For the people who are interested I made the data of my msup census public: Heartlands Msup Census docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15wS_g3uWNTzvtdiVy5uQX9PxK5wuNoHS10Sn_9HvEik/edit?usp=sharing Ashfields Msup Census docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MUkK6AMD18d7QcCSSyob6pUWVMyE4_Zu50ZTUh9eKuk/edit?usp=sharing Red River Msup Census docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jtpoI8_1qE4jKpcveycZn4r22r8VF12MhyUK1X3yXPU/edit?usp=sharing
Thanks! I always start enthusiastically with all kinds of crazy visuals only to realize that I now have to keep it up throughout the video. Sometimes I hate my past self for that, as I assume a whole bunch of facility builders do as well :D (their past self, not me)
It's like my third day of playing foxhole and all I can say is I was startled by the sheer amount of player built structures sitting on idle unused. And I didn't even know about maintenance costs. Also so many built private, kinda makes me wish for an all public game mode.
Amazing video, very high quality. I like how you talked about the whole 5 factories producing all msups for a region. In this game so many resources are wasted in supplies that sit in private stockpiles, never to be used again, and lots of facilities build the same buildings the one next door has. If clans could find a way of working together, the entirety of LOGI would become a lot less tedious, as not as many supplies would have to be made.
I think the most helpful thing you can do when creating a facility is to outline what you want to do with it and if you can find someone else or somewhere else that does that better. I've made a few facilities now and each time I've had to reorganize things as I was building it because I realized I could cut down on Msupp costs by sourcing something from somewhere else. I don't build coal refineries anymore because public coal fields will give me free coke, I don't build large assemblers or waste time on having many assembly pads when I don't use them because my regiment already has a facility for upgrading tanks, instead I just focus on producing what isn't being covered by public facilities or my regiment. It just doesn't make much sense to waste your time on upkeep for structures that are already covered by someone else, any time you spend transporting those materials is easily time made back by the substantially lower msupp costs and stress
I've always strived for the smallest possible foundation with as many things as I can cram into it. Experimentation has yielded favorable results, but this method is only good for decreasing the number of foundations one might need, the biggest culprit of msupp consumption. This video did give me some useful tid bits that might save me from the stress next time I do this. I will keep tabs on this channel.
I can't really stress enough how helpfull foxholeplanner can be when coming up with facilities. Also a good time to try out some efficient facility builds might be Resistance Phase
Thanks! Yeah Facilities are a beast of their own. And like anything in Foxhole has a pretty steep learning curve that has a lot of pitfalls at the beginning stages.
At this point anyone that wants to set up a facility they should really be using the foxhole planner online, also if your solo or small scale you only really only need one of each building, you can easily make a facility capable of making battle tanks with a foundation footprint of 3x6 and have atleast 2 small pads (depending number of petrol stations ya want, I like one personally) in order to make it like this ya need to be willing to just use fuel containers for heavy oil for the metalworks which really isn't a problem. bigger groups with players on all the time can defo go bigger but ya always want to make it a quick job (keep big trains in mind for this) with first area being for basic production of c-mats, coal coke, maintance supplies then just next to it in range of your small gauge your ass-mats area then you pads for vics just beyond that. always build within your means and have a clear goal in mind before planning your facility or you just gonna end up endlessly feeding the beast and not really helping the factions effort. last thing people with facility's work hard on them so it your looking to mod a vic ask around before just using someone facility without permission keeps everyone happy.
foxholeplanner is a god sent. Sure it's not perfect but boy does it help people to realize things about facilities. And yes, unless explicitly stated, never use somebodies upgrade pads without asking if you can
3x6 is huge man, and thats the bare minimum of production, youre better off joining a group and being extra manpower for a better design by someone who knows what theyre doing
One topic I wish was addressed beside msup consumption is LOCATION. It is literally game throwing when people build their facility on top of a necessary strategic choke point, because they didn't want to pipe or run rails from the 'devman bad' resource field to behind defenses. They just plop their facility directly on top of the resource, and then partisan man has fun, QRF man pulls their hair out, and then the enemy frontman walks past it for an easy win. I cannot name the amount of times a bridge was compromised because playerman bad built a useless facility there was already tons of around, instead of a bunker base.
I do agree that a lot of facilities are placed badly, but that also is a matter of opinion not of numbers I think. You say they block a chokepoint andthey shouldn't (you're right) They say they need to build there for high efficiency (and they are right as well) But yeah, facilities get build in chokepoints, around resource fields blocking other players out, around resource mines making it near impossible to reach them etc etc. But that's the beauty and frustration of sandbox games, anything is possible
First of all, great video. Although I knew many of the things you explained (because just like you I had to suffer through the little information the game provides to those who want to dive deep) I still managed to learn much. You mentioned possible improvents to the system that could come from devs like the structures actually maintained, but there is one I would love to have which is "allow/disallow this structure to consume msups". This way, you can get rid of those things you don't want anymore in the middle of your facilities and cannot be destroyed even by the original builder (and you don't have enough people to flag it disruptive). Overall, thanks again for making a vid on this.
Us at HAULR have been doing an order system to supply groups. They drop off a prearranged amount of comps and they drive off in a BT/BTD/SHT or any other facility vehicle. The small bases nearby making a small train and a single BT served no purpose in comparison and got partisaned constantly. We hope next war we can make this fact known in the region and have solo/small groups cooperate with us so that everyone can get what they want. Might even do a Facility seminar for people to learn
I was in the 87inf squad to help repair their bunker at Westmarch in the early days. But yeah, people cooperating inbetween clans/groups is always good to see. At this point I don't think a Facility seminar will cut it though, it's going to be a full on PhD course :D
Honestly, Foxhole should pay you for how useful your videos are. Thank you Freerk, I've learned more about how to play this game from you than from any other source (although the Wiki is also very helpful).
This is extremely important and helpful, you literally did an Academic Research to get those data! Thank you again for taking care of these kind of problem, because it seems that everyone is complaining and no one does something. You are really appreciated
Great to see such a well put together video describing the problems in an easy to digest manner. Hopefully people start paying attention and work through facilities in a more organised and efficient manner.
Спасибо! Всегда приятно слышать, что это было полезно для людей. I used Google translate for this so I hope it says what I wanted, in case it didn't: "Thanks! Always good to hear it has been helpfull to people"
Good way to display one of great ideas to run game efficiently which greatly contributes to wining whole thing. In nutshell you need maximised mining so you use all accessible resources then efficient producers who wont burn it in garrison supplies on 1x1 foundations and el. pole forrests followed by logi which can use large trucks and trains or ships so frontline can conquer something with minimal costs per BB especialy if they dont bleed resources and can recover part of lost equipment Otherwise it might get "unsustainable"
I think the problem is that the majority of players come to Foxhole for the combat, not realizing that for a hex to be constantly operating at max efficiency there needs to be a large and coordinated network of logi workers, usually 2-3 for every player at the front. The 27th is currently suffering from this issue, as our structure is currently an inverted pyramid. Most of our members are running combat duties while our small but very capable logi division is handling the backend.
It's the fun part of showing new players around in the backlines. Hearing them have the realization of how much works goes into all the stuff they just used up at their bridge battle is priceless.
Split the clan in two - those who prepeare tanks and ammunition, then use it, and those who do superheavies/trains/other logi stuff-supply That's what we did in our END clan at least, I don't know if that'll give some idea to your leader But yea, our people are universal in many ways, all of us have preferences, but we do make sure to use the most of everyone Maybe that's the reason behind your frustration I once saw a guy in NOD regiment demanding a logi player to bring something, nearly shouting It's a pain to have such people in your clan, so we've never had them at all After all we do this for fun, don't we?
@@Van_of_the_lake I was trying to introduce the same reasoning to my clan. Healthy and balanced relationship with the game, which in practice means sharing the burden of work required to make things happen. Oh boy, the resistance and backlash I got for such controversial proposition. Long story short the clan no longer exists. I wonder why. All I want to say is I wish more people could understand that mindset instead of playing foxhole like world of tanks or PUBG. Nothing is free in Foxhole.
