The biggest mistake they made was not locking delves to solo-only. We don’t need more group content. They advertised Delves as solo content from the start and anytime Blizzard tries to balance scaling for multiple non-raid group sizes, it’s always a mess. You cannot have a smooth solo experience that scales up to 5-players because the bosses and mobs need to be tuned for one interrupt and Brann needs a functioning AI for all complementary roles, not just dealing damage.
I disagree, I have been playing it solo, duo, trios with friends and it's so nice to have flexible content where you can play in small groups but then work on it solo when they aren't available. That being said...I will say that at this point maybe it's best to reduce it to solo only, with only 1 version of each delve until that is tuned correctly, then work on duo, trio etc. Then start adding back in the versions. I think in classic modern day blizz fashion Delves were released with grand intentions but poor planning
L take; just because you don't have friends doesn't mean we don't have any either. Let people play a game w/ their friends how they want; it is an MMO.
@@Valvad0ss Huh? Delves were initially pitched as solo content. It’s the content for people that want to play solo. You have mythic+ if you want to play with friends. The point being, designing the content for 1-5 players was never going to work with how much worse some classes are solo and with how bad Brann’s AI is when you rely on him for interrupts and attacking specific things quickly.
Trying to do a level 8 if you're not playing a tank, you basically have to be such a high ilvl that the rewards aren't even worth it anymore. The system makes no sense.
I dunno, I just don't think this is true. I've been doing them on a balance druid, you just gotta pull slow and use your CC. The bosses are hard, but if you do the mechanics, it should be fine. Most boss high damage abilities have ways to reduce the damage that you have to figure out
Yes, I can confirm. Unplayable at an 8 as a solo priest. Going in as a group is 95% boredom and 5% terror as people are hit for almost all their health by unavoidable damage
The amount of unavoidable damage from autoattacks and chain casts is just crazy. I've been doing T8 Delves on my Unholy DK at i575-590 and while I haven't failed a single one of them yet, I feel like I might as well just switch from Unholy to Blood with the amount of Death Strike spam I have to do to not die to autoattacks.
@@CatDad312 Ah so you recomend for other people to swap to tanking or spec with healing? Especially if they don't have that option? So change whole class? What a great design.
Tier 8 delves are tuned for ilvl 600, it says so in game so it makes sense that you are get chunked, tanks have a much easier time so I would recommend you play Blood Death Knight
Tried Bountiful Tier 8 Delves solo on my WW monk, was damn near getting one shot every pull. Switched to Brewmaster, damn near got one shot. It's just terrible now.
So the sweatlords and mythic raiders with 40 friends all exploited early and got their loot and solo causal players got screwed. Sounds familiar...oh yea.. REMIX all over again.
I am just getting comfortable on my 592 HPal, where I can handle most Delves, but the two things I find most frustrating are when Brann will get aggro on a hard boss (which is great) but will then proceed to disengage out of the boss room and reset at 10% health, or he will AoE the caster mob who I locked down with repentance. I feel good about them, and they have honestly taught me a TON about using my entire healing kit and planning for predictable damage. But it is still something that will make slap my desk once in a while
I hope they sort this out! If I come back to WoW, it would be to play solo content with some kind of somewhat challenging progression system. Something where I can get a bit better week after week, but avoid having other people yell at me for my mistakes.
Fantastic rant! Perfectly on point and hilarious. Everything you said is exactly what I think and why I have not touched them. I can pug M0/M+. I actually love doing so. Almost more than running a pre-made group. I wanted a delve for solo. One add-in, if a healer is on the team, brann should take more damage but have a damage reduction when he gets low. Allows for actual healing but doesn't punish non-perfect performance.
Blizzard pushes everyone into delves by making it an easy way to get champ track gear before m+ opens while m0 is only veteran (I'm still pissed at that) raiders figure out the easiest way is to make a 3-5 man group and just run it like it's a bad dungeon , Blizz makes wild untested corrections while shouting "No you're playing it wrong".
I also think Blizz should scale the mobs according to what role you are playing. I know I am not the best player in existence, but truly had issues with tank, it took me forever with a healer to kill mobs and as a dps I drop too easy.. Great video, absolutely agree
Great breakdown. Been doing nothing but delves since launch as a solo type of person and 100% agree. Im using tanks so it is going well enough at tier 8 but i can see how it would be nearly impossible for some dps and over the last few days the delves have felt incredibly inconsistent. Sometimes too easy and sometimes way harder then they should be for a ilvl 597 Bear tank
OMG.. Thank you!! Amen, I really, really appreciate you saying this and admitting that this isn't jaut a git gud issue... Again thank you, I hope Buzz is listening
I agree with most of your points, but the reward structure is definitely up to par with heroic raid. Unless you have really bad RNG on the maps, you’ll get more Hero loot than you ever would in a single weeks raid, and the vault rewards are Hero too.
Worst thing about the delves was weird group scaling. When people saw that it was super easy in groups, they started treating delves like a loot piñata, and when blizzard took that away and made it challenging people got mad. I soloed 4 tier 8 delves on the first day after the reset, because I simply didn’t know you can do them in group. It was pretty challenging with my gear back then, but it got easier and easier everyday (never did them in group, so can’t really say how they were). They should also do something about unavoidable rot damage or massive amount of spells to interrupt if they want to make it a somewhat balanced solo content - some classes don’t have the tools to deal with that. Instead they should add more interesting avoidable damage mechanics.
I think delves are super fun. soloing bountiful as a shadow priest is one big puzzle that needs solving and I am thoroughly enjoying the process, tweaking builds, mind controlling mobs etc etc
it spooks me that this is the first vid in around 40 creators that actually brings up the fact that stuff that was made to be a catch up thing for solo players that dont want to do mything raid first week. should not have the dmg hp and bs insta kill scailing as mythic
Delves are great. If you find them easy, you are over geared, if they are hard, you are under geared. I've soloed a lot of bountiful 8s on DK, Pladin, Dh, Hunter, and Mage. Under 578 ilv it is very challenging, i had to pull one pack a time, cc mobs, wait for cds etc if you are not a tank. What you want is to gather 2-3 packs and AOE them down, now that is boring.
I don’t entirely agree that gear is the issue here when we clearly have mobs auto-attacking for millions of damage through cooldowns. I think Blizzard agrees that they messed up the tuning because tomorrow they are pushing major fixes and a 120% buff to Brann.
Thank you for making this video. This entire Delve debacle has been ridiculous. What is blizzard even trying to do now? They keep nerfing and buffing them every day. I don't even do them anymore.
Couldn't agree more with the sentiment that Blizzard just doesn't know what they want delves to be. I was still having fun with delves through every 'hotfix' this week. Figuring out ways to deal with the minibosses on 11 as a ~590 mediocre returning prot warrior was a unique and fun challenge. Anyhow the most fun I had with delves was just doing a couple 8s with the boys on the first few days. Just grab whatever friend is online regardless of skill level, role or class and have some quick fun for fairly decent gear.
Not to mention, Delved are just visually unappealing. Like i dont want every single delve to be just some fuckoff cave/mine. Oh and i wanted SOLO content like horrific visions, not Brann Babysitting content! OH AND - Most of the mechanics are just not fun.
I can see a world where these are good. I just hate dying to chain casted web bolts that I can’t even LoS and white hits. When the answer is just, get more gear, I think it’s bad. More of the damage should come from avoidable sources like frontals or soaks.
I agree with you 110%! RL took me out of Raiding & PvP! I loved Delves during EA but now they are so bad! Delves are supposed to be Solo content & grouping up should not be allowed or be a cake walk with a group if they keep that option!
fury warrior and shadow priest are my mains right now, I was able to solo T7 on both of them before all the changes were made after getting more gear and Blizzard's changes, I'm soloing T8s with a couple deaths, seems like it's in a pretty good place now that said, I definitely agree the high unavoidable damage is bad and frustrating, it would be more fun with dodgable stuff and interesting mechanics instead imbalance between specs is my biggest concern with delves having access to CC, self healing, interrupts, and defensives makes it way easier for some specs than others
As a veng DH tank solo player, Delves have been pretty fun for me, but the biggest problem I have with them is how many Blizzard expects you to do. I hear around 270 Bountiful T8 delves to complete the season 1 track. WTF is that number, They take me maybe half an hour each because I don't have massive DPS, that's over 100 hours of delves. They could cut that number down to 100 bountiful T8 delves to complete the track and that still might be too many. They could make it 50 Delves and I'd consider that to be somewhat reasonable.
