Johnathan is solving the meaning crisis by providing the path to see what’s meaningful to you. The reason you care about something - and pull the unity of all the multiple facts into one story - reveals your purpose. Pay close attention to what you care about.
I played the song, 'Amazing Grace' as a saxophone solo when I was about 11 years old. I grew up in a very non-religious & musically inclined, loving home. I just thought the song was very pretty & I remember my mom telling me that there were people in the crowd that were crying by the end of the song. I thought that was beautiful because there weren't even any lyrics but yet this hymn obviously had deep meaning to so many. So I am now 39 years old & I only recently realized that the song actually happened to me in the most literal way possible about 3-4 years ago.. To explain, about 10 years ago when my only child at the time was about 3 years old, I got a tattoo of the name of the song by Bob Marley called 'Forever Loving JAH'. My daughter's initials are JAH and I felt like that statement was a way to express the way I felt about my aspect of God while also being dedicated to my daughter. Tbh I didn't even think too much about what the lyrics to the song meant, I just thought it was a cool way to express my love with personal meaning. Fast forward about 4-5 years later & I was fighting to get custody of my daughter back from her dad who at the time was blatantly keeping her from me & trying to only let me see and talk to her if I would agree to have relations with him.. So instead of me just cleaning up my act & taking all the classes and the recommendations & staying sober long enough to convince the court that I should have my child. I kept smoking weed, fell deeper into my selfishness, lost any friends or little support I might have had, my job, my house & continued to let my self pity & shame & stubborness override my innate aptitude for love & let my addicted brain convince me that I had some control by not allowing others to force me into admitting that I had a problem. I had become the exact weak & blind person that I tried so hard to convince myself I was not when I first lost custody. It did not help that I had no family that could help me to get her back & I was told by DYFS that I had to go to a long term rehab for at least 6-12 months & then do at least another 6 months of programs before I could even be alone w my child. Not to mention that I had no job and no house or family so all I could see was a mountain of impossibility & unfairness so I wasted almost another year trying to see her illegally when my shame & guilt would override my false pride enough to attempt to give her dad the attention he wanted before he'd kick me out bc I'd stick up for myself or he realized I wasn't there to see him.. So when I finally came to the decision that no matter how long it would take or how unfair I felt it was, I would do whatever I had to do to make my child know that she is loved & try to at least lessen the trauma that I had already caused her before it was too late. So the day that I finally called to get into rehab, I had already stopped using for a couple of weeks out of disgust & preparation for what I finally could admit that I HAD to do. So when I got off of the phone, a beautiful & extremely mystical sounding song by Bob Marley that I had never heard before started playing called, 'Sun Is Shining'. At the very end of the song there is a line that says, 'Awaken from your sleeping slumber, today could bring your lucky number'.. I looked at the clock & it was 9:12.. My daughter was born at 9:12 on 1-29-12 & my fathers birthday is 11-29. I sat outside the dirty motel room in the car in awe & waited for the call back to get into a long term rehab 3-4 hours away. By that afternoon I was told by the woman on the phone that I wasn't going to be able to go without drugs in my system & that I could possibly even get into a sober living facility- which I would have had to do after rehab no matter what. So after years of fighting & causing so much suffering & putting off doing what I knew was right, I got into a sober living facility in the same county that I had lived in & was able to do all of the classes I thought would be almost impossible online bc of Covid. During that time marijuana became legal, I got my medical card & was told by the facilitator after 3 months that due to them not having any implemented policies yet on it that I could not stay there but then she proceeded to introduce me to a woman she had counseled that was looking for a roommate. During that time my daughter's dad lost custody of her bc she told DYFS all of the things I had been trying to & she was staying with his older daughter. I was able to get my daughter back within 4 months of making that call & she was living with me within 6. It has now been 3 years & it has been emotional & a learning process but a truly amazing sense of grace in the manner in which my fears have been relieved & I have been able to heal & receive love- & am always learning how to love better. If you made it this far, please go & listen to both of those songs & you will see how, for me, playing the song, 'Amazing Grace' really seemed to be a foretelling to myself that I would make mistakes but also learn, love & teach.. & I only just recently realized it all (& then some!) after I saw a huge sign on a dump truck last week after I ran outside- right in the middle of an overblown argument with my spouse that said, 'God's grace is sufficient'.. & yes, yes it truly is ❤
@friendlyone2706 Thanks for the advice.. I do agree. I've just been so ready to tell about my experience that I just quickly spit it all out in hopes that others would see the positivity in it. But you're absolutely right, I've been working on a better draft.
Thanks Jonathan and Fred! Great Show! For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Acts17:28
This was so excellent. Such a beautiful thought expressed by Jonathan: “Everything is a miracle.” That is the state of mind one should strive to find, as often as possible. A sort of constant prayer.
I enjoy listening to Jonathan so much! It strikes me that so many of these atheist arguments only work in some purely abstract scenario in which 'the science' is the explanation for everything, and modernity has convinced us of this. But when you think of how we actually behave in reality, day to day it completely crumbles.
