The funny thing is that it’s not just Peloponnese war , there were literally hundreds of wars between Greeks. Literally Greeks for nearly 1000 years fought the romans 2-3 times , the Persians 3-4 times , Gauls 1-2 times , Illyrians 2-3 and spend the rest 900 wars with each other
There were no Greeks back then, because there was no Greece yet. That's why they fought each other so many times. They didn't consider themselves as one nation nor the same people. Cheers!
@@7HillsTownthey did since war with Persia. Learn history a bit. The other question is that even tho the saw each other as Greeks, the were more loyal to their city than nation in general. That’s unbelievably usual for all city-states all around the world. Look at late medieval Italy
@@7HillsTown They were a similiar people or something similiar to what South America is. Same language/culture/religion/language ect. But they still wanted to be on top.
Yea that point about Alexander the Great attacking other Greek states makes no sense given that all the Greek city states were constantly at war with each other during Alexander’s time
Iirc there was literally fighting between the Greek city's during the Macedonian invasion, they only stopped fighting when they realized they were about to get their asses kicked
that isnt a good point either lol youre confusing the roman meaning of barbaric with the greek one witch actually meant uncivilised cause every other citystate was a democracy while macedon had a king
Damn it's almost as if all these states went to war because they all thought themselves distinct from each other and never even considered being a one nation until 1821
@@jaxionmaxomus4315Normans had the french culture and were speaking French yet William the great is still considered Norman not French. Even when William literally invaded England and forced them speak French for centuries it was still considered a Norman territory.
@@jaxionmaxomus4315 quebec have American culture not French culture. They literally are on the American continent since centuries. Whereas Norman/Normandy is literally the region just near the Parisian region I literally can go there by train it's like a thousand kilometres away from my home. Culturally quebec is like a French speaking usa to me.
When Alexander beat Darius at the battle of Granicus he had had sent to Athens a bunch of armors with s sign that said " Alexander the son of Philip and the other Greeks except the Lacaidemlnians" he didn't make a distinction between Macedonians and the rest Greeks.
@RaimoHöft well it was like USA and Russia Today , so u see USA builded whole Nato and nobody likes really Russia that's a network system same thing happened with Athens back then a whole alliance against them that's why
Just a minor note: Darius was not present at the Battle of the Granicus, he only started leading the futile charge against Alexander after that battle. But the main point stands. Also, for those not familiar with the term, you can basically replace “Lacaideminians” with “Spartans” to understand who is getting slighted.
At least Alexander the Great was a real guy. Balkan nationalist arguments can get really weird with stuff that doesn’t exist like that supposed Bosnian pyramid that’s just a mountain
Pyramids were made by higher Bosnian beings!!! Bosnia was most developed Balkan back then!!!! Why?? Because Bosnia best country!!!!🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️Slava Bosni!!!!!! 🇧🇦🗣️🇧🇦🔥🔥🗣️🔥🇧🇦🔥🇧🇦🔥🗣️
Forgot to mention that Athens and Sparta literally hated their guts and went to war numerous times, but they were still all Greeks. Saying that Macedonia wasn't Greek because it went to war with other Greek states is like saying that Russia isn't Slavic because it has gone to war with Poland and Ukraine which are Slavic nations
@vixelscoffeehouse That's a lie and you made it up. Strabo says the Macedonians are Greeks. So does Thucydides and Dio Cassius. All of the Greek historians agreed that the Macedonians were Greek, so did the Greek philosophers and the Hellanodikai, the judges of Greekness, who were tasked with limiting access to the Olympic Games for non Greeks, restricting them only to Hellenic people. The Macedonians participated normally
To be fair the whole debate is pointless since they were neither. Nationalism is a 18th or 19th century concept. Neither modern Greece nor Macedonia existed and were for a long time under Ottoman rule. The ancient people were more organized as a tribe than what we today know as nation states. Quite a lot of countries speak english today and follow the same religion, but they are still separate countries. Culturally and religiously modern Greeks and Macedonian slavs are far more similar to each other than either of them to any ancient people. The truth is history should be explored, shared and celebrated. Making history exclusive is impossible any way since even if you are right which can be hard to prove the other side will still believe in the version they prefer. It's the same thing with religion. We have like 3000+ gods and all of them are the "true" god.
@happy_thinking my friend, you have confused nationalism with the nation/ethnic group. Ethnic groups and nations have always existed. They are not a modern concept. What is relatively modern (as a dominant political ideology) is the notion that these nations or ethnic groups share enough in common that they should, or in fact that only they can, be the basis of political organization of a state. This means that Nationalism was the realization that people shouldn't have a country to serve their king, but their people, and their people were not the people living in their country, but those who belonged to the same nation as them. Nationalism is what kick-started the French Revolution, the Greek Revolution, the Hungarian Revolution, the German and Italian unifications and even decolonization. People shifted allegiances from their governments to their people and started identifying more with their people/nation rather than their tribe, clan or country. While nationalism has dominated state identity in the last few centuries, that doesn't mean that isolated nationalist outbursts haven't existed through history. The Assyrians, Macedonians (Panhellenic League), Romans and at times the Persians have been nationalist states or utilized nationalist tendencies to further their political agendas. Of course nations were a thing back then. But people were illiterate and didn't know enough about their nation (or in fact, anything outside their city) to be able to easily identify with a specific nation. The Greeks were one of the best educated, best interconnected, most technologically advanced nations, and it still took them until almost the rise of the Roman Empire to solidify their common language, customs and traditions into a shared national identity. This had already started in very old times of course. Herodotus described a nation as "the group of people with same blood, same faith, same ways (customs and traditions), same language". This is how the Greeks saw themselves even back in ancient times. And this has nothing to do with what happened thousand sof years later.
@@happy_thinking Just because they believe in a lie, that was created a few decades ago by propagandists who hate Greece, doesn't mean I have to believe the lie they made up. Obviously I cannot convince a person who won't listen to reason, it is like talking to a wall. Which is why I'm doing my best to show everyone how ridiculous the Skopian arguments are, to expose their dirty propaganda to people who have a chance of changing their mind, ie good faith individuals from third countries
@@rd_0939exactly what the other guy said. All north Macedonian history books are manipulated by the FYROM government. You could have easily figured out that the government of the country is obviously biased and not gonna say the truth.
What are they talking about. Skopjans are Slavs , they came / invaded Europe at about 7 century AC , 1000 years after the death of Alexander the Great. All Roman's, and most of the world at that time spoke Greek, so everyone is Greek? Jesus christ spoke Greek, was he Greek? There was no Macedonian language!! It was the Greek language as there was no Athenian, spartan, naxian, Eritrean, thibian ,korinthian... Language. Macedonians were north Greece, Greeks. They didn't go to wars against other Greeks but only at the start because OBVIOUSLY Athenians, Spartans... at that time wouldn't accept the Macedonians to be the (new) leaders of Greece.
The country/area (it has never been a country) was named Vardarska Banovina. Dictator Tito changed it to Macedonia, for his dreams of invading Greece , take their land and have a way to the Aegean sea with the excuse of " liberating macedonians "😅
Thank you brother. If it wasn’t for the name you chose for your country, we would be brothers. We share the same religion. I wish you health and peace.
@@KougarManx468I am also from Macedonia and I accept the fact that he was greek. We are slavs that populated the Macedonian region and adopted the name. I am proud of my Macedonian Slavic history.
As a Turk, I'm with the Greeks on this one. Sure N. Macedonia is a great country with great people, but yeah Ancient Macedonia has been culturally Greek mixed in with Illyrian and Thracian elements
Plus, the dynasty ruling Macedonia was the Argead dynasty. They were from Argos in southern Greece. Even if Macedonians were Africans or aliens, Alexander the great was ethnically and genetically Greek.
As another turk Im in between. Fact of the matter is nation states are new, macedonia of old was surely not identified with modern ethnic greek sense. They did spoke macedonian language and was not included to 4 “ethnicity” of hellenes/achaeans. Its pretty natural macedonians sees themselves as macedonian as they are the state founded on said “macedonian” land and its people still carry said illyrian, thracian and greek mixed elements along with others. Much like the name “prussian”. Original prussians was slavs, yet germans mixed with them and prussia used as a geographical name.