I'm tired of every piece of solo content being a total joke. I don't think it's a problem that bosses take multiple minutes to kill, they should certainly add some more mechanics to the fights and reduce the damage from white swings, but they absolutely should have some teeth to them and one of WoW's severe failings for a long, long time has been the complete lack of danger outside of group-based instanced content. I've enjoyed having to use my defensives properly, using utility, sometimes having to kite, pull mobs with some strategy rather than just running in and AoEing things down. I'm afraid they're going to nerf them to be a total joke. There are 100% issues with Brann though, the implementation of follower NPCs in general has been lacking.
AND difficulty isn’t scaling up unavoidable damage to a party. Blizzard has fallen into the trap of more incoming damage means hard, but that’s only true for the healers in the party. making more attacks be telegraphed in way you can see it (EG: no blue markers on blue back drops) and if you play properly you avoid the mechanic is WAY more engaging for all players than “you just lost 90% of your HP, good luck”. They have the new animation and rigging tech they have been using for so long on everything else, why not use it to start telegraphing some of these tank busters so people can start reading what’s going on instead of just watching health bars.
Absolutely agree that delves are at a good spot right now. Im also tired of boring easy content. Great that we have to use all tools in our class kit to be able to survive.
The problem with delves is exactly as you said, they pitched it as solo content for the more casual player, with delves above level 8 which would be to push and challenge mage tower esk boss for the more hard core. Delves should require gear score above the gear being rewarded to complete. They’re way overtuned, unfun, and will basically be avoided as of tomorrow. Gg blizz.
I was doing level 8 on my ret paladin at 576 Ilvl, it was somewhat challenging but completely do able. Probably the best class for this kind of content but I will not feel that confident on my warrior or priest. I completely agree about coffee keys and feel the same way about unlimited Viking the world bosses by having to do world quest in the area first…chores is a good word for this.
They really should be for the normal gamers vs M+ pros or heavy raiders. I'm a gamer Dad around 580 ilvl that started in beta 20 years ago. I'm not going to raid or do M+ at this point in my life. Wow needs to grow with their player base we are not all in our early 20s with free time. Also fantastic points on this video and you are a different market then myself and are on topic.
Thank you, we appreciate this feedback. We feel delves miss the mark all around. They aren't what they advertised and they aren't fully something else either. Instead, they're stuck in the gray area and they aren't good.
The main issue I still have with Delves is that there are too many groups of enemies. Across delves they all act pretty much the same and they have enough hp that they take a while to kill. Elites especially take sometimes 30 - 60 seconds to kill. I wish the adds were less numerous and weaker and instead we had more bosses with interesting mechanics. But then again, probably my DPS just sucks a ton.
Just ran abyss on my warrior, and the kul tiran racial no longer works...so that's a neat new bug. That was the only thing making those under water delves bearable. They were fine day 1, great day 2, broken day 3, easy day 4, and now I don't even know what's a bug, what's a hot fix, and what's intended. It's a mess.
We have to separate the design from the implementation here. Unfortunately we don't know really what the design is meant to be, but I will argue that we cannot look at the implementation (and all the bugs, accidental and incorrect hotfixes and their results) to work backwards to what the design is. In order to make delves scale "properly" (and we don't know what that is) for every spec in the game as well as every group size and composition it seems they have built in a lot of scaling knobs that takes all of those inputs into account. Unfortunately this is so extremely complex because of how complicated this game is, they will never be able to get that right. This is something blizzard does over and over, they come up with some system they think is cool and then believe they are able to balance it, always severly underestimating the super-human amount of work that would mean.
It really isn’t complex. You make it fun how, the way people want to play. Scale things down and make it similar to maps in path of exile. And bosses should be good boss design. Frontals and avoidable damage where personal mistakes are punishing You can have it set up like tier 1-8 is normal where from 530-560 is the ilvl ranges that are acceptable with rewards reflecting that ilvl range as you go up Tier 9-12 Ilvl 560-565 So forth and on then cap it adjust drop rates to be reasonable but not unreasonable. There is ways to limit this so you’re not getting geared too much Make it fun and exciting not boring and dumb
@@AswollAlpaca The "complex" thing is that "the way people want to play" isn't just a single monolithic playstyle. You have to juggle a lot of spinning plates to create an experience meant to be enjoyable for a wide variety of different people who like different things and play in different ways.
I would like to give some perspective as somebody who is almost new to MMOs. I wasn't a MMO player at all until I got dragged into Classic Wrath when it came out a couple of years ago. It was a fun time, I did Dungeons, Raids, still I was looking for something I can do solo. I started playing FF14 and mainly did chill content: gathering, crafting, looking for cool outfits etc etc. but over the time I missed the snappy combat of WoW. I decided to give retail a try and joined almost at the end of dragonflight and damn I was hyped when I heard there is a new expansion coming with fighting content I could do solo. Not only I can do what I already love, gather mats, craft stuff with more detailed professions than in classic but also enjoy some snappy clean combat as a solo without worrying about anybodyelse? Damn I'm in. New expan released, I did the story, actually found myself enjoying dungeons, even the heroic dungeons, looking for raid and of all things I don't enjoy the delves. I'm stuck at T7 atm. with 586 ilvl, I know my rotations, I use Potions, I have Plates helping me to have a better overview about everything happening. But I'm not able to finish a T7. I can imagine for somebody who is an experieced mmo player, we don't have to talk about people who are doing the hardest content, just the casual, I'm pretty sure it's doable due the general experience. But I have a hard time doing this stuff. Mobs are oneshotting me out of nowhere, I always feel like I don't have enough kicks, there is no second I can breath within a fight. I'm not new to videogames, I grew up with them and yes I love challenges and I won't give up on trying devles but for now I have a damn hard time to see them as enjoyable content.
We have 45k hours played for each of us and we feel the same sentiments. Yes, we completed them on higher levels, but the tuning is really awful. They are not what they advertised them to be really.
Reward wise, I'm fine them making mistakes and fixing it, along with the tuning. Fundamentally the design is bad. It's a flex dungeon 1 to 4 or 5 whatever the max is. It's not really solo content, Brann is useless, there is no solo specific mechanics, no different flavour, no innovative loop. Just dungeons with a follower that are smaller and more of the same. In any case if ppl find it fun more power to them, when m+ is out, doubt anybody will care.
Yup and that's the point: it's not supposed to appeal to mythic and raid players. It's supposed to be simple enough for low-end players and casuals to solo or do in small groups, slowly. It won't be repetitive if you seldom play or if you need repetitive to learn. It's follower dungeon in heroic mode? Not easy mythic gearing. Imho.
@@isiseungella4688 Another big mistake they made is essentially forcing people to play this for progression until keys are available, as you can get Hero lvl gear with a map. So you are channeling hc people that want progression into content that is not hc designed or maybe it is, nobody knows. Like, how can you not see that this will cause problems. Also, lvl 8 in groups was laughably easy, one tank one healer and it's gg.
It literally says that anything 8+ is just for the challenge, if you dont want to do it then dont? The highest gear reward is from 8, which i think is the problem here, higher tiers should reward gear on a higher track considering how hard it is
The issue is that they marketed these as something for casual players, and some specs are struggling with lv8 because the bolt spell casts just mow them down.
I feel that the grouping aspect of the Delves kinda watered down the whole concept. Additionally, while they are overtuned they lack a specific gimmick and they are now akin to Island Expeditions. They could add multiple affixes and mechanics that would add flavour to all the runs and make the runs feel challenging and demanding more knowledge of your class and overall gameplay awareness without the need to simply power through them with sheer numbers.
Perhaps Blizzard should tone down the difficulty of every Delve Tier and spread out the gear rewards over eleven Tiers instead of just eight. That would make for a more incremental and extended progression for Delves which would give out the very best gear at the very hardest Tiers.
