Can a Helicopter Flight Sim Pilot Fly a REAL Helicopter?
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2023
- The big question on the mind of many sim pilots, can a sim pilot fly a real plane. Well, we did just that to see how it went.
The video is a short extract of a 1 hour flight done by me, EishGamer, Andries Lombaard, to see what the relation is in sim to real.
For many years I had an obsession in spending hours of flying a helicopter sim. I spent hours on DCS and Xplane 12, mostly flying the available helicopters. In December 2022 I build an authentic helicopter simulator, with flight controls that included high-end cyclic, collective lever and rudder(direction control) pedals.
After years on a Microsoft Force Feedback joystick, it took me quite a while to learn new coordination between both hands and feet. 40 odd hours later, I tested myself in attempting to fly the real thing. This is the video we made that covered that flight.
It all started with a dream!
Enjoy! - Ігри
My friend and I learnt to fly in DCS. We both wanted to know whether our sim skills would translate at all to a real helicopter. We phoned around various schools explaining our situation and whether we could come and see if we could hover a real heli. Most laughed and hung up but one school and chief instructor was intrigued to know so we booked in for 30 mins each. We were taken out in a Cabri G2 and the plan was to hand over the controls one at a time (providing we were getting it). Cyclic first, then collective and finally pedals. Both of us were able to. I won't lie, once handed over the pedals we were at full brain capacity but we hovered with control on heading in ground effect. The instructor was blown away. We both went on with our training. The summary was our piloting skills after a few hours was equivalent to someone with 20-30 hours. What we did have to work on was all the nav and theory. Absolutely love it and recommend it as a way to learn. I will caveat it with you need to be using full cockpit peripherals, a decent model (,DCS) and definitely VR to allow the ability to move your head around to fly looking out the cockpit at different angles.
Thanks, I was searching for exactly this experience. I am thinking it would be similar to learning to driven stick and get the feeling of gas, brake, clutch when starting on a hill. You could learn that on a simulator and then in a car with actual weight and panic the adjustment to real life would be quick but not instant. Even with the expense of a good enough simulator, must be less than $5k, it should save money over actual flight time with an instructor and eliminate the crash risk.
its the same with sim racing, although messing up in a race vs a helo isnt as dangerous, but yeah they find most people who can race well in sims it actually transfers over to real world
DCS = Digital Combat Simulator? Is this VR. Compatible?
I'm looking to build out my own simulator with VR for helicopter piloting only. Are there any good guides or suggestions out there for materials?
As a young tech engineer, one of my hi-lights of my career was to sit in the cockpit of the Space Shuttle flight simulator at the MacDonald Douglas facilities in St Louis MO. I worked for a computer graphics company and was the field engineer. There was also a simulator for the F4D Phantom and the F14 tomcat. My company created the HUDisplays
I would love to see those real high-tech sims. More so, try them out as well!
@@egevolvedsimrigs
I could be wrong, but I thank we have sims for craft that have no moving parts.
Just from years of work as a tech for some days I could be cleaning bathrooms and the next setting in a undercover DEA aircraft, No I am no one special just at times found myself in jobs because i was someone you could trust to get the job done, and don't expect you to believe me.
But just possible open your mind and peek inside of what's possible. and under lock and key for the most part after all the SR71 was put out of service long before most people had any ideal it was even on the drawing board much less flying
Remember the story of a pilot who took an Airforce Jet for a flight, if i remember right he had more time in the flight Sim at the base than anyone, now he was a pilot who set a recoard on high Altude and because he was not in a pressure Sute he receives injures that would keep him out of USAF flight training,
But one night he took up one of their aircraft and had no trouble flying or bring it back to the base.
Yes, he was toss into the Brig/jail. but due to his outstanding job performance and his setting a record he was for the most part let off with no more than a warring of don't do that ever.
He left the AirForce and became a very good test pilot.
I forget his name,
This is so wonderful to see! I have had this experience myself! I trained countless hours on DCS Huey, and then I got an introductory flight in an R22 as a birthday present from my awesome brothers, and I could fly it, hover, and land! Nice to see I'm not the only one!
Exactly. In my case, being an intro flight, usually, the instructor would have you more controls to handle as you progress. Usually, they start with the cyclic. In this case, my instructor asked me how I would like to do it, and I responded that I would like to try all controls right from the start. I must admit, that was kind of overwhelming in a way. My subsequent flight turned out to be much more relaxed for me.
Absolute BS,.
I did the same, but with many hours on Battlefield 3. Wife got me an introductory flight for my birthday in Vegas years ago. Flew it and hovered, instructor wasn't happy.... I didn't tell him it was from gaming.
@@Kiwi_Dave Not necessarily. DCS' helicopter simulations are pretty good, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if someone put a lot of time into the Huey module for that game and then proceeded to do pretty good with the flying aspect (and procedures) in an introductory flight for a real helicopter...
@@BootyGoblinesque No PC desktop is even close to reality of flying a helicopter. It's absolute nonsense to think you have any more ability than anyone else. I have years of sim experience but I'm also a C-CAT and CPL Helicopters.
