Why did most Men in Middle-earth serve evil?
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- I'm not one for schedules, and I've had a bit of free time lately, so I thought, "Why not make another video?" In this video, we explore the reason why Men such as the Haradrim and Easterlings fought for Sauron during the Third Age.
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Not gonna lie, I was a little tempted to name this video, "Why do most Men serve evil?" LOTR fans would know what I'm talking about, but if it ever went viral, it would become clickbait of epic proportions.
Darth Gandalf should do a video on how big the orc army is specifically during the siege of minas tirith
Would still be correct though
I serve breakfast. People seem to like that. Yeah, I’m evil, but I’ll hook you up with bacon and cheese. Does that make up for child sacrifice? Well, that’s for each person to decide for themselves. (I mean bacon and cheese, come on)
Because it is what we are best at. Pointless killing, but told there is a reason and we fight and kill. The President says someone has done something and declares war, Sauron says "these people have upset me, kill them" and they kill them. Where is the difference? Sauron is Hitler "kill Jews", Nazis kill Jews, or Putin "I'm fed up of peace. Invade Ukraine" and so Russia invades. If the White Man wanted something He took it and killed the rightful owners. If Sauron wants something, he takes it. Greed was learnt from the White Man. Yes there was human sacrifice, but that was for the gods. Yes, others kept slaves, but for greed of purpose. The White Man taught personal greed and abusing the innocent and their people and lands. It is the Hunter-gathers who are the only ones who are truly good, and they are suffering because of greed and they're wanting to be left to live peaceful lives. Most 'Men' are evil.
Three kingdoms does not necessarily imply that only those men were good. There were plenty of men in the Anduin, among the hills such as the Druadan and the totality of Eriador was also inhabited by numerous men who did not serve evil and actively fought against it.
Great video, although I miss one particular quote in this regard.
_“The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo - Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir-up rebellion … and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East … They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East … who would both in the Second and Third Age otherwise have … outnumbered the West.”_ - HoME XII
This quote shows us that Sauron's grasp over the East and possibly South was strong but not unbreakable. And that there were maybe even people living there that were redeemed.
Yes, I am aware this is a debated topic since this quote seems to be in contrast to Tolkien earlier writings of cults in the East that outlasted Sauron's reign - but I don't think those quotes and this one should necessarily be seen as mutually exclusive. After all, those cults could've been part of the resistance against Sauron. However, this reading might still imply that they still served evil. Another interpretation might implement the birth of religions that weren't completely "correct" in terms of the lore we read in the Silmarillion but still morally sound - so redeeming them without making them worship Eru (thus setting apart from christianity).
the easterling march on film is such a powerful film moment
What a great video. I never really thought about human distributions versus serving light and darkness, in LOTR...
The Blue Wizards, Saruman (before turned into evil), and even Gandalf traveled to Rhûn and Harad, and Tolkien himself changed his mind about the mission of blue wizards, telling that they were well succeeded to organize a resistance against Sauron that managed to give time to the Free Peoples to not be destroyed even before Sméagol took the One Ring.
So, we can assume some evil men (and problably some of the evil dwarves) rebelled against Sauron at least since the late 2nd Age (the Blue Wizards came first directlly to the East in late 2nd Age) and problably kept a resistance during the 3rd Age, Saruman also traveled eastwards with the Blue Wizards, Gandalf traveled to Harad, however Gandalf problably wasn't so well received as the Blue Wizars because the Haradrin called him "Incannus" ("Spy of the North" in their language), we also don't know if Saruman and the Blue Wizards also traveled to Harad, or if Gandalf also traveled to Rhûn, or even if Radagast managed to go east to Mirkwood.
I guess all the wizards, mostly the Blue Wizards in the East, and Gandalf in the West, managed to seed some hope in the hearts of the "wicked" men. Gandalf was problably more well succeeded because of his ring of power that seemed to have this power to sparkle a fire in the hearts of men (his ring of power named Narya, the ring of fire can show this) and because he focused much more on the Free Peoples than in the rest, and I'm not only talking about Elves and Men, but the Hobbits and the Dwarves, mostly the Longbeards/Durin's Folk. But the Blue Wizards problably succeeded because they arrived way before the other wizards, we also can mentioned Tolkien also changed the time they arrived, first they all arrived around 1000 of the 3rd Age, then he changed making the Blue Wizards arriving in the late 2nd Age, during this time many Easterlings were still hating Morgoth for his betrayals in the 1st Age, some of them problably resisted against Sauron first attempts to re-conquered them in the early 2nd Age and problably some Easterlings were still resisting against him when the Blue Wizards arrived between the late 2nd Age and early 3rd Age;
At same time (late 2nd Age and early 3rd Age) Sauron were defeated at least twice, first when he did his fake surrender to Ar-Pharazôn and then when he was defeated in the War of the Last Alliance. I guess the Blue Wizards managed to used well the "timing" when Sauron was not personally present and then when Sauron was defeated and severelly weakend, using this to change the side of some Easterlings.
