Yes, the lack of insects has made me feel like I am in the twilight zone. Also please consider. I use to have to wash my windshield because it would get dirty. I never realized that all that 'dirt' was organic life either alive or dead to begin with. We (humans) forget that we cannot see the microscopic. The air we live in USED to be full of life. I live next to a major river surrounded by forests. The lack of dirt on the road is telling me the bottom of the food chain is gone.
It's been shocking to watch the insect and bird population disappear over the last 50+ years in the upper Midwest. I bring this up with people my age (60) and over, only about half of them have noticed the change. Speaking with anyone younger looks at me like I'm insane. While that may be true, it's not in this case. Also, the color of farmland has gone from a rich black soil to dead brown dirt.
@@stringlarson1247 A phrase I repeat over and over is, "You only know, what you know." I tell young people (I too am 60) that when you look up in the sky, that is what you know. Just like me. My parents had a different sky filled with many more birds. The world is so silent and clean. Feels very eerie. There are very few people who recognize this. Makes me feel alone. Thanks for sharing.
I have been worried about the insects too. This summer I planted a polinator garden and having all the bees visiting has been a huge source of joy. I realize it is miniscule and doesn't fix the problem but creating this little bee oasis has been good for them and good for my mental health.
We hear people saying "when I came into the world"... there's another way to look at this, which is, we came "out" of the world. I love that your podcast has this broad perspective on the planet, withing it's Critical time of now.
Professor David F. Noble wrote a book on this called "The Religion of Technology" about Platonic philosophy - and then Noble's final book was a followup: "Beyond the Promised Land"
It's been noted that the 2020 fraud was launched 10 years early perhaps due to capitalistic contingencies. Thus it didn't achieve the extent of depopulation it was meant to, although it was a pretty good juggernaut in terms of harm done. The sense is that its timing was off somewhat. due to an impending financial crunch. I admit this may be unprovable. I recommend Dr M ik e Ye ad on's Solo channel for good updates on this hellishness.
Polluter pays is vile, but it’s better than letting it be free to pollute. As an American, I’m very used to thinking in terms of the lesser of two evils.
"No matter how highly mechanised and self-powered, fossil fuels extraction requires a number of people - as if the process is executed by hands using buckets and ropes - by physics". Today, this number is 8 billion people - working flat out 24/7 - strong. Carl Safina, you and I are among those, too. “In any system of energy, Control is what consumes energy the most. No energy store holds enough energy to extract an amount of energy equal to the total energy it stores. No system of energy can deliver sum useful energy in excess of the total energy put into constructing it. This universal truth applies to all systems. Energy, like time, flows from past to future” (2017).
On a grossly over-populated planet with ever-diminishing resources it seems likely that even some humans will be deemed "non-essential". Look no further than contemporary Gaza for a glimpse of the future.
Russia has ground its criminals into a fertilizer paste to be sown into Ukrainian fields. It is powerful and sinister that people believe their national leaders. It seems more than ever that the leaders have no desire to express truth.
We can design a wondrous and beautiful world, it is just that no one seem to have an agency to do it, our current system has a mind of its own and no breaks
A comment on the intro. There's an astronaut that lived for about 12 months on the ISS. When he came back to earth he retired. That's how painful life outside of earth is. Even for super humans like astronauts are.
Religious historian, scholar Karen Armstrong has written a book called Sacred Nature. She, in her quiet way promotes a new way forward. The sacredness of nature. She brings all of her knowledge and experience into an ideology that links, nature, people and culture.
A great book on the Platonic philosophy origins of Christianity is "From Logos to Trinity: The Evolution of Religious Beliefs from Pythagoras to Tertullian" by Professor Marian Hillar
Excellent episode (as usual). While I didn't learn too much new info, I did pick up ideas on how better to frame the issues when speaking with others. Thank you. Also, just picked up the book on Audible.
This first sentence alone, while being such a basic truth, is despite that a reminder plenty of people would need. Transcendental "Idealism" in its many forms is a death cult
I'm skeptical that a philosophy that denigrates material reality could be to blame for rampant consumerism. Neoplatonists were ascetics, and so were neoplatonic christians, including many who we now call gnostics. It's true that there is a stark and maybe unflattering contrast between this and views that emphasize our interconnection with nature. But it seems cartoonishly oversimple to find the seeds for our current nightmare in Platonism. No pious believer in the platonic worldview would choose to create a mass society based on overconsumption, and Plato himself would regard most of our lives as base.
Wonderful discussion...Thank you both! I look forward to reading the book...The explanation about Plato's theories was fascinating and explains a lot...All the best to the owl...💙
The “Creator” is all of us. The Source. We are all manifestations of the Universe. We yearn to go back to the Source, because we feel separate. This is an illusion, designed (by us) to act out the grand play, the performance. We have to _split_ into the many, in order to be able to observe ourselves. It’s just a game. “The world is a stage, and we are merely the players.”
Even in Permaculture the three guiding ethics reveal the dualistic thought anchored in the minds of the inventors. That is why my courses have Four guiding ethics, the fourth being "continue with 1,2 and 3 until you realise that number 2 is actually included in number 1"
I really enjoyed this talk And the beautiful young women ,s accent and cute laugh made it that much better. But unfortunately, I'm afraid mankind is doomed 😢
5:12 - “We don't operate as if we are connected to the rest of the Living World, to other living things, and to the life supporting systems that made us possible, and keep us possible on this planet.” Things don't live long when they're disconnected from their life support system.
Rachel, you saved this interview for release on easter, rather than christmas ... because more folks are actually likely to listen to it over the easter long weekend?
Respecting all sentient life, and the environment that supports it, is the only rational basis for the new human story so desperately needed. Consider veganism, it’s been around since 1945, it’s roots go much further back. “The object of the vegan society is to oppose the exploitation of sentient life, whether it is profitable to do so or not.” Donald Watson August, 1945 💚🐾✊🏼💚🌏✌️💚
Greed and fear here caused me to be censored just now for pointing out such as to this platform. Glad to say there are other places than this for free speech.
