Thinking back to the first derby of Rodgers' second spell, I remember we had a lot of injuries heading into the game and we ended up playing pretty pragmatically. I'm sure Rodgers even said something at the time about needing to play differently due to the circumstances. We got a priceless 0-1 result that day thanks to a first half Kyogo goal and a MotM performance from Liam Scales. Why we were willing to accept the circumstances required a more sensible approach that day at Ibrox, but not Tuesday's visit to Dortmund is beyond me. I think we're actually more willing to adopt some degree of caution at Ibrox than we are at the Bernabeu!!! It's madness.
Agree with Stevie. I was in the West Stand with an amazing aerial view of both teams and even though i was totally pished I could see our weak press getting totally destroyed in the first 5 to 10 minutes. I also knew what was coming when I saw that. I knew what was coming so I was shuttling to the bar all night. It was hard looking over at the Celtic corner from the West stand as Id spoke to dozens of fans who made jounreys via mad countries like Denmark, Belgium, Austria and Czechia and then overnight buses to Dortmund, that broke my heart given how much cash people paid to make horrible journeys. For me I was expecting Engles and Callum to have been in a defensive double pivot to block, and destroy, with our back 4 sittng a bit deeper and possibly only a soft press in favour of keeping the shape. But that's not what I saw. Also goal difference really matters now. Still the Media and National Football Museum in Dortmund was nice, there's always that.
I was at the game in a Dortmund standing section. I felt so embarressed while the Dortmund fans, who saw their Team getting slaughtered by Stuttgart and not particulary playing well against Bruges and Bochum, were stunned how easy this was. Celtic is a proud club and Rodgers has to adapt. Losing happens but this is unacceptable.
Fully agree mate. There is losing against a superior side and then there is being embarrassed. As bad as it was to watch it at home on tv I felt for the fans like yourself who went over to witness that debacle. Against these elite sides, away from home especially, we have to change it up.
@@SeanO22Gallagher If you can't see that there is a chasm a light year wide between Celtic and Dortmund then you don't know football. Celtic and their squad have been in decline since O Neill days, you aren't playing the same game as Dortmund and so results like this, whilst unpleasant are inevitable. No one in the Celtic squad is of Champions League standard, they look ok in one of the worlds worst leagues in Scotland , but we all saw how slow and technically poor they were on Tuesday. You might not like it, but you just have to accept you aren't capable of progressing at this level. Have 5 years in Europa, because the CL is several steps too high for a Scottish club.
@@sandersson2813 I live in Germany I know the Bundesliga. Checkout what Sparta Prague did in Stuttgart, check out Bochums squad. It’s not as easy as you make it
@@SeanO22Gallagher In not sure you are getting my point. My point was that there is a chasm between Celtic and Dortmund, not that it's easy in Germany. Celtic fans suffer delusions of grandeur, that it's still 1967, they don't realise how small and insignificant they are, and the can't see their decline has been ongoing for decades whilst other teams garner wealth and improved player and management talent. In short, Celtic are just a nobody team and Dortmund fans probably had to Google them before realising how easy a game it would be.
Stevie makes a great point about Arsenal. They respect the opponent and have a manager that's willing to park his ego in order to get the results required. We're talking about a team that could realistically win the Champions League but even they will set up to be hard to beat away from home against Atalanta. If Rodgers doesn't do similar then for me he's either deluded or too married to a playing style that hangs the players out to dry. Ironically something Ange was slated for when he was here.
At least Ange was up front about how he wanted his teams to play and believed that 'parking the bus' was an offence to the fans who paid to watch them.
I was recovering in hospital, trying to convince the Surgeon on Tuesday morning that he should let me home to watch the game. No chance, and I grateful. Listened up to 3-1 and turned off and checked in. For the thousands that travelled, I feel for you. A total rethink is needed and that’s down to Rodgers. Things MUST change.
my match simulation was suggesting celtic had a 50% probability of drawing against dortmund, but the fatal flaw in my thinking was assumming smart people like rodgers and kennedy would come up with half decent tactics rather than the nonsense that was dished out. the loss 100% on the manager. net xg margin for the game was around .6 in dortmunds favour . that usually means 70% probability of dortmund winning by 1 goal or a draw, so 7,1 was an outlier result, and all down to kennedys and rodgers pressing tactics. pressing with just 5 , the 3 forwards and mids , if celtic dont get the turnover ,dortmund 1 pass away from outnumbering or overloading celtic in transition , and thats what happened . what worked against bratislava wont work against adeyemi and co. to make matters worse , adeyemi generally has a floating role , but dortmund did there homework and set adeyemi up against taylor , it was frightening to watch . they also did there homework on kennedys press , and decided they could handle celtic with 5/6 defence and put 3/4 up against the shoulders of the celtic backs . again it was a nightmare to watch . in an alternative universe this is what celtic could have done , either celtic go all 10 man on man press , and not give dortmund the out ball , but dortmunds indiviual billiance would win that arguement, or celtic have to do what the rest of the spfl do to it , run a soft press with phased retreat to a mid to low block . in practice, you would have maeda and kyogo, harassing the dortmund backs when dortmund have the ball, but not too much, just enough to slow down the transition a few seconds, while they also retreat, and the rest of the mids retreat at mid speed to a blocking pattern , and you would set the block up as a 451. 4 at the back, and 5 in the front line , to make sure celtic have enough bodies in the middle of the block. to stop adeyemis left foot, and when celtic get a turnover , kyogo meada and kuhn hair off down the paddock for a long ball over the top . falkirk used 451 against celtic to great affect until they ran out of legs, aberdeen also adopted similar tactics last season to good effect. which brings me to another point , celtic didnt use the long ball option enough, because trying to transition on dortmund and turning over the ball can be fatal. celtic lost the ball 14 times , 11 in their own half. celtic had to force a scenario where dortmund continually had to build slower from the back , and celtic maintain their defensive shape the great shame about all this is, a bit better game management iq by the manager and coach , could have made it a very tricky night for dortmund i could go on, but that will do for today, keep up the great work
Keep hearing that Scottish teams can't compete at this level, but didn't the rangers beat Dortmund over 2 legs not too long ago (and RB Leipzig in the same competition)? Yes it's a huge challenge, but if you are more pragmatic, it is possible
I agree and disagree. I agree in the short term for this current campaign. The game is gone and we've still six more games and we can still qualify for the next phase. So that is what we should concentrate on. I disagree in terms of the bigger picture. Big picture, this wasn't a one off game because it keeps on happening when we go away to the Pot1 clubs. We need to find a way of making ourselves harder to beat in these games. At least give these teams something to think about as opposed to just playing right in to their hands every single time.