> The reward structure isn't up to Heroic raid Well techincally no Unless you get a Hidden Trove Then its literally HC gear Your point stands though. What on earth is the point of making 'soloable content for people not comfortable with the difficulty raids or M+' then making it raid or M+ difficult. And tuning it so clothies cant even hope to solo I'd happily take a difficulty hit if the gear capped out at 603 champ. If the Hero drop is what's driving up the difficulty just don't have it. Realistically all HC gear is good for is Mythic prog and HC Reclears anyway
As a tanker, how do you feel about the current state of Prot Paladin? I'm only a newb, but really enjoyed and was drawn immediately to Prot Paladin. I always felt like I was hitting with a pool noodle. But I was willing to put up with it because of the great damage mitigation. However, when I found out that Ret gets to use Hammer of Light TWICE as often as Prot because of it being triggered by Wake of ashes rather than Eye of Tyr, I was done. I'm now a Ret Paladin. I want to go back to Prot, but not until Blizzard gives Prot Eye of Tyr every 30 seconds. I don't know if it's deliberate, or simply oversight, but giving an already insanely strong character double the hero talent just doesn't seem fair.
Yeah, you summarized the state of Prot Pally pretty well. It has a lot of problems right now, and it is in need of some serious love. Not a lot else left to be said, it's falling behind the pack pretty hard, but it's probably going to get huge buffs in 11.0.5 and be the #1 tank before the season is all over.
The only way I can clear delves over Tier 8 as a 610 ilvl priest of any spec is to use Dominate Mind on each pack and let the enemies kill each other. It's slow, boring, and I immediately die if the mobs agro on me. Some bosses are literally impossible as they have spammable spells that hit for 1.5 million damage and I don't have a frequent interrupt. My reward is the occasional green, maybe 100g, and an purple item that's a downgrade. Nice.
Having done over 50 delves for my own key rewards, and helping guildies do their keys, etc. I can say with confidence the only way I tolerate doing them anymore is on my blood DK. Where I can just pull several packs together and mow them down while still being able to live through the stupid amounts of unavailable damage. My 606 fury warrior, and my dk as frost at 602 ilvl just can't live without struggling even pulling 1 pack at a time. With death count change to actual deaths instead of revives, I'm loathe to help less skilled friends as it might mean extra time having them afk at the start, or worse, extra reruns. I detest this system, the only saving grace is that I won't have to do it for gear soon, or for vault rewards in a couple weeks once I get my 4 set. My friend said he preferred Torghast to this. And while I don't agree fully, it's unfortunately close. Islands farm was better, because at least it was easy enough a chore to watch videos on the side and smash through them.
they need to accept that Delves are casual content. they should be around the same difficulty of dungeons. like Tier 11; normal raid difficulty Tier 8; normal dungeon difficulty Tier4/5; world quest difficulty. they shouldnt be giving the worst gear while being mythic level difficult.
as a caster in higher delves you don't have enough time to use defensive abilities + interrupt + doing damage to survive or kill anything since everything is on gcd. everything feels just so weird and one pull goes well, the other goes horribly wrong. no real baseline one could get used to. why not just make stuff deal % amount of damage no matter the difficulty. i don't like the fact that the difficulty of this mode comes down to a rng and statcheck. just feels plain awful and SO frustrating. especially you mentioning the caster adds. yeah. playing fire mage with one 20 sec interrupt and two cds (blast wave and dragonsbreath) that don't lock the enemies out from casting again just wasting gcds while you're being beat down with melee swings is so bad. don't get me even started on fire mage performance. but i think i've found a workaround. just ignore crit and go into everything else lol.
The issue i have with delves is some of the delves are not fun. I hate the exploding spores and the underwater delves. The caster mobs are annoying because if you interrupt them they immediately start casting again.
If delves are super easy now they'll be so painfully boring in the future (more than they already are anyway). T8+ delves should be tuned at least hard enough there's *something* to aspire to even if it's just knocking them out more easily in the future when we're more geared. Atm with 3 of us casual aotcers a T8 delve is a slightly spicy adventure where we have a couple deaths to frontals and silly things, have a laugh about it, lock in for final boss and go "ok nice" at the end. I think they're in a good spot there as they'll only get easier now. Bran does suck though and soloing on priest/druid etc is nightmare.
Delves aint that bad dude. its less than a month into the xpac and this is supposed to be a season long thing. sure there are some tuning things, but you cant say its Torghastified, but then also say the rewards arent good enough. those are counterpoints.
MMOs always have run into the issues of people complaining that the new content isn't for them. New PVP? Nah, I only PVE. New world content? Only the raids matter. We should delete the overworld as only M+ matters and we could have more dungeons if the devs didn't have to make a world for World of Warcraft.
@@Pinto531 i don't think thats an mmo issue, i think its an issue with the sense of entitlement that terminally online gamers feel these days. For example, this channels host (not accusing of entitlement) is smart and informed, yet even he cant analyze concerns with delves without contradicting himself, as I pointed out in my original comment. People forget Torghast was a chore for the entirety of an expansion, whereas with Delves, the only edge you will have from doing them is in the first couple of weeks. The comparison is purely a sensational one.
@@WoWatNight I feel that, but torghast was required for legendaries the entire expansion and delves will have no impact on power after today. it feels to me more like the opposite of torghast, where the experience is actually fun and the rewards aren’t required. Either way, I respect your feedback and appreciate your content.
Delves were too rewarding at the beginning of the season so had to be nerfed because blizz cant see past the end of their nose when it comes to difficulty/reward scaling
@@WoWatNight but think about week 1 of the season. Guaranteed heroic quality loot, if you had pre-order you had something like 14 keys to spend that week and it was infinitely easier than m+ that first week.
Set Bran to healer and you are all good. Im a 600 windwalker and I have zero issue solo Delves 10 as WW spec.just take your time, dont rust, rotate ur def cds and thats it, bosses and mods has like 2 mechs ? xD and when you set Bran as healer, learn to use the stuffs he has to offer. for example dont pick up all the healing pots on the floor at once, pick u 1 by 1 and you will have a realy easy time xD
Sometimes I wonder if the game would be better if it just went back to the Norm/Heroic. If u do norm u get norm gear and heroic gets u heroic gear. Mythic plus would just be timed for bragging rights to see how far u can get. Heroic +. Idk just so much balancing going wrong making the game annoying and ppl will start quitting
valorstones is the dev's "you must play this character" tax and they way way overcharge this tax since they've been created the idea. valorstones/flightstones always suck because devs just want too much homework done.
I’m not a fan of the reward structure in delves. What’s the point of rewarding ~550 ilvl gear that isn’t Warbound in higher delves where you’ll never see an upgrade? All non-bountiful loot should be Warbound imo otherwise it’s just useless vendor trash.
I personally think delves are fine. I have since they were launched. The fact is, this is a new system and will take some time to iron out. I am fine with that.
@@ITPhilK you’re okay with receiving incomplete content that takes months and months to maybe fix? That’s a maybe it could take all the way to the end of the expansion sometimes That’s why wow continues to be bad. I quit in df for a reason
Stop trolling, they can be disabled at this point. We had whole beta and they are changing delves two days after they were available? Not right away but before weekend? And later bunch of hotfixes that makes matter only worse?
my game crashes EVERY SINGLE time I enter or exit a delve, not to mention the game is beyond laggy this expansion, I've never seen it this bad before EVER.
@@WoWatNight I was afraid I was, the game acts like Im running it on a 15 year old comp, everything stutters and chugs at any major city, game constantly crashes from delves, its so weird I've never seen wow this bad before
Why only 1 boss? Why these godforsaken objectives all the time? 10min of ultra boredom so u can finally fight the boss... And those carry oxygen/light delves... Gaaawd!
It's Blizzard's eternal problem: balance. It happens in every game they make. In WoW it's complex, too many classes and too many players exploiting every mechanic. Blizz always over compensates and then the content suffers. Everything about delves feels wrong atm when you play them. Some classes are easier, others impossible to play but overall the experience truly feels off, you can see the ideas behind it but they're poorly executed. This after months of testing. Hopefully they'll find a fix soon, they better as everyone's talking about it and getting that "i'm done with this game" vibe in the air cause it's so frustrating.
