, slurs, and cussing people you don't know out is clearly awful, make no mistake. But what's shocking as they don't seem to have expected it at the level it was at. Joel getting brained by a golf club after getting kneecapped by a shotgun as his adoptive daughter looks on in horror was *never* going to be taken well, and Abby, who throws off gender norms by being a muscular woman, being the one to do it was also going to drag in the basement goblins of the internet to shit all over the studio, even if it was perfectly executed. But TLOU2 came out in 2020, a year where I don't have explain why people would've been on shorter fuses. Combine that with how loved Joel and Ellie were as gaming icons, and you get a shit tsunami dumped out by everyone of your fans. Again, that's not a justification for death threats or anti-Semitism or any other phobia thrown at anybody, but is it explains how we got here.
On small note, Troy Baker loving the game does not mean the game is automatically good or bad, but you can criticize his own media literacy for it.
TL;DR: Druckmann could use an editor, Troy Baker some better games, and Ashley Johnson and Laura Bailey all the best.
Edit: Formatting
If people aren't willing to listen because it's too difficult to understand, it's not our fault.
I promise you, there is no arguing that the way Joel was killed was extremely disrespectful and the fact that he trusts strangers like that is disgusting writing.
I want you to know that I read your comment earlier and had a long response written in agreement with everything you said but the app froze on me and I lost it lol. That being said, I agree with everything you say here. As for Troy Baker loving the game, yeah, it’s hard for me to take his review of the game seriously when he was so closely involved in the making of it. Dude probably said all those nice things to keep the Naughty Dog checks coming lol
I completely agree. I hate that people threatening killing Neil and others sometimes overshadow all of us with actual legitimate criticism
Everything you said is 100% correct.
I can understand being angry because of Joel's death but that is NO EXCUSE for being a douche to the development team at Naughty Dog. They knew killing Joel off was going to be a painful experience for not only themselves but their fanbase as well. As I said in the full video there are NO saints in this whole story. Joel, Tommy, Jessie and even Ellie have their dark and gray moments. I applaud the developer team for their story telling abilities. Writing fiction is NOT an easy feat especially when viewed from the outside in.
I think it was the way Joel died that people didn’t like
I totally understand why it had to go this route. But It was super risky cause if there was someone out there that’s so fucking crazy, Enough about a video game character…I’m glad Laura didn’t get hurt. She didn’t deserve this at all
Just reading the messages sent to the development team is absolutely heart breaking, just seeing how evil people can be over several leaks. I can't imagine the amount of hate pushed down on them. This is exactly why I hate social media and don't play online video games.
Neil does not admit that the worst problem of part 2 is the consistency of his story telling, you just can’t get yourself convinced of the characters’ motivations in part 2, their behavior in the story is so unbelievably weird. Of course Joel can be killed, but tells me how can an elite survivor like Joel just blindly trust a group of well armed soldiers and walk into their camp? Tell me if you have played part 1, where does that blind trust come from?
Certainly could have done Joel death better. The reason his guard is so down is that he spent last few years living in Jackson. So he’s not the paranoid and Ruthless guy he was.
I don’t quite agree, Joel lived in Jackson for years, that’s right, but as we saw in part 2, he still has to run some perimeter regularly, sometimes with Ellie sometimes with Tommy, also with Jessie. He might not be as that paranoid as he was in part 1, but he shouldn’t have lost that instinct. Or, if Neil would want us to be convinced that Joel is weakened and soft, please tell some story before Joel’s death.
From a narrative perspective, there was not any more to tell from Joel's life, he was 60 years old and have experienced almost all there is to life, especially if you factor in the post apocalyptic world.
The problem I have with Troy Baker daring people to tell a better version of the story is that he acts as if it can’t be done lol. Hell, I’ve heard at least 2 versions of the game’s story that would work very well, one of them came from that youtuber Luke Stephens.
What Troy doesn’t get is that the main problem with Joel’s death is the fact that he dropped his guard so easily when it was well-established in part 1 that he would never do that, and it’s ironic he doesn’t get that since he should know the character best from actually playing him.
