The flange should be sitting on top of the finished floor. (Or at the level where it would be sitting on top of the floor if the finished floor actually touched the lead or plastic drain pipe.) If it is a little bit higher or lower it may still be usable. I always set the toilet in place on the floor after I install the closet bolts "without" the wax ring. (This way I know exactly where the toilet is going to end up on the floor) Then I install soft wobble wedges and level the toilet. Then I lift the toilet off the floor and install a standard wax ring if the flange is not too low or too high. I know how high the flange is (relative to the bottom of the toilet) when I place a straight edge across the wedges and measure the distance from the bottom of the straight edge to the top of the flange. I install a thick wax ring if the flange is a little low. (I install a new flange if the flange is way too low or too high. This is at additional cost to the customer if needed) I do the above method because if I just placed the wax ring on the flange and set the toilet down and then leveled the toilet, it is likely that the toilet will lift up after compressing the wax ring. If that happens you have a gap between the bottom of the toilet and the wax ring. It will no longer be air and water tight. The wax rig has no 'springy action'. Once it compresses down, it stays down forever. After I install the correct wax ring on to the flange, I set the toilet down. Then I sit on the toilet to compress the wax ring. Then I install the bottom of the china caps and the closet bolt washers and nuts. Then I tighten the nuts to set the toilet. Then I flush the toilet about 10 times and look for leaks under the toilet. If no leaks are found I cut off the soft shims even with the sides of the toilet with a razor knife. Then I cut off the excess closet bolt a few threads above the nut and then install the china cap. Then I install DAP all the way around the bottom of the toilet except the very back. (Some customers prefer to not DAP the toilet. Make sure you ask them before you install any DAP) I leave the back open so if any leaks occur in the future, the leak can be detected as early as possible. This could save the customer a lot of money by finding a leak before it causes a lot of water damage. Then I do all the paper work and go back and check for water on the floor again. If no water is found I go get the customer and show them the new toilet and be sure they know how to operate the toilet before I leave the home. I make sure they are happy with the install and get them to sign off on the job and re-explain the warranty and the fact that if any problems occur during the warranty we will come out to fix it free of charge no matter when they call, day or night. I ask them for the third time if there is anything else they need to have addressed while I am there. If not, I pet the dog and get my tools and say good-bye. Then I drive off and call the dispatcher from a location away from that home to wait for a new call.
I'm starting to think the biggest problem is what happens if you have a leak. With the flange lower than the floor or even maybe level with floor, with a leak, you might not detect the leak until the damage is already done on the subfloor. Now with the flange on top of the floor, you will see the leak first (assuming you aren't oblivious to everything, especially shit water) and can fix it before too much damage. That is atleast what I'm gather on this matter.
The horn of the toilet should enter part way into the flange on the floor. Therefore the flange should be on top of the finished floor. There is no other correct answer. If the top of the flange was even with the top of the finished floor, the toilet horn would meet the flange like a butt joint and you would be relying completely on the wax to prevent leaks. Definitely not a good idea. Install the flange on top of the finished floor. Period.
Thank you! You nailed it. Flande must be above finished floor because like you said horn goes partly in toilet flange thus creating leak tight toilet.Why is this so hard to understand.Lot of misinformation out there.If the flange Top is flash with floor then you need a flange extender to bring up quarter inch up.
Flush with the finished floor is no good if your toilet horn is 5/8" cos your typical wax ring is only about 3/4" thick. That means 1/8" compression of the wax which is no good. In my situation the flange was slightly above the finished floor (1/16" roughly maybe more as it wasn't level) and I used a regular wax ring and when I installed the toilet there was no compression of the wax ring at all, in fact no contact with the flange. I re-installed with a extra thick wax ring and that worked as expected. I could have installed a flange extension but lot easier and cheaper using the extra thick wax ring. Should the extra thick wax ring fail down the road I will have to install the flange extension. Thanks to this video here any future toilet installs I do I'll be checking the horn height, wax ring thickness and flange height relative to the finished floor to figure our exactly what I need to do and hopefully install the toilet once lol.