I think the only real way to solve this problem is to introduce a new man, and that is 'Moffman'. Just like how the Empire in Star Wars had sector Moffs, there needs to be a person dedicated to making sure clanman and playerman don't do bad. When they ask for a flag for obstructive placement, they need to get it ASAP. Time is wasted waiting for bad facilities to rot, when you need good builds and good defenses NOW. Moffman however, when given all this power, is also expected to supply bases constructed under their direct orders. If their bases rot away, Moffman should lose their position.
And just as in Empire "Moffman" will be corrupt as hell, taking bribes from clans for such "small things" as order demolishing of the random/public facilities that those clans seen as inconvinient for them, etc.
@@markfranz7313 the big issue with foxhole, and why I don't play anymore. The game requires democratized processes to be enjoyable to play, but those democratized processes will always fuck things up because people are stupid and need organization.
We had issues with tunnels wildly varying Msupp costs, because of the multiplier changing and due to being spread across sub hexes. I would like to see a further expansion on how many Msupps a tunnel will consume in future. A simply prediction would be nice. It was more accurate in the last system and that made it easier to plan ahead.
You can calculate the base cost in the planning phase, and perhaps make predictions on scenarios. But the tunnels across subregions make things complicated cause I have seen structures switch between supply sources even though both had msups. WHich made the consumption relatively unpredictable, you can make it a Fermi problem though
since released i played in the first war after 1.0, and then briefly in the 2nd war after 1.0. I was not a fan of how the player base was going about these facilities and i logged in just today and its the same everything.... I find it soooo funny that these clans of 5 people have these huge mega facilities setup, like then they start begging for supplies from randoms to help run it. What should be done is have a big enough clan to keep things going in your clan base. Or just be a pro at ONE thing. Run a gsup factory, run a fuel factory, run a store pile for pipes or something. Everyone wants to have 100% of the supply chain run through THEIR base. Not saying to have the whole war run through one gsup factory, but like you also need 1000 of them :D This video was great, 10/10!
Seeing dedicated single purpose facilities is great, but I am not going to lie. I have seen some clan facilities (of which you can see footage in the video) that are truly a marvel to look at. Maybe not too efficient, but awesomely big and sprawling and at least visually really cool
Woo! Love the video. PLEASE keep doing them - and if/when you start recruiting for others to contribute directly (helping build/hammer/deliver resources) Do let us know!
I always built with a mind for maintenance then everyone would ask for more and I would agree if they brought supplies when picking up. But then they never would so I stopped expanding and they get what they get.
Yeah people are quick to promise and slow to deliver and always want more. I've seen mutliple public facilities die to their own "succes" unfortunately
Video doesn't mention several critical issues with supply system: 1. Massive amount of tedium: 50k salvage every hour is an insane amount of salvage, it's port sausage levels of throughput - just for one region. 2. Lack of collaboration tools: the only way to advertise public msupp facility is to spam region chat 3. Zero automation for salvage - where's my conveyor belts? 4. Self-destructive nature of the system. Current approach incentives to facility owner to grief his neighbors to get better supply rating. All of these fall squarely into dev man bad. Supply system is poorly designed and isn't thought out or tested. You can't even do something as trivial as load supplies on the small train.
I wanna tell you how we solved having the same problem with public Component factory 1 - Have tryhard logi clan that focuses just on bringing scrap to the factory and powering plans with diesel 2 - You drive up close to player bases, look in online chat and whisper to them if they're in a region You talk to people. 3 - Slave labor 😅 4 - Again, talk to people, build on the edge of regions to fix the Msup supply ratio, let facilities decay or help them do that if noone supplies them All of these fall into #CLANMANBAD cathegory for me, unfoturnately As a tryhard I can tell that this is duable with even just 4 people on "Very hard" mode if you know the tricks lol
1. I haven't used these data really in the video but ths stockpiles amount of msups were: Heartlands: 166175 msups ( 830875 salvage) in stockpile / 9353 msups = 17 hrs worth of msups Ashfields: 464341 msups ( 2321705 salvage) in stockpile /13748 msups = 33.8 hrs worth of msups Red River: 451524 msups (2257620 salvage) in stockpile / 9664 msups = 46.7 hrs worth of msups Some more Fermi approximations give you 34 truck full of salvage or 25 dumptrucks or 10 containers on an hourly basis which easily doable if people work together (that's a big IF, I know) 2. Just post a map marker and have some clanman or friendlies updoot. If we can "Upvote to bring Jesus to the battlefield" we should be able to get important mapmarkers to stay on the map, if not then I suppose nobody thought it would be important 3. I wouldn't count on it coming (I might misjudge this though). The devs seem to be wanting players to interact with the systems on a regulare basis. In that sense I am kind of surprised that fuel automation is even possible, happy with it but kind of surprised 4. Grief how? Like bully away? Or build a gazillion structures to drive up the cost? Pretty sure the msups can't be loaded on a small train by design (not that I necessarily agree with that choice but that harkens back to point 3)
@@Van_of_the_lake These are not solutions, you're nolifing your way through the problems. Tryharding and whispering people doesn't make dev failures in facility automation and advertising go away.
@@FreerkHoltes teamwork in foxhole? Impossible. The game has zero collaboration or planning tools. There's no persistent messaging system or friends list. Even facility planner is a third party tool. Logi calculators, maps with rulers or protractors, even tutorial all only provided by third parties. Something as crucial as railway network map wasn't in game until devs saw player maps and "thought they were cool". Map markers with memes are not a solution for advertisement either, it's a poor workaround at best. If there was something like a billboard building that makes a map marker as long as it exists, it would be a great advertising tool, but there isn't. We're six months into facilities and there's still no way to keep lights on 24/7, no way to automate, no way to advertise, crude all-or-nothing access control, very little way to protect facility from looting, and now you have to pay an arm and a leg just to keep it from decaying. If it's dev intention for facilities to be a massive time sink, congratulations, this has been achieved, now it is a massive time sink. Regarding msupps on small train, it's an example of how poorly thought out the system is. Rest of facilities are designed around using small trains; msupps are just kind of tacked on to the side. It's unfinished, unpolished and unbalanced. You can see this in everything, from oil products flow rates to pallets and pallet car capacities, to foundation sizes, to power supply and demand numbers. There's not enough Gordon Ramsay clips on the internet to describe how raw the facilites are.
If you can stand on a tunnel and use binos to see what is, isn't being supported would be nice. Maybe something with the flag. If flag is flying high above structure then supplied. If flying low then not supplied
That would be a nice start, but just having it displayed in the tunnel would be awesome. And so far I haven't thought of good reason why it shouldn't be like that. To me at least that doesn't feel like somehting we aren't supposed to know
13:55 Ahem, mister. As a warden END player I'd love to give you, collies, a little of this sweet information about how we broke even this system. As a part of glorious warden engineers ☕️ We've constructed a "Utopia" among our fellow warden facility workers, by building every single huge plant in one sub-region, and putting the "Pills", as we call them, in regions nearby with Good and Very Good supply modifiers. Basically, we evaded the Msup taxation this way for END, 3IRD and FM clans 🧐 God bless Callahan and Callahan's passage, as we, wardens shall reunite to fight off the debt we had since 1.0 with out glorious metal machines!!! God bless Callahan 🙏 *WARDEN ENGINEERING IS SUPERIOUR!!!*
Ahem, that is "sir" for you, when you are adressing a Major General ;) I love to hear (and/or see) these success stories of people working together, groups making very efficient facilities, big trainyards that actually serve a purpose and public services becoming a main stay and recognizable names (like port sausage and tobasco)
I designed facilities that can produce almost everything with only 80 structure (20 foundation) for my small regi. Even multiplier go "very poor" we still manage to live for 33 day at war. We let it decay because we don't know what to play next beside RSC and battle train lol
Imho you left a huge issue out with "Factionman bad", although it could also fit into every role in some way too: People not cooperating. Maintenance could be way lower for everyone, if not every player, every clan and their grandmothers would insist on building their own facility that can do everything. The only group that does this well at the very least on some level is MSA, sharing work across different timezones. The same should be done for facilities. A group of clans from different timezones, that cooperatively build and uses one facility, is way more efficient (also regarding MSupp usage) than if everyone of the clans builds their own facility, that stands still 50+x% of the time of a day because no one of their clan is on and the facility is squadlocked, so no one can alt it... but also no one can use it. And sorry, but some solo players, that insist on building their own facility, should get their heads out of their "where the sun never shines"-holes and should come to their senses: As a soloman, except for very simple facilities (e.g. a public MSupp Production) they're not supposed to build facilities on their own, that is the biggest waste. Foxhole is a group focused game, you do everything way more effectively and efficiently in a group than alone. I can understand, that they also want to use this feature, but for the good of all they then should join a clan and enjoy the feature as part of the clan. And it also fits into "devman bad" because of they would improve their hamster-run server farms more, the system could be less restricting and punishing. What also is a huge problem in a way and source of frustration: There are people who see the big picture, e.g. when too many facilities are built in a subhex you can't really build and maintain a bunker effectively due to Very Poor Modifiers... but you can't do anything against it, atleast not within the TOS. So people resignate, burn out and leave the game. PS: And yeah devman also bad for not giving the tools to adequately deal with alts or to cooperate. Why are there not permanent map posts for facilities to signal what you build, to see on a first glance that maybe there are already too many facilities of a certain type? PPS: We also use external tools to organize and plan, the Facility Planner and, since recently, Trello, to organize tasks and maintenance.