Case in point: *he killed everyone in the hospital once Marlene betrayed his trust by neglecting to tell him that Ellie would have to die in order for them to make a cure.* So for Joel to trust Abby so easily and walk into an ambush, not only does it not make sense for the character, it’s also a very arbitrary inciting incident for the story.
My elevator pitch for a different version would be to introduce Abby as someone who arrives in Jackson as someone who “needs help.” She gets taken in for a few days as you play as Joel for a few chapters; he and Abby, along with a large group, go scavenging together and Ellie even becomes friendly with her but the player plays through sections where Abby’s behavior around Joel doesn’t always seem right (these parts would probably be cutscenes), then there’s a scene where Tommy catches her talking to a stranger outside of the town’s fences in the middle of the night or whatever, he becomes suspicious of Abby and this kinda moves her plans up faster than expected.
Abby gathers her people and they set the trap for Joel, and you come to find out that all this time she was really infiltrating the Jackson community to get close to Joel, find out his routine, how he thinks, etc. When Ellie stumbles upon Abby beating Joel, it becomes even more of a gut punch because they both trusted Abby and the player then controls Ellie for the rest of the game, trying to find Abby and avenge Joel.
The game can then follow Ellie’s entire storyline as it currently plays out but once you finish it, you unlock a secret second campaign which turns out to be Abby’s side of the story and through her campaign, you find out more details as to why she wanted to kill Joel and though you hated Abby while playing as Ellie, playing Abby’s story forces you to empathize with her as ND had intended.
I know my idea isn’t perfect but for Troy Baker to assume that Part 2’s story can’t be rewritten or structured better is comical😂
People took him up on that dare too. But yeah the more you think about it and analyze the story, the more it unravels.
How would any of this work from a gameplay perspective? This was also an early concept for the game, but they clearly cut it for a reason. And also, Joel trusting Abby makes perfect sense. He had just saved her life, and they were trapped in a snow storm. He really had no other reason not to trust her
I couldn't agree more.
@@homeb0ys7515 Have you played DMCV? You get the choice in certain missions to choose which character you want to play as their loadout, do a similar thing here.
@@65firered That's not what I'm talking about. You would have to make this section longer than isnecessary and also have gameplay throughout it. What would it even be about?
Only thing wrong with the way they killed Joel is that we waited 7 years to play this game and we hardly got to spend any time with him. But then again, I think it worked for the story. Because I have NEVER in life been crying wanting to kill imaginary video game characters so badly.
and in the end you dont kill it
I love last of us but some of so called fans threatening people over a video game is insane
Threatening someone over land is even worse. Free Palestine
Nah..they did it to cause shock drama..and they did! But it didn't work out the way they thought it would..I for instance stopped playing rt at that moment and havnt touched since..worst decision in video game history!
It's bad but... There's so much worse.
Last of us series should just been a series of anthologies.
In retrospect, yeah - portray different elements of humanity with diverse set of characters
It's unfortunate that there's fans so immature to make threats to people who were just voice actors. I like Abby as a character and the girl that played her must of have done a good job to bring her to life to make her believable for me, i look forward to more of Abby/Lev/Dina/Ellie/Tommy if there's a TLOU3.
Personally not a fan of Abby’s character but to threaten a actress is straight up psychotic
I love Abby but she like she killed Joel but Joel killed her dad I feel sad for Ellie n Abby love both of em
I can’t stand Abby and I don’t like a lot about the game, but threatening someone is just evil.
I've noted a lot of the fans of this games think we're upset with the WHAT and the WHY but it's really the HOW that most people have problem with.
The reaction from ellie at 7:13 that should've been the reaction in the actual game it was so gut wrenching and more disturbing and sad
I like How Neil Takes Troy’s opinion on things so seriously. Whatever you feel about this game that’s a Great Writer/Actor Relationship.