Listening to the story of Plato through a psychedelic lens, I wonder (and it is scientifically suspected that there was consumption of Ergot in wine at this time, although I think the Dionysus cult was more marginal) I wonder if the dualistic thought was an unintended consequence of psychedelic experience influencing the thought. The downside of some psychedelics is that they take YOU, the individual, somewhere else for a time. YOU experience perfection, YOU experience new thought and new ways of thinking. We can see how stoicism can be born and become a crutch to help deal with the harshness of the world. (We need to remember that without our modern comforts the natural world is as harsh as it is abundant and beautiful!!) Belief in a perfect after life, that this is a testing ground for your soul, that God mysteries in very workful ways, all that helps people carry on when faced with adversity. That said, the upside of some psychedelics is that they do reconnect YOU with the universe, with the biosphere, and the stoic phylosophie does actually help you get through the harsh times when you have (as is my case) decided to step outside the consumer society and attempt to forge a meaningful and healthy and productive relationship with the earth's living systems. I try to see individuals as leaves on a tree. Isolated yet connected fractally all of us to the trunk and the roots.
I’m kind of hoping that the sanctions against Russian oil will help pay people toward clean energy, as the price of oil and gas goes up. I want some bright side to that mess of evil.
@@JMW-ci2pqlocal economies and de-globalization would make the single biggest improvement to reducing pollution and CO2 emissions. Local economies would improve employment, resiliency, and reduce mass migration. After that returning to agronomy and animal-power as well as distribution of land would take us the rest of the way. Likelihood? Only if people took back power and were educated.
Holy Shit! Someone who's analysis of Plato is terrifyingly close to my own!... but alright, now I've spent some time listening, here's some thoughts. Plato appears because of two earlier philosophers, Pythagoras and Heraclitus. Heraclitus, arguably is the more important for this story, he made a statement which became the foundation statement of all western philosophy; 'everything flows'. It's a statement about the fundamental nature of things, that 'reality' is a process of continual change. This statement splits everyone, some people agree with him, if change happens how can we guide it, they become early progressive, some people disagree, change is bad and should be stopped, they become conservative. Plato's Republic is an argument for the latter. He rejects that the changing world is the real world and instead says there is a higher reality of timeless perfection that is the real real world, so conservative mentality is right, and then he argues this is proven by the perfection of mathematical forms we can imagine (and in one sense, he is right in what he is saying). He proposes an education process to reach it (the Quadrivium), and a higher aristocratic class (Guardians) to administer society beneath the absolute rule of a philosopher king (Divine Right). What happens though, six hundred years later in neo-platonic times, Plotinus and St Augustine (De Civitas Dei, etc..) take Plato's writings, and try to translate them into Christianity. The idea of a perfect higher reality (Heaven) stays, all the math (geometry) stuff to get there though, mostly disappears. The Vatican City, Pope, Cardinals etc.. are all practical translations of Plato's ideal society given form, and they then control and give legitimacy (Noble Lie) to all the royal bloodlines across Europe (from Republic, a form of eugenics, breeding the perfect human by controlling upper class marriages). I really disagreed with Carl about the modern world automatically inheriting these ideas. Science, began by rejecting them. Figures like Bacon, Newton, Locke etc.. had the idea that Christianity/scripture had been corrupted (which Henry VIII's break allowed them to explore), and argued the introduction of neo-Platonism around 350AD was proof of this (generally they looked to Aristotle, and then went even further into a form of early Empiricism). For me, Science is the embracement of a world that changes, the whole process is about observation and recording to measure that change and question why, and evolution itself is the crowning jewel in that process of never ending change. I'd argue, the only reason we know about climate change now is because of those mechanisms, and all our evidence is based on those processes of measurement and recording (which the right wing throw a great deal of money at to discredit). I would however agree, just because a modern era scientific process accepts change happens, doesn't necessarily mean all society follows those ideas. We still have areas of society which very much focuses on restricting any change at all. Buildings and institutions are rarely 'dynamic', we do value unchanging stability in these things.
As James Prescott Joule only had to drop the weight in water 1845 making Sir Isaac Newton's impossible machine. Because a woman in the 1700's wrote the Kinetic Energy Experiment which Benjamin Franklin provides the charge to discharge labor of function of physics unification. You did not mention her, a woman, or Benjamin Franklin, Plato would have honestly. With love, what a ponder.
@@channelwarhorse3367 ...if I'm honest... you've kinda lost me. Joule and Franklin come a little later in the story, so I've not really talked about them. Plato was fairly patriarchal, it's always philosopher 'king'', not 'queen'... for the Pythagoreans some three hundred years earlier (the teachings from which half of the Quadrivium was based), women are given close to equal rights and allowed to learn mathematics and philosophy just the same as the men (though not full equality by any measure), but I'm unsure if these principles were carried forwards, especially given Plato's deference to Spartan society. Certainly by the time the Neo-Platonists are taking control, women's subjugation was an absolute.
@@SeventhCircleID sweet plays no delays. Physics is unified in 2007 legality in law. It steps the world past Albert Einstein's metric from 0, 4/3, 0 as unification is by 7 planes of light 7, 4/3, 7 before I go off r > c, r = c, r < c using g unifying physics using just Sir Isaac Newton math terms ... we can only teach greater honestly. I can be very critical, absolute subjugation (caps!) for all peoples, climate change comes. Spartish ...
These are good sentiments but Plato... really? Descartes added nothing to that? " Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image and likeness. And let them rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the tame animals, over all the earth, and over all the small crawling animals on the earth." That was written somewhere between 600 and 100 years before Plato lived. And the claim that other cultures have a fundamentally different respect for nature. No. That's romantic nonsense. What they had was a fundamentally different level of technology, often accompanied by a belief that if they hunted something to extinction the gods could manifest more.
Drove me off with the opening comments by the interviewee. Nobody thinks we're going to abandon Earth and move to Mars. The idea is that we plant life on a second, backup planet just in case.
Making life muttiplanetry is about extending consciousness into the future. It has nothing to do with giving up on earth or thinking that it will be better somewhere else
The only thing I disagreed with is his characterization of the Russo-Ukranian war. NATO enlargement is the central issue, and it is a real issue. Otherwise it was a great video.
I did a semester studying conservation biology in Costa Rica, 1992. The problem is that Costa Rica is dependent on global "ecotourism" from airplane flying - and the lack of army in Costa Rica depends on a reliance on U.S. imperialism. So I had a local "naturalist" guide me through the local park - he told me how he had fought for the Contras for example. The US funded contras had a base in Costa Rica for their drug/gun smuggling. Still going on today.