@@Mantis_Toboggan_MD. It can be a one off game for this completely entirely new bunch of players. Or fans can keep hounding them and completely smash the rest of their morale to guarantee we lose every other game 🤷♂️
A one off? Like PSG X2, Athletico Madrid, Barcelona and now Dortmund? Yeah, really a one off. Why can't you just be realistic and honest about where Celtic are in European football? You can see they aren't up to this level, just as no Scottish team will ever be.
Barcelona 7 Celtic 0 Celtic 0 PSG 5 PSG 7 Celtic 1 Athletico Madrid 6 Celtic 0 Dortmund 7 Celtic 1 Yeah, looks like a "one off to me" Why can't you just accept that Celtic are NOT a team which can do well in this competition?
Agree with Stevie regarding Calmac knowing what was coming at 2-1. I wonder if he had any influence on changing the formation, are the players and back room staff are scared to question BRs tactics..
I'm still hurting & just embarrassed about it but at the end of the day it's 3 points out of 6 were still in a very good position the team & manager have 6 games to make it up for us. 🍀
The main adjustment needed is to know when to press high and not do it all the time. Rodgers has to learn, or it will keep happening. Dare I say it, he needs a chat with Lennon IMO.
The worrying thing is I just don’t see this changing anytime soon I generally like and enjoy what Brendan is doing domestically but unfortunately I don’t see him doing anything radically different
Am I remembering this wrongly or did we have a slightly more pragmatic approach last season whilst still playing attacking football when it was on, that’s the strategy I thought we would use in Dortmund
They’re professional players in a professional team. They MUST be able to play in more than one formation. It should be a counter attacking 4-5-1 away in Europe. If you go in against a heavyweight in their own back yard with your guard down you will get battered. It’s happened far too often.
It’s all down to experience in playing with an adaptive style that nullifies your opponent of a decent quality, our bread and butter games don’t give us the opportunity to gain this experience that’s required at this level . A few more decent teams in our league that put proper pressure on us would only improve our own game and prepare us better for Europe. Sounds like an excuse but at this elite level it’s what we need.
I'm not worried about the Atalanta game because its a game we expected to lose and penciled in as a loss before the tournament, however its an opportunity to try a different tactical approach against a similar level opponent to Dortmund. We'll see if Brendan and/or the players have learned anything.
The problem is we don’t have any proper defensive midfielders and I was always saying that we need to buy a proper no6 for the CL! The midfield was terrible, but why didn’t Rodgers change it when it was obvious that it wasn’t working! Rodgers is arrogant regarding his ability!
Take the hit, learn from it, change tactics, if attacks are coming through the middle bring the wingers in, bring detached forwards closer to midfield, close down space, increase sitting midfield. Don't squander resources through a poorly executed high press. Arsenal did this when they played Atalanta! Most of all take the hit, learn from it and move on.
Great Japan kit, I don't follow Celtic closely but BVB are not St Johnstone. The occasion got to the Scottish team. There is a gulf between the SPL and Bundesliga. That's why Germany are 4-time World Cup winners. BVB are Champions League finalists in 24. I cannot see this going much more than that. Wishing the Hoops well.
Rangers fan, non bigoted, here. Gotta say, it was a bad night at the office for you guys but at least you always wanna play attacking football. We got our tactics right against Dortmund a couple of seasons ago and the smaller teams in Germany do the same. Sit back, soak up pressure, catch them on the break down the flanks and over the top. I'm sure you will bounce back which can only be good for Scottish football if we both perform well in Europe.
Exactly its not rocket science. We have a front three that are quick and perfect for a counter attack strategy away from home. The fact Rodgers continues with a front 5 high press leaving mcgregor isolated as the sitter is embarassing stuff at this level. If he does the same in Atalanta it could be another scudding.
good point but rangers seem to adapt easier to the bigger opponent, than celtic do, rangers put more emphasis on tactics and defence, celtic just go all out kamikaze style, its madness, the most dissapointing thing about celtic in europe is we are underachieving and have been for yonks simply cos we dont adapt enough to the demands of the bigger game in europe,
We need a physicality in midfield against these teams. A breaker. Someone that can hold the ball. I said about Idah up front as he's the physicality and playing him too to hold the ball up and get us out. There midfield swarmed all over us.
Idah upfront would have made no difference. The way to play away from home against better teams, is to sit in be compact and quick counter attacks. With kyogo, khun and meada we have the speed for that. Engles and bernardo should have been closer to mcgregor instead of pressing high with the front three. The fact Rodgers couldnt change and adapt during the game is alarming and the atalanta game will be inetersting as it could be another scudding if he cant get away from this high press nonsense against better teams.
Dortmund physically bullied and abused the Celtic team, many of whom completely shit themselves! McGregor had a nightmare and could provide nothing in support of any attempt to get up the park. The two T’ its at the back lost the plot, with Taylor hiding and chucking it. We need more physicality on the park. I think the Norwegian midfield Bhoy is worth another chance, he kicks people back!