I love Troy as an actor and he is phenomenal as Joel, but the mans ego needs a check now and again. The fact that he flat out refuses to even consider the idea that things could have been done better is pretty arrogant...
Also...poor fucking Laura man 😢
Its sad that he left out an important fact. The person that leaked the gameplay was a fomer employee, then tanked factions pt2. Druckman is a 🧩 of 💩
I feel like people forget that Joel sorta settled and adapted to his life in Jackson. In the quarantine zone life was pretty ass and run by corruption, so he adapted to become a heartless survivor who could break the rules if need be. Joel at the start of the first game is not the same as he is during most of the game, not quite the same person as the end of the game/flashbacks of part II. He adapts slowly to his surroundings, so he’s way more friendly and trusting with a group of strangers compared to if he still lived in the QZ
That’s a solid point but I don’t think that 4 years of being soft and being part of a welcome community is enough to undo 20 years of harsh survival.
@@anessamerEhh…I can believe it happening when the one person you sacrificed so much for and grew to love unconditionally like your own, decides to not speak to you for the better part of two years even if you guys see each other every day. But then again, I stopped playing shortly after Joel was killed so I really don’t know.
@@anessamerhe also traded for coffee with some random who passed by as he said in one of the last scenes of the game
@@sneakykamon I played and beat the game. It was so depressing and bleak.
@@anessamer I can only imagine. It already felt bleak and depression the small chunk that I played. Even when I entertain the idea of finishing it, I just can't bring myself to do it. Then again, another factor that plays into that for me is the fact that after I beat the first one on PS3, I felt like the story was so perfect that I honestly didn't want a sequel. And to this day, TLOU1 is the only game to make me feel that way.
I think you should do that part again. Because Joel does not deserve to die Joe's my favorite character.
I think what made people more pissed off is that they were expecting Joel's death for years after finishing the first game but they got relieved after they saw him in the launch trailer coming and helping Ellie on her journey but then it was all fake everyone would be pissed after getting scamed and they called it Advertisement what makes me laugh that they are getting emotional over some kids threats that can't leave their house without their parents permission i didn't like the game and never played it but i know why fans were pissed about it they should blame themselves for it.
2:27 aot fan spotted
Love the story and everything else about the game, replayed several times and it gets better every time.
What I don't like is not that Joel got killed, it is the whole revenge story just not to go through with it..
But the hate they got was not okay..
I just keep remembering how Abby would have gotten eat my zombies had Joel not saved her life.... nice save joel...
Plot armor
A lot of story teller experts in the comments 😂😅
Then You
Story teller comments have written a better story than this divisive game
That's why the devs are so stupid
Then how did the Last of us HBO show become the biggest tv series equal to Game of Thrones?
Although I personally liked this game, I deeply understand why people HATED this game. But the threats on these people are fucking psychotic. These people need to be locked up or examined
Niel needs to launch new Tlou game. ASAP. After Stellar Blade and Helldivers 2 scandals it's going to be the third one. Sony deserve more ppl like Niel.
Joel’s death is still a big stain in my heart for TLOU franchise. Naughty Dog could have allowed us more time with Joel to see him enjoy more life and maybe kill him off much later. In certain stories, the journey of the character is destined and inevitable. This was not one of them. From my perspective, (besides the Salt Lake City hospital), Joel’s kills were in self defense. TLOU2 wanted to play the moral police and judge Joel when Abby killed lots of people too with the WLF. Neil Druckmann f’d up on TLOU2 by killing Joel, especially so soon after the first game.
People say the worst part of the game is Joel's death, but for me it's the game forcing the moral that the right thing to do is to spare Abby after everything. And guys-don't blame folks with no creative input on the game. Lay the blame where it squarely belongs, on the twat who kept pushing an angle no one wanted. Lay the blame on Druckmann, who despite this video's title did NOT regret killing Joel, just not becoming the videogame bigshot he assumed he would.