I consider it somewhat simplistic to place so much of the blame on Plato. His ideas may indeed have been one of the sources of the problems we face, but other ideas in Western thought have also contributed, notably the increasing skepticism regarding the possibility of real knowledge -- especially knowledge of the really important stuff, such as God -- since Descartes, Hume and Kant. It was this doubt regarding how we can (REALLY) know anything -- above all how we can really know if God exists -- that would eventually lead to the moral nihilism of the West from the early 19th century onwards. As Dostoevsky said, "Once there's no God everything is permitted."
Plato is not at fault. He just stumbled upon certain ideas, just like Einstein stumbled upon relativity. Plato was seeing the nature of the universe itself. He didn’t have the language necessary to explain it. The Vedas could help us, but as usual there’s more metaphor than practical explanation. This moment requires us all to upgrade in order to evolve. The “end of the Mayan calendar” wasn’t the end of the world or era, it’s telling us that we are at the cusp of a paradigm shift. We must have a shift in consciousness or we will be left behind.
I feel were better off fixing earth, and not give up on it, earth rely on us, and we rely on earth. The mars project I feel is a motivator, it's inventing and encouraging technology, innovation. Do we need it? Don't know!!!
Let me actually point out how badly she shortchanged the idea of "polluter pays". He correctly points out that it is necessary. She downplayed it as polluter pays a fine and moves on. He correctly points out that justice is needed and having polluters pay is a way to try to get justice. She is making the good the enemy of the perfect to help the bad. This is not a good way to fix things. Right now 1 of the things polluters lobby for and try to bribe political figures to get is immunity for consequences for their actions. Oil and coal companies receive a sizable indirect subsidy by not having to pay for the damages that Global Warming creates. In addition to removing their other subsidies how about removing this subsidy so there is some level or justice or accountability.
the clean air act is focused on big emitters and a supposed right to clean air. A newer engine whether gasoline or diesel is burning cleanly. Today's cars are not old-fashioned when at temperature but during warm-up expel very bad pollution. I believe Japan adheres to a model of lower miles age for all approved vehicles. The US has many loopholes and corruption of Congress allowing old vehicles, decatted vehicles, high mileage etc. Since the EPA was founded the EPA was co-opted by industry dollars. Also CO2 was not viewed as a toxic pollution in the 1970's because even today its not a toxic gas.
It is correct to vilify the irresponsibly of corporate entities, BUT it should be understood they are all merely responding to the cumulative demand of 8 BILLION people on a planet that can perpetually, renewably sustain only a 4th of that number.
Indigenous cultures and their connection to the living earth were mentioned at the beginning of this interview. The 'Living Earth' is key. The earth serpent eats its tail. The cull is here. Ancient cultures knew about these phases. The mass memory has been wiped. Many times...
No they are not. Often certain industries have tried to influence government policies to favor themselves and whatever they have already sunk their investments into. That is not "merely responding". Additionally the reason for fossil fuel use is not the number of people but what machines run on. This can trip people up because instead of numbers of people we are talking about kind of economy. People don't eat coal and oil. Coal and oil are used to do something else. An easy example of why total numbers of people actually can be a misleading thing to go by is look at the nation that puts out the greatest amount of CO2 on the planet today. If you think USA that would be wrong (while the US does put out major amounts of pollution per person), it is China. China slowed its rise in population back in the 1970s. With less of an increase in the number of people the assumption would be less of a rise in pollution if just focused on population size. Instead the amount of pollution put out by China increased by greater and greater amounts rather than smaller and smaller. This is because China decided to industrialize and grow its economy in a very pollution heavy way. Even now as China improves its environmental efforts with renewables it is trying to resist moving away from burning coal because it has already invested so much into burning coal.
The stories grow as the extended data flows . A lot of people think the ones raised with such played others to gain. Little would they know the way presentation brings about a true situation that was competed against to run ideas , things, agenda and laws. Try understanding if the cure is against those odds, it's due their own nature to exaggerate some to extended crisis to a potential additive for gain ..enough said
How treacherous the idea of going to live on Mars! "The heart (the seat of motivation) is treacherous. Who can know it?" Who knew that the earth would be "ruined"? While we're at it, "the whole world is in the power of the wicked one (1 John 5:19)." We can learn a lot from the Biblical record. We can also learn a lot when no one wants you to look at the record, either through hypocrisy or confusion and giving up.
Oh, how easy it is to neglect the benefits brought with the making of the modern world and look romantically at times past and other cultures. There are too many of us and putting food on the table takes us away from nature. We have global crises that we have to try to fix, but that is because there are limited resources and we have become the victims of our own success, and other species are victims of our success. What are we willing to pay? What are the relatively rich willing to pay?
I suspect forming a colony on Mars would be very beneficial. Intensive recycling of everything. No ability for nature to fill in the ecological gaps in the poorly designed horticultural ecosystem. Any extinction could be deadly for the colonists who would rapidly become passionate environmentalists from necessity and experience - a big benefit for Earth, should any return.
You know I always am very disappointed when I run into Russia phobia and Sino phobia in these supposedly leftist spaces. The war in Ukraine is a NATO issue not a Russian issue... Marx's criticisms are so essential to change it makes me very cross people are so scared of it... trained like pavlovs dog to screech at any mention
You're telling me. No offense to, liberals I guess, but it's hard to imagine people more implicated in our imminent self-annihilation, and people who I would less look to for substantive guidance in our time of crisis, than the two textbook progressive liberals in this podcast. I appreciate the sentiments, and they're all well and good, but this is just more liberals being liberals. Which is precisely what got us where we are today. Over the last 100-150 years of western liberal hegemony, when all the damage was done. Always there with the talk, but never a real threat to anything, despite all the rhetoric and the PhDs. So reliably ineffectual that you almost wonder if they had king-of-the-world power to remake society in their image, would it even look any different than it does today. Obviously socialism, of some sort, would be humanity's only chance to live sustainably and decently. Marx or no Marx. Either that or some truly horrific AI-dominated dystopia, where armed drones mete out rations to the masses and strictly enforce order, or something nightmarish along those lines. So that the socioeconomic elite can maintain their standard of living in spite of the scarcity, which presumably most well-placed liberals would gladly take over socialism. But it's probably too late even for that.
