His comments are not from dislike. His comments are spot on. Wynton is a fantastic trumpet player but he is the first “keeper of the flame” that never developed an individual voice or advanced the art form. His efforts to further the art form are limited to making Jazz popular.
@@Jamestown-y9j I think his arregments of classic standards on his first albums were quite groundbreaking. But i don't know if that was Wynton or Jeff Watts.
Thats why they called them purist. Usually purist are the last ones standing...and also gatekeeping, especially if they have the influence like Marsalis.
BillWarfield. I agree with you totally. Rumor has it that his Brother Branford had the same problem with Wynton. To me. Experimenting with Jazz is Needed. It can be some BORING MUSIC with it.
Many many years ago a great woman singer said to me, "Do you know the most jealous people you'll ever meet are musicians" and sure enough I've found this to be true.
Computer generated. The title is Clickbait. You never heard Miles say that he hated Wynton. The voice is A.I. generated and can be heard on many AI generated videos.
What we do know is, Miles was one of the greatest musical innovators ever. He influenced countless musicians in countless genres. He made the biggest selling jazz record with "Kind Of Blue."
I agree with anyone who says that this "rivalry" is non-existent. Miles just didn't care for Wynton's sound and style. Wynton is a great trumpet player. Wynton is instrumental in paying homage to music history, and teaching us about the musicians that came before us. Wynton is an educator, and a jazz ambassador. Miles was an artist. Miles blazed new trails in music. Miles was an entrepreneur, a musical visionary. They are just two different people who bring different styles and approaches to the music.
Wynton Marsalis in my opinion disrespected Miles Davis. Miles Davis paved the way for young black musicians to even be where Wynton even got to be where he was when he got recognized. It's just another one of those things that white people in the business try to turn us as black people against one another. Anybody that's into reading, I recommend that they read Miles Davis Autobiography, it's one of my favorite books. So, y'all check it out. Miles tells the story of any and all the truth. May he RIP. Later ✌️
@RogerHiggins I don't disagree. TBH I have never been all that into Wynton. He is a great player, but his playing lacks personality. He pays great homage to jazz history but hasn't contributed much to the future of music. Miles basically changed the face of jazz and blazed new trails. And frankly, I just enjoy listening to Miles, can't say the same for Wynton. But that's just my opinion.
I've never been a big fan of Wynton either. You just couldn't feel his music. It just didn't reach the soul, as compared to Miles Davis. Miles has classic jazz that will live the test of time. Miles did have some personality issues that were revealed by his late ex-wife, Cicely Tyson. But, who hasn't had a bad marriage?
Wynton is conservative and Miles was liberal. It is the experimental and liberal nature of the early jazz pioneers who created various forms of jazz. Wynton had his chance to create something fundamentally new but the train has left the station.
Actually the "train has left the station" applies to Miles. At the end of his career he was playing a lot of garbage. He'd never admit it but he was trying jump onto the hip hop train smooth jazz train. I've enjoyed a lot of the things Wynton has done in recent years, going back to the roots of New Orleans jazz, making it sound vibrant and real, without all the doodads, echoplexes or whatever that Miles featured on his later albums.
@@MrRezillo What you're saying doesn't apply to Miles career overall. As far as things stand between the two, there was a more genuine artistic approach Miles Davis had to art itself (not just Jazz), that Wynton was at odds with. They're both great players in their respective fields. But if you asked whose music garners more clout, it would be Miles Davis. But that doesn't make this a matter of competition, though the media, false cogoscenti, and charlatans of the craft would love to surmise and promote otherwise. It's very important that we don't lose sight of what's most important here: integrity. At the end of the day, the spirit of what was, what is now and what is to come shouldn't be adulterated to a pointless argument about who did better at this craft and so on. I await the day humanity awakens from this trivial business....It'll be the year 3000 or after.
No; Miles did not despised Winton. He just was right on his perception that Marsalis doesn't stand as a musical star by his own but by abiding to whatever the musical culture dictates and this is counter Miles' paradigm on what an artist should be.
I think the problem is that Jazz had always morphed from one style to another as the culture changed. Wynton, in my view, made jazz into more of a museum piece, and started a death spiral which has not in fact kept jazz alive.
Nobody can take away Miles' greatness'; what he accomplished and the legacy that he left behind. However, when he got older, he wanted to be a "star" and started playing rock! Personally, I'm not particular about rock, so I wasn't sold. Meanwhile, the smooth jazz guys had hijacked real jazz and the jazz practitioners were beginning to starve. Wynton came along and rescued real jazz and reinvigorated its viability. For that he's one of my greatest heroes!
@@muhammadyungai9053 I'm not sure there's really anything one could call "real jazz?" What would make jazz real or not. Jazz has had such an impact on all music, I find the lines have gotten kinda fuzzy over time. I'd almost be satisfied stopping with Louie Armstrong's quip about whether it swings or not as a definition. But really I just listen to what moves me in some way and let the pundits sort the categories out.
this feels like an AI generated vid, aiming in part to throw shade at Wynton and a real shame to see so many jumping on the bandwagon trashing one of the great Trumpeters. I’ll take Lee Morgan over all of ‘em to be honest, but there’s no denying that Miles is the most important jazz trumpeter, period. But why stir up hatred against Wynton, who is a remarkable player and has done so much for Jazz? People need to stop this shit.
@@skillet6870 how many major influential white musicians did Miles actually engage to play with? Careless statement that doesn’t reflect how he lived. Stop perpetuating that tired myth. Gil Evans Bill Evans etc etc to Mike Stern. Miles did not have to patronize white people or musicians. They got on his gigs because they were the best of what he wanted.
@louisalfred3 Racist white american history -- including the music industry is filled with "careless statements" careless double standards, careless racism and white violent cops who beat Miles outside of Bird Land which led to Miles being quoted as saying during an interview "if someone told me I had an hour to live, I'd spend that hour choking a white man". Now goadda bed.
Wynton was an establishment crony trying to perpetuate a myth of jazz frozen in time whereas Miles was a artist, continually breaking the barriers down.
I was there in Vancouver in 1986. Here's my memory. - Miles was standing right in front of the drums, back to the crowd. - Robben Ford was soloing. - Bob Berg raised his mic for Wynton. - Ford wound up his solo and gestures to Wynton. - Wynton solos - Miles hears him, perks up, and looks around. - Miles directs the rhythmn section to play less and less until they eventually stop. - Wynton eventually stops playing, as it's just him at this point, raises his hands, shrugs his shoulders and walks off stage.
I was there and recorded the whole episode on my walkman -- then I heard Wynton explain his reason at a Q & A in Victoria years later...funny moment in jazz history ;)
In a Miles Davis documentary his daughter said: “Daddy listened to classical music at home.” It seems this fact is conspicuously left out. Sketches of Spain is based on classical music.
I know Wynton. My dad was a musician and Wynton lived across the street from us. I guess you have to be around him out of his element. He's a totally different person. I'd see him coming back from Central Park with his kids. He'd have my doorman buzz me and We'd go play ball together in the projects a few blocks from our apartments. Knew Miles too. He could've blew up on me when I first met him. Especially in that circumstance. But no, he invited me and my 2 friends to sit down. The rest of this story, I'll save in case I write a book.
Miles was a kind of an enigma. But this "Miles/Wynton rivalry” was created and magnified by the media. They are both good in their own individual rights. I guess the music record companies were implicitly promoting a kind of hype and ipso facto promoting sales of the incumbent jazz music at the given time. Both are great Trumpeters. That's my take Charlie Brown😂. Theo Kgapola(Benoni, S A)
Thank you!! As most of these videos nowadays have to have something controversial to get you to click on it. This is more of a "mile's bad habits" video. Very little to do with a so-called "feud".
@@GAK1atatt I don't ever find Wynton uninteresting when he's play the New Orleans stuff. About Miles: change "one's to 'once'. Look, Miles was a natural genius; as a trumpet player, I'm still learning from him and am inspired by his greatness. I haven't heard all of his late period recordings, but what I have heard doesn't hold my interest. Of course it's blasphemy in the jazz world to say anything negative about 'Miles' so I'll probably get slammed for it. Okay, that said, I can see that Wynton's accomplishments are over-rated by many, but the man deserves huge credit for bringing the New Orleans jazz repertoire to those who may not have heard it.
@@MrRezillo As a jazz bassist I have aways modeled my playing on 3 bassists that were kingpins in Mile's groups -Paul Chambers, Ron Carter (who I've studied with) and Dave Holland. Due the periods and the repertoires of each, Ron and Paul are to me the deepest, Ron being a more refined bassist and both Ron's and Paul's beats drives the band with an insistence no one else matched. The tunes of those eras are pop, broadway and show tunes, with chord movement that fusion lacks, which provides for so much more material for every instrument, infinitely more opportunities to develop. The chord movement and thus the bass line is inherently melodic, the accompaniment's guide tones are melodic, and, of course great melodies that everyone knew in the 40s, 50s and 60s. And Miles had the formula that worked. Check out Love For Sale recorded in 59 but released much later. The first 3 choruses are mostly 2 beat with a 4/4 bridge. where Miles plays and continually reshapes the melody with the Harmon mute with great beauty. The the 4/4 walking time, the bebop or hard bop, is provided by the sax(es) and piano for contrast. Likewise the same or similar treatments of most other standards. What a great formula! The listener gets it all, Miles' melodic solos and then the hard bob, usually taken out (re-capped) again in 2 by Miles. And both bassists are melodic genius's when accompanying. Of course they're paired with the great drummers, Cobb, Jones and Williams. Holy F^ck! Ron was perfect for the sophisticated repertoire of the 60's with tunes by Shorter, Hancock and Williams. Chambers was a bebopper and great soloist. Listen, I get it about early Miles vs late Miles. But if you listen carefully, Miles was always Miles, a master of melody who could build lines that fit each idiom. IMHO the 50s Gil Evans period was a pinnacle of melodic playing - Porgy and Bess, Miles Ahead, Birth of the Cool , all a break from bebop. Porgy and Bess is Gershwin's finest work and the Evans/Davis recordings are supremely lyrical. The rhythm sections really defined the eras and they were Miles's choices - sheer genius.
In the 1980s when I was first starting to listen to jazz, it was Wynton Marsalis more than anyone else who guided me in the direction of Miles, Ellington, Monk, and Coletrane. He did so in interviews and on stage at live performances. I also got into several of his early albums and some live recordings, and they stand up well nearly 40 years later. I’m a great fan of the music that Miles made and consider him one of the greatest creative artists of the 20th century. For the little that it’s worth, my real interest is in the music that they have created and shared with us. The personality conflicts and purported beefs are way down on my list of concerns. But to each his own.
Yes Wynton denied tge Art Ensemble of Chicago the ability to play Lincoln Center Jazz . Cause he said they weren't jazz. . If that's not an indictment of Wynton I don't know what is
@@jedtulman46 Don't forget that Lester also threw Wynton off the bandstand at Sweet Basil when Wynton tried to sit in. In the retelling I'm aware of, Lester used the word "boy" when that happened.
If I was only allowed to listen to musicians who never got in a fight, did drugs, or weren't mentally OK all the time, that would be a sad ass existence. Some of the greatest art ever made was made by alcoholics, pimps, whores, junkies, thieves, and otherwise terrible people.