Another problem in Tolkien is that the stories have been telling by the perspective of the Free Peoples, no one is 100% certain about the perspective of the wicked men, about they complexity, societies, about the revanchism some of them problably had with the numenoreans, specially the Haradrin and the Middle-Men (the Enedwaith and the Dunlendings), and about the diversity of tribes, kingdoms and peoples they have, as well as internal conflicts (that the Free Peoples also had since the 1st Age), etc. I'm totally agree that most of them followed Sauron as a God-King to be followed, but many of them simply followed him by fear, or because they believed they were fighting with the most powerful side (as you mentioned at the end of this video). Problably some men who resisted him were enslaved, we have some hint concerning this about the Nurniags, the native inhabitants of Nurn who were enslaved by Sauron, at same time, seing that the lands of Rhûn and Harad are huge, and not known or even imagined in Tolkien's world maps of the 3rd Age, is very difficult to imagine there were no tribes and kingdoms that didn't support Sauron. Some few of them were still resisting against him in late 3rd Age, and others only supported him by sending tributes, mostly by force, and not sending their own troops to fight and die for the Dark Lord.
Honestly there's a lot to criticize about Eru or the Valar. They just left their creations to suffer because of free will, or something. Nothing is explained to them about death, so of course they fear it. Even Arwen admits that it's a raw deal when she becomes mortal and understand what it's like.
You are wrong, because those names you mention intervene in certain time in middle earth, but when they do the result are always catastrophic. Except during smeagol tripping and throw The One Ring into the lava perhaps. Evil are also allowed because without evil, immense goodness and beautiful things can be possibly exist, evil serve as disparity agent.
@@cool06alt not everything they do would destroy Middle Earth because they created it themselves, it's not an object they don't know how to manipulate and most of the reasons why Middle Earth gets ruined is because directly challenging an entity only second to an omnipotent being has that effect. It's like humans can burn down a forest but lighting a candle does not have the same effect
After the war of the Ring, Gondor annexed its occupied sourthern provinces from Harad and was involved in continual bitter struggles for control of the sea of Rhun. Also its hard to believe that Rohan or Gondor would have tolerated any Orcs within their borders and would have mostly likely killed the former Servants of Sauron on sight as they were for ages considered irredeemably evil by nature.
In meta sense though, Morgoth poured his evil into Arda from the start and it was in all beings even men. Men, irrespective of the existence of a supernatural Dark Lord, could still easily commit evil through their own actions and ambitions.
It seems like Eru Ilúvatar is the real villain behind all the suffering. He allowed Morgoth to get out of control and did not help men when he should. He might as well have been Morgoth's best friend for everything he allowed Morgoth to get away with.
Agreed
It's called the problem of ''THEODICY''
This all goes back to Christian theology. The age old question of if God is omnipotent and benevolent, why does he allow evil and suffering to exist. But Tolkien goes one step further in explaining this by calling death Eru's gift to Men, which is supposedly the greatest gift he gave to any of his children. So basically his benevolence comes in form of allowing Men to leave the world he created for them. Which is kinda twisted, but also explains why Morgoth had free reign to do what he did. Indeed, Morgoth's deeds are a part of Eru's designs. We as men are just left wondering, what the purpose of it all is.
No, that’s not how it works. Morgoth had free will, Eru allowed him free will and he chose evil. Simple.
I've always thought that the 2nd children were s***ed over by the Valar. I mean they seek out the elves and teach the elves and protect them, but the humans are left on their own. The fact that s9ome men turned out noble speaks volumes for their quality.
The Valar failed Eru again regarding Men. Like before with elves. Only Ulmo was wise enough to know that they are not doing it right
I’ve heard that before he died, Tolkien was planning on rewriting parts of the legendarium concerning Orcs and Easterlings because he was uncomfortable with the concept of entire races being evil cannon fodder. I think it’s a shame we didn’t get to see that, because it probably would’ve helped address some of these questions and complaints.