The lack of video screens showing the ground during the hover is the problem with FS helicopters. When hovering, your visual cues come from detecting your motion over the ground using your peripheral vision, not just looking straight ahead at the horizon. If the Sims could display the ground directly below the cockpit then you might be able to learn to hover in the simulator. Adding a bunch of screens below the cockpit would be an interesting addition that might work. I have 4000+ hrs as a pilot in helos, mostly the Sea King.
orr you can use some headtracking deviceTrackIR or Freetrac or VR
Sooooo you need VR with massive FOV? :D
I had an hour’s lesson 27 years ago on a S300. I was a Cessna flight instructor at the time. In the hour I managed to hover, transition into the climb, fly a circuit and translate back to the hover and land. An autorotation was demoed but not attempted. I could never fly helicopters in sims despite lots of trying! That was until I got my first VR headset. Once I did, it all came back!
Even in the fixed wing aircraft VR really does blow me away. The first time I loaded up my home airport and saw it with VR depth I was completely lost in immersion. It went from "Goofin off on a flat screen." to forgetting I wasn't in a plane. I've busted my knuckles reaching for flaps that weren't there!
Must agree. I think the combination of VR and motion should change the game a lot!
You achieved all of that within one hour? BS I've had ex military airline captains with thousands of hours of experience try into flights and their ability is only slightly above anyone else trying a helicopter for the first time. They can't hover and they certainly can't fly a circuit. This flight sim world is filled with so many liars.
This was so cool. Thanks for sharing/posting. Cheers!
I'm sure the simulator time must have helped a ton. When I started my helicopter private pilot course, I had no helicopter simulator time but I had roughly 7 years of RC helicopter flying under my belt. IMO my previous RC helicopter experience helped me enormously when I began learning to fly the real thing. The simulator experience must have helped this guy even more than my RC flying helped me. Edit: than you so much for sharing this!! I had a blast watching this video. Best regards from Brasilia, Brazil.
Well, think about it, even on the RC, it is all about coordination and coordinated flight in a real helicopter is what it is all about. RC is just a different muscle memory that you need to learn.
I had to actually check out your channel to see if you were lying about the rc stuff you check out true!!! I fly and upload rc airplanes i fly long range fpv myself i tried the helicopters but i found fixed wing more enjoyable you can cover many many miles vs drones or helicopters lasting only a few minutes
@sganerlag
I started to “learn” how to fly RC helicopters back in 2015. It seemed like it took me days and days to finally “get it”. In other words, the ability to get off of the ground without crashing that is. It’s like once I “got it”, it was sort of like riding a bicycle. There is just a certain feel to it. I’m not implying that I’m good at it, but I can get one off of the ground and fly figure 8’s with it. Sometimes
The input that it requires is absolutely the very smallest of movements. It takes extremely little input. I initially was putting too much input which caused multiple crashes.
I quit flying them, because my wife got tired of the dining table being constantly strewn with parts while I was repairing it from trying to fly it around.
I have never been in a real helicopter.
Cheers
>> I had no helicopter simulator time but I had roughly 7 years of RC helicopter flying
I was in exactly that same situation. The R/C heli responds much more quickly. But by asking the instructor to let me learn one control at a time, I became moderately proficient in about 40 minutes.
DCS is a great sim, anyone who would like to experience being a helo pilot should try it. It even supports VR.
I had something of the opposite experience. I learned to fly in the R22. Of course I can fly helis in the sim, but what I can't do is hover the accurate R22 models. There's just something about the feel of it that doesn't come through in the sim, and the R22 is a squirrelly beast, even in light winds. I trained in Honolulu, where it's pretty windy every day. Great job with the hovering, there... you're right, hovering well takes almost imperceptible inputs that after a few hours you're just not conscious of any more. It's great that they let you fly the 44, much more forgiving.
Fantastic, Andries ! When you do something you enjoy and is a passion, I think you will most likely do well. I've been playing MSFS 2020 since covid and have bought flight yoke controls, rudder pedals etc. Last summer booked a proper Cessna flight at my local flying school here in Leicester UK. Although I didn't get to take off and land on my introductory flight the instructor said he could tell I had been learning with MSFS 2020 and was impressed with my knowledge and grasp of the controls. The flying school use the sim alongside their real instructors so it just goes to show, how good modern sims are. Love your simrigs, great stuff ! Cheers, Daz, UK.
I find the younger generation are more open to using simple tools like this. Old school boys may not be interested!
In 2006 I used to fly a helicopter on a video war game called Battlefield 2. When I first tried to fly it I crashed, over and over again. Eventually I got very good flying a Cobra. I would fly and my friend would hop in the gunner's seat. Together we were airborne murder.
So we got to talking about whether or not the skills I learned would translate into the real world. I already had commercial, instrument and multi-engine ratings for fixed wing. There was a flight school with Schweitzer 300 CBi birds, so I took a demo flight. From the start I was able to lift off, fly around and bring it back to a hover. The instructor was amazed and frankly so was I. My control wasn't perfect, but within 3-4 hours I had pretty much mastered it.
Who knew a silly FPS war game could give you skills transferable to the real world?