A musician does not have to be a ejore, junkie, or whatever All that stuff just enhances the myth of the "struggling artist who is one step away from blah blah blah.When someone is playing their music, or doing their art, etc. they are a musician, artist, whatever When they're not, they are just a "regular " human being.A musician who becomes am addicted puts drugs before their music.Then thay become a phoney Thrn they are a junkie who plays music.
Can't denny that tough times make great artists, you know when they really express their feelings and don't just "make good music" Swords are made by beatings, diamonds are made by pressure (or sum like that)
Give me Wynton anytime. I often wonder what Miles was thinking moving from the Jazzy Miles to Tutu. Tutu to me sounds like hard rock. Wynton to me is a straight talking, no nonsense, jazz professor.
Revealing story how Mile's growing up in illinois had parents who were successful and educated... his dad a dentist and his mom a music teacher. Miles also had good music teachers. I can understand Miles being from an older generation than Wynton (miles was born a decade before WW2?!) - not wanting to be concerned with Wynton - who he might have looked like any other of thousands of college trumpet music majors - just not having anything of interest to Miles and resenting that he should take interest. But Wynton went on to be more than just one of thousands of just a trumpet music major and he deserves credit for being an educator. Unlike so many early jazz musicians post WW2 who used drugs (and other eras), Wynton didn't do drugs and didn't mess up his head. He's like the reliable guy/yeoman who shows up for work everyday reliably. He kept the straight and narrow path in life. He loved and represented respectfully and soberly the rich new Orleans jazz that he grew up with. His role in life didn't have to be being an innovator or creator of something new. Doc Severinson wasn't an innovator any more than Wynton was either. So would someone say, well Doc is good technically but doesn’t have his own style or create anything? No, because he was a sober musician band leader and entertainer. Wikipedia "Davis supported his heroin habit by playing music and by living the life of a hustler, exploiting prostitutes, and receiving money from friends. By 1953, his addiction began to impair his playing." He said, "I lost my sense of discipline and control in my life." But he later regained control over his life from heroin and beat his addiction but later used cocaine heavily. Interesting how much Miles suffered in his last years due to various health problems. Also how one of his sons, Gregory, wrote a book on the Jeckle and Hyde dark side of Miles. But not a great idea and was disrespectful and bit arrogant for Wynton to barge on stage at a concert while Miles and group were playing.
Man...this is the very first time that I heard Miles Davis for any extended period of time. When I first heard of him was a time when I came across a recording he released titled Portia....That one instrumental is so majestically beautiful that that I placed it on my Crem de la Creme music playlist; it's a masterpiece. After I finally purchased the whole "Tutu" CD that it was on, I was absolutely blown away with it. Another masterpiece from that same CD gives me goosebumps. It's titled Backyard Ritual. Look them up. Well, I could say more, but this will do. Rest on Power Mr. Davis....Thank you for sharing your incredible talents with the world.
I could believe that he despised Wynton, because to be honest, I never liked this guy that much. He was a good jazz musician but he was so arrogant and snooty. He thought he knew everything, even back when he was young. He was too conservative for me.
Miles was the greatest of all time. He was the Picasso of music. He led a very complex life. Everyone played with Miles at one time or another. These were the great and legendary musicians. It's not the same today
Miles knew that music was always changing. He knew that you couldn't box it in or defined it. Winton was the decoder for the white man. A educator who became popular for that. Which it became the go-to guy explaining jazz.
"Winton was the decoder for the white man". By your comment, all of cyberspace realize you have not an iota of understanding of what art is and what art can be.
I don’t know about hate, but he walked out during a C.T. gig and that didn’t sit well. To stay on topic, Wynton is proficient but I find boring. Miles put out jazz. Wynton is better at Christmas albums.
Miles is Miles.. a legend.. that being said I think Wynton is fantastic player.. enjoy listening both jazz & classical .. different strokes for different folks..
@@jazzman642 yes, great jazz musicians have followers that adopt or make use of their ideas. Wynton sets impossible technical hurdles but actually has nothing new to say or follow.
I’m sorry but this sensationalized click bait clearly shows how little you really know about his music and and the importance of his contributions to jazz. Too bad. All the bad shit just doesn’t matter when you hear his beautiful tone that sings with the very best vocalists of all time. You hear anyone with a Harmon mute and you can’t help but think “Miles”. Marsalis can’t hold Miles’ mouthpiece. Not in the same league and never will be. The way Miles played the melodies is sublime, unique and cannot be copied and I’ve heard damn near everyone who’s tried, like NAT Adderly, while coming close never changed his style, while Miles moved on. How? His genius is in the bands he had, Birth of The Cool, works with Gil Evans, the First Great Quintet, the Second Great Quintet, The Fusion bands-In a Silent Way, the Marcus Miller collaborations. Each one marking a major era in jazz. Wynton is staid, preferring to live in the past, a museum curator of bygone music. Good for him but the comparison breaks down without that something extra. His music just doesn’t move me except to get up and choose something else.
Ok with you ... great tone... But Chet also had a great tone ! And how about Harry Sweet Edison, Clark Terry, Clifford Brown, Woody Shaw, Art Farmer, Tom Harrell, Thad Jones... All these guys were great ! Not as "smart" as Miles, ok... Miles just knew hos to "use" the great talent of his musicians... Like a good director gets the best of his actors... Stop saying he's a genius and certainly NOT one of the best musicians that ever lived... Such bull...t !!!!
@@LaurentBATAILLE-ip1gq There was the same opportunity for each era in jazz but Miles was the only one that took it and changed the music 7 times in his lifetime. The others either died young or stuck with what they knew or were too late to the scene (not their fault, just born too late).
@ « changed the music ? » 😂 He just listened to Parker, Dizzy Then to Coltrane, Bill Evans Then to Gil Evans Then he listened to James Brown And Then to Jimi Hendrix… and so on Without the musicians AROUND him, he would have done nothing… Sorry man, you got it wrong ! Jack DeJohnette himself told me : when recording Bitches Brew, we were trying to emulate James Brown’s music !!! Can you name James’s 3 drummers without looking on Wikipedia ? If yes, ok, if not, continue to venerate God Miles… I’m much more educated and smart than that 🎵
@@LaurentBATAILLE-ip1gq Who picked Jack to be in the band? Miles, right? There's no conflict here. BTW- he didn't just "listen" with those you listed he hired them or collaborated with them. And Miles PLAYED with Parker, couldn't do what Dizzy could do, moved on with what he COULD do, which was to play melody like no one else. In the process he collaborated with Gil Evans- Birth of the Cool, Miles Ahead, Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain, (all landmark albums) all while working with the Chambers, Philly Joe/Jimmy Cobb, Evans/Garland/Kelly w/ Coltrane and Cannonball under his name, AKA 1st Great Quintet, etc. The rest I've listed before. This isn't venerating Miles, just stating facts. Kind of Blue is still the best selling jazz album of all time. No one else did that and it's not an accident.
I get it, I don’t think Miles was jealous, I think that Wynton had a lot of learn, Wynton came up in a different time, only now in 2024 is Wynton developed the maturity of Miles. I got an arrogant vibe from Wynton more an academic approach.
No one has the right to just walk onto another artists stage uninvited, regardless of stature. And especially in concert. Not to mention Wynton's didn't fit in stylistically with what Miles was doing. An example of a lack of self awareness mixed with hubris.
This is Clickbait. That being said, I don’t think Miles really cared about Wynton. He was annoyed at the fact that the studio head had put Wynton up to going on stage during Miles’ performance. If Wynton had acted with responsibility, he would’ve totally ignored that request and at least had the decency to go and ask Miles if it was okay for him to come up during his Set-and if Miles says no, you don’t go up there Wynton. Miles is completely blameless. Wynton is deferring his responsibility to the studio head who put him up to going up there-this is just another case of record studios trying to manipulate artists. It’s unfair for Miles to be judged by what happened. It shows insecurity and immaturity by Wynton to have followed the suggestions. .
Like Miles said, Wynton is a good trumpet player. No disrespect to Wynton for all the work he's put into jazz and music education and preservation of the history but, as far as artistic notoriety... the music industry made Wynton. Wynton was used to sell magazines, records and to milk a genre that many thought was as good as dead. IMO, he was too headstrong to notice it. It's fine to want to please your father but eventually you need to find a way to be your own man. Essentially, jazz is a renegade artform, an expression of the human soul breaking free from convention and running the risk of self-destruction. Wynton seems to have steered clear of that. This, IMO, is essentially why the two could not share the same stage. Somebody should have explained that to Wynton but they treated him like a "golden child". Why his father didn't tell him what time it was... I don't know. Maybe he thought he should find out on his own. I could respect that.
Wynton came up in a different time. You cannot put a 40s soul in a 70s child. Wynton did what he needed to do! He saved jazz from the fake, watered down, "smooth jazz" of the imposters AND the sellouts who started playing rock to sell more records. Miles was a consumate genius and Wynton is a genius in his own right. Are either of the the best all time trumpeter? Consider, Dizzy Gillespie, Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, Clark Terry, Lee Morgan...just sayin'
"Essentially, jazz is a renegade artform, an expression of the human soul breaking free from convention and running the risk of self-destruction" Well that sentence is ridiculously false. It's heavily based on convention, like literally every musical idiom. The self-destructive/renegade part is also racist-style puff-piece cliche.
"they treated him like a "golden child" "He was a "golden child" of jazz and now he's evolved into a "golden man" of jazz. He is an ambassador of a distinctly and uniquely american art form.
"Who could earn the intense dislike of one of Jazz's biggest legends..??" Clifford Brown Eric Dolphy Thelonious Monk Chet Baker Ornette Coleman Oscar Peterson Herb Ellis Jaki Byard Booker Little Ruby Braff Just about anybody tbh...😆
Like what ya like,but marsalis is clearly an asshole,that the establishment loves. And he,s not even as good as Lee Morgan, or Hugh Masakela,to name two.
Read Herbie Hancock’s autobiography. He has a whole chapter on Marsalis titled sarcastically, “The Man Who Would Save Jazz.” It confirmed everything I thought about him. Miles is a one of a kind artistic genius (not a over-hyped, football coach-type “genius”). His legacy will live on just as Beethoven’s has. Marsalis is a pedestrian professional who wanted to turn jazz into a calcified museum for the uninitiated. He’s never played a note worth remembering or that stirred the soul.
Miles Davis direcionou a música Instrumental para o futuro seu último CD Doo Bop é considerado pelos críticos uma evolução que irá até o ano 3.000. Enquanto W.Marsalis direcionou a música Instrumental ao passado 1900. Então como Trompetista eu sou fã do trabalho e legado de Miles Davis que segundo especialistas de Jazz na Inglaterra o consideraram: O Maior Músico de Jazz do século XX e XXI. Enquanto Marsalis continua: FOR BACK.
Everyone has their place, no one compares to Miles in succesful innovation. Critics in art very very rightly point to artists whose style significantly changed the direction of their art form and created new path-ways that others followed. Picasso - the great - once said " we all came out of Cezanne ... "
The acid test for Wynton's level of originality, outside his technical brilliance, is whether he has inspired any followers. for me, his improvisation always sounds like a virtuoso and very swinging pastiche of others ideas. Am I wrong?