Someone can write a complete dissertation on everything wrong with this... And the only takeaway people would have is "You don't like it because Joel died." Because no matter how much thought you put into explaining exactly what's wrong with the writing, the most surface-level braindead response is the most common one.
Cast not thy pearls before swine.
True
💯💯💯💯💯💯
Toxic positivity is all the rage.
The only problem i had with joel dying is being forced to play with Abby. However, when you get deeper in the game, she is pretty justified in killing joel.
i call him 'dickmann.' maybe I need to watch more documentaries but it felt to me that Neil just wrote the story a didn't give a dinkledoink about fans feelings. I'm not particularly a fan and even I was pissed-off he killed off joel. but those ladies oh boy do i get goosebumps in the no-no areas LOL. "adult' ellie is an absolute babe and so is dina. abby im impressed by her mega, man builder bod. go girl masher Abigail!!
guys i really like the game and i feel like people need to be more understanding of the story itself.
Even after these years yeh Neil screwed up. The death should have had build up to the mid or end of the game not the beginning. Joel was out of character too. Makes absolutely no sense why he trusted strangers when he displayed self awareness & caution in part 1 even before the apocalypse. Like when he told Tommy not to help the people on the road & continue driving during the 1st level.
No justification for it Joel dying isn't a problem it's the insanely crap narrative then went along with it
Joe should see that coming.
😢😢😢😢😢
😭😭😭😭😭😭
I think Josh never died. That's very sad how they beat them with a pipe. I think Joshua stayed alive in number 2. Because that was just wrong, Abbey should gave 2 choices to forgive him.Will he dead or to kill him?And I think she should have forgave him like ellie forgave abby Because that was just wrong, Abbey should gave 2 choices to forgive him. Will he dead or to kill him? And I think she should have forgave him like Ellie forgave Abby.
I think Joel should be alive.
One thing I want to say is, what a hypocrite Troy Baker is.
It was perfect. I don't understand people that got mad. It is a tragedy, there is no happy end.
Abby biting the curb 4K
People expected it to be a disney movie where there are happy endings and honourable deaths,
No, this game told us about the reality of the world.
I have no single bad take on it.
Believe you whatever, but dont deny this is the most controversial game of all time, they got you haters are crybabies exactly where they wanted you.
You know, there's banter and then there's petty anger. This is the latter. I have no problem if you like this game for being "realistic" or edgy or controversial, but whining that people don't like it and coming up with obviously ridiculous reasons, comes off as petty. And possibly shows a lack of nuance or ability to be nuanced, certainly lack of understanding.
Okay first of all, no one expected TLOUP2 to be a “Disney movie with happy endings and honorable deaths” especially not 7 years after playing Part 1. Idk what put that idea in your head.
And second, there are other games out there with morally-gray protagonists that get killed off in the same game people spend so much time getting to know them in, that doesn’t cause as much controversy as TLOUP2 did because *gasp* the storytelling was simply better. One example that immediately comes to mind is Red Dead Redemption.
Who tf thought that this was gonna be like a Disney movie?!?!? 😂 that’s the most asinine thing I’ve ever read
@@Toto._.576 I get your point but maybe focus on the details.
@@65firered tlou2 devs can kiss my farts :D
I don't have any complaints about Joel's death, it's the lead up to it; especially Joel and Tommy instantly helping Abby and the pacing of the game that I have issues with.
if joel didnt kill the doctor, this wont happen
Doctor had a scalpel pointed at a pissed off papa bear Joel what did the doctor expect
"Hey dude, I killed like an entire platoon to save this girl's life, mind putting down the scalpel?"
@@jacobgonzalez2002 He saw a vision of the future and killed himself out of disappointment.
If Joel let the doctor killed Ellie,Abby won't turn into a beefcake...
😂😂
If Joel simply respected Ellie's desire this wouldn't have happened
The leak really killed what could have been a HUGE moment in gaming. Giving your average pleb the idea of Joel dying to a girl with a golf club without having the writing setting it up to justify it/ deliver it in the way intended, made it so a bunch of, let’s face it, creatively bankrupt cretins used their rusty ass imaginations to contextualise his death, and obviously every thing they came up with was terrible - so they ruined the moment for themselves by setting expectations, and then because they’re stubborn and dumb, they ran with their first impressions and didn’t let the story telling guide them.