Overpopulation by clue less moron humans , over shoot of carrying capacity of natural resources. Fossil fuel capitalism, paper money , debit . Blame the breeders of humans. Antinatalist are right
The human population is actually moving to stability and then likely shrinkage. But the most impactful pollution is not related to population size. The example of China proves this. As the rate of China's population growth slowed the amount of Carbon pollution put out by China increased. This is because highly polluting industrialization policies by China grew its economy in a way that favored pollution. Human societies have economies. We don't eat coal and oil. Those have been burned to do other things. If we burn them to power our machinery then pollution happens regardless of how many people are standing near that machinery.
nope. in a shitton of belief systems, like say buddhism or anarchism, when presented with better evidence and truths you embrace them. humans can evolve.
The duality of light/dark, male/female, good/evil that we perceive in this reality is an expression of the vibrating implicate from which all things erupt. Its waves go above the midline and descends below it only to return, harmonizing into sacred geometry, seeking balance.
To claim the poly-crisis are caused by what people are taught to value is to mistake the effect for the cause. The obvious question that should have been asked is: why have people been taught in this way? The answer is simple - class interest! The capitalist class know full well that their "reign" is only possible if the majority are under an illusion that makes it possible to chain them to their wage-slavery without them becoming aware en mass of their class position and the social system that maintains their slavery. The horrible side-impacts of this social system is the destruction of the less than human world which is in turn caused by the inbuilt nature of this social-system - capital accumulation. I have found this conversation to be totally worthless in busting the illusions.
He actually did mention that you don't see dualism in indigenous cultures. That implies western cultures maintain power through class systems, utilizing dualism, sanctifying patriarchal hierchy.
This is an interesting theory, namely laying the blame at the feet of Plato. The earliest Jewish traditions and Scriptures, which predate Plato by centuries, have two ideas about the role of humankind in relation to the rest of creation. The first, in Genesis 1:26-28, is understood as the Dominion Mandate. “Be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth and have dominion over it.” This Dominion Mandate has been very popular and is deeply embedded in the Judeao-Christian tradition and practice. It also helped to lay the foundations for a narrow and distorted anthropocentric. The second is in Genesis 2:15-17 and is sometimes referred to as the Gardener Mandate or Stewardship Mandate. “The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it.” (A literal translation of the Hebrew is “to work and to watch over”.) unfortunately, there is a lang history in Jewish and Christian practice of emphasising the Dominion Mandate whilst neglecting the Gardener/Steward Mandate. There has been a growing movement with Judaism and Christianity to correct that distortion over recent decades. Platonic influence may be evident in early Christian theology but the roots of the issue predate Plato and are embedded in a distorted reading of Scripture and tradition. As always, there is a need for a careful and informed hermeneutic so I would contend that the blame does not lie at the feet of Plato. It also a little disingenuous to argue against the ideal vs real Platonic distinction. Surely, we have an ideal of what a sustainable, ecologically connected world where humanity is part of a healthy whole towards which we are striving. If not, what are we writing books and doing podcasts for?
Honestly I think your reading of Plato Is very superficial and rudimentary. Being a student of Plato and a lover of nature I would advise to avoid such readings.and maybe to.give a look to Plato's Revenge by William Ophuls. It's not obligatory to know Plato but don't talk about It if you do not have a proper understanding of his work and rely on outdatet Reading inspired by Popper and the like.
we should go to Mars because the worlds greatest capitalist is Elon says so, and hes super rich and invents all sorts of amazing critically important things like space rockets that will take us and our pets to Mars, and he plans to make a bit from it, but wait! Theres more ! He also thought of underground highways and the amazing Tesla car [on sale now]. What Will Musk Think of Next ?
Look at us. We the technophobic. We who stand against progress and howl at the moon. We wonder how preparing to live on mars could augment our technological capabilities to limit and shrink our footprint and give back to earth. We wonder and cry. We plan to die.
Make a combustion of water machine, damn fight for LIFE!! You 70 percent water, holy, privilege to make technology in periodical form. Physics is unified, plug & chug electro can be taken over with least cost energy machines using water. HOWL, 2007 legal by patent law, physics is unified. HOWL FROM THE CAVE PLATO!! In combat, I am looking RIGHT NOW, as climate change is creeping up on me even MORE >..
Yes, the lack of insects has made me feel like I am in the twilight zone.
Also please consider.
I use to have to wash my windshield because it would get dirty. I never realized that all that 'dirt' was organic life either alive or dead to begin with. We (humans) forget that we cannot see the microscopic. The air we live in USED to be full of life. I live next to a major river surrounded by forests. The lack of dirt on the road is telling me the bottom of the food chain is gone.
It's been shocking to watch the insect and bird population disappear over the last 50+ years in the upper Midwest.
I bring this up with people my age (60) and over, only about half of them have noticed the change. Speaking with anyone younger looks at me like I'm insane. While that may be true, it's not in this case.
Also, the color of farmland has gone from a rich black soil to dead brown dirt.
@@stringlarson1247 A phrase I repeat over and over is, "You only know, what you know." I tell young people (I too am 60) that when you look up in the sky, that is what you know. Just like me. My parents had a different sky filled with many more birds. The world is so silent and clean. Feels very eerie. There are very few people who recognize this. Makes me feel alone. Thanks for sharing.
I have been worried about the insects too. This summer I planted a polinator garden and having all the bees visiting has been a huge source of joy. I realize it is miniscule and doesn't fix the problem but creating this little bee oasis has been good for them and good for my mental health.
what people dont understand is before we had computers there was NO climate change!
just saying!
We hear people saying "when I came into the world"... there's another way to look at this, which is, we came "out" of the world. I love that your podcast has this broad perspective on the planet, withing it's Critical time of now.
civilization itself is hierarchical
it is also inherently ecocidal
to shift our belief system we have to recognize civilization itself as the problem
Those damn humans!!! Ha! What is it about the left and their nihilism?
Thank you, another great interviewee and video.
Professor David F. Noble wrote a book on this called "The Religion of Technology" about Platonic philosophy - and then Noble's final book was a followup: "Beyond the Promised Land"
It'll be hell on Earth by 2030.
2026 comes before .. with love
already hell on earth for many
It's been noted that the 2020 fraud was launched 10 years early perhaps due to capitalistic contingencies. Thus it didn't achieve the extent of depopulation it was meant to, although it was a pretty good juggernaut in terms of harm done. The sense is that its timing was off somewhat. due to an impending financial crunch. I admit this may be unprovable. I recommend Dr M ik e Ye ad on's Solo channel for good updates on this hellishness.