🐟 07. GOD (OR NOT): There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person, for the notion of an omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent Deity is both profoundly illogical and extremely incongruous, to put it mildly. At the risk of seeming facetious, any person who believes in a gigantic man (or woman) perched in the heavens, is a literal moron. Why would the Absolute require, for instance, unlimited power, when there is naught but the Absolute extant? Of course, theists would argue that when God creates the material universe, He requires total power and control over His creation (otherwise he wouldn’t be, by definition, the Supreme). However, that argument in itself easily falls apart when one understands the simple fact that time is a relative concept and therefore has no influence on the eternal, timeless Absolute. The same contradiction applies to omnipresence. The ONLY omni-property which comes close to being an accurate description of Ultimate Reality is omniscience, since the Absolute knows absolutely everything (i.e. Itself). The English word “PERSON” literally means “for sound”, originating from the Latin/Greek “persona/prósōpa”, referring to the masks worn by actors in ancient European theatrical plays, which featured a mouth hole to enable the actors to speak through. Therefore, the most essential aspect of personhood is that the individual possesses a face. The fact that we do not usually refer to a decapitated body as a “person”, seems to confirm this claim. If you were confronted simultaneously with a severed head and a decapitated body, and asked to point to the person, would you point to the head or point to the body? I'm sure most everyone would indicate the head, at least in the first instance, agreed? Theists, by definition, believe that there is a Supreme Deity (God or The Goddess), which incorporates anthropomorphic characteristics such as corporeal form (even if that form is a “spiritual” body, whatever that may connote), with a face (hence the term “PERSON”), and certain personality traits such as unique preferences and aversions. Of course, they also believe that their fictitious God or Goddess embodies the aforementioned omni-properties, but as clearly demonstrated above, that is also a largely nonsensical, fallacious assertion. Of course, the more INTELLIGENT theists normally counter with “But God is not a person in the same sense as we humans are persons. God is an all-powerful spiritual being, without a body. He is all-knowing, all-loving and present everywhere”. In that case, God is most definitely not a person in the etymological sense, and not even a person in the common-usage of the word. When did you last hear anyone refer to an omnipresent “entity” as being a person? The mere fact that theists use personal pronouns in reference to their non-existent Deity (usually the masculine pronoun “He”), proves that they have a very anthropomorphic conception of Absolute Reality. If God is not a male, then why use masculine pronouns? If God is, in fact, male, then why would the Supreme Person require gender? Does God require a female mate in order to reproduce? The most popular religious tradition, Christianity, claims that God is “Spirit”, yet “spirit” is a very vague and undefined term. Incidentally, the term “person” can be (and, in my opinion, should be) used in reference to any animal which possesses a FACE, since most humans do not accept the fact that animals are persons, worthy of moral consideration. In recent times, animal rights activists have been heard referring to animals in such a way (as persons). The fact that vegans are still relatively rare in most nations/countries, seems to validate this assertion (that most humans do not see other animals, like birds, fish, and mammals, as persons), otherwise, non-vegetarians/non-non-vegans would have no qualms about saying such things as “I am planning to consume three persons for dinner tonight” (in reference to three animals). Many otherwise intelligent theists, particularly the members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (a radical Indian cult first established in the United States of America in the late 1960’s by a truly delusional retired pharmacist named Mr. A. C. De), HONESTLY believe that the Ground of All Being is a youthful Indian gentleman with dark-blue-tinged black skin colour, who currently resides on His own planet in the “spiritual” world, and spends His days cavorting around with a bunch of cowherd girls! If one were to ask those ISKCon devotees how Lord Krishna manages to incorporate relative time into the timeless realm (since it takes a certain amount of time for Him to play his flute and to frolic with His girlfriends), then I’m not sure how they would answer, but they would undoubtedly dismiss the argument using illogical semantics. I’m ashamed to admit that I too, was previously one of those deluded religionists who believed such foolish nonsense. Thankfully, I managed to break-free from that brainwashing cult, and following decades or sincere seeking, came to be the current World Teacher himself. Common sense dictates that Ultimate Reality must NECESSARILY transcend all dualistic concepts, including personality and even impersonality. However, only an excruciatingly minute number of humans have ever grasped this complete understanding and realization. Neither Eternal Beingness, Unlimited Consciousness, nor Blissful Quietude (“sacchidānanda”, in Sanskrit) necessitate personality. See Chapter 06 to properly understand the nature of Ultimate Reality, and Chapter 03 to learn how to distinguish mere concepts from (Absolute) Truth. The wisest theologians will, when hard-pressed, admit that the primary reason for theists referring to the Absolute as personal in nature, is because the Absolute has some kind of MIND (by which they really mean some degree of Universal, Infinite Consciousness). However, it is indeed possible (and in fact, is the case) that the Ground of Being is Pure Consciousness Itself. Universal Consciousness (“puruṣa” or “brahman”, in Sanskrit) can and does include all characteristicss of Pure Being, such as unconditional love, unadulterated awareness, et cetera, and we humans are, quintessentially, of the same Nature. In other words, you are, fundamentally, “God” (“tat tvam asi”, in Sanskrit). Most arguments for the existence of a Supreme Creator God are actually arguments for the INTELLIGENT DESIGN of the perceivable universe, and not for the Intelligent Designer being a person as such. As explicated elsewhere, the phenomenal sphere is naught but an appearance in consciousness. Therefore, to assert that there is a cause of all causes is a a legitimate contention, but to abruptly attribute that first cause to be a male or female (or even an androgynous) Deity is a non-sequitur. There is no evidence for any phenomena without conscious awareness. There are at least FOUR possible reasons why many persons are convinced of the existence of a Personal God (i.e the Supreme [Male] Deity): 1. Because it is natural for any sensible person to believe that humans may not be the pinnacle of existence, and that there must be a higher power or ultimate creative force (an intelligent designer). However, because they cannot conceive of this designer being non-personal, they automatically suspect it must be a man (God) or a woman (The Goddess) with personal attributes. One who is truly awakened and/or enlightened understands that the Universal Self is the creator of all experiences and that he IS that (“tat tvam asi”, in Sanskrit). Cont...