Fun fact: some people in early 20th century Europe had the bright idea to make Macedonia its own kingdom during the Balkan Wars, headed by a Danish king, that would be a mix of North Macedonian, Bulgarian, Serbian, and Greek in its culture and languages. Basically a Switzerland of the Balkans
But bro, there’s no Macedonian language. It’s literally Bulgarian mixed with Serbian and some Albanian. It’s like saying there’s a Californian language if that makes sense
We Greeks do not believe in the "region of Macedonia", as it is an ideological myth created by Bulgarian nationalists. For us, Macedonia ends where the Greek borders are
@@Stef77777some albanian? the whole albanian language has loan words from latin and slavic, the only albanian element in the albanian language is the pronunciation.
Alexander spoke Greek, promoted Greek culture, was educated by the philosopher Aristotle (a central figure in Greek intellectual history)... and more. Also, the Argead dynasty (the founding dynasty of the Kingdom of Macedonia) as described in ancient Greek historiography, traced their origins to Argos of Peloponnese in Southern Greece. So, Alexander The Great, being the son of Philip II, was a direct descendant of the Argead kings and hence a Greek ruler.
Just because the ruler or ruling class of a place are of one ethnicity that doesn't necessarily mean that all the inhabitants of that place are of that ethnicity (the Frank's in France or the Normans in England). Also it is very common in history for the rulers of one polity to adopt the culture of a neighbouring region/country. Just look at Persian culture that was adopted by basically every court of the regions around it. Btw I also think they were Greeks or at least closely related to them, I just criticize your arguments.
There was actually an earlier Macedonian king named Alexander who was almost snubbed out of the Olympics for not being Greek, but he pulled out the bloodline records to prove it.
@@moderndemon84 Lmao Alexander was though it’s well documented and common knowledge, and I have no issue with it. I was just quoting that one African dude. Calm down.
I mean honestly arguing over whether Macedonians were really Greek or not seems pretty irrelevant compared to the fact North Macedonia barely has any of the land of ancient Macedonia compared to Greece so calling it Macedonia feels absurd
Let's debunk the skopian claims. 1st Royal family of ancient Macedonia claimed to be related with perdikas and Hercules the greek semi-god. 2nd the macedonians were allowed to participate in the Olympic games that only greeks could do. 3rd Their names mean something in greek language philippos(fond of horses) Alexander (the one that repels the men),there was no such thing as macedonian language.i hope that helps
to be exact, there was a macedonian language but it was not a slavic language, it was a hellenic language related to greek and had nothing to do with the slavic language spoken there now
There is no debate. Macedonians were greeks, spoke ONLY greek. Worshipped greek gods. They were in the olympics. Only greeks were allowed. Greeks cities and kingdoms always fought each other. Alexander did not speak persian. He spoke greek. His native tongue. And Philip (after dominating over the rest of Greece) named the Alliance "the Hellenic League"
I agree. But we should also see that Modern Macedonia is not the same as Ancient Macedonia. Modern Macedonia is much more closer to Bulgaria in terms of culture and language than Greece. With the only real similarity with Old Macedonia being the name and general location.
@ibraheemshuaib8954 there is still Macedonia in Greece. It is an administrative and geographic unit with a population of 2.4 million people. Macedonia is the current heir to the ancient Macedonian heritage. North Macedonia is a Slavic state, culturally Bulgarian
Not true, there was the original Macidonia that was taken over by Greeks. Alexander's army consisted of Greek speakers and Macodonians speakers. That's why the empire is called the Greoco Macedonian
@@ibraheemshuaib8954 mordern macedonia is stll greek, some parts of macedonia are located in "north macedonia" & in Bulgaria, but the majority, around 80% is located in the greek region of macedonia.
After Alexander's dad beat up on a bunch of Greek city states he forced them to join the Hellenic (Greek) League. In other words he went to war with the Greeks to unite the Greeks under his rule.
Just the case is Macedonia was never city-state and it was totally different adninistrated from beginning. So yes in that time they were distinct from other Greeks and that's why Demosten was calling them barbarians in his wars against them.
"A significant event in Alexander's life was his participation in the Olympic Games, which occurred around 496 BCE. Initially, he was about to be excluded by the other participants, since the games were reserved only to Greeks, who considered the Macedonians 'barbarians'. Alexander, however, proved that his dynasty originated from Temenus, the ancient king of Argos believed to be a direct descendant of the legendary Greek hero Hercules, and was therefore allowed to take part in the Olympics."
Ironically during the classical period Macedonians were the ones insisting they were Greek and Greeks were the ones that said they were barbarians. How times change lol
The Macedonians still exist, btw, in Macedonia, the northern region of Greece. But yeah you are right. Back then the southern Greek city states were elitists
Ironically that’s what every other greek city said about their biggest political enemy city if their time 😊. The athenians called Spartans , barbarians and the Spartans called the athenians such. As if… you want to downplay your rival in front of other greeks and gain their support 😮
Greeks didnt' insist they werne't Greeks. Macedonains competed as Greek during panHellenic sporting events like the Olympics for centuries. What some foreigners do is context of rhetoric of Greeks insulting other Greeks as non-Greeks as an insult (sort of like some politician in America today calling another one unamerican but along ethnic lines). It was during times of conflict between Greek city states or kingdoms. In the case of Demonsthenes it was because of conflict betwem Athens and Macedonia.
@@mydogsbutler Now hold up there, the Macedonians did not compete in the Olympics! They weren't allowed since they weren't considered Greek, however the royal family of Macedon was originally from Argos (hence why they are called the Argeads) and thus Greek. The Royal Family were allowed to send athletes to represent themselves, and not Macedon to the Olympic Games.
It was one of the more distinct areas. It would be more similar to saying Crete isn't greek. Which is also a whole thing as Minoan history is unique as well. Sparta, Corinth and Athens form the core of the ancient Greek region, everything else is more. Complicated
@@MrPbhuh He was reffering to the statement that macedonia went to war with other greek states. Every greek state did that to eachother tho? Like, Sparta and Athens were archnemesis to eachother, does that mean Sparta isnt greece?
@ognjenkuzeljevic1989 each Greek polis has a rather unique history. According to the Spartans they aren't Greeks actually, they considered themselves invaders who enslaved a Greek people.
Macedonians at that time period didn't consider themselves to be greek. Whereas athens and spartans albeit sworn enemies, have always considered themselves greek first, city second.
As a Macedonian (The real one, not the slavic), I'm tired of this debate. If someone has been taught something from childhood, even the whole world won't be able to change their mind.
Alexander the Great was Greek. His hometown is Pella which is in Greece. He named Thessaloniki after his sister Niki. Most of modern day Turkey is Greece. Alexandria in Egypt is Greece. Most of the nations surrounding Greece in the modern world are mostly influenced by Ancient Greece and the Byzantine Empire. This gonna offend a lot of people, but Greece’s history has impacted the world almost as much as the Latin Romans and recent colonial powers. All American government buildings look like Ancient Greek structures for a reason, as it was once the cradle of democracy.
It's not supposed to be calm, Skopians are literally demanding that entire chunks of Greece ought to be given to them and go out protesting about it. Imagine if some random blokes who were fed fairytales from ww2 for generations claim that one of your biggest figures had nothing to do with your country and then demand a chunk of your own country and history just cause they feel entitled to it. Same things been happening with Turkey trying to claim all the islands and Cyprus, same with other neighboring Northern countries who feel entitled to other chunks of Greek land. If one is gonna go with that stupid mentality then Greece once owned nearly everything all the way to India, does that mean they can come out tomorrow and demand half the world?
Similar issue here in South Asia. Internationally, Pakistan claims the legacy of the Indus Valley Civilization for itself, while at home, its history textbooks completely omits the pre-Islamic & non-Islamic polities of the country following its policy of Islamisation. The Tangail district of Bangladesh is the origin of a unique type of cotton sarees (called Tangail sarees). Hindu weavers from Tangail fleeing religious persecution brough the art of manufacturing Tangail sarees with them in India, while Muslim weavers continued to practice it at the same place. So when India alloted GI tag for Tangail sarees, Bangladesh was not happy, citing how could India claim a product which didn't originate in their land. And a few years ago, Nepal entered into a beef with India over the nationality of the Buddha.