A MMO shouldn't have farmable solo content that gives you really good gear. It should exist, but just not rewarding to people who do raids and m+. I'm happy for its inclusion, but it is really boring. And i bothered to do a bunch this week to see what they were like, but I think moving forward I'm never doing them again unless its like a fresh 80 new alt that a friend can just carry me through some for loot to get started
But if they say they will be easy farmable things for lower level gear, they should be that. The problem is, they aren't that and aren't fully something useful either.
I strove to get to tier 8 delves on my hunter (MM). I'm not one for group play. I was so excited that I could go for good gear on my own. Then tier 8 bountiful delves handed my butt to me. Couldn't even clear the first area of any of them. As a pve player too, delves were what I was looking forward to after finishing the level up campaign and story. Now I am considering unsubbing until they add more story content.
@@Balmarog I think waiting till the tail end of the season (or exp) to do the story content as a whole is the best solution, if you aren't into raiding or group content, the usual story or content timegates devalue the worth of subbing for the whole season, just playing/paying the last patch seems to be the best way to go in that regard since like bfa (maybe legion with the whole suramar timegate thing)
Delves were supposed to be for casuals, easy content, easy gearing, some cute transmorg for collectors, a step up from follower dungeons but still on the easy side. It wasn't supposed to be a challenge enjoyed by mythic + and heroic raiders, or a gearing place for them! But during the first 2 weeks those players had nothing to do, realised they might get gear at highest levels. Result? Casual content hijacked and it's now debated by high enders on how it needs to suit their taste and part of their gearing, it needs to be "challenging". Not happy, personally! Let the last level be a real Thorghast challenge if you absolutely must but for bragging rights only, but keep delves as easy relaxed content please. Mythics +, pvp and raiders have their mounts. Can't casual have one too eg for playing delves 100 times eg? If you want a challenge and have 20 min, do mythic + or lfr. If you are afraid casuals might get a few decent pieces of gear, then limit those to an incomplete set or with a buff that's important to world content only. But for now, they are out of the leagues of the less gifted players both in solo and group level. If you need to find the class or spec than can do delves, then find the time to level Brann, get geared enough elsewhere than world content and learn all the mechanics over the coming 3 months to manage delves, then it's not casual friendly! Thorghast was loved by high enders but hated and ignored by casuals! Too easy? So are wq, farming mats, collecting: that's the target audience! One champion item a week is something casuals had in DF, it never allowed them to invade the mythic + scene either but helped them have fun fighting rares. Hands off our lame content 😂 go play in your high end. ❤ Look awesome in tier gear, we will look wholesome in delves-morg.😂
Casual doesn't inherently mean bad. T8s should be a decent challenge given the gear ilvl. The main problem I have is making group delves significantly easier than solo. These should be solo player first focused.
its fun for me ... unpopular opinion ... But srsly ... its skill issue probably :D Blizz Community - Blizzard release hard solo content Blizz Does Blizz Community - But its hard solo content
Llarold cleared them on 11s, but that's not the point. Blizz said they were releasing something easy for people worried about group content, but then didn't make it the right difficulty for people playing at that level.
@@WoWatNight if you farm them you can get up to 3 HC(maybe more ) items per week so there is no reason for them to be easy ... "casual" players should not have a problem if they cant push D8 1st week because they are casual and they are not minmaxing ... Delves being hard is actually giving them something to look forward to and progress so they cant get to end game ... Sweaty minmaxers complaining that they have hard time finishing D11 on 1ST WEEK is really bs ... The fact that you are able to do it means that it is possible and after 3-4 weeks it will be easy af ... But 1 thing i can agree on is that group content delves are easier than solo delves is shit ... For me delves should be strictly solo content but again that is just my opinion and i dont make videos about it :) or complain in blizz forums
id genuinely rather do torghast then delves, they arent fun and they dont even have the roguelite feel of torghast to keep it somewhat entertaining or intresting to see how OP you can become. what a shit system.
Delve vault loot is very good. Too good for how easy it is. 616 is crazy and on par with +7 mythic dungeon. If they made it easier, they would need to nerf reward. Keys are also necessary to limit loot quantity.
Because not every class has the same tools both of the classes you're playing has. Also, they keep changing them. They were harder, then easier, then way harder, now nerfed x2 again.
![The State of Tanks in Week 1 [TWW S1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ssaBq9NhEJo/mqdefault.jpg)
![What’s Wrong with M+ Right Now? [TWW S1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4XrxiJDGgDY/mqdefault.jpg)
The biggest mistake they made was not locking delves to solo-only. We don’t need more group content.
They advertised Delves as solo content from the start and anytime Blizzard tries to balance scaling for multiple non-raid group sizes, it’s always a mess.
You cannot have a smooth solo experience that scales up to 5-players because the bosses and mobs need to be tuned for one interrupt and Brann needs a functioning AI for all complementary roles, not just dealing damage.
I disagree, I have been playing it solo, duo, trios with friends and it's so nice to have flexible content where you can play in small groups but then work on it solo when they aren't available.
That being said...I will say that at this point maybe it's best to reduce it to solo only, with only 1 version of each delve until that is tuned correctly, then work on duo, trio etc. Then start adding back in the versions. I think in classic modern day blizz fashion Delves were released with grand intentions but poor planning
L take; just because you don't have friends doesn't mean we don't have any either. Let people play a game w/ their friends how they want; it is an MMO.
@@Valvad0ss Huh? Delves were initially pitched as solo content. It’s the content for people that want to play solo. You have mythic+ if you want to play with friends.
The point being, designing the content for 1-5 players was never going to work with how much worse some classes are solo and with how bad Brann’s AI is when you rely on him for interrupts and attacking specific things quickly.
Not really, they were pitched as content you *could* do solo, not specifically solo content.
Trying to do a level 8 if you're not playing a tank, you basically have to be such a high ilvl that the rewards aren't even worth it anymore. The system makes no sense.
I dunno, I just don't think this is true.
I've been doing them on a balance druid, you just gotta pull slow and use your CC.
The bosses are hard, but if you do the mechanics, it should be fine. Most boss high damage abilities have ways to reduce the damage that you have to figure out
@@leeallen5132 tell that to the priests.
Yes, I can confirm. Unplayable at an 8 as a solo priest. Going in as a group is 95% boredom and 5% terror as people are hit for almost all their health by unavoidable damage
Yeah you have decent CCs and burst damage. Maybe you should try some other specs in there...
@@leeallen5132 I'm legitimately curious if/how you're able to solo Waxface in The Waterworks as a dps spec.
The amount of unavoidable damage from autoattacks and chain casts is just crazy. I've been doing T8 Delves on my Unholy DK at i575-590 and while I haven't failed a single one of them yet, I feel like I might as well just switch from Unholy to Blood with the amount of Death Strike spam I have to do to not die to autoattacks.
I would highly recommend doing Delves as Blood. It’s a lot less stressful overall and you can use Brann as your damage dealer.
@@CatDad312 Ah so you recomend for other people to swap to tanking or spec with healing? Especially if they don't have that option? So change whole class? What a great design.
@@wiziek That's not what they said but go off bro.
Tier 8 delves are tuned for ilvl 600, it says so in game so it makes sense that you are get chunked, tanks have a much easier time so I would recommend you play Blood Death Knight
Exactly. Easy for some tanks and trash for most other classes and specs.
Tried Bountiful Tier 8 Delves solo on my WW monk, was damn near getting one shot every pull. Switched to Brewmaster, damn near got one shot. It's just terrible now.
your ilevel and gears situation ? remember you arent supposed to run delves 8 below 600. they litterally say that when you enter xD
@@LeAnhThyEli 604...
The way they were advertised is not how they operate
I love the analogy of "running a blender with the lid off. It's a mess" Gonna use that for other areas of life :)
Thank you, thank you
This video should be what we need a dev to watch and fix there problems. Thank you for the video
Welcome
Dude i laughed so hard when you mentioned the simon says thing in fungal folly with 2 correct answers - that happens to me literally every time.
:)
Well said, I hope they listen because I really like delves other than these issues!!!
Yeah, we hope so too.