Thank you for the quick tip on this. I was thinking I probably need to be about a 1/4" above the floor. Just had my bathroom floor redone and need to bring it up a bit. Good stuff.
Thank you so much for your opinion on this, I agree with you now 100% after being back and forth with other opinions..... what you have just explained to me is what I was thinking the entire time and I'm glad I came across this because it's sheer common sense
The flange should be high enough so the horn on the bottom of the toilet can fit INSIDE the flange. Otherwise you're relying on the wax to seal the water and its really only to seal gases. Remember horn INSIDE of flange. Not even, not close, not above, INSIDE. Make it so with wouldn't leak even if you didn't have a wax ring.
Thank you very much. Nobody addresses this problem on UA-cam. I bought a new toilet, installed it and it leaked. Replaced the flange because it wasn't level thinking that was the problem. Now I realize the new flange is too high because my toilet horn extended lower than the toilet base. And to make things more fun it's in concrete.
@@michaelmcgee2026 Yeah, I found out the hard way, but I tell you what, the next guy that pulls this toilet is going to be impressed because I left him a work of art.
You are only the second person on YT that has so far mentioned this, and it's wonderful, more people need to know. The flange is female, the toilet horn is male. If you look at the flange, you'll see a beveled shoulder, that's what the horn is supposed to go into, as close as possible. If more people realized this, they sure wouldn't want the gaps that a lot of them have.
On that note. As a plumber. There are so many toilet manufactures now and flanges available there is no correct answer. I've installed many cheap toilets where there is only 3/8" under the toilet and if you set your flange on top of the finish floor using a PVC flange which is a minimum of 1/4" thick your wax ring would only be 1/8" thick now. We know that ain't gonna work. Now you need a thin metal flange. Then there is the opposite where you use a toilet that has a 5/8 to 3/4" height under the toilet and the flange is flush to the tile surface or lower. You now have the opposite problem. I've seen where the plumbers have had to set toilets 3/8" off the floor using toilet shims in order to make the remodel project workable where the plumber didn't set the flange himself.
We replaced an older toilet in our home. It was not leaking. It was an early 'water-saver' toilet with very poor flush power. We replaced it with a Glacier Bay Power Flush model. We've been installing that model in our rental properties for years because we never get 'clogged toilet' complaints from tenants. The top of the flange was at the same height as the tile. It was mounted very stoutly - no movement. Our 1-storey house is built on slab - no crawlspace. Only one wax ring had been used and again the old toilet did not leak. It did not rock left-to-right while sitting on it. And no shims had been used to achieve that 'no rock' condition - there were none present when we pulled the old toilet. "Okay, we'll install the new toilet with one wax ring, no problem." The toilet does not leak. BUT IT ROCKS! We used the regular-sized wax ring that came with the new toilet. I am so glad you have mentioned this issue of the drain horn. I did not use a straight edge to determine if the drain horn was flush with the bottom (floor-facing) rim of the new toilet. We had to use plastic shims to stop the rocking. RECAP - old toilet did not rock - did not leak either - sat level on the floor, no shims used - only one wax ring had been used My guess is EITHER manufacturing error, and the drain horn descends deeper towards the floor than the toilet rim, or it was no error, maybe they've gotten too many returned toilets because - as I've heard - most toilet flanges are installed like ours was - NOT on top of the finished floor, but to the subfloor. .
@@Greg_Chase believe it or not, but toilets shrink 20%. They’re in the manufacturing process during kiln drying. That’s probably where your warped base came about.
To many variables. If the floor is not level then flush with the floor can be worse. The wax ring compresses over time. Toilets can be come loose and compress the wax ring even more, creating a potential leak
Firstly, the part underneath the toilet is the horn. Flush to the floor is a bad idea because leaks will easily occur if the wax ring should fail. ¼ of an inch is acceptable. Also, bear in mind that a toilet is sometimes installed using a floor flange.