With all respect to Wynton, I think he is more of a conformist, largely trying to honor his father (nothing wrong with that). I've owned some of Wynton's recordings and wanted very much to mine something of deep personal value, or just plain fun, from them. Largely I came away disappointed. Always well arranged, well recorded and well presented but I never really felt that Wynton was putting who he was as a modern man, in modern times on the record. Nobody's really the one and only at anything except being one's self and what I feel I learn about Wynton from his music is that he's his father's son.
I sided with, and still do, side with Miles. 1) I was never a big fan of Wynton's playing, although I liked his mentoring young musicians throughout the years, such as Roy Hargrove, Christian McBride, etc. 2) Wynton's lack of willingness to embrace other genres (Yes, jazz does NOT exist in a vaccum! Wynton is now coming around, starting to embrace 1960s jazz!). 3) Wynton dismissing artists in other genres. That appearance of Aretha Franklin at Lincoln Center, some time back (2015) was truly bothersome; he said, right in front of her, "I was surprised she knew all the cats!" Come on, dude! She was on labels (Columbia and Atlantic), which had all the cats (Miles, Coltrane, Ray Charles, MJQ, Milt Jackson, etc). And her pioneering, and sangin' at LC many times well before you, is probably the reason you got that LC gig, in the first place!
Hmmmm I don't believe Miles Davis hated anyone, but he had his opinions and feelings. I was blessed to have met them both, Miles was very gracious and even signed an album for me in 1987. Wynton, also very gracious and humble. But Wynton's playing in the beginning owed a debt to Miles' 1960's style of playing, and Miles knew it. But when Wynton first came on the scene, he said some unkind things about Miles and the things Miles was playing at the time, and It hurt Miles, I'm sure, especially since Wynton had taken a lot from his earlier style. And then of course, the Wynton joining Miles on stage incident was not a kind gesture or decision. I don't think it was entirely Wynton's idea to do that, I think he was told or even pressured into doing so. But I am sure Miles Davis did not hate or resent Wynton Marsalis in any way.
Yeah I don’t perceive any of his statements on Wynton as personal, Miles was there with Bird, Dizzy and all the greats, but always had a what’s next mindset, he’s not going to be easily impressed by someone new coming along copying those old styles. He just spoke his mind, called things as he saw them.
As good as Miles and many others were/are, it is extraordinary that any jazz musician would have such a sense of self-importance in the music industry considering how few people actually like or listen to jazz or have any high regard for it
Your reference to 'the music industry' as opposed to music as an art form gives the context to your comment. The industry is always about selling something, and that tends to work in favour of the lowest common denominator: "Everyone understands Mickey Mouse." The art form is about other things, i.e. creating beauty and pushing the boundaries beyond what came before. And if perception is indeed reality, then holding oneself and one's work in high regard is pretty much a prerequisite for creating art; if you don't believe in the artistic validity of what your'e doing, why bother rolling that stone uphill in the first place?
There is something wrong here. Names of the interviewed are not right in most cases. And the spoken commentary is not aligned with images, also showing wrong images. Is anything in this video even true? I am close to think this is fake news.... At least this is a really poor edited documentary. Step up!
Actually Wynton Marsalis is closer in playing style to Miles Davis and sounded more like Miles than even Wallace Roney. You can hear that on Wynton’s numerous records, from his debut album, then; “Blues Alley”; “J Mood” and “Black Codes” Wynton’s has been playing in the Miles Davis aesthetic, more convincingly than in the Louis Armstrong’s style. That’s part of tension.
@@Kevingdavy Wallace is a Miles stylist! Wynton was played many trumpet 🎺 recordings and he stopped at Clifford Brown! I have the beginning and end if Clifford Brown record and he sounds like wynton with better tone lol. Actually there is no precedent for miles who changed the sound of jazz trumpet more woody. Actually in. The Lineage from Buddy Bolden Miles is not mentioned but the lineage was weakened by 3 trumpet 🎺 players in the 70s who made some coins backing AWB and EWF in the studio. I won't mention them! Wynton would have been 10 times BETTER! Wynton is bad though. You can't compare the great innovators and giants who created paved the way to Jazz players after 1980
No way in hell is he wonton close in any form or fashion close to miles style in any form……he is arrogant and conceded in some form so was miles but miles could and would back it up all the way take a good listen to bitches brew all the way to nights in tansinia to time after time Marsalis doesn’t stand a chance ask Quincy he will tell you but too late he has passed on oh well trust and believe miles was not to be taken lightly ask Columbia records
@Kevingdavy I don't think think Wynton and Miles were alike! Miles came up through mentorship of Clarke Terry, subbed for Bird and Diz and never heard the word Jazz till he came to NYC! Wynton grew up in isolation okayed funk smoked weed then git turned on to jazz trumpet 🎺 a la Clifford Brown and became a Jazz snob. New Orleans was on the down. I bought Wynton and branfords albums in the early 80s . Trumpet lineage was weakened by 3 players who okayed in the studio with EWF, AWB, etc I won't say their names. Miles tore up the 80s playing Funky. I was a staunch Freddie Hubbard Man. Wynton doesn't want to be a prototype because we tend to take them for granted lol
@@FCntertainr indeed Wynton’s style of jazz trumpet on his debut album, then Blues Alley and J Mood, also Black Codes of the Underground, are very influenced by Miles Davis, in tone, phrasing and feel. That’s a great compliment to Miles. We could say that Wynton is influenced by Miles, Clifford Brown and Freddie Hubbard, which are dominant influences for most jazz trumpeters. Wynton playing in Japan with Santana also sounds a lot like Miles. I think they both knew that there was this passing of the torch going on and manipulated by the records companies and music industry.
when i speak of my birth place, i always mention Chuck Berry and Miles Davis ... , that was Saint Louis , Mo.. so, i " expand " that a little. i also include Mark Twain and President Grant. I am proud of all of these people.
While I didn't care for Miles newer stuff, I think he was polite and correct in his assessment of Wynton. He plays like an A-student but there is nothing original about his playing. You don't need to pioneer a new genre to be different. You could distinguish your self by developing a musical personality (not clothes or showmanship). Clifford Brown had it, so did Charlie Shavers, but not Wynton IMO.
I think the music industry createad this so called riff. Some people thought that it was some sort of rival between Miles and Wynton . In honesty Miles admire Wynton but he did not like how CBS records and the vice pressident of CBS jazz..Dr. George Butler was always trying to pair them up. Plus Miles was not feeling what Wynton was doing musically. As Miles said in several interviews that was the past style of music or as he said boring shit. Miles was digging the style of Wallace Roney..his swagger as Miles would often speak about that turn Miles on. He passed his trumpet to Wallace which.many people thought that was him turning his noise up to Wynton. He dug Branford ...very interesting.
The AI (artificial intelligence) narration needs to be tweaked. The constant mispronunciation of East St. Louis coupled with other notable errors are red flags a robot is doing the narration...or so it appears. Still, it's a pretty good look into the early developments of a legend. imho
Ok, I know just a little bout this. Davis respected the Marsalis clan, but considered them too regimented in their approach. He felt they were trying to define jazz by wrapping it up in a tight little set of definitions, at a moment when he himself was mostly done with swing and bebop and ‘cool’ and all the other standard jazz forms that he had pioneered and was exploring the fusion of his modal approach with rock and pop. He considered what he was doing to be jazz, while the Marsalis clan considered it to be something else. Something too far outside the traditions of acoustic jazz. Hence one of his early meetings with Wynton after Wynton had become something of a jazz superstar: “here come the police”.
Miles Davis was an abusive A hole. I have this information from several older men who were musicians in New York and knew him personally. They’re gone now too but their stories are clear. A great musician. A bully, a person not concerned about using his power to get his way or worried about hurting people who were in his way. Word is Frank Sinatra was a similar character. It’s really sad that these people get turned into heroes in every way when all they really were was good at music. It’s OK to appreciate Miles Davis’s music but also think he was a dick. But if you do, there’s very little chance you’re going to love it like it’s God‘s gift to earth. You’re gonna know how selfish he was and even his best songs are just gonna seem a little bit less awesome
i like your comment " a genius and also a " dick " . " i do not know why people want to confuse geniuses with being average " nice " or even " good " people. in contrast , i think the average person " nice " person is in no way good at all. most nice people are just sly a**holes. believe it.
I love them both ,however I lean more towards Miles Davis ,but the Marsalis album Black Codes is a true classic .Miles is just in another league in my opinion .👍🏿
Mile's did not announce tunes in the 40s. When 🐦 Bird and. Dizzy did 2and 1½hr sets with long breaks half hr, 45 min to check out radio broadcasts and other clubs Miles played 45 min then 15 minutes break for restroom the format used after that. He never turned his back on audiences he Conducted the band like in classical orchestras. Sad that musicians input are not sought for interviews after an artist has gone
Miles said, about Wynton...." he's precise". Wow, what a scathing criticism. Miles changed the sound of trumpet, but always seemed sloppy. He always cracks notes.
This presentation is bizarre. Photos don't sync. For example: At nine years of age which was accompanied by a photo of Miles at maybe in his late teens or twenties.
It's hard to believe he had sickle cell disease and completely and thoroughly abused his body, his whole life, and still lived to be 65. Was skinny as a rail and diabetic. There was no shortage of women who tried to help him, just as women do.
Poor Chas, that he just couldn't get it. But Mingus was of his own time, and wasn't reaching into the future like Davis did. 'proof' of this is the huge net that the musicians who played with / cut new teeth under Miles and went on to invent their own. The list is long ... .. Chick Corea, Wayne Shorter, John McLaughlin, Herbie Hancock . . . . Mingus' reach into the future from his time to now *through the musicians who kept the music going then, and keep the music going now* is not recognizable.
@brucescott4261 I t v imk that Mingus was right... to an extent.Miles tried different things that other musicians didn't try.Some worked, some didn't.When all is said and done, who cares?
I had a friend that was a fantastic jazz virtuoso. Sometimes on the weekends a trumpet player friend of his would get up and play with him and throw in a few trumpet solos. He was good, but played too “military style”. It wasn’t a diss, it was true. I think this relates
How often has Manchester City benefitted from referee decisions, that is, compared to their fellow competitors. Everton vs Rodri hand, Liverpool vs Doku chest stamp on Macca, etc. Because they've even cheated Fairplay rules and are still adamant that they are innocent and not showing any remorse, I don't even recognize their achievements since 2014.
Why is it necessary to overlay phony dust and streaks to portray authenticity and historic believability? Miles would shake his head for at least this aspect I suspect.
I read Miles' autobiography and he stated that one of the reasons he wasn't fond of Wynton was his openly public negative criticism of his brother, Branford. He found it deeply disrespectful.