How can Jonathan keep coming up with better ways of explaining this?? I had to listen around minute 25 like ten times because that’s one of his best explanations to date of that concept!
This is a really great interview you are an interviewer who it seems to me really gets where Jonathan is coming from, and more so than that asks a lot of the proper questions from a competing point of view to really highlight his way of thinking through the the comparison with our materialist framework. Thank you. Good stuff
Dear Fred, It was so amazing and such a happy coincidence to meet you and Jonathan in Montreal a couple days after listening to this podcast. I'm looking forward to learning more from your videos. p.s. -- music is NOT auditory cheesecake!
Thank you so verry verry much! Truely a remarkable conversation! I would ad that in this way of thinking one must admid that evil also truley excist in the universe, and is part of the whole! The question becomes than is it also part of the creator? Dostojewsky in my mind is the one that wrestles with that question the most profound.....? I have know idea, but I think in the same realm as Dostojewsky and Jordan Peterson....
Science is obsessed with body the same way men fall into the body of women as an idol. We reduce meaning for aesthetics without purpose and we do the same to women. In response we start to see nature worship and over sexuality as a reaction to the fall into obsession with body or material reality. Personally I think this is the same way Adam fell in the garden and forgot god falling into body before and similarly today eve looks for her own sense of power after losing the connection with god through what’s invisible she begins to self worship as a response to Adam obsession over body. Adam loses his identity and role no longer doing as god does which is the name from above and bring things into unity with him and him to god
Well it depends. Krishna said: Who worships the devas, actually worships me, but does that in the wrong way. You also have advaita, non-duality. So even Hinduism tends towards monotheism.
Some thoughts on miracles. Definition is a factor. My definition is perhaps simple but a starting point. A miracle is an act of God. Therefore everything is an act of God. What is problematic for many is the mind of man wants to have degrees of miracle. This approach limits God's actions and blocks consciousness in a way that prevents awareness of God. In a way our human laziness prevents seeing God in action in our lives. This brings to mind the ßplit screen experiment and how results come from inclusion of the observer. What miracles we see is because we become the observer. God is kind of like the unlimited potential and we as observer only are aware of a part. This leads me to reflecting on Genisis and God creating man in His image and likeness somehow being akin to consciousness which we really have little understanding of. Our lives at different stages may observe different patterns that involves our playing with splits, shapes of splits, lenses and filters & other tools we invent to affect the observation. The èxperiment only has one observer but there in our lives seem to be more than one observer and communication of observations helps us see more of the whole. Back to miracles, perhaps recognition of changes to pattern the ahha moments that insight has, that grows consciousness is why miracles seem special but really just limits we have as observers. I 'm throwing in now an artist mode to observer playing with elements (line, shape, colour, texture, and so on. Sometimes 8t feels like routine and sometimes it is wow. Anyhow, where my own thinking is pondering at the moment. It seems to open some potential.
L breaking bad take. Walter did not do it for his family he did it for himself. he even says as much. He did it for notoriety and for a form of success. He was the brains behind this billion dollar idea, that he was forced out of or missed out on. He was an abject genius the best in the business. Then he has to go on living this mediocre life as a chemistry teacher while his "friend" who was able to harvest the fruit of Walter's genius goes on living the most lavish life.
I'm not explaining it great but it's not really about his family. He feels bad for the extent his family was effected, but it's not about him protecting his family that's not his primary drive.