Plumber here-- if you have a wax seal and the toilet moves, you have a leak. Some of us professionals will use a foam bowl seal. You will not find these at the big box stores, they cost about 7- 10 dollars. We use them especially for commercial work. They come in 4 thicknesses- 3/8, 1/2”, 9/16 and 1”. Solved many problems with these. The DIY community has no idea that they exist. Maybe now. For the questioners out there, I am referring to a full 7” that covers the FLOOR flange, not the smaller size for wall hung toilets on a carrier.
@@HomeImproveman Thanks for the reply HIM, I put plastic shims or popsicle sticks under the side that was going down when I sat on it. I think the flange may be a lil higher than the recommended flush to quarter inch. The problem I’ve had with tightening the two bolts is it may deform a plastic(pvc) flange or break a cast iron flange.
@@HomeImproveman Rocking is often due to either a flange that is too thick or variance in floor flatness, and in both cases tightening the mounting bolts won't help. If you tighten too much you risk cracking the porcelain or breaking the flange where it holds the bolt heads. Those bolts shouldn't need to be very tight at all. So, I would have a close look at the flange height and the floor to decide why it is rocking. Ongoing rocking is not good because it leads to oblong compression of the wax ring so much that it will eventually leak. So I would plan to replace the wax ring on any toilet that has been rocking. You want the top of the flange to be slightly above the surface of the floor, if only to reduce the volume of water directly contacting the seal. If all looks good at the flange, and the floor appears to be the cause, then shimming the perimeter rim of the toilet with plastic shims is the best solution. Many would apply cosmetic caulk to the front side of the toilet once you're happy with the shim height, although you don't want to caulk the rear so water will be able to seep out and give early warning. If the toilet has been leaking you may need to examine and even replace the subfloor if it is water damaged.
Great video! The toilet flange in my bathroom sits below the tile and I used a flange extender to raise it above the tile surface but now I am not able to set the toilet. The toilet does not sit right on the flange and the edge of the toilet bas has a big gap with the tile surface. Is this normal? Thanks.
it happens. Two solutions: the easiest is to use shims to balance the toilet but you will still be left with the gaps that you will need to caulk. The other is to use a shorter extender or a jumbo wax ring but that means you are starting over again.
I am not a plumber, but I would think it is not a problem unless the toilet is hitting the flange. You want some wax between the toilet and flange to create a seal.
Look it up at this way the "CORRECT" way to install the toilet flange is on top of the FINISHED floor, the flange is the crown of a bathroom floor, Got it?
Put wax ring on idk what the height it was but my wife sat on it squeezed all the wax out the sides and fell through the floor onto our downstairs neighbors dining room table while they were eating thanksgivin turkey dinner
The flange should be sitting on top of the finished floor. (Or at the level where it would be sitting on top of the floor if the finished floor actually touched the lead or plastic drain pipe.) If it is a little bit higher or lower it may still be usable. I always set the toilet in place on the floor after I install the closet bolts "without" the wax ring. (This way I know exactly where the toilet is going to end up on the floor) Then I install soft wobble wedges and level the toilet.
Then I lift the toilet off the floor and install a standard wax ring if the flange is not too low or too high. I know how high the flange is (relative to the bottom of the toilet) when I place a straight edge across the wedges and measure the distance from the bottom of the straight edge to the top of the flange. I install a thick wax ring if the flange is a little low. (I install a new flange if the flange is way too low or too high. This is at additional cost to the customer if needed)
I do the above method because if I just placed the wax ring on the flange and set the toilet down and then leveled the toilet, it is likely that the toilet will lift up after compressing the wax ring. If that happens you have a gap between the bottom of the toilet and the wax ring. It will no longer be air and water tight. The wax rig has no 'springy action'. Once it compresses down, it stays down forever.
After I install the correct wax ring on to the flange, I set the toilet down. Then I sit on the toilet to compress the wax ring. Then I install the bottom of the china caps and the closet bolt washers and nuts. Then I tighten the nuts to set the toilet.
Then I flush the toilet about 10 times and look for leaks under the toilet. If no leaks are found I cut off the soft shims even with the sides of the toilet with a razor knife. Then I cut off the excess closet bolt a few threads above the nut and then install the china cap.