Modern day people in Pakistan were most likely the closest to the people who lived their during the indus valley period. Just because someone chooses to convert to a different religion, doesn't mean their ethnicity changes. India was never 1 nation aswell, it was only fully united in 1947. Suggesting "Pakistan is historically a part of India" is stupid and makes 0 sense as India has never existed. Indian subcontinent was filled with various Kingdoms, some were so far apart they were as foreign as the Turks and Afgans who later invaded. A punjab back then would probably be more accustomed to seeing Turks, Arabs, Persians and Pashtuns than he would a Bengali, Tamil etc
That name is important however the real reason why the argument happens is that the Skopians also demand a large chunk of Greece that claim it was their own since the dawn of time, same thing as Albania and Turkey and most neighboors to Greece do. Its like if Canada wanted the entirety of North US and Mexico demanded the entirety of South US and also claim that the political figure had always been hardcore mexicans since forever (which sound as stupid as the Skopian claim is, since mexicans are a by product of the Spanish much like the Skopians are a byproduct of the slavs and Titos strategies to break them apart and give them a different identity to have them not join Bulgaria against him)
Alexandros the first (grandfather of Alexandros the Great) was met by Persians, prior to the Persian invasion in Greece, at Makedonia. The king was Amintas who was Alexandros the first's dad. The son of the king (Alexandros the first), introduced himself as this: I am a Greek man, second ruler of Makedonia. The sources is Herodotus on his 5th of total 9 books. End of story.
Tbh the Greeks are 100% right there, but I'm glad that North Macedonia found a name that is both representative of a past (of which they did not partake) and is respectful of history, whilst being a real name, not the travesty that was AFKAP ... I mean FYROM.
mot 100% in the righ. True Macedonian elite was mostly Hellenized BUT not completely. Even Alexander the great enjoyed hunting. Something Greeks saw as savage. Mot some modern Macedonian claims to the ancient Macedonian culture would be like Croats claiming Illirian heritage
The name West Bulgaria is their real name as they are Bulgarian descent. To call this entire country North Macedonia is obsurd as they only occupy a small strip of land that belonged to Ancient Macedon.
@@kerrypapadopoulos8937 well the geographical region the country is located is CALLED MACEDONIA! it has been for centuries! The fact All kind of iredentist are too stupid to let people who live there decide for themselves is a different matter entirely
We are even more than cousins. We are brothers! But the problem rises when bulgaria claims that we are the same people. WE ARE VERY CLOSE BUT NOT THE SAME!!!
Actually, Alexander the Great was from Florida, and he also spoke Spanish. He only did the Greek thing a couple times when he was young, really he was just experimenting
You forgot that slavs conquered everything down to athens and they were speaking it in aegean macedonian. And the slavs didnt have a official language nor could they write so the macedonian kiril and method and later their scholars clement and naum created the Cyrillic alphabet in macedonian regions
@KaranosMK2 You're brainwashed by Tito my brother, like it or not Alexander the Great which is a greek name coming from "Alex" which means the one that sends aways and "andros" men, so it literally has a meaning in Greek from it's grammar.
Yes, but Greek city states spoke the same language, had the same religion and called themselves Hellenes and at that time only Hellenes could participate in the Olympics. And guess what. Macedonians participated in the Olympics. History is literally there and anyone can read it. It’s common sense.
@@Stef77777That still doesn't make him greek. You could say the same about the many British colonies, they all speak english, many share the same religion and they participate in events. They are still separate countries. Greece is a 19th century country. Greek was the common tongue for that period. As he said in those times it was about tribes nobody even had any idea about nations states. Even Alexanders empire had tons of different ethnicities and religions.
@@Stef77777The Olympic Games are really the clincher for me. As you say, only Hellenes (at least until Roman rule) could participate and Macedon athletes frequently took part
The closest living relatives to the Ancient Macedonians today would be the Tsakonians, who are Doric-speaking, much like the language attested in the capital of Pella.
This feels like how Italians in the renaissance spoke to the byzantines. Basically the Italians during the renaissance were all about connecting back to their roots, aka pagan Rome, however at the same time existed the Byzantines, Christian Roman’s who have never lost touch with who they were. Leading to new titles and these Roman’s being called Byzantine’s.
This is not the same. "North Macedonians" don't descend from the Ancient Macedonians at all, they're descended from the Slavic populations that came way after that. Their culture, language, writing system, ethnicity, cities, etc, revolve around Bulgarians and Slavs, why would this is even a debate?
@ I kinda just meant the vibe of the argument. I don’t know about the argument in the video, but it just reminded me of the Byzantines and Italians. Didn’t mean to ruffle feathers dude, just wanted to make a comment
@@ACIDJAZZZZ No problem, I didn't intend to reply rude to you or anything, it's just that I feel that West Bulgarians ("North Macedonians") live in constant denial of their origin.
Funny you say that when Greeks now since 1800s are in touch with their ancient roots of Alexander and Socrates instead of their Byzantine identity before. Changing from Romioi to Hellenes
@@Diegosarmiiwhile they have Slavic influence you can’t deny north Macedonians will have Hellenic ancestry, that’s part of what makes the north Macedonian identity
Greek city states fighting each other is like... 90% of classical greek history... Even when they were fighting the Persians they were fighting other greek city states.
As i recall Alexander had the biggest empire at the time and Phillip the second his father defeated the greeks in his time. They were 2 separate groups, and people are still debating. Who can prove right?
Alexander the first had to prove his Hellenic identity to be able to participate in the Olympics and he did so through his familial heritage to Hercules. It also weird how modern Macedonia or North Macedonia is not geographically centered around the ancient capital at Pella or the burial grounds at Vergina .
There are two funny pictures that often get posted in regards to North Macedonia. First one is countries color coded by whether Alexander was Greek or North Macedonian, according to their Wikipedia page. In it, everyone except North Macedonia views him as Greek. There is a similar one with Goce Delchev, where every exept North Macedonia views him as Bulgarian. Thats all you need to know about that country"s historical claims 😂
Ancient Macendonians might not have been exactly the same as the other greeks but they were clearly close enough to be Hellenistic and be allowed to participate in the Olympics.
What other Greeks? Were the Greeks of Sicily the same as the Greeks of Cyprus or the Greeks of Pontus with the Greeks of Massalia in southern France? Macedonia and Epirus were northern hellenic people...they weren't different in their hellenic ancestry but in the initial cultural reality and dialects of their regions. That's all nuances in reality.....We just see them as different because the 99% of the ancient greek views we have are from Athens alone......not from anyone else. Is like today we live in a world that the views of Western Europeans are very much the 99% of the views people have about Europe in general.
I actually really like the body checks of this fight. My only issue (and I must stress only because this is my favorite content in the whole game) with the fight design is the lack of recoverability after swaps. It takes too long to teleport in and there is no 'intended' way to teleport from the middle out. After the swaps, if things are messed up, you're just praying you can live through the missed towers. By making the teleports from the outside happen faster and allowing some path from the inside to the outside would help alleviate this issue of irrecoverability after swaps.
I love how most of the comments are basically: "the complexity of 2000+ years of intervening history is too difficult to deal with so I'll just ignore it."
Alexander proclaimed himself, aswell as his armies, to be greek. Greek cities fought eachother all the time but it didnt make them any less greek. Also, Alexander speaking a regional languange(macedonian) doesnt make him any less greek, are Sicilians not italian because they have their own language?
Whoever says Alexander isn’t Greek hasn’t studied history at all. His name is Greek for sake. You don’t even understand what his name means in other languages. As well as his father’s name and so on. Even his horses name. Also the word Macedonian? Does any of you geniuses what it means? Guess what you can understand what it means if you speak Greek as well. I really don’t understand why would a nation try to steal someone’s else’s history. It’s disrespectful to your nation. Everyone has its own history. And to honor your ancestors it would be nice to accept yours.