as someone who was obsessed with factorio, facilities was always going to be the same game to me, I just didn't like how on release the facilities were highly unoptimized for small group play which kept me glued to an upgrade facility that while actively kept that section of the front operational in terms of the most modern variants of any tech constantly, I could not leave it for more than 8 hours using the most optimized build strats I had at the time. maybe I should go see if these new supply modifiers and mechanics have optimized that...
I am pretty convinced that facilites are NOT meant to be left alone for a significant amount of time by design. The new maintenance tunnel at least gives you more control over what you want to prevent the decay on which is nice.
Subregion sizes are the biggest problem in my opinion. Let's take cannonsmoke for example. That subregion it's possible and has been before (war 99 I think) to have 3 oil fields in that single subregion. Where places with lots of tiny regions have a much better time with msub costs. Stuff like that just makes the region cost insane.
Yeah some regions have insanely huge subregions, compared to others. But Ill personally maintain that the amount of parking lots and redundant facilities play a bigger part.
I liked this video but the distributing labor to do centralized and specialized tasks is only a solution if devman helps us with better comms options in game to communicate with one another across time zones. Currently the people who like doing facilities also happen to be the scroopers and the delivery drivers of supplies ive seen so a lot of the complaints I've seen center on fixing the lack of automation around power and production. Your msupp example as a baseline requires people feeding 32k scrap every 2 hours to ensure there is 14.5k roughly for one hour worth of msupp production per msupp factory. It doesnt sound like a lot but then add in the delivering of the msupps to their destination now something may fall off and not run fully. This becomes the real issue right now because there's just too much "busy work" without truly respecting the player time. Like id love it if devman made it easier for us to collab on something like dividing up facility work between many locations to reduce number of buildings to reduce msupp usage but right now we simply lack tools like permanent world markers or some kind of permanent messaging system that lets us communicate cross time zone. Plus the demolition system is bullshit for trying to make adjustments. But I digress otherwise really liked how you broke the problems down!
I haven't really done calculations on the delivery problem yet. But if I use my census data on stockpiles (which I didn't use in the video) I'd say that is not an issue either. Heartlands had 166175 msups ( 830875 salvage) in stockpile / 9353 msups = 17 hrs worth of msups Ashfields had 464341 msups ( 2321705 salvage) in stockpile /13748 msups = 33.8 hrs worth of msups Red River had 451524 msups (2257620 salvage) in stockpile / 9664 msups = 46.7 hrs worth os msups As far as automation goes, I wouldn't expect any real movement there. The devs really seem to want people to interact with their faiclities/refinery/factory etc. on a regular basis and not be able to run them automatically. What do you mean by the demolition system is bs?
@@FreerkHoltes well I dont even mean about the output, its definitely there but I mean making sure someone is on at a time slot to deliver the msupps from the facility to where it needs to go. And we are talking now about *player time* and *players* not raw output of buildings which stops if the building has 32k output in it and the building can only hold a total of 32k If the player who is running salvage into the machine has to also run coal/coke, water etc. for power AND then also deliver the msupps to their destination (at 1.5k a trip) the amount of time it takes to do such deliveries can lead to the material factories turning off if you haven't put enough salvage in or even power shut down. Your example works, but only if there are players actively running it because the problem is limiting building caps (32k in one building) while punishing us for making more structures in two ways, limiting power system (30MW limit) and the demo system being annoying as fuck, ie instead of constantly having the option to demo a structure you have to flag it and friendly fire it to death while getting weapons locked. Devman can just remove us getting resources back or make that period disappear without removing our ability to instantly remove a structure. And also the fix to this stuff isn't conveyor belt automation, it can be, but the automation im referring to is making the buildings better. Instead of a 32k cap why have a cap for some of this? Why limit the truck delivery of supps to just 1.5k a trip? For good bases thats 3-5 hours of maintenance and AI being active. *someone* will have to be there to do it again after that point. That is what im talking about, because in reality of the game the person who does the msupps into the tunnels and cores and other supply managing buildings happens to also be the guys making sure a facility is producing and powered up.
I made the data of my msup census public (see pinned comment), maybe you can use that as a basis of doing extra calcualtions. For instance all three maps had more then 100 supply sources. Doing a generous estimation of of one person having made five tunnels that is allready 20 people that (in theory) should be willing to participate in this. Now the real number of people involved in this is going to be way higher, most facilities have more than one person involved in my experience. The average hourly msup consumption per tunnel in Heartlands is only 9353/112 = 83,5 msup for instance. So supplying "your" five tunnels with one full truck in that estimation is 1500/5 = 300 msups, 300/84 = 3.6 hours worth of msup with one trip.
@@FreerkHoltes your experience is wildly different than mine, 900 ish hours in the game and playing with regis. I've noticed gaps when things are not being taken care of which is what im trying to get you to see. It isnt just the math, the math makes sense the problem is the player is not magically able to make these deliveries happen in 5 minutes every time. Let's say you xentralize every hex production so each hex is producing what it needs. But not every hex has comps, oil, sulfur and some even dont get lots of salvage in em. So while your math is right and the initial labor is accounted for what happens at the end of that first groups 3 hour play session? Because that's what im getting at. No amount of math or formulas will solve this predicament bc its one created by the fact this isnt a job but a video game. 14.5k salvage is how much a mat fac used in 1 hour. This takes maybe 20-30 minutes to farm up from auto miners if at a high pop hour bc of how often mines are checked or visiting one salvage field 3 times and delivering it (assuming the field isnt being emptied regularly is highly dangerous assumption if not late war) then we arent even talking power gathering and delivery yet much less delivering the msupps. But to produce 1.5k msupps takes roughly 30 minutes itself in 1 factory, oh you say add more? But now you're being punished with higher maintenance cost so you can more "efficiently" use your 3-6hour play period. This is the fundamental thing im getting at, player time should not be *forced* into being a singular role. I ran a bunker base and ammo facility this war and it meant I couldn't do frontline artillery which meant the front I was on had less artillery and when I go to fight? There's no one to make ammo unless player pop is there. This is what im getting at, the game is not built to help players work together on these sorts of projects and players want to do MANY roles. I dont for example want to just scoop for a facility or for msupps nor do I just wanna deliver msupps. But if I stop the who is there to pick up my slack? The problem is devman has made no "wiggle room" and this means the player doesn't feel like this is fun anymore which only exacerbates the problems you've listed in the video
To be fair, I tend to do that as well. I have build some small facilities and bunkers, but always decided it's better to leave that to actual planners and I'll help them out with hauling resources
at very poor: the msup consumption increases exponentially with amount of structures built. Very poor seems to have no limit to msup consumption per structure. Seen as high as 6.5 per structure per hour and also heard of people having 12 msups per structure per hour. You want to build as tight and as little as possible.
Players need to build the M-SUPP system first, with oil fields and will call them vending machines, producing your scrap feeds, which can simply be moved and done by a truck or small train set, only moving a few feet, be nice to see a resource layout for your base, which would add a visual planning aid, where to put maintenance tunnels, etc... a better projection of an area, a lot of cases most machines are not being used constantly and wastefully, most things are built for player conveniences. Especially when a buddy has specialized in it already, and even his facility is not running at a decent capacity, as everyone has their own convivence facility.
