Harlan Ellison was a brilliant writer with some amazing ideas ... unfortunately he knew this, didn't like anyone changing anything, held grudges for longer that was tenable .... his fans recognise his genius, and acknowledge his flaws .... his genius is why many remember him, his flaws are why so few do ...
He was interviewed on "Prisoners of Gravity," where he dropped such verbal gems as "Star Trek...is for BRAIN-DAMAGE CASES! people who can't get laid eat Twinkies and watch Star Trek," and ""I wake up angry every morning and go to bed EVEN ANGRIER every night."
Ellison's perspective on the world was more gritty and realistic , Roddenberry's vision was more idealistic and thus more acceptable to network executives. It would be cool if someone filmed a remake faithful to Ellison's script. I'd watch it !!
If we are talking about contacts between Q and the Guardian, we must include the live show "Spock vs. Q", a wonderful 2-man back-and-forth performance by, of course, Leonard Nimoy and John de Lancie. At one point, Spock makes reference to the Guardian, and Q replies: "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt."
The novel _'Imzadi'_ (my copy is actually signed by *Marina Sirtis,* btw) has a really, genuinely interesting inclusion & usage of *The Guardian of Forever!* I highly recommend the book to any *Trekkie/Trekker/Star Trek fan* 📚👍🏻
When Carl introduces himself in 'Terra Firma', he refers to himself as a portal, which is also the word the holographic representative from the Tkon Empire used when Riker met him in 'The Last Outpost', so I'm convinced that there is a connection between them, and the Tkon Empire may actually have built the Guardian originally. I would love to see that explored further.
Absolutely ❤❤❤ this episode! I am a suckered for timectravel stories, and I fell off my chair when Carl, in its original voice, announced " I am the Guardian of Forever "! I also fell out of my seat when you, Sean, suggested the Kelvin Universe could usevit to criss over into the Prime!
When Carl/Guardian of Forever showed up in Discovery my jaw was on the floor. I literally couldn't believe they brought back the GoF, let alone made it into some sort of being or intelligence that can manifest as a person/whatever. And brought in to help Georgiou and send her back to the (we assume) original time Discovery started around. When Carl just stopped and went "I am the guardian of forever" I think my heart skipped a couple beats.
@@lotstodo Um I think it was the 3rd or 2nd to last episode of S3. The episode is terrific also (well it's a two parter, once again in the mirror universe, since it's a test for Georgiou after all).
I really love and appreciate Sean's outro's I know that the concensus when creating content is short and sweet but hearing all the kindness he tries to put forth it just makes me smile and makes my heart happy ❤
Great article. Thank you Sean. Don’t be put off by the episode All Our Yesterdays being from the original third series. This episode and the third season actually very good.
I just love the idea of the mirror universe having a portal there only because I think it would look just like the portal we all know and love but just with a goatee. 🤪
Years ago, I saw Star Trek: The Exhibition, which was the old Stsr Trek: the Exhibition in Vegas. One of the props featured is the initial Guardian. It also featured several of the Enterprise-D models. Just fascinating.
Yasssss!!! Yesterday's Son and Time for Yesterday two of Star Treks greatest novels (at least in my opinion) a must read for any Trek fan. Trust you'll enjoy these two. I actually have signed paperbacks thank you A.C. Crispin. 8:22
I am so glad that you referenced the Mirror Universe together with the Kelvin Universe as I have often thought the numbers of parallel universes in ST to not just be binary but multiple, I have also wondered if there is not just ONE Prime universe but several e.g. Prime-The-Cage, Prime-Shartner-Kirk, Prime-SNW (which of course would account for the variations of The Cage versus SNW). Finally The Guardian could not be played by anyone but Paul Guilfoyle he was perfect
It's kinda funny concerning Yesterday's Enterprise original story. They pulled that sort of thing off on Babylon 5 with Jeffrey Sinclair going back in time and becoming Valen, the Minbari leader.
So many story ideas are taken from one show or another trick is to do it so you don’t get a lawsuit. JMS was going to sue Paramount for stealing his ideas when he pitched them B5. They settled out of court. The transporters came from forbidden Planet.
You are a good man! I bought that novel when it was published many many years ago! Mr. David used to write such great Trek novels! I wonder what happened to him.
@@mrScififan2 agreed I thought he wrote TNG so well I was surprised none of his writings were ever utilized as a TNG movie script IMZADI or Q SQUARED woulda been better than nemesis
12:10. Not quite correct. The film is "The Spanish Main", not man, and it's from 1945 not 1939. It is an RKO film and you used the right clip image. To make things more interesting... That clip of a sailing ship firing that was used in "City on the Edge of Forever" was also used in the opening credits of Enterprise's 2 season four mirror universe episodes. In Enterprise they had cleaned up the shot and added a sepia tone to the original color sequence; it was b&w in TOS. Going solely off of screenshots from that film of the ship models used, I can say it really looks like the ship is The Baracuda from that film in both TOS and Enterprise.
Things I'm surprised you didn't touch on: - the "ruins" surrounding the portal were supposed to be "runes" but the set designer mis-heard - the Federation spent years studying the Guardian, with the science team including an Aurelian - It seems pretty clear that we were meant to think that McCoy was going to *kill* Keeler (why else have him steal the phaser?) and that the milk-thief vaporizing himself (and the gun) was meant to tie into the revelation that Edith needed to die. The fact that it really doesn't read that way when you're watching "City" seems like a directorial fail.
I once read a piece of fanfic that posited the homeless guy getting vaporized somehow tied into Star Trek (the show) not existing within the Trek universe.
I think that you've made excellent points and certainly have given me a new way to think about TOS's "City...", as opposed to Harlan Ellison's original scripts (plural---he wrote multiple drafts, to notes given by Roddenberry, for which professionalism he was never given credit.) I believe that "the milk man" was Dorothy Fontana's attempt to incorporate something of HE's original character, "Trooper," the legless, homeless WWI veteran, who saves Kirk's life in Harlan Ellison's script, thereby begging the question: why did his life not matter?
If you think Harlan Ellison was pissed off at what happened with this script, you should have seen his reaction with the botched Canadian production of The Starlost! You can read about it in the introduction to his book "Phoenix Without Ashes", the novelization of his original script for the pilot episode.
I still have a large collection of those old classic novels, which I would buy every month (or so?) when they would come out back in the 80s. Yesterday's Son was one of my favourites!