At this point i will just agree with the Greeks and the Bulgarians, only the Greek Macedonians are true Greeks, the north Macedonians are confused Bulgarians and before anyone answers to that, check on a specific Bulgarian organization that operated in North Macedonia during the balcan wars and the first world war
Take one Nickel back, because, actually, Bulgarians aren't Slavs. They are originally a Turkic group . Bulgarians are Slavs as the modern Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians
According to your logic the Athenians, the Spartans, the Thespians etc were not greek, because they were fighting each other. How on earth did the slavs got mixed only with the "macedonians", yet they speak Bulgarian? You know very well that you can have a direct communication with a Bulgarian by speaking your native language. With me (a greek) we have to speak English to each other, in order to communicate. Tito created this mythology for you, in order to suppress the separatists that wanted to leave former Yougoslavia and join Bulgaria.
Fun fact: the country named Northern Macedonia is actually not located in the area where the ancient Makedones settled. They lived further south. The capital city of ancient Macedonia was Pella. Pella still exists and is located in Greece. Another fun fact: the mother of Alexander the Great was not of Makedonic origin, she was the daughter of a Greek king. So whoever claim Alexander wasn't Greek publicly displays knowing very little about him.
As a Greek I don't mind Skopje being called North Macedonia since they live in land that used to be part of ancient Macedonia what I have a problem with is when they appropriate Greek history by saying ancient Macedonians weren't Greek.
It’s funny because when Philip II and Alexander were kicking around, they were trying to argue vehemently that they were Greek, and the southern cities like Athens said they weren’t. Alexander was so insanely good at his job that now it’s the other way around.
"If he were Greek, why would he war with other Greek cities so often?"
Bro, that's like all Greek cities did.
Wow it's almost like City states back then have a completely different definition from today's sovereign countries😂
@@felar939 it's called Civil War...look it up
Fr
Yeah, the Peloponnesian war was all about that lol
Ancient Greek history is basically a constant battle of various Greeks against eachother....then stoping and having Olympic games, then back to war🤣🤣
"If he was Greek why would he attack other Greeks?"
*100 missed calls from the Pelopponesian Wars*
The funny thing is that it’s not just Peloponnese war , there were literally hundreds of wars between Greeks.
Literally Greeks for nearly 1000 years fought the romans 2-3 times , the Persians 3-4 times , Gauls 1-2 times , Illyrians 2-3 and spend the rest 900 wars with each other
There were no Greeks back then, because there was no Greece yet. That's why they fought each other so many times. They didn't consider themselves as one nation nor the same people. Cheers!
@@7HillsTownthey did since war with Persia. Learn history a bit. The other question is that even tho the saw each other as Greeks, the were more loyal to their city than nation in general. That’s unbelievably usual for all city-states all around the world. Look at late medieval Italy
@@7HillsTown They were a similiar people or something similiar to what South America is. Same language/culture/religion/language ect. But they still wanted to be on top.
All the nations then they were fighting each other Spartans with peloponesians Macedonians and etc 🤫🤡
Yea that point about Alexander the Great attacking other Greek states makes no sense given that all the Greek city states were constantly at war with each other during Alexander’s time
Iirc there was literally fighting between the Greek city's during the Macedonian invasion, they only stopped fighting when they realized they were about to get their asses kicked
Just like the Italian states when Italy was divided back in the middleages.
Yeah there’s much better arguments to be made… like say the Greeks considering the Macedonians to be barbaric before they were conquered by them
that isnt a good point either lol
youre confusing the roman meaning of barbaric with the greek one witch actually meant uncivilised
cause every other citystate was a democracy while macedon had a king
Damn it's almost as if all these states went to war because they all thought themselves distinct from each other and never even considered being a one nation until 1821
"If he were Greek, why would he go into war with other Greek cities so often?"
Dude, that is the Greekest thing ever.
It’s literally one of the few things that made them Greek
1) language ☑️
2)religion ☑️
3) rival city state ☑️
@@jaxionmaxomus4315Normans had the french culture and were speaking French yet William the great is still considered Norman not French. Even when William literally invaded England and forced them speak French for centuries it was still considered a Norman territory.
@@jaxionmaxomus4315 quebec have American culture not French culture. They literally are on the American continent since centuries. Whereas Norman/Normandy is literally the region just near the Parisian region I literally can go there by train it's like a thousand kilometres away from my home.
Culturally quebec is like a French speaking usa to me.
@ I didn’t realize which video this was from, lemme reread (I made a comment on another video calling the Norman’s and French Vikings)
@@grimjowjaggerjak point 1 is good, I agree. Be careful with point 2 the Quebecois tend to be VERY prideful.
When Alexander beat Darius at the battle of Granicus he had had sent to Athens a bunch of armors with s sign that said " Alexander the son of Philip and the other Greeks except the Lacaidemlnians" he didn't make a distinction between Macedonians and the rest Greeks.
Arrianus has written that at the first book (I think chapter 17) of Alexanders Anavasis
No one really liked the Lacedaimians... just like the Macadaimians they were a little nuts.
@RaimoHöft well it was like USA and Russia Today , so u see USA builded whole Nato and nobody likes really Russia that's a network system same thing happened with Athens back then a whole alliance against them that's why
You mean except the Lacedemonians and Demosthenes😂
Just a minor note: Darius was not present at the Battle of the Granicus, he only started leading the futile charge against Alexander after that battle. But the main point stands.
Also, for those not familiar with the term, you can basically replace “Lacaideminians” with “Spartans” to understand who is getting slighted.
At least Alexander the Great was a real guy. Balkan nationalist arguments can get really weird with stuff that doesn’t exist like that supposed Bosnian pyramid that’s just a mountain
they're the balkans stop being surprised
The Pyramids are real, Beograd on the other hand...
Pyramid can be real but it's too trippy to discuss 😂
Pyramids were made by higher Bosnian beings!!! Bosnia was most developed Balkan back then!!!! Why?? Because Bosnia best country!!!!🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️Slava Bosni!!!!!! 🇧🇦🗣️🇧🇦🔥🔥🗣️🔥🇧🇦🔥🇧🇦🔥🗣️
One day my son named octo will wake up
Compromise solution: Both Greece and (North) Macedonia should give up their sovereignty and join the empire of Brazil 🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷🇧🇷
I'll sign that petition!!! 🍺
Based
Brilliant
How would this even work lol
From berezil
Forgot to mention that Athens and Sparta literally hated their guts and went to war numerous times, but they were still all Greeks. Saying that Macedonia wasn't Greek because it went to war with other Greek states is like saying that Russia isn't Slavic because it has gone to war with Poland and Ukraine which are Slavic nations
okay but after the helenstic period greeks still didnt consider Macedonian's Greek
@vixelscoffeehouse That's a lie and you made it up. Strabo says the Macedonians are Greeks. So does Thucydides and Dio Cassius. All of the Greek historians agreed that the Macedonians were Greek, so did the Greek philosophers and the Hellanodikai, the judges of Greekness, who were tasked with limiting access to the Olympic Games for non Greeks, restricting them only to Hellenic people. The Macedonians participated normally
To be fair the whole debate is pointless since they were neither. Nationalism is a 18th or 19th century concept.
Neither modern Greece nor Macedonia existed and were for a long time under Ottoman rule.
The ancient people were more organized as a tribe than what we today know as nation states.
Quite a lot of countries speak english today and follow the same religion, but they are still separate countries.
Culturally and religiously modern Greeks and Macedonian slavs are far more similar to each other than either of them to any ancient people.
The truth is history should be explored, shared and celebrated.
Making history exclusive is impossible any way since even if you are right which can be hard to prove the other side will still believe in the version they prefer.
It's the same thing with religion. We have like 3000+ gods and all of them are the "true" god.