As a new player who is slowly grinding through your 18th video list. I have to tell you that this was incredibly insightful. I have yet not built a base. But was thinking about building one near. What seems to be a good area? But I will now hold off
O wow, you're going through the whole list? Hat's off! You don't necessarily have to hold off, cause experience will teach you things as well. With facilities it is most important that you build what you can maintain, which as a solo player usually isn't too much. Another option is asking around in game if there are some groups that are willing to let you help with their facility
My biggest problem for doing first time logi stuff.. I started to build near map corner.. so I didn't know if I come close the decay cannot be stopped.. so I have no space really and had to use every space I find.. :S.
I suspect the price of the underground pipe is to limit it's use. Otherwise why would you ever use overground pipes if you can just use the underground ones?
This could literally be classified as confidential intel. You don’t want your enemy being any more powerful than they already are, economically or militarily.
I would imagine that at least half of all mined salvage is wasted. Most facilities just sit idle after their initial use -> waste. Newbies pick a full load of weapons and gear before running into cannon fire over and over instead of picking up decaying guns and ammo from the ground -> waste. Private hoards that never get used, because people get bored and leave -> waste.
Me seeing the train track wiggle and the unorganized placements is giving me ptsd. If you don't know how to plan logistics! hire a factorio player, A game that is built on efficient logistics!
I have a facility that uses around 25 supps an hour. But still get clans that have super inefficient facilities berating me about the supply modifier. But then if you ask thrm for coke they want to haggle. Its a joke.
Msups production and distribution should be handled similarly to current oil baron system, and clanmen need to relegate this task to other specialized players. Players need to adapt.
Anything that would be more organized would be betetr than what we currently have. Allthough I've heard some instances where entire hexes pulled their msup production together to centralize it. Main stumbling block might be inter-clan communication
It was actually quite relaxing. Sightseeing the maps, trying to not get killed by angry clanman because you looked at their tunnels funny, more sightseeing, avoiding an ongoing invasion (Heartlands), more sightseeing. Pretty chill, can recommend :D
Using the phrase "build back better" gave me flashbacks of shallow, well-connected politicians promising to reorganize society in their interests. Thanks.
Who says I'm not running for President of Foxhole 2024? But without kidding, the only way to really get people's attention on YT unfortunately seems to be either stirring drama or using clickbait titles instead of actually informative titles.
Noobs, clans, and selfish players are all part of the game, and doesnt matter how many tutorials you make, suboptimal gameplay is inevitably. In other words, who cares games is trash and the devs dont care about making the gameplay less frustating
I do agree with the first bit. But there is suboptimal and there is suboptimal. I've seen facilities where I was: huh, that could've been done a bit better, and I've seen ones where I was: what where they smoking? So if I can get more people in the first category that would be great.
individual players are to blame for needless 1x1 and corner pieces, or just using underground pipes because they look good, and for the underground pipes, very "proud" clanmen that are also massive in size randos and pubbies also dont like to work together to share the load, and lower costs for themselves, while lowering the costs with everyone else, because #clanmanbad and if that fails, #devmanbad ive also seen rando players creating bases with lots of foundations that are completely unused, just because they look good or provide a small movement boost between actual facilities, because they cant be bothered to make a small train, or trade one from another group (who will gladly help them make one) ive even seen people place foundations on the ground just to cover up GATES of all things in short: pubbies/randos are to blame for most of the cost inflation for unecessary structures, because of greed we had a public upgrade facility, but we kept having people from other hexes stealing our supplies that we needed for certain projects, so that they could do their own, without worrying about the costs, they never provided any of the materials, or upkeep, they just took and told everyone to "fuck off" we are at the point where "griefing" to reduce subregion costs, for people who dont want to cooperate is now a necessary evil, and no longer actually "griefing", because in a way, the people who refuse to cooperate, are "griefing" because of greed or spite, especially since the regiments can more effectively use and provide the most amount of supplies for the faction as a whole, sharing them more effectively, and actually increasing the amount of things people can use, while reducing the load on individuals, especially as there are plenty of those who refuse to do anything for themselves, or join such regiments, while instead, being leeches, while wasting the supplies, because they do not understand, and most importantly, care, about the costs incurred by their negligence and self-entitlement its a game, but its not a singleplayer game, every action has a consequence not just for you, but for everyone on your team, and the enemy, whether that means making their lives harder, or easier, which can lead into inadvertent griefing, which gets punished nearly the same as alting in some cases
"we had a public facility" meanwhile it's squadlocked meaning all the switches are immovable to anyone but your squadmates. Do cry me a long deep river
@@mrjoykak just because a few switches are squadlocked doesn't mean that the rest of the facility cant be used by the public In some cases, the public will waste resources if you dont Theres also not 100% of the facility that needs people to be able to flick switches for it to function properly Cranes are sometimes hooked directly into the power network, some buildings cannot do other tasks, and some buildings would waste resources because the power requirements are too high or low for certain individuals to actually do anything Just because you are an idiot doesn't give you the right to complain about restrictions that help you from not pissing off the entire region or faction The public facility was squad locked, but still set up in a way that anyone could use it It was a public upgrade station, made only to run off of diesel, meaning that flipping the switch is unnecessary, due to the way it was hooked up and managed by the facility workers, and a way for the public to feed it fuel, if the managers werent around You come at me with hatred, not knowing the full story You assumed that, just because it had squadlocks, it was malicious, or that you had some moral virtue in your actions of griefing People like you are the exact reason why the squad lock system exists, and more recently, armored vehicles, reservable in private stockpiles You know nothing about reality, so you shout as if you know everything, in an attempt to seem relevant or virtuous You never asked, you just took, you just destroyed, you just called people nazis, whatever it was, it was entirely your fault, and completely unwarranted
For the people who are interested I made the data of my msup census public:
Heartlands Msup Census
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15wS_g3uWNTzvtdiVy5uQX9PxK5wuNoHS10Sn_9HvEik/edit?usp=sharing
Ashfields Msup Census
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MUkK6AMD18d7QcCSSyob6pUWVMyE4_Zu50ZTUh9eKuk/edit?usp=sharing
Red River Msup Census
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jtpoI8_1qE4jKpcveycZn4r22r8VF12MhyUK1X3yXPU/edit?usp=sharing
its'5 thousand not 50 thousand xD
Holy hell the production value... Of the video i mean not the facilities... welli guess those too
Thanks!
I always start enthusiastically with all kinds of crazy visuals only to realize that I now have to keep it up throughout the video.
Sometimes I hate my past self for that, as I assume a whole bunch of facility builders do as well :D (their past self, not me)
It's like my third day of playing foxhole and all I can say is I was startled by the sheer amount of player built structures sitting on idle unused. And I didn't even know about maintenance costs.
Also so many built private, kinda makes me wish for an all public game mode.
Amazing video, very high quality. I like how you talked about the whole 5 factories producing all msups for a region. In this game so many resources are wasted in supplies that sit in private stockpiles, never to be used again, and lots of facilities build the same buildings the one next door has. If clans could find a way of working together, the entirety of LOGI would become a lot less tedious, as not as many supplies would have to be made.
Thank you for your kind words, much appreciated.
I've been trying to help with that by using the sisyphus to move supplies mid to front. It's been pretty good actually.
I think the most helpful thing you can do when creating a facility is to outline what you want to do with it and if you can find someone else or somewhere else that does that better. I've made a few facilities now and each time I've had to reorganize things as I was building it because I realized I could cut down on Msupp costs by sourcing something from somewhere else. I don't build coal refineries anymore because public coal fields will give me free coke, I don't build large assemblers or waste time on having many assembly pads when I don't use them because my regiment already has a facility for upgrading tanks, instead I just focus on producing what isn't being covered by public facilities or my regiment. It just doesn't make much sense to waste your time on upkeep for structures that are already covered by someone else, any time you spend transporting those materials is easily time made back by the substantially lower msupp costs and stress
I've always strived for the smallest possible foundation with as many things as I can cram into it. Experimentation has yielded favorable results, but this method is only good for decreasing the number of foundations one might need, the biggest culprit of msupp consumption. This video did give me some useful tid bits that might save me from the stress next time I do this. I will keep tabs on this channel.