It's cool to disagree with another author but I wish Jonathan would respond to the the full concept of the chapter. What he's doing here is rebutting his own implied subtext to isolated quotes. Which, intentionally or not is arguing in bad faith. And he does so immediately after criticizing this kind of approach. Theologians, including Jonathan regularly complain about atheists taking bible verses out of context (for example). I think responsible interlocutors from all points should make a pointed effort to absorb the full thrust of a point before rebutting it. We should recognize that if we dislike caricature, quote mining, misrepresntation and straw manning we should first avoid using those tactics ourselves.
It really isn't about the correct pronouns. What they didn't do, was to correct how to humanise language and labels. Eg. "The Pagans" is better received as people who study/acknowledge pagan mythology. "She has Asperger's" is better received as person (name) is living with Asperger's. A small change in how we language labels that carried social stigma makes a big difference for everyone.
What he says is contradictory. He wonders how a person can care about anything if they don't believe in God. The point is that if even atheists care, there must be a reason for caring that doesn't require religious beliefs. Christian's pompously assert that only they have coherent morals, but history tells us otherwise. Christians are just as bad as everyone else. We have all evolved to be pretty similar, and long before Christianity came around, we shared the concepts of "right" and "wrong". But Christians like to twist these concepts, along with the concepts of common sense and logic, to imply that morality requires Jesus. That's just ignorant and childish.
Says the guy who doesn't know about the God like the fundamentalists of the old tines. And btv, those atheists with morals you mentioned will probably go to heaven.
@@cmaslan I am talking about the "old times". When the blessed fundamentalists tortured heretics, burned witches, outlawed science, and led murderous crusades in the name of God. Maybe you should look into it.
I think you missed the point entirely of what Jonathan is saying. He never said Christianity invented morality or that non-Christians can't care, I don't know where you got that. His point is that Richard Dawkins DOES care, and that it is logically inconsistent for him to say the universe doesn't care when Richard Dawkins is part of the universe and he does care.
The whole problem with this thesis is conceding Christianity is the only game in town. People today who do not already value guilt worship are not interested in this frame. He’s asking us to pretend & go along with something we know in our hearts isn’t true because he doesn’t know what else to do. The West existed before Christianity. The Renaissance was a reassertion of Greek pagan confidence not morality. We see it again in Art Decoo, Apollo & space shuttle programs, glam rock, & space X none of it Christian. I don’t value meekness. “Blessed are the poor in spirit” is not a morality that speaks to me. Wish he would address this more seriously than the false dichotomy against New Atheism.
You are not the one dictating the rules of the universe - if you do not like the idea of humility, live with pride, see where it takes you and people around you! Sooner or later you will have to face the music....
New Atheists, atheism in general isn't the foundation something can be built on. That's why the West is crumbling. Christianity is the belief system that has the best understanding about how reality works.To say there are other players, other ways... sure if you believe that another way to get to the first floor from the 12th is to jump down from the balcony, not to use the elevator or stairs. Because that's what atheism offers - a lot of blood and dead bodies.😊
Because the other religions and philosophies of the world do not have a coherent explanation and justification for the reality we experience. This has been a 6k year old conversation. You're stuck in false dichotomies.
Such juvenile bull crap God is the creator of everything. No he isn’t at sky pilot that punishes people all the time. That’s not what God is you’re making it that silly man.
So you thinking that God is not love??? That they is a disrespectful b**h that is disrespectful to the will of thy creations of his??? Not my direct words btv, but indirect implications of yours yn.
Johnathan is solving the meaning crisis by providing the path to see what’s meaningful to you. The reason you care about something - and pull the unity of all the multiple facts into one story - reveals your purpose. Pay close attention to what you care about.
Jonathan the GOAT 🔥🔥🔥
I played the song, 'Amazing Grace' as a saxophone solo when I was about 11 years old. I grew up in a very non-religious & musically inclined, loving home. I just thought the song was very pretty & I remember my mom telling me that there were people in the crowd that were crying by the end of the song. I thought that was beautiful because there weren't even any lyrics but yet this hymn obviously had deep meaning to so many. So I am now 39 years old & I only recently realized that the song actually happened to me in the most literal way possible about 3-4 years ago.. To explain, about 10 years ago when my only child at the time was about 3 years old, I got a tattoo of the name of the song by Bob Marley called 'Forever Loving JAH'. My daughter's initials are JAH and I felt like that statement was a way to express the way I felt about my aspect of God while also being dedicated to my daughter. Tbh I didn't even think too much about what the lyrics to the song meant, I just thought it was a cool way to express my love with personal meaning. Fast forward about 4-5 years later & I was fighting to get custody of my daughter back from her dad who at the time was blatantly keeping her from me & trying to only let me see and talk to her if I would agree to have relations with him.. So instead of me just cleaning up my act & taking all the classes and the recommendations & staying sober long enough to convince the court that I should have my child. I kept smoking weed, fell deeper into my selfishness, lost any friends or little support I might have had, my job, my house & continued to let my self pity & shame & stubborness override my innate aptitude for love & let my addicted brain convince me that I had some control by not allowing others to force me into admitting that I had a