So the sweatlords and mythic raiders with 40 friends all exploited early and got their loot and solo causal players got screwed. Sounds familiar...oh yea.. REMIX all over again.
Maybe
I was thinking this after finishing a level 7 delve like damn people who did these early on really probably made out well just like remix.
I am just getting comfortable on my 592 HPal, where I can handle most Delves, but the two things I find most frustrating are when Brann will get aggro on a hard boss (which is great) but will then proceed to disengage out of the boss room and reset at 10% health, or he will AoE the caster mob who I locked down with repentance.
I feel good about them, and they have honestly taught me a TON about using my entire healing kit and planning for predictable damage. But it is still something that will make slap my desk once in a while
Brann is drunk
I hope they sort this out! If I come back to WoW, it would be to play solo content with some kind of somewhat challenging progression system. Something where I can get a bit better week after week, but avoid having other people yell at me for my mistakes.
That's what they said delves would be.... but....
Agree with all of your points! Why cant anything just be fun in wow.
No fun allowed
Fantastic rant! Perfectly on point and hilarious. Everything you said is exactly what I think and why I have not touched them. I can pug M0/M+. I actually love doing so. Almost more than running a pre-made group. I wanted a delve for solo. One add-in, if a healer is on the team, brann should take more damage but have a damage reduction when he gets low. Allows for actual healing but doesn't punish non-perfect performance.
Yeah that could work
So basically what I’m hearing is don’t worry about delves still. Perfect.
Basically.
Blizzard pushes everyone into delves by making it an easy way to get champ track gear before m+ opens while m0 is only veteran (I'm still pissed at that) raiders figure out the easiest way is to make a 3-5 man group and just run it like it's a bad dungeon , Blizz makes wild untested corrections while shouting "No you're playing it wrong".
Yep, 100%
I also think Blizz should scale the mobs according to what role you are playing. I know I am not the best player in existence, but truly had issues with tank, it took me forever with a healer to kill mobs and as a dps I drop too easy..
Great video, absolutely agree
Yes, yes, and yes.
Great breakdown. Been doing nothing but delves since launch as a solo type of person and 100% agree. Im using tanks so it is going well enough at tier 8 but i can see how it would be nearly impossible for some dps and over the last few days the delves have felt incredibly inconsistent. Sometimes too easy and sometimes way harder then they should be for a ilvl 597 Bear tank
They're just all over the place in terms of difficulty for other specs
If I had a dollar for every PB & H sandwich i've eaten....well....I'd have zero dollars, but that is not a dollar that I want.
Indeed.
OMG.. Thank you!! Amen, I really, really appreciate you saying this and admitting that this isn't jaut a git gud issue... Again thank you, I hope Buzz is listening
We hope so too. They did 2 nerfs today, so maybe?
I agree with most of your points, but the reward structure is definitely up to par with heroic raid. Unless you have really bad RNG on the maps, you’ll get more Hero loot than you ever would in a single weeks raid, and the vault rewards are Hero too.
But they require lots of gear for some specs, more than they drop.
Worst thing about the delves was weird group scaling. When people saw that it was super easy in groups, they started treating delves like a loot piñata, and when blizzard took that away and made it challenging people got mad. I soloed 4 tier 8 delves on the first day after the reset, because I simply didn’t know you can do them in group. It was pretty challenging with my gear back then, but it got easier and easier everyday (never did them in group, so can’t really say how they were). They should also do something about unavoidable rot damage or massive amount of spells to interrupt if they want to make it a somewhat balanced solo content - some classes don’t have the tools to deal with that. Instead they should add more interesting avoidable damage mechanics.
They changed significantly after that first day.
The ol PB&H 😂
Disgusting
I think delves are super fun. soloing bountiful as a shadow priest is one big puzzle that needs solving and I am thoroughly enjoying the process, tweaking builds, mind controlling mobs etc etc
Great, but what level?
@@WoWatNight 8
it spooks me that this is the first vid in around 40 creators that actually brings up the fact that stuff that was made to be a catch up thing for solo players that dont want to do mything raid first week. should not have the dmg hp and bs insta kill scailing as mythic
Yep, they are nothing as advertised.
Delves are great. If you find them easy, you are over geared, if they are hard, you are under geared. I've soloed a lot of bountiful 8s on DK, Pladin, Dh, Hunter, and Mage. Under 578 ilv it is very challenging, i had to pull one pack a time, cc mobs, wait for cds etc if you are not a tank. What you want is to gather 2-3 packs and AOE them down, now that is boring.
I don’t entirely agree that gear is the issue here when we clearly have mobs auto-attacking for millions of damage through cooldowns.
I think Blizzard agrees that they messed up the tuning because tomorrow they are pushing major fixes and a 120% buff to Brann.
2 nerfs in one day. Op of this thread is using classes with lots of interrupts and cooldowns and then judging delve difficulty.
@@WoWatNight My BDK with 7.2m health was struggling in T8s, using Brann as a healer is the optimal comfy way but takes a while to kill stuff.
Thank you for making this video. This entire Delve debacle has been ridiculous. What is blizzard even trying to do now? They keep nerfing and buffing them every day. I don't even do them anymore.
Yeah we stopped because it was chaos
Couldn't agree more with the sentiment that Blizzard just doesn't know what they want delves to be. I was still having fun with delves through every 'hotfix' this week.
Figuring out ways to deal with the minibosses on 11 as a ~590 mediocre returning prot warrior was a unique and fun challenge.
Anyhow the most fun I had with delves was just doing a couple 8s with the boys on the first few days. Just grab whatever friend is online regardless of skill level, role or class and have some quick fun for fairly decent gear.
Prot War has the easiest time in delves. Damage and defensives are amazing
Not to mention, Delved are just visually unappealing.
Like i dont want every single delve to be just some fuckoff cave/mine.
Oh and i wanted SOLO content like horrific visions, not Brann Babysitting content!
OH AND - Most of the mechanics are just not fun.
Yeah, not good.
I can see a world where these are good. I just hate dying to chain casted web bolts that I can’t even LoS and white hits. When the answer is just, get more gear, I think it’s bad. More of the damage should come from avoidable sources like frontals or soaks.
Tuning is very needed
I agree with you 110%! RL took me out of Raiding & PvP! I loved Delves during EA but now they are so bad! Delves are supposed to be Solo content & grouping up should not be allowed or be a cake walk with a group if they keep that option!
Maybe not a cakewalk, but easier
fury warrior and shadow priest are my mains right now, I was able to solo T7 on both of them before all the changes were made
after getting more gear and Blizzard's changes, I'm soloing T8s with a couple deaths, seems like it's in a pretty good place now
that said, I definitely agree the high unavoidable damage is bad and frustrating, it would be more fun with dodgable stuff and interesting mechanics instead
imbalance between specs is my biggest concern with delves
having access to CC, self healing, interrupts, and defensives makes it way easier for some specs than others
Yeah, absolutely unbalanced across specs
As a veng DH tank solo player, Delves have been pretty fun for me, but the biggest problem I have with them is how many Blizzard expects you to do. I hear around 270 Bountiful T8 delves to complete the season 1 track. WTF is that number, They take me maybe half an hour each because I don't have massive DPS, that's over 100 hours of delves.
They could cut that number down to 100 bountiful T8 delves to complete the track and that still might be too many. They could make it 50 Delves and I'd consider that to be somewhat reasonable.
I'm tired of every piece of solo content being a total joke. I don't think it's a problem that bosses take multiple minutes to kill, they should certainly add some more mechanics to the fights and reduce the damage from white swings, but they absolutely should have some teeth to them and one of WoW's severe failings for a long, long time has been the complete lack of danger outside of group-based instanced content. I've enjoyed having to use my defensives properly, using utility, sometimes having to kite, pull mobs with some strategy rather than just running in and AoEing things down. I'm afraid they're going to nerf them to be a total joke. There are 100% issues with Brann though, the implementation of follower NPCs in general has been lacking.