I can't really stress enough how helpfull foxholeplanner can be when coming up with facilities. Also a good time to try out some efficient facility builds might be Resistance Phase
Great information! As someone who still has not got into a ton of facility stuff this helps a lot!
Thanks! Yeah Facilities are a beast of their own. And like anything in Foxhole has a pretty steep learning curve that has a lot of pitfalls at the beginning stages.
@@FreerkHoltes So I've seen ha. Your videos help a lot to understand it better so thank you!
At this point anyone that wants to set up a facility they should really be using the foxhole planner online, also if your solo or small scale you only really only need one of each building, you can easily make a facility capable of making battle tanks with a foundation footprint of 3x6 and have atleast 2 small pads (depending number of petrol stations ya want, I like one personally) in order to make it like this ya need to be willing to just use fuel containers for heavy oil for the metalworks which really isn't a problem. bigger groups with players on all the time can defo go bigger but ya always want to make it a quick job (keep big trains in mind for this) with first area being for basic production of c-mats, coal coke, maintance supplies then just next to it in range of your small gauge your ass-mats area then you pads for vics just beyond that. always build within your means and have a clear goal in mind before planning your facility or you just gonna end up endlessly feeding the beast and not really helping the factions effort. last thing people with facility's work hard on them so it your looking to mod a vic ask around before just using someone facility without permission keeps everyone happy.
foxholeplanner is a god sent. Sure it's not perfect but boy does it help people to realize things about facilities.
And yes, unless explicitly stated, never use somebodies upgrade pads without asking if you can
As long as facilities use public resources and space to build I will always use them when I wish to with impunity.
3x6 is huge man, and thats the bare minimum of production, youre better off joining a group and being extra manpower for a better design by someone who knows what theyre doing
One topic I wish was addressed beside msup consumption is LOCATION. It is literally game throwing when people build their facility on top of a necessary strategic choke point, because they didn't want to pipe or run rails from the 'devman bad' resource field to behind defenses. They just plop their facility directly on top of the resource, and then partisan man has fun, QRF man pulls their hair out, and then the enemy frontman walks past it for an easy win. I cannot name the amount of times a bridge was compromised because playerman bad built a useless facility there was already tons of around, instead of a bunker base.
I do agree that a lot of facilities are placed badly, but that also is a matter of opinion not of numbers I think.
You say they block a chokepoint andthey shouldn't (you're right)
They say they need to build there for high efficiency (and they are right as well)
But yeah, facilities get build in chokepoints, around resource fields blocking other players out, around resource mines making it near impossible to reach them etc etc. But that's the beauty and frustration of sandbox games, anything is possible
@@FreerkHoltes Except, apparently, the removal of trees...
I have no quarrel with the squirrel, but I abhor arbory!
First of all, great video. Although I knew many of the things you explained (because just like you I had to suffer through the little information the game provides to those who want to dive deep) I still managed to learn much. You mentioned possible improvents to the system that could come from devs like the structures actually maintained, but there is one I would love to have which is "allow/disallow this structure to consume msups". This way, you can get rid of those things you don't want anymore in the middle of your facilities and cannot be destroyed even by the original builder (and you don't have enough people to flag it disruptive). Overall, thanks again for making a vid on this.
O wow, I hadn't even thought of reversing the system. That could work out nicely. Not sure if it fits into what the devs want though.
I almost never do logi but still appreciate the work you do for the Foxhole community! Top tier creator :D
Us at HAULR have been doing an order system to supply groups. They drop off a prearranged amount of comps and they drive off in a BT/BTD/SHT or any other facility vehicle. The small bases nearby making a small train and a single BT served no purpose in comparison and got partisaned constantly. We hope next war we can make this fact known in the region and have solo/small groups cooperate with us so that everyone can get what they want. Might even do a Facility seminar for people to learn
P.S. I saw you're in 87inf squad. Their vehicles and logi are run by us so that they as a small regi don't need to waste their time on a facility
I was in the 87inf squad to help repair their bunker at Westmarch in the early days.
But yeah, people cooperating inbetween clans/groups is always good to see.
At this point I don't think a Facility seminar will cut it though, it's going to be a full on PhD course :D
Honestly, Foxhole should pay you for how useful your videos are. Thank you Freerk, I've learned more about how to play this game from you than from any other source (although the Wiki is also very helpful).
True, at least 5$
This is extremely important and helpful, you literally did an Academic Research to get those data! Thank you again for taking care of these kind of problem, because it seems that everyone is complaining and no one does something. You are really appreciated
Great to see such a well put together video describing the problems in an easy to digest manner. Hopefully people start paying attention and work through facilities in a more organised and efficient manner.
Спасибо тебе большое за проделанную тобой работу!! Такого рода видео очень мало. Для вновь прибывших в игру очень удобно показать твои видео
Спасибо! Всегда приятно слышать, что это было полезно для людей.
I used Google translate for this so I hope it says what I wanted, in case it didn't:
"Thanks! Always good to hear it has been helpfull to people"
Good way to display one of great ideas to run game efficiently which greatly contributes to wining whole thing.
In nutshell you need maximised mining so you use all accessible resources
then efficient producers who wont burn it in garrison supplies on 1x1 foundations and el. pole forrests
followed by logi which can use large trucks and trains or ships
so frontline can conquer something with minimal costs per BB especialy if they dont bleed resources and can recover part of lost equipment
Otherwise it might get "unsustainable"
I think the problem is that the majority of players come to Foxhole for the combat, not realizing that for a hex to be constantly operating at max efficiency there needs to be a large and coordinated network of logi workers, usually 2-3 for every player at the front. The 27th is currently suffering from this issue, as our structure is currently an inverted pyramid. Most of our members are running combat duties while our small but very capable logi division is handling the backend.
It's the fun part of showing new players around in the backlines. Hearing them have the realization of how much works goes into all the stuff they just used up at their bridge battle is priceless.
Split the clan in two - those who prepeare tanks and ammunition, then use it, and those who do superheavies/trains/other logi stuff-supply
That's what we did in our END clan at least, I don't know if that'll give some idea to your leader
But yea, our people are universal in many ways, all of us have preferences, but we do make sure to use the most of everyone
Maybe that's the reason behind your frustration
I once saw a guy in NOD regiment demanding a logi player to bring something, nearly shouting
It's a pain to have such people in your clan, so we've never had them at all
After all we do this for fun, don't we?
@@Van_of_the_lake
I was trying to introduce the same reasoning to my clan. Healthy and balanced relationship with the game, which in practice means sharing the burden of work required to make things happen. Oh boy, the resistance and backlash I got for such controversial proposition. Long story short the clan no longer exists. I wonder why.
All I want to say is I wish more people could understand that mindset instead of playing foxhole like world of tanks or PUBG. Nothing is free in Foxhole.
I think the only real way to solve this problem is to introduce a new man, and that is 'Moffman'. Just like how the Empire in Star Wars had sector Moffs, there needs to be a person dedicated to making sure clanman and playerman don't do bad. When they ask for a flag for obstructive placement, they need to get it ASAP. Time is wasted waiting for bad facilities to rot, when you need good builds and good defenses NOW. Moffman however, when given all this power, is also expected to supply bases constructed under their direct orders. If their bases rot away, Moffman should lose their position.
Somehow this suggestion reminds me of the old (like in ye olden days) qurater master role.
And just as in Empire "Moffman" will be corrupt as hell, taking bribes from clans for such "small things" as order demolishing of the random/public facilities that those clans seen as inconvinient for them, etc.
@@markfranz7313 the big issue with foxhole, and why I don't play anymore. The game requires democratized processes to be enjoyable to play, but those democratized processes will always fuck things up because people are stupid and need organization.
@@FreerkHoltes Ah yes...the QM. I once took on the QM role for a 6 hr stretch. Almost shot myself at the end.
We had issues with tunnels wildly varying Msupp costs, because of the multiplier changing and due to being spread across sub hexes. I would like to see a further expansion on how many Msupps a tunnel will consume in future. A simply prediction would be nice. It was more accurate in the last system and that made it easier to plan ahead.