I've never met anyone that ever described being moved, in love with, or surprised or upset or angry or sad or whatever from listening to Marsalis, not naming him as a favourite musician or horn player. He somehow managed the trick of not transmitting the slightest emotion ever through his instrument. He was also insufferably wound up, precious, full of his own talent, and just plain boring. I have been delighted by other musicians that weren't 'emotional' players or writers, and who were very technique orientated but who were fascinating and moving and exciting because of this sheer technical virtuosity, WM doesn't even succeed on this front. I've seen so many Jazz musicians over the years, and have never had bad words or feelings towards any of them, whether I enjoyed their music much or not, but somehow Marsalis managed to personify every single possible irritating and infuriating quality a professional musician could have, all rolled into one person. I'm not saying he was evil, an a-hole, or anything else negative in that way, that's none of my business. I am saying that his music and comportment have always been incredibly unappealing for someone who gained so much fame and success. I did have the unfortunate opportunity to meet him and his band when they played the Rising Sun in Montreal in the '80s, you could tell his band was pretty miserable and that their leader sucked the joy from everything. Branford was pretty chill and cool, on the other hand, and while far from a favorite of mine, at least played with some passion and adventurousness.
As a listener, the best musicians are the ones who give you the best listening pleasure. As far as trumpet players are concerned, the ones I enjoyed most were Clifford Brown and Blue Mitchell simply on the basis of their tonal quality, swing and melodic content. Lester Young's philosophy was 'does it tell a story'. Both those great players did to me.
Marsalis had the balls to interrupt a gig in Europe and walk up on stage and tell Miles that he wanted to play with him right there. Bad idea. Miles advised Marsalis to leave. He also doesnt have thecreative chops to be a great jazz player so he invents gigs like the big band schtick at Juliard. He is technically pretty good but thats it
Both jazzicians had gotten scholarships to New York's Juilliard School of Music; both quitted, reportedly, within one year of - - - of classical tutelage, not Jazz - hence their premature departure, and some.😢😮😅.
That's straight, BS. You might not like Wynton Marsalis, but you can't ever say Wynton does not have creative chops to be a jazz musician. Wynton is a virtuoso.
It would seem that the prince estate and Netflix. Are having the same challenges as Miles Davis estate. Although there was a good movie called “Miles Ahead“ starring Don Cheadle as well as co-written by Don Cheadle. I wonder if they’ll ever make the Marvin Gaye bio pic. Or do a great documentary on Marvin Gaye. Although I doubt it. Hopefully Stevie Wonder can figure out a way to do a great documentary on himself. Before he passes away.
Miles saying “Wynton is a good trumpet player but he doesn’t have anything extra” is Miles calling it like Miles does. That’s not “hating” or “detesting” anybody. It’s his unvarnished opinion. Wynton ripped on Miles too, big time. That’s his prerogative. Miles Davis changed the entire face of jazz music. More than once. Recorded material and live performances that spanned decades. Entire eras. Wynton Marsalis is a technically accomplished musician, no question. What’s your favorite Wynton Marsalis composition? 😎
Come on, you couldn't record this with your own voice? Why continue to perpetuate this AI mess? If you're going to use AI, at least say you're using AI...
Wynton's playing, plenty good, is old-fashioned, not much more modern than Louis Armstrong's. He has tone and control but never plays "outside," seldom ventures far from the melody and predictable variations on the theme. FAR from Miles's approach. Easy to see why he didn't move Miles.
Contrary to what a select group of jazz fans and 'the critics' may say, Miles Davis is over-rated and is largely forgotten most people today. As for Wynton Marsalis, I heard him when he first appeared, and I said at the time that he had no 'stage presence' but was a very capable musician. I still much prefer the likes of Harry James, Bunny Berigan, Billy Butterfield, and Joe Graves.
I really don’t like the use of the word hate in any of these post. Too strong of an emotion and I don’t think it’s ever appropriate to use or lead with. The reality of it all is we at times really don’t like this person or that person and that’s it! Stop using this word to get people’s attention!
Alcohol drugs is going to shipwreck your mind and soul .That police encounter was bad enough. I like both trumpeters ,miles had issues with demons, when you into drugs and booze it interferes with love and women.Conflicts was part of his life.Heroin back then now worst stuff to do you in . leave it all alone and you will do better in life. Many people loved Miles .I preferred his Coltrane period. Milestones etc RIP
miles was such a genius and even his comment about " black and white " musicians is spot on. " white musicians tend to lag behind the beat, ... i don't know why. " a genius can see what is right in front of their eyes and accurately describe it - no more no less.
Miles knew Wynton was coming up and on his way. Wynton wasn't just a sure up and coming trumpet player. He knew that young man was going to break through and be a great player.
Just don’t walk on and into another musician’s gig uninvited. Miles told him to ‘F O’ and quite rightly. He may have even said ‘get your fat face of my stage’ as I would have, for example.
I hadn't planned to comment, but I seriously need to explain the explainable. Miles and wynton had 2 different roles to play in historical context. Miles' role was to create. Wynton's role is to preserve everything created before him. Wynton's role is also that of a reviver of that that came before him. Miles was brilliant and Wynton is brilliant. If not for wynton marcellus, jazz would have been exploited and destroyed. Because African Americans created jazz, the white powers that be ,wanted and want to destroy the music. And also the brilliance and genuis of the musicians. Wynton was groomed and educated by his father to do something that otherwise wouldn't be done. Wynton took on the responsibility of permanently infusing jazz into the American culture, thereby securing jazz as the only culturally dignified music created in America. The musicians taken under wynton's wing have become genius composers and performers. The Arabic word "mujeddid" means one who revives and renews. I call wynton the mujeddid of jazz. Because that's the role that he plays. Everything wynton does in music is an instruction to his students and followers of his works. Wynton brought into jazz a philosophy and conceptualization that is irrefutable. In fact he has done that for all genres of music created by African Americans, especially blues. There's much to say about miles and wynton, but I implore that whoever reads my comments to research the chronological life and progressions of these 2 great musicians. I've had the honor and privilege of meeting and conversating with wynton privately in his dressing room before he was nationally known and recognized worldwide. But I didn't have that honor with miles, even though I have studied miles since I was a child in the middle 1950s around 5 yrs old. Miles, Dizzy, Bird, trane and all the others and my uncle trumpet player, inspired me to aspire since that young age to be a jazz musician. In 1st grade we were given the choice of string instruments, I chose bass and I didn't want the bow that came with it 😅. I wanted to play jazz. In my teens I started playing saxophone. And played trumpet and baritone horn in grade school and college. All along in my teens, I played night clubs in jazz and r&b. So I'm not just breathing into the wind with these comments and commentary. By the way, I'm 72yrs old as I write these comments. And friends with some greats. Thanks for reading.
People are not allowed to be people and express their life experiences! "Just shut up and Play" comes to mind! This was more about the troubles of a great composer than it was about the musical legacies! Black people are always under the most server microscope and will/can only be accepted when living and revealing a certain way of life. And who has passed this test? Absolutely no one!
I think the Marsalis stuff especially the clickbait headline is exaggerated. That said, the idea of insinuating yourself on a Miles set!! What was Marsalis thinking. Only Bird could have done without causing offense. A parallel tale. Lee Konitz, by then a grand legend of improvised music, was initially wary, following a proposal, of playing with Brad Mehldau, the next big piano sensation. Konitz never liked showboating. He was notoriously fussy about pianists. But Mehldau proved sensitive to the older statesman’s way of playing. They recorded two lovely albums (with Haden and Motian). Miles hated showboating. Again, for Miles, only Bird could showboat and get away with it. And Bird rarely showed off. Rather he had a sense of humour that he could effortlessly convey musically. I’m not a great fan of virtuosic pomp.
You have to give Bird a lot of credit for seeing the potential of Miles. Davis could barely get thru the heads of Bird's bebop repertoire at the time (Donna Lee comes to mind!), never mind his plodding thru the changes. Bird would have been proud to have seen Davis' career over the next ten years had he lived.
His comments are not from dislike. His comments are spot on. Wynton is a fantastic trumpet player but he is the first “keeper of the flame” that never developed an individual voice or advanced the art form. His efforts to further the art form are limited to making Jazz popular.
He has never brought anything new to jazz. An excellent player though.
@@Jamestown-y9j I think his arregments of classic standards on his first albums were quite groundbreaking. But i don't know if that was Wynton or Jeff Watts.
Thats why they called them purist. Usually purist are the last ones standing...and also gatekeeping, especially if they have the influence like Marsalis.
I agree. Wynton is a brilliant trumpeter as far as technique but is not ground breaking.
BillWarfield. I agree with you totally. Rumor has it that his Brother Branford had the same problem with Wynton. To me. Experimenting with Jazz is Needed. It can be some BORING MUSIC with it.
Many many years ago a great woman singer said to me, "Do you know the most jealous people you'll ever meet are musicians" and sure enough I've found this to be true.
@@victormason6954 not me. I was always in awe of other musicians!
Uh uh.People develop their own "takents" through hard work, not by " divine intervention".
@@michaelroach4219 yes, but they have to be there in the first place
Computer generated. The title is Clickbait. You never heard Miles say that he hated Wynton. The voice is A.I. generated and can be heard on many AI generated videos.
What we do know is, Miles was one of the greatest musical innovators ever. He influenced countless musicians in countless genres. He made the biggest selling jazz record with "Kind Of Blue."
I agree with anyone who says that this "rivalry" is non-existent. Miles just didn't care for Wynton's sound and style. Wynton is a great trumpet player. Wynton is instrumental in paying homage to music history, and teaching us about the musicians that came before us. Wynton is an educator, and a jazz ambassador.
Miles was an artist. Miles blazed new trails in music. Miles was an entrepreneur, a musical visionary.
They are just two different people who bring different styles and approaches to the music.
Wynton Marsalis in my opinion disrespected Miles Davis. Miles Davis paved the way for young black musicians to even be where Wynton even got to be where he was when he got recognized. It's just another one of those things that white people in the business try to turn us as black people against one another. Anybody that's into reading, I recommend that they read Miles Davis Autobiography, it's one of my favorite books. So, y'all check it out. Miles tells the story of any and all the truth. May he RIP. Later ✌️
@RogerHiggins I don't disagree. TBH I have never been all that into Wynton. He is a great player, but his playing lacks personality. He pays great homage to jazz history but hasn't contributed much to the future of music. Miles basically changed the face of jazz and blazed new trails.
And frankly, I just enjoy listening to Miles, can't say the same for Wynton. But that's just my opinion.
@RogerHiggins also, I did read the book, been a while though so maybe I need to read it again. 😅
I've never been a big fan of Wynton either. You just couldn't feel his music. It just didn't reach the soul, as compared to Miles Davis. Miles has classic jazz that will live the test of time. Miles did have some personality issues that were revealed by his late ex-wife, Cicely Tyson. But, who hasn't had a bad marriage?
@@patrickhenry2845 BS! Miles was an evil, brilliantly talented man. Bye.
Wynton is conservative and Miles was liberal. It is the experimental and liberal nature of the early jazz pioneers who created various forms of jazz. Wynton had his chance to create something fundamentally new but the train has left the station.
Best comment here ! 👌
Ok. I,ll go with that. Plus,wynton was put on by the establishment,Miles put himself on.
Actually the "train has left the station" applies to Miles. At the end of his career he was playing a lot of garbage. He'd never admit it but he was trying jump onto the hip hop train smooth jazz train.