Then I install DAP all the way around the bottom of the toilet except the very back. (Some customers prefer to not DAP the toilet. Make sure you ask them before you install any DAP) I leave the back open so if any leaks occur in the future, the leak can be detected as early as possible. This could save the customer a lot of money by finding a leak before it causes a lot of water damage.
Then I do all the paper work and go back and check for water on the floor again. If no water is found I go get the customer and show them the new toilet and be sure they know how to operate the toilet before I leave the home. I make sure they are happy with the install and get them to sign off on the job and re-explain the warranty and the fact that if any problems occur during the warranty we will come out to fix it free of charge no matter when they call, day or night. I ask them for the third time if there is anything else they need to have addressed while I am there. If not, I pet the dog and get my tools and say good-bye. Then I drive off and call the dispatcher from a location away from that home to wait for a new call.
You are very anal but also very prideful in your work. I can tell that you are a master plumber
I'm starting to think the biggest problem is what happens if you have a leak. With the flange lower than the floor or even maybe level with floor, with a leak, you might not detect the leak until the damage is already done on the subfloor. Now with the flange on top of the floor, you will see the leak first (assuming you aren't oblivious to everything, especially shit water) and can fix it before too much damage. That is atleast what I'm gather on this matter.
Thank you for this demo!
The horn of the toilet should enter part way into the flange on the floor. Therefore the flange should be on top of the finished floor. There is no other correct answer. If the top of the flange was even with the top of the finished floor, the toilet horn would meet the flange like a butt joint and you would be relying completely on the wax to prevent leaks. Definitely not a good idea. Install the flange on top of the finished floor. Period.
Thank you! You nailed it. Flande must be above finished floor because like you said horn goes partly in toilet flange thus creating leak tight toilet.Why is this so hard to understand.Lot of misinformation out there.If the flange Top is flash with floor then you need a flange extender to bring up quarter inch up.
" The horn of the toilet should enter part way into the flange on the floor. "
Exactly .
.
My flange is 2 inches below floor, it's cast iron. The max extender goes to 1 and 5/8 inches.
@@shawnj9565multiple gaskets, silicone between each gasket.
Flush with the finished floor is no good if your toilet horn is 5/8" cos your typical wax ring is only about 3/4" thick. That means 1/8" compression of the wax which is no good. In my situation the flange was slightly above the finished floor (1/16" roughly maybe more as it wasn't level) and I used a regular wax ring and when I installed the toilet there was no compression of the wax ring at all, in fact no contact with the flange. I re-installed with a extra thick wax ring and that worked as expected. I could have installed a flange extension but lot easier and cheaper using the extra thick wax ring. Should the extra thick wax ring fail down the road I will have to install the flange extension. Thanks to this video here any future toilet installs I do I'll be checking the horn height, wax ring thickness and flange height relative to the finished floor to figure our exactly what I need to do and hopefully install the toilet once lol.
Finally, someone who gives you a very good description. You’re the only one out there thank you.
Happy to help!
Thank you for the quick tip on this. I was thinking I probably need to be about a 1/4" above the floor. Just had my bathroom floor redone and need to bring it up a bit. Good stuff.
Thank you so much for your opinion on this, I agree with you now 100% after being back and forth with other opinions..... what you have just explained to me is what I was thinking the entire time and I'm glad I came across this because it's sheer common sense
The flange should be high enough so the horn on the bottom of the toilet can fit INSIDE the flange. Otherwise you're relying on the wax to seal the water and its really only to seal gases. Remember horn INSIDE of flange. Not even, not close, not above, INSIDE. Make it so with wouldn't leak even if you didn't have a wax ring.
Thank you very much. Nobody addresses this problem on UA-cam. I bought a new toilet, installed it and it leaked. Replaced the flange because it wasn't level thinking that was the problem. Now I realize the new flange is too high because my toilet horn extended lower than the toilet base. And to make things more fun it's in concrete.