You can calculate the base cost in the planning phase, and perhaps make predictions on scenarios. But the tunnels across subregions make things complicated cause I have seen structures switch between supply sources even though both had msups. WHich made the consumption relatively unpredictable, you can make it a Fermi problem though
@@FreerkHoltes You're right. I was in the "construction and maintain" part of my regiment though.
since released i played in the first war after 1.0, and then briefly in the 2nd war after 1.0.
I was not a fan of how the player base was going about these facilities and i logged in just today and its the same everything....
I find it soooo funny that these clans of 5 people have these huge mega facilities setup, like then they start begging for supplies from randoms to help run it.
What should be done is have a big enough clan to keep things going in your clan base. Or just be a pro at ONE thing. Run a gsup factory, run a fuel factory, run a store pile for pipes or something. Everyone wants to have 100% of the supply chain run through THEIR base.
Not saying to have the whole war run through one gsup factory, but like you also need 1000 of them :D
This video was great, 10/10!
Seeing dedicated single purpose facilities is great, but I am not going to lie. I have seen some clan facilities (of which you can see footage in the video) that are truly a marvel to look at. Maybe not too efficient, but awesomely big and sprawling and at least visually really cool
Woo! Love the video. PLEASE keep doing them - and if/when you start recruiting for others to contribute directly (helping build/hammer/deliver resources) Do let us know!
Thank you, and I usually just ask in region chat for some help and generally get it.
Oh wow our facility is in this video thats awesome thanks man!
You are welcome :D
@@FreerkHoltes hope you liked it! We put a lot of effort into making it as easy as possible for people to do public scrooping!
Oh shit he's prefacing the discussion with a glossary like a lawyer predefines terms in a contract; this man means business!
Another great video, thank you for being an invaluable resource for this community 👍
You are welcome. It was my pleasure (for the most part) to make this video ;)
I drove past the maintenance tunnel testing site multiple times! How did you get the census data for those region costs?
Visiting each tunnel, taking the data, run away from clanman trying to shoot you because you looked at their tunnel, on to the next tunnel.
Great video! Love the quality and the style. Keep up the good work!
I will do my best
This is a very useful video, even for new logi players.
And based on my own experiences with Foxhole, I agree with your assessments.
Aloha 😊🤙🏼👏🏼
Please link this video to your other facility building videos as a caveat before starting to build.
oooh good idea
I always built with a mind for maintenance then everyone would ask for more and I would agree if they brought supplies when picking up. But then they never would so I stopped expanding and they get what they get.
Yeah people are quick to promise and slow to deliver and always want more.
I've seen mutliple public facilities die to their own "succes" unfortunately
@@FreerkHoltes Probably mine included in that, LOL. Thanks for all you do. When I first started you really helped me with your how to video's.
Video doesn't mention several critical issues with supply system:
1. Massive amount of tedium: 50k salvage every hour is an insane amount of salvage, it's port sausage levels of throughput - just for one region.
2. Lack of collaboration tools: the only way to advertise public msupp facility is to spam region chat
3. Zero automation for salvage - where's my conveyor belts?
4. Self-destructive nature of the system. Current approach incentives to facility owner to grief his neighbors to get better supply rating.
All of these fall squarely into dev man bad. Supply system is poorly designed and isn't thought out or tested. You can't even do something as trivial as load supplies on the small train.
I wanna tell you how we solved having the same problem with public Component factory
1 - Have tryhard logi clan that focuses just on bringing scrap to the factory and powering plans with diesel
2 - You drive up close to player bases, look in online chat and whisper to them if they're in a region
You talk to people.
3 - Slave labor 😅
4 - Again, talk to people, build on the edge of regions to fix the Msup supply ratio, let facilities decay or help them do that if noone supplies them
All of these fall into #CLANMANBAD cathegory for me, unfoturnately
As a tryhard I can tell that this is duable with even just 4 people on "Very hard" mode if you know the tricks lol
1. I haven't used these data really in the video but ths stockpiles amount of msups were:
Heartlands: 166175 msups ( 830875 salvage) in stockpile / 9353 msups = 17 hrs worth of msups
Ashfields: 464341 msups ( 2321705 salvage) in stockpile /13748 msups = 33.8 hrs worth of msups
Red River: 451524 msups (2257620 salvage) in stockpile / 9664 msups = 46.7 hrs worth of msups
Some more Fermi approximations give you 34 truck full of salvage or 25 dumptrucks or 10 containers on an hourly basis which easily doable if people work together (that's a big IF, I know)
2. Just post a map marker and have some clanman or friendlies updoot. If we can "Upvote to bring Jesus to the battlefield" we should be able to get important mapmarkers to stay on the map, if not then I suppose nobody thought it would be important
3. I wouldn't count on it coming (I might misjudge this though). The devs seem to be wanting players to interact with the systems on a regulare basis. In that sense I am kind of surprised that fuel automation is even possible, happy with it but kind of surprised
4. Grief how? Like bully away? Or build a gazillion structures to drive up the cost?
Pretty sure the msups can't be loaded on a small train by design (not that I necessarily agree with that choice but that harkens back to point 3)
@@Van_of_the_lake These are not solutions, you're nolifing your way through the problems. Tryharding and whispering people doesn't make dev failures in facility automation and advertising go away.
@@FreerkHoltes teamwork in foxhole? Impossible. The game has zero collaboration or planning tools. There's no persistent messaging system or friends list. Even facility planner is a third party tool. Logi calculators, maps with rulers or protractors, even tutorial all only provided by third parties. Something as crucial as railway network map wasn't in game until devs saw player maps and "thought they were cool". Map markers with memes are not a solution for advertisement either, it's a poor workaround at best. If there was something like a billboard building that makes a map marker as long as it exists, it would be a great advertising tool, but there isn't.
We're six months into facilities and there's still no way to keep lights on 24/7, no way to automate, no way to advertise, crude all-or-nothing access control, very little way to protect facility from looting, and now you have to pay an arm and a leg just to keep it from decaying. If it's dev intention for facilities to be a massive time sink, congratulations, this has been achieved, now it is a massive time sink.
Regarding msupps on small train, it's an example of how poorly thought out the system is. Rest of facilities are designed around using small trains; msupps are just kind of tacked on to the side. It's unfinished, unpolished and unbalanced. You can see this in everything, from oil products flow rates to pallets and pallet car capacities, to foundation sizes, to power supply and demand numbers. There's not enough Gordon Ramsay clips on the internet to describe how raw the facilites are.
Useful content, more people should watch.
I won't disagree :D
The Puns got me :)
Very informative Video. Thanks from a New Player.
:D.
I love puns, always good seeing them being appreciated
If you can stand on a tunnel and use binos to see what is, isn't being supported would be nice. Maybe something with the flag. If flag is flying high above structure then supplied. If flying low then not supplied
That would be a nice start, but just having it displayed in the tunnel would be awesome. And so far I haven't thought of good reason why it shouldn't be like that.
To me at least that doesn't feel like somehting we aren't supposed to know
13:55
Ahem, mister.
As a warden END player I'd love to give you, collies, a little of this sweet information about how we broke even this system.
As a part of glorious warden engineers ☕️
We've constructed a "Utopia" among our fellow warden facility workers, by building every single huge plant in one sub-region, and putting the "Pills", as we call them, in regions nearby with Good and Very Good supply modifiers.
Basically, we evaded the Msup taxation this way for END, 3IRD and FM clans 🧐
God bless Callahan and Callahan's passage, as we, wardens shall reunite to fight off the debt we had since 1.0 with out glorious metal machines!!!
God bless Callahan 🙏
*WARDEN ENGINEERING IS SUPERIOUR!!!*
Ahem, that is "sir" for you, when you are adressing a Major General ;)
I love to hear (and/or see) these success stories of people working together, groups making very efficient facilities, big trainyards that actually serve a purpose and public services becoming a main stay and recognizable names (like port sausage and tobasco)
@@FreerkHoltes My bad, sir 😳
I designed facilities that can produce almost everything with only 80 structure (20 foundation) for my small regi. Even multiplier go "very poor" we still manage to live for 33 day at war. We let it decay because we don't know what to play next beside RSC and battle train lol
Imho you left a huge issue out with "Factionman bad", although it could also fit into every role in some way too:
People not cooperating.