I also used to fly the heli in BF. Flying was one thing, staying alive another as you always het some jet or another heli shooting at you. But I get what you are saying, love it!
lol
Awesome video !! I just got back from a visit to L3Harris Flight School in Orlando, Florida and had a similar experience on a Piper Archer III. I've been flying for approx 30 years on each version of Microsoft Flight Simulator as it released. As I got older I was able to afford better peripherals, bigger screens and a very fast and powerful PC to take the realism to ever increasing heights. However nothing prepares you for the moment that you sit in a cold and dark cockpit after doing a pre-flight check for real, getting it progressively started up, taxiing, holding short, and then the moment when ATC clears you to go, and the throttle moves fully forward and you're flying for real. My flight instructor was amazing and allowed me to take-off, fly around, do some high G turns and a stall, and even land (with his hands on the controls all the way to take over at any point of course). What surprised me more than anything was my utter fixation with the Garmin G1000 throughout the entire flight - something I didn't really expect. Anyway - this is something I recommend wholeheartedly to any sim enthusiast - helicopter or GA (assuming passenger jets and fighter aircraft would be tall order !!
i made a similar experience with a Cabri G2. Flying RC collectiv pitch helicopters for many years, for me hovering was ok. But without gyro stabilization each change of collective pitch needed a correction with the pedals. This was really new for me. Kind regards from germany.
Well done! The hardest part is landing and hovering, especially when it's windy!
My first time in a real cockpit (fixed wing) shocked me after alot of simulator time. The sim was closer to reality than I previous thought. As the guy says: different but the same. My instructor also shocked me. He used game-sims in his spare time as well and thought they helped in the training. Not what I expected him to say. He told me that the more you treat a simulator like the real thing, the more real it will feel to you. Of course it is not the same, but it is a training aid.
I was able to practice a real lesson in the simulator afterwards which was really cool. After that my sim never felt the same.
I am with you on this. The sim does miss a lot of that "seat of your pants" you require, however it can be a huge training aid regardless.
Sweet hovering skills Andries 👏🏼👌🏼🤓
The same was done once with a kid who learned to fly model aeroplanes on a flight sim, the first time out with a real model aeroplane he was able to take off, fly around and land it so a flight sim will definatley give you a good head start. I fly model helicopters and a friend of mine who does the same got a chance to try and hover a Schweizer 300, within 5 minutes he was hovering it himself all be it rather untidley but much to the complete surprise of the instructor who swore he had full size helicopter training, it was only when the instructor found out he flew model helicopters he reckoned it was that knowledge of knowing what was happening with the cyclic, collective, throttle and tail rotor allowed him to hover it himself in 5 minutes.
I got to try a category d boeing 767 flight simulator after many years on MS Flight Sim and what struck me was how much more physical the "real" thing is. Especially when it came to trimming the flight controls - if you weren't on it, then you were wrestling the thing all the way.
I'm glad the intro flight was in a 44 and not a 22, as the 22 is much harder to fly, where as the 44 would have felt a little more like the sim
Correct. I am just too heavy to fly the 22, but I am told it is very different indeed
I came here to say the same thing. Most of the intro flights I gave were in the 22. The first time I gave one in the 44 I thought the guy was a really good being his first time, until it clicked that it’s just how much easier it is to fly the 44.
@@ryancox2799 Why is that, if you don't mind me asking? Is the 44 just less twitchy? Is it more stable or less prone to being pushed around by the elements?
@@BootyGoblinesquethe main reason is because the 44 has hydraulics where the 22 has elastic cords to help with pilot fatigue. The 44 is more of a stable aircraft to fly.
cant compare a 22 to a 44, 44 is very flattering, but learning in a 22, for me is the best foundation. @@ryancox2799
Balancing on the head of a ball point pen. nice. Well done sir!
Definitely cool to see. I've had the UH1 on DCS for 3 years and fly it every day. I have a custom 22 inch goose neck, VKB pedals and Virpil collective with a custom grip on it. (hated the UH60 grip). Hydraulic feedback on everything and deep down I kind of knew I wouldn't have any problems flying a real one. Now knowing what to do during an emergency is a different story.
BS
@@Kiwi_Dave did my profile pic trigger you? Are we a Jacinda fan? jk lol, no true story. I built it all myself. No full motion, only 3 butt kickers. I'd like to have full motion, but I think I'd never leave the house if I was able to afford such a thing.
Dave seems to be unconvinced! But I like the sound of your setup there!
@@egevolvedsimrigs Unconvinced because even Level-D experience won't prepare you for the real thing. You'll have a better understanding of the controls and basic procedures but that's it.
Yes! the sim time was very beneficial in my training. For hard core Sim pilots definitely take a intro flight in an aircraft. This will help you set your sim controls it feel more realistic. For example, was able to hover the R22 within a few minutes after I became familiar with the control sensitivity.
Excellent Video loved every second of it
Awesome stuff, and thank you! I'd love to learn more about your sim, because right now, R44II flight is 600USD/hr. I've been hunting sims with proper controls (cyclic and collectiv) so advice is appreciated.
I don't take without giving. I'm a commerical helicopter pilot FAA Certificated in the United States, with many hundreds of hours in R22, R44, B06, HUCO (AH1-F). If there' s a question you or your viewers have, send it my way. I either know it, know someone who knows it, or (because it's helis) will research it.