problem. I had become the exact weak & blind person that I tried so hard to convince myself I was not when I first lost custody. It did not help that I had no family that could help me to get her back & I was told by DYFS that I had to go to a long term rehab for at least 6-12 months & then do at least another 6 months of programs before I could even be alone w my child. Not to mention that I had no job and no house or family so all I could see was a mountain of impossibility & unfairness so I wasted almost another year trying to see her illegally when my shame & guilt would override my false pride enough to attempt to give her dad the attention he wanted before he'd kick me out bc I'd stick up for myself or he realized I wasn't there to see him.. So when I finally came to the decision that no matter how long it would take or how unfair I felt it was, I would do whatever I had to do to make my child know that she is loved & try to at least lessen the trauma that I had already caused her before it was too late. So the day that I finally called to get into rehab, I had already stopped using for a couple of weeks out of disgust & preparation for what I finally could admit that I HAD to do. So when I got off of the phone, a beautiful & extremely mystical sounding song by Bob Marley that I had never heard before started playing called, 'Sun Is Shining'. At the very end of the song there is a line that says, 'Awaken from your sleeping slumber, today could bring your lucky number'.. I looked at the clock & it was 9:12.. My daughter was born at 9:12 on 1-29-12 & my fathers birthday is 11-29. I sat outside the dirty motel room in the car in awe & waited for the call back to get into a long term rehab 3-4 hours away. By that afternoon I was told by the woman on the phone that I wasn't going to be able to go without drugs in my system & that I could possibly even get into a sober living facility- which I would have had to do after rehab no matter what. So after years of fighting & causing so much suffering & putting off doing what I knew was right, I got into a sober living facility in the same county that I had lived in & was able to do all of the classes I thought would be almost impossible online bc of Covid. During that time marijuana became legal, I got my medical card & was told by the facilitator after 3 months that due to them not having any implemented policies yet on it that I could not stay there but then she proceeded to introduce me to a woman she had counseled that was looking for a roommate. During that time my daughter's dad lost custody of her bc she told DYFS all of the things I had been trying to & she was staying with his older daughter. I was able to get my daughter back within 4 months of making that call & she was living with me within 6. It has now been 3 years & it has been emotional & a learning process but a truly amazing sense of grace in the manner in which my fears have been relieved & I have been able to heal & receive love- & am always learning how to love better. If you made it this far, please go & listen to both of those songs & you will see how, for me, playing the song, 'Amazing Grace' really seemed to be a foretelling to myself that I would make mistakes but also learn, love & teach.. & I only just recently realized it all (& then some!) after I saw a huge sign on a dump truck last week after I ran outside- right in the middle of an overblown argument with my spouse that said, 'God's grace is sufficient'.. & yes, yes it truly is ❤
Praise God for his loving communication with us. Beautiful story.
Great story, thanks and God Bless ☦️
Please make your beautiful story more accessible -- edit with paragraph breaks. Thank you.
@friendlyone2706 Thanks for the advice.. I do agree. I've just been so ready to tell about my experience that I just quickly spit it all out in hopes that others would see the positivity in it. But you're absolutely right, I've been working on a better draft.
Great conversation, Fred! Nice to meet you. Brilliant as always, Jonathan. Thank you both.
Thanks Jonathan and Fred! Great Show!
For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Acts17:28
This was so excellent. Such a beautiful thought expressed by Jonathan: “Everything is a miracle.” That is the state of mind one should strive to find, as often as possible. A sort of constant prayer.
They watch a lot of Jonathan and this is one of the best discussions I've heard in a long time. Thank you!
I enjoy listening to Jonathan so much! It strikes me that so many of these atheist arguments only work in some purely abstract scenario in which 'the science' is the explanation for everything, and modernity has convinced us of this.
But when you think of how we actually behave in reality, day to day it completely crumbles.
🐟 07. GOD (OR NOT):
There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person, for the notion of an omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent Deity is both profoundly illogical and extremely incongruous, to put it mildly. At the risk of seeming facetious, any person who believes in a gigantic man (or woman) perched in the heavens, is a literal moron.
Why would the Absolute require, for instance, unlimited power, when there is naught but the Absolute extant? Of course, theists would argue that when God creates the material universe, He requires total power and control over His creation (otherwise he wouldn’t be, by definition, the Supreme). However, that argument in itself easily falls apart when one understands the simple fact that time is a relative concept and therefore has no influence on the eternal, timeless Absolute. The same contradiction applies to omnipresence. The ONLY omni-property which comes close to being an accurate description of Ultimate Reality is omniscience, since the Absolute knows absolutely everything (i.e. Itself).
The English word “PERSON” literally means “for sound”, originating from the Latin/Greek “persona/prósōpa”, referring to the masks worn by actors in ancient European theatrical plays, which featured a mouth hole to enable the actors to speak through. Therefore, the most essential aspect of personhood is that the individual possesses a face. The fact that we do not usually refer to a decapitated body as a “person”, seems to confirm this claim. If you were confronted simultaneously with a severed head and a decapitated body, and asked to point to the person, would you point to the head or point to the body? I'm sure most everyone would indicate the head, at least in the first instance, agreed?