Maintenance could be way lower for everyone, if not every player, every clan and their grandmothers would insist on building their own facility that can do everything.
The only group that does this well at the very least on some level is MSA, sharing work across different timezones. The same should be done for facilities.
A group of clans from different timezones, that cooperatively build and uses one facility, is way more efficient (also regarding MSupp usage) than if everyone of the clans builds their own facility, that stands still 50+x% of the time of a day because no one of their clan is on and the facility is squadlocked, so no one can alt it... but also no one can use it.
And sorry, but some solo players, that insist on building their own facility, should get their heads out of their "where the sun never shines"-holes and should come to their senses: As a soloman, except for very simple facilities (e.g. a public MSupp Production) they're not supposed to build facilities on their own, that is the biggest waste.
Foxhole is a group focused game, you do everything way more effectively and efficiently in a group than alone.
I can understand, that they also want to use this feature, but for the good of all they then should join a clan and enjoy the feature as part of the clan.
And it also fits into "devman bad" because of they would improve their hamster-run server farms more, the system could be less restricting and punishing.
What also is a huge problem in a way and source of frustration:
There are people who see the big picture, e.g. when too many facilities are built in a subhex you can't really build and maintain a bunker effectively due to Very Poor Modifiers... but you can't do anything against it, atleast not within the TOS. So people resignate, burn out and leave the game.
PS: And yeah devman also bad for not giving the tools to adequately deal with alts or to cooperate.
Why are there not permanent map posts for facilities to signal what you build, to see on a first glance that maybe there are already too many facilities of a certain type?
PPS: We also use external tools to organize and plan, the Facility Planner and, since recently, Trello, to organize tasks and maintenance.
Thx for your Effort
as someone who was obsessed with factorio, facilities was always going to be the same game to me, I just didn't like how on release the facilities were highly unoptimized for small group play which kept me glued to an upgrade facility that while actively kept that section of the front operational in terms of the most modern variants of any tech constantly, I could not leave it for more than 8 hours using the most optimized build strats I had at the time.
maybe I should go see if these new supply modifiers and mechanics have optimized that...
I am pretty convinced that facilites are NOT meant to be left alone for a significant amount of time by design.
The new maintenance tunnel at least gives you more control over what you want to prevent the decay on which is nice.
Subregion sizes are the biggest problem in my opinion.
Let's take cannonsmoke for example.
That subregion it's possible and has been before (war 99 I think) to have 3 oil fields in that single subregion.
Where places with lots of tiny regions have a much better time with msub costs.
Stuff like that just makes the region cost insane.
Yeah some regions have insanely huge subregions, compared to others.
But Ill personally maintain that the amount of parking lots and redundant facilities play a bigger part.
I liked this video but the distributing labor to do centralized and specialized tasks is only a solution if devman helps us with better comms options in game to communicate with one another across time zones.
Currently the people who like doing facilities also happen to be the scroopers and the delivery drivers of supplies ive seen so a lot of the complaints I've seen center on fixing the lack of automation around power and production.
Your msupp example as a baseline requires people feeding 32k scrap every 2 hours to ensure there is 14.5k roughly for one hour worth of msupp production per msupp factory. It doesnt sound like a lot but then add in the delivering of the msupps to their destination now something may fall off and not run fully.
This becomes the real issue right now because there's just too much "busy work" without truly respecting the player time.
Like id love it if devman made it easier for us to collab on something like dividing up facility work between many locations to reduce number of buildings to reduce msupp usage but right now we simply lack tools like permanent world markers or some kind of permanent messaging system that lets us communicate cross time zone. Plus the demolition system is bullshit for trying to make adjustments.
But I digress otherwise really liked how you broke the problems down!
I haven't really done calculations on the delivery problem yet. But if I use my census data on stockpiles (which I didn't use in the video) I'd say that is not an issue either.
Heartlands had 166175 msups ( 830875 salvage) in stockpile / 9353 msups = 17 hrs worth of msups
Ashfields had 464341 msups ( 2321705 salvage) in stockpile /13748 msups = 33.8 hrs worth of msups
Red River had 451524 msups (2257620 salvage) in stockpile / 9664 msups = 46.7 hrs worth os msups
As far as automation goes, I wouldn't expect any real movement there. The devs really seem to want people to interact with their faiclities/refinery/factory etc. on a regular basis and not be able to run them automatically.
What do you mean by the demolition system is bs?
@@FreerkHoltes well I dont even mean about the output, its definitely there but I mean making sure someone is on at a time slot to deliver the msupps from the facility to where it needs to go. And we are talking now about *player time* and *players* not raw output of buildings which stops if the building has 32k output in it and the building can only hold a total of 32k
If the player who is running salvage into the machine has to also run coal/coke, water etc. for power AND then also deliver the msupps to their destination (at 1.5k a trip) the amount of time it takes to do such deliveries can lead to the material factories turning off if you haven't put enough salvage in or even power shut down.
Your example works, but only if there are players actively running it because the problem is limiting building caps (32k in one building) while punishing us for making more structures in two ways, limiting power system (30MW limit) and the demo system being annoying as fuck, ie instead of constantly having the option to demo a structure you have to flag it and friendly fire it to death while getting weapons locked. Devman can just remove us getting resources back or make that period disappear without removing our ability to instantly remove a structure.
And also the fix to this stuff isn't conveyor belt automation, it can be, but the automation im referring to is making the buildings better. Instead of a 32k cap why have a cap for some of this? Why limit the truck delivery of supps to just 1.5k a trip? For good bases thats 3-5 hours of maintenance and AI being active. *someone* will have to be there to do it again after that point.
That is what im talking about, because in reality of the game the person who does the msupps into the tunnels and cores and other supply managing buildings happens to also be the guys making sure a facility is producing and powered up.
I made the data of my msup census public (see pinned comment), maybe you can use that as a basis of doing extra calcualtions.
For instance all three maps had more then 100 supply sources. Doing a generous estimation of of one person having made five tunnels that is allready 20 people that (in theory) should be willing to participate in this.
Now the real number of people involved in this is going to be way higher, most facilities have more than one person involved in my experience.
The average hourly msup consumption per tunnel in Heartlands is only 9353/112 = 83,5 msup for instance. So supplying "your" five tunnels with one full truck in that estimation is 1500/5 = 300 msups, 300/84 = 3.6 hours worth of msup with one trip.
@@FreerkHoltes your experience is wildly different than mine, 900 ish hours in the game and playing with regis. I've noticed gaps when things are not being taken care of which is what im trying to get you to see.
It isnt just the math, the math makes sense the problem is the player is not magically able to make these deliveries happen in 5 minutes every time.
Let's say you xentralize every hex production so each hex is producing what it needs. But not every hex has comps, oil, sulfur and some even dont get lots of salvage in em. So while your math is right and the initial labor is accounted for what happens at the end of that first groups 3 hour play session? Because that's what im getting at.
No amount of math or formulas will solve this predicament bc its one created by the fact this isnt a job but a video game.
14.5k salvage is how much a mat fac used in 1 hour. This takes maybe 20-30 minutes to farm up from auto miners if at a high pop hour bc of how often mines are checked or visiting one salvage field 3 times and delivering it (assuming the field isnt being emptied regularly is highly dangerous assumption if not late war) then we arent even talking power gathering and delivery yet much less delivering the msupps.
But to produce 1.5k msupps takes roughly 30 minutes itself in 1 factory, oh you say add more? But now you're being punished with higher maintenance cost so you can more "efficiently" use your 3-6hour play period.
This is the fundamental thing im getting at, player time should not be *forced* into being a singular role. I ran a bunker base and ammo facility this war and it meant I couldn't do frontline artillery which meant the front I was on had less artillery and when I go to fight? There's no one to make ammo unless player pop is there.
This is what im getting at, the game is not built to help players work together on these sorts of projects and players want to do MANY roles. I dont for example want to just scoop for a facility or for msupps nor do I just wanna deliver msupps. But if I stop the who is there to pick up my slack? The problem is devman has made no "wiggle room" and this means the player doesn't feel like this is fun anymore which only exacerbates the problems you've listed in the video
Make Facilities Great Again.
this feels like a perun foxhole video. and i feel like you were going for that
Yes sir, definitely inspired by perun
Great video!