That's the old "Forty Acres" backlot. The Midwestern Town was originally built for "Gone with the Wind," and was redressed and re-used over and over again, most notably as Mayberry in "The Andy Griffith Show." You can even see the facade of the Atlanta Examiner in one shot in "City..." Star Trek also shot exteriors for "Miri," and "Return of the Archons" in the same outdoor set. The Mayberry streets were also used in episodes of "The Adventures of Superman," "Batman," "The Untouchables," and "Mission: Impossible." And at the other end of the lot is The Arab Village, where exteriors for "The Cage" and "Errand of Mercy" were shot. By the way, if you're thinking of making a pilgrimage to visit the location, you can't. It fell out of use and into disrepair, and was ultimately demolished to make way for a business park.
4:30 The Guardian actually explicitly states in TOS that he can connect to parallel universes. I only know this because when this video showed up in my feed I first went and watched "City on the Edge of Forever." Which... wow.
Also, the situation with Sarek replacing Surak reminds me of a novella by Michael Morecock entitled "Behold the Man" where an lapsed Anglican goes back in time to meet Jesus of Nazareth and finds him an gibbering idiot. He replaces him and ends up being crucified in his stead.
There were a couple other TV shows that did this. In one, an Elvis impersonator goes back in time, meets Elvis, and takes his place in History when Elvis is killed. In the other, a Historian switches places with JFK, and is killed in Dallas, while JFK takes HIS place teaching History.
I'm sitting here waiting for you to bring up the Devil's heart. Gues you don't have time for all of them, but it basically explains how the guardian reproduces. There's this stone known as the devil's heart, the koenyah, and the Barajtak, depending on the planet you're on. Yes I butchered the spelling of all those names, I listened to it on audio. But Picard has to help the guardian send the stone through a wormhole so it can be planted as a seed to grow a new guardian somewhere in the universe.
The Guardian played a key role in DC's Star Trek (vol. 2) #53-57, where Kirk and crew have to use the Guardian to travel to a pivotal point in Klingon history, because the Romulans tried time travel shenanigans and wound up making the Klingon's peaceful AND erasing the Romulan Empire (and the Romulans) from History.
The Guardian of Forever must by default have access to parallel universes, because: As we see in "City of the Edge of Forever" the Guardian exists in both the prime timeline _and_ the timeline in which McCoy has changed history so that Starfleet no longer exists. In fact, the timeline seamlessly and instantaneously changes around The Guardian and it protects the crew from those changes while they are in its vicinity (much like the "temporal wake" in First Contact) and it doesn't even skip a beat. Could The Guardian just have switched over to an alternate-dimension version of itself in the new timeline? I don't think so. Both it and the crew retain their knowledge of continuity from before the change. I'm more inclined to think that there is only one version of The Guardian in total regardless of the number of alternate universes. That The Guardian exists separate from and is unaffected by any of the timelines; like a spider monitoring the far-flung vibrations of its web by just sitting the center observing the vibrations of the strands. And like that spider, it can travel down any of the strands it likes and return to the center whenever it likes to take another path.
If you think about it one way, if parallel universes begin when someone makes a decision, meaning all possibilities exist, then the Guardian of Forever would exist in all universes created after it was, meaning it could theoretically have access to all of them. Since it has access to the Mirror Universe that means it was created before whatever event caused the Mirror Universe and ours to split apart, which was implied to be even farther back than us by the opening credits of the Enterprise episodes that take place there.
This was your best video yet! I'm a very big fan of the TOS season one, episode 28, "City On The Edge of Forever," and equally so of Discovery's season three, episode ten, "Terra Firma." When he introduced himself as Carl, I was on the floor. It was brilliantly done all up to the very end. I love many stories by Harlan Ellison and did not know that the original story was available in any format. I have already began looking for it and what commenter "@stuartwald2395" mentioned, "Spock v. Q," a must find as well. Keep up the most excellent post my friend and "Post On!"
Very much enjoyed this video! I practically squeed over that episode of Discovery. 😁👌🏼 Yeah, Harlan Ellison was, indeed, an amazing author, but... just, srsly, he's a good advertisement for the old saying: "Never meet your heroes" He was not a nice guy. Doesn't change the fact that he wrote brilliant stories, though. Like a number of old, classic sci-fi authors, TBH. Of course there were awesome ones, too. I met a goodly amount of them, too, back in the day. I miss the old Sci-Fi Conventions. *_nostalgic smiling sigh_*
Terra Ferma was one of the BEST ST:Disco episodes yet!! I loved that Phillippa was given the chance to redeem herself and that she did it! Michelle Yeoh is 61 years old and STILL smokin hot!!
I think that might have been a better option instead of having yet another impossibly massive and undefeatable Romulan death ship in a film which could have probably single-handedly won the Dominion War but was never mentioned.
The thing with Giorgiou being sent to the Mirror Universe through it may just be because that is her past, whereas for others their past is in the prime universe so it doesn't necessarily mean anyone can use the GOF to jump to the Mirror Universe.
And I though the rule is you cam travel in time or dimensions, but not both. So if our Ensign Kim from Voyager, who is from another universe, ever tries to travel in time in the Prime universe... Same thing with Naomi Wilde...
That’s a good point, but I don’t think it’s valid because he sent her to the prime universe too. That would mean he had to choose when AND where to send her. And he also said “sending you somewhere else could cause trouble” which COULD be implying that he could even send her to somewhere besides the prime universe OR the mirror universe
@@theredheadproject yeah she said “I won’t go back to terra” and he said “I’m not sending you there I’m going to send you to a place when the mirror universe and the prime universe were closer together.” But when he was explains why he tested her he says something alone the lines of “sending you somewhere else could cause trouble, so you had to be tested”
If a Guardian of Forever did exist in the Mirror Universe, I think it's likely that one of the various oppressive regimes (Terran Empire, Klingon-Cardassian Alliance) would have wanted it destroyed to prevent challenges to their authority through the use of time-travel or universe-crossing.
If you look at some of the other things, it does exist...the Guardian in some of the Beta stories that reference other realities is a multiversal entity that exists in all of them where it was/is/will be present.
Actually I believe this was mentioned in the book what happen to the GoF in the Mirror universe. It was destroyed and I think it was the Terran's. Again I think it was in Mirror Mirror and Picard or his counterpart "ol Shiny" who did it. But I could be wrong....