I've enjoyed a lot of the things Wynton has done in recent years, going back to the roots of New Orleans jazz, making it sound vibrant and real, without all the doodads, echoplexes or whatever that Miles featured on his later albums.
Thankfully, Ellis had Branford, Jason and Delfeayo.
@@MrRezillo What you're saying doesn't apply to Miles career overall. As far as things stand between the two, there was a more genuine artistic approach Miles Davis had to art itself (not just Jazz), that Wynton was at odds with.
They're both great players in their respective fields. But if you asked whose music garners more clout, it would be Miles Davis. But that doesn't make this a matter of competition, though the media, false cogoscenti, and charlatans of the craft would love to surmise and promote otherwise.
It's very important that we don't lose sight of what's most important here: integrity. At the end of the day, the spirit of what was, what is now and what is to come shouldn't be adulterated to a pointless argument about who did better at this craft and so on.
I await the day humanity awakens from this trivial business....It'll be the year 3000 or after.
No; Miles did not despised Winton. He just was right on his perception that Marsalis doesn't stand as a musical star by his own but by abiding to whatever the musical culture dictates and this is counter Miles' paradigm on what an artist should be.
Yep. Miles was a self made star,the saltines put Wynton on. You can tell Marshall's was an.asshole,criticizing Miles clothes.what a clown.naaa.
Whose to tell me and dictate to me "what an artist should be'. Not Miles or anyone else.
Wynton has his own style and Miles had his own style...As long as they are keeping jazz alive..what's the problem.
I think the problem is that Jazz had always morphed from one style to another as the culture changed. Wynton, in my view, made jazz into more of a museum piece, and started a death spiral which has not in fact kept jazz alive.
Miiles was an innovator . Marsalis was as Miles said "a good /great " trumpeter . Truth.
Wynton was an egotistical twat.
Nobody can take away Miles' greatness'; what he accomplished and the legacy that he left behind. However, when he got older, he wanted to be a "star" and started playing rock! Personally, I'm not particular about rock, so I wasn't sold. Meanwhile, the smooth jazz guys had hijacked real jazz and the jazz practitioners were beginning to starve. Wynton came along and rescued real jazz and reinvigorated its viability. For that he's one of my greatest heroes!
@@muhammadyungai9053 I'm not sure there's really anything one could call "real jazz?" What would make jazz real or not.
Jazz has had such an impact on all music, I find the lines have gotten kinda fuzzy over time.
I'd almost be satisfied stopping with Louie Armstrong's quip about whether it swings or not as a definition.
But really I just listen to what moves me in some way and let the pundits sort the categories out.
this feels like an AI generated vid, aiming in part to throw shade at Wynton and a real shame to see so many jumping on the bandwagon trashing one of the great Trumpeters. I’ll take Lee Morgan over all of ‘em to be honest, but there’s no denying that Miles is the most important jazz trumpeter, period. But why stir up hatred against Wynton, who is a remarkable player and has done so much for Jazz? People need to stop this shit.
Exactly...Wynton is a legend...And has dedicated his life to keeping jazz alive...Leave Wynton out of this.
@@kmjofpdrey
...Did you ever meet Lee Morgan?
I once met someone from East Saint. Louie Illinois.
@@jftalmadge1978lmao- thats what tipped me off...
💡😳✨
It is AI
Well yeah, that incident with that racist white cop left Miles even more bitter towards cops and towards white people in general.
@@skillet6870 ...Miles should have left that white woman alone.
@@skillet6870 how many major influential white musicians did Miles actually engage to play with? Careless statement that doesn’t reflect how he lived. Stop perpetuating that tired myth. Gil Evans Bill Evans etc etc to Mike Stern. Miles did not have to patronize white people or musicians. They got on his gigs because they were the best of what he wanted.
@louisalfred3
Racist white american history -- including the music industry is filled with "careless statements" careless double standards, careless racism and white violent cops who beat Miles outside of Bird Land which led to Miles being quoted as saying during an interview "if someone told me I had an hour to live, I'd spend that hour choking a white man".
Now goadda bed.
Wynton was an establishment crony trying to perpetuate a myth of jazz frozen in time whereas Miles was a artist, continually breaking the barriers down.
Don't tell me---you're white.
I was there in Vancouver in 1986. Here's my memory.
- Miles was standing right in front of the drums, back to the crowd.
- Robben Ford was soloing.
- Bob Berg raised his mic for Wynton.
- Ford wound up his solo and gestures to Wynton.
- Wynton solos - Miles hears him, perks up, and looks around.
- Miles directs the rhythmn section to play less and less until they eventually stop.
- Wynton eventually stops playing, as it's just him at this point, raises his hands, shrugs his shoulders and walks off stage.
3 sides to every story...
I was there and recorded the whole episode on my walkman -- then I heard Wynton explain his reason at a Q & A in Victoria years later...funny moment in jazz history ;)
The Truth!! Thank you!
In a Miles Davis documentary his daughter said: “Daddy listened to classical music at home.” It seems this fact is conspicuously left out. Sketches of Spain is based on classical music.
And your point is? Miles also graduated from Julliard and played the piano as hie second instrument.
@@warrendoris9669 dropped out of Julliard
@@roycedezorzi And your point?
@@rrr1063 That I didn't graduate.
It's flamenco influenced.
Very talented both of them. I met Wynton in person. Had bit of a snobby attitude. Met Miles too. Cool as you can imagine.
That,s about right.😂😂😎😎
I'm with Wynton! Miles started playing rock! Not all good either!
I met him at Lincoln center in NYC years ago! With Victoria Rowell! And they were mad cool!
I know Wynton. My dad was a musician and Wynton lived across the street from us. I guess you have to be around him out of his element. He's a totally different person. I'd see him coming back from Central Park with his kids. He'd have my doorman buzz me and We'd go play ball together in the projects a few blocks from our apartments. Knew Miles too. He could've blew up on me when I first met him. Especially in that circumstance. But no, he invited me and my 2 friends to sit down. The rest of this story, I'll save in case I write a book.
Judith Jamison godson Wynton , she loved him so much.
Miles was a kind of an enigma. But this "Miles/Wynton rivalry” was created and magnified by the media. They are both good in their own individual rights. I guess the music record companies were implicitly promoting a kind of hype and ipso facto promoting sales of the incumbent jazz music at the given time. Both are great Trumpeters. That's my take Charlie Brown😂.
Theo Kgapola(Benoni, S A)
One’s a great improviser, the other an ok educator but uninteresting in a hurry.
Thank you!! As most of these videos nowadays have to have something controversial to get you to click on it. This is more of a "mile's bad habits" video. Very little to do with a so-called "feud".
Agreed
@@GAK1atatt I don't ever find Wynton uninteresting when he's play the New Orleans stuff. About Miles: change "one's to 'once'. Look, Miles was a natural genius; as a trumpet player, I'm still learning from him and am inspired by his greatness.
I haven't heard all of his late period recordings, but what I have heard doesn't hold my interest. Of course it's blasphemy in the jazz world to say anything negative about 'Miles' so I'll probably get slammed for it.
Okay, that said, I can see that Wynton's accomplishments are over-rated by many, but the man deserves huge credit for bringing the New Orleans jazz repertoire to those who may not have heard it.
@@MrRezillo As a jazz bassist I have aways modeled my playing on 3 bassists that were kingpins in Mile's groups -Paul Chambers, Ron Carter (who I've studied with) and Dave Holland. Due the periods and the repertoires of each, Ron and Paul are to me the deepest, Ron being a more refined bassist and both Ron's and Paul's beats drives the band with an insistence no one else matched.
The tunes of those eras are pop, broadway and show tunes, with chord movement that fusion lacks, which provides for so much more material for every instrument, infinitely more opportunities to develop. The chord movement and thus the bass line is inherently melodic, the accompaniment's guide tones are melodic, and, of course great melodies that everyone knew in the 40s, 50s and 60s. And Miles had the formula that worked. Check out Love For Sale recorded in 59 but released much later. The first 3 choruses are mostly 2 beat with a 4/4 bridge. where Miles plays and continually reshapes the melody with the Harmon mute with great beauty. The the 4/4 walking time, the bebop or hard bop, is provided by the sax(es) and piano for contrast. Likewise the same or similar treatments of most other standards. What a great formula! The listener gets it all, Miles' melodic solos and then the hard bob, usually taken out (re-capped) again in 2 by Miles.
And both bassists are melodic genius's when accompanying. Of course they're paired with the great drummers, Cobb, Jones and Williams. Holy F^ck! Ron was perfect for the sophisticated repertoire of the 60's with tunes by Shorter, Hancock and Williams. Chambers was a bebopper and great soloist.
Listen, I get it about early Miles vs late Miles. But if you listen carefully, Miles was always Miles, a master of melody who could build lines that fit each idiom. IMHO the 50s Gil Evans period was a pinnacle of melodic playing - Porgy and Bess, Miles Ahead, Birth of the Cool , all a break from bebop. Porgy and Bess is Gershwin's finest work and the Evans/Davis recordings are supremely lyrical.
The rhythm sections really defined the eras and they were Miles's choices - sheer genius.
Wynton was an idiot for walking on stage with Miles. 😂
Totally wack ass move.
To do so uninvited was very disrespectful.
Agree
In the 1980s when I was first starting to listen to jazz, it was Wynton Marsalis more than anyone else who guided me in the direction of Miles, Ellington, Monk, and Coletrane. He did so in interviews and on stage at live performances. I also got into several of his early albums and some live recordings, and they stand up well nearly 40 years later. I’m a great fan of the music that Miles made and consider him one of the greatest creative artists of the 20th century. For the little that it’s worth, my real interest is in the music that they have created and shared with us. The personality conflicts and purported beefs are way down on my list of concerns. But to each his own.
Miles has more talent in his thumb than wynton has in his whole body
Miles has unlimited miles in music 🎺🎺🎺🎺🎺
And Lester Bowie felt the same way about Wynton, for good reason.
Yes Wynton denied tge Art Ensemble of Chicago the ability to play Lincoln Center Jazz . Cause he said they weren't jazz. .
If that's not an indictment of Wynton I don't know what is
@@jedtulman46 Don't forget that Lester also threw Wynton off the bandstand at Sweet Basil when Wynton tried to sit in. In the retelling I'm aware of, Lester used the word "boy" when that happened.
@@gregbelcamino7239 interesting !
Different styles different upbringing. You cant compare and this is your opinion.
If I was only allowed to listen to musicians who never got in a fight, did drugs, or weren't mentally OK all the time, that would be a sad ass existence.
Some of the greatest art ever made was made by alcoholics, pimps, whores, junkies, thieves, and otherwise terrible people.
ok
A musician does not have to be a ejore, junkie, or whatever All that stuff just enhances the myth of the "struggling artist who is one step away from blah blah blah.When someone is playing their music, or doing their art, etc. they are a musician, artist, whatever When they're not, they are just a "regular " human being.A musician who becomes am addicted puts drugs before their music.Then thay become a phoney Thrn they are a junkie who plays music.
Can't denny that tough times make great artists, you know when they really express their feelings and don't just "make good music"
Swords are made by beatings, diamonds are made by pressure (or sum like that)
@@Christopher.TheGrasshopper it's probably all about an oversensitive right side brain
Other than being blind, Stevie Wonder is pretty well adjusted
Give me Wynton anytime. I often wonder what Miles was thinking moving from the Jazzy Miles to Tutu. Tutu to me sounds like hard rock. Wynton to me is a straight talking, no nonsense, jazz professor.