I’m ready.
@@georgemcfetridge8310 2020 was a test run. It should be a wake up call for the rest of us. 2030 is within sight.
Polluter pays is vile, but it’s better than letting it be free to pollute. As an American, I’m very used to thinking in terms of the lesser of two evils.
"No matter how highly mechanised and self-powered, fossil fuels extraction requires a number of people - as if the process is executed by hands using buckets and ropes - by physics".
Today, this number is 8 billion people - working flat out 24/7 - strong.
Carl Safina, you and I are among those, too.
“In any system of energy, Control is what consumes energy the most.
No energy store holds enough energy to extract an amount of energy equal to the total energy it stores.
No system of energy can deliver sum useful energy in excess of the total energy put into constructing it.
This universal truth applies to all systems.
Energy, like time, flows from past to future” (2017).
This quote if from? Very interesting...
On a grossly over-populated planet with ever-diminishing resources it seems likely that even some humans will be deemed "non-essential". Look no further than contemporary Gaza for a glimpse of the future.
And rightfuly so.
Dont worry the mandated vaccines are working as planned 🥴😈☠
Russia has ground its criminals into a fertilizer paste to be sown into Ukrainian fields.
It is powerful and sinister that people believe their national leaders. It seems more than ever that the leaders have no desire to express truth.
Hmmm...you'd think that there is some sort of plans to get rid of the carbon... 🤔
What the Nazis did in Europe then was a herald of the future. A future that I do not like and hope we can avoid.
We can design a wondrous and beautiful world, it is just that no one seem to have an agency to do it, our current system has a mind of its own and no breaks
Thanks Rachel!
A comment on the intro. There's an astronaut that lived for about 12 months on the ISS. When he came back to earth he retired. That's how painful life outside of earth is. Even for super humans like astronauts are.
Religious historian, scholar Karen Armstrong has written a book called Sacred Nature. She, in her quiet way promotes a new way forward. The sacredness of nature. She brings all of her knowledge and experience into an ideology that links, nature, people and culture.
Thanks 😊🎉❤
This planet has 2 protective force fields that allow life.They are the ozone layer and more importantly the magnetic field.
Lovely. Enlightening, intelligent, compassionate and empathetic. Subscribing now.
A great book on the Platonic philosophy origins of Christianity is
"From Logos to Trinity: The Evolution of Religious Beliefs from Pythagoras to Tertullian"
by Professor Marian Hillar
Excellent episode (as usual). While I didn't learn too much new info, I did pick up ideas on how better to frame the issues when speaking with others.
Thank you.
Also, just picked up the book on Audible.
Thanks again for the great and inspriring interview!!
This first sentence alone, while being such a basic truth, is despite that a reminder plenty of people would need.
Transcendental "Idealism" in its many forms is a death cult
I'm skeptical that a philosophy that denigrates material reality could be to blame for rampant consumerism. Neoplatonists were ascetics, and so were neoplatonic christians, including many who we now call gnostics. It's true that there is a stark and maybe unflattering contrast between this and views that emphasize our interconnection with nature. But it seems cartoonishly oversimple to find the seeds for our current nightmare in Platonism. No pious believer in the platonic worldview would choose to create a mass society based on overconsumption, and Plato himself would regard most of our lives as base.
Wonderful discussion...Thank you both! I look forward to reading the book...The explanation about Plato's theories was fascinating and explains a lot...All the best to the owl...💙
Therapy's hard. Easier just to trash the place & pretend there's somewhere else to go.
Seriously mind-expanding ideas.
The “Creator” is all of us. The Source. We are all manifestations of the Universe. We yearn to go back to the Source, because we feel separate. This is an illusion, designed (by us) to act out the grand play, the performance. We have to _split_ into the many, in order to be able to observe ourselves. It’s just a game. “The world is a stage, and we are merely the players.”
Even in Permaculture the three guiding ethics reveal the dualistic thought anchored in the minds of the inventors. That is why my courses have Four guiding ethics, the fourth being "continue with 1,2 and 3 until you realise that number 2 is actually included in number 1"
Wonderfully interesting conversation. :)
Great discussion, great channel. Thank you.
I really enjoyed this talk And the beautiful young women ,s accent and cute laugh made it that much better. But unfortunately, I'm afraid mankind is doomed 😢
Me gusta esta observación de PLATON.
5:12 - “We don't operate as if we are connected to the rest of the Living World, to other living things, and to the life supporting systems that made us possible, and keep us possible on this planet.” Things don't live long when they're disconnected from their life support system.
Rachel, you saved this interview for release on easter, rather than christmas
... because more folks are actually likely to listen to it over the easter long weekend?
Respecting all sentient life, and the environment that supports it, is the only rational basis for the new human story so desperately needed. Consider veganism, it’s been around since 1945, it’s roots go much further back.
“The object of the vegan society is to oppose the exploitation of sentient life, whether it is profitable to do so or not.”
Donald Watson
August, 1945
💚🐾✊🏼💚🌏✌️💚
Greed and fear here caused me to be censored just now for pointing out such as to this platform. Glad to say there are other places than this for free speech.
Listening to the story of Plato through a psychedelic lens, I wonder (and it is scientifically suspected that there was consumption of Ergot in wine at this time, although I think the Dionysus cult was more marginal) I wonder if the dualistic thought was an unintended consequence of psychedelic experience influencing the thought. The downside of some psychedelics is that they take YOU, the individual, somewhere else for a time. YOU experience perfection, YOU experience new thought and new ways of thinking. We can see how stoicism can be born and become a crutch to help deal with the harshness of the world. (We need to remember that without our modern comforts the natural world is as harsh as it is abundant and beautiful!!) Belief in a perfect after life, that this is a testing ground for your soul, that God mysteries in very workful ways, all that helps people carry on when faced with adversity. That said, the upside of some psychedelics is that they do reconnect YOU with the universe, with the biosphere, and the stoic phylosophie does actually help you get through the harsh times when you have (as is my case) decided to step outside the consumer society and attempt to forge a meaningful and healthy and productive relationship with the earth's living systems. I try to see individuals as leaves on a tree. Isolated yet connected fractally all of us to the trunk and the roots.
I’m kind of hoping that the sanctions against Russian oil will help pay people toward clean energy, as the price of oil and gas goes up. I want some bright side to that mess of evil.