10:38 Of all the reviews I've watched for SNW’s season 2 premiere, NO ONE has mentioned that Commander Pelia being bored could be a reference to this scene, especially since Quinn commented that it was because of boredom that (DeLancy’s) Q caused so much mischief.
I've come to think that Q and the rest of his species, the Worm whole Aliens AKA the Prophets, the Guardian of Forever and other similar 'god like beings' are completely outside time and therefore exist everywhere at once. So, to answer the question about whether there is a Guardian in the mirror universe or any other one, I'd say no. My thoughts going something like this. All the universes are distinguished by differences in events and their consequences and so if a being is outside the normal impact of time, that is normal for those species subject to the passage of time they won't exist in any other parallel universe and are capable of travelling between these different places with no ill effect to them, or the universes. Its not a novel idea I know, but it just feels right to me. Glad I've got that off my chest. Great videos as ever.
Got some things wrong about the Harlan Ellison part. One of the major problems with his script was that it would have required the budget of a major movie to produce. He was asked to fix this. He wouldn't cooperate. So they had to change the script so that they could produce it on a budget they could afford. Also, his play was published in an anthology way (Six SF Plays) back in the mid 1970s; I bought a copy of it myself. Imo the televised version was better. The one you refer to was simply a slickered up version that was the first to be published by itself.
That was GRs later claim but it is baseless. The Guardians were no more expensive than Land of the Giants trick photography...that had been already used in TZ or Lost in Space. The crowd scene in a pro socialist labor riot was a bit expensive, but no more than the overpopulation episode of later TOS in extras. Also easy to cut. The period street, costumes and cars was Mayberry Courthouse Square a standard Desilu backlot...and the cars and costumes were from The Untouchables (Desilu)...this would be used again for Piece of the Action...and Mayberry used in Miri was much more expensive as they had to redress the backlot severely. The City on the Edge soundstage set was supposed to be exactly what Ellison wrote in draft 3, but a set crew messed up in reading the stage directions. A Runed City was interpreted as A City in Ruins. They built it and couldn't afford to fix it, so they added a howling wind and made it a ghost city. Draft 2 had the Mirror Mirror naughty Enterprise because GRs team requested them include The Ship...but then they asked him to cut it on draft 3, which he did. Draft 3 makes Bones the random element also...caused by a lab experiment with an alien animal. So no, the 1st draft would not have been too expensive...however it had some elements already done in other S1 episodes that Ellison had no knowledge of: Court Marshal Space drugs Onboard murder And Spock was to command a firing squad to execute the criminal. GRs team didn't like that and it didn't fit the character reworked after WNMHGB which is the only episode Ellison was shown before writing his story.
@S Tho Thank 😊 you. Harlan Ellison's professionalism is *always* called into question about The City on the Edge of Forever, when in fact HE worked his butt off, draft after draft after draft, to conform to notes he was given by GR. Subsequently, after his good friend Dorothy Fontana rewrote "City" without telling him, and GR began spreading lies like, "Harlan Ellison's original script had Scotty dealing drugs" (the 'jewels of sound' were worse than Harry Mudd's 'Venus Drug' 🤔 how?), Ellison became bitter. It was he who organized the entire writing campaign to "save Star Trek" so the betrayal was a chasm an inch wide and a million miles deep. No one can convince me that "City on the Edge of Forever" would have been as good without the fundamentals of Harlan Ellison's original scripts.
I think it was one of your best lists and it’s also my favorite reason for discovery. I love the Guardian, and if they never used them again, I would’ve sent me on TV now the next generation a DS nine nova not even enterprise they need to use it again so many possibilities. I know there’s problems with it but so many things you could do with it always possibilities Spock says that’s one of the reasons I loved the Star Trek the animated series the guardian again and there are a lot of good fan films on the Internet on UA-cam that use the guardian to there’s a great show called Star Trek continues and Star Trek a new voyages that is the guardian they used a lot of old TV actors that were in the original show and ones you would have loved to see in Star Trek like Gil Gérard Lauren Gray, and my favorite Tasha yours, grandmother find a cure for regular blood worms, and they mention how enterprise captain which sets up the concept of the Klingon, hi counseling, would using Trường it’s based on Star Trek phase to Scripps what’s the first mention the ships consul on the enterprise the hallow deck by Scotty himself?
i LOVE the Guardian of Forever, and this was such a good list that i didn't even downvote it just because the host was the jerk who crapped all over Peanuthamper.
I always thought that the race of beings from TNG's "the Chase" that seeded the primordial soup in many worlds would have been the ones to have built the Guardian of Forever.
Babylon 5 also had a [SPOILERS] present-replaces-past character with Sinclair/Valen, but they'd lined it up for a rather long time for it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy which has =always= happened.
Always like to see things like the above to help fill in the blanks! It may be a wife's tale that short people are more 'touchy' than those who are not, but Ellison kind of fits the bill. Him and Asimov were kind of alike and had some kind of a love, hate relationship. I'd like to read Ellison's version; is it still available?
4:27 I would surmise that the Guardian is much like a Q. In that there isn't another "copy" of the Guardian in the mirror universe, the one that would be there IS the one that would be here. The Guardian appears to be very neutral, so neutral that it could exist in both the Dark Universe and the prime universe and appear exactly the same. That being said, the only "on screen" use of its ability to cross universes is laid out with Philippa Georgiou, who came from the other universe. Which could show that while it CAN allow passage to another universe, it most likely won't allow it out side of special circumstances. It can also relocate itself anywhere it chooses. During the Temporal Cold Wars, many factions tried to use the Guardian as a means of quick and dirty time travel, rather than allow that it simply packed up and moved to another location without leaving a forwarding address. Which means that even if the Dark Universe knew of the Guardian's existence, they might not know where it is. Moving a little bit outside of the box and getting into some of the books(your beta canon from 10:00 ), in the Q Continuum trilogy of books(which so far haven't been contradicted by any on screen canon) Q attempted to bring a being from another universe across to the prime universe. Recognizing the threat this being presented, the Guardian actually resisted Q's attempts. The Guardian failed and Q was able to bring the other being across. But it shows that the Guardian has the power to actually resist a Q for a time(which is where the line from Q comes from about ancestors knowing how to make things, this ancient device still had the power to put up a decent fight). Meaning that if a simple mortal being were to try to make the attempt and the Guardian says no, there's nothing that mortal could do about it. So the universe hopping would be purely at the discretion of the Guardian. And given it's purely neutral status, it's unlikely that it would just allow that without ample justification.