Revealing story how Mile's growing up in illinois had parents who were successful and educated... his dad a dentist and his mom a music teacher. Miles also had good music teachers.
I can understand Miles being from an older generation than Wynton (miles was born a decade before WW2?!) - not wanting to be concerned with Wynton - who he might have looked like any other of thousands of college trumpet music majors - just not having anything of interest to Miles and resenting that he should take interest.
But Wynton went on to be more than just one of thousands of just a trumpet music major and he deserves credit for being an educator. Unlike so many early jazz musicians post WW2 who used drugs (and other eras), Wynton didn't do drugs and didn't mess up his head. He's like the reliable guy/yeoman who shows up for work everyday reliably. He kept the straight and narrow path in life. He loved and represented respectfully and soberly the rich new Orleans jazz that he grew up with. His role in life didn't have to be being an innovator or creator of something new. Doc Severinson wasn't an innovator any more than Wynton was either. So would someone say, well Doc is good technically but doesn’t have his own style or create anything? No, because he was a sober musician band leader and entertainer.
Wikipedia
"Davis supported his heroin habit by playing music and by living the life of a hustler, exploiting prostitutes, and receiving money from friends. By 1953, his addiction began to impair his playing."
He said, "I lost my sense of discipline and control in my life." But he later regained control over his life from heroin and beat his addiction but later used cocaine heavily.
Interesting how much Miles suffered in his last years due to various health problems. Also how one of his sons, Gregory, wrote a book on the Jeckle and Hyde dark side of Miles.
But not a great idea and was disrespectful and bit arrogant for Wynton to barge on stage at a concert while Miles and group were playing.
Man...this is the very first time that I heard Miles Davis for any extended period of time. When I first heard of him was a time when I came across a recording he released titled Portia....That one instrumental is so majestically beautiful that that I placed it on my Crem de la Creme music playlist; it's a masterpiece. After I finally purchased the whole "Tutu" CD that it was on, I was absolutely blown away with it. Another masterpiece from that same CD gives me goosebumps. It's titled Backyard Ritual. Look them up.
Well, I could say more, but this will do.
Rest on Power Mr. Davis....Thank you for sharing your incredible talents with the world.
I could believe that he despised Wynton, because to be honest, I never liked this guy that much. He was a good jazz musician but he was so arrogant and snooty. He thought he knew everything, even back when he was young. He was too conservative for me.
Enough with the fake film scratches effect-so annoying
plus the background music.. (Miles might have hated that, btw) ;)
In spite of what said, I know the man was a genius. I have listed to his music for decades.
Miles was the greatest of all time. He was the Picasso of music. He led a very complex life. Everyone played with Miles at one time or another. These were the great and legendary musicians. It's not the same today
and these great and legendary musicians are who made Miles great.
Why did you put that photo of Miles after he was beaten by the cops next to Wynton's for the thumbnail pic? Why the f*** would you do that?
thats also not miles mom
Miles knew that music was always changing. He knew that you couldn't box it in or defined it. Winton was the decoder for the white man. A educator who became popular for that. Which it became the go-to guy explaining jazz.
"Winton was the decoder for the white man". By your comment, all of cyberspace realize you have not an iota of understanding of what art is and what art can be.
I don’t know about hate, but he walked out during a C.T. gig and that didn’t sit well. To stay on topic, Wynton is proficient but I find boring. Miles put out jazz. Wynton is better at Christmas albums.
Miles is Miles.. a legend.. that being said I think Wynton is fantastic player.. enjoy listening both jazz & classical .. different strokes for different folks..
@jazzman642 ...Birks outlasted Miles, PERIOD!!!
@@jazzman642 yes, great jazz musicians have followers that adopt or make use of their ideas. Wynton sets impossible technical hurdles but actually has nothing new to say or follow.
@@brucescott4261 But changed music once, in the 1940s with Bird.
Why would you walk onto a stage uninvited during a performance! That is the height of disrespect! Wynton had no right to do that!!!!
The promoter/manager thought it would be a musical coup, and said it would be totally cool. Wrong!
Agreed.
I’m sorry but this sensationalized click bait clearly shows how little you really know about his music and and the importance of his contributions to jazz. Too bad. All the bad shit just doesn’t matter when you hear his beautiful tone that sings with the very best vocalists of all time. You hear anyone with a Harmon mute and you can’t help but think “Miles”. Marsalis can’t hold Miles’ mouthpiece. Not in the same league and never will be. The way Miles played the melodies is sublime, unique and cannot be copied and I’ve heard damn near everyone who’s tried, like NAT Adderly, while coming close never changed his style, while Miles moved on. How? His genius is in the bands he had, Birth of The Cool, works with Gil Evans, the First Great Quintet, the Second Great Quintet, The Fusion bands-In a Silent Way, the Marcus Miller collaborations. Each one marking a major era in jazz. Wynton is staid, preferring to live in the past, a museum curator of bygone music. Good for him but the comparison breaks down without that something extra. His music just doesn’t move me except to get up and choose something else.
Made me really angry to watch this rubbish!
Ok with you ... great tone... But Chet also had a great tone ! And how about Harry Sweet Edison, Clark Terry, Clifford Brown, Woody Shaw, Art Farmer, Tom Harrell, Thad Jones... All these guys were great ! Not as "smart" as Miles, ok... Miles just knew hos to "use" the great talent of his musicians... Like a good director gets the best of his actors... Stop saying he's a genius and certainly NOT one of the best musicians that ever lived... Such bull...t !!!!
@@LaurentBATAILLE-ip1gq There was the same opportunity for each era in jazz but Miles was the only one that took it and changed the music 7 times in his lifetime. The others either died young or stuck with what they knew or were too late to the scene (not their fault, just born too late).
@ « changed the music ? » 😂
He just listened to Parker, Dizzy
Then to Coltrane, Bill Evans
Then to Gil Evans
Then he listened to James Brown
And Then to Jimi Hendrix… and so on
Without the musicians AROUND him, he would have done nothing…
Sorry man, you got it wrong !
Jack DeJohnette himself told me : when recording Bitches Brew, we were trying to emulate James Brown’s music !!! Can you name James’s 3 drummers without looking on Wikipedia ? If yes, ok, if not, continue to venerate God Miles… I’m much more educated and smart than that 🎵
@@LaurentBATAILLE-ip1gq Who picked Jack to be in the band? Miles, right? There's no conflict here. BTW- he didn't just "listen" with those you listed he hired them or collaborated with them.
And Miles PLAYED with Parker, couldn't do what Dizzy could do, moved on with what he COULD do, which was to play melody like no one else. In the process he collaborated with Gil Evans- Birth of the Cool, Miles Ahead, Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain, (all landmark albums) all while working with the Chambers, Philly Joe/Jimmy Cobb, Evans/Garland/Kelly w/ Coltrane and Cannonball under his name, AKA 1st Great Quintet, etc. The rest I've listed before. This isn't venerating Miles, just stating facts. Kind of Blue is still the best selling jazz album of all time. No one else did that and it's not an accident.
I get it, I don’t think Miles was jealous, I think that Wynton had a lot of learn, Wynton came up in a different time, only now in 2024 is Wynton developed the maturity of Miles. I got an arrogant vibe from Wynton more an academic approach.
the background "music" is ruining the video!
Too bad that incident wasn't on tape---it would get millions of views.
No one has the right to just walk onto another artists stage uninvited, regardless of stature. And especially in concert. Not to mention Wynton's didn't fit in stylistically with what Miles was doing. An example of a lack of self awareness mixed with hubris.
This is Clickbait. That being said, I don’t think Miles really cared about Wynton. He was annoyed at the fact that the studio head had put Wynton up to going on stage during Miles’ performance. If Wynton had acted with responsibility, he would’ve totally ignored that request and at least had the decency to go and ask Miles if it was okay for him to come up during his Set-and if Miles says no, you don’t go up there Wynton.
Miles is completely blameless. Wynton is deferring his responsibility to the studio head who put him up to going up there-this is just another case of record studios trying to manipulate artists. It’s unfair for Miles to be judged by what happened. It shows insecurity and immaturity by Wynton to have followed the suggestions. .
Like Miles said, Wynton is a good trumpet player. No disrespect to Wynton for all the work he's put into jazz and music education and preservation of the history but, as far as artistic notoriety... the music industry made Wynton. Wynton was used to sell magazines, records and to milk a genre that many thought was as good as dead. IMO, he was too headstrong to notice it. It's fine to want to please your father but eventually you need to find a way to be your own man. Essentially, jazz is a renegade artform, an expression of the human soul breaking free from convention and running the risk of self-destruction. Wynton seems to have steered clear of that. This, IMO, is essentially why the two could not share the same stage. Somebody should have explained that to Wynton but they treated him like a "golden child". Why his father didn't tell him what time it was... I don't know. Maybe he thought he should find out on his own. I could respect that.
Wynton came up in a different time. You cannot put a 40s soul in a 70s child. Wynton did what he needed to do! He saved jazz from the fake, watered down, "smooth jazz" of the imposters AND the sellouts who started playing rock to sell more records. Miles was a consumate genius and Wynton is a genius in his own right. Are either of the the best all time trumpeter? Consider, Dizzy Gillespie, Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, Clark Terry, Lee Morgan...just sayin'
Louis, the Great, Roy Eldridge, Sweets Edison, Harry James, Don Byrd so many.
"Essentially, jazz is a renegade artform, an expression of the human soul breaking free from convention and running the risk of self-destruction"
Well that sentence is ridiculously false. It's heavily based on convention, like literally every musical idiom. The self-destructive/renegade part is also racist-style puff-piece cliche.
"they treated him like a "golden child" "He was a "golden child" of jazz and now he's evolved into a "golden man" of jazz. He is an ambassador of a distinctly and uniquely american art form.
"Who could earn the intense dislike of one of Jazz's biggest legends..??"
Clifford Brown
Eric Dolphy
Thelonious Monk
Chet Baker
Ornette Coleman
Oscar Peterson
Herb Ellis
Jaki Byard
Booker Little
Ruby Braff
Just about anybody tbh...😆
Miles is my man,but Wyntons skills are impeccable
Like what ya like,but marsalis is clearly an asshole,that the establishment loves. And he,s not even as good as Lee Morgan, or Hugh Masakela,to name two.
Read Herbie Hancock’s autobiography.
He has a whole chapter on Marsalis titled sarcastically, “The Man Who Would Save Jazz.”
It confirmed everything I thought about him.
Miles is a one of a kind artistic genius (not a over-hyped, football coach-type “genius”). His legacy will live on just as Beethoven’s has.
Marsalis is a pedestrian professional who wanted to turn jazz into a calcified museum for the uninitiated. He’s never played a note worth remembering or that stirred the soul.
This is AI B.S. Talked about dwindling record sales. To this Day Miles Davis "Kind Of Blue" is the highest selling Jazz album of all time!
Miles Davis direcionou a música Instrumental para o futuro seu último CD Doo Bop é considerado pelos críticos uma evolução que irá até o ano 3.000.