Thanks for the video. Makes my feet tingle!
This is very simple setup. The main thing is to source some good controls. Been using the Virpil Controls, that really do a great job on a setup that we offer here in South Africa
Awesome, nice one Andries!
I think the dead zone from sim to real life has to play a big part! Also in real life you can feel the smallest amount of movement, where a sim you only have the visual to guide you. Ice work and great video!
Agree, the real thing becomes overwhelming when you suddenly feel that the input on the controls, actually make stuff move.
Very cool. God Speed mate !
Ive been an instructor in the past and I would say teaching someone who has had time in a simulator doesn't give you much advantage unless its an all axis one, because you cant feel the motion to react to it, however I have trained pilot who have a lot of experience flying scale RC helicopters and they took to it much better and advanced quicker. So i would say no . Notice she is hanging on to the cyclic because hovering is the most difficult and can easily get away with you and out of control.
Excellent video!
Glad you liked it!
I've done introductory flight on planes but not helicopters yet. I have over 20k hours in plane flight sims and around 3k hours on helicopters. In the plane I took off, flew, and landed in a crosswind.
Would love to add a rig like this to my setup for streaming, have many hours racing and flying and it's such a pain having to remove wheels and shuffle joysticks around constantly nice video!
Setups like this is pricy, but just so much more convenient.
As a student pilot myself i use x-plane 12 with a VR headset. Once you use a VR headset its like night and day and will be the biggest jump in reality in realism over any other thing you can do. Buy a VR headset (and make sure you also have a good joystick and pedals) and your sim training will be far more effective.
Yes.
Im a sole owner and fly a Robinson R22 and the DCS KA50
The R22 came first.
Winter boots in warm south africa?
Crazy.
Greetings From Finland!
LOL, no they are just fancy Nike Boots. But thanks for greeting us!
WAY head of them.
I did this years ago, like early 2000s after only flying only in FSX.
It went amazingly. They didn't let me do the startup procedure directly, but they let me point to everything, just not actually flick the buttons and stuff.
But once in the air, I was flying around, and when we got back to the airport I put us into a very low hover and we did spins on the spot.
Was actually quite scary trying to keep myself out of ground effect while having the wind whip the tail around after it changes from being on the left side of the aircraft to the other.. had to be quick with your feet.
Other than that being scary, I had an amazing time and would definitely do it again if not for the price of the fuel and instructor price.
In 93' I got the bug to fly. Read an article about a "free flight" coupon in MS Flight. I have a muni airport 5 miles away. I spent a year reading NTSB reports, a thick book "Learning to Fly" and time on MS Flight. My flight instructor also taught a flying class at a local private college. He said I was the best student he ever had and most prepared. I explained, my parents aren't paying for this, I am :) My point being, what doing the hard boring stuff as if it matters on the comp sim can be converted into dollars saved if you really want to try flying.
And if you love roller coasters, you'll love short field approach over obstacle simulation for real. Landing is one of the best parts of it all because your face has a permanent smile plastered on it for a while because it was a great flight, no matter how long or far, every one is awesome.
I was flying Microsoft FlightSim for years before my first flight in a Cessna 152. And this was 1992. My instructor was surprised that I could fly and land on my very first flight.
After that, I joined airline, flying wide body jets and still play MS FlightSim but then I fly Bell JetRanger a lot.
Fast forward two decades later, I went on an introductory flight in an R22. Again, my instructor was quite surprised that I can hover and land pretty well on my very first flight but he credited that to 10,000+ logged hrs of my fixed wing aircraft time (hell no!). Although R22 was a lot more sensitive than heavier chopper like JetRanger.
Flying flight sim surely accelerated real flight training progress. It’s a great tool. For any future pilot, I strongly recommended.
Agreed. While consumer flights sims are not approved, I sometimes wonder why schools don't use tools like this for very inexpensive methods to teach, demonstrate or to let students practice lessons before flight. I also think that new generation instructors tend to be more open to tools like this for training.
@@egevolvedsimrigs The problem back in 1992 was that I have no clue of what I was doing. There was no public internet back then (no UA-cam or not even website) and I don’t know any real life pilot. So I didn’t know how to properly use pitch and power or even trim wheel. But now, a 10 years old kid can properly set up an overhead panel and start a Boeing 777 engine. Furthermore, MS FS4.0 back then was ancient compares to even a MS FS in 1995. MS FS4.0 graphics was just simple polygons and lines. But now a day, MS FS graphics is even better than a real box (Level D wide body jets full flight simulator) ten years ago. So if any future pilots would like to get serious, then I recommend you to find a correct reference on UA-cam.
That’s great, I have had a lesson and hovering is just about impossible! So difficult.
If someone can build a hover simulator, in stead of spending 40 hours in a real chopper costing a fortune ,you could learn 99% on the sim.
I am a sim pilot too. Once I was able fly in the back seat of a yak-52 (it was my first real life experince like this) and one point the pilot ask me I if I want the fly the plane. I was allowed to make a looping and a few simple manouver. At one point the pilot ask me if you use to fly a lot with sim? I was very very proud myself!