I don't remember the name of the book but there was a great book that took place between Kirks retirement and his loss in Generations that features the Guardian very heavily.
The script was changed when Denise Crosby returned to Star Trek; And it is all the more better for it. The previous script was very stereotypical of the average meh which was the Next Gen standard episodes between the major plot events. It also freed up Sarek to have a role later on in the series; Yes he dies, but it is a significant event to the Vulcan/Romulan reunification plot.
There are two fan fiction Star Trek episodes where we see more of the guardian being used to correct the past. In one, Commodore Decker entered the Doomsday machine and is thrown into early 21 century Earth, while the Doomsday Machine gets thrown back in time and encounters the Enterprise under the command of Captain Pike. The Enterprise is destroyed along with Vulcan in the Doomsday war. KirK, In command of the Farragut gets called to the Guardian planet where they have found a larger guardian and they send the Farragut through to stop the Guardian from destroying the Enterprise. In another fan fiction, Uhura is married to a Vulcan and living there when Charlie X reappears and enters the Guardian to go kill Captain Kirk. After he kills Captain Kirk, a super powered Garry Micheal shows up and destroys the prime timeline. Uhura teams up with Checkov and admiral John Harriman and they find an older and sadder Charlie X who regrets killing Kirk. Charlie X fights Gary Mitchell but can not beat so he has to return to the Guardian to stop himself from killing Kirk. If I remember it correctly, both the past Charlie and future Charlie are killed! Gotta say that I love the fan fiction New Voyages staring James Cawley and Star Trek continues staring Vic Mignogna. The fan film Axanar looked fantastic before it was killed.
I really don't like Discovery overall, but that moment...when after a fairly pedestrian and predictable episode, we get that line "I AM THE GUARDIAN OF FOREVER" - that's one of the best Star Trek reveals I've ever seen.
Can someone explain what is written on his pullover. I pretty sure that it is some kind of Scandinavian language. My only guess is that it means bread. My native language is German in which it's Brot and I know that some words are quite similar in "both" languages. Please explain
There used to be a website (It's now shut down) that had an annotated aerial photograph showing all the locations in the Mayberry exterior set where Star Trek shot scenes, not just for "City on the Edge of Forever," but also "Miri" and "Return of the Archons."
How can you not mention the animated series episode? It had spock replaced by an Andorian, Spocks pet and explains that Kirk and Spock changed the past without knowing it. Big miss.
"Yesteryear" by Dorothy Fontana, featuring i'Chaya, Spock's 12 foot fanged teddy bear first referenced by Amanda in "Journey to Babel." That one is a brilliant use of The Guardian, explores Spock's past, Vulcan, and his relationship with Sarek as a 7 year old. Great catch! 👍
I came here looking for someone to bring it up. As mentioned by another poster, it was written by DC Fontana, one of Trek’s most important screenwriters. She also referenced it in her novel, “Vulcan’s Glory”.
Harlan Ellison was a brilliant writer with some amazing ideas ... unfortunately he knew this, didn't like anyone changing anything, held grudges for longer that was tenable .... his fans recognise his genius, and acknowledge his flaws .... his genius is why many remember him, his flaws are why so few do ...
@christopherjannette5863 Him trying to sue anyone that he could makes me hate him. I hate bullies.
He was interviewed on "Prisoners of Gravity," where he dropped such verbal gems as "Star Trek...is for BRAIN-DAMAGE CASES! people who can't get laid eat Twinkies and watch Star Trek," and
""I wake up angry every morning and go to bed EVEN ANGRIER every night."
I think he was good friends with JMS of B5 fame.
The reason was, Ellison turned in a $300K+ episode if produced as written!
It HAD to be cut!
Ellison's perspective on the world was more gritty and realistic , Roddenberry's vision was more idealistic and thus more acceptable to network executives. It would be cool if someone filmed a remake faithful to Ellison's script. I'd watch it !!
Disco's reveal of the Guardian was absolutely incredible. I geeked out so hard.
He was lovable to boot.
me too!! i think they used archival sound for it as well...
If we are talking about contacts between Q and the Guardian, we must include the live show "Spock vs. Q", a wonderful 2-man back-and-forth performance by, of course, Leonard Nimoy and John de Lancie. At one point, Spock makes reference to the Guardian, and Q replies: "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt."
Yesterday's Son and Time for Yesterday were absolutely outstanding.
Greatest ST story ever told
They really were. Yesterday’s son should have been made into a movie.
The novel _'Imzadi'_ (my copy is actually signed by *Marina Sirtis,* btw) has a really, genuinely interesting inclusion & usage of *The Guardian of Forever!* I highly recommend the book to any *Trekkie/Trekker/Star Trek fan* 📚👍🏻
I read that novel also and agree with you.
My favorite guardian story
Heck I read that book nearly 30 years ago and unfortunately I don't remember the Guardian being in it!
@@TALessman high time for a re-read, then, methinks!
@@NostalgiaBrit Agree. I don't remember that either, but I do remember I loved it.
When Carl introduces himself in 'Terra Firma', he refers to himself as a portal, which is also the word the holographic representative from the Tkon Empire used when Riker met him in 'The Last Outpost', so I'm convinced that there is a connection between them, and the Tkon Empire may actually have built the Guardian originally. I would love to see that explored further.
Possibly the same builders.
Ooooo! I like this!
yikes.. I'd like to know by which writers this would be done?
Absolutely ❤❤❤ this episode! I am a suckered for timectravel stories, and I fell off my chair when Carl, in its original voice, announced " I am the Guardian of Forever "! I also fell out of my seat when you, Sean, suggested the Kelvin Universe could usevit to criss over into the Prime!
When Carl/Guardian of Forever showed up in Discovery my jaw was on the floor. I literally couldn't believe they brought back the GoF, let alone made it into some sort of being or intelligence that can manifest as a person/whatever. And brought in to help Georgiou and send her back to the (we assume) original time Discovery started around. When Carl just stopped and went "I am the guardian of forever" I think my heart skipped a couple beats.
Still haven’t recovered mentally from the sheer stupidity.
What episode? I somehow missed it.
@@lotstodo Um I think it was the 3rd or 2nd to last episode of S3. The episode is terrific also (well it's a two parter, once again in the mirror universe, since it's a test for Georgiou after all).