I would prefer 2 minute fight with cool mechanics rather than 5 minute fight with no danger you know you’ll win eventually ugh
AND difficulty isn’t scaling up unavoidable damage to a party. Blizzard has fallen into the trap of more incoming damage means hard, but that’s only true for the healers in the party. making more attacks be telegraphed in way you can see it (EG: no blue markers on blue back drops) and if you play properly you avoid the mechanic is WAY more engaging for all players than “you just lost 90% of your HP, good luck”. They have the new animation and rigging tech they have been using for so long on everything else, why not use it to start telegraphing some of these tank busters so people can start reading what’s going on instead of just watching health bars.
Idk man, auto attacks hitting for millions and unavoidable damage seems like a cheap way for difficulty.
Brann plays like he's drunk.
Absolutely agree that delves are at a good spot right now. Im also tired of boring easy content. Great that we have to use all tools in our class kit to be able to survive.
The problem with delves is exactly as you said, they pitched it as solo content for the more casual player, with delves above level 8 which would be to push and challenge mage tower esk boss for the more hard core.
Delves should require gear score above the gear being rewarded to complete. They’re way overtuned, unfun, and will basically be avoided as of tomorrow. Gg blizz.
Yeah, they **shouldn't** require gear above what they drop.
We see things in different way I guess. Valid points though. I hope somebody at Blizzard gets to see this.
We hope so too
I was doing level 8 on my ret paladin at 576 Ilvl, it was somewhat challenging but completely do able. Probably the best class for this kind of content but I will not feel that confident on my warrior or priest. I completely agree about coffee keys and feel the same way about unlimited Viking the world bosses by having to do world quest in the area first…chores is a good word for this.
prot warrior is free loot
Yeah Prot war is ezpz
They really should be for the normal gamers vs M+ pros or heavy raiders. I'm a gamer Dad around 580 ilvl that started in beta 20 years ago. I'm not going to raid or do M+ at this point in my life. Wow needs to grow with their player base we are not all in our early 20s with free time. Also fantastic points on this video and you are a different market then myself and are on topic.
Thank you, we appreciate this feedback. We feel delves miss the mark all around. They aren't what they advertised and they aren't fully something else either. Instead, they're stuck in the gray area and they aren't good.
The main issue I still have with Delves is that there are too many groups of enemies.
Across delves they all act pretty much the same and they have enough hp that they take a while to kill. Elites especially take sometimes 30 - 60 seconds to kill.
I wish the adds were less numerous and weaker and instead we had more bosses with interesting mechanics.
But then again, probably my DPS just sucks a ton.
Yep, and too much casting
Really apreciate your videos! Can you share your UI blizz strings? Really like it
Haven't changed much since DF UI. ua-cam.com/video/7LwO1BuIb5U/v-deo.html
Just ran abyss on my warrior, and the kul tiran racial no longer works...so that's a neat new bug. That was the only thing making those under water delves bearable.
They were fine day 1, great day 2, broken day 3, easy day 4, and now I don't even know what's a bug, what's a hot fix, and what's intended. It's a mess.
Indeed!
You are running lvl 8 delves with item level around 600. Most of us are sitting at 560-575 range which makes a big difference.
Correction, we're running Lv11 delves now. But that doesn't mean we don't see all the problems with delves as a whole.
more ppl need to watch this man
We'd love if you share with friends!
We have to separate the design from the implementation here. Unfortunately we don't know really what the design is meant to be, but I will argue that we cannot look at the implementation (and all the bugs, accidental and incorrect hotfixes and their results) to work backwards to what the design is. In order to make delves scale "properly" (and we don't know what that is) for every spec in the game as well as every group size and composition it seems they have built in a lot of scaling knobs that takes all of those inputs into account. Unfortunately this is so extremely complex because of how complicated this game is, they will never be able to get that right. This is something blizzard does over and over, they come up with some system they think is cool and then believe they are able to balance it, always severly underestimating the super-human amount of work that would mean.
It really isn’t complex. You make it fun how, the way people want to play.
Scale things down and make it similar to maps in path of exile. And bosses should be good boss design. Frontals and avoidable damage where personal mistakes are punishing
You can have it set up like tier 1-8 is normal where from 530-560 is the ilvl ranges that are acceptable with rewards reflecting that ilvl range as you go up
Tier 9-12
Ilvl 560-565
So forth and on then cap it adjust drop rates to be reasonable but not unreasonable. There is ways to limit this so you’re not getting geared too much
Make it fun and exciting not boring and dumb
@@AswollAlpaca The "complex" thing is that "the way people want to play" isn't just a single monolithic playstyle. You have to juggle a lot of spinning plates to create an experience meant to be enjoyable for a wide variety of different people who like different things and play in different ways.
Speculations aside it isn't a good experience right now
I would like to give some perspective as somebody who is almost new to MMOs.
I wasn't a MMO player at all until I got dragged into Classic Wrath when it came out a couple of years ago. It was a fun time, I did Dungeons, Raids, still I was looking for something I can do solo. I started playing FF14 and mainly did chill content: gathering, crafting, looking for cool outfits etc etc. but over the time I missed the snappy combat of WoW. I decided to give retail a try and joined almost at the end of dragonflight and damn I was hyped when I heard there is a new expansion coming with fighting content I could do solo. Not only I can do what I already love, gather mats, craft stuff with more detailed professions than in classic but also enjoy some snappy clean combat as a solo without worrying about anybodyelse? Damn I'm in.
New expan released, I did the story, actually found myself enjoying dungeons, even the heroic dungeons, looking for raid and of all things I don't enjoy the delves.
I'm stuck at T7 atm. with 586 ilvl, I know my rotations, I use Potions, I have Plates helping me to have a better overview about everything happening. But I'm not able to finish a T7.
I can imagine for somebody who is an experieced mmo player, we don't have to talk about people who are doing the hardest content, just the casual, I'm pretty sure it's doable due the general experience. But I have a hard time doing this stuff. Mobs are oneshotting me out of nowhere, I always feel like I don't have enough kicks, there is no second I can breath within a fight. I'm not new to videogames, I grew up with them and yes I love challenges and I won't give up on trying devles but for now I have a damn hard time to see them as enjoyable content.
We have 45k hours played for each of us and we feel the same sentiments. Yes, we completed them on higher levels, but the tuning is really awful. They are not what they advertised them to be really.
Reward wise, I'm fine them making mistakes and fixing it, along with the tuning.
Fundamentally the design is bad. It's a flex dungeon 1 to 4 or 5 whatever the max is. It's not really solo content, Brann is useless, there is no solo specific mechanics, no different flavour, no innovative loop. Just dungeons with a follower that are smaller and more of the same.
In any case if ppl find it fun more power to them, when m+ is out, doubt anybody will care.
Yup and that's the point: it's not supposed to appeal to mythic and raid players. It's supposed to be simple enough for low-end players and casuals to solo or do in small groups, slowly. It won't be repetitive if you seldom play or if you need repetitive to learn. It's follower dungeon in heroic mode? Not easy mythic gearing. Imho.
But it's not easy for most specs
@@WoWatNight Yeah if you're not a tank lol good luck. Just bad design in the delves all round.
@@isiseungella4688
Another big mistake they made is essentially forcing people to play this for progression until keys are available, as you can get Hero lvl gear with a map. So you are channeling hc people that want progression into content that is not hc designed or maybe it is, nobody knows. Like, how can you not see that this will cause problems.
Also, lvl 8 in groups was laughably easy, one tank one healer and it's gg.
This is like Shadowlands procedural generated dungeons all over again :(
Haha yeah kinda
Bran feels more like a tank when i do delves since he keeps aggroing stuff
lol
So one thing worth pointing out to people is that you still get champion gear from a Tier 7 and heroic vault.
ok
It literally says that anything 8+ is just for the challenge, if you dont want to do it then dont? The highest gear reward is from 8, which i think is the problem here, higher tiers should reward gear on a higher track considering how hard it is
The issue is that they marketed these as something for casual players, and some specs are struggling with lv8 because the bolt spell casts just mow them down.
As a solo player most of the time... Delves are the most fun I've had in WoW.
great...
I feel that the grouping aspect of the Delves kinda watered down the whole concept. Additionally, while they are overtuned they lack a specific gimmick and they are now akin to Island Expeditions. They could add multiple affixes and mechanics that would add flavour to all the runs and make the runs feel challenging and demanding more knowledge of your class and overall gameplay awareness without the need to simply power through them with sheer numbers.