I started off in sim (DCS) and actually hovered a helicopter within 5 minutes of grabbing a real heli controls which was cool and my instructor thought I was playing a prank. I did get seat time in a huey which I was actually really comfortable with but when I started school in a R22 I just couldn't do it. That little thing scared me too much and being a tall guy 6'3 it was also kind of uncomfortable.
It doesn’t help that low hovering sets up a vortex ring around the machine. Also, though not here, low hovering over any inclined ground makes the heli slide towards down hill. Gotta respect those mountain rescue chopper pilots huh! Good fun vid👍
I hope he is able to use this experience to give sim pilots a realistic impression of hovering. Hovering is probably the hardest flying skill to learn as a heli student; even more than autorotations, in my experience. But, it would be great if a person could get a feel for the pedular action and the delay before they started actually flying.
i flew both simulator and the r44, and what would of been a better comparison if the simulator was not on a 2d monitor but in vr, makes a huge difference and closes the gap even more
I have done the r22 training too and that was exactly like my first flight course change speed change easy hover is the complicated bit you will never get from a sim.
Totally agree.
I did the same experience years ago after flying rc planes and flight sim but was not any helicopter sims that were any good back then, I loved the heli and managed the hover after some initial over correcting but it was very tricky and I had a lot of respect for my pilot who could nail the landing right on the lines even in the wind.
I had done cessna and glider experience before but the heli was by far the most fun and challenging,
cost was too much for me though to carry on past the experience, I think it would have cost about 6 years wages to get my licence and I was having a kid so no way that was going to happen.
The Robinson Death Machine. Nice.
Great Vid!
The flight simulators will absolutely help one fly the real thing, due in part to learning how everything works as a whole, because maintaining flight in a simulator by actively adjusting controls to not crash is the same application and using the same parts of the brain while maintaining flight in real life by actively adjusting controls to not crash. The difference between these two applications is the FEEL of the aircraft in real life, what your peripheral vision is able to see, the effects of vibration, wind, resistance, power maintenance, turbulence, and obstacle avoidance (ie, you can gauge how close you are to something in real life better than in a simulation)
To back my statement up, someone who flies 50 hours in a simulator and can hover a helicopter understands how the aircraft works to hover, but someone who has never flown at all, simulator or in real life, hopping in a helicopter has no knowledge of how all the controls in the helicopter works together. Their first instinct is to throw the cyclic around everywhere because everything is flying out of control. Training the brain in a simulator to use the controls physical is the same as training the brain to use the controls in real life. Same process.
I flew and fly in FS since 1985. In 2014 I paid for lessons. I could never pass the medical but that R22 was easy to fly.
Sorry to hear, but at least you have the sim world and all the various different types you can still fly.
@@egevolvedsimrigs Yes. I still fly duel instruction but I can never solo.
Awesome 🤙
Flight Simulator skill actually, can set the fundamental of how to know and use the flight control.
But for more detail about a real flight, we have to join the Flying school, because we will learn step by step,
from the ground school to a real flying exercise with the instructor, from the exercise with the instructor to a solo flight.
Anyway great content & thanks for sharing, cool 👍
Well, stay healthy for all of us & Safety First!✌😉
I recently started flying MSFS (Cowan MD500) and DCS (Huey) to re-sharpen helo skills (for 206). Built the DIY737Sim guy's collective and cyclic, made some new pedals out of a set of crashed Jetranger pedals. In VR it is insanely good. Get a butt kicker and I'd call it training quality.
We are using the Virpil Controls, which is really amazing. I guess force feedback gear would have been even better. Just having a seating position in a sim rig, with the collective in a realistic position, combined provides quite a realistic experience. It is very different from my MS Force Feedback 2 Joystick that I used to use with a twist for the rudder and throttle lever for the collective.
Yep. Force feedback gear (at least the way force feedback is modeled in a lot of the stuff I played with years ago) wouldn't be as helpful as just a stick that allows you to recenter with force trim and beep trim. The control forces in helicopters with hydraulics (at least the ones I'm familiar with) are created with force gradient units. Your hands just tell the servos what to do. When you hit the force trim button it magnetically unlocks the force gradient units so that the stick gets super light and uniform in control pressure until you release the button or turn force trim switch back on. You're doing great though! Way ahead of the curve vs someone who didn't sim. The more you fly, you'll find that your hands become transparent to the process. It is like running an excavator, playing piano, or any other coordination type thing. The more you do it, the more you're training your hands and feet to give you what you asked for. Eventually flying the helicopter isn't much harder than reaching out and picking something off a table with your own hand.
I heard you mention "finding the position that just works" or something to that effect. That bit doesn't really happen in a hover. Because of constantly changing environmental variables, even on a calm day, you will constantly have to make small adjustments. The ah-ha moment comes when you don't have to think about the relationships anymore. That just comes with time doing it. Even though modern helicopters have very good control mixing, no matter what you do, any change in one control requires a simultaneous changes to the other 2. When we start off, even though we may know what we're doing, those changes will be disconnected from one another. You'll add collective, catch the torque with the pedals, then catch the pitch and roll change with the cyclic (or some version of that). As you fly more, the changes will happen closer and closer to one another until eventually you're doing all 3 at the same time without even thinking about it. It also starts over more/less when you change models of helicopter. As the Z axis relationship between center of gravity and tail rotor changes, you'll find that torque changes create more or less roll. Likewise as the rotor mast gets shorter, you'll find that collective changes mess with the pitch more. I don't know any other way to master those relationships but practice though.