I really love and appreciate Sean's outro's I know that the concensus when creating content is short and sweet but hearing all the kindness he tries to put forth it just makes me smile and makes my heart happy ❤
That "Many such journeys can be made" line gives me the impression that the Guardian is an arcade machine for Qs.
Great article. Thank you Sean. Don’t be put off by the episode All Our Yesterdays being from the original third series. This episode and the third season actually very good.
I just love the idea of the mirror universe having a portal there only because I think it would look just like the portal we all know and love but just with a goatee. 🤪
Years ago, I saw Star Trek: The Exhibition, which was the old Stsr Trek: the Exhibition in Vegas. One of the props featured is the initial Guardian. It also featured several of the Enterprise-D models. Just fascinating.
Yasssss!!! Yesterday's Son and Time for Yesterday two of Star Treks greatest novels (at least in my opinion) a must read for any Trek fan. Trust you'll enjoy these two. I actually have signed paperbacks thank you A.C. Crispin. 8:22
I still say he's called Carl as a nod to Lorenzo Music's "Carlton your doorman" from Rhoda. He's a Door who's now a man. A Door-man.
Oooh! Great 👍 catch! I love this.
I'm SOOOOOO Glad you mention the Q-Series, I had recently reread them
I am so glad that you referenced the Mirror Universe together with the Kelvin Universe as I have often thought the numbers of parallel universes in ST to not just be binary but multiple, I have also wondered if there is not just ONE Prime universe but several e.g. Prime-The-Cage, Prime-Shartner-Kirk, Prime-SNW (which of course would account for the variations of The Cage versus SNW).
Finally The Guardian could not be played by anyone but Paul Guilfoyle he was perfect
It's kinda funny concerning Yesterday's Enterprise original story. They pulled that sort of thing off on Babylon 5 with Jeffrey Sinclair going back in time and becoming Valen, the Minbari leader.
I was wondering if anyone would pick up the similar storyline. 😀👍
So many story ideas are taken from one show or another trick is to do it so you don’t get a lawsuit. JMS was going to sue Paramount for stealing his ideas when he pitched them B5. They settled out of court. The transporters came from forbidden Planet.
Yes, it was indeed one of your geekier lists. I really couldn't imagine how you could come up with ten items for a list on the GoF, but you did it.
Don’t forget the Peter David novel “imzadi” that was a good GOF story and may have been obliquely referenced in “all good things”
You are a good man! I bought that novel when it was published many many years ago! Mr. David used to write such great Trek novels! I wonder what happened to him.
@@mrScififan2 agreed I thought he wrote TNG so well I was surprised none of his writings were ever utilized as a TNG movie script IMZADI or Q SQUARED woulda been better than nemesis
@@scottnahler4027 Yes, “Q-squared” was his best novel. He wrote such good Star Trek prose. He should have been a staff writer.
12:10. Not quite correct. The film is "The Spanish Main", not man, and it's from 1945 not 1939. It is an RKO film and you used the right clip image.
To make things more interesting...
That clip of a sailing ship firing that was used in "City on the Edge of Forever" was also used in the opening credits of Enterprise's 2 season four mirror universe episodes. In Enterprise they had cleaned up the shot and added a sepia tone to the original color sequence; it was b&w in TOS. Going solely off of screenshots from that film of the ship models used, I can say it really looks like the ship is The Baracuda from that film in both TOS and Enterprise.
I 💯 adore people who pay attention to detail. Thank you!
Things I'm surprised you didn't touch on:
- the "ruins" surrounding the portal were supposed to be "runes" but the set designer mis-heard
- the Federation spent years studying the Guardian, with the science team including an Aurelian
- It seems pretty clear that we were meant to think that McCoy was going to *kill* Keeler (why else have him steal the phaser?) and that the milk-thief vaporizing himself (and the gun) was meant to tie into the revelation that Edith needed to die. The fact that it really doesn't read that way when you're watching "City" seems like a directorial fail.
I once read a piece of fanfic that posited the homeless guy getting vaporized somehow tied into Star Trek (the show) not existing within the Trek universe.
I think that you've made excellent points and certainly have given me a new way to think about TOS's "City...", as opposed to Harlan Ellison's original scripts (plural---he wrote multiple drafts, to notes given by Roddenberry, for which professionalism he was never given credit.)
I believe that "the milk man" was Dorothy Fontana's attempt to incorporate something of HE's original character, "Trooper," the legless, homeless WWI veteran, who saves Kirk's life in Harlan Ellison's script, thereby begging the question: why did his life not matter?
One of the 47 voices he was doing for that episode... LOL. I see what you did there! Love the '47' Easter Eggs!
Doohan and Nichols literally did voice pretty much every guest or minor character on TAS, Arex and M'Ress being the most notable.
@@GSBarlev LOL, I knew that, I just like how Sean did a little wordplay of his own with the '47' gag that has been going on since TNG.
"... One of the 47 voices he was doing that week". Nice, Sean, very clever.
If you think Harlan Ellison was pissed off at what happened with this script, you should have seen his reaction with the botched Canadian production of The Starlost! You can read about it in the introduction to his book "Phoenix Without Ashes", the novelization of his original script for the pilot episode.
Wow! Somebody else remembers The Starlost!
This video was great, and hilarious! Thanks, Sean!
Now I would love to watch that Surak/ Sarek episode...
Pretty cool list! Fair play to ya fer the Bród hoodie!! 🖤🤎❤️🧡💛💚💙💜
Thanks for including "Yesterday's Son." I really liked that novel.
Did you read the sequel too?
“Time for Yesterday” is a longer tome, and just as fun! Zar is so great. I absolutely loved it.
I still have a large collection of those old classic novels, which I would buy every month (or so?) when they would come out back in the 80s. Yesterday's Son was one of my favourites!
Great review. You just missed the cartoon episode with Spock saving his younger self.
I've always loved the idea of the DISTANT ancestors of the Q being the race that built the Guardian.
This was a great list video, I am a geek at heart so thanks.
Ha! It was definitely one of your geekier lists! I love it for exactly that reason.
I remember the Guardian being in a few of the many Star Trek books I've read. Always a cool thing.
I LOVED "Yesterday's Son"!!
kittens are vicious little monsters. the Romulans aren't nearly as bad as any kitten I've ever seen.