That’s a pipe dream. They have no problem selling their gas and oil.
“Clean energy”
Such as?
@@JMW-ci2pqlocal economies and de-globalization would make the single biggest improvement to reducing pollution and CO2 emissions. Local economies would improve employment, resiliency, and reduce mass migration. After that returning to agronomy and animal-power as well as distribution of land would take us the rest of the way. Likelihood? Only if people took back power and were educated.
Holy Shit! Someone who's analysis of Plato is terrifyingly close to my own!... but alright, now I've spent some time listening, here's some thoughts. Plato appears because of two earlier philosophers, Pythagoras and Heraclitus. Heraclitus, arguably is the more important for this story, he made a statement which became the foundation statement of all western philosophy; 'everything flows'. It's a statement about the fundamental nature of things, that 'reality' is a process of continual change. This statement splits everyone, some people agree with him, if change happens how can we guide it, they become early progressive, some people disagree, change is bad and should be stopped, they become conservative. Plato's Republic is an argument for the latter. He rejects that the changing world is the real world and instead says there is a higher reality of timeless perfection that is the real real world, so conservative mentality is right, and then he argues this is proven by the perfection of mathematical forms we can imagine (and in one sense, he is right in what he is saying). He proposes an education process to reach it (the Quadrivium), and a higher aristocratic class (Guardians) to administer society beneath the absolute rule of a philosopher king (Divine Right).
What happens though, six hundred years later in neo-platonic times, Plotinus and St Augustine (De Civitas Dei, etc..) take Plato's writings, and try to translate them into Christianity. The idea of a perfect higher reality (Heaven) stays, all the math (geometry) stuff to get there though, mostly disappears. The Vatican City, Pope, Cardinals etc.. are all practical translations of Plato's ideal society given form, and they then control and give legitimacy (Noble Lie) to all the royal bloodlines across Europe (from Republic, a form of eugenics, breeding the perfect human by controlling upper class marriages).
I really disagreed with Carl about the modern world automatically inheriting these ideas. Science, began by rejecting them. Figures like Bacon, Newton, Locke etc.. had the idea that Christianity/scripture had been corrupted (which Henry VIII's break allowed them to explore), and argued the introduction of neo-Platonism around 350AD was proof of this (generally they looked to Aristotle, and then went even further into a form of early Empiricism). For me, Science is the embracement of a world that changes, the whole process is about observation and recording to measure that change and question why, and evolution itself is the crowning jewel in that process of never ending change. I'd argue, the only reason we know about climate change now is because of those mechanisms, and all our evidence is based on those processes of measurement and recording (which the right wing throw a great deal of money at to discredit).
I would however agree, just because a modern era scientific process accepts change happens, doesn't necessarily mean all society follows those ideas. We still have areas of society which very much focuses on restricting any change at all. Buildings and institutions are rarely 'dynamic', we do value unchanging stability in these things.
As James Prescott Joule only had to drop the weight in water 1845 making Sir Isaac Newton's impossible machine. Because a woman in the 1700's wrote the Kinetic Energy Experiment which Benjamin Franklin provides the charge to discharge labor of function of physics unification. You did not mention her, a woman, or Benjamin Franklin, Plato would have honestly. With love, what a ponder.
@@channelwarhorse3367 ...if I'm honest... you've kinda lost me. Joule and Franklin come a little later in the story, so I've not really talked about them. Plato was fairly patriarchal, it's always philosopher 'king'', not 'queen'... for the Pythagoreans some three hundred years earlier (the teachings from which half of the Quadrivium was based), women are given close to equal rights and allowed to learn mathematics and philosophy just the same as the men (though not full equality by any measure), but I'm unsure if these principles were carried forwards, especially given Plato's deference to Spartan society. Certainly by the time the Neo-Platonists are taking control, women's subjugation was an absolute.
@@SeventhCircleID sweet plays no delays. Physics is unified in 2007 legality in law. It steps the world past Albert Einstein's metric from 0, 4/3, 0 as unification is by 7 planes of light 7, 4/3, 7 before I go off r > c, r = c, r < c using g unifying physics using just Sir Isaac Newton math terms ... we can only teach greater honestly. I can be very critical, absolute subjugation (caps!) for all peoples, climate change comes.
Spartish ...
@@channelwarhorse3367 ...I see...
These are good sentiments but Plato... really? Descartes added nothing to that?
" Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image and likeness. And let them rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the tame animals, over all the earth, and over all the small crawling animals on the earth." That was written somewhere between 600 and 100 years before Plato lived.
And the claim that other cultures have a fundamentally different respect for nature. No. That's romantic nonsense. What they had was a fundamentally different level of technology, often accompanied by a belief that if they hunted something to extinction the gods could manifest more.
Insightful of the ying-yang concept. Contrast that with today's "With us or against us", hegemonic chant of war mongers.
Drove me off with the opening comments by the interviewee. Nobody thinks we're going to abandon Earth and move to Mars. The idea is that we plant life on a second, backup planet just in case.
Making life muttiplanetry is about extending consciousness into the future. It has nothing to do with giving up on earth or thinking that it will be better somewhere else
The only thing I disagreed with is his characterization of the Russo-Ukranian war. NATO enlargement is the central issue, and it is a real issue. Otherwise it was a great video.
Interesting. He revealed the date of the interview and it was 4.5 months ago.
I recorded 3 months worth of episodes in advance to take Dec-Feb working on another project.
Costa Rica as an example of a peace pocket as far as I know.
Only because of their deal with US military
I did a semester studying conservation biology in Costa Rica, 1992. The problem is that Costa Rica is dependent on global "ecotourism" from airplane flying - and the lack of army in Costa Rica depends on a reliance on U.S. imperialism. So I had a local "naturalist" guide me through the local park - he told me how he had fought for the Contras for example. The US funded contras had a base in Costa Rica for their drug/gun smuggling. Still going on today.
Censorship is mind control.
I consider it somewhat simplistic to place so much of the blame on Plato. His ideas may indeed have been one of the sources of the problems we face, but other ideas in Western thought have also contributed, notably the increasing skepticism regarding the possibility of real knowledge -- especially knowledge of the really important stuff, such as God -- since Descartes, Hume and Kant. It was this doubt regarding how we can (REALLY) know anything -- above all how we can really know if God exists -- that would eventually lead to the moral nihilism of the West from the early 19th century onwards. As Dostoevsky said, "Once there's no God everything is permitted."