Now the dust has settled we must realise it was the perfect storm . We were shell shocked within 10 mins and never recovered , they were top of their game . We are much better than we showed but the bottle was smashed early and once the nerve goes you are done .. what we all have to realise that they have said thet were top of their game and we had a total collapse that’s what happens in cl when that happens . Leipzig pumped 7-0 by man city last year . Barca were whacked In Spain 8-2 in the quarters by munch a few years back . They also battered spurs 7-2 in London . There can be nights like that against the top boys
players that can adapt from one style to another to produce an effort that can result in a good performance cost a lot of money and celtic need more than one.
You dont see similar teams of our standing get doings like that time and time again,on Rodgers im afraid,will he ever change,need to change,simple as that,if not,more doings on the way
BR talks about keeping our identity and a better team dismantle us, he has explained why publicly. This is what being a UCL finalist 5 months ago with 15 players valued 15-40m euros a piece 5 of which are 40m. Ange talked about plan B being do plan A better.. the exact same thing. We play 60 games a season, we play euro football like 8 games a season IF we make the league stage. You want to go from the Jock Stein quote "We did it by playing football. Pure, beautiful, inventive football." to what Messi termed Sevco's play: anti-football? We could have went flat back 10 and still got beaten, they had the talent to unlock a 10-0-0 btw. We judge this by Bratislava, Young Boys, Zagreb and Brugge NOT Dortmund, Leipzig, Atalanta, VIlla. "It comes down to the manager"? 38 games, about £4m prize money. Get angry, you should. Cancel your Sky sub and tell them why. Best supported European league per capita poorly subsidized by TV deals even compared to other relatively sized nations. You can't make a quarter finalist out of 90+m running costs a year versus teams with 400m+ euro squads. And spare me the ridiculous "money doesn't matter" pish. When and where has that EVER been true? A Roy of the Rovers wee guy upset? Aye, but you can't bank on that. We win the Prem title, the League Cup, the Scottish Cup and qualify for Europe and get a chance to get better and hopefully qualify and do better with more experience and hopefully an upgraded XI. It's not like we have a choice. FIFA have ruled out sugar daddys and who would sugar daddy us enough to put us on level footing with Man City? I don't like it, but unfortunately we have to live in the real world. I will be more upset if we get a kicking from Young Boys, Zagreb and Brugge. The fatalism from some fans, man. Make their Sevco pals proud so it would. We have enough people talking us down from outside. It kills our stock, it makes us unattractive for recruitment and retention. Circle the wagons and put it in perspective KTF HH
Brendan has to park his ego, this narrative of managers that never change their style no matter the circumstances being peddled as a virtue has to go man. It’s fuckin dogma. Brendan is great but he has to adapt in Europe. Sparta Prague get a great draw in Stuttgart and I bet they played deep and hit on the counter so it can be done.
It wouldn’t have taken a massive tactical change to compete and give ourselves a fighting chance. As the guys say, start the match cagey and cautious, don’t let midfielders leave their posts and don’t t let wingers press so high often (especially 2-1 and 3-1 down) exposing out defence. We played like we were playing Hibs at home….!
Our weaknesses were clearly there to see against Dortmund, other teams in this CL group will see this and will be rubbing their hands seeing us as very weak. Brendan Rodgers needs to take most of the blame and needs to make huge changes against Atalanta
Poor league? Ajax in the early 1970s were 3 time European champions coming from a poor league with little competition. In 2024, Sparta Prague also manage to get results coming from a "poor" league.
The biggest disappointment of the night was Rodgers , all the good work obliterated in 90mins,leading up to the game most of us were convinced Brendan had this sorted and playing a pot 1 team he had a plan , unfortunately playing in the SPL we are going to struggle and are looking like a Europa conference league team .
A list of people wanting Rodger’s style of play against top teams in Europe Brendan Rodgers A list of people not wanting to see BR’s style of play. The starting 11 The subs The back room staff that have to pick them up after The board and marketing department since there won’t be any Celtic 2 Barcelona 1 videos to sell Most importantly, the fans. BR is putting his ego before everyone else. Just be compact and play on the counter attack.
Perspective... Dortmund themselves were pumped 5-1 not long ago!. We're poor in quality & finances because of the Scottish League but we react in horror when we're pumped because in our own league, we never lose. Lose, we must... Or we will never improve
Dortmund took the game very seriously and the outcome was a consequence. Lucky that it was only seven, our players could not pass the ball. It was just series of unforced errors. We will not be the first or the last team who climbs the hill to play at Bergamo and leaves with nothing. We will not stop Seško at Celtic park or get anything at Villa, either. Our fate in this tournament hinges on the games against Brugge, Zagreb and Young Boys.
We don't have the quality of player to go toe to toe with these players and try to impose OUR game on these type of teams?? Our manager and coaches have enough footage of these teams so why can't they organise a gameplan to combat them???
Rodgers is playing football the right way but you have to differentiate between teams of lesser or teams of higher ability and adjust the style. Rodgers is way to stubborn for his own good
"Its still achievable to get enough points"? What's that prediction based on? Emotion? Are you not again underestimating the championship league opposition? Our manager said he wont change!