Thanks Sean. You always make epic videos. Much love
I just noticed, Floyd's Barber shop..Star Trek used an Andy Griffith's set!!! Absolutely the same set. I found my own Easter Egg.
That's the old "Forty Acres" backlot. The Midwestern Town was originally built for "Gone with the Wind," and was redressed and re-used over and over again, most notably as Mayberry in "The Andy Griffith Show." You can even see the facade of the Atlanta Examiner in one shot in "City..." Star Trek also shot exteriors for "Miri," and "Return of the Archons" in the same outdoor set. The Mayberry streets were also used in episodes of "The Adventures of Superman," "Batman," "The Untouchables," and "Mission: Impossible."
And at the other end of the lot is The Arab Village, where exteriors for "The Cage" and "Errand of Mercy" were shot.
By the way, if you're thinking of making a pilgrimage to visit the location, you can't. It fell out of use and into disrepair, and was ultimately demolished to make way for a business park.
Omg a Kelvin timeline crossover would be freaking awesome. Ooooh I'm tingling!
Thing no. 11: Thanks to our friend Steve Shives, the Guardian is now known as Carl the Talking Time Donut.
Excellent presentation!
4:30 The Guardian actually explicitly states in TOS that he can connect to parallel universes.
I only know this because when this video showed up in my feed I first went and watched "City on the Edge of Forever." Which... wow.
Also, the situation with Sarek replacing Surak reminds me of a novella by Michael Morecock entitled "Behold the Man" where an lapsed Anglican goes back in time to meet Jesus of Nazareth and finds him an gibbering idiot. He replaces him and ends up being crucified in his stead.
Horrible novel.
Reminds me of Babylon 5 with the whole Valen/Sinclair Nimbari/Human plotline.
There were a couple other TV shows that did this. In one, an Elvis impersonator goes back in time, meets Elvis, and takes his place in History when Elvis is killed.
In the other, a Historian switches places with JFK, and is killed in Dallas, while JFK takes HIS place teaching History.
I'm sitting here waiting for you to bring up the Devil's heart. Gues you don't have time for all of them, but it basically explains how the guardian reproduces. There's this stone known as the devil's heart, the koenyah, and the Barajtak, depending on the planet you're on. Yes I butchered the spelling of all those names, I listened to it on audio. But Picard has to help the guardian send the stone through a wormhole so it can be planted as a seed to grow a new guardian somewhere in the universe.
The Guardian played a key role in DC's Star Trek (vol. 2) #53-57, where Kirk and crew have to use the Guardian to travel to a pivotal point in Klingon history, because the Romulans tried time travel shenanigans and wound up making the Klingon's peaceful AND erasing the Romulan Empire (and the Romulans) from History.
The Guardian of Forever must by default have access to parallel universes, because: As we see in "City of the Edge of Forever" the Guardian exists in both the prime timeline _and_ the timeline in which McCoy has changed history so that Starfleet no longer exists. In fact, the timeline seamlessly and instantaneously changes around The Guardian and it protects the crew from those changes while they are in its vicinity (much like the "temporal wake" in First Contact) and it doesn't even skip a beat.
Could The Guardian just have switched over to an alternate-dimension version of itself in the new timeline? I don't think so. Both it and the crew retain their knowledge of continuity from before the change.
I'm more inclined to think that there is only one version of The Guardian in total regardless of the number of alternate universes. That The Guardian exists separate from and is unaffected by any of the timelines; like a spider monitoring the far-flung vibrations of its web by just sitting the center observing the vibrations of the strands. And like that spider, it can travel down any of the strands it likes and return to the center whenever it likes to take another path.
If you think about it one way, if parallel universes begin when someone makes a decision, meaning all possibilities exist, then the Guardian of Forever would exist in all universes created after it was, meaning it could theoretically have access to all of them.
Since it has access to the Mirror Universe that means it was created before whatever event caused the Mirror Universe and ours to split apart, which was implied to be even farther back than us by the opening credits of the Enterprise episodes that take place there.
This was your best video yet! I'm a very big fan of the TOS season one, episode 28, "City On The Edge of Forever," and equally so of Discovery's season three, episode ten, "Terra Firma." When he introduced himself as Carl, I was on the floor. It was brilliantly done all up to the very end. I love many stories by Harlan Ellison and did not know that the original story was available in any format. I have already began looking for it and what commenter "@stuartwald2395" mentioned, "Spock v. Q," a must find as well. Keep up the most excellent post my friend and "Post On!"
do one of these for PEANUTHAMPER !
Very much enjoyed this video! I practically squeed over that episode of Discovery. 😁👌🏼
Yeah, Harlan Ellison was, indeed, an amazing author, but... just, srsly, he's a good advertisement for the old saying: "Never meet your heroes" He was not a nice guy. Doesn't change the fact that he wrote brilliant stories, though. Like a number of old, classic sci-fi authors, TBH. Of course there were awesome ones, too. I met a goodly amount of them, too, back in the day. I miss the old Sci-Fi Conventions. *_nostalgic smiling sigh_*
Love your Pride shirt, Seán! Mí Bród Shona duit!
Love the Guardian of Forever in the original series!
Didn't one of Peter David's books mention it as well?
In Beta canon, one of my favorite novels is Federation, which involves some of the best use of the Guardian I have seen.
Terra Ferma was one of the BEST ST:Disco episodes yet!! I loved that Phillippa was given the chance to redeem herself and that she did it! Michelle Yeoh is 61 years old and STILL smokin hot!!
During production of the film Star Trek (2009), it was briefly rumored that the Guardian would be used by the Romulans to go back in time.
I think that might have been a better option instead of having yet another impossibly massive and undefeatable Romulan death ship in a film which could have probably single-handedly won the Dominion War but was never mentioned.
The thing with Giorgiou being sent to the Mirror Universe through it may just be because that is her past, whereas for others their past is in the prime universe so it doesn't necessarily mean anyone can use the GOF to jump to the Mirror Universe.
And I though the rule is you cam travel in time or dimensions, but not both. So if our Ensign Kim from Voyager, who is from another universe, ever tries to travel in time in the Prime universe...
Same thing with Naomi Wilde...
That’s a good point, but I don’t think it’s valid because he sent her to the prime universe too. That would mean he had to choose when AND where to send her. And he also said “sending you somewhere else could cause trouble” which COULD be implying that he could even send her to somewhere besides the prime universe OR the mirror universe
@@christianmino4073 Was that when he sent her through at the end? Did he specifically say where he was sending her? I don't remember.