He's half right. Needs to be a 1/4 inch above the floor not level. If it's level you need a flange extension. Don't listen to these UA-cam hacks.
@@michaelmcgee2026 Yeah, I found out the hard way, but I tell you what, the next guy that pulls this toilet is going to be impressed because I left him a work of art.
@@darkpassenger65 lol nice
@@darkpassenger65 you smeared the wax and shit didn’t you…it’s called a super seal…yep been there, don’t that 👍
You are only the second person on YT that has so far mentioned this, and it's wonderful, more people need to know.
The flange is female, the toilet horn is male. If you look at the flange, you'll see a beveled shoulder, that's what the horn is supposed to go into, as close as possible. If more people realized this, they sure wouldn't want the gaps that a lot of them have.
On that note. As a plumber. There are so many toilet manufactures now and flanges available there is no correct answer. I've installed many cheap toilets where there is only 3/8" under the toilet and if you set your flange on top of the finish floor using a PVC flange which is a minimum of 1/4" thick your wax ring would only be 1/8" thick now. We know that ain't gonna work. Now you need a thin metal flange. Then there is the opposite where you use a toilet that has a 5/8 to 3/4" height under the toilet and the flange is flush to the tile surface or lower. You now have the opposite problem. I've seen where the plumbers have had to set toilets 3/8" off the floor using toilet shims in order to make the remodel project workable where the plumber didn't set the flange himself.
Great to know. I assumed that toilet manufacturers were adhering to some sort of standard. Thanks for chiming in.
We replaced an older toilet in our home. It was not leaking. It was an early 'water-saver' toilet with very poor flush power. We replaced it with a Glacier Bay Power Flush model. We've been installing that model in our rental properties for years because we never get 'clogged toilet' complaints from tenants.
The top of the flange was at the same height as the tile. It was mounted very stoutly - no movement. Our 1-storey house is built on slab - no crawlspace.
Only one wax ring had been used and again the old toilet did not leak. It did not rock left-to-right while sitting on it. And no shims had been used to achieve that 'no rock' condition - there were none present when we pulled the old toilet.
"Okay, we'll install the new toilet with one wax ring, no problem." The toilet does not leak. BUT IT ROCKS! We used the regular-sized wax ring that came with the new toilet.
I am so glad you have mentioned this issue of the drain horn. I did not use a straight edge to determine if the drain horn was flush with the bottom (floor-facing) rim of the new toilet.
We had to use plastic shims to stop the rocking.
RECAP
- old toilet did not rock
- did not leak either
- sat level on the floor, no shims used
- only one wax ring had been used
My guess is EITHER manufacturing error, and the drain horn descends deeper towards the floor than the toilet rim, or it was no error, maybe they've gotten too many returned toilets because - as I've heard - most toilet flanges are installed like ours was - NOT on top of the finished floor, but to the subfloor.
.
@@Greg_Chase believe it or not, but toilets shrink 20%. They’re in the manufacturing process during kiln drying. That’s probably where your warped base came about.
The toilet shims ...do they help balance the porcine toilet base
@@KainsFleshlight They do, but they can also pull the toilet away from the flange so use them sparingly.
Thank you for keeping it simple
You bet!
Thank you!
Thank you
The hole is called the horn and the horn should be in the closet flange. The closet flange should ALWAYS sit on top of the finished floor.
flange goes on top of finished floor with regular wax ring...do not use the one with plastic horn
To many variables. If the floor is not level then flush with the floor can be worse. The wax ring compresses over time.
Toilets can be come loose and compress the wax ring even more, creating a potential leak
Firstly, the part underneath the toilet is the horn. Flush to the floor is a bad idea because leaks will easily occur if the wax ring should fail. ¼ of an inch is acceptable. Also, bear in mind that a toilet is sometimes installed using a floor flange.
Yup , you are correct. The horn should fit down in the flange some. Thanks
When flange is mounted flush to the (finished) floor the top of it will already be 1/4" above.