Once simple control of the bird is second nature, workload, dealing with the radios more, avionics, focusing on workflow and instrument scanning, all that stuff starts to kick in and flying gets more complex. Simulators really shine on preparing you for that part if the model's avionics are accurate.
The things sims do a poor job of replicating are LTE (at least so far as I've seen) and ground resonance. The flight manuals will generally cover crosswind component and direction for a specific bird but even more than that, it is something you should always be prepared for when out of ETL (So hovering, taxiing, etc.) The only ways out are to give a whole lot of pedal or to fly out of it and get into ETL again (Which is scary as hell). To get out of ground resonance you have to pick the helicopter up again and pretty quickly. Hopefully your instructor has already gone over them but if not, there is never a point in flight training too early to go over and practice recovery procedures for loss of tailrotor effectiveness, ground resonance, and vortex ring state.
@hstambaugh your reply is very insightful and well explained. I think to the rest of the audience, a huge amount to learn from as well. Thanks for that. It is constructive and very well explained. Love it!
Ok, so this is where I am at with this. The plan is to spend more time on the typical hppl training syllabus and get the same ground training, with more practicing on the sim. Then, to do a follow-up real flight to compare the progress and effectiveness of training on the sim, instead of the real thing.
My aim with this experiment is really to provide a more affordable way of allowing aspirational helicopter pilots to train on their own sims in a structured way before they take on real training. Flight training is really expensive and using tools like this that can assist with achieving what you described with mastering the three controls in harmony without thinking about it, more time can be spend on more advanced parts of the training much sooner.
Whether or not you want to become a real helicopter pilot, I think even flight simmers would like to make their flight sim experience as real as they can. Doing it as realistic as sim software can make it.
Lastly, I am not trying to proof that with sim experience you can just get in and fly a helicopter or any other aircraft for that matter, rather that 80% or so of what you learn in a sim, can be of benefit and applicable in real life. The rest of the 20% will have to be taught through real-life experience, which includes factors like loss of tail rotor effect and others that you have mentioned.
@@egevolvedsimrigs I really love where you're going with that. By showing the benefits in this format, you're definitely going to encourage more rotor pilots to take simulation as seriously as light GA fixed wing pilots have for years now. I believe there will also be huge value in the fact that most of us just can't afford a rapid training tempo at $600-$1500 an hour depending on what we're going for. Simulation training with good quality controls between real flights will keep skills sharp (and even sharpen fresh ones). I'd be surprised if some CFIs aren't already putting together sim training plan "homework" for students who have the gear.
VR is probably the big one next to controls. Being able to look around like normal makes everything so much easier. I was always fairly proficient at spot hovering but on screens it was an oscillating nightmare. Going to VR made it as easy as it should be. Adding the buttkicker brings the vibrations and other little touches in. TBH I'm not saying it 100% but I suspect that someone with good sim gear could most likely safely land a helicopter in a pilot incapacitation as long as they did a skid landing instead of trying to hover and the pilot didn't jam the controls or get the helo into an upset attitude.
Can't wait to see where all this goes.
Sim time can prepare you for actual flight but it's nothing like the real thing. Sim time can be beneficial to a pilot in training. Sim time is especially beneficial for experimental test pilots in a manufacturing environment when the aircraft you are flying in the sim hasn't been built yet.
If you found the hover required finer / greater resolution of input, what do you think is the issue with the sim rig? I guess I see four options:
- Simulation software inaccuracy
- Lack of resolution in input device
- Additional feedback from inertia received in the real world
- Some combination of the above
I'd be really interested to understand your perspective :)
The controls on the sim rig is very light. Almost no force required. And the movement on the rig is pretty much the same small movement as with the real thing, but the force required is much more in the real thing. While the R44 had hydraulics and the R22 not, I will need to spend more time in the R44, to get that balance of force and movement right. The muscle memory is there, just the amount of force needed that will have to be practiced.
I was given a flight lesson as a birthday present. My first real flight. The Instructor said I see you’ve had lessons before. I said no. Then he said ahh, you must play flight sims! He was right.
I've got more than 2,000 hours of pilot-in-command time in a helicopter. I don't know if I could fly that squirrelly thing, especially given the way the cyclic is designed. I've always had a cyclic mounted to the floor as a standard "stick". That crazy yoke looking thing would drive me nuts, most definitely in combination with the collective.
Would be curious to know if Andries had any VR time in DCS with that rig. I find a 2D sim just doesn't develop the sense of a sight picture required for flying VFR approaches, however DCS with helicopters in VR is fantastic. Every sim is going to have its own oddities vs. reality, but the DCS one is pretty decent in most circumstances.
I have never had any VR experience during hours and hours of flying choppers and many other kind of aircraft in sims. I agree, I suppose VR would definitely make a huge difference. Been doing flight sims for over 33 years and so used to a single monitor setup. While I have done thousands of hours in chopper sims over the years, having a chopper rig with the Virpil controls only for the last few months, forced me to learn and instill a very different muscle memory. I am still learning every day flying my chopper sim setup.