An embarrassment to the fans, the club and Scottish football. An apology should be issued and a massive reassessment of how we setup on European nights. Those results are damaging psychologically for players and can create a long-lasting inferiority complex. I fully expect the players to now be spooked in this Euro campaign regardless of opposition
The manager has got to take the blame, that's the 3rd time we've lost 7 goals in Europe under his watch, he's totally incapable of change, he's an Embarrassment
Got up @ 3:30 am in Japan to watch the game. Stopped watching the game as the first-half whistle went @ 4:45 am; 1-5....!! Couldn't take any more... Rodgers 2nd 1-7 defeat.. Why hasn't he learned *anything* from all those humbling defeats under his management & tactics? Utterly shameful performance. Painfully embarrassing. Unfathomably passive. Where’s the fight, the drive, the fire? ATALANTA will run up a cricket-score if we play anywhere like we did on Tuesday. We need to set-up 5-4-1 -or- 4-5-1, and each player must be given a player to man-mark 100% the whole game. If we don't change our tactics, then Rodgers really has to be given a severe bollocking from the Board &, *much more importantly, The Celtic Supporters*; Quite simply, he cannot be allowed to set-up the team like he did on Tuesday, *EVER AGAIN*...
Mental how deluded we were thinking we’d beat Dortmund, reality is we lost O’Riley and Joe Heart and replaced them with Engels (a project) and Schmeichel. We’re worse off than previous years.
Brendan has handed Celtic worst results in Europe from all managers that we have had . A fair number of them losses have been very heavy defeats around 4/5 heavy defeats iN Europe and seems to me he has no plan B when in Europe away from home , in particualrly we need to get in better defender/s stronger and more able , and sit back tighter with going on breaks . We lack stronger better defenders at the back , and more quality in need . Brendan Rodgers is not the answer , he has been here before in Europe first time , and then last season and now this season so no he is not the answer . Not good enough this Brendan guy . And he did say one hour before the match in Dortmund his very words were " We are ready " did not seem like it to me , with such a heavy loss in which was embarrassing to Celtic and Scottish football
So long as Celtic are involved in Scottish football playing against largely Micky mouse teams means that they can never ever be prepared for playing against the elite teams of Europe. Compare Celtics performance against Aston Villa a team that hasn't played top flight football for 41 yrs
Will rodgers change does he have change and what will look like ??question is does he know what change looks like can he change cause he has never done it and i dont think with him he has 2nd plan or plan B. .. with all fancy words and sopppsed modern managment skills he sopposedly has he fails massively when comes to change in europe ?
Dont know why we surprisedrodgers has never done anything europe with any team .. Im still in camp of judas with him and have never shifted from my view .get 1 chance like you do with a WIFE once cheated then its DONE with me .. Id have prefered at time knutsen at bodo glimt when we played them he showed his style was like ange so wouldnt been much change but and this but in his favour .. he can change in europe thats why bodo glimt have had successin europe so speak against bigger clubs compared to them in europe .. 🍀🍀🏴🇵🇸🏴🇵🇸
rogers is out of his depth in european football when a big team comes along, he simply dosent have a clue about tactics, defensive capability, and the need to make things difficult for the opponent, its not rocket science but most teams adapt to the quality of opps they face, if your facing a team of dortmunds standard you need to defend deep in numbers and try hit them on the break, if your going to give the ball away make sure the opponent cant break quickly on you, i watched the villa game last night and the atalanta game and sadly i fear the worst, rogers wont change, he is too stupid, villa will out muscle us, atalanta will outthink us, brendan youve learned nothing from the past european humpings which you oversaw, stop making the same lame and tired excuses, and change things, if you put the same ingredients into every stew you make it will always taste the same, try a new ingredient brendan, sadly iwas correct about brendan never ever stepping up in europe with celtic, the odd good result against average opposition will happen from time to time but were in for more hammerings as long as brendan is in charge, and also i think a large proportion of celtic fans live in the past, footballs changed cant you see, what worked in the 60,s and 70,s dosent work today,
We.are.not in the top level of teams in Europe your best Germans Italians English Spanish and a cpl of French teams our level is the second tier like the Dutch Austrians Belgians Swiss and Scandinavian teame and the only way we could get to the top level is getting out of Scotland wee are in a league were teams hate is so much they are willing to loose money with half empty stadiums rather than let our fans in Scottish football is backwards and as long as we play here the BVB g and will happen once.or twice a year
Stevie come on youre so bipolar. One day celtic are amazing the next after a VERY EXPECTED LOSS they all are pathetic. Bloody relax, like it was naive to expect a win lol
We just aren't at that level hopefully we can adjust to the reality of .. we seemed really really out of our depth calmac was left floundering chasing himself.. press was so so .. yip go ahead celtic press and press but we can deal with that all day .Just outclassed and out though.. hope we can learn from this .
Thinking back to the first derby of Rodgers' second spell, I remember we had a lot of injuries heading into the game and we ended up playing pretty pragmatically. I'm sure Rodgers even said something at the time about needing to play differently due to the circumstances. We got a priceless 0-1 result that day thanks to a first half Kyogo goal and a MotM performance from Liam Scales. Why we were willing to accept the circumstances required a more sensible approach that day at Ibrox, but not Tuesday's visit to Dortmund is beyond me. I think we're actually more willing to adopt some degree of caution at Ibrox than we are at the Bernabeu!!! It's madness.
Best analysis in Scotland from all three gentlemen here HH
Agree with Stevie. I was in the West Stand with an amazing aerial view of both teams and even though i was totally pished I could see our weak press getting totally destroyed in the first 5 to 10 minutes. I also knew what was coming when I saw that. I knew what was coming so I was shuttling to the bar all night. It was hard looking over at the Celtic corner from the West stand as Id spoke to dozens of fans who made jounreys via mad countries like Denmark, Belgium, Austria and Czechia and then overnight buses to Dortmund, that broke my heart given how much cash people paid to make horrible journeys. For me I was expecting Engles and Callum to have been in a defensive double pivot to block, and destroy, with our back 4 sittng a bit deeper and possibly only a soft press in favour of keeping the shape. But that's not what I saw. Also goal difference really matters now. Still the Media and National Football Museum in Dortmund was nice, there's always that.