Plumber here-- if you have a wax seal and the toilet moves, you have a leak. Some of us professionals will use a foam bowl seal. You will not find these at the big box stores, they cost about 7- 10 dollars. We use them especially for commercial work. They come in 4 thicknesses- 3/8, 1/2”, 9/16 and 1”. Solved many problems with these.
The DIY community has no idea that they exist. Maybe now.
For the questioners out there, I am referring to a full 7” that covers the FLOOR flange, not the smaller size for wall hung toilets on a carrier.
Just saw the foam bowl seal on an episode of This Old House for the first time on youtube. Like you said, most of us didn't know they existed.
Ty!
A problem I find is rock n roll toilets. When you sit on them they move a lil.
A common cause is that the bolts on the base are too loose. Try tightening them up.
@@HomeImproveman Thanks for the reply HIM, I put plastic shims or popsicle sticks under the side that was going down when I sat on it. I think the flange may be a lil higher than the recommended flush to quarter inch. The problem I’ve had with tightening the two bolts is it may deform a plastic(pvc) flange or break a cast iron flange.
@@HomeImproveman Rocking is often due to either a flange that is too thick or variance in floor flatness, and in both cases tightening the mounting bolts won't help. If you tighten too much you risk cracking the porcelain or breaking the flange where it holds the bolt heads. Those bolts shouldn't need to be very tight at all. So, I would have a close look at the flange height and the floor to decide why it is rocking. Ongoing rocking is not good because it leads to oblong compression of the wax ring so much that it will eventually leak. So I would plan to replace the wax ring on any toilet that has been rocking. You want the top of the flange to be slightly above the surface of the floor, if only to reduce the volume of water directly contacting the seal. If all looks good at the flange, and the floor appears to be the cause, then shimming the perimeter rim of the toilet with plastic shims is the best solution. Many would apply cosmetic caulk to the front side of the toilet once you're happy with the shim height, although you don't want to caulk the rear so water will be able to seep out and give early warning. If the toilet has been leaking you may need to examine and even replace the subfloor if it is water damaged.
Have you ever try this method
Great video!
The toilet flange in my bathroom sits below the tile and I used a flange extender to raise it above the tile surface but now I am not able to set the toilet. The toilet does not sit right on the flange and the edge of the toilet bas has a big gap with the tile surface. Is this normal? Thanks.
it happens. Two solutions: the easiest is to use shims to balance the toilet but you will still be left with the gaps that you will need to caulk. The other is to use a shorter extender or a jumbo wax ring but that means you are starting over again.
What if the flange is higher at say 1/2” is that bad? Trying to fix a smelly toilet.
I am not a plumber, but I would think it is not a problem unless the toilet is hitting the flange. You want some wax between the toilet and flange to create a seal.
Look it up at this way the "CORRECT" way to install the toilet flange is on top of the FINISHED floor, the flange is the crown of a bathroom floor, Got it?
The flange is the crown, the toilet is the throne, and leaks are a royal pain in my ass!
Can it sit flush on the rough floor?
this is not optimal because when you add flooring, the flange will be low. But it also depends on how thick your flooring is.
The mental hell you saved me from...Thank you😌
just where is theirs centímeters of leaving floor to yuo toilet
🤣🤣
I was pretty confused with all the measuring and the upside down demonstration. ?
Of course you were...lol.
The explanation with a right side up toilet is also confusing.
Rewatch the video while standing on your head.
Will clear everything up.
@@Mudpuppyjunior 🙌😅
The code states that a toilet flange is to be mounted on top of the finished floor.
Put wax ring on idk what the height it was but my wife sat on it squeezed all the wax out the sides and fell through the floor onto our downstairs neighbors dining room table while they were eating thanksgivin turkey dinner
not just whas that tank yuo for the dreil is not have now one bosh make
@@ezequielballado4495 exactly
@@ezequielballado4495 I just had a seizure trying to read that.
dude.. my eyes are watering so bad from laughing my ass off, just picturing this scenario.
Always but the flange even with th surface of the floor
Is it the mouth of the toilet, or the butthole of the toilet? One could argue the bowl is the mouth of the toilet.