Theists, by definition, believe that there is a Supreme Deity (God or The Goddess), which incorporates anthropomorphic characteristics such as corporeal form (even if that form is a “spiritual” body, whatever that may connote), with a face (hence the term “PERSON”), and certain personality traits such as unique preferences and aversions. Of course, they also believe that their fictitious God or Goddess embodies the aforementioned omni-properties, but as clearly demonstrated above, that is also a largely nonsensical, fallacious assertion.
Of course, the more INTELLIGENT theists normally counter with “But God is not a person in the same sense as we humans are persons. God is an all-powerful spiritual being, without a body. He is all-knowing, all-loving and present everywhere”. In that case, God is most definitely not a person in the etymological sense, and not even a person in the common-usage of the word. When did you last hear anyone refer to an omnipresent “entity” as being a person? The mere fact that theists use personal pronouns in reference to their non-existent Deity (usually the masculine pronoun “He”), proves that they have a very anthropomorphic conception of Absolute Reality. If God is not a male, then why use masculine pronouns? If God is, in fact, male, then why would the Supreme Person require gender? Does God require a female mate in order to reproduce? The most popular religious tradition, Christianity, claims that God is “Spirit”, yet “spirit” is a very vague and undefined term.
Incidentally, the term “person” can be (and, in my opinion, should be) used in reference to any animal which possesses a FACE, since most humans do not accept the fact that animals are persons, worthy of moral consideration. In recent times, animal rights activists have been heard referring to animals in such a way (as persons). The fact that vegans are still relatively rare in most nations/countries, seems to validate this assertion (that most humans do not see other animals, like birds, fish, and mammals, as persons), otherwise, non-vegetarians/non-non-vegans would have no qualms about saying such things as “I am planning to consume three persons for dinner tonight” (in reference to three animals).
Many otherwise intelligent theists, particularly the members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (a radical Indian cult first established in the United States of America in the late 1960’s by a truly delusional retired pharmacist named Mr. A. C. De), HONESTLY believe that the Ground of All Being is a youthful Indian gentleman with dark-blue-tinged black skin colour, who currently resides on His own planet in the “spiritual” world, and spends His days cavorting around with a bunch of cowherd girls! If one were to ask those ISKCon devotees how Lord Krishna manages to incorporate relative time into the timeless realm (since it takes a certain amount of time for Him to play his flute and to frolic with His girlfriends), then I’m not sure how they would answer, but they would undoubtedly dismiss the argument using illogical semantics. I’m ashamed to admit that I too, was previously one of those deluded religionists who believed such foolish nonsense. Thankfully, I managed to break-free from that brainwashing cult, and following decades or sincere seeking, came to be the current World Teacher himself.
Common sense dictates that Ultimate Reality must NECESSARILY transcend all dualistic concepts, including personality and even impersonality. However, only an excruciatingly minute number of humans have ever grasped this complete understanding and realization. Neither Eternal Beingness, Unlimited Consciousness, nor Blissful Quietude (“sacchidānanda”, in Sanskrit) necessitate personality. See Chapter 06 to properly understand the nature of Ultimate Reality, and Chapter 03 to learn how to distinguish mere concepts from (Absolute) Truth.
The wisest theologians will, when hard-pressed, admit that the primary reason for theists referring to the Absolute as personal in nature, is because the Absolute has some kind of MIND (by which they really mean some degree of Universal, Infinite Consciousness). However, it is indeed possible (and in fact, is the case) that the Ground of Being is Pure Consciousness Itself. Universal Consciousness (“puruṣa” or “brahman”, in Sanskrit) can and does include all characteristicss of Pure Being, such as unconditional love, unadulterated awareness, et cetera, and we humans are, quintessentially, of the same Nature. In other words, you are, fundamentally, “God” (“tat tvam asi”, in Sanskrit).
Most arguments for the existence of a Supreme Creator God are actually arguments for the INTELLIGENT DESIGN of the perceivable universe, and not for the Intelligent Designer being a person as such. As explicated elsewhere, the phenomenal sphere is naught but an appearance in consciousness. Therefore, to assert that there is a cause of all causes is a a legitimate contention, but to abruptly attribute that first cause to be a male or female (or even an androgynous) Deity is a non-sequitur. There is no evidence for any phenomena without conscious awareness.
There are at least FOUR possible reasons why many persons are convinced of the existence of a Personal God (i.e the Supreme [Male] Deity):
1. Because it is natural for any sensible person to believe that humans may not be the pinnacle of existence, and that there must be a higher power or ultimate creative force (an intelligent designer). However, because they cannot conceive of this designer being non-personal, they automatically suspect it must be a man (God) or a woman (The Goddess) with personal attributes. One who is truly awakened and/or enlightened understands that the Universal Self is the creator of all experiences and that he IS that (“tat tvam asi”, in Sanskrit).