@happy_thinking my friend, you have confused nationalism with the nation/ethnic group. Ethnic groups and nations have always existed. They are not a modern concept. What is relatively modern (as a dominant political ideology) is the notion that these nations or ethnic groups share enough in common that they should, or in fact that only they can, be the basis of political organization of a state. This means that Nationalism was the realization that people shouldn't have a country to serve their king, but their people, and their people were not the people living in their country, but those who belonged to the same nation as them. Nationalism is what kick-started the French Revolution, the Greek Revolution, the Hungarian Revolution, the German and Italian unifications and even decolonization. People shifted allegiances from their governments to their people and started identifying more with their people/nation rather than their tribe, clan or country. While nationalism has dominated state identity in the last few centuries, that doesn't mean that isolated nationalist outbursts haven't existed through history. The Assyrians, Macedonians (Panhellenic League), Romans and at times the Persians have been nationalist states or utilized nationalist tendencies to further their political agendas. Of course nations were a thing back then. But people were illiterate and didn't know enough about their nation (or in fact, anything outside their city) to be able to easily identify with a specific nation. The Greeks were one of the best educated, best interconnected, most technologically advanced nations, and it still took them until almost the rise of the Roman Empire to solidify their common language, customs and traditions into a shared national identity. This had already started in very old times of course. Herodotus described a nation as "the group of people with same blood, same faith, same ways (customs and traditions), same language". This is how the Greeks saw themselves even back in ancient times. And this has nothing to do with what happened thousand sof years later.
@@happy_thinking Just because they believe in a lie, that was created a few decades ago by propagandists who hate Greece, doesn't mean I have to believe the lie they made up. Obviously I cannot convince a person who won't listen to reason, it is like talking to a wall. Which is why I'm doing my best to show everyone how ridiculous the Skopian arguments are, to expose their dirty propaganda to people who have a chance of changing their mind, ie good faith individuals from third countries
btw Alexander said " thanks gods for being greek and not barbarian "
It isn't even a debate . Alexander was is and will always be Hellene.
Learn history bro, macedonians weren't hellenic
@@rd_0939 Literally no history book will say otherwise unless it was written by the "North Macedonian" government
@@rd_0939exactly what the other guy said. All north Macedonian history books are manipulated by the FYROM government.
You could have easily figured out that the government of the country is obviously biased and not gonna say the truth.
What are they talking about. Skopjans are Slavs , they came / invaded Europe at about 7 century AC , 1000 years after the death of Alexander the Great. All Roman's, and most of the world at that time spoke Greek, so everyone is Greek? Jesus christ spoke Greek, was he Greek? There was no Macedonian language!! It was the Greek language as there was no Athenian, spartan, naxian, Eritrean, thibian ,korinthian... Language. Macedonians were north Greece, Greeks. They didn't go to wars against other Greeks but only at the start because OBVIOUSLY Athenians, Spartans... at that time wouldn't accept the Macedonians to be the (new) leaders of Greece.
The country/area (it has never been a country) was named Vardarska Banovina. Dictator Tito changed it to Macedonia, for his dreams of invading Greece , take their land and have a way to the Aegean sea with the excuse of " liberating macedonians "😅
Bulgaria: ”Who ever owns Macedonia I want it back”
North Macedonia and Greece: SHUT UP!!!!
Well Bulgaria has northeastern Macedonia.
It's funny how Bulgarians say that "Macedonia" Is Bulgaria and then Greek think that they claim their history 😂
@nickolaos9080well, that’s basically what North Macedonia is essentially is as a state 😅
@nickolaos9080 it’s because they used to claim it
As someone from this nation , l kinda agree with the greeks more over time .
Thank you brother. If it wasn’t for the name you chose for your country, we would be brothers. We share the same religion. I wish you health and peace.
@Stef77777 amen , may we have a long lasting peace .
How did this happen? I'm genuinely surprised. I've never seen someone from Skopia accept this
@@georgios_5342 long story short , l learnt the actual history of ancient macedon , and l kinda got an identity crisis after that as a kid .
@@KougarManx468I am also from Macedonia and I accept the fact that he was greek. We are slavs that populated the Macedonian region and adopted the name. I am proud of my Macedonian Slavic history.
As a history nerd from Scandinavia I have to go with the Greeks with this one. No doubt about it
Är du svensk?
The Greeks clearly lost the debate here
@@tenzaemtade6146 how so? Lol
Nopez the Macedonian are right in this one. They were a separate group like the Epirus.
"famous last words"
Alexander the Great was actually not part Slavic, it would be impossible since Slavs didn't invade the Balkans until they were Christianized
Sooooooo not true!! Slavic people were there long before christianity. Especially Srbs, or Sorbs as Romans called them.
@onedriver038 Sorbs are an ethnic group in Germany, Poland, and Czechia
No person except Greeks have actually made the claim that Ancient Macedonia was Slavic. It's literally a false argument that only Greeks think exists.
I just want to know where did you get this information? So that I can read it through and possibly learn something new
Slavs didn't even exist as an ethnic group in Europe until centuries after Alexander's death.
I love how this video makes it seem like both countries have a valid claim to the name macedonia when FYROM has none
As a Turk, I'm with the Greeks on this one.
Sure N. Macedonia is a great country with great people, but yeah Ancient Macedonia has been culturally Greek mixed in with Illyrian and Thracian elements
You know your history. Thanks komsu
Plus, the dynasty ruling Macedonia was the Argead dynasty. They were from Argos in southern Greece. Even if Macedonians were Africans or aliens, Alexander the great was ethnically and genetically Greek.
As another turk Im in between. Fact of the matter is nation states are new, macedonia of old was surely not identified with modern ethnic greek sense. They did spoke macedonian language and was not included to 4 “ethnicity” of hellenes/achaeans.
Its pretty natural macedonians sees themselves as macedonian as they are the state founded on said “macedonian” land and its people still carry said illyrian, thracian and greek mixed elements along with others.
Much like the name “prussian”. Original prussians was slavs, yet germans mixed with them and prussia used as a geographical name.
Rare that the Turks support the Greeks
Cool. Now give back Constantinople.
Fun fact: some people in early 20th century Europe had the bright idea to make Macedonia its own kingdom during the Balkan Wars, headed by a Danish king, that would be a mix of North Macedonian, Bulgarian, Serbian, and Greek in its culture and languages. Basically a Switzerland of the Balkans
But bro, there’s no Macedonian language. It’s literally Bulgarian mixed with Serbian and some Albanian. It’s like saying there’s a Californian language if that makes sense
That would be a fascinating idea if it happened .
We Greeks do not believe in the "region of Macedonia", as it is an ideological myth created by Bulgarian nationalists. For us, Macedonia ends where the Greek borders are
@@Stef77777some albanian? the whole albanian language has loan words from latin and slavic, the only albanian element in the albanian language is the pronunciation.
@@Stef77777there is, valley girlspeak
Alexander spoke Greek, promoted Greek culture, was educated by the philosopher Aristotle (a central figure in Greek intellectual history)... and more.
Also, the Argead dynasty (the founding dynasty of the Kingdom of Macedonia) as described in ancient Greek historiography, traced their origins to Argos of Peloponnese in Southern Greece. So, Alexander The Great, being the son of Philip II, was a direct descendant of the Argead kings and hence a Greek ruler.
Just because the ruler or ruling class of a place are of one ethnicity that doesn't necessarily mean that all the inhabitants of that place are of that ethnicity (the Frank's in France or the Normans in England). Also it is very common in history for the rulers of one polity to adopt the culture of a neighbouring region/country. Just look at Persian culture that was adopted by basically every court of the regions around it. Btw I also think they were Greeks or at least closely related to them, I just criticize your arguments.
There was actually an earlier Macedonian king named Alexander who was almost snubbed out of the Olympics for not being Greek, but he pulled out the bloodline records to prove it.
He wuz ghei
@@WakandaleezaRazz No you.
@@moderndemon84 Lmao Alexander was though it’s well documented and common knowledge, and I have no issue with it. I was just quoting that one African dude. Calm down.
I mean honestly arguing over whether Macedonians were really Greek or not seems pretty irrelevant compared to the fact North Macedonia barely has any of the land of ancient Macedonia compared to Greece so calling it Macedonia feels absurd
Fun fact : my Bulgarian father calls North Macedonia West Bulgaria
Let's debunk the skopian claims.
1st Royal family of ancient Macedonia claimed to be related with perdikas and Hercules the greek semi-god.
2nd the macedonians were allowed to participate in the Olympic games that only greeks could do.