@@theredheadproject yeah she said “I won’t go back to terra” and he said “I’m not sending you there I’m going to send you to a place when the mirror universe and the prime universe were closer together.” But when he was explains why he tested her he says something alone the lines of “sending you somewhere else could cause trouble, so you had to be tested”
So that’s not 100% what he’s implying but I believe he’s able to send you anywhere. Maybe he works with the mirror universe guardian to do that.
The Next Gen novel 'Imzadi' is a Guardian of Forever story.
Yesterday's son had a sequel. That once again features the Guardian and it creators.
Excellent video!
2:00 Quantum physics, Sean ! Obviously 😂
👍🏻🤝🏻🇳🇱
Well-researched, Seán!
If a Guardian of Forever did exist in the Mirror Universe, I think it's likely that one of the various oppressive regimes (Terran Empire, Klingon-Cardassian Alliance) would have wanted it destroyed to prevent challenges to their authority through the use of time-travel or universe-crossing.
If you look at some of the other things, it does exist...the Guardian in some of the Beta stories that reference other realities is a multiversal entity that exists in all of them where it was/is/will be present.
Actually I believe this was mentioned in the book what happen to the GoF in the Mirror universe. It was destroyed and I think it was the Terran's. Again I think it was in Mirror Mirror and Picard or his counterpart "ol Shiny" who did it. But I could be wrong....
For a doorway, the Guardian certainly knows how to make an entrance...
10:38 Of all the reviews I've watched for SNW’s season 2 premiere, NO ONE has mentioned that Commander Pelia being bored could be a reference to this scene, especially since Quinn commented that it was because of boredom that (DeLancy’s) Q caused so much mischief.
I've come to think that Q and the rest of his species, the Worm whole Aliens AKA the Prophets, the Guardian of Forever and other similar 'god like beings' are completely outside time and therefore exist everywhere at once. So, to answer the question about whether there is a Guardian in the mirror universe or any other one, I'd say no. My thoughts going something like this. All the universes are distinguished by differences in events and their consequences and so if a being is outside the normal impact of time, that is normal for those species subject to the passage of time they won't exist in any other parallel universe and are capable of travelling between these different places with no ill effect to them, or the universes. Its not a novel idea I know, but it just feels right to me. Glad I've got that off my chest. Great videos as ever.
There is such much potential in a feature length ST film that centers around the Guardian, that I am surprised it hasn't been done already.
"47 voices" - Nice touch there... :P
That thing look femiliar.... o yes in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy movie !!!!!
Got some things wrong about the Harlan Ellison part. One of the major problems with his script was that it would have required the budget of a major movie to produce. He was asked to fix this. He wouldn't cooperate. So they had to change the script so that they could produce it on a budget they could afford.
Also, his play was published in an anthology way (Six SF Plays) back in the mid 1970s; I bought a copy of it myself. Imo the televised version was better. The one you refer to was simply a slickered up version that was the first to be published by itself.
That was GRs later claim but it is baseless. The Guardians were no more expensive than Land of the Giants trick photography...that had been already used in TZ or Lost in Space.
The crowd scene in a pro socialist labor riot was a bit expensive, but no more than the overpopulation episode of later TOS in extras. Also easy to cut.
The period street, costumes and cars was Mayberry Courthouse Square a standard Desilu backlot...and the cars and costumes were from The Untouchables (Desilu)...this would be used again for Piece of the Action...and Mayberry used in Miri was much more expensive as they had to redress the backlot severely.
The City on the Edge soundstage set was supposed to be exactly what Ellison wrote in draft 3, but a set crew messed up in reading the stage directions. A Runed City was interpreted as A City in Ruins. They built it and couldn't afford to fix it, so they added a howling wind and made it a ghost city.
Draft 2 had the Mirror Mirror naughty Enterprise because GRs team requested them include The Ship...but then they asked him to cut it on draft 3, which he did.
Draft 3 makes Bones the random element also...caused by a lab experiment with an alien animal.
So no, the 1st draft would not have been too expensive...however it had some elements already done in other S1 episodes that Ellison had no knowledge of:
Court Marshal
Space drugs
Onboard murder
And Spock was to command a firing squad to execute the criminal. GRs team didn't like that and it didn't fit the character reworked after WNMHGB which is the only episode Ellison was shown before writing his story.
@S Tho Thank 😊 you. Harlan Ellison's professionalism is *always* called into question about The City on the Edge of Forever, when in fact HE worked his butt off, draft after draft after draft, to conform to notes he was given by GR. Subsequently, after his good friend Dorothy Fontana rewrote "City" without telling him, and GR began spreading lies like, "Harlan Ellison's original script had Scotty dealing drugs" (the 'jewels of sound' were worse than Harry Mudd's 'Venus Drug' 🤔 how?), Ellison became bitter. It was he who organized the entire writing campaign to "save Star Trek" so the betrayal was a chasm an inch wide and a million miles deep. No one can convince me that "City on the Edge of Forever" would have been as good without the fundamentals of Harlan Ellison's original scripts.
I think it was one of your best lists and it’s also my favorite reason for discovery. I love the Guardian, and if they never used them again, I would’ve sent me on TV now the next generation a DS nine nova not even enterprise they need to use it again so many possibilities. I know there’s problems with it but so many things you could do with it always possibilities Spock says that’s one of the reasons I loved the Star Trek the animated series the guardian again and there are a lot of good fan films on the Internet on UA-cam that use the guardian to there’s a great show called Star Trek continues and Star Trek a new voyages that is the guardian they used a lot of old TV actors that were in the original show and ones you would have loved to see in Star Trek like Gil Gérard Lauren Gray, and my favorite Tasha yours, grandmother find a cure for regular blood worms, and they mention how enterprise captain which sets up the concept of the Klingon, hi counseling, would using Trường it’s based on Star Trek phase to Scripps what’s the first mention the ships consul on the enterprise the hallow deck by Scotty himself?
i LOVE the Guardian of Forever, and this was such a good list that i didn't even downvote it just because the host was the jerk who crapped all over Peanuthamper.
Good to know. Thank you.
I think the original script had too much in it. It needed changing.
I always thought that the race of beings from TNG's "the Chase" that seeded the primordial soup in many worlds would have been the ones to have built the Guardian of Forever.