Enquanto W.Marsalis direcionou a música Instrumental ao passado 1900.
Então como Trompetista eu sou fã do trabalho e legado de Miles Davis que segundo especialistas de Jazz na Inglaterra o consideraram:
O Maior Músico de Jazz do século XX e XXI.
Enquanto Marsalis continua:
FOR BACK.
Wynton is the perfect jazz poster boy for the Reagan era.
Winton is a great technical musician. Maybe the greatest that I have heard. BUT, Miles is a god. Little “G” 😎
Everyone has their place, no one compares to Miles in succesful innovation. Critics in art very very rightly point to artists whose style significantly changed the direction of their art form and created new path-ways that others followed. Picasso - the great - once said " we all came out of Cezanne ... "
You mean a misogynistic god.
It really doesn't matter what he likes, hated, or whatever. He died. Let his music and greatness live on.
The acid test for Wynton's level of originality, outside his technical brilliance, is whether he has inspired any followers. for me, his improvisation always sounds like a virtuoso and very swinging pastiche of others ideas. Am I wrong?
With all respect to Wynton, I think he is more of a conformist, largely trying to honor his father (nothing wrong with that). I've owned some of Wynton's recordings and wanted very much to mine something of deep personal value, or just plain fun, from them. Largely I came away disappointed. Always well arranged, well recorded and well presented but I never really felt that Wynton was putting who he was as a modern man, in modern times on the record.
Nobody's really the one and only at anything except being one's self and what I feel I learn about Wynton from his music is that he's his father's son.
I sided with, and still do, side with Miles. 1) I was never a big fan of Wynton's playing, although I liked his mentoring young musicians throughout the years, such as Roy Hargrove, Christian McBride, etc. 2) Wynton's lack of willingness to embrace other genres (Yes, jazz does NOT exist in a vaccum! Wynton is now coming around, starting to embrace 1960s jazz!). 3) Wynton dismissing artists in other genres. That appearance of Aretha Franklin at Lincoln Center, some time back (2015) was truly bothersome; he said, right in front of her, "I was surprised she knew all the cats!" Come on, dude! She was on labels (Columbia and Atlantic), which had all the cats (Miles, Coltrane, Ray Charles, MJQ, Milt Jackson, etc). And her pioneering, and sangin' at LC many times well before you, is probably the reason you got that LC gig, in the first place!
Hmmmm I don't believe Miles Davis hated anyone, but he had his opinions and feelings. I was blessed to have met them both, Miles was very gracious and even signed an album for me in 1987. Wynton, also very gracious and humble. But Wynton's playing in the beginning owed a debt to Miles' 1960's style of playing, and Miles knew it. But when Wynton first came on the scene, he said some unkind things about Miles and the things Miles was playing at the time, and It hurt Miles, I'm sure, especially since Wynton had taken a lot from his earlier style. And then of course, the Wynton joining Miles on stage incident was not a kind gesture or decision. I don't think it was entirely Wynton's idea to do that, I think he was told or even pressured into doing so. But I am sure Miles Davis did not hate or resent Wynton Marsalis in any way.
Yeah I don’t perceive any of his statements on Wynton as personal, Miles was there with Bird, Dizzy and all the greats, but always had a what’s next mindset, he’s not going to be easily impressed by someone new coming along copying those old styles. He just spoke his mind, called things as he saw them.
As good as Miles and many others were/are, it is extraordinary that any jazz musician would have such a sense of self-importance in the music industry considering how few people actually like or listen to jazz or have any high regard for it
i think you have made an interesting comment . your take caught me by suprise !
Your reference to 'the music industry' as opposed to music as an art form gives the context to your comment. The industry is always about selling something, and that tends to work in favour of the lowest common denominator: "Everyone understands Mickey Mouse." The art form is about other things, i.e. creating beauty and pushing the boundaries beyond what came before. And if perception is indeed reality, then holding oneself and one's work in high regard is pretty much a prerequisite for creating art; if you don't believe in the artistic validity of what your'e doing, why bother rolling that stone uphill in the first place?
There is something wrong here. Names of the interviewed are not right in most cases. And the spoken commentary is not aligned with images, also showing wrong images. Is anything in this video even true? I am close to think this is fake news.... At least this is a really poor edited documentary. Step up!
Actually Wynton Marsalis is closer in playing style to Miles Davis and sounded more like Miles than even Wallace Roney. You can hear that on Wynton’s numerous records, from his debut album, then; “Blues Alley”; “J Mood” and “Black Codes”
Wynton’s has been playing in the Miles Davis aesthetic, more convincingly than in the Louis Armstrong’s style.
That’s part of tension.
@@Kevingdavy Wallace is a Miles stylist! Wynton was played many trumpet 🎺 recordings and he stopped at Clifford Brown! I have the beginning and end if Clifford Brown record and he sounds like wynton with better tone lol. Actually there is no precedent for miles who changed the sound of jazz trumpet more woody. Actually in. The Lineage from Buddy Bolden Miles is not mentioned but the lineage was weakened by 3 trumpet 🎺 players in the 70s who made some coins backing AWB and EWF in the studio. I won't mention them! Wynton would have been 10 times BETTER! Wynton is bad though. You can't compare the great innovators and giants who created paved the way to Jazz players after 1980
No way in hell is he wonton close in any form or fashion close to miles style in any form……he is arrogant and conceded in some form so was miles but miles could and would back it up all the way take a good listen to bitches brew all the way to nights in tansinia to time after time Marsalis doesn’t stand a chance ask Quincy he will tell you but too late he has passed on oh well trust and believe miles was not to be taken lightly ask Columbia records
@@FCntertainr Alas Wynton and Miles were very alike, and therin in the tension. Let's just leave it there.
@Kevingdavy I don't think think Wynton and Miles were alike! Miles came up through mentorship of Clarke Terry, subbed for Bird and Diz and never heard the word Jazz till he came to NYC! Wynton grew up in isolation okayed funk smoked weed then git turned on to jazz trumpet 🎺 a la Clifford Brown and became a Jazz snob. New Orleans was on the down. I bought Wynton and branfords albums in the early 80s . Trumpet lineage was weakened by 3 players who okayed in the studio with EWF, AWB, etc I won't say their names. Miles tore up the 80s playing Funky. I was a staunch Freddie Hubbard Man. Wynton doesn't want to be a prototype because we tend to take them for granted lol
@@FCntertainr indeed Wynton’s style of jazz trumpet on his debut album, then Blues Alley and J Mood, also Black Codes of the Underground, are very influenced by Miles Davis, in tone, phrasing and feel. That’s a great compliment to Miles.
We could say that Wynton is influenced by Miles, Clifford Brown and Freddie Hubbard, which are dominant influences for most jazz trumpeters.
Wynton playing in Japan with Santana also sounds a lot like Miles.
I think they both knew that there was this passing of the torch going on and manipulated by the records companies and music industry.
I share my birthday with Miles Davis 🖤😎
Cool. I share my birthday with French Composer Eric Satie.
when i speak of my birth place, i always mention Chuck Berry and Miles Davis ... , that was Saint Louis , Mo.. so, i " expand " that a little. i also include Mark Twain and President Grant. I am proud of all of these people.
While I didn't care for Miles newer stuff, I think he was polite and correct in his assessment of Wynton. He plays like an A-student but there is nothing original about his playing. You don't need to pioneer a new genre to be different. You could distinguish your self by developing a musical personality (not clothes or showmanship). Clifford Brown had it, so did Charlie Shavers, but not Wynton IMO.
I think the music industry createad this so called riff. Some people thought that it was some sort of rival between Miles and Wynton . In honesty Miles admire Wynton but he did not like how CBS records and the vice pressident of CBS jazz..Dr. George Butler was always trying to pair them up. Plus Miles was not feeling what Wynton was doing musically. As Miles said in several interviews that was the past style of music or as he said boring shit. Miles was digging the style of Wallace Roney..his swagger as Miles would often speak about that turn Miles on. He passed his trumpet to Wallace which.many people thought that was him turning his noise up to Wynton. He dug Branford ...very interesting.
@victormarshall9765 ...Roney sounded a lot like Davis. Gillespie was better, PERIOD!!!
Miles is for ever.......the ultimate artist genius. wynton on the other end is a very good musician.
The AI (artificial intelligence) narration needs to be tweaked. The constant mispronunciation of East St. Louis coupled with other notable errors are red flags a robot is doing the narration...or so it appears. Still, it's a pretty good look into the early developments of a legend. imho
Ok, I know just a little bout this. Davis respected the Marsalis clan, but considered them too regimented in their approach. He felt they were trying to define jazz by wrapping it up in a tight little set of definitions, at a moment when he himself was mostly done with swing and bebop and ‘cool’ and all the other standard jazz forms that he had pioneered and was exploring the fusion of his modal approach with rock and pop. He considered what he was doing to be jazz, while the Marsalis clan considered it to be something else. Something too far outside the traditions of acoustic jazz.
Hence one of his early meetings with Wynton after Wynton had become something of a jazz superstar: “here come the police”.
Miles Davis was an abusive A hole. I have this information from several older men who were musicians in New York and knew him personally. They’re gone now too but their stories are clear. A great musician. A bully, a person not concerned about using his power to get his way or worried about hurting people who were in his way. Word is Frank Sinatra was a similar character. It’s really sad that these people get turned into heroes in every way when all they really were was good at music.
It’s OK to appreciate Miles Davis’s music but also think he was a dick. But if you do, there’s very little chance you’re going to love it like it’s God‘s gift to earth. You’re gonna know how selfish he was and even his best songs are just gonna seem a little bit less awesome
i like your comment " a genius and also a " dick " . " i do not know why people want to confuse geniuses with being average " nice " or even " good " people. in contrast , i think the average person " nice " person is in no way good at all. most nice people are just sly a**holes. believe it.
I love them both ,however I lean more towards Miles Davis ,but the Marsalis album Black Codes is a true classic .Miles is just in another league in my opinion .👍🏿
Mile's did not announce tunes in the 40s. When 🐦 Bird and. Dizzy did 2and 1½hr sets with long breaks half hr, 45 min to check out radio broadcasts and other clubs Miles played 45 min then 15 minutes break for restroom the format used after that. He never turned his back on audiences he Conducted the band like in classical orchestras. Sad that musicians input are not sought for interviews after an artist has gone
Miles said, about Wynton...." he's precise". Wow, what a scathing criticism. Miles changed the sound of trumpet, but always seemed sloppy. He always cracks notes.
This presentation is bizarre. Photos don't sync. For example: At nine years of age which was accompanied by a photo of Miles at maybe in his late teens or twenties.
Most of you don't anything about Miles Davis, PERIOD!!! There were trumpeters that would blow Miles right off the stage, and it's documented!
@@brucescott4261 Ma'am, this is a Wendy's.
This is typical for fully AI generated content.
It's hard to believe he had sickle cell disease and completely and thoroughly abused his body, his whole life, and still lived to be 65. Was skinny as a rail and diabetic. There was no shortage of women who tried to help him, just as women do.