3rd Their names mean something in greek language philippos(fond of horses) Alexander (the one that repels the men),there was no such thing as macedonian language.i hope that helps
to be exact, there was a macedonian language but it was not a slavic language, it was a hellenic language related to greek and had nothing to do with the slavic language spoken there now
Damn Western Turks really like coping about reality
@@dr.damian It wasn't a language though, it was a Greek dialect
@@dr.damian calling a dialect a language is wild. Think before you speak.
@@mrmoth26it wasn't a dialect, Croatian language is not a Serbian Dialect, and neither was Macedonian a Greek Dialect
There is no debate.
Macedonians were greeks, spoke ONLY greek. Worshipped greek gods. They were in the olympics. Only greeks were allowed. Greeks cities and kingdoms always fought each other. Alexander did not speak persian. He spoke greek. His native tongue. And Philip (after dominating over the rest of Greece) named the Alliance "the Hellenic League"
I agree. But we should also see that Modern Macedonia is not the same as Ancient Macedonia. Modern Macedonia is much more closer to Bulgaria in terms of culture and language than Greece. With the only real similarity with Old Macedonia being the name and general location.
@ibraheemshuaib8954 there is still Macedonia in Greece. It is an administrative and geographic unit with a population of 2.4 million people.
Macedonia is the current heir to the ancient Macedonian heritage. North Macedonia is a Slavic state, culturally Bulgarian
@@billyntok True......although, why is everyone arguing again? I feel like there's nothing really to argue about.
Not true, there was the original Macidonia that was taken over by Greeks. Alexander's army consisted of Greek speakers and Macodonians speakers. That's why the empire is called the Greoco Macedonian
@@ibraheemshuaib8954 mordern macedonia is stll greek, some parts of macedonia are located in "north macedonia" & in Bulgaria, but the majority, around 80% is located in the greek region of macedonia.
If he was Greek, why go to war with the other Greek cities
Maybe I'm trippin but isn't that what all the other Greek cities were doing at the time?
After Alexander's dad beat up on a bunch of Greek city states he forced them to join the Hellenic (Greek) League. In other words he went to war with the Greeks to unite the Greeks under his rule.
@@comedyveep so he went to war with a country to become that country..?
@@ganondorf66There wasn't a thing like a "country" back then anyways 🤦🏻♂️
That's quite literally what Greece did for its entire history. Even after ww2 they still had multiple civil wars.
Just the case is Macedonia was never city-state and it was totally different adninistrated from beginning. So yes in that time they were distinct from other Greeks and that's why Demosten was calling them barbarians in his wars against them.
The Slavs weren't native to the Balkans during that time. They migrated south much later down the timeline.
"A significant event in Alexander's life was his participation in the Olympic Games, which occurred around 496 BCE. Initially, he was about to be excluded by the other participants, since the games were reserved only to Greeks, who considered the Macedonians 'barbarians'. Alexander, however, proved that his dynasty originated from Temenus, the ancient king of Argos believed to be a direct descendant of the legendary Greek hero Hercules, and was therefore allowed to take part in the Olympics."
That would have to have been Alexander I (Alexander the Great was Alexander III).
Well some called them barbarians because of political reasons
Ironically during the classical period Macedonians were the ones insisting they were Greek and Greeks were the ones that said they were barbarians. How times change lol
The Macedonians still exist, btw, in Macedonia, the northern region of Greece. But yeah you are right. Back then the southern Greek city states were elitists
Ironically that’s what every other greek city said about their biggest political enemy city if their time 😊. The athenians called Spartans , barbarians and the Spartans called the athenians such. As if… you want to downplay your rival in front of other greeks and gain their support 😮
@@Thomas.Nikolaidis10 no i mean like widely speaking most greeks genuinely did not think of macedonians back then as greeks
Greeks didnt' insist they werne't Greeks. Macedonains competed as Greek during panHellenic sporting events like the Olympics for centuries. What some foreigners do is context of rhetoric of Greeks insulting other Greeks as non-Greeks as an insult (sort of like some politician in America today calling another one unamerican but along ethnic lines). It was during times of conflict between Greek city states or kingdoms. In the case of Demonsthenes it was because of conflict betwem Athens and Macedonia.
@@mydogsbutler Now hold up there, the Macedonians did not compete in the Olympics! They weren't allowed since they weren't considered Greek, however the royal family of Macedon was originally from Argos (hence why they are called the Argeads) and thus Greek. The Royal Family were allowed to send athletes to represent themselves, and not Macedon to the Olympic Games.
Saying Macedonia wasn’t Greek is like saying Sparta wasn’t Greek
It was one of the more distinct areas. It would be more similar to saying Crete isn't greek. Which is also a whole thing as Minoan history is unique as well.
Sparta, Corinth and Athens form the core of the ancient Greek region, everything else is more. Complicated
@@MrPbhuh He was reffering to the statement that macedonia went to war with other greek states. Every greek state did that to eachother tho? Like, Sparta and Athens were archnemesis to eachother, does that mean Sparta isnt greece?
@ognjenkuzeljevic1989 each Greek polis has a rather unique history. According to the Spartans they aren't Greeks actually, they considered themselves invaders who enslaved a Greek people.
@@quandaledingle7812 no it would be like saying Epirus wasn’t Greek….which is a fair argument.
Macedonians at that time period didn't consider themselves to be greek. Whereas athens and spartans albeit sworn enemies, have always considered themselves greek first, city second.
As a Macedonian (The real one, not the slavic), I'm tired of this debate. If someone has been taught something from childhood, even the whole world won't be able to change their mind.
and your ancestors were Pontian greeks..
@nizam-alem6761 Pontic*, but yes they were.
@@nizam-alem6761 Pontic literally means ''path'' so what is wrong with that?
*As a "Macedonian" (The Greek one, not the real one)
@@MetalMamemon76 Sure, whatever you say. My point still stands and I'm tired of this debate.
Alexander the Great was Greek. His hometown is Pella which is in Greece. He named Thessaloniki after his sister Niki. Most of modern day Turkey is Greece. Alexandria in Egypt is Greece. Most of the nations surrounding Greece in the modern world are mostly influenced by Ancient Greece and the Byzantine Empire. This gonna offend a lot of people, but Greece’s history has impacted the world almost as much as the Latin Romans and recent colonial powers. All American government buildings look like Ancient Greek structures for a reason, as it was once the cradle of democracy.
Most peaceful Balkan conversation:
It's not supposed to be calm, Skopians are literally demanding that entire chunks of Greece ought to be given to them and go out protesting about it.
Imagine if some random blokes who were fed fairytales from ww2 for generations claim that one of your biggest figures had nothing to do with your country and then demand a chunk of your own country and history just cause they feel entitled to it.
Same things been happening with Turkey trying to claim all the islands and Cyprus, same with other neighboring Northern countries who feel entitled to other chunks of Greek land.
If one is gonna go with that stupid mentality then Greece once owned nearly everything all the way to India, does that mean they can come out tomorrow and demand half the world?
Well, that is a normal Tuesday in the Balkans.
Similar issue here in South Asia. Internationally, Pakistan claims the legacy of the Indus Valley Civilization for itself, while at home, its history textbooks completely omits the pre-Islamic & non-Islamic polities of the country following its policy of Islamisation. The Tangail district of Bangladesh is the origin of a unique type of cotton sarees (called Tangail sarees). Hindu weavers from Tangail fleeing religious persecution brough the art of manufacturing Tangail sarees with them in India, while Muslim weavers continued to practice it at the same place. So when India alloted GI tag for Tangail sarees, Bangladesh was not happy, citing how could India claim a product which didn't originate in their land. And a few years ago, Nepal entered into a beef with India over the nationality of the Buddha.
As a person from Tangail,we didn't do anything bruh😅
Bro the people in the Indus valley civilization were clearly us Dravidians!
Modern day people in Pakistan were most likely the closest to the people who lived their during the indus valley period. Just because someone chooses to convert to a different religion, doesn't mean their ethnicity changes.