I was at the game in a Dortmund standing section. I felt so embarressed while the Dortmund fans, who saw their Team getting slaughtered by Stuttgart and not particulary playing well against Bruges and Bochum, were stunned how easy this was. Celtic is a proud club and Rodgers has to adapt. Losing happens but this is unacceptable.
Fully agree mate. There is losing against a superior side and then there is being embarrassed. As bad as it was to watch it at home on tv I felt for the fans like yourself who went over to witness that debacle. Against these elite sides, away from home especially, we have to change it up.
@@SeanO22Gallagher If you can't see that there is a chasm a light year wide between Celtic and Dortmund then you don't know football.
Celtic and their squad have been in decline since O Neill days, you aren't playing the same game as Dortmund and so results like this, whilst unpleasant are inevitable.
No one in the Celtic squad is of Champions League standard, they look ok in one of the worlds worst leagues in Scotland , but we all saw how slow and technically poor they were on Tuesday.
You might not like it, but you just have to accept you aren't capable of progressing at this level. Have 5 years in Europa, because the CL is several steps too high for a Scottish club.
@@sandersson2813 I live in Germany I know the Bundesliga. Checkout what Sparta Prague did in Stuttgart, check out Bochums squad. It’s not as easy as you make it
@@SeanO22Gallagher In not sure you are getting my point.
My point was that there is a chasm between Celtic and Dortmund, not that it's easy in Germany.
Celtic fans suffer delusions of grandeur, that it's still 1967, they don't realise how small and insignificant they are, and the can't see their decline has been ongoing for decades whilst other teams garner wealth and improved player and management talent.
In short, Celtic are just a nobody team and Dortmund fans probably had to Google them before realising how easy a game it would be.
Stevie makes a great point about Arsenal. They respect the opponent and have a manager that's willing to park his ego in order to get the results required. We're talking about a team that could realistically win the Champions League but even they will set up to be hard to beat away from home against Atalanta. If Rodgers doesn't do similar then for me he's either deluded or too married to a playing style that hangs the players out to dry. Ironically something Ange was slated for when he was here.
At least Ange was up front about how he wanted his teams to play and believed that 'parking the bus' was an offence to the fans who paid to watch them.
I was recovering in hospital, trying to convince the Surgeon on Tuesday morning that he should let me home to watch the game. No chance, and I grateful. Listened up to 3-1 and turned off and checked in. For the thousands that travelled, I feel for you. A total rethink is needed and that’s down to Rodgers. Things MUST change.
my match simulation was suggesting celtic had a 50% probability of drawing against dortmund, but the fatal flaw in my thinking was assumming smart people like rodgers and kennedy would come up with half decent tactics rather than the nonsense that was dished out. the loss 100% on the manager.
net xg margin for the game was around .6 in dortmunds favour . that usually means 70% probability of dortmund winning by 1 goal or a draw, so 7,1 was an outlier result, and all down to kennedys and rodgers pressing tactics.
pressing with just 5 , the 3 forwards and mids , if celtic dont get the turnover ,dortmund 1 pass away from outnumbering or overloading celtic in transition , and thats what happened . what worked against bratislava wont work against adeyemi and co.
to make matters worse , adeyemi generally has a floating role , but dortmund did there homework and set adeyemi up against taylor , it was frightening to watch . they also did there homework on kennedys press , and decided they could handle celtic with 5/6 defence and put 3/4 up against the shoulders of the celtic backs . again it was a nightmare to watch .
in an alternative universe this is what celtic could have done ,
either celtic go all 10 man on man press , and not give dortmund the out ball , but dortmunds indiviual billiance would win that arguement, or celtic have to do what the rest of the spfl do to it , run a soft press with phased retreat to a mid to low block .
in practice, you would have maeda and kyogo, harassing the dortmund backs when dortmund have the ball, but not too much, just enough to slow down the transition a few seconds, while they also retreat, and the rest of the mids retreat at mid speed to a blocking pattern , and you would set the block up as a 451. 4 at the back, and 5 in the front line , to make sure celtic have enough bodies in the middle of the block. to stop adeyemis left foot, and when celtic get a turnover , kyogo meada and kuhn hair off down the paddock for a long ball over the top .
falkirk used 451 against celtic to great affect until they ran out of legs, aberdeen also adopted similar tactics last season to good effect.
which brings me to another point , celtic didnt use the long ball option enough, because trying to transition on dortmund and turning over the ball can be fatal. celtic lost the ball 14 times , 11 in their own half. celtic had to force a scenario where dortmund continually had to build slower from the back , and celtic maintain their defensive shape
the great shame about all this is, a bit better game management iq by the manager and coach , could have made it a very tricky night for dortmund
i could go on, but that will do for today,
keep up the great work
Great comment, thanks for sharing
Keep hearing that Scottish teams can't compete at this level, but didn't the rangers beat Dortmund over 2 legs not too long ago (and RB Leipzig in the same competition)? Yes it's a huge challenge, but if you are more pragmatic, it is possible
We must treat this as a one-off and a ‘bad day at the office’. Keep the faith
I agree and disagree.
I agree in the short term for this current campaign. The game is gone and we've still six more games and we can still qualify for the next phase. So that is what we should concentrate on.
I disagree in terms of the bigger picture. Big picture, this wasn't a one off game because it keeps on happening when we go away to the Pot1 clubs. We need to find a way of making ourselves harder to beat in these games. At least give these teams something to think about as opposed to just playing right in to their hands every single time.
@@Mantis_Toboggan_MD. It can be a one off game for this completely entirely new bunch of players.
Or fans can keep hounding them and completely smash the rest of their morale to guarantee we lose every other game 🤷♂️
A one off that’s happened before. A multitude of one offs. Winning 5-1 was THE ONE OFF.