Plato is not at fault. He just stumbled upon certain ideas, just like Einstein stumbled upon relativity. Plato was seeing the nature of the universe itself. He didn’t have the language necessary to explain it. The Vedas could help us, but as usual there’s more metaphor than practical explanation. This moment requires us all to upgrade in order to evolve. The “end of the Mayan calendar” wasn’t the end of the world or era, it’s telling us that we are at the cusp of a paradigm shift. We must have a shift in consciousness or we will be left behind.
Please spread my information,as i chief of world planning commission
If people understood that the planet herself is alive, do you think we would care?
I feel were better off fixing earth, and not give up on it, earth rely on us, and we rely on earth.
The mars project I feel is a motivator, it's inventing and encouraging technology, innovation. Do we need it? Don't know!!!
Let me actually point out how badly she shortchanged the idea of "polluter pays". He correctly points out that it is necessary. She downplayed it as polluter pays a fine and moves on. He correctly points out that justice is needed and having polluters pay is a way to try to get justice. She is making the good the enemy of the perfect to help the bad. This is not a good way to fix things. Right now 1 of the things polluters lobby for and try to bribe political figures to get is immunity for consequences for their actions. Oil and coal companies receive a sizable indirect subsidy by not having to pay for the damages that Global Warming creates. In addition to removing their other subsidies how about removing this subsidy so there is some level or justice or accountability.
'the clean air act' - but they are still selling old fashioned ICE cars.
the clean air act is focused on big emitters and a supposed right to clean air. A newer engine whether gasoline or diesel is burning cleanly. Today's cars are not old-fashioned when at temperature but during warm-up expel very bad pollution. I believe Japan adheres to a model of lower miles age for all approved vehicles. The US has many loopholes and corruption of Congress allowing old vehicles, decatted vehicles, high mileage etc. Since the EPA was founded the EPA was co-opted by industry dollars. Also CO2 was not viewed as a toxic pollution in the 1970's because even today its not a toxic gas.
It is correct to vilify the irresponsibly of corporate entities, BUT it should be understood they are all merely responding to the cumulative demand of 8 BILLION people on a planet that can perpetually, renewably sustain only a 4th of that number.
Indigenous cultures and their connection to the living earth were mentioned at the beginning of this interview. The 'Living Earth' is key. The earth serpent eats its tail. The cull is here. Ancient cultures knew about these phases. The mass memory has been wiped. Many times...
No they are not. Often certain industries have tried to influence government policies to favor themselves and whatever they have already sunk their investments into. That is not "merely responding". Additionally the reason for fossil fuel use is not the number of people but what machines run on. This can trip people up because instead of numbers of people we are talking about kind of economy. People don't eat coal and oil. Coal and oil are used to do something else.
An easy example of why total numbers of people actually can be a misleading thing to go by is look at the nation that puts out the greatest amount of CO2 on the planet today. If you think USA that would be wrong (while the US does put out major amounts of pollution per person), it is China. China slowed its rise in population back in the 1970s. With less of an increase in the number of people the assumption would be less of a rise in pollution if just focused on population size. Instead the amount of pollution put out by China increased by greater and greater amounts rather than smaller and smaller. This is because China decided to industrialize and grow its economy in a very pollution heavy way. Even now as China improves its environmental efforts with renewables it is trying to resist moving away from burning coal because it has already invested so much into burning coal.
The stories grow as the extended data flows . A lot of people think the ones raised with such played others to gain. Little would they know the way presentation brings about a true situation that was competed against to run ideas , things, agenda and laws. Try understanding if the cure is against those odds, it's due their own nature to exaggerate some to extended crisis to a potential additive for gain ..enough said
How treacherous the idea of going to live on Mars! "The heart (the seat of motivation) is treacherous. Who can know it?" Who knew that the earth would be "ruined"? While we're at it, "the whole world is in the power of the wicked one (1 John 5:19)." We can learn a lot from the Biblical record. We can also learn a lot when no one wants you to look at the record, either through hypocrisy or confusion and giving up.
“Who new it?”
“The Earth is precious . If you alter it, you will ruin it.” -Lao Tzu
Oh, how easy it is to neglect the benefits brought with the making of the modern world and look romantically at times past and other cultures. There are too many of us and putting food on the table takes us away from nature. We have global crises that we have to try to fix, but that is because there are limited resources and we have become the victims of our own success, and other species are victims of our success. What are we willing to pay? What are the relatively rich willing to pay?
Complete side note, but Carl sounds just like David Duchovny.
Nope don't hear it
Pagans for Truth! ❤
"A polycrisis"...engineered by the few and blamed on the many.
I suspect forming a colony on Mars would be very beneficial.
Intensive recycling of everything.
No ability for nature to fill in the ecological gaps in the poorly designed horticultural ecosystem.
Any extinction could be deadly for the colonists who would rapidly become passionate environmentalists from necessity and experience - a big benefit for Earth, should any return.
"Intensive recycling of everything."
How would that be beneficial?
@@aliendroneservices6621 Take a look at a landfill site someday. If it cannot be composted, it needs to be reused if possible then recycled.
You know I always am very disappointed when I run into Russia phobia and Sino phobia in these supposedly leftist spaces. The war in Ukraine is a NATO issue not a Russian issue...
Marx's criticisms are so essential to change it makes me very cross people are so scared of it... trained like pavlovs dog to screech at any mention
You're telling me. No offense to, liberals I guess, but it's hard to imagine people more implicated in our imminent self-annihilation, and people who I would less look to for substantive guidance in our time of crisis, than the two textbook progressive liberals in this podcast. I appreciate the sentiments, and they're all well and good, but this is just more liberals being liberals. Which is precisely what got us where we are today. Over the last 100-150 years of western liberal hegemony, when all the damage was done. Always there with the talk, but never a real threat to anything, despite all the rhetoric and the PhDs. So reliably ineffectual that you almost wonder if they had king-of-the-world power to remake society in their image, would it even look any different than it does today.
Obviously socialism, of some sort, would be humanity's only chance to live sustainably and decently. Marx or no Marx. Either that or some truly horrific AI-dominated dystopia, where armed drones mete out rations to the masses and strictly enforce order, or something nightmarish along those lines. So that the socioeconomic elite can maintain their standard of living in spite of the scarcity, which presumably most well-placed liberals would gladly take over socialism. But it's probably too late even for that.