Maybe just maybe if you would allow the player to kill Abby then the fans wouldn't have been as upset.
Wouldn't help the writing but at least it would be a fun diversion.
@@65firered no it doesn't help much but it's better than "letting it go" fuck that shit.
@@RubyKing1997 There are several different routes one could take to reach a similar conclusion. Such as a threat, exile, or a trial. It doesn't have to end with Abby's death but then again Abby didn't have to kill a man in front of his family and act like she didn't do just that.
@@65firered I agree
Yes it should been a choice appears in the screen saying (let abby go) ( kill abby)
😡😡😡
Joel’s death was meant to be shocking and unexpected, and totally the result of letting down his guard. That is how life ends in that world. Fiction is driven by conflict and emotion, and that storytelling was by far the apex of both. The messages and threats were so awful, it reinforces my theory that we need a proper plague to rip through humanity, because the thought of walking among people like that make me sick to my soul.
The messages people sent were just honestly so evil. Omg if they don’t like the game then don’t buy it and don’t worry about it. It’s not that hard at all 😂 this goes to show how badly humanity is right now omg
Really? Drukman just like to be hated
Clearly, he was a student of Rian Johnson.
Problem is, it was done with malice and poor storytelling. It felt contrived, it felt motivated not by creating an impactful story, but by telling us hes a bad guy not s grey character and pissing away the entire journey from tlou1
Definitely misguided. They really didn't need to kill Joel, but it's still showed his impact in Ellie life in a deep and profound way. The only problem was that the Abby portions made Ellie to be a bad buy, and we are made to feel for her the same way we feel for Abby. That felt horribly contrived.
Orrrrrrr the story is about revenge and the cycle of violence. What better way to do that by doing it early and sending Ellie and ME the player into a rage. Never in life have I played a game that had me crying yelling at the TV “ima kill ALL of you motherfuckers!”
There's no way you played this game if you think it painted Joel as the bad guy lol.
@@Killgore-ip2yqsee someone gets it. this game isnt about being woke or how this and that it is. its about exactly what you said man exactly
There is actually no way u finished the game. Abbys entire journey is about being able to move past her own ego, and be able to view things from other perspectives. Owen and Mel both call her out on it, and she realizes her own horrific actions. Because on one side of the table, she avenged her father, on the other she took away a father from a daughter and did the exact thing she swore to kill him for. So she has to go through this journey with lev and Yara to be able to mature and learn to see it from other perspectives. Ellie also goes through a similar thing, learning to accept joel, rather than forgive him, since he did indeed to bad things, but that doesn't make him a bad person. It also doesn't mean she should forgive him, rather than that, she should accept him for who he was, bad and good. The literal entire point of the second game was about not viewing things in black and white. There is actually no way u think the game painted joel as a bad guy. If anything, the first game made him seem like he was a good guy, this game removed that filter of black and white, and forced u to see them for who they truly were. It's actually crazy how ignorant tlou2 haters get just because they were upset about joels death. Istg yall be making up random shit half the time as if u didn't even play the game.
"Tell me a better version of the story."
"To this day I can't."
Wow. Such a lack of imagination, many people have in fact, come up with better versions of this story.
he said “to this day *they* still can’t”
you’re welcome.
There comes a point where maybe drawing attention to the idea that many many people have come up with better iterations and then saying none of them are, seems unnecessarily petty. Just salty.
Dude it’s HIS opinion
Please tell us who those people are, I'm begging you to show me the receipts
@@tutumazibuko2510 Go check out Luke Stephens' ultimate critique of the game. To this day, I haven't heard a better version than his.