Well if you think about it Sauron looks evil to our eyes because we follow the heroes of the story, but maybe in in Harad or Rhun culture a great noble warrior looks like Sauron. The forces of Rhun look quite advanced for people with no contact with the elves, or numeriorians, so maybe Sauron raised there up from huts to cities of stone and marble, gave them the skill to craft weapons of steel and armour. If told for generations that Sauron was looking after your people to shield you from the evils of the rest and there corrupt gods you would believe it, add in that every encounter with these folks ends in death and burning of your towns. surely only evil men would follow a god that would flood his own children's island after all.
Maybe Sauron provides food from the fertile south of Mordor to the starving tribes of Harad and towns of Rhun, great wealth and knowledge as well. reason why Sauron looks so evil and dark along with his strongholds is to simply intimate the west from attacking. The people of the east these men of darkness see Sauron as a god and king, so maybe it is out of fear and loyalist to him, after all maybe he is offering to let them move into the fertile lands of the west in victory, or as he helped them advance there civilisations.
Like yourself said Eru, Valar and Maiar all abandoned the men to a cruel world, while Morgoth and Sauron took them in, yes while they where not all loving they did still stick around with the men of the east and guide them while no one else did. If you where in such a situation would you not accept there help and follow them to be kept safe from the "evil" of the West. After all how do you know what is evil when you where only raised by evil and the good guys are your "evil". Of course in the LOTR world there is such a thing as true good since Eru the god of that world deemed it so.
Great video indeed, it is a shame Rhun is not covered so well in LOTR lore at all.
@hasan veysel erol Yeah there is a lot of ways Sauron and Melkor could turn men to there side, i mean like you said Eru favours the elves, gives them immortality, great powers and a afterlife. the men get none of these but death. so very easy to sell that Eru has no love for men.
Everyone in this thread needs to learn the difference between there and their
I think you’re missing some important things. Morgoth and Sauron are the classic trickster villains who give great gifts, but these gifts are ultimately ways of controlling, dominating, and enslaving them. Because Morgoth basically creates their society, he controls everything about it. Sauron’s rings give you massive power, but literally make you mentally enslaved to his will to the point where you literally can’t disobey him.
Eru, meanwhile, gave essentially just two, very broad gifts to men: the gift of life, and the gift of death. Eru and the Valar don’t control, transform, or dominate men the way Morgoth and later Sauron do. This is why the “free kingdoms” are called “free”.
@@JurzGarz We know but imagine being born into a kingdom of men ruled by one of the dark lords, to you the free people and the valor and Eru would be evil. I mean you men are given the "gift" of death while the elfs live on forever. it would seem unfair.
The early men had no friendly Vala such as Orome to befriend them, neither at the beginning nor later - - in fact, the history of the Valar with men (the Younger Children of Illuvatar, remember) is one of disdain bordering on hostility - - how else to explain the Ban of the Valar placed on the Numenoreans? "Well, you humans made friends of the Elves during the First Age, but you can't visit them here in Valinor because...you smell?" It would be one thing to forbid men homes in Aman, but to forbid them from even visiting?
Just like the quote that I hear
Pressure creates both coal and diamond
And coal is common while diamond is rare
Really appreciate your breakdown, I pretty much learn something new all-works Tolkien coming from you. I've only read the Silmarillion, 3 LOTR books only once.
We can see that with Sauron gone as a power in the world that his followers are basically lost and listless. Their societies do survive however and there's no reason to presume that they're following evil anymore. That said, thousands of years of violence and indoctrination are still going to leave them as pretty warlike societies. The Men of Gondor and Arnor would come to a sort of understanding with them, we see that after being crushed that both the Haradrim and the Easterlings would sign treaties with the Reunited Kingdom, they weren't wiped out.
Such a good video!!! I agree with your opinion 100%
I really like those scenes as well, I wish I knew what those easternlings were saying marching to the black gate
Can there be any estimates be made for the strength of Numenor at its peak?
Easily in the millions. Remember that Sauron's forces FLED at the mere size of Numenor's fleet. Ar_pharazon created the Great Armament and the fleet was so vast that it was able to completely surround outlying islands of Valinor.