A one off? Like PSG X2, Athletico Madrid, Barcelona and now Dortmund? Yeah, really a one off.
Why can't you just be realistic and honest about where Celtic are in European football? You can see they aren't up to this level, just as no Scottish team will ever be.
Barcelona 7 Celtic 0
Celtic 0 PSG 5
PSG 7 Celtic 1
Athletico Madrid 6 Celtic 0
Dortmund 7 Celtic 1
Yeah, looks like a "one off to me"
Why can't you just accept that Celtic are NOT a team which can do well in this competition?
Agree with Stevie regarding Calmac knowing what was coming at 2-1. I wonder if he had any influence on changing the formation, are the players and back room staff are scared to question BRs tactics..
13:30
We must be the most educated club in Europe with the amount of "lessons" we've had in the last 10 years or so.
I'm still hurting & just embarrassed about it but at the end of the day it's 3 points out of 6 were still in a very good position the team & manager have 6 games to make it up for us. 🍀
The main adjustment needed is to know when to press high and not do it all the time.
Rodgers has to learn, or it will keep happening. Dare I say it, he needs a chat with Lennon IMO.
Said it before. Falkirk showed how vulnerable we are. We were Falkirk on Tuesday
Falkirk were more competitive than us
@@intheheatoflisbon5311 much more
Fair call
The worrying thing is I just don’t see this changing anytime soon
I generally like and enjoy what Brendan is doing domestically but unfortunately I don’t see him doing anything radically different
We're still ahead of 5 of our 8 opponents. Brugge, Zagreb, Leipzig, Bratislava & Young Boys are behind us. Still have every chance of qualifying
Am I remembering this wrongly or did we have a slightly more pragmatic approach last season whilst still playing attacking football when it was on, that’s the strategy I thought we would use in Dortmund
No, you are spot on and it’s why we were still able to match the teams (bar Atletico away).
They’re professional players in a professional team. They MUST be able to play in more than one formation. It should be a counter attacking 4-5-1 away in Europe. If you go in against a heavyweight in their own back yard with your guard down you will get battered. It’s happened far too often.
It’s all down to experience in playing with an adaptive style that nullifies your opponent of a decent quality, our bread and butter games don’t give us the opportunity to gain this experience that’s required at this level . A few more decent teams in our league that put proper pressure on us would only improve our own game and prepare us better for Europe. Sounds like an excuse but at this elite level it’s what we need.
I'm not worried about the Atalanta game because its a game we expected to lose and penciled in as a loss before the tournament, however its an opportunity to try a different tactical approach against a similar level opponent to Dortmund. We'll see if Brendan and/or the players have learned anything.
sadly atalanta will murder celtic, they are slick, create options easily and will have the celtic defence all over the place.
The problem is we don’t have any proper defensive midfielders and I was always saying that we need to buy a proper no6 for the CL! The midfield was terrible, but why didn’t Rodgers change it when it was obvious that it wasn’t working! Rodgers is arrogant regarding his ability!
Rodgers HAS to change
He wont .
Take the hit, learn from it, change tactics, if attacks are coming through the middle bring the wingers in, bring detached forwards closer to midfield, close down space, increase sitting midfield. Don't squander resources through a poorly executed high press. Arsenal did this when they played Atalanta! Most of all take the hit, learn from it and move on.
Stevie spot on.
Thanks for the input
Great Japan kit, I don't follow Celtic closely but BVB are not St Johnstone. The occasion got to the Scottish team. There is a gulf between the SPL and Bundesliga. That's why Germany are 4-time World Cup winners. BVB are Champions League finalists in 24. I cannot see this going much more than that. Wishing the Hoops well.
The problem was Celtic's tactics made the gap appear a lot bigger than it really is. Wishing BVB well.
Rangers fan, non bigoted, here. Gotta say, it was a bad night at the office for you guys but at least you always wanna play attacking football. We got our tactics right against Dortmund a couple of seasons ago and the smaller teams in Germany do the same. Sit back, soak up pressure, catch them on the break down the flanks and over the top. I'm sure you will bounce back which can only be good for Scottish football if we both perform well in Europe.
Exactly its not rocket science. We have a front three that are quick and perfect for a counter attack strategy away from home. The fact Rodgers continues with a front 5 high press leaving mcgregor isolated as the sitter is embarassing stuff at this level. If he does the same in Atalanta it could be another scudding.
good point but rangers seem to adapt easier to the bigger opponent, than celtic do, rangers put more emphasis on tactics and defence, celtic just go all out kamikaze style, its madness, the most dissapointing thing about celtic in europe is we are underachieving and have been for yonks simply cos we dont adapt enough to the demands of the bigger game in europe,
We need a physicality in midfield against these teams. A breaker. Someone that can hold the ball. I said about Idah up front as he's the physicality and playing him too to hold the ball up and get us out. There midfield swarmed all over us.
Idah upfront would have made no difference. The way to play away from home against better teams, is to sit in be compact and quick counter attacks. With kyogo, khun and meada we have the speed for that. Engles and bernardo should have been closer to mcgregor instead of pressing high with the front three. The fact Rodgers couldnt change and adapt during the game is alarming and the atalanta game will be inetersting as it could be another scudding if he cant get away from this high press nonsense against better teams.
Dortmund physically bullied and abused the Celtic team, many of whom completely shit themselves!
McGregor had a nightmare and could provide nothing in support of any attempt to get up the park.
The two T’ its at the back lost the plot, with Taylor hiding and chucking it.
We need more physicality on the park. I think the Norwegian midfield Bhoy is worth another chance, he kicks people back!