Thanks!
I have long since learned that I should just help supply other people who build things, not do it myself.
To be fair, I tend to do that as well. I have build some small facilities and bunkers, but always decided it's better to leave that to actual planners and I'll help them out with hauling resources
at very poor: the msup consumption increases exponentially with amount of structures built.
Very poor seems to have no limit to msup consumption per structure. Seen as high as 6.5 per structure per hour and also heard of people having 12 msups per structure per hour.
You want to build as tight and as little as possible.
Players need to build the M-SUPP system first, with oil fields and will call them vending machines, producing your scrap feeds, which can simply be moved and done by a truck or small train set, only moving a few feet, be nice to see a resource layout for your base, which would add a visual planning aid, where to put maintenance tunnels, etc... a better projection of an area, a lot of cases most machines are not being used constantly and wastefully, most things are built for player conveniences. Especially when a buddy has specialized in it already, and even his facility is not running at a decent capacity, as everyone has their own convivence facility.
As a new player who is slowly grinding through your 18th video list. I have to tell you that this was incredibly insightful. I have yet not built a base. But was thinking about building one near. What seems to be a good area? But I will now hold off
O wow, you're going through the whole list?
Hat's off!
You don't necessarily have to hold off, cause experience will teach you things as well. With facilities it is most important that you build what you can maintain, which as a solo player usually isn't too much.
Another option is asking around in game if there are some groups that are willing to let you help with their facility
I sub to you just cuz of the title of the video .
For the last suggestion, I'd prefer the sentence "X structures consumed Y supplies in the last hour."
My biggest problem for doing first time logi stuff.. I started to build near map corner.. so I didn't know if I come close the decay cannot be stopped.. so I have no space really and had to use every space I find.. :S.
Yeah, it is a tough game in that respect. Mistakes or not so great choices are punished... hard.
Amazing video
The videos are appreciated
Thanks, always good to hear
Hi my name is Leech ingame and im only 2Lt, thanks for the vote of confidence
9:30 900 x 40mm shells every hour. This is how much salvage the Msupps are eating. Every hour.
some of the "playerman-bad" stuff is really "devman-bad", like the cost of underground pipe cost.
I suspect the price of the underground pipe is to limit it's use. Otherwise why would you ever use overground pipes if you can just use the underground ones?
Digging takes a lot of effort man.. it's not cheap :p
This could literally be classified as confidential intel. You don’t want your enemy being any more powerful than they already are, economically or militarily.
I would imagine that at least half of all mined salvage is wasted.
Most facilities just sit idle after their initial use -> waste.
Newbies pick a full load of weapons and gear before running into cannon fire over and over instead of picking up decaying guns and ammo from the ground -> waste.
Private hoards that never get used, because people get bored and leave -> waste.
Me seeing the train track wiggle and the unorganized placements is giving me ptsd. If you don't know how to plan logistics! hire a factorio player, A game that is built on efficient logistics!
Funny thing is that construction often gets blame cause they built the things and just did what they were told. XD
Unfortunately the saying "manure rolls downhill" is very true even in Foxhole
I have a facility that uses around 25 supps an hour. But still get clans that have super inefficient facilities berating me about the supply modifier. But then if you ask thrm for coke they want to haggle. Its a joke.
clans need to work together off of one or 2 bases per hex, there is no reason to waste so much manpower to run 40 bases making all the same things
Msups production and distribution should be handled similarly to current oil baron system, and clanmen need to relegate this task to other specialized players. Players need to adapt.
Anything that would be more organized would be betetr than what we currently have. Allthough I've heard some instances where entire hexes pulled their msup production together to centralize it. Main stumbling block might be inter-clan communication
Maybe incentives to get pub players - especially new ones - to assist the clanmen in building and maintaining the facilities.
Aloha 🤙🏼
God that census thing looks like pain. granted i failed my statistics course sooo...
It was actually quite relaxing. Sightseeing the maps, trying to not get killed by angry clanman because you looked at their tunnels funny, more sightseeing, avoiding an ongoing invasion (Heartlands), more sightseeing.
Pretty chill, can recommend :D
16:31 what was bro doing?😂
O that?! That's the famous "Notice me Senpai" wiggle :D
Using the phrase "build back better" gave me flashbacks of shallow, well-connected politicians promising to reorganize society in their interests. Thanks.
Who says I'm not running for President of Foxhole 2024?
But without kidding, the only way to really get people's attention on YT unfortunately seems to be either stirring drama or using clickbait titles instead of actually informative titles.
@@FreerkHoltes That's how it is sometimes. It's a great video though!
Children earn for the falilities
Lieutenant Logistics is tired...
Noobs, clans, and selfish players are all part of the game, and doesnt matter how many tutorials you make, suboptimal gameplay is inevitably.
In other words, who cares games is trash and the devs dont care about making the gameplay less frustating
I do agree with the first bit. But there is suboptimal and there is suboptimal. I've seen facilities where I was: huh, that could've been done a bit better, and I've seen ones where I was: what where they smoking?
So if I can get more people in the first category that would be great.
individual players are to blame for needless 1x1 and corner pieces, or just using underground pipes because they look good, and for the underground pipes, very "proud" clanmen that are also massive in size
randos and pubbies also dont like to work together to share the load, and lower costs for themselves, while lowering the costs with everyone else, because #clanmanbad and if that fails, #devmanbad
ive also seen rando players creating bases with lots of foundations that are completely unused, just because they look good or provide a small movement boost between actual facilities, because they cant be bothered to make a small train, or trade one from another group (who will gladly help them make one)
ive even seen people place foundations on the ground just to cover up GATES of all things
in short: pubbies/randos are to blame for most of the cost inflation for unecessary structures, because of greed
we had a public upgrade facility, but we kept having people from other hexes stealing our supplies that we needed for certain projects, so that they could do their own, without worrying about the costs, they never provided any of the materials, or upkeep, they just took and told everyone to "fuck off"
we are at the point where "griefing" to reduce subregion costs, for people who dont want to cooperate is now a necessary evil, and no longer actually "griefing", because in a way, the people who refuse to cooperate, are "griefing" because of greed or spite, especially since the regiments can more effectively use and provide the most amount of supplies for the faction as a whole, sharing them more effectively, and actually increasing the amount of things people can use, while reducing the load on individuals, especially as there are plenty of those who refuse to do anything for themselves, or join such regiments, while instead, being leeches, while wasting the supplies, because they do not understand, and most importantly, care, about the costs incurred by their negligence and self-entitlement
its a game, but its not a singleplayer game, every action has a consequence not just for you, but for everyone on your team, and the enemy, whether that means making their lives harder, or easier, which can lead into inadvertent griefing, which gets punished nearly the same as alting in some cases
"we had a public facility" meanwhile it's squadlocked meaning all the switches are immovable to anyone but your squadmates. Do cry me a long deep river
@@mrjoykak just because a few switches are squadlocked doesn't mean that the rest of the facility cant be used by the public
In some cases, the public will waste resources if you dont
Theres also not 100% of the facility that needs people to be able to flick switches for it to function properly
Cranes are sometimes hooked directly into the power network, some buildings cannot do other tasks, and some buildings would waste resources because the power requirements are too high or low for certain individuals to actually do anything
Just because you are an idiot doesn't give you the right to complain about restrictions that help you from not pissing off the entire region or faction
The public facility was squad locked, but still set up in a way that anyone could use it
It was a public upgrade station, made only to run off of diesel, meaning that flipping the switch is unnecessary, due to the way it was hooked up and managed by the facility workers, and a way for the public to feed it fuel, if the managers werent around
You come at me with hatred, not knowing the full story
You assumed that, just because it had squadlocks, it was malicious, or that you had some moral virtue in your actions of griefing
People like you are the exact reason why the squad lock system exists, and more recently, armored vehicles, reservable in private stockpiles
You know nothing about reality, so you shout as if you know everything, in an attempt to seem relevant or virtuous
You never asked, you just took, you just destroyed, you just called people nazis, whatever it was, it was entirely your fault, and completely unwarranted