Babylon 5 also had a [SPOILERS] present-replaces-past character with Sinclair/Valen, but they'd lined it up for a rather long time for it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy which has =always= happened.
You mean that a namesake of mine was a baddie in the original series of Star Trek! Wow! 😃
I want the statement from the original trek episode when it says I AM THE GUARDIAN OF FOREVER as my phone ringtone.
Always like to see things like the above to help fill in the blanks! It may be a wife's tale that short people are more 'touchy' than those who are not, but Ellison kind of fits the bill. Him and Asimov were kind of alike and had some kind of a love, hate relationship. I'd like to read Ellison's version; is it still available?
Great video Séan!
4:27 I would surmise that the Guardian is much like a Q. In that there isn't another "copy" of the Guardian in the mirror universe, the one that would be there IS the one that would be here. The Guardian appears to be very neutral, so neutral that it could exist in both the Dark Universe and the prime universe and appear exactly the same. That being said, the only "on screen" use of its ability to cross universes is laid out with Philippa Georgiou, who came from the other universe. Which could show that while it CAN allow passage to another universe, it most likely won't allow it out side of special circumstances. It can also relocate itself anywhere it chooses. During the Temporal Cold Wars, many factions tried to use the Guardian as a means of quick and dirty time travel, rather than allow that it simply packed up and moved to another location without leaving a forwarding address. Which means that even if the Dark Universe knew of the Guardian's existence, they might not know where it is.
Moving a little bit outside of the box and getting into some of the books(your beta canon from 10:00 ), in the Q Continuum trilogy of books(which so far haven't been contradicted by any on screen canon) Q attempted to bring a being from another universe across to the prime universe. Recognizing the threat this being presented, the Guardian actually resisted Q's attempts. The Guardian failed and Q was able to bring the other being across. But it shows that the Guardian has the power to actually resist a Q for a time(which is where the line from Q comes from about ancestors knowing how to make things, this ancient device still had the power to put up a decent fight). Meaning that if a simple mortal being were to try to make the attempt and the Guardian says no, there's nothing that mortal could do about it. So the universe hopping would be purely at the discretion of the Guardian. And given it's purely neutral status, it's unlikely that it would just allow that without ample justification.
I've never heard of the Sarek/Surak plotline. WOW...
I can’t believe you’re reviewing the discover tripe.
No mention of the novel "Imzadi" by Peter David?
I don't remember the name of the book but there was a great book that took place between Kirks retirement and his loss in Generations that features the Guardian very heavily.
The script was changed when Denise Crosby returned to Star Trek; And it is all the more better for it. The previous script was very stereotypical of the average meh which was the Next Gen standard episodes between the major plot events. It also freed up Sarek to have a role later on in the series; Yes he dies, but it is a significant event to the Vulcan/Romulan reunification plot.
There are two fan fiction Star Trek episodes where we see more of the guardian being used to correct the past. In one, Commodore Decker entered the Doomsday machine and is thrown into early 21 century Earth, while the Doomsday Machine gets thrown back in time and encounters the Enterprise under the command of Captain Pike. The Enterprise is destroyed along with Vulcan in the Doomsday war. KirK, In command of the Farragut gets called to the Guardian planet where they have found a larger guardian and they send the Farragut through to stop the Guardian from destroying the Enterprise.
In another fan fiction, Uhura is married to a Vulcan and living there when Charlie X reappears and enters the Guardian to go kill Captain Kirk. After he kills Captain Kirk, a super powered Garry Micheal shows up and destroys the prime timeline. Uhura teams up with Checkov and admiral John Harriman and they find an older and sadder Charlie X who regrets killing Kirk. Charlie X fights Gary Mitchell but can not beat so he has to return to the Guardian to stop himself from killing Kirk. If I remember it correctly, both the past Charlie and future Charlie are killed!
Gotta say that I love the fan fiction New Voyages staring James Cawley and Star Trek continues staring Vic Mignogna. The fan film Axanar looked fantastic before it was killed.
There's another featuring the captain of the Equinox.
Cool list! 😊
13:52 ...reminds me of Moorcock's 'Behold the Man', where time traveler Karl Glogauer goes back in time to meet Jesus, and effectively becomes him.
I want to see one of these videos on Colonel Green.
Interesting. I'm still trying to figure out if the character Charlie from the episode Charlie X was part of the Q continium
Your list is so ... beefy. 😀 Great vid, as always!!!
"MREE, MREE, MREE said the TICK TOCK MAN" !!!
I really don't like Discovery overall, but that moment...when after a fairly pedestrian and predictable episode, we get that line "I AM THE GUARDIAN OF FOREVER" - that's one of the best Star Trek reveals I've ever seen.
I hope we see the Guardian again on-screen.
What does the audio sound more muffled?
Can someone explain what is written on his pullover. I pretty sure that it is some kind of Scandinavian language. My only guess is that it means bread. My native language is German in which it's Brot and I know that some words are quite similar in "both" languages. Please explain
It's Proud in Irish. (another commenter said Bród - meas mhor a Sheán... and that through google translate is Proud - much respect John.)
When Edith and Kirk walk past Floyd's Barber Shop, prove that they weren't on the set of "The Andy Griffin Show."
There used to be a website (It's now shut down) that had an annotated aerial photograph showing all the locations in the Mayberry exterior set where Star Trek shot scenes, not just for "City on the Edge of Forever," but also "Miri" and "Return of the Archons."
How can you not mention the animated series episode? It had spock replaced by an Andorian, Spocks pet and explains that Kirk and Spock changed the past without knowing it. Big miss.
"Yesteryear" by Dorothy Fontana, featuring i'Chaya, Spock's 12 foot fanged teddy bear first referenced by Amanda in "Journey to Babel."
That one is a brilliant use of The Guardian, explores Spock's past, Vulcan, and his relationship with Sarek as a 7 year old. Great catch! 👍
I came here looking for someone to bring it up. As mentioned by another poster, it was written by DC Fontana, one of Trek’s most important screenwriters. She also referenced it in her novel, “Vulcan’s Glory”.
He does mention that James Doohan did the voice work for the Guardian in that episode.
...But that's about it.
isn't the sailing ship in number 2 the same one as in Enterprise In A Mirror, Darkly?
11:00 It's no "O", it's "0" - zero.
i like the Q connection to the Gardian
Instead of saying..."I'm Carl." I wish he had said..."I'm Gof." That would have been funnier and cathartic.