Now the dust has settled we must realise it was the perfect storm . We were shell shocked within 10 mins and never recovered , they were top of their game . We are much better than we showed but the bottle was smashed early and once the nerve goes you are done .. what we all have to realise that they have said thet were top of their game and we had a total collapse that’s what happens in cl when that happens . Leipzig pumped 7-0 by man city last year . Barca were whacked In Spain 8-2 in the quarters by munch a few years back . They also battered spurs 7-2 in London . There can be nights like that against the top boys
Aston villa played 4 5 1 sat back and broke on the break and won hope we don't need a result there.
Faster, better, taller, stronger.
Rogers ego is the problem he thinks he's an elite coach and can get the better of superior teams that's the problem...
players that can adapt from one style to another to produce an effort that can result in a good performance cost a lot of money and
celtic need more than one.
Mcgregor is like a wee boy at that level let's be honest.
We don’t play that more defensive shape because in the Scottish league we never have to. They simply
Don’t know how to do it. They’ve no practice.
Said this to John and Hamish about 10 times on Tuesday night btw
You dont see similar teams of our standing get doings like that time and time again,on Rodgers im afraid,will he ever change,need to change,simple as that,if not,more doings on the way
we were on great form going into this, but just kept giving away the ball too easy leading to every goal,
BR talks about keeping our identity and a better team dismantle us, he has explained why publicly.
This is what being a UCL finalist 5 months ago with 15 players valued 15-40m euros a piece 5 of which are 40m. Ange talked about plan B being do plan A better.. the exact same thing.
We play 60 games a season, we play euro football like 8 games a season IF we make the league stage. You want to go from the Jock Stein quote "We did it by playing football. Pure, beautiful, inventive football." to what Messi termed Sevco's play: anti-football?
We could have went flat back 10 and still got beaten, they had the talent to unlock a 10-0-0 btw.
We judge this by Bratislava, Young Boys, Zagreb and Brugge NOT Dortmund, Leipzig, Atalanta, VIlla.
"It comes down to the manager"? 38 games, about £4m prize money. Get angry, you should. Cancel your Sky sub and tell them why.
Best supported European league per capita poorly subsidized by TV deals even compared to other relatively sized nations.
You can't make a quarter finalist out of 90+m running costs a year versus teams with 400m+ euro squads. And spare me the ridiculous "money doesn't matter" pish. When and where has that EVER been true? A Roy of the Rovers wee guy upset? Aye, but you can't bank on that.
We win the Prem title, the League Cup, the Scottish Cup and qualify for Europe and get a chance to get better and hopefully qualify and do better with more experience and hopefully an upgraded XI.
It's not like we have a choice. FIFA have ruled out sugar daddys and who would sugar daddy us enough to put us on level footing with Man City? I don't like it, but unfortunately we have to live in the real world. I will be more upset if we get a kicking from Young Boys, Zagreb and Brugge.
The fatalism from some fans, man. Make their Sevco pals proud so it would. We have enough people talking us down from outside. It kills our stock, it makes us unattractive for recruitment and retention. Circle the wagons and put it in perspective KTF HH
Brendan has to park his ego, this narrative of managers that never change their style no matter the circumstances being peddled as a virtue has to go man. It’s fuckin dogma. Brendan is great but he has to adapt in Europe. Sparta Prague get a great draw in Stuttgart and I bet they played deep and hit on the counter so it can be done.
brendan wont change, he will try the same thing over and over again and it will fail over and over again, but he wont get why, he is clueless.
It wouldn’t have taken a massive tactical change to compete and give ourselves a fighting chance. As the guys say, start the match cagey and cautious, don’t let midfielders leave their posts and don’t t let wingers press so high often (especially 2-1 and 3-1 down) exposing out defence.
We played like we were playing Hibs at home….!
Table doesnt look too bad for us after the games yesterday, spare a thought for Slovan Bratislava and Young Boys 😂❤
Our weaknesses were clearly there to see against Dortmund, other teams in this CL group will see this and will be rubbing their hands seeing us as very weak. Brendan Rodgers needs to take most of the blame and needs to make huge changes against Atalanta
Poor league? Ajax in the early 1970s were 3 time European champions coming from a poor league with little competition. In 2024, Sparta Prague also manage to get results coming from a "poor" league.
Feyenoord won it in 1970.
The biggest disappointment of the night was Rodgers , all the good work obliterated in 90mins,leading up to the game most of us were convinced Brendan had this sorted and playing a pot 1 team he had a plan , unfortunately playing in the SPL we are going to struggle and are looking like a Europa conference league team .
A list of people wanting Rodger’s style of play against top teams in Europe
Brendan Rodgers
A list of people not wanting to see BR’s style of play.
The starting 11
The subs
The back room staff that have to pick them up after
The board and marketing department since there won’t be any Celtic 2 Barcelona 1 videos to sell
Most importantly, the fans.
BR is putting his ego before everyone else.
Just be compact and play on the counter attack.
Perspective...
Dortmund themselves were pumped 5-1 not long ago!.
We're poor in quality & finances because of the Scottish League but we react in horror when we're pumped because in our own league, we never lose.
Lose, we must... Or we will never improve
Dortmund took the game very seriously and the outcome was a consequence. Lucky that it was only seven, our players could not pass the ball. It was just series of unforced errors. We will not be the first or the last team who climbs the hill to play at Bergamo and leaves with nothing. We will not stop Seško at Celtic park or get anything at Villa, either. Our fate in this tournament hinges on the games against Brugge, Zagreb and Young Boys.
Perhaps the success he had in pre-season against City and Chelsea led him to believe that he could repeat it in real football. 🙄
We don't have the quality of player to go toe to toe with these players and try to impose OUR game on these type of teams?? Our manager and coaches have enough footage of these teams so why can't they organise a gameplan to combat them???