I think Joel dying the way he did was EXACTLY how it should have been and how it would have been in the reality of that world. The game for me was an emotional rollercoaster. Not going to lie, I purposely threw Abbey to her detah a few times until I started to connect with her and her motivations. Fantastic game for me.
That's why I liked Joel's death so much. It stays true to the world they are living in. If Joel died in a heroic fashion it would have felt forced and shallow. A complete opposite of that world. I also loved how he accepted it.
"Let's get this over with."
He saw this coming. It was just a question of who and when. People tend to forget that Joel is NOT a hero. There are no heroes in this world. They are survivors living in a hellish world. Both Ellie AND Abby are villains. It's just a matter of perspective. Joel had ONE chance to be the hero, to save the world. He chose Ellie instead.
It's a good thing I wasn't in charge because I would have made Joel's death completely playable with the player being Abby.
@@StealthMaster86If they had went a different route of Joel dying heroically you wouldn’t be saying that
Another excuse to try and defend Joel’s terrible written death
@@jacobgonzalez2002giving Joel a heroic death would have been even worse honestly, it wouldn’t fit with what world they’ve established
@@chaotic-doxxer While true that doesn't mean what we got was good. Like you could say his being killed is more thematically appropriate, but that doesn't change the criticism that it took a lot of people out of the game or got a completely different response than expected like laughter or apathy.
Joel’s perfect death would’ve been him dying to defend Ellie
His death is literally a direct consequence to him saving Ellie
@@skennedy1893 his death is a consequence of him killing Abby’s father not saving ellie
Killed abby’s dad because he was trying to save ellie. So yes his desth is a consequence of saving ellie
Make a better story if u don't want to people talk trash to u that's it it's very simple and not complicated at all ok??
I play The Game. I have the game now.
People don't get the real emotional thing about this death... The sadnesses, the monstrous sadness im everyone, is the turning point about how important this is for the story. ND really nailed the grieving response. People just can't accept. And to be honest, his death is not tha miraculous or tha bad. Is just too normal for people to accept, of course is excessively brutal, but it's a little immature saying that everyone in the game deserve everything that happens. Especially in the second game, everybody is fucked up, even ellie, of course she had a real motivation but she even kill a pregnant woman by mistake. Abby kill a father for nothing, tommy lost everything for nothing. Loss is like that, especially when you abdicate a whole life for violence in his core, pure rage against everything that is on the other side. And to be honest the way people react really make a point on how emotional unstable we are, exactly like joel that by selfish love, take the chance that the world have to make different. Tess, sam, etc... A hole act of brutality for love, abby was not that different, the difference that joel didn't have someone to go after , ehen sarah died. He choose 20 years of war against everything. It's a good game, maybe we could have something more beautiful than a hole game abaout sadness,pain and loss. But he delivers what he intend to do and for that, you need cojones.
Yeah troy is right people always hate on the game because of joel dying they never talk about how good the gameplay is
The gameplay's the same paint-by-numbers third person shooter as the first only with punching.
I thought the story had some pacing issues but Joel's death made sense. I was shocked at first but as I got to know Abby & the Salt Lake Crew...I started to rock with them...I just love TLOU. I got upset when Tommy knocked off Manny.
Edit: This is an indictment that it's some really weird people in this world. To threaten someone with death over a character who doesn't exist is crazy.
Btw before anybody rage reply to this , he didn’t like his own comment it was me . The last of us part 2 really wasn’t that bad relax
Tommy killing Manny was like a light in a dark tunnel. We cheered.
Death threats are universal, there's no excuse but EVERYONE receives them. No one excuses them, no one claims them, no one wants them. Putting that on particular people without direct evidence for those people will not help anyone. Because we all agree it's not good. Please do not confuse the people offering criticism and people sending death threats, all that does is give the people sending death threats a scapegoat because they're cowards.
@@65fireredi’m confused on where the commenter pinned that title to individuals with perfectly reasonable criticism
@@damimami5144 Consider it a general rule. An understanding.
I don't think you should never kill Joel. For something happened centuries ago. Who's gonna die old age anyways?