India was never 1 nation aswell, it was only fully united in 1947. Suggesting "Pakistan is historically a part of India" is stupid and makes 0 sense as India has never existed. Indian subcontinent was filled with various Kingdoms, some were so far apart they were as foreign as the Turks and Afgans who later invaded. A punjab back then would probably be more accustomed to seeing Turks, Arabs, Persians and Pashtuns than he would a Bengali, Tamil etc
@@BALLARDTWINnot really, the closest populations to IVC were Reddy’s, telugu Brahmins who live in South India.
So you have chosen Balkanization😁
As a Mexican, the Greeks win this one.
"If he was Greek why did he go to war with a bunch of other Greek cities?"
I'm sorry to tell you, but that's 90% of Greek cities at the time
"why would he go to war with Greek states?"
That is the MOST Greek thing to do.
Just one name is enough to start drama in the Balkans
Anything can start an argument in the Balkans 😂
At least they aren't borg Russians. 😊
It's not just a name
@@Brendo2386 No it can't!
That name is important however the real reason why the argument happens is that the Skopians also demand a large chunk of Greece that claim it was their own since the dawn of time, same thing as Albania and Turkey and most neighboors to Greece do.
Its like if Canada wanted the entirety of North US and Mexico demanded the entirety of South US and also claim that the political figure had always been hardcore mexicans since forever (which sound as stupid as the Skopian claim is, since mexicans are a by product of the Spanish much like the Skopians are a byproduct of the slavs and Titos strategies to break them apart and give them a different identity to have them not join Bulgaria against him)
As a Turk i can confirm Alexander was Turkish, and his name comes from Iskender Kebap.
Lol
*Kebab*
Bravo
This is the way.
Your right, he took central Asia to visit his famiy.
Alexandros the first (grandfather of Alexandros the Great) was met by Persians, prior to the Persian invasion in Greece, at Makedonia. The king was Amintas who was Alexandros the first's dad. The son of the king (Alexandros the first), introduced himself as this: I am a Greek man, second ruler of Makedonia. The sources is Herodotus on his 5th of total 9 books. End of story.
The Greek guy is absoluetely right
Alexander the Great was born in Pella which is a village in the north of GREECE
Omg these shorts are a BRILLIANT idea. Do more of these please!!
Greek guy's ideas are logical. He got me. Macedonians are greek.
Rename Macedonia to Greek Bulgaria
Genius!
And split it to Greece and Bulgaria
That's Southern Thrace
Funny thing is North Macedonia is basically Bulgarian descents sitting on pre-dominant Greek land.
No metaphors or so, just that
*you just provoked a gang war*
Alexander is widely accepted to have viewed himself as greek
I love history and I’m with the Greeks
Tbh the Greeks are 100% right there, but I'm glad that North Macedonia found a name that is both representative of a past (of which they did not partake) and is respectful of history, whilst being a real name, not the travesty that was AFKAP ... I mean FYROM.
mot 100% in the righ. True Macedonian elite was mostly Hellenized BUT not completely. Even Alexander the great enjoyed hunting. Something Greeks saw as savage. Mot some modern Macedonian claims to the ancient Macedonian culture would be like Croats claiming Illirian heritage
The name West Bulgaria is their real name as they are Bulgarian descent. To call this entire country North Macedonia is obsurd as they only occupy a small strip of land that belonged to Ancient Macedon.
@@kerrypapadopoulos8937 well the geographical region the country is located is CALLED MACEDONIA! it has been for centuries!
The fact All kind of iredentist are too stupid to let people who live there decide for themselves is a different matter entirely
@@PeoplecallmeLucifer Hunting was barbaric to the Romans but not to the Greeks. Hunting was celebrated in classical Greek religion and art.
@@chikn6814 Well I found different info ... maybe it was wrong. But the point is that the ancient Greek very much did not see Alexander as a Greek
Same logic with:
"If the confederates were american, why did they attack the union?"
Bulgaria: Cousins!
North Macedonia: Eh…. NO!
Bulgaria: Dang it Tito!
Pretty much , hopefully our nations can cooperate more in the future .
@@KougarManx468 Hopefully you stop electing Pro-Serbian goverment as well.
@@HeroManNick132 exactly , hopefully that comes true .
Brothers*
We are even more than cousins. We are brothers! But the problem rises when bulgaria claims that we are the same people. WE ARE VERY CLOSE BUT NOT THE SAME!!!
Yeah no. Ancient Macedonian was either a dialect of Greek or a similar Hellenistic language.
This is 100% the best format for talking about Balkan issues, no lie
Actually, Alexander the Great was from Florida, and he also spoke Spanish. He only did the Greek thing a couple times when he was young, really he was just experimenting
All Balkan conflicts go back to
"u need a history lesson"
"no u do"
"no u do"
Over and over again
You left out the part that his parents were Greek. I suppose you just forgot by mistake
you forgot that slavs came 700 hundreds years later
You forgot that slavs conquered everything down to athens and they were speaking it in aegean macedonian. And the slavs didnt have a official language nor could they write so the macedonian kiril and method and later their scholars clement and naum created the Cyrillic alphabet in macedonian regions
@KaranosMK2 brother that was 900 years later still 🤣 search when it happened
@KaranosMK2 You're brainwashed by Tito my brother, like it or not Alexander the Great which is a greek name coming from "Alex" which means the one that sends aways and "andros" men, so it literally has a meaning in Greek from it's grammar.
@KaranosMK2 Also Cyrilos and Methodious are Greek coming from Thessaloniki speaking Greek and later creating the Slavic alphabet the Cyrillic.
@KaranosMK2 stop trying to steal history for it is written that the world belongs to the greeks
Alexander's family had to prove their Greek lineage to compete in the Olympics. They claimed to be descended from Heracles.
And they spoke on a greek dialect, had greek names, same religion etc.
And it was Alexander I that did that... Not Alexander the Great.
You use this because you are scared to admit your Bulgarian herritage which you want to erase.
SHOW US THEM ANCIENT MACEDONIAN COINS , ALL 100% GREEK , GAME OVER
Well Alexander the Great was from a time when countries didn't really exist, only distinct people groups and city-states
Yes, but Greek city states spoke the same language, had the same religion and called themselves Hellenes and at that time only Hellenes could participate in the Olympics. And guess what. Macedonians participated in the Olympics. History is literally there and anyone can read it. It’s common sense.
Macedon was an exception to this rule. This is part of what made them different. They were not a city state but more of a modern country.
@@Stef77777That still doesn't make him greek. You could say the same about the many British colonies, they all speak english, many share the same religion and they participate in events.
They are still separate countries.
Greece is a 19th century country.
Greek was the common tongue for that period.
As he said in those times it was about tribes nobody even had any idea about nations states.
Even Alexanders empire had tons of different ethnicities and religions.
@@Stef77777The Olympic Games are really the clincher for me. As you say, only Hellenes (at least until Roman rule) could participate and Macedon athletes frequently took part
@@happy_thinking
It does make him Greek. You can't participate in the Olympics in ancient times if you aren't a Greek. That's it.
Going to war so often with other Greek city states is the most Greek thing of all 😂
The argument ends when these people realize they are slavs and the slavs migrated to the region 1000 years later
The closest living relatives to the Ancient Macedonians today would be the Tsakonians, who are Doric-speaking, much like the language attested in the capital of Pella.
Linguistically yes, genetically no
Ancient Macedonians were part of the Greek world. Like ancient athenians, Spartans, et al., Greeks all share in that heritage.
I feel like the Peloponesian wars and wars of the diachoci would've been the perfect counter to that one point. XD
This feels like how Italians in the renaissance spoke to the byzantines. Basically the Italians during the renaissance were all about connecting back to their roots, aka pagan Rome, however at the same time existed the Byzantines, Christian Roman’s who have never lost touch with who they were.
Leading to new titles and these Roman’s being called Byzantine’s.
This is not the same. "North Macedonians" don't descend from the Ancient Macedonians at all, they're descended from the Slavic populations that came way after that. Their culture, language, writing system, ethnicity, cities, etc, revolve around Bulgarians and Slavs, why would this is even a debate?