Rodgers is playing football the right way but you have to differentiate between teams of lesser or teams of higher ability and adjust the style. Rodgers is way to stubborn for his own good
"Its still achievable to get enough points"?
What's that prediction based on? Emotion?
Are you not again underestimating the championship league opposition?
Our manager said he wont change!
An embarrassment to the fans, the club and Scottish football. An apology should be issued and a massive reassessment of how we setup on European nights. Those results are damaging psychologically for players and can create a long-lasting inferiority complex. I fully expect the players to now be spooked in this Euro campaign regardless of opposition
Watched the Villa game think they had 35% of the game and still won why chase the opposition keeper with teams of this quality
The manager has got to take the blame, that's the 3rd time we've lost 7 goals in Europe under his watch, he's totally incapable of change, he's an Embarrassment
Got up @ 3:30 am in Japan to watch the game. Stopped watching the game as the first-half whistle went @ 4:45 am; 1-5....!! Couldn't take any more... Rodgers 2nd 1-7 defeat.. Why hasn't he learned *anything* from all those humbling defeats under his management & tactics? Utterly shameful performance. Painfully embarrassing. Unfathomably passive. Where’s the fight, the drive, the fire?
ATALANTA will run up a cricket-score if we play anywhere like we did on Tuesday. We need to set-up 5-4-1 -or- 4-5-1, and each player must be given a player to man-mark 100% the whole game. If we don't change our tactics, then Rodgers really has to be given a severe bollocking from the Board &, *much more importantly, The Celtic Supporters*; Quite simply, he cannot be allowed to set-up the team like he did on Tuesday, *EVER AGAIN*...
away games and celtic dont match in europe..always expect a doing
Give it Another Decade or so bhoys ! It'll wear off eventually
Rodgers out now if we ever gona go anywhere in europe he has had multiple chances and made us the laughing stock of europe embarrassing
Mental how deluded we were thinking we’d beat Dortmund, reality is we lost O’Riley and Joe Heart and replaced them with Engels (a project) and Schmeichel. We’re worse off than previous years.
Hart was no better . We were well beaten in Europe with Joe Hart in goals also with some doings in there under Brendan . .
John and Tony Haggerty are Ryan118’s distant cousin
Brendan has handed Celtic worst results in Europe from all managers that we have had .
A fair number of them losses have been very heavy defeats around 4/5 heavy defeats iN Europe
and seems to me he has no plan B when in Europe away from home , in particualrly we need to get in
better defender/s stronger and more able , and sit back tighter with going on breaks .
We lack stronger better defenders at the back , and more quality in need .
Brendan Rodgers is not the answer , he has been here before in Europe first time , and then last season
and now this season so no he is not the answer . Not good enough this Brendan guy .
And he did say one hour before the match in Dortmund his very words were " We are ready "
did not seem like it to me , with such a heavy loss in which was embarrassing to Celtic and Scottish football
Colim a good player but would not get in any English premiership team .
So long as Celtic are involved in Scottish football playing against largely Micky mouse teams means that they can never ever be prepared for playing against the elite teams of Europe.
Compare Celtics performance against Aston Villa a team that hasn't played top flight football for 41 yrs
Does Steve really like celtic.
Why what didnt you agree with?
I do yes, I only hate myself!👍
Will rodgers change does he have change and what will look like ??question is does he know what change looks like can he change cause he has never done it and i dont think with him he has 2nd plan or plan B. .. with all fancy words and sopppsed modern managment skills he sopposedly has he fails massively when comes to change in europe ?
Dont know why we surprisedrodgers has never done anything europe with any team ..
Im still in camp of judas with him and have never shifted from my view .get 1 chance like you do with a WIFE once cheated then its DONE with me ..
Id have prefered at time knutsen at bodo glimt when we played them he showed his style was like ange so wouldnt been much change but and this but in his favour .. he can change in europe thats why bodo glimt have had successin europe so speak against bigger clubs compared to them in europe ..
🍀🍀🏴🇵🇸🏴🇵🇸
rogers is out of his depth in european football when a big team comes along, he simply dosent have a clue about tactics, defensive capability, and the need to make things difficult for the opponent, its not rocket science but most teams adapt to the quality of opps they face, if your facing a team of dortmunds standard you need to defend deep in numbers and try hit them on the break, if your going to give the ball away make sure the opponent cant break quickly on you, i watched the villa game last night and the atalanta game and sadly i fear the worst, rogers wont change, he is too stupid, villa will out muscle us, atalanta will outthink us, brendan youve learned nothing from the past european humpings which you oversaw, stop making the same lame and tired excuses, and change things, if you put the same ingredients into every stew you make it will always taste the same, try a new ingredient brendan, sadly iwas correct about brendan never ever stepping up in europe with celtic, the odd good result against average opposition will happen from time to time but were in for more hammerings as long as brendan is in charge, and also i think a large proportion of celtic fans live in the past, footballs changed cant you see, what worked in the 60,s and 70,s dosent work today,
We.are.not in the top level of teams in Europe your best Germans Italians English Spanish and a cpl of French teams our level is the second tier like the Dutch Austrians Belgians Swiss and Scandinavian teame and the only way we could get to the top level is getting out of Scotland wee are in a league were teams hate is so much they are willing to loose money with half empty stadiums rather than let our fans in Scottish football is backwards and as long as we play here the BVB g and will happen once.or twice a year
Stevie come on youre so bipolar. One day celtic are amazing the next after a VERY EXPECTED LOSS they all are pathetic. Bloody relax, like it was naive to expect a win lol
I never expected a win - just expected us to compete and put on a professional performance.
We just aren't at that level hopefully we can adjust to the reality of .. we seemed really really out of our depth calmac was left floundering chasing himself.. press was so so .. yip go ahead celtic press and press but we can deal with that all day .Just outclassed and out though.. hope we can learn from this .