Galadriel said men’s hearts were easily corrupted
Darth How biut a video on Middle Earth plague history/theories... if there is any 😊👍
I think the plagues where very likely created by Sauron.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD it is pretty heavily implied. Also very beneficial to him at any rate
@@Kilo_Alpha_Delta Make you wonder if he sent agents into Gondor as well to sell fake cures as well, just to rub salt into the wound more.
I'll definitely be doing a video on the Great Plague in the near future. No better time really.
@@DarthGandalfYT The timing is quite fitting.
The Rohirrim weren't of the Edain.
Well the nine men, who received the rings for themselves, ended up becoming corrupted by the power of those rings which turned them into the evil hooded horsemen in the first movie. As for the Haradrim and Easterlings, it is possible that when Sauron set forth to have them fight for him that they viewed him as an all powerful being to rule over all. Therefore allying with Mordor to fight for Sauron to show their loyalty to him and be rewarded handsomely for their service to an all powerful ruler among mere mortals. Even seeing the witch king would likely have made the rulers of the Easterlings and Haradrim wish to ally with Mordor to be on good terms with Sauron, once all those who opposed him would be no more.
Sauron is just like Lucifer a loser who backs a loser! that is my problem with morgoth or sauron they always end up losing in the end! I cant back a loser!
Amazon could have fleshed this out..this is a very very important plot point as to why most Men are evil. Instead we have Guyladriel.
Sauron is their landlord I guess
I thought that The giver of gifts was the name of Sauron when he introduced himself as Anatar to Celebrimbor... Am i wrong?
You are correct. Sauron and Morgoth both used the same name when assuming their fair forms. There's a good chance that Sauron used the name as a tribute to Morgoth.
@@DarthGandalfYT
It appears to allude to deutero - canonical Scripture ( especially the First Book of Enoch) which relates to how many arts and crafts (such as metal - working) were taught to humans by fallen angels.
The story of Prometheus may be in the mix too.
Because we're bad. That is why.
Morgoth hardly ever left his strong hold is their a chance its just sauron under morgoth who annatar again? His first attempt and why he thought he could trick the elves because it had worked on men!
Honestly, what about the men of the east and south is "evil"? All they do is fight the elves, who consider them a lesser race and try to dominate their culture, language and government. They also fight the Edain, who in their eyes have become lackeys of the elves. Tolkien keeps calling them evil but doesn't show it enough.
Obviously things like human sacrifice are awful, but like you said, the "evil" men had had no choice
What happened to the men of the east after Saurons defeat?
The same reason most men today do not follow Christ and what is good. We are in a fallen state and are far from what we once were.
This part of the legendarium is so realistic.
What was the actual relationship between Haradrim and the Corsairs, since , if memory serves me right, they are descendants of Númenóreans
By the time of the War of the Ring, the Corsairs are pretty much just Haradrim themselves, but maybe slightly more mixed. At certain points, Umbar has been ruled by Númenóreans (first the Black Númenóreans, then the Sons of Castamir), but Gondor wiped them out on both occasions.
@@DarthGandalfYT oh okay thanks
the gods of this world are so incompetent. even more than ours lol
Easy. Most men do, in our world and Middle Earth, knowingly or otherwise.
You’re wrong Sauron was not evil, he saw the chaos in middle earth and wanted law and order and the only way he could see that happening was with him as a lord over all he didn’t just want devastation and destruction where as Morgoth wanted just that, two very different characters
Law and order aren't necessarily good. If done for purely selfish reasons and command slavery, domination possibly extinction of the free will and fear, they are evil. There is more than one way to be evil. Goodness is a narrow path that leads through a dense forest of evil thoughts and temptations. If you leave this path, it'll be hard to return or find your way out of the woods, especially if you're on your own.
Capitalism, most likely
Evil is a word used by dull prudish people to describe those that are living it up, everyone in middle earth knew the party was in morgoth and suarons pads, cocaine, women, good musics, weve all watched the hobbit and seen and heard an elvish do, so you can see why people would go to where its most thrilling.