Good points
Perhaps Blizzard should tone down the difficulty of every Delve Tier and spread out the gear rewards over eleven Tiers instead of just eight. That would make for a more incremental and extended progression for Delves which would give out the very best gear at the very hardest Tiers.
And stop requiring gear above what the delve drops for some specs to be able to complete the objective.
> The reward structure isn't up to Heroic raid
Well techincally no
Unless you get a Hidden Trove
Then its literally HC gear
Your point stands though. What on earth is the point of making 'soloable content for people not comfortable with the difficulty raids or M+' then making it raid or M+ difficult. And tuning it so clothies cant even hope to solo
I'd happily take a difficulty hit if the gear capped out at 603 champ. If the Hero drop is what's driving up the difficulty just don't have it. Realistically all HC gear is good for is Mythic prog and HC Reclears anyway
Indeed on all fronts
I like your valor stone idea. I would also like to see t8 delves be more soloable.
Thank you!
Great introspective. And I agree.. wholly.
Thank you!
There are times when Brann will take 100% threat until he dies. Even taunts don't give the tank threat over the mobs.
He's drunk we think
Brann sometimes does insane damage, and solo everything or he does 0 damage for me
He plays drunk
Yeah I'm going back to raiding.
And maybe attempt some mythic 0 for gear I'm going to just craft it..
Sounds about right
As a tanker, how do you feel about the current state of Prot Paladin? I'm only a newb, but really enjoyed and was drawn immediately to Prot Paladin. I always felt like I was hitting with a pool noodle. But I was willing to put up with it because of the great damage mitigation. However, when I found out that Ret gets to use Hammer of Light TWICE as often as Prot because of it being triggered by Wake of ashes rather than Eye of Tyr, I was done. I'm now a Ret Paladin. I want to go back to Prot, but not until Blizzard gives Prot Eye of Tyr every 30 seconds. I don't know if it's deliberate, or simply oversight, but giving an already insanely strong character double the hero talent just doesn't seem fair.
Yeah, you summarized the state of Prot Pally pretty well. It has a lot of problems right now, and it is in need of some serious love. Not a lot else left to be said, it's falling behind the pack pretty hard, but it's probably going to get huge buffs in 11.0.5 and be the #1 tank before the season is all over.
The only way I can clear delves over Tier 8 as a 610 ilvl priest of any spec is to use Dominate Mind on each pack and let the enemies kill each other. It's slow, boring, and I immediately die if the mobs agro on me. Some bosses are literally impossible as they have spammable spells that hit for 1.5 million damage and I don't have a frequent interrupt. My reward is the occasional green, maybe 100g, and an purple item that's a downgrade. Nice.
Exactly. They are not great for real upgrades. Maybe for LFR heroes, but not much else.
Having done over 50 delves for my own key rewards, and helping guildies do their keys, etc. I can say with confidence the only way I tolerate doing them anymore is on my blood DK. Where I can just pull several packs together and mow them down while still being able to live through the stupid amounts of unavailable damage. My 606 fury warrior, and my dk as frost at 602 ilvl just can't live without struggling even pulling 1 pack at a time.
With death count change to actual deaths instead of revives, I'm loathe to help less skilled friends as it might mean extra time having them afk at the start, or worse, extra reruns.
I detest this system, the only saving grace is that I won't have to do it for gear soon, or for vault rewards in a couple weeks once I get my 4 set.
My friend said he preferred Torghast to this. And while I don't agree fully, it's unfortunately close. Islands farm was better, because at least it was easy enough a chore to watch videos on the side and smash through them.
Oh yeah we feel the torghast vibe
they need to accept that Delves are casual content. they should be around the same difficulty of dungeons. like
Tier 11; normal raid difficulty
Tier 8; normal dungeon difficulty
Tier4/5; world quest difficulty.
they shouldnt be giving the worst gear while being mythic level difficult.
Literally just not do what they're doing now
I have a theroy they made delves super hard cause people were gearing way to fast to get ready for mythic raid and they will nerf them agian after
Should have just listened to feedback during beta.
as a caster in higher delves you don't have enough time to use defensive abilities + interrupt + doing damage to survive or kill anything since everything is on gcd.
everything feels just so weird and one pull goes well, the other goes horribly wrong. no real baseline one could get used to. why not just make stuff deal % amount of damage no matter the difficulty. i don't like the fact that the difficulty of this mode comes down to a rng and statcheck. just feels plain awful and SO frustrating. especially you mentioning the caster adds. yeah. playing fire mage with one 20 sec interrupt and two cds (blast wave and dragonsbreath) that don't lock the enemies out from casting again just wasting gcds while you're being beat down with melee swings is so bad.
don't get me even started on fire mage performance. but i think i've found a workaround. just ignore crit and go into everything else lol.
The amount of spellcasts you can't interrupt is just horrible, we know
I noticed a "Better Chat" tab in your UI. What's that?
No trade chat is all
The issue i have with delves is some of the delves are not fun. I hate the exploding spores and the underwater delves. The caster mobs are annoying because if you interrupt them they immediately start casting again.
yep, yep, and yep.
Take any idea - good or bad - and Blizzard 'will more than likely' make an absolute bollocks of it.
Sometimes
If delves are super easy now they'll be so painfully boring in the future (more than they already are anyway). T8+ delves should be tuned at least hard enough there's *something* to aspire to even if it's just knocking them out more easily in the future when we're more geared. Atm with 3 of us casual aotcers a T8 delve is a slightly spicy adventure where we have a couple deaths to frontals and silly things, have a laugh about it, lock in for final boss and go "ok nice" at the end. I think they're in a good spot there as they'll only get easier now. Bran does suck though and soloing on priest/druid etc is nightmare.
Too late, already boring
Delves aint that bad dude. its less than a month into the xpac and this is supposed to be a season long thing. sure there are some tuning things, but you cant say its Torghastified, but then also say the rewards arent good enough. those are counterpoints.
MMOs always have run into the issues of people complaining that the new content isn't for them.
New PVP? Nah, I only PVE.
New world content? Only the raids matter.
We should delete the overworld as only M+ matters and we could have more dungeons if the devs didn't have to make a world for World of Warcraft.
@@Pinto531 i don't think thats an mmo issue, i think its an issue with the sense of entitlement that terminally online gamers feel these days. For example, this channels host (not accusing of entitlement) is smart and informed, yet even he cant analyze concerns with delves without contradicting himself, as I pointed out in my original comment. People forget Torghast was a chore for the entirety of an expansion, whereas with Delves, the only edge you will have from doing them is in the first couple of weeks. The comparison is purely a sensational one.
The rewards aren't good enough for time spent by many specs. That isn't a contradiction.
@@WoWatNight I feel that, but torghast was required for legendaries the entire expansion and delves will have no impact on power after today. it feels to me more like the opposite of torghast, where the experience is actually fun and the rewards aren’t required. Either way, I respect your feedback and appreciate your content.
I was lucky to gear up through delves at first 3 days to 600 iLvl. Now I cant finish it lol
Yeah, us too on the gear.
Brann's worst quality is he always breaks crowd control. Unacceptable! I wish sometimes I could leave him behind.
Delves were too rewarding at the beginning of the season so had to be nerfed because blizz cant see past the end of their nose when it comes to difficulty/reward scaling
Delves have normal quality gear on a semi repeatable basis and heroic from cache. Mythic+ gives spammable heroic gear.
@@WoWatNight but think about week 1 of the season. Guaranteed heroic quality loot, if you had pre-order you had something like 14 keys to spend that week and it was infinitely easier than m+ that first week.
Set Bran to healer and you are all good. Im a 600 windwalker and I have zero issue solo Delves 10 as WW spec.just take your time, dont rust, rotate ur def cds and thats it, bosses and mods has like 2 mechs ? xD and when you set Bran as healer, learn to use the stuffs he has to offer. for example dont pick up all the healing pots on the floor at once, pick u 1 by 1 and you will have a realy easy time xD
We aren't saying they are impossible, we're saying they didn't deliver what they said delves should be.