VR in DCS makes me want to vomit... I cannot get on with it.
I'll happily stay with TrackIR and my RL Robinson R22
Knowing the controls goes a long way, but you still have to be able to translate the physical to it when you really fly.
You'll never get the input from feeling everything and you'll never get your sim controls to feel the same with the same feedback. If you use a sim as a training tool following all the practices and procedures all the way down to using checklists and making radio calls, it is an excellent tool. It at least takes some of the stress and workload of having to learn every detail while paying big bucks when that rotor is turning. Anything you can do to reduce that time helps. Just try not to form bad habits so using it in conjunction with actual training is important.
I like sims for getting used to some of the busy work with navigating and a few procedural things, but from an actual flying perspective, it was still more finessing a game rather than real flying feedback.
Agreed, but with VR and perhaps 6DOF motion, you should be able to unleash some of that "real flying" feel
I have a question about the simulator rigs--why aren't they geared towards VR? It seems like VR is the best option for vehicular simulator immersion in 2023.
Anyone else love the way someone with an accent pronounces helicoper?
love it! a sim aint the same as the real thing but close to it
Good one!
I wish I could try do this as well, but sadly not in a postion to do so, I must have 500+ hours in DCS and MSFS helicopter over the passed 3 years alone, and I used to fly helicopters as far back as 1998 on my computer, always been hooked on helicopters! But 30 - 1 hour cost more than I can cough up... xD
I fly with a Warthog throttle and a X55 Rhino stick, saitek pedals, and it works very well, Track IR 5 to enable me to look around, I'm inlove with the Mi8 in DCS...
I flew the Bell 47 around Tasmania when it came out for MSFS as a third party addon, 30 hours over a weekend, I racked up 150 hours in that helicopter alone I believe.
Later they came out with the Bell 206, I did not expect to love that thing as much as I did, it was much more fun and sporty than I expected, wonderful machine, and they got their own custom flightmodel and its very impressive.
A simulator teaches you exactly what the controls do, but when you sit in the helicopter and the seat suddenly starts to move around, that is when you start to REALLY learn.
Agree, the realization that you can die becomes real
That is why I believe using sims give a false sense of security...it should never be used to cut hours of real practical training...never...as an aid, yes, maybe, but never as a substitute or alternative....
Interesting. I built my own helicopter controls, and I wondered if flying in VR would help in real life
Come live in Australia I will take the course. Dam now, I will have to run out and buy a Sim. WOP WOP WOP WOP WOP
I captained a 777 transatlantic flight for my 8th birthday! I had to sit on a pillow to see out the windows!
The Robertson helicopter is a death trap.
Very interesting thanks
7:53 yeah, I bet he found hovering difficult after only 50 hours in the sim.
I have about 200 hours in the huey and still sometimes mess up VRS and landing.
It requires practice.
It took me about 20 hours in the R22 before I could hold a stable hover. Much easier in the 44 due to the added weight.
I think I had it easy 😎
When Tamryn is in control, then you're in safe hands
She couldn't help turning it into a sales pitch ey.
I did the same thing here in Australia with the same results in a Bell 47. Awsom experience
Great, love it!
I'm keen to hear what flying the real machine will teach you and be applied to your sim
In my opinion, 80% of the coordination and muscle memory can be trained on a good sim rig setup. The rest will have to be trained in the real thing. While you still have to do your minimum hours for the PPL, I can see how this can fast track your first solo, allowing you to focus on more advanced flying skills for instance
@@egevolvedsimrigs Indeed. When I was learning to fly (fixed wing), I often had training gaps while working overseas. I always had a sim with me, which really helped to build the muscle memory and particularly the circuit routine, pre landing checks etc. A few times my instructor asked me if I had been going elsewhere for flight lessons! Anything that is heavily process driven can benefit from a good sim, as long as it's used properly, to move much of the routine into your subconscious mind so you can focus on - as you say - the more complex elements.
It certainly helped me stay calm and ahead of the curve on emergency procedures having done so many on the sim. Once I even needed to do so while soloing and it certainly saved my life. I managed to remain calm and contain my nervous response until after I recovered the spin and safely landed the plane. Phew!!
Cheers and thanks for a great vid - from Sydney, Dave
@@egevolvedsimrigs I'm solo already - but travel a huge amount, and want to keep my eye and skills in, so keen to consider the sim option for home
@@kayeman001 awesome! Happy to help where I can. I see you are in PE.
I'm there regularly for Ironman@@egevolvedsimrigs
as a flight sim player getting a pilots license irl was easy but I had developed some bad habits. In a helicopter I would rather go in with out ever having touched a helicopter in flight sim. An airplane is much more forgiving than a Helicopter.
They can once, best last on bucket list. :-)
Interesting video. I don’t abide by people calling BS. While DCS doesn’t have the most accurate flight Physics models, X-Plane is better, and one can absolutely nail the muscle memory and 3D spatial orientation that normally takes several fam flights to acquire.
Which control hardware were you using in your sim?