Cont...
Great convo! God bless you all
PART 2 SOON PLEASE!
When Jonathan gets interviewed it helps me so much to understand him more
Excellent interview, it was a lot of fun listening to this.
you're asking all the right questions in the intro. i'll be happy to listen to this in great detail.
Good interview, I appreciate your way of getting in the same mindset
Really appreciate this discussion.
How can Jonathan keep coming up with better ways of explaining this?? I had to listen around minute 25 like ten times because that’s one of his best explanations to date of that concept!
This is a really great interview you are an interviewer who it seems to me really gets where Jonathan is coming from, and more so than that asks a lot of the proper questions from a competing point of view to really highlight his way of thinking through the the comparison with our materialist framework. Thank you. Good stuff
Dear Fred,
It was so amazing and such a happy coincidence to meet you and Jonathan in Montreal a couple days after listening to this podcast. I'm looking forward to learning more from your videos. p.s. -- music is NOT auditory cheesecake!
Great meeting you too !
Incredible quality podcast, both you and the neatness of the image
Would love a part 2. I’m a big fan of Jonathan’s work
Very enriching.
What an inspireing conversation! Great interviewer! 😊
Wonderful!!
Really enjoyed this
Wonderful interview. I watch most of Johnathan’s interviews and this one was one of his best. And the most digestible lol
great questions! love the politics section, something ive been thinking about
Awesome
Thank you so verry verry much! Truely a remarkable conversation! I would ad that in this way of thinking one must admid that evil also truley excist in the universe, and is part of the whole! The question becomes than is it also part of the creator? Dostojewsky in my mind is the one that wrestles with that question the most profound.....? I have know idea, but I think in the same realm as Dostojewsky and Jordan Peterson....
Please do do another meetup podcast. This was good, thank you
Good talk!
JP!!! 🙌🏼
Thanks
Because his thoughts are powerful and ppl are interested in Christian faith.
JONATHAN PAGEAU IS THE GOAT THE GOATTTTTTT 🐐 🐐 🐐 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Why is Jonathan spamming everywhere now? Hahaha
I want his brother to do the same but he's hard to find.
@@programme9363he just had another conversation with Dan sherven if you didn't see
@@programme9363 In what would you say he differs from his brother?
Riding the limelight while it's available, but hopefully he stays in it forever
Forever
Orthodoxy is the Only Truth!
In your own words, define “TRUTH”. ☝️🤔☝️
Is it just me, or does his voice sound very similar to Michael Millerman's? In any case, great video!
That’s who I thought it was
Canadians 👍
@@voocasa Jewish Canadians? 😂
@@bryanutility9609 pinto looks like a brown dude. Possible J. Regardless, sound the same.
I bumped up the difficulty of this sudoku I'm doing to the highest difficulty, just to take more time to listen to this 😅
What if we both anchor and Explore???
At 19 on, an exceptionally wise insight, including the observation, if you care too much about sex, you will have fewer progeny.
Viable
Is dawkins an extreme outsider.
23:50 I guess you could say… long hair, don’t care..
Science is obsessed with body the same way men fall into the body of women as an idol. We reduce meaning for aesthetics without purpose and we do the same to women. In response we start to see nature worship and over sexuality as a reaction to the fall into obsession with body or material reality. Personally I think this is the same way Adam fell in the garden and forgot god falling into body before and similarly today eve looks for her own sense of power after losing the connection with god through what’s invisible she begins to self worship as a response to Adam obsession over body. Adam loses his identity and role no longer doing as god does which is the name from above and bring things into unity with him and him to god
🤔
This is deep. Thank you both
I guess Hinduism is one of the few remaining multi-theist religions.
Well it depends. Krishna said: Who worships the devas, actually worships me, but does that in the wrong way. You also have advaita, non-duality. So even Hinduism tends towards monotheism.
Some thoughts on miracles. Definition is a factor. My definition is perhaps simple but a starting point. A miracle is an act of God. Therefore everything is an act of God. What is problematic for many is the mind of man wants to have degrees of miracle. This approach limits God's actions and blocks consciousness in a way that prevents awareness of God. In a way our human laziness prevents seeing God in action in our lives. This brings to mind the ßplit screen experiment and how results come from inclusion of the observer. What miracles we see is because we become the observer. God is kind of like the unlimited potential and we as observer only are aware of a part. This leads me to reflecting on Genisis and God creating man in His image and likeness somehow being akin to consciousness which we really have little understanding of. Our lives at different stages may observe different patterns that involves our playing with splits, shapes of splits, lenses and filters & other tools we invent to affect the observation. The èxperiment only has one observer but there in our lives seem to be more than one observer and communication of observations helps us see more of the whole. Back to miracles, perhaps recognition of changes to pattern the ahha moments that insight has, that grows consciousness is why miracles seem special but really just limits we have as observers. I 'm throwing in now an artist mode to observer playing with elements (line, shape, colour, texture, and so on. Sometimes 8t feels like routine and sometimes it is wow. Anyhow, where my own thinking is pondering at the moment. It seems to open some potential.