Sometimes I wonder if the game would be better if it just went back to the Norm/Heroic. If u do norm u get norm gear and heroic gets u heroic gear. Mythic plus would just be timed for bragging rights to see how far u can get. Heroic +. Idk just so much balancing going wrong making the game annoying and ppl will start quitting
Don't let the Mythic plus crews hear you!
valorstones is the dev's "you must play this character" tax and they way way overcharge this tax since they've been created the idea. valorstones/flightstones always suck because devs just want too much homework done.
YUP!
I’m not a fan of the reward structure in delves. What’s the point of rewarding ~550 ilvl gear that isn’t Warbound in higher delves where you’ll never see an upgrade?
All non-bountiful loot should be Warbound imo otherwise it’s just useless vendor trash.
For the most part, yea
I personally think delves are fine. I have since they were launched. The fact is, this is a new system and will take some time to iron out. I am fine with that.
@@ITPhilK you’re okay with receiving incomplete content that takes months and months to maybe fix? That’s a maybe it could take all the way to the end of the expansion sometimes
That’s why wow continues to be bad. I quit in df for a reason
How can you be fine being a beta tester for a game for which you payed and also have a subscription?
Stop trolling, they can be disabled at this point. We had whole beta and they are changing delves two days after they were available? Not right away but before weekend? And later bunch of hotfixes that makes matter only worse?
Yikes. Well, we want something better.
my game crashes EVERY SINGLE time I enter or exit a delve, not to mention the game is beyond laggy this expansion, I've never seen it this bad before EVER.
Unfortunately, you are not alone!
@@WoWatNight I was afraid I was, the game acts like Im running it on a 15 year old comp, everything stutters and chugs at any major city, game constantly crashes from delves, its so weird I've never seen wow this bad before
Why only 1 boss? Why these godforsaken objectives all the time? 10min of ultra boredom so u can finally fight the boss... And those carry oxygen/light delves... Gaaawd!
Quite tedious!
I hate this, Gather 5 of these to create this thing before you can do anything...
Yeah that system is so annoying
Bring back whoever made the mage tower for solo play!! Because they've clearly been gone or tasked on something else, haha
Likely laid off
Dealer built for people that solo content and want a little challenge not for people that like mythic plus
They are not properly scaled for many specs.
It's Blizzard's eternal problem: balance. It happens in every game they make. In WoW it's complex, too many classes and too many players exploiting every mechanic. Blizz always over compensates and then the content suffers. Everything about delves feels wrong atm when you play them. Some classes are easier, others impossible to play but overall the experience truly feels off, you can see the ideas behind it but they're poorly executed. This after months of testing. Hopefully they'll find a fix soon, they better as everyone's talking about it and getting that "i'm done with this game" vibe in the air cause it's so frustrating.
Yeah, they're still not good at it.
A MMO shouldn't have farmable solo content that gives you really good gear. It should exist, but just not rewarding to people who do raids and m+. I'm happy for its inclusion, but it is really boring. And i bothered to do a bunch this week to see what they were like, but I think moving forward I'm never doing them again unless its like a fresh 80 new alt that a friend can just carry me through some for loot to get started
But if they say they will be easy farmable things for lower level gear, they should be that. The problem is, they aren't that and aren't fully something useful either.
I've done a total of 3 delves the entire expansion... Nice try on the single player mode in an MMO Blizzzard, but not for me.
Yeah, we will likely avoid them for the most part
Unless you spend a key the rewards are complete trash.
Yep
I’m loving the challenge. It lets people experience difficulty with the pressure of failing teammates in group content.
But it's not working for many classes
I strove to get to tier 8 delves on my hunter (MM). I'm not one for group play. I was so excited that I could go for good gear on my own. Then tier 8 bountiful delves handed my butt to me. Couldn't even clear the first area of any of them. As a pve player too, delves were what I was looking forward to after finishing the level up campaign and story. Now I am considering unsubbing until they add more story content.
Well they sent out 2 nerfs today at least
@@WoWatNight and that makes me worry that I'm using the wrong tactics. :p
@@Balmarog I think waiting till the tail end of the season (or exp) to do the story content as a whole is the best solution, if you aren't into raiding or group content, the usual story or content timegates devalue the worth of subbing for the whole season, just playing/paying the last patch seems to be the best way to go in that regard since like bfa (maybe legion with the whole suramar timegate thing)
Web bolt. Web bolt. Web bo...dead
web bolt
Should be single person run.
Or at least easier for many specs
Delves were supposed to be for casuals, easy content, easy gearing, some cute transmorg for collectors, a step up from follower dungeons but still on the easy side. It wasn't supposed to be a challenge enjoyed by mythic + and heroic raiders, or a gearing place for them! But during the first 2 weeks those players had nothing to do, realised they might get gear at highest levels. Result? Casual content hijacked and it's now debated by high enders on how it needs to suit their taste and part of their gearing, it needs to be "challenging". Not happy, personally! Let the last level be a real Thorghast challenge if you absolutely must but for bragging rights only, but keep delves as easy relaxed content please. Mythics +, pvp and raiders have their mounts. Can't casual have one too eg for playing delves 100 times eg? If you want a challenge and have 20 min, do mythic + or lfr. If you are afraid casuals might get a few decent pieces of gear, then limit those to an incomplete set or with a buff that's important to world content only. But for now, they are out of the leagues of the less gifted players both in solo and group level. If you need to find the class or spec than can do delves, then find the time to level Brann, get geared enough elsewhere than world content and learn all the mechanics over the coming 3 months to manage delves, then it's not casual friendly! Thorghast was loved by high enders but hated and ignored by casuals! Too easy? So are wq, farming mats, collecting: that's the target audience! One champion item a week is something casuals had in DF, it never allowed them to invade the mythic + scene either but helped them have fun fighting rares. Hands off our lame content 😂 go play in your high end. ❤ Look awesome in tier gear, we will look wholesome in delves-morg.😂
Casual doesn't inherently mean bad. T8s should be a decent challenge given the gear ilvl. The main problem I have is making group delves significantly easier than solo. These should be solo player first focused.
Decent points
its fun for me ... unpopular opinion ...
But srsly ... its skill issue probably :D
Blizz Community - Blizzard release hard solo content
Blizz Does
Blizz Community - But its hard solo content
Llarold cleared them on 11s, but that's not the point. Blizz said they were releasing something easy for people worried about group content, but then didn't make it the right difficulty for people playing at that level.
@@WoWatNight if you farm them you can get up to 3 HC(maybe more ) items per week so there is no reason for them to be easy ... "casual" players should not have a problem if they cant push D8 1st week because they are casual and they are not minmaxing ... Delves being hard is actually giving them something to look forward to and progress so they cant get to end game ... Sweaty minmaxers complaining that they have hard time finishing D11 on 1ST WEEK is really bs ... The fact that you are able to do it means that it is possible and after 3-4 weeks it will be easy af ... But 1 thing i can agree on is that group content delves are easier than solo delves is shit ... For me delves should be strictly solo content
but again that is just my opinion and i dont make videos about it :) or complain in blizz forums
ok
id genuinely rather do torghast then delves, they arent fun and they dont even have the roguelite feel of torghast to keep it somewhat entertaining or intresting to see how OP you can become. what a shit system.
Yeah, they're pretty lackluster, even if they were easier, they aren't fun
maybe wow players tend to ruin everything they touch
We think you misspelled 'developers.'
😂😂😂😂😂😂..make sure not insane 😮😮😮😮😮
not insane
this expansion is such a mess
Some aspects are, for sure.
Delve vault loot is very good. Too good for how easy it is. 616 is crazy and on par with +7 mythic dungeon. If they made it easier, they would need to nerf reward. Keys are also necessary to limit loot quantity.
Lol missing the point
I'm having a lot of fun in delves consistently. If your having too much trouble in high teir then you should do the lower teirs.
Only at rank 11 if you're a tank or a very tanky spec of another class. Otherwise we do not believe you. Llarold's logs are public, have a look.
blizzard is so stupid im done...i should never gave them a chance
we understand
been soloing t8 on both mage and druid since they dropped. Idk why everyone is crying.
Because not every class has the same tools both of the classes you're playing has. Also, they keep changing them. They were harder, then easier, then way harder, now nerfed x2 again.