Mmm. I feel like you're oversimplifying "evil" all too much. Keep in mind that Tolkien takes a lot from the judeo-christian belief set to build his legendarium. When Morgoth first addresses the early men, it appears to me that the best way to comprehend that "seduction" into evil is to compare it to the enticements of Satan -as portrayed in the Bible- to the early prophets and holy men. REMEMBER. Similarly to lucifer, Melkor believes his intentions and motivations to be good, just like Sauron does... and even Hitler to his crazy extent. Besides, Morgoth and Sauron first held a bueatiful visage (according to Tolkien), later to make themselves look menacing in order to incite fear, which you DO mention in the video... Then again. I don't think FEAR was the selling point here. If you are to understand Tolkien fully, I think you might want to learn a little more about ancient earthly religions. I think you will find tons of more accurate answers to your very good videos. Because, though I am critical, I am a big fan of your take on Tolkier's work. Cheers.
Hey Darth, Have you noticed the culture adoption for the Easterlings, they are so much Middle Eastern in the turbans and skin color.
Do you think Tolkien was raciest in identifying the West with the good people (Men of the west) and The middle eastern or East as the wicked Men ? as if it is an ideology he is following or something.
Sure thing I love his fantasy and every thing, but when I think about it that way, Sure his real world effected his fantasy, and by saying his I mean that's not the real world.
If you generalise Tolkien's work, it's definitely possible to come to the conclusion that his writings can pass as somewhat racist. However, I'd always advise caution on generalising any work, especially Tolkien's, who repeatedly stated that he hated allegory and that Middle-earth was not based upon the real world.
I think Tolkien's writings are undoubtedly Eurocentric, but that was always his intention. His writing intended on creating a "mythology" for England, similar to how Beowulf was meant to be a mythology for Scandinavia. Therefore, the characters, peoples and environments were always going to be based off Europe, as opposed to being based off Asia or Africa.
As for different races of Men, you could make the connection that the Men of the West are the good, "white" people, as opposed to the Men of Darkness who were the evil, "darker" people. However, that sort of ignores plenty of outliers - the Numenoreans (the "chosen" race, you could say) ended up turning to evil and practiced colonialism upon the natives of Middle-earth. The Dunlendings and Hillmen of Rhudaur are both white and fought for evil, Castamir the Usurper was a white, "pure-blooded" Numenorean fighting against a foe of "lesser, mixed-blood", yet Castamir was undoubtedly portrayed as the villain. A consistent theme in his writings is that power corrupts, and that can affect anyone, whether they're an Elf, a Numenorean or a Easterling or a Southron.
Tolkien sometimes used some pretty colourful language, and obviously people of different colours aren't given a huge role in his writings. It's easy to criticise those things through the lenses of time. However, I think that's due to him being a product of his time and environment. I don't think he was a racist, nor do I think his works are racist - unlike someone like HP Lovecraft who was a massive racist.
If you're interested in reading more on the topic, then this page is really good - tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racism_in_Tolkien%27s_Works
@@DarthGandalfYT well, your answer eased the theory and I love how you addressed this point, however, me as an Arab I see that a culture crash happened when they based the wicked men culture on desert and turbans.
Maybe you're right, he's not racist, but we can't deny that he's influenced by stereotypes of normal European that lived in his time about "Arabs" "false beliefs" " barbarism" and all that stuff that built the foundation of western arabic racism dilemma.
Anyway, thanks so much for replying and keep up the good work ❤👍
@@ahmedeltayb991 I actually see the Easterlings and Haradrim as being more like Persians, rather than Arabs etc. The desert/turban thing is more a Peter Jackson "innovation". Perhaps its influenced by the old "free Greek citizen-hoplites VS despotic Persian slaves" thing in classical studies. Tolkien would definitely have been very familiar with classics.
@@shastasilverchairsg On the other hand, I always saw the Easterlings more like eastern europeans/central asians rather than middleeasterns. Something like the Khazars or the Cumans, maybe even the Huns or the Magyars. Would also make sense, seeing the geography of Rhun being in the north and with huge grassy plains.
Tolkien definitely wasn’t actively racist, he didn’t have any dislike or malice towards non-white peoples (unlike, as mentioned before, Lovecraft). However, his works also reflect many ideas that were widespread in the first half of the 20th century, but are now considered ignorant and offensive. For example, the Haradrim and Ruhn are reflections of a (now largely debunked) trope that pre-modern Europe was in perpetual conflict with the Turks and Arabs.
It’s best to judge him as a man of his time in that regard. For what it’s worth, his works also heavily criticize prejudice. There’s tons of prejudice in Tolkien’s works- Elves against humans, humans against elves, dwarves against elves, elves against dwarves, etc.- and this prejudice is always portrayed as wrong and ignorant. That’s an important thing to note.