The Jewish people and Israel are proof of GOD. GOD is full filing prophecy prophecies right before our eyes.
If you follow the Talmud, every line is blurry.
L breaking bad take. Walter did not do it for his family he did it for himself. he even says as much. He did it for notoriety and for a form of success. He was the brains behind this billion dollar idea, that he was forced out of or missed out on. He was an abject genius the best in the business. Then he has to go on living this mediocre life as a chemistry teacher while his "friend" who was able to harvest the fruit of Walter's genius goes on living the most lavish life.
I'm not explaining it great but it's not really about his family. He feels bad for the extent his family was effected, but it's not about him protecting his family that's not his primary drive.
@@cesardude99
In other words, maybe he is motivated by BOTH himself and his family, but family was a distant 2nd
morality and activism can't be separate from art ? we can't have art for art sake and separately have religion and participation ?
It's cool to disagree with another author but I wish Jonathan would respond to the the full concept of the chapter. What he's doing here is rebutting his own implied subtext to isolated quotes. Which, intentionally or not is arguing in bad faith. And he does so immediately after criticizing this kind of approach. Theologians, including Jonathan regularly complain about atheists taking bible verses out of context (for example). I think responsible interlocutors from all points should make a pointed effort to absorb the full thrust of a point before rebutting it. We should recognize that if we dislike caricature, quote mining, misrepresntation and straw manning we should first avoid using those tactics ourselves.
0:45 nah just answer the question 😂
If you answer like this, then the answer is yes but you don’t want to seem dumb
It really isn't about the correct pronouns. What they didn't do, was to correct how to humanise language and labels. Eg. "The Pagans" is better received as people who study/acknowledge pagan mythology. "She has Asperger's" is better received as person (name) is living with Asperger's. A small change in how we language labels that carried social stigma makes a big difference for everyone.
What he says is contradictory. He wonders how a person can care about anything if they don't believe in God. The point is that if even atheists care, there must be a reason for caring that doesn't require religious beliefs. Christian's pompously assert that only they have coherent morals, but history tells us otherwise. Christians are just as bad as everyone else. We have all evolved to be pretty similar, and long before Christianity came around, we shared the concepts of "right" and "wrong". But Christians like to twist these concepts, along with the concepts of common sense and logic, to imply that morality requires Jesus. That's just ignorant and childish.
Says the guy who doesn't know about the God like the fundamentalists of the old tines.
And btv, those atheists with morals you mentioned will probably go to heaven.
@@cmaslan I am talking about the "old times". When the blessed fundamentalists tortured heretics, burned witches, outlawed science, and led murderous crusades in the name of God. Maybe you should look into it.
I think you missed the point entirely of what Jonathan is saying. He never said Christianity invented morality or that non-Christians can't care, I don't know where you got that. His point is that Richard Dawkins DOES care, and that it is logically inconsistent for him to say the universe doesn't care when Richard Dawkins is part of the universe and he does care.
@@christiancameron2997 nice.
@@christiancameron2997 noice.
The whole problem with this thesis is conceding Christianity is the only game in town. People today who do not already value guilt worship are not interested in this frame.
He’s asking us to pretend & go along with something we know in our hearts isn’t true because he doesn’t know what else to do.
The West existed before Christianity. The Renaissance was a reassertion of Greek pagan confidence not morality. We see it again in Art Decoo, Apollo & space shuttle programs, glam rock, & space X none of it Christian. I don’t value meekness. “Blessed are the poor in spirit” is not a morality that speaks to me.
Wish he would address this more seriously than the false dichotomy against New Atheism.
You are not the one dictating the rules of the universe - if you do not like the idea of humility, live with pride, see where it takes you and people around you! Sooner or later you will have to face the music....
@@kbeetles what is pride?
New Atheists, atheism in general isn't the foundation something can be built on. That's why the West is crumbling. Christianity is the belief system that has the best understanding about how reality works.To say there are other players, other ways... sure if you believe that another way to get to the first floor from the 12th is to jump down from the balcony, not to use the elevator or stairs. Because that's what atheism offers - a lot of blood and dead bodies.😊
@@bryanutility9609 self naming. You like the greek. The circle of violence that happened with Uranus Zeus and Kronos.The idea that you assert reality.
Because the other religions and philosophies of the world do not have a coherent explanation and justification for the reality we experience. This has been a 6k year old conversation. You're stuck in false dichotomies.
Lots of words, sounds intelligent but filled with obscurity....
Example?
Such juvenile bull crap God is the creator of everything. No he isn’t at sky pilot that punishes people all the time. That’s not what God is you’re making it that silly man.
So you thinking that God is not love???
That they is a disrespectful b**h that is disrespectful to the will of thy creations of his???
Not my direct words btv, but indirect implications of yours yn.
Jonathan is an egotistical person, I think he thinks he’s a deity!