@ I kinda just meant the vibe of the argument. I don’t know about the argument in the video, but it just reminded me of the Byzantines and Italians. Didn’t mean to ruffle feathers dude, just wanted to make a comment
@@ACIDJAZZZZ No problem, I didn't intend to reply rude to you or anything, it's just that I feel that West Bulgarians ("North Macedonians") live in constant denial of their origin.
Funny you say that when Greeks now since 1800s are in touch with their ancient roots of Alexander and Socrates instead of their Byzantine identity before. Changing from Romioi to Hellenes
@@Diegosarmiiwhile they have Slavic influence you can’t deny north Macedonians will have Hellenic ancestry, that’s part of what makes the north Macedonian identity
Greek city states fighting each other is like... 90% of classical greek history...
Even when they were fighting the Persians they were fighting other greek city states.
As i recall Alexander had the biggest empire at the time and Phillip the second his father defeated the greeks in his time.
They were 2 separate groups, and people are still debating.
Who can prove right?
Alexander the first had to prove his Hellenic identity to be able to participate in the Olympics and he did so through his familial heritage to Hercules. It also weird how modern Macedonia or North Macedonia is not geographically centered around the ancient capital at Pella or the burial grounds at Vergina .
Saying that North Macedonia’s ancestors is ancient Macedonia is like saying that Byzantine Empire is an ancestor of Turkey.
Greeks fighting greeks is a tradition old as time
Alexander’s family also had a history of competing in the Olympics, something only Greek people could do
There are two funny pictures that often get posted in regards to North Macedonia.
First one is countries color coded by whether Alexander was Greek or North Macedonian, according to their Wikipedia page. In it, everyone except North Macedonia views him as Greek.
There is a similar one with Goce Delchev, where every exept North Macedonia views him as Bulgarian.
Thats all you need to know about that country"s historical claims 😂
The Balkans are a mess. Yugoslavia was genuinely the best thing for the region.
This is pretty weak.
Only Greek tribes could participate in the Olympic games. Macedonians always got an invite...
Ancient Macendonians might not have been exactly the same as the other greeks but they were clearly close enough to be Hellenistic and be allowed to participate in the Olympics.
What other Greeks? Were the Greeks of Sicily the same as the Greeks of Cyprus or the Greeks of Pontus with the Greeks of Massalia in southern France?
Macedonia and Epirus were northern hellenic people...they weren't different in their hellenic ancestry but in the initial cultural reality and dialects of their regions. That's all nuances in reality.....We just see them as different because the 99% of the ancient greek views we have are from Athens alone......not from anyone else. Is like today we live in a world that the views of Western Europeans are very much the 99% of the views people have about Europe in general.
I actually really like the body checks of this fight. My only issue (and I must stress only because this is my favorite content in the whole game) with the fight design is the lack of recoverability after swaps. It takes too long to teleport in and there is no 'intended' way to teleport from the middle out. After the swaps, if things are messed up, you're just praying you can live through the missed towers.
By making the teleports from the outside happen faster and allowing some path from the inside to the outside would help alleviate this issue of irrecoverability after swaps.
I love how most of the comments are basically: "the complexity of 2000+ years of intervening history is too difficult to deal with so I'll just ignore it."
One ofthe biggest reasons for Alexanders struggles was that the people of Athen did not think about him as Greek whatsoever nor the people of Thebe.
That’s a myth. He took part in the Olympic Games. Of course they thought he was Greek. Only Greeks could participate and he did.
No. Only one athenian did that...and that was for political reasons
Για να ερμηνεύεις τα ιστορικά λεχθεντα πρέπει να είσαι τέλειος γνώστης των αρχαίων ελληνικών η να είσαι Έλληνας! Αλλιώς απλά εκτιθεσαι
From a neutral perspective the “Macedonian” arguments are just so weak.
The Greeks are right, and bulgarians brainwashed by serbians wrong.
I am Finnish, so no bias.
the "original macedonian" language was just a dialect of what we now know as Ancient greek
We Iranians call the Alex , Eskandar Magdooni wich means Macedonian Alexander!
So I choose the Macedon side i think...😅
Alexander proclaimed himself, aswell as his armies, to be greek.
Greek cities fought eachother all the time but it didnt make them any less greek.
Also, Alexander speaking a regional languange(macedonian) doesnt make him any less greek, are Sicilians not italian because they have their own language?
Exactly...
And macedonian was just a greek dialect according to historians
Tbf, greeks fighting greeks is pretty greek.
According to the HMH world history textbook, the Greeks looked down upon Macedonians despite the later adopting Greek culture.
Because of politics
Demosthenes and some Athenians did that. Not all Greeks.
None of this would be an issue if the Macedonians themselves weren't so elusive.
Whoever says Alexander isn’t Greek hasn’t studied history at all. His name is Greek for sake. You don’t even understand what his name means in other languages. As well as his father’s name and so on. Even his horses name.
Also the word Macedonian? Does any of you geniuses what it means? Guess what you can understand what it means if you speak Greek as well.
I really don’t understand why would a nation try to steal someone’s else’s history. It’s disrespectful to your nation. Everyone has its own history. And to honor your ancestors it would be nice to accept yours.
At this point i will just agree with the Greeks and the Bulgarians, only the Greek Macedonians are true Greeks, the north Macedonians are confused Bulgarians and before anyone answers to that, check on a specific Bulgarian organization that operated in North Macedonia during the balcan wars and the first world war
if i had a nickle for every slavic country that addapts name and elemnts of history and culture from another nonslavic group i would have 2 nickles...
What's the second one?
@@user-zo5ju8sy6lBulgaria. Anybody else noticing the pattern? 😂
Take one Nickel back, because, actually, Bulgarians aren't Slavs. They are originally a Turkic group . Bulgarians are Slavs as the modern Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians
@@ismaelkidhohn I thought speaking a Slavic language and having a Slavic culture&history made you Slavic. Guess not apparently
@@rogersmith7525 that's simple, they adopted the Slavic culture, including language. But they are Turkish in origin.
According to your logic the Athenians, the Spartans, the Thespians etc were not greek, because they were fighting each other.
How on earth did the slavs got mixed only with the "macedonians", yet they speak Bulgarian?
You know very well that you can have a direct communication with a Bulgarian by speaking your native language. With me (a greek) we have to speak English to each other, in order to communicate.
Tito created this mythology for you, in order to suppress the separatists that wanted to leave former Yougoslavia and join Bulgaria.
I like the fact that to Ancient Greeks the Macedonians were considered hillbillies
Fun fact: the country named Northern Macedonia is actually not located in the area where the ancient Makedones settled. They lived further south. The capital city of ancient Macedonia was Pella. Pella still exists and is located in Greece.
Another fun fact: the mother of Alexander the Great was not of Makedonic origin, she was the daughter of a Greek king. So whoever claim Alexander wasn't Greek publicly displays knowing very little about him.
As a Greek I don't mind Skopje being called North Macedonia since they live in land that used to be part of ancient Macedonia what I have a problem with is when they appropriate Greek history by saying ancient Macedonians weren't Greek.
It’s funny because when Philip II and Alexander were kicking around, they were trying to argue vehemently that they were Greek, and the southern cities like Athens said they weren’t. Alexander was so insanely good at his job that now it’s the other way around.
Demosthenes was saying that because of politics
Can you imagine being an immortal man watching this play out throughout the ages?
Macedonians also took part in the Olympics,where only Greek cities/states were allowed.
The Slavs of the created North Macedonia are Bulgarian descent.
Not all are Bulgarians. Their 1/4 is Albanian.
@@HeroManNick132 True that. Around a 1/4 Albanians problem. Most of the rest Bulgarians but throw in some Serbs and others in too,
Mixed with greek.....
Macedonia - where the mace was invented.
Macedonia comes from makednos which means tall.
Good one😊!
@@HeroManNick132no actually it comes from the word mace
I side with the Greeks 🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷
Alexander died 600 years before any slavic nation traveled south. They first appeared just before the Roman Empire.
oh thank god someone explained the macedonia issue to me. theyre always talking about it on the news and stuff so im glad this was cleared up
"Macedonia has the right to defend itself!"
"But do you condemn the Greeks?"
Stealing greek and bulgarian history. be like