We are using the Virpil T 50 cm3 cyclic base and their collective Rotor TCS base with WarBRD Rudder pedals
As a pilot I always admired flight instructors having to deal with beginner pilots. Particularly stressful on short finals for landing.
For helicopter instructors ... Wow, every moment of the flight is short finals.
Of course I know nothing about rotary wing.
True, you have to force it to fly
He's a long way from being able to hoover. Forget about that simulator helping with that.
I fly helicopters in xplane11 but do not have any pedals. Having pedals would set you up nicely for the real thing.
if you have the cyclic, collective and rudders positioned as with the real thing, even the level of enjoyment of sim flying becomes next-level.
When you upgrade to a true HOTAS..The first thing will do after having a twist grip rudder is...
You will twist and yank that stick off your desk for a few weeks.
Whats worse is... You'll do again and again and again.
Muscle memory is a pain.
If you calibrate your heli sim to be more aligned with real heli inputs - outputs you will create a product that might be used by those schools?
I think it can be calibrated well, but to have an approved training tool might be a challenge with our local SACAA. No doubt it could be great training aid.
To add, the initial plan to go do the intro flight was just to see how the calibration of the sim, relates to the real thing. Overnight the whole thing evolved into a shoot and the rest is history. It was never intended to be a video such as what we now have. I am going to post more of the actual flying that day, a shorter video, plus would like to do a follow-up of another flight and video, post some real ground school sessions with practice on the sim.
@@egevolvedsimrigs If this can evolve into a commercial opportunity in colab with an entity that can assist with overcoming SACAA red tape... I see huge potential.
Howdy!
The main problem how to take off and landing as well
I think horizontal flight very simple in heli
Maneuver different from fixed wing of couse
Have a good day!
Bye
hopefully you tried simming in vr as well:)
I am a glider pilot instructor, AND I can see if a newby has done sim work. He or she has a swift start in general.
Also done thousands of hours on Condor Soaring Simulator and used it mainly to learn and practice not just cross country flying, but racing in multiplayer servers.
Robert Mason - Chickenhawk.
Don’t forget Low Level Hell. 😊
i dont have to see this video to tell you YES they can. airlines use oversized flight simulators that are just running microsoft flight simulator.
Sounds to me that he knew how to fly, but just needs more hours for his hands and reactions to fine tune to the actual input response lag of the real thing
I can tell you without question sim flying does not equate to real world flying. Even full motion simulators lack a crucial element, consequences of failure. You can learn how to move the controls but there is a different feeling when you are actually off the ground and your existence depends on your ability to execute the mission. I've been a pilot for almost 50 years and an avid sim pilot.
I'm very interested to know the cost of your sim? and which aircraft can it simulate?
He was flying DCS (Digital Combat Simulator) flying the UH-1 its an free off the shelf combat sim you would have to buy the UH-1 Module. the sim rig on the other hand WAY more expensive. even my home setup was several 1000 US.
right now DCS sims the Gazelle, the UH-1, Hind, Magnificent 8, Apache and a few others.
In my opinion the DCS UH-1 and Gazelle offers the best chopper flight physics. Imagine we can have those kind of physics in MSFS today.
Gazelle, my favourite machine in the world@@CVSiN
@@egevolvedsimrigs I have stick time on a 500E, 206, EC-130 - solo on R22 and R44 - but Covid ruined me finishing my HPPL, due to school closing, but also destroying my savings - keen to keep my hand in with a decent sim
i suppose this is like a race simulator expert going to be a race car driver. there are things that ar not in simulator programs that you can only experience by doing it for real (effect of g-forces on your body, elevation changes for example)
so where can we get a flight sim
They’re called helicopters. Choppers have 2 wheels and are normally grounded
Alright, I have changed the title and description.
I've flown gas rc heli for decades and thought I would fly real helis like piece of cake. I got the hang of it over time but those tail gyros do not exist on the real thing and its a lot to manage.
*_"but the hovering work is something That really will require some more work"_*
Said *_EVERYONE_* that has ever *_ATTEMPTED TO FLY OR HAS LEARNED TO FLY HELICOPTERS!!!_*
Why didn’t you film any of the actual lesson from inside the cockpit?
We did, but was not included in the production, since we wanted to keep it short. We will post part 2, with more of the actual flying later. Also planning on doing a second flight, since I have now clocked 3.6 hours on the R44, so see how that goes.
I have 13 years experience with mortal combat so I’ve applied for a spot in the UFC. Let see if all those simulations pay off👍
Isn't the Robinson banned in some countries for being inherently unsafe or difficult to fly??
Realistically anyone can fly a helicopter just fine on their first intro flight. I had zero sim experience on my first flight and it went just fine. Sims are good for ifr training but that's about it.
La respuesta es SI!!! y sobre todo si vuelas en RV.
Y si a la ecuacion añades una plataforma 6DOF........ se ahorrarian muchas horas de vuelo luchando contra la "bestia".
Coste mas menos total para una aero escuela....30000????
6DOF would most like cause my wife to leave me, because I will never leave my rig again 🤣
Mi esposa opina lo mismo!!!!🤣🤣🤣@@egevolvedsimrigs