😢😢 people are always scared to tell the truth,,I know jazz,,
Miles played,,but he was far from the Best,, didn't listen to miles,, MENTAL HEALTH
I Totally agree.... Ignorant people always quote Miles... So F.... tiring !
This video wus fire🔥 🔥 🔥
Ok, don’t blame him around, no scoop we know miles relationships were difficult.
Charles Mingus said of the Miles of Bitches Brew and after: What Miles is doing now is BULLSHIT!
Poor Chas, that he just couldn't get it. But Mingus was of his own time, and wasn't reaching into the future like Davis did. 'proof' of this is the huge net that the musicians who played with / cut new teeth under Miles and went on to invent their own. The list is long ... .. Chick Corea, Wayne Shorter, John McLaughlin, Herbie Hancock . . . . Mingus' reach into the future from his time to now *through the musicians who kept the music going then, and keep the music going now* is not recognizable.
@@jackdolphy8965 What sort of meaningless blablah is this? Do you have a working mind?
@GeoCoppens ...Mingus was right!
@brucescott4261 I t v imk that Mingus was right... to an extent.Miles tried different things that other musicians didn't try.Some worked, some didn't.When all is said and done, who cares?
@@jackdolphy8965 ...Nonsense!!!
I had a friend that was a fantastic jazz virtuoso. Sometimes on the weekends a trumpet player friend of his would get up and play with him and throw in a few trumpet solos. He was good, but played too “military style”. It wasn’t a diss, it was true. I think this relates
Marsalis said he liked dizzy Gillespie better than miles
How often has Manchester City benefitted from referee decisions, that is, compared to their fellow competitors. Everton vs Rodri hand, Liverpool vs Doku chest stamp on Macca, etc. Because they've even cheated Fairplay rules and are still adamant that they are innocent and not showing any remorse, I don't even recognize their achievements since 2014.
Why is it necessary to overlay phony dust and streaks to portray authenticity and historic believability? Miles would shake his head for at least this aspect I suspect.
I read Miles' autobiography and he stated that one of the reasons he wasn't fond of Wynton was his openly public negative criticism of his brother, Branford. He found it deeply disrespectful.
I've never met anyone that ever described being moved, in love with, or surprised or upset or angry or sad or whatever from listening to Marsalis, not naming him as a favourite musician or horn player. He somehow managed the trick of not transmitting the slightest emotion ever through his instrument. He was also insufferably wound up, precious, full of his own talent, and just plain boring.
I have been delighted by other musicians that weren't 'emotional' players or writers, and who were very technique orientated but who were fascinating and moving and exciting because of this sheer technical virtuosity, WM doesn't even succeed on this front.
I've seen so many Jazz musicians over the years, and have never had bad words or feelings towards any of them, whether I enjoyed their music much or not, but somehow Marsalis managed to personify every single possible irritating and infuriating quality a professional musician could have, all rolled into one person. I'm not saying he was evil, an a-hole, or anything else negative in that way, that's none of my business. I am saying that his music and comportment have always been incredibly unappealing for someone who gained so much fame and success.
I did have the unfortunate opportunity to meet him and his band when they played the Rising Sun in Montreal in the '80s, you could tell his band was pretty miserable and that their leader sucked the joy from everything. Branford was pretty chill and cool, on the other hand, and while far from a favorite of mine, at least played with some passion and adventurousness.
You're a long-winded fool.
As a listener, the best musicians are the ones who give you the best listening pleasure. As far as trumpet players are concerned, the ones I enjoyed most were Clifford Brown and Blue Mitchell simply on the basis of their tonal quality, swing and melodic content. Lester Young's philosophy was 'does it tell a story'. Both those great players did to me.
Please, please, please! Give me Lee Roy Brown. Can you dig it?
Marsalis had the balls to interrupt a gig in Europe and walk up on stage and tell Miles that he wanted to play with him right there. Bad idea. Miles advised Marsalis to leave. He also doesnt have thecreative chops to be a great jazz player so he invents gigs like the big band schtick at Juliard. He is technically pretty good but thats it
Both jazzicians had gotten scholarships to New York's Juilliard School of Music; both quitted, reportedly, within one year of - - - of classical tutelage, not Jazz - hence their premature departure, and some.😢😮😅.
That's straight, BS. You might not like Wynton Marsalis, but you can't ever say Wynton does not have creative chops to be a jazz musician. Wynton is a virtuoso.
You nailed it with your last sentence!
It would of been hilarious to see Wynton to try to play with Ornette Coleman.
It would seem that the prince estate and Netflix. Are having the same challenges as Miles Davis estate. Although there was a good movie called “Miles Ahead“ starring Don Cheadle as well as co-written by Don Cheadle. I wonder if they’ll ever make the Marvin Gaye bio pic. Or do a great documentary on Marvin Gaye. Although I doubt it. Hopefully Stevie Wonder can figure out a way to do a great documentary on himself. Before he passes away.
Miles saying “Wynton is a good trumpet player but he doesn’t have anything extra” is Miles calling it like Miles does. That’s not “hating” or “detesting” anybody. It’s his unvarnished opinion.
Wynton ripped on Miles too, big time. That’s his prerogative.
Miles Davis changed the entire face of jazz music. More than once. Recorded material and live performances that spanned decades. Entire eras.
Wynton Marsalis is a technically accomplished musician, no question. What’s your favorite Wynton Marsalis composition? 😎
Come on, you couldn't record this with your own voice? Why continue to perpetuate this AI mess? If you're going to use AI, at least say you're using AI...
This is one of the most insightful comments here!
I met Wynton in Salt Lake City and we played a song together
Wynton's playing, plenty good, is old-fashioned, not much more modern than Louis Armstrong's. He has tone and control but never plays "outside," seldom ventures far from the melody and predictable variations on the theme. FAR from Miles's approach. Easy to see why he didn't move Miles.
“When Wynton was about to go on stage…” Insert footage of Miles in the late 1960s. This video has AI written all over it.
Contrary to what a select group of jazz fans and 'the critics' may say, Miles Davis is over-rated and is largely forgotten most people today. As for Wynton Marsalis, I heard him when he first appeared, and I said at the time that he had no 'stage presence' but was a very capable musician. I still much prefer the likes of Harry James, Bunny Berigan, Billy Butterfield, and Joe Graves.
I really don’t like the use of the word hate in any of these post. Too strong of an emotion and I don’t think it’s ever appropriate to use or lead with. The reality of it all is we at times really don’t like this person or that person and that’s it! Stop using this word to get people’s attention!
Don Cheadle played Davis in a movie.
@ArchieThomas3seesea ...That so-called bio-pic stinks!
Alcohol drugs is going to shipwreck your mind and soul .That police encounter was bad enough. I like both trumpeters ,miles had issues with demons, when you into drugs and booze it interferes with love and women.Conflicts was part of his life.Heroin back then now worst stuff to do you in . leave it all alone and you will do better in life. Many people loved Miles .I preferred his Coltrane period. Milestones etc RIP
miles was such a genius and even his comment about " black and white " musicians is spot on. " white musicians tend to lag behind the beat, ... i don't know why. " a genius can see what is right in front of their eyes and accurately describe it - no more no less.
Wynton looks like he's a bit snobby...like he's too precise
Miles knew Wynton was coming up and on his way. Wynton wasn't just a sure up and coming trumpet player. He knew that young man was going to break through and be a great player.
The fake vintage additional effects looks silly.
"Truly hated him more than anyone" Why the hyperbole?
Just don’t walk on and into another musician’s gig uninvited. Miles told him to ‘F O’ and quite rightly. He may have even said ‘get your fat face of my stage’ as I would have, for example.
No read his book. Steve Miller was his most hated
I hadn't planned to comment, but I seriously need to explain the explainable. Miles and wynton had 2 different roles to play in historical context. Miles' role was to create. Wynton's role is to preserve everything created before him. Wynton's role is also that of a reviver of that that came before him. Miles was brilliant and Wynton is brilliant. If not for wynton marcellus, jazz would have been exploited and destroyed. Because African Americans created jazz, the white powers that be ,wanted and want to destroy the music. And also the brilliance and genuis of the musicians. Wynton was groomed and educated by his father to do something that otherwise wouldn't be done. Wynton took on the responsibility of permanently infusing jazz into the American culture, thereby securing jazz as the only culturally dignified music created in America. The musicians taken under wynton's wing have become genius composers and performers. The Arabic word "mujeddid" means one who revives and renews. I call wynton the mujeddid of jazz. Because that's the role that he plays. Everything wynton does in music is an instruction to his students and followers of his works. Wynton brought into jazz a philosophy and conceptualization that is irrefutable. In fact he has done that for all genres of music created by African Americans, especially blues. There's much to say about miles and wynton, but I implore that whoever reads my comments to research the chronological life and progressions of these 2 great musicians. I've had the honor and privilege of meeting and conversating with wynton privately in his dressing room before he was nationally known and recognized worldwide. But I didn't have that honor with miles, even though I have studied miles since I was a child in the middle 1950s around 5 yrs old. Miles, Dizzy, Bird, trane and all the others and my uncle trumpet player, inspired me to aspire since that young age to be a jazz musician. In 1st grade we were given the choice of string instruments, I chose bass and I didn't want the bow that came with it 😅. I wanted to play jazz. In my teens I started playing saxophone. And played trumpet and baritone horn in grade school and college. All along in my teens, I played night clubs in jazz and r&b. So I'm not just breathing into the wind with these comments and commentary. By the way, I'm 72yrs old as I write these comments. And friends with some greats. Thanks for reading.
People are not allowed to be people and express their life experiences! "Just shut up and Play" comes to mind! This was more about the troubles of a great composer than it was about the musical legacies! Black people are always under the most server microscope and will/can only be accepted when living and revealing a certain way of life. And who has passed this test? Absolutely no one!
Miles is right, Wynton is the most technically accomplished trumpet player in at least 150yrs but that doesnt make him the best musician/creative...
Ellis really did a number on that boi...
I read in Downbeat Magazine that Miles even smacked a musician or two because he had been a boxer.
I think the Marsalis stuff especially the clickbait headline is exaggerated. That said, the idea of insinuating yourself on a Miles set!! What was Marsalis thinking. Only Bird could have done without causing offense.
A parallel tale. Lee Konitz, by then a grand legend of improvised music, was initially wary, following a proposal, of playing with Brad Mehldau, the next big piano sensation. Konitz never liked showboating. He was notoriously fussy about pianists. But Mehldau proved sensitive to the older statesman’s way of playing. They recorded two lovely albums (with Haden and Motian). Miles hated showboating. Again, for Miles, only Bird could showboat and get away with it. And Bird rarely showed off. Rather he had a sense of humour that he could effortlessly convey musically.
I’m not a great fan of virtuosic pomp.
Miles détestait beaucoup de monde: Albert Ayler, Ornette Coleman, Winton Marsalis etc.
lose the background music....it i annoying
The fake dirt on the fake film is almost as unfortunate as the AI narration.
You have to give Bird a lot of credit for seeing the potential of Miles. Davis could barely get thru the heads of Bird's bebop repertoire at the time (Donna Lee comes to mind!), never mind his plodding thru the changes. Bird would have been proud to have seen Davis' career over the next ten years had he lived.
Shame the pictures don't match the commentary. Interesting though.