Why is the world in crisis?…3 words….GREED, FEAR, and IGNORANCE.
And concentration of power in the hands of the most manipulative of the lot.
Overpopulation by clue less moron humans , over shoot of carrying capacity of natural resources. Fossil fuel capitalism, paper money , debit . Blame the breeders of humans. Antinatalist are right
Arrogance not ignorance
Arrogance not ignorance
PALE BLUE DOT
🫂
The reason of terraforming a dead planet is to address the overpopulation issue without addressing the overpopulation issue.
The human population is actually moving to stability and then likely shrinkage. But the most impactful pollution is not related to population size. The example of China proves this. As the rate of China's population growth slowed the amount of Carbon pollution put out by China increased. This is because highly polluting industrialization policies by China grew its economy in a way that favored pollution.
Human societies have economies. We don't eat coal and oil. Those have been burned to do other things. If we burn them to power our machinery then pollution happens regardless of how many people are standing near that machinery.
@@pplr1 while somewhat correlated, overpopulation and pollution are two different issues.
@@ecocentrichomestead6783 I agree with you they are different issues. Part of my earlier point is that they may not even be somewhat correlated.
✅
nope. in a shitton of belief systems, like say buddhism or anarchism, when presented with better evidence and truths you embrace them. humans can evolve.
The duality of light/dark, male/female, good/evil that we perceive in this reality is an expression of the vibrating implicate from which all things erupt. Its waves go above the midline and descends below it only to return, harmonizing into sacred geometry, seeking balance.
To claim the poly-crisis are caused by what people are taught to value is to mistake the effect for the cause. The obvious question that should have been asked is: why have people been taught in this way? The answer is simple - class interest! The capitalist class know full well that their "reign" is only possible if the majority are under an illusion that makes it possible to chain them to their wage-slavery without them becoming aware en mass of their class position and the social system that maintains their slavery. The horrible side-impacts of this social system is the destruction of the less than human world which is in turn caused by the inbuilt nature of this social-system - capital accumulation.
I have found this conversation to be totally worthless in busting the illusions.
He actually did mention that you don't see dualism in indigenous cultures. That implies western cultures maintain power through class systems, utilizing dualism, sanctifying patriarchal hierchy.
ZERO VALUE FOR LIFE
Indigenous - originating or occurring in a particular place, native.
such a pretty girl...
This is an interesting theory, namely laying the blame at the feet of Plato. The earliest Jewish traditions and Scriptures, which predate Plato by centuries, have two ideas about the role of humankind in relation to the rest of creation.
The first, in Genesis 1:26-28, is understood as the Dominion Mandate. “Be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth and have dominion over it.” This Dominion Mandate has been very popular and is deeply embedded in the Judeao-Christian tradition and practice. It also helped to lay the foundations for a narrow and distorted anthropocentric.
The second is in Genesis 2:15-17 and is sometimes referred to as the Gardener Mandate or Stewardship Mandate. “The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it.” (A literal translation of the Hebrew is “to work and to watch over”.) unfortunately, there is a lang history in Jewish and Christian practice of emphasising the Dominion Mandate whilst neglecting the Gardener/Steward Mandate. There has been a growing movement with Judaism and Christianity to correct that distortion over recent decades.
Platonic influence may be evident in early Christian theology but the roots of the issue predate Plato and are embedded in a distorted reading of Scripture and tradition. As always, there is a need for a careful and informed hermeneutic so I would contend that the blame does not lie at the feet of Plato.
It also a little disingenuous to argue against the ideal vs real Platonic distinction. Surely, we have an ideal of what a sustainable, ecologically connected world where humanity is part of a healthy whole towards which we are striving. If not, what are we writing books and doing podcasts for?
The capitalist system must go
Disappointed with the astrophysicist and cosmic community for going soft on Elon's stupid Mars nonsense. Despicable kow towing.
Honestly I think your reading of Plato Is very superficial and rudimentary. Being a student of Plato and a lover of nature I would advise to avoid such readings.and maybe to.give a look to Plato's Revenge by William Ophuls. It's not obligatory to know Plato but don't talk about It if you do not have a proper understanding of his work and rely on outdatet Reading inspired by Popper and the like.
we should go to Mars because the worlds greatest capitalist is Elon says so, and hes super rich and invents all sorts of amazing critically important things like space rockets that will take us and our pets to Mars, and he plans to make a bit from it, but wait! Theres more ! He also thought of underground highways and the amazing Tesla car [on sale now]. What Will Musk Think of Next ?
Hater of the West.
he is a jew? playing both roles :( I am 90% he is jew?
Look at us. We the technophobic. We who stand against progress and howl at the moon. We wonder how preparing to live on mars could augment our technological capabilities to limit and shrink our footprint and give back to earth. We wonder and cry. We plan to die.
Make a combustion of water machine, damn fight for LIFE!!
You 70 percent water, holy, privilege to make technology in periodical form.
Physics is unified, plug & chug electro can be taken over with least cost energy machines using water.
HOWL, 2007 legal by patent law, physics is unified.
HOWL FROM THE CAVE PLATO!!
In combat, I am looking RIGHT NOW, as climate change is creeping up on me even MORE >..
You really want to live on Mars do you? Good luck then it will be worse than any dystopian future for earth.
You can’t live on Mars. Not ever
@JMW-ci2pq by 7planes of you can live on Mars, howling for critical progress.
Plan on not dying. Do you need to get there? Earth is going die? What?
@@dermotmeuchner2416 Did he not tell us his plan already?
nonsense
I HAD TO PUT THIS SLOW TALKER ON 1.75 X ........THESE GUYS ARE NOT EXACTLY REAL SHARP.........BUT PLANET CUTIEPIE IS ALWAYS NICE
You should be grateful, but you insult. Nice job.
Hey Massengill, time to switch bottles. Give your brain another flush.
Must be sad and miserable to be you. If not personally, then at least for every intelligent person who knows you... 💩
@@iluvmuusic YOU'RE AN IGNORANT TROLL
@@bill8985 GO AWAY TROLL
Yikes!!
I didn't realize that Plato was such a delusional asshole!!
And that his dominator pov was copy-pasted into Christianity
What an eyeopener, great work !